#indiewebcamp 2014-03-05

2014-03-05 UTC
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@kevinpurdy Another great guest on <In Beta> Wed.: Amber Case (@caseorganic), of @indiewebcamp & mucho mas. Live 10:45 a.m. ET: http://5by5.tv/live (twitter.com/_/status/441006820157435904)
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@caseorganic Speaking about the #indieweb tmmrw morning on the <In Beta> podcast! Live 10:45 a.m. ET: http://5by5.tv/live (http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/03/04/1/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/441008001780957186)
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@kevinmarks RT @caseorganic: Speaking about the #indieweb tmmrw morning on the <In Beta> podcast! Live 10:45 a.m. ET: http://5by5.tv/live (http://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/441010026522476544)
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snarfed tantek: looks like you clicked on the facebook notification to re-authorize bridgy?
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snarfed that's great if so! haven't seen it happen in the wild much yet, so i'm glad to know it's working
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tantek snarfed - yes - saw it pop-up in FB notifications and clicked it.
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snarfed thanks. and it looks like it worked ok from the client side…?
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tantek darn it I missed sandeepshetty!
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snarfed heh
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tantek oh, THIS is a very good reason: "working on moving converspace from purely dB to file system + indexes in dB. " - awesome!!!
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tantek !KartikPrabhu re: "why normalisation to absolute URLs is done in the middle and not at the end of u- parsing" - because it's only done for attributes that are for URLs, rather than any/all plain text.
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tantek darn it.
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu re: "why normalisation to absolute URLs is done in the middle and not at the end of u- parsing" - because it's only done for attributes that are for URLs, rather than any/all plain text.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu tantek: So sometime u- properties do not have an actual URL?
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 54 seconds ago: re: "why normalisation to absolute URLs is done in the middle and not at the end of u- parsing" - because it's only done for attributes that are for URLs, rather than any/all plain text.
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tantek KartikPrabhu - "u-" just means go parse the URL-like attributes first
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tantek nothing more
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tantek whether anything has an "actual URL" is a completely different question
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KartikPrabhu I see. That makes sense now. Thanks!
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tantek Is there some way I could capture that as an FAQ?
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KartikPrabhu I don't know. I think the question is more about the nature of u-* properties. If mf2 consumers do not expect to always have an actual URL there then it makes sense
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tantek well you can't really depend on the author getting it right, right?
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tantek you have to handle anything the author might put in there.
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KartikPrabhu yes, true. I understand the reasons now. But I am not sure how to make it clear to mf2 spec readers from the outset :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: for instance, all examples of u-* properties have an actual URL in them. So the assumption that u-* should be parsed only for valid URLs is reinforced!
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KartikPrabhu that way it makes no sense to use abbr[title] as a possible value for a u-* property
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pauloppenheim so, i signed up
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pauloppenheim i have been wanting to go to this for years
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snarfed for IWC SF this weekend?
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snarfed awesome!
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pauloppenheim yeah
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pauloppenheim i even made myself a real paage in anticipation
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pauloppenheim oh mediawiki
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snarfed just for iwc! nice!
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pauloppenheim yeah man
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pauloppenheim there's a certain irony about putting data into a site that's all about not putting data onto other people's sites
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snarfed heh yes
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snarfed see you in a few days!
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@rwentechaney @seani @hvsaunders @actionhero @dvalenzulu @timlauer #indieweb I'm biased, but think best egg is something you own/host...+ (twitter.com/_/status/441054621805461504)
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@rwentechaney @seani @hvsaunders @actionhero @dvalenzulu @timlauer +Push that content to FB and Twitter. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/441054996042244096)
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@sull RT @caseorganic: Speaking about the #indieweb tmmrw morning on the <In Beta> podcast! Live 10:45 a.m. ET: http://5by5.tv/live (http://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/441056139997102081)
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@funnymonkey RT @rwentechaney: @seani @hvsaunders @actionhero @dvalenzulu @timlauer #indieweb I'm biased, but think best egg is something you own/host..… (twitter.com/_/status/441059987066851329)
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@kevinmarks @ChrisSaad disappointing. Far better if they implemented something closer to indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/441098154226642944)
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@ChrisSaad @kevinmarks adding more and more proprietary login options = fail. Should be ONE choice (i.e. something like indieauth or whatever) (twitter.com/_/status/441099871953485824)
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@kevinmarks @ChrisSaad indieauth does judo on the proprietary ones, making them commodities that reinforce your own domain (twitter.com/_/status/441108493907402752)
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@jalbertbowdenii @ChrisSaad sad. equally pathetic. #indieweb ftw! what does mr. data portability himself have to say about it? (twitter.com/_/status/441125854358568960)
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@markcote Indie Web: an interesting movement to 'redecentralise' the web and take control over your own data! http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/441174387094347776)
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tommorris http://recode.net/2014/03/04/yahoo-to-end-facebook-google-sign-in-on-its-web-properties/
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aaronpk barnabywalters: nice work on the getting started with microformats article!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: thanks! been in draft for a while, decided it’s better just to throw it out there
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barnabywalters it’s part of a series which will also cover how to consume microformats2
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aaronpk cool!!
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aaronpk live indieweb podcast right now! http://5by5.tv/live
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barnabywalters #5by5
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bret barnabywalters: your mf2 article is great! I think the article format is a good way to introduce how to use them
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bret seems more approachable
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barnabywalters bret: thanks! yep, a lot of people find the wiki quite intimidating at first, articles can be more effective at providing a wider context
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bret barnabywalters: getting a 404 on the http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf link in the article
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aaronpk oops missing a "2"
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barnabywalters oops!
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barnabywalters fixed
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bret barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 27 karma
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barnabywalters thanks bret
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barnabywalters wow I really need to improve styling for code blocks — white-on-black with suspect padding is getting on my nerves
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aaronpk lol "suspect padding"
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barnabywalters has anyone managed to find a decent wysiwym editor for articles yet?
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barnabywalters decent as in excellent support for images, embeds, extensibility, produces excellent markup, ability to switch between markup and visual editing for small tweaks, etc
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek barnabywalters - that's sort of the project of the decade
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barnabywalters morning tantek!
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barnabywalters tantek: heh, yeah
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tantek I think lots (WordPress, MediaWiki, Google Docs) are working on trying to solve that
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tantek who's on #5by5?
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aaronpk amber!
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tantek awesome!
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bret Not wysiwyg, but I like the idea of deffered markdown. You use labeled link/image placeholders and then put all the links in at the end
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bret haven't really seen a fully fleshed out implementation though
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tantek posting now
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@t #indieweb #5by5tv with @caseorganic live now http://t.co/QLVF7gcpz9! (ttk.me t4Uu1) (twitter.com/_/status/441252213277859840)
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bret ack no way? I though you meant the irc channel :p
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tantek oh no did I miss it?
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caseorganic :)
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caseorganic just wrapping up
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tantek just clicked on live and it's something else!
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caseorganic tantek: christie koehler from mozilla invited me. she's at mozilla sf right now for training.
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tantek don't understand what that means caseorganic re: when are you on 5by5tv live?
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tantek 8:25 aaronpk: live indieweb podcast right now! http://5by5.tv/live
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aaronpk he's doing the sponsor message right now but amber's been on since 8am
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@ShaneHudson RT @t: #indieweb #5by5tv with @caseorganic live now http://t.co/QLVF7gcpz9! (ttk.me t4Uu1) (twitter.com/_/status/441252712504913921)
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tantek oh ok cool. phew!
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tantek :)
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tantek thanks for the clarification aaronpk
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tantek ah I see christie koehler on the live page
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tantek was expecting Amber's shining face :)
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aaronpk dropped some indiewebcamp links in the #5by5 channel
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aaronpk oh good it's recorded
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caseorganic tantek: :) they'll post it soon
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caseorganic it's a little early in the morning, so hopefully i explained everything well enough
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aaronpk was great!
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bret aaaaan now its zeldman
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tantek awesome
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bret good job caseorganic !
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tantek been talking with zeldman about indieweb for a while
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bret caseorganic++
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Loqi caseorganic has 118 karma
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caseorganic bret: hey, thanks! :)
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caseorganic tantek: aaronpk: i'd like to do a short intro to indieweb as the first section of indiewebcamp sf as a practice
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tantek caseorganic++ for doing a podcast so early in the morning!
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Loqi caseorganic has 119 karma
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caseorganic tantek: :)
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tantek caseorganic - we have been doing a short intro to indieweb - like 5 minutes
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caseorganic i've been working on a comic introduction to indieweb but i'm not certain how far i'll get with it before the actual indiewebcamp this friday. we'll see. in lieu of that, an intro would be good.
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bret zeldman is rad. love his writing. What would it take to get him to start POSSEing to twitter?
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tantek happy to have you do it if that's what you're asking :)
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tantek bret, Zeldman switched to WordPress a while ago so that's one obstacle
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caseorganic tantek: neat! it would be fun to try and get feedback on
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tantek almost no one who uses WordPress actually posts notes on their own domain and POSSE's to Twitter. snarfed is an exception.
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caseorganic interesting
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tantek most WordPress users treat Twitter as something "different"
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tantek including Mullenweg himself
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tantek partially I think it's due to the client problem
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tantek everyone has their own favorite Twitter client and it's much more convenient to use it (integrated reading and posting!) than use WordPress which has a very heavy-weight / clunky UI
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tantek but that's just a hypothesis
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tantek I know pferrerle and co are working on plugins for this but it was interesting to learn that native notes + POSSE to Twitter was a secondary priority (to Webmention etc. - which is fine, just interesting)
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bret hrm. good point
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tantek bret, it's why solving the indiereader problem is so important
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tantek and in particular making the connection from reading something to favoriting/reposting/replying to it
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tantek as seamlessly as you can in Twitter clients
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tantek e.g. while reading in Twitter / iOS, with click I can favorite a tweet and keep scrolling - in list view.
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bret one thing I noticed about my work on the cross site commenting is that it distracted me a lot from improving my site's UX
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@jalbertbowdenii RT @t: #indieweb #5by5tv with @caseorganic live now http://t.co/QLVF7gcpz9! (ttk.me t4Uu1) (twitter.com/_/status/441257245134049280)
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tantek bret - that's interesting, because isn't cross site commenting part of your site's UX?
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rkzweb There really should be an indieweb alternative to silo music-logging, ie. last.fm & libre.fm
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rkzweb Anyone know of anything...?
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aaronpk that would mean logging music on your own site :)
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aaronpk has been thinking about doing that but it's on the backlog
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rkzweb True true, the form wouldn't be too different from publishing notes. But the devils in the details.
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aaronpk the devil is also in the presentation :)
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aaronpk you could also implement the audioscrobble API and then point an scrobbling client at your own site!
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rkzweb Yes, that'd be an interesting hobby project. Should do that.
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rkzweb It sounds impossible but it'd be awesome to have music taste comparisons that operate over a distributed architecture, such as the indieweb.
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rkzweb Haven't a clue how ~that'd~ work, though.
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aaronpk unfortunately as time went on, many scrobble clients started hard-coding last.fm and now you can't change the scrobble endpoint from apps
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aaronpk rkzweb: that sounds doable
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aaronpk the point of the indieweb is not that aggregators like last.fm *can't* exist, it's that you should own the data first and selectively share with them
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aaronpk rkzweb: I don't see you on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people yet, what is your website?
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rkzweb aaronpk: I don't have one. I've only heard of this movement-of-sorts a couple months ago. Sounds interesting. Very anti-fragile.
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rkzweb I'll keep that philosophy advice in mind, thanks. :)
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aaronpk cool. what's holding you back from getting a simple site running?
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rkzweb Perfectionism, lack-of-pressure...? I'd like to get myself grounded in the nitty-gritty of the web and how it works, before setting out on any self-run website.
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rkzweb Although I am looking into purchasing a domain. But first the new TLDs have to come into play, more fully.
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aaronpk well once you have a domain you can sign in to the wiki
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aaronpk then you can create a user page to document your interests and priorities. it's helpful to have that kind of stuff out in the open cause it forces you to really think about it that way.
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aaronpk see: http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Itching and http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Itching
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KartikPrabhu rkzweb: from my own experience over the past year, it is better to just dive in and get started on a personal website and incrementally improve on it, than worry about learning all there is to know.
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aaronpk also don't worry about making a "perfect" site at first. it can be something super simple!
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aaronpk http://www.kevinmarks.com is a great example!
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rkzweb I see, I see
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rkzweb I'll keep this in mind then. It does make sense to start out small, then incrementally improve.
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bret tantek: yes, but its really far away from being much of an experience :p
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bret Its still a hassle, i need to shift focus to make it easier to post to
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tantek bret - yeah - I hear you on those tradeoffs
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tantek personal posting UI - vs - viewing/using experience for my readers/friends - vs - UI for replying to others posts/activities.
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chrisroo_ Hi, folks. I've been lurking on the outskirts for a while but am really interested in what's going on in indieweb land.
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aaronpk welcome chrisroo_!
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chrisroo_ I've had a go at trying to summarise some of the interesting things that happened in the community last week.
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chrisroo_ I think there's lots of great stuff happening but I'm not sure how easy it is to see that from the outside (and I include myself as being on the outside).
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aaronpk oh? I'd love to see it!
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chrisroo_ I'd love to know what you think, and whether you think it's something worth pursuing.
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chrisroo_ https://gist.github.com/chrisroos/a4cbb4b98eed8bc527e1
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chrisroo_ The readme has a little more info about my motivation and includes some specific questions that I'd be interested in hearing responses to.
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aaronpk oh this is great! I was just thinking about a "this week in the indieweb" series!
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aaronpk wow amazing, exactly what I had in mind!
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aaronpk to answer your question, yes I think including active wiki pages would be great
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chrisroo_ Awesome. It took a long time to create this manually but with more people involved, and some automation, I think we should be able to create it relatively quickly.
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aaronpk super cool
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aaronpk yes there's a lot that can be automated, at least in terms of gathering source material for someone to describe
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aaronpk i'm impressed, this is really great
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chrisroo_ Do you have any thoughts about what to do next? Should I pop it on the wiki?
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aaronpk the wiki is a great place for this, so others can caontribute easily too!
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chrisroo_ Great stuff. Let me see if I can work out how to do that.
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aaronpk probably a page name like "2014-03-02-this-week-in-the-indieweb" so that they sort properly in lists
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chrisroo_ Ha - that's almost exactly the name I'd started typing.
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aaronpk wonderful :)
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chrisroo_ Can I paste markdown directly in that textarea?
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aaronpk unfortunately mediawiki syntax is slightly different from markdown
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aaronpk links are [http://example.com Link Text]
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snarfed …but oh man. my kingdom for markdown in mediawiki!
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aaronpk headers are "== level 2 =="
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aaronpk yeah I don't know if I wanna dig that far into the depths of mediawiki to make that happen :/
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snarfed aaronpk: oh agreed, i wouldn't wish it on you
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chrisroo_ Ah, I've just seen the "Show preview" button. That'll keep me going.
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snarfed it does inspire me though. i bet there's a markdown-to-mediawiki converter out there that we could mash together with a bit of js
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aaronpk hm looks like there's already an extension http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MarkdownSyntax
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snarfed !!!
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snarfed DO IT
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aaronpk i'm scared
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KartikPrabhu chrisroo_ "this week in indieweb" is a great ideA!
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aaronpk i'm worried it would have unintended side effects
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aaronpk also honestly mediawiki link syntax is nicer anyway
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snarfed yeah, the actual syntax is mostly subjective, but adoption is a bit more objective. :P
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snarfed but true, side effects do seem dangerous. i'll put the converter bookmarklet on my todo list
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aaronpk that'd be an interesting way of doing it!
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chrisroos.co.uk created /2014-03-03-this-week-in-the-indieweb (+4225) "Add This week in the indieweb, as per http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-03-05/line/1394044233" (view diff)
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chrisroo_ I was about the paste a link but Loqi's already done it.
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Loqi grins profusely
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tantek Love posts like this. Very difficult to automate and or keep going regularly. We tried in microformats and once the active writers get busy, the updates don't happen.
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chrisroo_ I need to run away now so will leave it up to others to link to/add/amend/remove the page as they deem fit. Thanks for the enthusiasm, folks :-)
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aaronpk awesome. yeah I can see how it'd be hard to keep going.
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aaronpk I was thinking about doing as much automation as possible, creating the pages programmatically, then people could jump in and add stuff
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aaronpk things that can be done completely automatically: list of events, active wiki pages
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aaronpk IRC summary will always be a challenge, but is super cool to see
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aaronpk could add a Loqi command for people to submit "interesting posts", like !share http://scripting.com/2014/03/01/whyBlog.html
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KartikPrabhu or collect webmentions to indiewebcamp.com in a list of posts about indiewebcamp this week or something?
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aaronpk software releases could be done if we create a list of github repos to watch
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aaronpk collecting webmentions of wiki pages could be good too
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aaronpk </braindump>
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KartikPrabhu Loqi already collects them here. but the wiki could do it
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barnabywalters RE this week in indieweb, I was thinking that a paper.li-type thing using microformats would be a really compelling demonstration of consuming microformats
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tantek aaronpk, could also (semi-)automate interesting posts and interesting videos by looking at what's been added to "Posts about the Indie Web" and "Videos about the indie web"
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aaronpk tantek: yes great!
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aaronpk barnabywalters: can you elaborate?
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tantek barnabywalters - the irony is that in microformats itself we've found anything weekly/monthly/recently has been difficult to get to and do
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tantek even when more activity was happening more frequently
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barnabywalters the problem is, how to make mashups publishable on people’s owns sites
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barnabywalters aaronpk: basically a UI where you can drag URLs in, they get parsed and you make a little newspaper type thing out of them
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aaronpk ah cool!
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barnabywalters then that gets a URL which can be shared around, obv.
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aaronpk the output could just be html+css so you can copy+paste it anywhere
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah that’s the tricky thing — HTML is fine, but CSS is more prone to overflow
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aaronpk it wouldn't take much css to make it look somewhat nice, and can be self-contained
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barnabywalters aaronpk: true, but it’s still an ugly solution
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aaronpk it is?
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barnabywalters well, I consider embedding CSS inside the HTML for a particular post quite ugly
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barnabywalters code-ugly, but not visually ugly :)
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aaronpk hm, that seems fine to me if the CSS is not part of the site layout and affects only things in the post
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barnabywalters yeah it could be done with extensive id or class scoping, but again that it quite ugly
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barnabywalters of course, I could just generate an image or PDF and embed that ;)
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barnabywalters embedding CSS is not sounding nearly so bad compared to that “solution”
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tantek let me be clearer - I want to encourage anyone to publish a "This week in the indie web" blog post - this is an excellent example https://gist.github.com/chrisroos/a4cbb4b98eed8bc527e1 and could be posted as is.
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tantek since we're all here and get notified when each other posts
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tantek and I doubt anyone wants to duplicate work
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tantek everyone feel free to blog such posts
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tantek and watch for them here
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tantek and others of us can always reply and add any bits we thought were missed
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aaronpk any particular reason not to do that on the wiki?
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tantek none at all - doing it on the wiki is fine too!
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tantek I'm just saying everyone should feel free to post on their own site as well or instead too
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tantek q+ workshop format is obsolete
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tantek and IRC channel meeting multitask faile
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gavinc_ indeed tantek, I don't think Zakim can hear you from here
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tantek not yet
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