#indiewebcamp 2014-02-25

2014-02-25 UTC
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tantek
not everything is a format or protocol
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tantek
they don't need to all fall under
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aaronpk
no, but I want to put those three in a list
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KartikPrabhu
how about a common parsing/presentation algorithms?
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KartikPrabhu
"a list of common"
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KartikPrabhu
might be easier for new comers to find them
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aaronpk
i'm gonna start with /algorithm and anybody is free to rename that
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aaronpk
just wanna close these tabs
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tantek
aaronpk - building-blocks is good enough
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tantek
algorithm overlaps though
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tantek
each protocol and format typically has some associated algorithms, often on the same page
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tantek
aaronpk - why do you want to put them in a list?
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tantek
I think it's important for a list to have a purpose
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tantek
rather than just collecting similar things
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tantek
collecting similar things = use a tag/category
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aaronpk
it goes along with the theme of 50% of the words in this email I'm writing being links to wiki pages
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tantek
lists should have an express purpose
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tantek
e.g. IndieMark is a list
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tantek
very ordered
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tantek
each one of those things you named is a building-block
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tantek
which I think is a good enough collection
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tantek
we don't need a new term
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tantek
or rather, what do we gain by distinguishing "algorithms" from "building blocks" ?
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aaronpk
but they are all the same kind of building block, and they are different from building blocks like permalinks and h-entry
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tantek
they're not really
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caseorganic
I like the idea of using a starfleet-like pip system for indiemark
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tantek
by themselves algorithms are kind of abstract
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tantek
I actually really dislike talking about algorithms outside of use-cases / user-features
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tantek
because that tends to go down the (dark) path of programmer-centric thinking, and loses sight of user-centric thinking
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aaronpk
that's fine, but all of those pages I linked specifically say they are algorithms
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aaronpk
"How to determine authorship of a post on a page - AKA the Authorship Algorithm"
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tantek
that's probably my fault for falling into a particular writing pattern (I think I may have written those/that)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek, aaronpk: I think for new comers it is sort of hard to find the already-used algorithms because you sort of have to know where to look or what terms to search. It would be useful to have a list of implemented/suggested algorithms
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - you just made my case
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tantek
for why talking about algorithms is bad
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tantek
no one should be looking for list of implemented/suggested algorithms
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aaronpk
omg i don't care what it's called but these 4 things are unique and I want to put them somewhere
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tantek
they should be looking for a list of implemented/suggested user/site *features*
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tantek
aaronpk - but you do realize that clustering them could actually give them a bad focus right?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu just inadvertently made my point
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KartikPrabhu
did not intend to do that :P
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tantek
right, it's part of default developer thinking
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tantek
KartikPrabhu, the list of implemented/suggested user/site *features* is IndieMark
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aaronpk
how to: 1) determine the author of a post. 2) determine the canonical URL of a post. 3) determine the page name. 4) find post info to display a post as a comment
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aaronpk
i'm going to put them all under post then
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tantek
aaronpk - that's better
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: but unless I asked you I wouldn't know that I should look at IndieMark page
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tantek
so we need to make that more discoverable then
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - what is it you were looking for?
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aaronpk
i'm still not sold on the current iteration of indiemark. I feel like each incremental step needs to provide immediate benefit to the person doing it otherwise they have no incentive to do so other than to get points
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KartikPrabhu
What kind of things people have done/want to do on the indieweb? This was before I stumbled upon IndieMark accidently.
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tantek
aaronpk - those two are incongruous statements
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tantek
each incremental step *does* provide benefit to the person doing it!
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tantek
that's part of what each step has been based on
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KartikPrabhu
also how have they done/implemeted something? Am I doing it correctly in some sense etc...
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tantek
it's why I've created "Why" sections for each step
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tantek
each module/ building block
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tantek
aaronpk, right at the top of the page: "Levels in general are ordered roughly by both immediate practicality to the indieweb site owner (somewhat by community interop), and somewhat by incremental difficulty. "
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tantek
so yes, "immediate practicality to the indieweb site owner" is key
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tantek
everything in indiemark is provides immediate benefit to the person doing it
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aaronpk
hm, there were some parts that didn't seem to reflect that
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tantek
name specifics
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aaronpk
trying to remmeber
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@ShaneHudson
@garyvee If it works, I would recommend looking into POSSE (#indieweb) http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE basically posting on your site first
(twitter.com/_/status/438111492056313856)
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tantek
because the page obviously provides the overall focus that you ask for
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aaronpk
actually here's one, ironically, indieauth
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tantek
going to add to the faq also
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tantek
indieauth helps you sign into IndieWebCamp
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aaronpk
it's easy, but there isn't actually any benefit until much later, other than adding yourself to the wiki
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aaronpk
but if you don't care about the wiki, it's not useful
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tantek
if you don't care about publishing on the web, then indiewebcamp is not useful
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tantek
the "if you don't care about" line of reasoning is flawed
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aaronpk
but you can publish on the web and never use the wiki
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tantek
sure, and you can publish on the web and never interact with anyone else either
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aaronpk
but indieauth is also not a prerequisite for doing webmentions and comments
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tantek
the point is that indiewebcamp is not a zero-value community
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tantek
it has principles and commonalities
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tantek
like having a common area to discuss this stuff
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tantek
and that's IRC+wiki
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tantek
otherwise why bother with the community?
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tantek
so no, I don't buy the " if you don't care about the wiki"
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tantek
if you don't care about the wiki or IRC then you're essentially saying you don't care about the community
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aaronpk
ok maybe that's not the right way to put it then
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tantek
and frankly, I'm ok with having those folks ignore indiewebcamp
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tantek
because if they don't care about community, good luck to them and their lone inventor in the garage attitude to getting what they want working
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tantek
if you want I can add that to the FAQ
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tantek
I'm totally ok with turning-off people who are anti-community as a first level focusing filter
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aaronpk
my point is that setting up indieauth, while a good thing to encourage interaction with the community, doesn't lead to any further benefit to one's own site until much later (like when using micropub, or for private posts)
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tantek
aaronpk - well there's the obvious one. SEO from indiewebcamp :P
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tantek
(from your User: page linking to your site)
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tantek
but I didn't think that we needed to state that explicitly :P
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tantek
and what about linking to your site from the IRC logs automatically? (when you add yourself to irc-people)
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tantek
sounds like I do need to add these to an FAQ
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tantek
because honestly I thought these were all totally obvious but I guess not
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+548) "/* FAQ */ What is omitted, and what to do about it"
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snarfed.org
edited /2014/SF (-39) "/* Sponsor */"
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tantek.com
edited /2014/SF (+319) "/* Help Out */ more sponsorship slots"
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snarfed.org
edited /2014/SF (+59) "/* Sponsor */"
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pdurbin
aaronpk: what you're saying makes sense to me... about immediate benefit to the user. makes sense that owning your own domain is #1. not quite as much sense that setting up indieauth to be able to log into the wiki as #2
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pdurbin
handy link for anyone who wants to see the list: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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tantek
pdurbin the importance of community, and community participation cannot be understated.
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tantek
er, overstated?
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pdurbin
well, maybe #2 should be joining this channel ;) ... that's how I participate... try to anyway
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tantek
pdurbin - yes, it's close to #2 of Getting Started
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tantek
but Getting Started is different from IndieMark
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tantek
IndieMark measures the indiewebness of a site
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tantek
and what makes a site "indieweb" is an emerging / evolving definition
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tantek
that is roughly defined logically, and roughly defined by how people here vote with their time / personal site
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tantek
so the more people that implement something on their own site, the more importance it gains as part of indiemark
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tantek
that's the semi-democratic nature of IndieMark
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tantek
everyone gets to "vote" for IndieMark features by deploying them on their own site
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tantek.com
edited /IndieAuth (+554) "add explicit IndieWeb Examples and a quick Why section"
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pdurbin
so the indiewebness of a site should be measured by the the popularity of the features that you've implemented? by the fact that you've implemented many of the same common features other indieweb site have implemented?
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tantek.com
created /community (+335) "stub"
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tantek
pdurbin your question doesn't make sense and/or sounds tautological ;)
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pdurbin
tantek: heh. sorry, I'm just trying to understand your comment about democracy and votes
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@xtof_fr
@jglovier kudos Joel. Amazing blog theme. It will really help me to learn CSS & future #indieweb tweaks. Bravo ! http://christopheducamp.com/2014/02/25/nouveau-template-jekyll-par-joel-glovier/
(twitter.com/_/status/438128210266845184)
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pdurbin
are there any metrics on these "votes"? the number of sites that have implemented feature x?
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pdurbin
if so, it'd be interesting to see them in tabular format, an html table in the wiki or a spreadsheet or whatever
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@isaagest
https://indieauth.com Annotations: IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID, but simp...
(twitter.com/_/status/438129001614565377)
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tantek
pdurbin - the only metrics are the number of example in each features' "IndieWeb Examples" section
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tantek
number of examples*
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tantek
pdurbin - too hard to maintain tabular stuff like that
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tantek
I mean, you're welcome to try
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tantek
but a few have tried and it's already out of date on the wiki
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tantek
also tables are not very "responsive" in the responsive design sense, so again, it's not that useful
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pdurbin
well, it could come to me as JSON. I'm mostly just interested in the numbers
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pdurbin
tantek: the table is very interesting. thanks
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tantek
it seems interesting, but it's out of date / inaccurate
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tantek
don't be fooled by the presentation
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tantek.com
edited /indieweb-implementations (+529) "yeah, this page is obsolete, big warning at the top."
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tantek
there we go, nice bright blinding banner at the top
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pdurbin
ouch. yellow
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tantek
there we go, captured the problems intrinsic to that page to hopefully avoid having to revisit this in the future
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tantek
aaronpk, FYI, documented this explicitly: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth#Why
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tantek
nitot, seriously, please check your IRC client
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@serduno
Fourth test - this is just a test, again…. aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg ... #Indieweb #Sorry #Testing http://du.no/e
(twitter.com/_/status/438135392228098048)
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tantek
" what = personal interweb thingie " :)
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KartikPrabhu
I had to set both nitot and nitot_ to ignore on my IRC client.
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aaronpk
Ok so it took 18 lines to add photo posting to my micropub endpoint. I think we're on to something.
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tantek
um wow
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tantek
very nicely done
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tantek.com
edited /2014/SF (+37) "/* Guest List */ start counting"
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aaronpk
Remember how much time I spent on photo posts yesterday? That was all UI work. Turns out the protocol/mechanics are not the hard part.
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tantek
bingo
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tantek
that's probably the most important lesson for any/every developer to learn
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tantek
because most devs tend to focus 99% of time on the protocol/mechanics and 1% on the UI
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tantek
(time debating, designing, building etc.)
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tantek
ok time to start getting people signed up for IndieWebCampSF now that we have a venue and sponsors are starting to come in
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aaronpk
Man, nitot, seriously
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aaronpk
I feel bad, but should I kickban him or something?
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tantek
aaronpk, I just emailed him and cc'd you
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aaronpk
So that's a "yes"?
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tantek
no that's a give him a chance to fix his client
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aaronpk
k. He's in France right? So +8 hours from here?
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tantek
I feel bad because it was a challenge to get him on
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tantek
hopefully he'll follow-up
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tantek
oh shoot
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tantek
ok kickban
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tantek
more in email
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aaronpk
Ah yea. He was working with xtof on his site recently right?
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tantek
right standblog.org
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aaronpk
What? Ok one sec
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tantek
email sent. go for it.
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aaronpk
First time I've done that :)
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willnorris.com
edited /2014/SF (+356) "/* Guest List */"
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@isaac
RT @isaagest: https://indieauth.com Annotations: IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID,…
(twitter.com/_/status/438160302123646977)
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@kevinmarks
RT @isaagest: https://indieauth.com Annotations: IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID,…
(twitter.com/_/status/438166180621062144)
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@kevinmarks
@amywhiggins @SlideShare because @aboutdotme is a poor substitute for a Web domain you control yourself #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/438179592973455360)
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snarfed
hey KartikPrabhu, how's your beautifulsoup mf2py fork? stable enough to start using?
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: I think so. https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py though I still have to incorporate it myself on my website.
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KartikPrabhu
that is more due to lack of time than stability of code
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snarfed
great! i'll try it out
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snarfed
heh, i know the feeling
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KartikPrabhu
the logic is mainly the same as tommorris's mf2py. he might merge them if he feels so inclined
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onebigfluke.com
edited /2014/SF (+513) "Attending"
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: let me know if any changes to the mf2py code are of immediate use to you. I'll add those first
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snarfed
thanks! will do
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tantek.com
edited /2014/SF (+0) "/* Guest List */ counts"
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tommorris
KartikPrabhu: I will look at your pull request at some point soon. promise. :)
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bret
I just had an interesting realization the other day. tantek was talking about how when technarati indexed the html of blogs, quality of the data shot way up. I realized today that all the competent feed readers today HAVE to implement some kind of full text extraction (via readability or some other method) in order to combat low quality feeds
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bret
its the same situation today
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bret
and readability is based on microformats no less
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barnabywalters
bret: that makes a lot of sense, and is a good way to frame microformats evangelism to feedreader builders
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barnabywalters
“you’re already parsing HTML, this technology makes it way easier”
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barnabywalters
which leads nicely onto “you’re already getting all the data you show to users from HTML, why bother with RSS any more?”
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cweiske
because it's easier to fetch a single file that contains all data
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cweiske
instead of having to fetch the index page and then every detail page separately
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cweiske
is there a document describing the quality improvements due to html parsing?
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Jeena
I'm a feedreader builder, what could I use microformats for with Atom feeds?
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barnabywalters
many ATOM feeds don’t contain all of the data in one file
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Jeena
ah you mean because dropping the atom/rss ok I see
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Jeena
I don't subscribe to those feeds, because it is a waste of time
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barnabywalters
Jeena: when you say “you” do you mean your software or you personally as a user?
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Jeena
I personally as a user
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barnabywalters
so that’s an example of RSS/ATOM’s hiddenness allowing them to be irrelevant to humans
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barnabywalters
it’s the same reason that parsing twitter.com’s HTML often gives you better quality results than using their API
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barnabywalters
e.g. the API has no reliable way of getting all replies to a tweet, whereas they can be parsed easily out of the tweet permalink page
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cweiske
so this is an argument against APIs and for using microformats?
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Jeena
but I agree with cweiske, with a atom/rss feed you do one http request every hour or something and you get all the new stuff, with the content and with all the changes. Parsing the HTML index page + every single of the linked articles takes so much more time, just for the feed reader
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cweiske
barnabywalters, now replace microformats with html and api with microformats
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barnabywalters
Jeena: but you *don’t* get all the new stuff, as you just pointed out
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Jeena
only if the provider shortens the content, but most of them don't do that
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cweiske
the next problem will be that the html is missing microformat markup, instead of the api missing data
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cweiske
and you're back at the beginning
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Jeena
yeah but that is another level and is just the chicken and egg problem
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cweiske
it's still the same problem
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Jeena
so by advocating microformats this problem can be solved in the future
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cweiske
by fixing the API, this probem can be solved in the future
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cweiske
where is the difference?
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Jeena
yeah good point
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barnabywalters
cweiske: but if the data is within the HTML the barrier to making it parseable is tiny, and it’s much more likely that people will point out the problem because the feedback loops involved with using the data are smaller
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cweiske
the barrier to fixing the api is at the same level as fixing the html
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cweiske
and why should people be more likely to point out issues with microformat markup than issues with the API?
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cweiske
microformats are an API
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barnabywalters
cweiske: the information is more likely to be in the HTML in the first place because it needs to be there because humans want to see it there (cases in point: tweet replies, feed pagination links)
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cweiske
s/an/another/
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Loqi
cweiske meant to say: microformats are another API
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cweiske
the information is there, but it will not be marked up
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barnabywalters
and as the data is already in the HTML the barrier to making it parseable is tiny, i.e. adding a single classname
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barnabywalters
but these questions don’t get asked of RSS/ATOM because it’s barely human-visible
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cweiske
internally, the data are available to the API also
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barnabywalters
cweiske: see above
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bret
A document that shows quality improvements? How about like every modern feed reader
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bret
newsblur, feedbin, reeder are a few that do this
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barnabywalters
I’m sure I’ve read blog posts about this before
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barnabywalters
maybe it would be worth adding some citations to http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#Criticism
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bret
cweiske does have a point about the index page retreival
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bret
h-atom had the polling issue
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bret
iirc where you have to get the whole document in order to see if something was updated
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barnabywalters
yeah, in theory that is handled by something like PuSH but it hasn’t been a high enough priority (not enough visible value) for people to implement yet
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bret
if we were to iterate on the rss/atom feed model, could we do push+html parsing only? fall back to rss if the subscription fails
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barnabywalters
the situation could also be improved by people adding dt-updated to feed index pages
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barnabywalters
of course, in the case of notes, and often for articles, the whole content *is* shown in the index
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barnabywalters
so maybe the problem doesn’t actually exist
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barnabywalters
and you do only have to parse the index page
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barnabywalters
bret: exactly! existing PuSH hubs push HTML content to you on updates
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barnabywalters
so that could be parsed for updated information
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barnabywalters
without having to fetch or poll it
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barnabywalters
with Superfeedr IIRC you can also subscribe to HTML pages which don’t explicitly list it as their hub
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barnabywalters
so updates might not be as timely, but you the need for polling is pushed to a supporting service
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waterpigs.co.uk
created /ATOM (+17) "redirected"
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bret
a possible issue, rss/atom have this too, is that some publishers might intentionally botch the uF so that parsing only brings in some of the content
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bret
and append 'click here to see the rest'
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bret
the html parsing in readers is a way to combat this
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barnabywalters
bret: that’s pointing to a separate issue — publishers wanting to get hits to their site
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barnabywalters
hits, to HTML PAGES on their sites
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barnabywalters
readers should work TOWARD this goal instead of against it
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bret
i'm assuming an additional layer of agressive parsing would be needed in a practical reader application
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bret
barnabywalters: news blur will actually show you the page inside the reader. I guess I see what you are saying
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bret
but this ignores the needs of offline readers on small devices
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bret
and ignores the fact that publishers that oh so need your hit on a mobile connection often send you 10Mb of javascript analytics.. nothanks
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barnabywalters
I’d say that’s a separate, but very valid, problem
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bret
yeah, i agree, im getting kinda mixed up here
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Jeena
I wrote a feedreader for Firefox OS. How would PuSH work with that?
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barnabywalters
that is, creating formats and readers which are worth enough to publishers to implement support for is a separate issue to publishers forcing crappy experiences on their readers
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bret
i think any kind of general purpose reader that 'just works' is going to be a battle no matter what
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bret
unless of course its just a web browser ;)
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bret
actually web browsers are a battle
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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bret
hey tantek
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barnabywalters
Jeena: PuSH is basically server-server, so you’d have to do something like set up a server which the app opens a web socket connection to, to which it forwards notifications received from a hub
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barnabywalters
morning tantek
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tantek
bret: "where you have to get the whole document in order to see if something was updated" <-- same problem with RSS/Atom
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Jeena
ah ok I see
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barnabywalters
just repeating the old HTML+microformats vs RSS/ATOM debate again
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Loqi
hehe
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tantek
barnabywalters are you collecting FAQs so we can dispense them with URLs?
#
tantek
rather than repeating the debate?
#
barnabywalters
tantek: working on it
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /feed (+177) "/* Criticism */ flattened, added link to brian’s stupid feed tricks document"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /RSS (-46) "/* Problems */ linked to feed#Criticism so we have RSS/ATOM criticism in one place"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /RSS (+0) "/* Problems */ capitalisation"
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tantek
BTW - I found that Atom is much BIGGER than HTML for the equivalent set of posts.
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tantek
like 2x
#
tantek
hence my Atom feed only has 3 items now, while my home page has 16.
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bret
oh yeah you ran out of BW
#
tantek
I posted about this a while ago
#
tantek
basically, XML formats are shit in general
#
tantek
overdesigned by people that don'
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bret
so much angle bracket
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tantek
t actually selfdogfood and live the pain
#
bret
much heierachy
#
tantek
both Atom and RSS are just very crappy inefficient subsets of HTML
#
tantek
Atom did introduce some better defined vocabulary for feed/entry-like things. So that was good at least.
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barnabywalters
tantek: I’d say they’re closer to being an unnecessary, inefficient wrapper for chunks of HTML rather than subsets
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Jeena
I think we all agree that HTML + microformats is much easier then different XML formats. What we don't quite seem to agree is the number of HTTP requests per hour to get all updates.
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tantek
Jeena - as if that's the #1 problem
#
tantek
come back to me when you've built an Indie Reader UI and posted screenshots
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tantek
"number of HTTP requests per hour" - **per hour** - are you kidding me?
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bret
tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-02-25/line/1393343711 thoughts? maybe this is already known, but this was a really concrete example for my own understanding
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tantek
that's as bad as the "but this means more work for the parser" arguments from programmers
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tantek
barnabywalters - while you're collecting criticism, here's another: http://tantek.com/2013/169/t5/rss-atom-not-rich-enough-social-web-osb2013
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barnabywalters
aw geez I was just making a comic about the shadow DOM and now you’ve got me in full-on wiki editing mode ;)
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Jeena
uhm not really, if you have 1000 people subscribing to your feed it is a http request every say 8 seconds with atom for everyone to check for updates. If you have a index site like mine with about 100 links and 1000 subscribers it is 27 HTTP requests per second just so everybody gets their feed reader to know that nothing has changed. This is kind of a huge change.
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Jeena
dt-updated on the index page would probably be able to cut through that
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tantek
barnabywalters as if we needed *another* comic about the shadow DOM?!? or wait, I mean meme.
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barnabywalters
tantek: well, it’s really about naming things. the shadow DOM is the punchline
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tantek
Jeena - there's plenty of data in the page to be more efficient than that
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bret
what is the tldr of shadowdom?
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tantek
bret - there isn't one.
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bret
p://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4UTAqE/
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bret
oops
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tantek
hahahaha
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tantek
nice barnabywalters
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barnabywalters
that spec is the stupidest + most obfuscated thing I’ve read for a long time. quite an accomplishment
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tantek
Jeena - for example, we have an h-feed draft
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tantek
and inside those there are h-entry elements with dt-updated / dt-published values - you can just check the most recent one of those
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tantek
and that's just off the top of my head
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tantek
Jeena, so don't talk to me about 1000 people subscribing and causing problems until it actually is. Because I don't believe it will be.
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tantek
or as we like to say, I call theoretical
#
tantek
also - I believe the actual answer is PuSH - supported on my site since 2010
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Jeena
I need to talk about it so I can find out about stuff you guys have been thinking about. I have never seen anything called h-feed
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Jeena
I'm not really trying to attac you guys, I'm just looking for answers :)
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bret
can you have h-recipies inside of an h-feed? Or does that need to be wrapped in a h-entry
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barnabywalters
bret: feed readers are only likely to treat things which are h-entries as posts in the feed
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barnabywalters
but it can just be both
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barnabywalters
that is, a post which is also a recipe
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bret
ok gtg bye
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barnabywalters
that way, readers which don’t understand h-recipe just treat it as a normal post, but more intelligent readers could alter presentation
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: bye
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Atom (+138) "added criticism link, tidied up summary"
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Jeena
was the h-feed reference intended to support the theoretical call because of the many HTTP requests? It looks to me like it mostly helps with adding information about the feed author and some metadata about the feed like name, url and photo
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /feed (+186) "/* Criticism */ added evanp’s osb2013 quote"
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tantek
Jeena - you want to support PuSH to reduce polling
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tantek
see the /PuSH page
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tantek
checks his h-feed support
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Jeena
yeah I need to read about that, doing it now
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barnabywalters
tantek: your newly-responsive homepage goes into mobile single-column mode on my 13" retina display
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tantek
and I'm writing about it, hopefully I can keep ahead of you Jeena ;)
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tantek
barnabywalters - depends on how narrow you make the window (as it should)
#
tantek
at 3/4 screen width I still see 2 cols on my 11" MBA
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barnabywalters
tantek: I am aware of how responsive design works ;)
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barnabywalters
tantek: still single-column in full screen firefox
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tantek
maybe check your zoom levels?
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tantek
WFM ;)
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barnabywalters
hm yes maybe I’m zoomed in
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barnabywalters
wow I was REALLY zoomed in — how did that happen?!
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barnabywalters
never realised before that there’s no UI element signifying zoomedness
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Jeena
what is a "Pub" in the context of "PuSH"?
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Loqi
a is held til the end of our block
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barnabywalters
Jeena: publish
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barnabywalters
as in pub/sub = publish/subscribe
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Jeena
it seems to be some kind of a server
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barnabywalters
a hub is a server which gets notified of new content by publishers and pushes the new content to subscribers
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barnabywalters
it also handles subscription creation and maintenance
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Jeena
so like you pinged technorati?
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Jeena
hm no ok
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barnabywalters
there’s a video here which explains it:
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tantek
ok, updated my h-feed just a little
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Jeena
thanks
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tantek.com
created /h-feed (+1365) "stub with how, why, indieweb examples"
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tantek
Jeena - there you go, just a bit more for you to read ;)
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Jeena
thanks
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tantek.com
edited /h-feed (+38) "see also uf h-feed"
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tantek
barnabywalters - now add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#IndieWeb_Examples
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Jeena
hehe barnabywalters the video was uhm hehe for non tech-people, but I think I start to understand. to implement PuSH I either can write my own Hub and handle all the stuff myself like subscription and push to everyone, or I could use http://pubsubhubbub.superfeedr.com/ as my Hub where I push only once and it takes care of the subscription and pushing to people?
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tantek
Jeena - or you can still use the Google test hub too
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tantek
but yeah superfeedr is great
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tantek
and julien51 (who is in charge of it) shows up here from time to time
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tantek
he's been to a few IndieWebCamps too - great guy
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Jeena
Hm that could be kind of fun to implement and test it with superfeedr first
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /feed (+147) "/* Criticism */ added size concerns + tantek citation"
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tantek.com
edited /reader (-30) "/* See Also */ h-feed, clean up a bit"
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tommorris
was just investigating the HTML/ATOM disparity - opened up the Atom feed in Firefox web inspector and it shows me an HTML document. ;)
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tommorris
Ah, it’s XHTML. converted using XSLT
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aaronpk
oh man xslt, I remember that. I tried doing a site with that in like 2001...
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tommorris
and the subscribe stuff is injected using JS
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tantek
hey aaronpk - Y U NO h-feed?
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tommorris
aaronpk: XSLT is still quite useful server-side
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aaronpk
has anybody made JSLT yet?
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aaronpk
tantek: uh because....something
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tantek.com
edited /h-feed (+139) "DRY replacement for RSS/Atom"
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tommorris
part of my geo infrastructure is XSLT.
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tantek
hmm - you too tommorris.org
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tommorris
because geonames XML result -> modified XML result -> JSON
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aaronpk
xslt generating a json doc?
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Jeena
is adding h-feed too
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aaronpk
oh I remember why I didn't add h-feed, cause I was only showing 3 notes on my home page
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barnabywalters
the only use cases of h-feed I’ve found so far have been: explicit naming of the feed, page-level author discovery and multiple feeds on a page
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aaronpk
now it makes sense that I show 10 notes in the primary content area of my hom epage
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tommorris
aaronpk: no, got a programmatic translation of XML to JSON.
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tommorris
but the nice thing about XSLT is you can set up multiple rules across multiple files
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barnabywalters
briansuda created a huge XSLT to turn hcard into VCARD
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: do you not have h-feed yet either?
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: I do have h-feed, mainly for author discovery
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tommorris
just published my half-finished geonaming transformation stuff - https://bitbucket.org/tommorris/fierce-geonamer/overview
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barnabywalters
but IMO that’s a separate thing to actually consuming feeds, i.e. at the moment there’s no reason for readers to demand h-feed markup over just having h-entries on the page
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tantek.com
edited /h-feed (+41) "/* Why */ authorship, multiple feeds"
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barnabywalters
my microformats -> ATOM converter just looks for all h-entries on the given URL
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aaronpk
ah that's a good reason
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aaronpk
other than that I don't really see the reason for it
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aaronpk
well you have to have some way to determine the author of the page you're subscribing too
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tantek
it's primarily for indie reader UI
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tantek
which I suppose we'll all discover as we buildi t
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aaronpk
I just encountered that when setting up my reader. I want the only input to be the URL, and it should find the author name and photo
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah, I'll likely add something to the authorship algorithm
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tantek
when you ask me good questions about it ;)
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Loqi
gives aaronpk the only input to be the URL
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tantek
It was sandeepshetty that convinced me to finally add h-feed because he was using it in his reader
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tantek.com
edited /h-feed (+157) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Barnaby Walters, not sure since when"
(view diff)
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tommorris
if sandeep is using it, I’ll roll it out. ;)
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barnabywalters
tantek: did sandeepshetty actually build a reader?
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barnabywalters
or do you mean his h-feed -> ATOM converter
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aaronpk
i'm still super sad that PuSH broke the simplicity of the original spec
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tantek
barnabywalters - I think he did?
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tantek
aaronpk - it did?
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aaronpk
whoa major lag?
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aaronpk
i can't tell what conversation is happening
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barnabywalters
tantek: http://h-reader.com (the domain his converter is at) is empty
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tantek
um "Matching handler function not found" ?
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tantek
what platform says that?
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barnabywalters
tantek: that’s sandeep’s minimal HTTP router’s default 404 message
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tantek
we're caught in an IRC reference / search / reference time loop
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aaronpk
ha yes
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tommorris
in terms of h-feed implementations, it might not be a bad idea to use tantek.com as a reference implementation
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tommorris
a reference for implementationr ather
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Jeena
so my list items of links to articles on the index page should also be marked up as h-entry isn't it?
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tantek
tommorris - well I'm not sure about that, I think barnabywalters's might be cleaner
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Jeena
the items lack h-card and e-content
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tantek
I'm still in the middle of redoing my "header" with h-card etc.
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tantek
re: APIs vs. microformats - APIs don't survive in archives. microformats do. as does HTML in genearl.
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tantek.com
edited /API (+400) "Fragility too"
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tantek.com
edited /microformats (+224) "Why not APIs - be explicit and make this reasoning more discoverable"
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tantek
barnabywalters, bret, Jeena please read http://indiewebcamp.com/API so you can refer cweiske to all those problems instead of having to restatement them next time he brings up APIs
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tantek.com
edited /microformats (+496) "/* FAQ */ Are microformats an API? No, just the info you might get back."
(view diff)
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Jeena
There is one thing about APIs though, and why they are so popular. If you can say that your startup offers an (REST/JSON) API then many people start listening, it is kind of a prestige thing. Hm I wonder, is there a microformats parser for the iPhone?
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tantek.com
edited /microformats (+35) "/* See Also */ microformats, micropub2"
(view diff)
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tantek
Jeena - it's because startup like to slap a TOS on access to information, API tokens etc.
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tantek
they're abusing developers
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tommorris
it’s also because of cargo cult development
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tommorris
everyone looks at twitter and says “oh, twitter are doing it, therefore we need to do it"
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tantek
Jeena, I refer you to tommorris's excellent rant: http://tommorris.org/posts/2452
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Jeena
haha cargo cult, that is the perfect way to describe it
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tommorris
The best thing about “RESTful APIs” is they fail to adhere to the principle of one-URI-per-thing
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tommorris
if you have “api” as part of your API URL, you are failing to REST. ;)
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tommorris
one important point of REST is that the method I navigate around your website matches the method by which I navigate around your API
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tommorris
if you’ve got documentation for your API, then it probably isn’t something I can follow-my-nose around
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Jeena
haha nice rant
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aaronpk
oh don't even get me started on "REST" apis
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tantek.com
edited /API (+996) "add FAQ with good tommorris answers"
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tantek.com
edited /API (+20) "/* Are RESTful APIs actually RESTful */ linky"
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tantek
thank you Jeena and tommorris - I've captured your questions and answers: http://indiewebcamp.com/API#FAQ
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tantek
aaronpk, oh, please do get started on "REST" APIs: http://indiewebcamp.com/API#Are_RESTful_APIs_actually_RESTful
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tantek.com
edited /API (+60) "/* Why are APIs so popular */ bold and link cargo cult development to WP article"
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tantek.com
edited /API (+32) "/* Why are APIs so popular */ more specific link"
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tommorris
the number of times I end up saying at work “well, let’s try implementing both approaches and then test them to see which works” is interesting. and the number of times people think that’s slightly mad rather than a pretty basic part of engineering is worrying.
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aaronpk_
whaa now there are two of me
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aaronpk
this is ridiculous. I see one thing tommorris said, and loqi saw a different thing in the logs.
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Loqi
who, me?
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tantek
I see like 7 lines from tommorris in a row
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aaronpk
I see one, loqi sees one.
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aaronpk
if we all connect to the same freenode server this will likely not be a problem
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tantek
yeah that's only the last of the 7
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tantek
let me see if it works if I quote tommorris
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tantek
tommorris: as for cargo cult software engineering: the fact that people would follow sites like Twitter or Facebook in their engineering decisions
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tantek
tommorris: people stopped using Rails because Twitter had switched away from it
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tantek
tommorris: or Google had switched away from using RDBMSes, so they just decided that RDBMSes were useless and switched to NoSQL or map-reduce
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tantek
tommorris: even though relational databases are pretty useful and have been since the 60s.
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tantek
tommorris: the number of times I end up saying at work “well, let’s try implementing both approaches and then test them to see which works” is interesting. and the number of times people think that’s slightly mad rather than a pretty basic part of engineering is worrying.
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bret
did microformats not exist when atom/rss was getting started? how come two of basically the same thing came out of those efforts?
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bret
i should read the wikipedia pages
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Loqi
it is probable
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tantek
RSS ~1999
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bret
ohhh never seen that
#
tantek
microformats started ~2004-2005
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tantek
dude, keep up ;)
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tommorris
and there were a few things before 1999 like Microsoft’s CDF
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tantek
bret, don't you check http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:RecentChanges every morning? ;)
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bret
I just found the all pages page the other day ;)
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tantek
tommorris see URL
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bret
tantek: my eyes glaze over when I look at mediawiki change logs
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tantek
bret - I just command-click the pages that changed since and check their histories
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bret
IRC logs = easier to read
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tantek
open in new tabs, read each one, close
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bret
but I miss stuff aparently
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tantek
yeah - too many wiki pages to look through all of them in IRC
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aaronpk
would be fun to make the recentchanges into an h-feed with h-entry so it can be subscribed to in a reader!
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tantek
I like the grouping in RecentChanges
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tantek
go there, click the Recent changes tab
#
tantek
then under Advanced options
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tantek
[x] Use enhanced recent changes
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tantek
is niz
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willnorris
bret: but they have fundamentally different approaches anyway... an alternate machine readable format (rss/atom) vs embedding machine readable tags into the existing format (microformats). So even if the timeline were different, I would suspect both would have emerged... they just come from different schools of thought (my thoughts anyway)
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tommorris
plumbing in my geonamer code seems to be working swimmingly. will write it up shortly.
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aaronpk
oh hey that is nice
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tantek
willnorris - well, I can tell you that from my perspective, the drive to seriously pursue microformats came from *trying* to make the XML-stack work at W3C in the early 2000s, realizing that the whole thing was a massive enterprise house of cards, and said screw it, how simple can we make this
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tantek
and as part of that I realized all the side URLs / side files problem
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bret
tantek: by grouping, do you mean enhanced recent changes? I dont see a grouping option
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willnorris
ah, okay... so it really was a response to the complexity of having different formats? In that case, perhaps it was a necessary predecessor to prove that the model doesn't work as well
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tantek
yes bret
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tommorris
is sorta XMLing and XSLTing but for a sorta sensible reason. ;)
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tantek
willnorris, well a whole lot of supposedly smart people and companies had bought into the XML future
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bret
ohhh much nicer
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tantek
so I was like ok, let's see if we can make this work
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tantek
uncovered enough problems that I realized, no they're not actually that smart. or rather, they're more talkers than builders.
#
tantek
this was in my IE5/Mac browser implementation days
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tantek
so now any tech that is proposed/designed by talkers I pretty much dismiss on the spot
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tommorris
RDF has the talkers problem. Only the talking is done in academic papers. ;)
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tantek
so no, not about complexity. more about supposedly smart people making up a bunch of crap.
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tommorris
The advantage of talking in academic papers is nobody has to listen.
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tantek
seriously, XML is a billion dollar trainwreck
#
tantek
and at the heart of it is that talkers drove it, not creators, and certainly not sefldogfooders
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tantek
s/sefldogfooders/selfdogfooders
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: and at the heart of it is that talkers drove it, not creators, and certainly not selfdogfooders
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bret
maybe they had a taste for inflicting pain on themselves (XML folks)
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tantek
bret - nah, more like they were more philosophers than scientists/engineers
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tantek
which works well for academic papers, specifications, etc.
#
tantek
and unfortunately a lot of cargo cult behavior followed
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bret
didnt that academic paper generator get 10 papers pubished recently ;)
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tantek
followed, I mean is still happening
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tantek
there's no other explanation for how many people are pushing so many complex rocks up so many hills
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bret
lol sorry
#
tantek
that is really messed up bret
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tantek
hahahaha - "popularity of hash tables (Joules)" !!!!
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tantek
"block size (cylinders)"
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tantek
bret. that. is. so. wrong.
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tommorris
tantek: h-feed should be deployed to my site in just a moment.
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tommorris
as should my new geolocation code.
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tantek
sweet!
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tantek.com
edited /hAtom (+39) "see h-feed"
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tantek.com
created /APIs (+17) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
bret: "shocked by how many papers were pot-boilers that disguised trivial ideas with inflated language. These were papers that had absolutely no discernible academic value other than to pad a resume, and collect but a smattering of citations, mostly from similar papers"
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bret
academics are so screwed up
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bret
but whatever, they are trying to do good things usually, and are resorce starved and grants are super competative
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Jeena
has now added h-feed too but couldn't find a validator for it like http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2F
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tantek
Jeena - nice!
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tantek
you can use pin13
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tantek
jeena, one typo - search for h-name
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tantek
um aaronpk - why is http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2F returning no items?
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tantek
I see plenty of h-feed h-entry in the source
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Jeena
tantek what is the typo?
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tantek
h-name should be p-name
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Jeena
I'm still not quite getting all the meanings of the prefixes yet
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Jeena
u- is for url that I get ^^
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KartikPrabhu
tommorris: no hurry getting to the pull request for mf2py. I might not be adding anything new this week. Too many other thigns to do
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willnorris.com
edited /h-feed (+295) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
(view diff)
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tantek
Jeena, not quite.
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Jeena
haha not even that? ok
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tantek
u- means parse for URL attribute *first*, and treat them according to the document semantics
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tantek
it does NOT mean that the thing is a URL "type"
#
tantek
the prefixes are purely parsing instructions, not "types"
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Jeena
I see
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tantek
you can have <span class="p-url">http://tantek.com/</span> for example
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Jeena
and url attribute can be src or href, etc.=
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willnorris.com
edited /h-feed (+0) "/* Will Norris */"
(view diff)
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Jeena
oh hm ok
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tommorris
KartikPrabhu: thanks. will look at some point.
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tommorris
just geonoodling.
#
Jeena
tantek the pin13.net server has problems with my ssl certificate afar
#
tantek
Jeena - oh right, that problem
#
tantek
I think barnabywalters has a parser thing too
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Jeena
yeah I can parse it with the ruby parser too, no problem, the webindify me one has just a really nice UI
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tommorris
At some point, I’ll put up a Heroku instance with mf2py
#
tommorris
so people can test it interactively
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tantek
Jeena, speaking of microformats parsing for iPhone, you can use some of the Javascript solutions here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Implementations
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters Indiewebifyme feature request: h-feed parsing/validating similar to current h-entry parsing/validating
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Jeena
tommorris this could be a cool test suite actually, and add a link to your github issues so people really file bugs too :)
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Jeena
ok mf2 seems to parse my index page like I intended
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aaronpk
tantek: it's cause my server still can't figure out Jeena's ssl cert
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aaronpk
yeah it's something to do with the root cert. but other sites signed by startssl work fine from that server
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tommorris
http://tommorris.org/posts/8822 - now got geolocation synthesised.
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tantek.com
edited /Events (+254) "add dates for SF since they're now set!"
(view diff)
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Jeena
tommorris are you using your phone to post posts with a location?
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Jeena
or where do you get the lat and lng from?
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tommorris
in that case, I typed it in manually. but, yes, W3C Geolocation API. ;)
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Jeena
ah ok
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Jeena
show a map on that site!
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tommorris
click the “London”.
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Jeena
yeah bug show a static picture of a map
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tommorris
could do.
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tommorris
for me, it’s mostly just so I can have something like a byline.
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tantek
and I just invited (dared?) public-fedsocweb@w3.org to upcoming indiewebcamps
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Jeena
"http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=" + lat.toString() + "&mlon=" + lng.toString() + "&zoom=12";
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Loqi
tantek has 23 karma
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Jeena
tommorris what is a byline?
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Jeena
hehe tantek
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aaronpk
"No paper submission needed. If you're able to setup your site to be able to RSVP, you're in."
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Loqi
yay!
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tantek
yeah - I decided a little bit of a "in your face!" post was ok ;)
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Jeena
"If you're able to setup your site to be able to RSVP, you're in." nice ^^
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tantek
besides, we want to braindrain the best of the best away from public-fedsocweb
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Jeena
hm I see
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tantek
this is why "talker culture" is dead and just doesn't know it yet
#
Jeena
hm I never heard of a <data> tag in HTML, hm, and is the geo class a microformats thing?
#
tantek
yes and yes
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tommorris
data is one of my favourite tags in HTML
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tantek
why does this not surprise me tommorris? ;)
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tommorris
There’s lots of <data> on my site.
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jeena.net
edited /h-feed (+123) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added user jeena"
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Jeena
hm http://microformats.org/wiki/geo has no examples of title="lat;lng"
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Jeena
and why not use h-geo?
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tommorris.org
edited /h-feed (+139) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me"
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bret
ugghhh, the text in the quitelevel in that email thread are unreadable
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tommorris
tantek: what you say about the geo tags on my site?
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tommorris
I’m fairly sure that was allowed at one point.
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caseorganic.com
edited /2014/SF () "(-3475) /* IndieWebCampSF 2014 */ Moved Guest List to new page, added categories: 2014 and Events. Added info about flights and hotel, additional metadata."
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caseorganic.com
created /2014/SF_Guest_List (+7389) "Added SF 2014 Guest List Page"
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caseorganic.com
edited /2014/SF_Guest_List (+33) "/* Event */"
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Jeena
some people use no space between a word and a smily like this:) which kind of irritates me
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aaronpk
cringe
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tantek
"By combining the best of XML and structured web content" -hahaha
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tantek
what if "the best of XML" is a net negative? What then?
#
KartikPrabhu
and articles like this seem to suggest that Web Components are a better way of doing XML-type things. Which is why I do not understand the former...
#
KartikPrabhu
all of this seems to be complicating HTML without any actual benefit
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tantek.com
edited /Events (+255) "/* Upcoming */ add dates for UK since we know dConstruct is 2014-09-05"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - the benefit is to Drupal consultancies. E.g. that the author of the article works for!
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KartikPrabhu
possibly. But it surely does not solve the problem setup in the beginning of the article
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Jeena
hehe the first comment sets the article in perspective
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tantek
I'm not sure why ALA published that
#
tantek
it's crap
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Loqi
lolz
#
tantek
nothing practical for anyone
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tommorris
"Screenshot of Wikipedia’s custom rich-text editor, with assistive tools for Wiki-specific markup"
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tommorris
That’s not a screenshot of Wikipedia’s rich text editor. That’s a screenshot of Wikipedia’s markup editor with a bunch of JS. The one that Wikimedia are in the process of replacing.
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tommorris
Precisely because having editors have to remember thousands of template names, arguments and then bolt-on hacks to support them wasn’t really working out
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tommorris
There’s a legitimate point to that ALA article: there’s a mismatch between our authorship tools and the sort of things we can do on the web.
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KartikPrabhu
But on some level it seems to me that people are saying "I want to write a book in Japanese but I don't want to learn Japanese!"
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KartikPrabhu
Our writing tools may need improvement, but certainly authours would have to learn something
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tommorris
The web exists to serve humans. A reporter or blogger shouldn’t need to know what the box model is.
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KartikPrabhu
of course not the box model. But they might have to learn some markup/template codes. Else they can just write in plain text and put it in a CMS.
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tommorris
Well, the problem is that CMSes usually suck because of no-dogfooding
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tommorris
They are built and sold on feature lists rather than feature needs.
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KartikPrabhu
of course. Like i said "our tools may need improvement"
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tommorris
The crazy thing about apps is the times when you install an app on your phone and can’t use the functionality on your desktop computer.
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KartikPrabhu
from the article bret linked
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aaronpk
giggles at that email thread
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tommorris
I now have a 13” RetinaBook - the thing has the same resolution as an HDTV! - but I have to grab a smartphone to do certain things.
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tommorris
My online banking is unusable. But the app on my phone isn’t. It does 80% of what I want to do on my online banking but without requiring me to sacrifice burnt offerings to the security gods. So I use the phone version and not the desktop version.
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tantek
tommorris, KartikPrabhu, I heard that Markdown solves all these problems. ;)
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tommorris
Markdown solves many of the problems. The smartest thing Markdown did was allow you to still use HTML
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tantek
tommorris - install a simulator for your smartphone on your laptop? ;)
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KartikPrabhu
yeah. I quite like Markdown too. but you still need to write raw html to do somethings
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - genius!
#
tantek
that needs to go on the silio page
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tommorris
So you can **strongly** *emphasise* things and [link](http://to.stuff.org) but when you need to <kbd>echo what you type</kbd>.
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aaronpk
i can never remember if ** or * is bold or italic
#
aaronpk
also i think mediawiki does it opposite or something
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aaronpk
such confuse.
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KartikPrabhu
agrees with tommorris
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tommorris
MediaWiki does ‘’’bold’’’, ‘’italic’’, and ‘’’’’bold italic’’’’'.
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KartikPrabhu
sad that Editorially closed shop :'(
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tantek
aaronpk, nothing about the * symbol says italic to me
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tommorris
Except without the fancy quotes that my computer decided to add.
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tantek
if say /POSSE/ then that looks like tilt it slightly like italics
#
tantek
that's a major failure Markdown
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tommorris
MediaWiki using apostrophes for quoting is ludicrous.
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tantek
MediaWiki apostrophes for bold/italic are much *worse* to be clear :)
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tommorris
You know how you type “L’<strong>ordinateur</strong>” in MW syntax? L’<nowiki></nowki
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tommorris
L’<nowiki></nowiki>’’’ordinateur’''
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tommorris
because otherwise the strong would be triggered by the first three apostrophes.
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tommorris
The first apostrophe should be an apostrophe. The second, third and fourth should be the bold trigger.
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tommorris
That’s what you get when your parser is a bunch of PHP regex hacks.
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+186) "/* Popular Silos */ free model"
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tommorris
And that’s why the parser has been rewritten in the last year or so.
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KartikPrabhu
I take full responsibility even though bret linked to the article in which I found it :)
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tommorris
“App.net” “popular”.
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tantek.com
created /apps (+225) "stub"
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 14 minutes ago: Indiewebifyme feature request: h-feed parsing/validating similar to current h-entry parsing/validating
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tantek.com
created /platforms (+22) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /platform (+4) "linky"
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tantek.com
edited /app (+91) "XKCD 1174 FTW"
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tantek
fine, bret, this is your fault: http://indiewebcamp.com/apps
#
tantek
man Loqi you're slow with the wiki edits
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Loqi
is done
#
tantek
love that there is a canonical XKCD for the app problem
#
tantek
got to remember that
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KartikPrabhu
I have just started closing tabs that show me pop-ups to "do other things". Sorry you ain't getting my eyeballs
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aaronpk
WHOA just got a bunch of messages in a row. man poor freenode today.
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aaronpk
you can't all have typed that within 2 seconds
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tantek.com
edited /app (+41) "see also"
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KartikPrabhu
I think Loqi has a hangover
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KevinMarks
is there a homebrew website club tomorrow?
#
KevinMarks
interesting trend at launch - hackathon apps all about "anonymous"
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tantek
tommorris, oh hey, one year since http://tommorris.org/posts/8070 !
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tantek
KevinMarks - duh. Snapchat, then Secret
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tantek
see above about cargo cult
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tommorris
tantek: was about to link that.
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KartikPrabhu
that is the first article I read on tommorris.org :)
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barnabywalters
haha loving that definition of “app” ;)
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KevinMarks
yes, but this was 'anonymous ticket trading at venues"
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KartikPrabhu
before discovering IWC
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barnabywalters
I suppose things which aren’t doable (…yet…) as web apps like Logic are grown-up Applications rather than apps ;)
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tantek.com
edited /app (+127) "another article, dates, titles"
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tantek.com
created /Apps (+17) "r"
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: yep, that’s a *little* way of Logic yet :)
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tantek.com
created /App (+17) "r"
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tommorris.org
edited /app (+1654) "The problem with apps."
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tommorris
tantek: enjoy ^^
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tommorris.org
edited /app (-3) "weird char"
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tommorris
the @facebook.com bit is hilarious
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tommorris
We’re just gonna add new URIs (mailto:) to your address book. And now we’re gonna break them.
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aaronpk
wait facebook is dropping their email address thingy?
#
aaronpk
oh jeez
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aaronpk
that launchedin 2010?!
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tommorris
they are just going to redirect to your primary email or whatever email you specify
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KevinMarks
no, they're forwarding them to your other registered email
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KartikPrabhu
i wonder how the whatsface thing'll turn out
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tantek
tommorris - very nice
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tantek
haha even facebook is dropping email
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tantek
see email is dead ;)
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KevinMarks
so the thing Google got shit for with mailing g+ users becomes a way for anyon to mail you based on your fb handle
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KevinMarks
they're shitting directly into your inbox
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KevinMarks
"that stuff no-one looked at on our site - it'll be in your inbox"
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KartikPrabhu
or phones given the whatsapp acquisition
#
tantek
Kevinmarks, good point. Perhaps FB sees this as a way to make email more worthless
#
tantek
e.g. driving more spam etc. to Gmail
#
tantek
even more insiduous
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KevinMarks
but they still require an email to login with - or are they trying to get everyone to switch to phone numbers so the whatsapp merger makes sense?
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barnabywalters
yuk, signing in with phone numbers, really?
#
KartikPrabhu
Facebook did ask me for my phone number everytime i logged in this week
#
willnorris
pretty sure you can already sign in to FB with your phone number
#
tantek
Kevinmarks, yes they bought phonedb
#
tantek
*a* phone db
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tommorris
let’s trade one old functional property for identity for an even more irrelevant and old functional property.
#
KevinMarks
yes, you've been abel to for a while.
#
tantek
Kevinmarks - have you seen the sophistication of the FB account recovery options? Quite clever
#
tantek
they're clearly trying to get away from email-as-recovery-mechanism
#
tantek
and once that's gone, there's no need for email to sign-up
#
tantek
you just, sign-up
#
KevinMarks
not tried them recently, but makes sense
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: is that a good thing?
#
KartikPrabhu
as in no email-as-recovery-mechanism
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tommorris
KartikPrabhu: not sure it’s a good or a bad thing. just another development in the Facebook shitshow. ;)
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tantek
kartikprabhu - it's too often a hack vector
#
KevinMarks
the reason WhatsApp worked well was that it was phone-number centric - so migration form texts was easy
#
tantek
Twitter could have been WhatsApp
#
tantek
if they hadn't neglected DM UI so badly
#
KevinMarks
more to the point, Jaiku could have bee
#
KartikPrabhu
speaking of texts, the Google Hangouts app now hijacks my text sending/recieving!
#
tantek
Kevinmarks - Jaiku never scaled. Twitter did.
#
KevinMarks
as they had apps on all the weird phone platforms
#
tantek
WhatsApp was about scaling + UI.
#
KevinMarks
jaiku didn't get the chance to scale 'cos google broke the team up and shut down signups
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tantek
kevinmarks, jaiku didn't get the chance to scale because THEY SOLD TO GOOGLE.
#
tantek
WhatsApp scaled *before* selling. That's the key.
#
tommorris
Friend of mine just got Adobe spam inviting him to "increase Wikipedia's return on marketing investment”. When was the last time you saw an ad for Wikipedia? Wikipedia’s marketing budget is $0. They get a pretty good ROI. ;)
#
KevinMarks
well, youtube scaled after selling
#
KevinMarks
but yes,it's rare
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tantek
Youtube had to sell because of the lawsuit burden they were facing
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tantek
but yeah, rare, that youtube survived the toxic Google acquisition shutdown culture.
#
tantek
maybe it was early enough?
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KevinMarks
it was around the same time as dodgeball and jaiku
#
KevinMarks
writely managed it too
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KevinMarks
it's a politics crapshoot
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tantek
ah ok
KevinMarks2 and poppy joined the channel
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tommorris
Flickr is sort of surviving.
#
KevinMarks2
I need lunch. I didn't have breakfast
#
tantek
tommorris - only because Stuart and Caterina fought and outmaneuvered the Yahoo middle-management incredibly well
#
tommorris
might start posting pictures on Flickr as my stop-gap photo site.
#
tommorris
I post a fair amount to Commons but you have to get the metadata right before posting there
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: presumably you’re already aware of this, but cat.photography is now parked by godaddy, apparently up for sale :)
#
barnabywalters
tantek: any plans to add all these ridiculous new TLDs to the cassis auto linker? or wait until people start using them unironically?
#
tantek
barnabywalters I think the code has a comment about that
#
aaronpk
I thought whitelisting TLDs was bad practice for autolinkers
#
tantek
// .mobi .jobs deliberately excluded to discourage layer violations.
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tantek
// see http://flic.kr/p/2kmuSL for more on the problematic new gTLDs
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barnabywalters
that’s the first time a code comment has ever directed me towards a flickr link for more information
#
aaronpk
hahahaha
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: lol
#
aaronpk
well .mobi is not the same problem as all the new TLDs
#
tantek
so no, we vote against them by breaking them
#
aaronpk
oh I remember .tel
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tantek
"Warning: I’m pretty goddamn angry." - imagines Tom Morris as the Hulk
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tantek
hmm blog.tommorris.org is on Tumblr. didn't all those URLs get move to being Ferocity hosted on tommorris.org?
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barnabywalters
oh good grief the one .tel domain I know of contains an email monstrosity: http://edent.tel/
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barnabywalters
edent.tel@shkspr.mobi
#
tantek
irony: all the .tel sites support hCard
#
tantek
(no, seriously)
#
KartikPrabhu
wait! so .mobi is a TLD for mobile versions on sites?
#
tantek
./a/bitch
#
aaronpk
shh don't say it out loud
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tantek
goes to wash his mouth out.
#
KartikPrabhu
hands tantek seom soap
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tommorris
tantek: yeah, it’s on my very slow to process list of next actions
#
KartikPrabhu
yeah .mobi is dumb. With all this responsive thing going on how the hell did .mobi pass?
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tommorris
KartikPrabhu: because the people who make the decisions are more interested in buying new designer suits and private jets than they are technical merit.
#
KartikPrabhu
so someone can pay ICANN to make more TLDs?
#
tommorris
you make a proposal to ICANN for a new gTLD.
#
KartikPrabhu
really doesn't know how this works
#
tommorris
That proposal is accompanied with a couple of suitcases worth of money.
#
KartikPrabhu
sounds like a bribe/prostitution...
#
KartikPrabhu
might regret saying that once .mobi is overlord
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tommorris
.mobi ain’t going anywhere: once a GTLD is in, it’s kinda gotta stay. but at the same time, there’s no point in buying a .mobi
#
tommorris
and not all GTLD proposals are money-grubbing bastardery.
#
KartikPrabhu
of course. didn't mean to imply that
#
tommorris
there’s a proposal for .eco - for charities and organisations doing ecological stuff. and the money would go to some kind of environmental fund.
#
tommorris
and the Lesbian and Gay Foundation proposed .gay, but Saudi Arabia’s ICANN rep blocked it. see: http://tommorris.org/posts/2522
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KartikPrabhu
that piece of news i knew
#
tommorris
(if .gay comes into existence, I’m going to register “not.gay” and point it to whichever right-wing fundamentalist just got caught in an airport bathroom with a wide stance.)
caseorganic joined the channel
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KevinMarks2
Who got euthan.asia?
#
KevinMarks2
Or aph.asia?
#
aaronpk
heh, just noticed that zach holman uses github issues instead of email: https://github.com/holman/feedback
#
tommorris
Formspring for nerds. ;)
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snarfed
aaronpk: hope i wasn't too snarky with the github-issue-as-email i sent you a while back
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snarfed
couldn't resist
#
aaronpk
ha oops apparently I wasn't "watching" that repo so didn't get notified :)
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snarfed
oh man
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snarfed
irony on top of irony
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aaronpk
of course "watching" means I get emails when issues are opened :)
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snarfed
and they show up in your GH feed (and its RSS feed, etc)
#
snarfed
i know how unfashionable it is around here, but i still use a feed reader for almost everything, including GH, all silos, etc
#
aaronpk
i just set up a feed reader! reading microformats of course
#
snarfed
i know! i love that work you did on selfoss
#
snarfed
gotta try it myself
#
snarfed
i know readers are fine around here
#
snarfed
i meant rss/atom
#
snarfed
i don't plan to argue merits, but they're supported almost everywhere today, which is nice :P
#
tommorris
uses feedbin.me and Reeder.
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snarfed
misses google reader
#
snarfed
but treasures the reader engineer we have at quip :P
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tantek.com
edited /2014/SF (+29) "add Guest_List id for inbound links to work"
(view diff)
#
tantek
caseorganic ^^^ reminder
#
tantek
when moving sections like that to their own pages, leave in a placeholder so previous fragment links still work! e.g. any http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF#Guest_List that may have been shared with people
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/SF (+15) "/* RSVP */ bold"
(view diff)
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caseorganic
tantek: great
#
KartikPrabhu
snarfed: now that mf2py is more functional a python-based mf2 reader is a good possibility
#
tantek
also beware of YYYY copy pasta
#
snarfed
KartikPrabhu: totally!
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/SF_Guest_List (-2) "update YYYY copy pasta"
(view diff)
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tommorris
KartikPrabhu, snarfed: mf2py for h-feed, Universal Feed Parser for everything else
#
KartikPrabhu
looks for Universal Feed Parser
#
aaronpk
fixed. now I get IRC notifications of my /self repo
#
KartikPrabhu
snarfed, tommorris: nice. Did not know about the universal feed parser. Looks like a good project as a fallback to RSS/ATOM
#
tommorris
the only problem is that mark pilgrim seems to have sadly disappeared
#
tommorris
and diveintomark.org just redirects to godaddy
#
KartikPrabhu
seems kurt mckee has taken over
#
tommorris
ah okay
#
tommorris
one day he just decided to “410 Gone"
#
KartikPrabhu
but even that is 2010-2012 on the pypi page
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bear
the state of rss/atom hasn't moved in any meaningful way - so feedparser hasn't had to do much to keep up
#
KartikPrabhu
quite possible
#
bear
adding mf2 to it's url/file handling would be a nice addition
tilgovi and caseorganic joined the channel
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tommorris
mf2py needs a bit more maturity before I’d subject feedparser uses to it. ;)
#
bear
sure, but us early adopter types who are using python can enjoy it now :)
tilgovi and barnabywalters joined the channel
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tommorris
has setup redirection from blog.tommorris.org (Tumblr) to tommorris.org (ferocity, self-hosted)
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#
KevinMarks2
Talking to neo/dg about using their market Street offices for indieWebcamp
#
willnorris.com
edited /2014/SF (+52) "/* Sponsor */ Google will sponsor dinner on Friday"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks2: we got a spot already did you see the wiki?
#
willnorris
so Google will pick up dinner next friday. Any recommendations on where? I don't spend any time in SF anymore, so don't know what's good
#
KevinMarks2
No, I heard that it was possible
#
aaronpk
thanks willnorris!!
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KevinMarks2
Are we good at the embassy then?
#
aaronpk
yep we're all set with them, caseorganic confirmed and updated the wiki
#
caseorganic
KevinMarks2: yes! just got confirmation. we're all set!
#
Loqi
does a happy dance!
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KevinMarks2
Neo/dg have a good space - big co-working space, with a retail store front on market and breakout spaces inside
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caseorganic
KevinMarks2: ah, how much room? think we can organize the next indiewebcamp there?
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caseorganic
KevinMarks2: it might be nice for the first sf one to be smaller
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KevinMarks2
Retail space is about 40. Main room about 160, lots of breakout space.
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /IRC_People (+0) "sorted by irc nick"
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KevinMarks2
Which is busy on Friday but freeer on Saturday, if they can get a staff person to cover
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caseorganic
KevinMarks2: wow that's great!