#indiewebcamp 2014-03-17

2014-03-17 UTC
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caseorga_ in a discussion with arielwaldman and mattb on the indieweb. "i have consciously divested myself of running certain technologies and have become flexible with adapting to what makes sense to use at a certain time. - mattb. When you own something there's a burden of upkeep. Many people are running WordPress 2.0 and they're unaware the cost of upkeep.
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caseorganic.com edited /generations (+770) "Added notes on cost of upkeep from Convo with Ariel and Mattb" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu caseorga_: that is an interesting observation. Maybe mattb should write some detailed post. He seems to have very legitimate concerns about this.
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@GeekGawk #geek #nerd #gamer: Indieweb and Feeds - Dave Winer: If this article about feeds on the IndieWeb... http://www.geekgawk.com/2014/03/15/indieweb-and-feeds/ #GoogleReader (twitter.com/_/status/445363324679507968)
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@jmsmcfrlnd "@zrail: New blog post: Self-hosted Git Server (and moving away from GitHub) https://www.petekeen.net/self-hosted-git-server via @zrail" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/445381474620297216)
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@EliotLandrum Been reading about #IndieWeb and it mostly seems like a lot of made-up terms to just describe blogging on your own site. I don’t get it. (twitter.com/_/status/445408553306562560)
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@kartik_prabhu @EliotLandrum It does! It also includes a goal to effectively connect individual blogs through replies, #webmention and all that. (twitter.com/_/status/445410479515525122)
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KartikPrabhu indieweb seems to have become famous now, along with all the misconceptions that go with that!
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aaronpk oboy
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KartikPrabhu i don't see why "blogging on your own site" is accompanied by "just"
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bret what part of tech isnt described with a whole bunch of made up words?
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KartikPrabhu bret: true!
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KartikPrabhu but that wasn't a good counter-point for that tweet! :D
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bret keep it positive, I like your response
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bret im too bitter about this whole Dave winer thing ;)
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KartikPrabhu I am too. he's too influential to be making hostile comments, but oh well
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: kudos for the positive reply. that's the best way to handle criticism.
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aaronpk it's not worth arguing, just be positive and keep on shipping shipping shipping
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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bret aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 395 karma
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bret KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 9 karma
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aaronpk http://meme.loqi.me/4V6s0QLj.jpg
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KartikPrabhu i really wish I had replied from my own site... :(
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bret lol
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aaronpk oops haha
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KartikPrabhu should really get reply-notes working
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bret This is dave'
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bret s response if anyone is interested: https://gist.github.com/bcomnes/eb3a18c5a1abcdaf597a
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aaronpk whoa
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Loqi [mention] http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/03/16/once-again-dave-winer-pulls-me-in/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@davidmead Once again, @DaveWiner pulls me in... http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/03/16/once-again-dave-winer-pulls-me-in/ #IndieWeb #RSS (twitter.com/_/status/445413534243909632)
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bret !tell caseorga_ that viz is super great!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret aaronpk I regret paiting my understanding of RSS today, I think that really pissed him off
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aaronpk re-reads
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bret its his babie, so telling him its taken some blows (it totally has) become personal
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aaronpk "RSS and atom bickered and hardened their way into its current sorry state" heh yeah, but true
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bret I could throw in the fact that PuSH realized RSS/Atom were holding it back an braodened the spec to accomidate any type of data
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aaronpk that's an excellent point
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KartikPrabhu wow! yeah he has really taken it personally
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bret The idea, I think, is to move beyond document polling. While we are at it, we might as well address some of the issues with alternate representations of data
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bret I regret my post, I would rather have Dave see a more accurite picture than emotionally provoke him, even though that was unintentional
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KartikPrabhu stops working on CSS and goes to models.py to get notes upto shape
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aaronpk yes I'm surprised to see him take it so personally, although I totally can see why he would
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bret I think I'll try to broaden the feeds page at some point. The critcizm is valid though, at some level
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aaronpk barnaby cleaned it up a lot yesterday, (thanks barnaby!!)
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bret !tell barnabywalters thanks for the feeds page improvements
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk yeah I feel lik that page was not very representative of us...
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bret well it is. Its a totally fresh perspective, and its valid. It just doen't represent the fact that pretty much everyone here publishes RSS/Atom on their own site. which is to say, way more supportive of traditional feeds than the people who just pay for a feed reader and echo Winers sentiment in his comments section
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bret Winers response, which unfortunately looks like he is unable to perform critical analysis when he his upset (tis hard), coupled with his past responses (see his initial response to JSON) has really colored my view on his perspective
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bret hes down with RSS and XML basically and doesn't have much to say in terms of making improvements on them
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bret even if those imrpovements have to do with something totally different than traditional feeds :[
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aaronpk what I thought was particularly interesting is this: http://news.cnet.com/Battle-of-the-blog/2009-1032_3-5059006.html
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aaronpk "Calls to revise RSS itself fell on deaf ears when Winer decided to freeze its technological core, preventing substantial changes to the heart of the format."
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aaronpk from 2003
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bret doen't surprise me
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bret im down with, if it isn't broken, dont fix it
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bret but dont let that stop you from trying new things o.0
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bret fargo is rad because its a webapp that a) use useful on some level and b) is totally fresh in terms of its relationship to your data
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bret its stores it all in dropbox, but that could be offline storage
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bret or some other html5 tech
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aaronpk I really didn't like his remark "For whatever reason these people seem to want a web without RSS."
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bret it is wrong to say indieweb doesnt want rss
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aaronpk it seems like he's focused too much on that particular technology cause it's his baby, without really paying attention to what people are actually trying to accomplish with syndication technologies
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bret tantek doesnt like rss, but tantek wouldnt be tantek if he didn't say that
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bret still, tantek pubilishes atom feeds, so whats the problem
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aaronpk atom != RSS ... maybe that's the problem
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bret lol ya it does
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aaronpk but I think Dave is conflating RSS with syndication in general. So he comes across as saying "the indieweb doesn't want independence because they don't like feeds"
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bret atom ~= rss
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aaronpk not to Dave
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bret This, I know now
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bret maybe that just thew salt in the wound when I used them interchangably
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aaronpk probably yeah lol
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bret again, didn't realize how touch this would be
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aaronpk read that "battle of the blog" article. it's all about how Dave was fending off the new Atom spec trying to get everyone to solidify on RSS and prevent anything from changing
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bret eek
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bret ok i will
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bret atom vs rss has to be the most pointless argument
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aaronpk this is what amber keeps talking about in her talks... the rss vs atom wars
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bret lol
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bret it would be rad to get some highlights from those arguments
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aaronpk which are apparently continuing now
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bret for halarity
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bret "However, just looking around, I observe that there are many people and organizations who seem unable to maintain a good working relationship with Dave."
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bret yesssir
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bret I should tweet this "You can't create things with flames--you can only tear things down with flames." - Dave Winer
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bret Or add that to the comments
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Loqi yea
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bret XD
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aaronpk heh
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bret criticism != flames
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bret contradiction and mischaracterization = flames
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aaronpk "in some circles “RSS” has be­come a syn­onym for “Reliably Spite­ful Squabbling.”" http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/06/23/SamsPie
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bret developing web standards must be a psychologically damaging thing to an indivudual. All your past mistakes and stupid quips are forever logged
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bret says as my chat gets logged away indefinately
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aaronpk welcome :)
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KartikPrabhu bret: seems a lot like doing science :)
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KartikPrabhu you have to expect to be wrong mostly
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bret yeah except academics still struggle to digitize a lot of discourse
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bret or lock it away where only 5 people will ever look at it
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bret but yeah basically
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KartikPrabhu of course... that is something I actively worry about :) scientists are still stuck on pdfs :|
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bret i wanted to use pandoc to offer pdf copies of my blog when I first started
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bret XD
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bret priorities
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KartikPrabhu fyi most physics papers are now online as preprints but still pdf... and don't get me started on Latex!
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KartikPrabhu moves to reply contexts!
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bret i actually like parts of latex
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KartikPrabhu true. but after writing a whole lot of html latex seems horribly dated and tedious
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bret semantic latex..... does this exist?
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KartikPrabhu nope!
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KartikPrabhu mainly because latex is for typesetting and not merkup
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KartikPrabhu markup*
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KartikPrabhu how do people store reply-contexts? as mf2 data?
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aaronpk I store the raw HTML as well as the parsed JSON
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KartikPrabhu also is there some note I can reply to as a test for replying through my site?
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aaronpk I store the HTML so that I can re-parse it later if needed like if the parser improves
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:bridgy-logo.jpg]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /Bridgy (+47) "add logo" (view diff)
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snarfed aww. thanks aaronpk!
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aaronparecki.com edited /Sponsors (+840) "add 2014 SF sponsors" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Sponsors (+148) (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: caseorga_ left you a message 9 hours, 5 minutes ago: - willobl00 (at MIT media lab and Harvard Berkman Cneter made this viz of IndieWeb) http://viz.bl00cyb.org/indieweb/
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tantek caseorganic - oh noes: "Prezi needs Flash Player 11.1 or better. Upgrade here." (re: Harvard Berkman Cneter made this viz of IndieWeb)
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arcatan :(
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@mcburton @desconcentrado i use github, but i don't have to trust it https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/445523961980276736)
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@EliotLandrum @kartik_prabhu I don’t understand the difference between web mention and trackback. We’ve had that since the ‘00s. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/445536984841220097)
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Loqi [mention] http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/03/16/once-again-dave-winer-pulls-me-in/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@ShaneHudson Nice shout out to #indieweb from @zeldman, in reference to the W3C wanting to look after their own data etc http://www.muleradio.net/thebigwebshow/114/ (twitter.com/_/status/445560630133932033)
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@jalbertbowdenii @TheOKCast maybe looking into #indieweb is a good start. breaking away from silos, having your data in your possession. not for sale. (twitter.com/_/status/445561667347546112)
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Loqi barnabywalters: bret left you a message 9 hours, 52 minutes ago: thanks for the feeds page improvements
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barnabywalters bret: np
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /feed (-4) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ moved example links to the top of the section to decrease chances it gets left in the middle" (view diff)
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@GeekGawk #geek #nerd #gamer: Indieweb and Feeds - Dave Winer: If this article about feeds on the IndieWeb... http://www.geekgawk.com/2014/03/15/indieweb-and-feeds/ #GoogleReader (twitter.com/_/status/445573024960368640)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: thanks so much for all the work on the /feed page!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: np!
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barnabywalters it needed it
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aaronpk yeah it was a bit of a mess
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aaronpk i hope there aren't too many other pages like that
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aaronpk you never know what someone is going to randomly stumble across
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cweiske how do I mark up the feed page on my homepage?
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aaronpk cweiske: there are some implementation notes at http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed
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cweiske with rss/atom, you just have to point the feed reader to the homepage, and it can extract the feed url from that
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cweiske with h-feed, there is no such thing
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barnabywalters aaronpk: just browse through http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:AllPages :)
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cweiske the feed reader as to work with the h-entries on the homepage
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cweiske but I cannot point him to a special all-entries-with-content page
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cweiske automatically
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aaronpk that's a valid concern, probably worth noting on the h-feed page
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aaronpk i have a similar problem, since my home page feed is really just notes, it doesn't include my articles or replies or anything in the /metrics page
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aaronpk I was thinking about making a separate page like /feed or /all and having everything go there
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aaronpk then my home page could point to that as some rel value
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barnabywalters aaronpk: in your case, I suspect that in 80%+ of cases, “what I want to put on my homepage” maps very nicely to “what people want to subscribe to when they put my URL in a reader”
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aaronpk yeah, I doubt people want all of my /metrics showing up in their reader
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barnabywalters cases like /metrics probably warrant a domain-specific rel value
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aaronpk yeah. my /replies are more of a blurry line tho
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barnabywalters so that I can go to any QS data processing app, sign in with my URL and automatically have it detect my feed
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah, as are any content-specific feeds
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aaronpk related: http://9to5mac.com/2014/03/17/this-is-healthbook-apples-first-major-step-into-health-fitness-tracking/
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aaronpk seems apple may take a stand trying to be the canonical place people store their health/qs data
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aaronpk and ios apps could publish data into the health datastore on the phone, similar to how passbook lets apps publish tickets onto the phone
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barnabywalters so the big question here is: for subscribing to particular feeds, is subscribing to specific URLs a good enough UI, or do feed readers need to be able to list linked feeds from any given page and give users the option to subscribe to one/all/multiple?
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aaronpk if that really is how this "healthbook" thing turns out, that's a huge step forward towards this: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices
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aaronpk barnabywalters: that's a great way of putting it.
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aaronpk when I think of adding someone to my reader, I think of their home page representing themselves in my UI, so I would want to enter only their home page and then see what I can subscribe to from there
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aaronpk otherwise there's a weird disconnect of having that person appear multiple times in my list of subscriptions
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aaronpk that seems like it could work out really well! enter someone's home page, and the reader can present a list of things it can subscribe to
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aaronpk the options being: h-feed on the home page itself, or other h-feeds that are linked off of the home page
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@zeldman RT @ShaneHudson: Nice shout out to #indieweb from @zeldman, in reference to the W3C wanting to look after their own data etc http://t.co/UY… (twitter.com/_/status/445579631379628033)
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@kevinmarks “@nrrrdcore: The Internet is beautiful in that it gives us all a voice. Don't ever let an organization own your voice.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/445579813852438528)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: crude mockup of what that could look like: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/personal-site-multiple-feeds-subscriber-mockup.png
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aaronpk barnabywalters: awesome
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barnabywalters where the preview would alter whenever the selected feeds changed, showing what it would look like in the reader
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aaronpk the reader's subscription checkboxes could even tell whether the feed is realtime-enabled and indicate that somehow
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barnabywalters and the links would have, for example, rel values of rel="feed", rel="feed metrics"
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barnabywalters so that dumb feed readers just treat them as feeds, smart ones can do other things with the special feeds
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barnabywalters aaronpk: sure, rel="feed realtime" or whatever
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aaronpk well I was thinking more like if it detects the PuSH hub on the feed then it knows
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barnabywalters aaronpk: that would be better
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aaronpk did I ever show you this? http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/sets/72157633041808362/ it's a twitter clone I was building back when building twitter clones was a thing
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aaronpk relevant because of the idea it had called "channels" http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/6475785463/in/set-72157633041808362
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aaronpk basically multiple feeds for a person, and rather than subscribing to the person's single stream, you could choose which "channels" to subscribe to
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barnabywalters aaronpk: like sandeepshetty/converspace’s tags/channels?
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barnabywalters or could posts only be posted to one channel in untied?
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aaronpk they were kind of like tags, yeah
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barnabywalters they’re somewhere on the tag-category spectrum :)
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barnabywalters a subscriber would have to remove duplicate posts possibly introduced by subscribing to multiple feeds
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aaronpk yeah although I feel like tags are not something people will subscribe to
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aaronpk the "channel" idea was meant to give the author a chance to put the content in the right place
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aaronpk with the expectation that people will be subscribing to 1-2 channels
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: nice feed reader mockup
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@BarnabyWalters Mocking up what an #indieweb subscription UI could look like: /img/personal-site-multiple-feeds… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4V6Fna/ (twitter.com/_/status/445587262244667392)
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: thanks! just posted a note with a little elaboration
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aaronpk so anyway I'm probably not going to go that route right now with my feed, but the more macro types of feeds (notes, articles, metrics) I will separate
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aaronpk does the <link> tag have a title attribute?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I believe so
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barnabywalters which would replace the innertext of visible links
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barnabywalters <a href="">text</a> ≈ <link href="" title="text" />
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barnabywalters IIRC title is a global attribute
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barnabywalters yep, https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Global_attributes#title
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aaronpk i like this plan
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aaronpk i'm gonna have to keep hacking on selfoss
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barnabywalters drove through selfoss yesterday
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aaronpk ha
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aaronpk awesome
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barnabywalters the town, not the waterfall
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aaronpk it's funny cause I thought the name of the reader was something about "self" and open source software
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aaronpk then I read that they named it after the waterfall
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@EliotLandrum @ShaneHudson Gotcha. I didn't realize trackback was complex. From end-user, seemed to be working fine. #indieweb @kartik_prabhu (twitter.com/_/status/445592773170040832)
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pfefferle aaronpk barnabywalters I would like to move the wordpress-indieweb plugin to the indieweb repo, because i am a bit busy atm and it would be cool if others (like will norris for example) could contribute... what do you think?
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aaronpk sure!
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barnabywalters pfefferle: sounds good to me, go for it
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pfefferle but you have to re-add me after i transfer the ownership ;)
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bnvk Are any of you cool cats considering applying to https://www.newschallenge.org for IW related projects ?
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aaronpk bnvk: there was some discussion about that in SF last weekend
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caseorganic indieweb efforts fit in well here
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: your relative webmention endpoint is breaking my sender :P
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bnvk aaronpk: consensus, no then?
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: heh, I’ll make a note to keep it like that so people can test their webmention implementations against it ;)
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KartikPrabhu yes... and I'll have to update ronkyuu to take care of it! cc: bear
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aaronpk bnvk: no there was a plan
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pfefferle aaronpk barnabywalters can someone add me to the indieweb group and give me admin rights (temporarily) because I can't do it without
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barnabywalters pfefferle: doing…
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pfefferle thanks
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bear updates from actual use is always a good thing KartikPrabhu :)
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aaronpk pfefferle: yeah one sec
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barnabywalters pfefferle: added
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aaronpk oh you beat me to it
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KartikPrabhu bear: raised issue on ronkyuu, will look into it!
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barnabywalters frantically tries to remember what that thing speedy gonzales says when doing something speedy
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pfefferle barnabywalters ok, done.
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pfefferle barnabywalters you can move me to a "team" that has admin rights only on the wordpress-repo if you like
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: arriba riba andale!
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: that’s it!
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KartikPrabhu also this is what I was trying to webmention: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/nice-indieweb-reader
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfer: some 500 error on bridgy/publish on trying to POSSE this: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/nice-indieweb-reader
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: some 500 error on bridgy/publish on trying to POSSE this: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/nice-indieweb-reader
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu \nick snarfer
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snarfer Loqi?
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Loqi snarfer: KartikPrabhu left you a message 49 seconds ago: some 500 error on bridgy/publish on trying to POSSE this: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/nice-indieweb-reader
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Loqi who, me?
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pfefferle barnabywalters aaronpk any problems with adding will norris to the group?
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: just subscribed to your notes so I can reply to that reply from my feedreader — the notes look great! the markup needs a couple of tweaks for optimal performance though
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barnabywalters (and I need to add debugging for these problems to indiewebify.me)
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KartikPrabhu of course. also mentions not workign on my notes yet... :)
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KartikPrabhu and markup feedback is always welcome...
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barnabywalters currently there is no in-reply-to property on the note h-entry, as there’s a bare h-cite
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bnvk aaronpk: oh cool, what sort of things were y'all thinking of for the Knight grant?
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barnabywalters see also http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://kartikprabhu.com/notes
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barnabywalters so you could fix that by just removing the h-cite class. the other thing is the dt-published — at the moment it’s only day-accurate, ideally it should be second-accurate with a timestamp
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: I accidently put the in-reply-to inside the h-cite. my bad... also will fix the datetime
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: great! currently raising these as issues on indiewebify.me
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@kartik_prabhu @EliotLandrum Most things on the #indieweb are changes to technologies, to make them easier for content creators. @ShaneHudson (twitter.com/_/status/445600874472022016)
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@kartik_prabhu @EliotLandrum @ShaneHudson A great example of #webmention at work is http://dunlaps.net/darius/2014/03/08/indieweb-camp/#comments (twitter.com/_/status/445601063047942144)
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bnvk aaronpk: I ask, as I've been chatting with the ArkOS dude about the idea of an Open AppStore concept that he, IndieBox, Freedom box, and other similar projects could use
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aaronpk oh? interesting
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bnvk Yah, it sounds really exciting, and really crucial to so many of these decentralized projects
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aaronpk what is the short version?
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bnvk Short version- like a short summary?
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aaronpk yea
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bnvk Ok, a globally shared core of HTML, JS, CSS, JSON that renders the interface and has basic instructions on the compatibility, where get source, deps, etc... for numerous FOSS apps that can be installed on a given platform
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bnvk whereby the platform (e.g. ArkOS) can then interpret the instruction set, render the App store in whatever interface is best suited, then allow users to install apps like PK3
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bnvk I was thinking bout forking https://prism-break.org/en/ and going from there
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bnvk aaronpk: does that make sense to you?
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aaronpk not sure if you're talking about making a directory service thing, or if you are talking about a convention for publishing app info on web pages
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bnvk hrm... more like a portable interface + assets + instruction data that works across different platforms
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bnvk but is accessed over a web browser
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bnvk reason being, all that data (name, source, compatibility, icons, etc...) is a lot of data to replicate, as well as getting the user experience of an App Store
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bnvk why not make something shared across projects
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bnvk so it's like a directory, in so much as an app store is a directory, and also a convention for installer scripts to injest
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barnabywalters bnvk: how about using project’s homepages, marked up with microformats, to get the data, rather than passing it around — that way it’s always up to date
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bnvk Ark is in Python, IndieBox is PHP, they could all consume JSON and then go off and handle actually installing Mailpile or Pk3 or what have you
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bnvk barnabywalters: sure, that would be great
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barnabywalters then all you have to pass around is a list of URLs
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aaronpk seems like a great example of building a domain-specific search engine that indexes microformat data
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bnvk yes, that could work well for the collection of the data
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barnabywalters so the challenge is coming up with a standard way of installing things
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barnabywalters and configuring them
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barnabywalters which I think indiebox is focused on
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barnabywalters or at least indiebox is focused on the plumbing
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bnvk yes, the installing process will be those developers goals
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bnvk or work
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 30 minutes ago: some 500 error on bridgy/publish on trying to POSSE this: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/nice-indieweb-reader
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snarfed !tell KartikPrabhu sorry about that! i saw it too. fixing now…
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed hey aaronpk, re wiki login expiration, does it use cookies on any domains besides indiewebcamp.com and indieauth.com?
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snarfed i'm still seeing short expirations but i wonder if i need to whitelist another domain
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aaronpk no cookies on indieauth.com
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aaronpk i'm still logged in to the wiki today from yesterday, so that seems like it's working for me now
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snarfed interesting, ok. still logs me out quickly, but i haven't dug much yet. could be my hardware. :P
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tommorris has just done a little design tweak to tommorris.org
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tommorris new typeface, slightly better spacing of said type. it’s now against an off-white grayish background rather than pure white.
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tommorris also, I’ve fixed the ‘expander’ (“read more”) stuff so that it doesn’t redraw so much.
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bret bnvk: Any possible overlap with Firefox os marketplace?
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bnvk bret: dunno how well any of this fits with there thing, haven't really explored what they are doing in any way
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standblog.org blog created /User:Standblog.org/blog (+67) "Created page with "==Tristan Nitot == *http://standblog.org/blog/ * http://nitot.com/"" (view diff)
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standblog.org blog edited /events/2014-03-12-homebrew-website-club (+93) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: snarfed left you a message 23 minutes ago: sorry about that! i saw it too. fixing now…
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bret Might be worth talking to deitrich about
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bret He know prrty much everything about ffos
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snarfed tommorris: nice! looks great!
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tommorris snarfed: thanks
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: bridgy/publish does not use absolute URLs for u-url? Is that coming from mf2py?
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KartikPrabhu have to rush. will read logs later
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: hmm. maybe! it doesn't do much (or any) post-processing of mf2py's output
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KartikPrabhu that is weird, I'll check
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aaronpk LOL
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/nprnews/status/445411730105978880
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@nprnews NPR RSS Error http://www.npr.org/rss/index.html?utm_source=npr&utm_campaign=nprnews&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/445411730105978880)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: ah, i see what you mean. the original post link at the end should always be absolute. i don't know where is more appropriate to do that, mf2py or bridgy, but i'm happy to put it in bridgy if you want
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aaronpk wow he really took this hard https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/445202472659738624
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@davewiner When people trash talk RSS, I remember the Wired cover story that said the Web is dead. https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/445202472659738624/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/445202472659738624)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: btw if you put another u-in-reply-to link in your post pointing to barnaby's tweet, it will make your tweet (preview) a reply
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bret snarfed: how come some of my twitter favs with links to my website dont get picked up by brigy?
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snarfed good question! got an example?
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snarfed looking at your recent responses now: https://www.brid.gy/#twitter-bretolius
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bret https://twitter.com/Strabd/status/444971018973487104
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@Strabd "Until then, we use what works -- for us." http://bret.io/2014/03/15/re-dave-winer/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/444971018973487104)
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snarfed bret: aha. that's because strabd isn't signed up
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snarfed bridgy doesn't (yet) find *any* tweet with links to your site. right now it's just tweets from signed up users
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bret I marked it as my favorite though
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bret does that not work?
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snarfed it used to, but not any more. :/
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bret awww
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bret ok
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/57
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snarfed tldr: that depended on using twitter's streaming api, and i suspect they got unhappy with me once i had "too many" users
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bret what if we gave you api keys
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aaronpk was the rate limiting scped to the IP address or to the key?
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bret and/or, how hard would it be to run a single user bridgy
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snarfed aaronpk: almost certainly app id, but it wasn't rate limiting, it just stopped working entirely
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aaronpk barnabywalters: have you noticed the wiki keeping you signed in longer?
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snarfed bret: you definitely could! pretty easy and single user would fit inside app engine's free quota. you'd have to do a bit of work to resurrect the streaming code, but should be doable.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: no, in fact I just had to sign in again :)
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aaronpk what's why I asked :)
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aaronpk did you check the "keep me signed in" box this time?
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snarfed aaronpk: ooohhhhhh snap. pebkac!!! i missed that too.
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snarfed heh
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barnabywalters aaronpk: oh, I didn’t see it — will check it next time
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aaronpk i'm not actually sure it does anything, but i'm curious if it does
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aaronpk (because we're using the indieauth extension instead of regular mediawiki logins)
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bret snarfed: maybe a HWC session on how to do it would be worth while
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snarfed hmm. maybe! not sure how much i want to encourage it, but i'll think about it.
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bret aaronpk: github pages resolving is still acting funny
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bret snarfed: ah ok
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aaronpk rwar
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snarfed bret: i'm definitely ok with very technical people trying it, but i'd rather not support lots of intermediate ppl in over their head with one-off installations
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snarfed aaronpk: huh. dumb question
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snarfed where's the "keep me logged in" checkbox?
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snarfed i just logged in and didn't see it on http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin
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aaronpk snarfed: it's on the login page
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aaronpk er, it was...?
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aaronpk now I don't see it either
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aaronpk so confuse
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+264) "Added basic h-entry markup" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+45) "/* Taproot */" (view diff)
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aaronpk so this happened: https://twitter.com/jc00ke/status/443095072750305280
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@jc00ke @davystevenson plz to rss/atom-ify your blog plz http://davystevenson.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/443095072750305280)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: the absolutization should be happening in mf2py according to spec. so i
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KartikPrabhu so i'll look into it.
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I have implemented absolute URLs https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py/issues/12 could you check if your mf2py version is up-to-date?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: yay, thanks, will do
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KartikPrabhu that was 13 days ago according to github
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KartikPrabhu it won't show in the mfparser web endpoint, as there it has no way to know the base URL
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snarfed aha, i'm using doc=, so i need to tell it the base url
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KartikPrabhu you can send both doc and url :)
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KartikPrabhu since you already knwo the url :D
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snarfed yup, exactly
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KartikPrabhu mf2py only retrieves the url through http if th doc is empty
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snarfed thanks KartikPrabhu! fix deployed.
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snarfed btw, in case i haven't said it before, your site looks really nice
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snarfed attention to design goes a long way
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: thanks! :)
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@TheOKCast RT @jalbertbowdenii: @TheOKCast maybe looking into #indieweb is a good start. breaking away from silos, having your data in your possession… (twitter.com/_/status/445633327757000704)
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KartikPrabhu UX question: who likes facebook's auto-playing videos?
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snarfed [crickets]
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snarfed hey aaronpk, did you ever hear back from instagram on commenting access?
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KartikPrabhu seems like no one! good...
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aaronpk snarfed: not a word yet!
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aaronpk interesting take on the indieweb & feeds issue: http://inessential.com/2014/03/15/indieweb_and_feeds
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KartikPrabhu did see it. I'd like to know the "exercise for the reader" bit
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aaronpk also interesting that Brent's reply changed the title to "Indieweb and Feeds" from Dave's original "Indieweb and RSS"
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KartikPrabhu it is weird that this whole argument is turning into "indieweb vs feeds" which is just plain wrong
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aaronpk indeed. I think that's mostly fueled by Dave's assumption that RSS is the only way to have a feed
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aaronpk so if you complain about RSS, you are complaining about feeds in general
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aaronpk i'm not sure what is the best way to fix this
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aaronpk I think Dave is probably unwilling to listen to any sort of reasonable discussion. However there are lots of other reasonable people who I don't want to give the wrong impression.
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KevinMarks he's willing to listen to any reasonable discussion that agrees with him
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bret He made a podcast on RSS, was looking to listen at some point
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bret probrably putting too much energy into this
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KevinMarks yes, in 2003 he comped me for Bloggercon and was interested in collaboration
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bret anyone who is willing to so quickly accept the picture he is painting would probrably be anoying to work on anything new
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KevinMarks Dave Winer has an indie viewpoint, and really did help bootstrap the distributed web of blogs
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bret thats what I respect about him
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bear KartikPrabhu - i'm looking at that rel webmention issue - is that even a valid webmention discovery link?
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KartikPrabhu it would seem so. there is not reason for webmention discovery links to be absolute
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aaronpk which issue?
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KartikPrabhu webmention endpoint is relative
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KartikPrabhu ronkyuu does not handle that yet
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bear i'm talking about the rel="webmention http://webmention.org" part
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aaronpk oh yeah, that's fine, it's ok to have multiple rel values
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KartikPrabhu oh! yes. multiple rels are ok
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aaronpk but at this point most consumers are looking for just "webmention" now, so you shouldn't really need to put the URL version there
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KartikPrabhu is ronkyuu not handling that either?
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bear no - it handles that just fine
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bear sees "webmention" and says "ok, i've found the endpoint"
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KartikPrabhu i think it checks for either
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KevinMarks URLS as rel values are a bad idea
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bear my question I guess is - is the http://webmention.org part of the rel supposed to be used as the base of the href part?
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aaronpk ah, no not at all
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KartikPrabhu bear: no.
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aaronpk the base URL should be the URL of the page the link tag is on
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bear ok - cool - that had me worried
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KartikPrabhu agrees with aaronpk
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bear right - I was all worried we were going to have relative urls with a special case for webmentions
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KartikPrabhu aah, I see your confusion now. No, i think just normalising to the URL of the document should be god
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KartikPrabhu good*
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bear k, i'll work on that issue now during my lunch
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KartikPrabhu bear: The issue is at this line https://github.com/bear/ronkyuu/blob/master/ronkyuu/webmention.py#L148 normalising before the check should be good. Also, maybe ronkyuu should not raise exceptions just return an error message of some sort
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bear raising exceptions I consider to be good library behaviour
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi bear has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu I see. then maybe my web front end should handle them better instead throwing a server error :P
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bear it's always a balancing act
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bear if the exception is somehting the library should handle, then yes we should detect, adjust or toss
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KartikPrabhu agrees. Will change that tonight or something
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bear the problem I see with fixing this at line 148 is that we are hiding that we are adjusting the webmention url during POST
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bear wouldn't we be better served to make sure that webmention url returned from the discovery is a full/complete url?
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KartikPrabhu bear: yes! that is a much better fix!
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bear k, I will add some url parsing to discoverEndpoint() to backfill missing scheme and/or netloc
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KevinMarks um "every time a company hires someone who is not a young male, they run the risk that the new hire isn't there to work, rather is there to scam you"
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KartikPrabhu wait, what!
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snarfed KevinMarks: link?
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caseorganic KevinMarks: yike
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KevinMarks http://scripting.com/2014/03/17/royWildstein.html
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kylewm KevinMarks: sounds like @ShitHNSays
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aaronpk wow
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kylewm That's his reaction to the Github thing??
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tantek I don't understand the point of the timing of that post.
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KartikPrabhu this seems some how (and badly) related to the whole Github fiasco
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tantek There is also a "simple" solution - always contract for 3 months (or less) and measure output deliberately. Then make the hire/nohire decision.
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aaronpk ok yeah lots of people are pissed off at him too http://pin13.net/8dD
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KartikPrabhu even if this is a true story, the "suggested" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) course of action is horrible
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tantek Yeah I don't think there's much chance of productive dialog there unfortunately, due to the inflammatory statements in the post. Better to direct focus, time, energy on other things.
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bear wow - that post just gets me all kinds of mad (being an older programmer myself)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - not just horrible, but irresponsible of someone who is still at least has some respect and leadership in his community.
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tantek bear, caseorganic and I were just talking about how happy we were with the broad age range of participants in IndieWebCampSF.
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kylewm on the bright side, people will probably stop talking about his iwc.com/feeds criticism
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. but from the previous controversy (RSS vs indieweb) my impression is the dave winer is very prone to extreme opinion
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tantek kylewm - I'm ok with feeds criticism and criticism criticism, as it helps better inform the broader space.
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bear tantek, caseorganic - yes I was very happy with not being the only gray hair present ;)
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tantek There is no joy to be gained from someone making bad public statements like that.
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tantek bear - am trying to help out with a bit of salt & pepper ;)
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bear lol
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kylewm tantek, sorry, I was being glib :) I agree with you and I think it already served to improve the contents of the page
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tantek yes - improving the contents of the page is the right "response" - and I'm very proud of this community for reacting in that way.
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tantek That above everything demonstrates the character of the culture we are building here.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: agreed. the response here definitely raised my respect for this community
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tantek glad to hear it KartikPrabhu, and you're a part of it and have helped make it that way. so thank you for being here and being you.
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@rederer nice and easy introduction to the #indieweb http://indiewebify.me/ (twitter.com/_/status/445658830685605888)
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KartikPrabhu here is a conversation about indieweb that went much more smoothly: https://twitter.com/EliotLandrum/status/445408553306562560
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KartikPrabhu I wonder if new visitors get the impression that indiewebcamp is some how trying to reinvent the wheel
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@EliotLandrum Been reading about #IndieWeb and it mostly seems like a lot of made-up terms to just describe blogging on your own site. I don’t get it. (twitter.com/_/status/445408553306562560)
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aaronpk this is also particularly interesting https://twitter.com/EliotLandrum/status/445592773170040832
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@EliotLandrum @ShaneHudson Gotcha. I didn't realize trackback was complex. From end-user, seemed to be working fine. #indieweb @kartik_prabhu (twitter.com/_/status/445592773170040832)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - we are, in that we are simplifying existing wheels, making them easier for independents to rebuild as often as necessary.
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aaronpk the end-user difference between trackback/pingback/webmention is that we are using webmention to have conversations across sites
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tantek aaronkpk - heh, maybe add an FAQ to /webmention accordingly?
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KartikPrabhu true. but we are improving on existing ideas, trying to make them better. Not just reinvent exactly the same thing. may be the wiki can enforce thi pov?
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tantek e.g. Trackback - spammed to the point of uselessness.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: what prevent spam in webmentions though?
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tantek also, Trackback - based on RDF inside HTML comments - horribly fragile
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aaronpk nothing yet :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - it's a matter of heights of barriers
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tantek Trackback was easiest to spam
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aaronpk and i'm already getting webmention spam via bridgy
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tantek Pingback was an improvement on that, in that it required verification of the linkback
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KartikPrabhu so it will be a problem soon. something we should acknowledge on the wiki.
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tantek Since webmention is merely a simplification of pingback, it *does* have the same potential spam vulnerabilities currently, and we're brainstorming how to improve on that
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tantek KartikPrabhu - it is acknowledged on the wiki
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KartikPrabhu oh ok :)
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aaronpk huh, not on the webmention page apparently
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aaronpk there's a whole spam page tho http://indiewebcamp.com/spam
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aaronpk specifically this header: http://indiewebcamp.com/spam#The_Coming_Spam_Storm
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tantek aaronpk - because the problem is not webmention "spam", the problem is comment spam
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KartikPrabhu aah. i guess there is no preventing people getting the wrong idea by just reading one page
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tantek kartikprabhu - right!
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aaronpk probably wouldn't hurt to link to the spam page from the webmention page
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kylewm KartikPrabhu, (new-ish visitor perspective) it definitely took a while before it "clicked" for me and I realized what was interesting/novel about what you all are doing. the difference between indieweb and "just posting on your own website" seems like it's hard to sum up in one or two sentences
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tantek we can reduce the chances of people getting the wrong idea, but we cannot eliminate it
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: same here
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tantek aaronpk - yes! do it! add a spam FAQ to /webmention
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tantek kylewm - it's why POSSE is front and center on the home page
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caseorganic for me the core is that you can post on your own site and send a copy to a social network, but you can also post the comments back from the social network to your site.
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caseorganic that is the key piece that made me excited about it
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KartikPrabhu also, examples on darius page http://dunlaps.net/darius/2014/03/08/indieweb-camp/#comments are a great iluustration of how POSSE + backfeed is just amazing
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caseorganic you get the data and the conversation. the advantages of a social network interface and network but all stored back on your own site
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KartikPrabhu I am sure there are more examples. Maybe putting them front and centre will help
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tantek KartikPrabhu - can't put everything front and center because then it becomes tl;dr
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kylewm tantek, yes, that made sense right away ... it's almost like forgiveness for people who feel guilty posting on silos (that whole idea of sharing with your friends where they are).
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tantek right!
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caseorganic POSSE + backfeed yes. I've found when I *show* someone POSSE and backfeed it clicks
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caseorganic So if there was a simple way to show it on the front page, it would click a bit faster
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caseorganic it would be a good diagram to draw up.
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tantek caseorganic - there is no simple way to show a list of examples - that's the problem
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tantek it's why I distilled the differences into three bullet points
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caseorganic tantek: precisely. i'll think more about this on the flight
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tantek more diagrams would likely help though
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tantek no matter what pages we put them on
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bear KartikPrabhu - possible solution pushed to ronkyuu - can you take a look and see if that fixes the issue you filed?
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tantek so please, yes, diagram on!
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tantek I'm putting a subhead on "differences"
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caseorganic tantek: great
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KartikPrabhu bear: will check it in the evening and report back
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+52) "subhead for differences" (view diff)
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bear KartikPrabhu - thanks!
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tantek kylewm, KartikPrabhu, caseorganic, take a look at the subhead I just added to the home page
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/
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tantek so the challenge with a home page like this is that some people are coming in with *no* clue, and just want the "what the heck is this" - which is what scottjenson's icons and summary statements do at the top
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tantek and then there's ANOTHER set of people who have *some* idea, from previous / similar ideas / approaches and want to know "what's different" - hence why it's important to next call that out on the home page
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caseorganic tantek: ah, that's useful!
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tantek caseorganic - which part? ;)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: would "beyond decentralized blogging" sound better?
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tantek KartikPrabhu - nah, because the "Beyond Blogging" is a strong alliterative hook that grabs people
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caseorganic I like "beyond decentralized blogging" because it is shorter. and it's a question that people have asked using those terms.
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tantek people will trim it optically when skimming anyway and see "Beyond Blogging ..."
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KartikPrabhu i feel it sounds a bit too jargony as it stands but might just be me
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aaronpk I don't understand what the other two words are doing there. "Beyond Blogging" sounds great to me
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kylewm "Beyond blogging" by itself is not terrible
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caseorganic It is a bit jargony. I like it but remove words until there are no words left to remove
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kylewm oh!
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tantek that's the key with good headings, to still read reasonably when people trim them while skimming
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caseorganic Beyond decentralized blogging is short
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caseorganic I have to go to the airport! I want to keep discussing, but don't want to miss my flight! Talk to you all later!
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aaronpk I think the number of people who recognize "Federation" in this context is probably pretty small
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tantek caseorganic - except the jargon criticism is correct
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caseorganic I think people have heard/use the term decentralized more
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tantek people read "beyond decentralized" and glaze
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caseorganic we don't want to mention federated
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tantek caseorganic ok!
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dangillmor i own beyondblogging.net and would donate it to indieweb
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-7) "/* Beyond Blogging Federation Decentralization */" (view diff)
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tantek dangillmor - awesome!
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kylewm ah I like "Beyond Blogging and Decentralization" a lot
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aaronpk dangillmor: whoa! that's awesome
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes much better sounding
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bear caseorganic why is federated an unwanted term?
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tantek I do think there are different "camps" of people who have either heard / think "blogging" a lot, OR have heard / think "decentralized" a lot
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aaronpk ah this header is great
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tantek thus I think "Beyond Blogging and Decentralization" captures both
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dangillmor was going to do a book with that title but got busy on other stuff...good to use it somehow
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aaronpk a whole book!
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tantek also, it shortens easily for discussion in to a TLA
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tantek Beyond BAD
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tantek :D
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tantek Beyond BFD also worked ;)
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tantek bear - "federated" as a term is both not well known by many people, and horribly misunderstood by most that use it
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tantek and the above points about jargon stand as well
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kylewm also, not to add more stuff, but I find caseorganic's point about making building stuff on the web fun again, playing in a sandbox, etc. really compelling ... suspect a lot of Gen 2er's like me would too
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tantek whereas "blogging" as a term has been strongly marketed
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tantek as has "decentralized" (e.g. bitcoin etc.)
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tantek even "redecentralize"
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bear ah - I can get the jargon part - it is only considered non-jargon in the messaging realm (aka XMPP and the like)
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tantek bear - right, and the messaging realm doesn't actually post anything persistent
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dangillmor used "re-decentralize" in a column the other week...
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bear and even there it's use is just slightly different from what we are dealing with here
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bear actually the latest round of XMPP updates to the spec now consider persistence to be a core part - just optional
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aaronpk whoa crazy
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bear (but that is just me being all XMPP cheerleader)
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tantek so the snarky (thus not advocating) response to tweets like "https://twitter.com/EliotLandrum/status/445408553306562560" - is to say yes, you can't understand IndieWeb by tweeting about it on someone else's (Twitter's) silo.
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@EliotLandrum Been reading about #IndieWeb and it mostly seems like a lot of made-up terms to just describe blogging on your own site. I don’t get it. (twitter.com/_/status/445408553306562560)
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@muhh was für eine traurige, lange Liste toter Sites http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/445664748487856129)
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tantek bear, I'd say a big difference with the indieweb is that we question wanting to be a cheerleader of any particular format or protocol, as compared to "design first"
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tantek I think that message was also lost on winer in the criticism of feeds (and his response of cheerleading RSS)
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bear then i'm causing confusion by using cheerleader without realizing the prior conversation
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tantek bear, it's ok, a lot of folks here came from a background of advocating formats or protocols first.
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tantek so it's up to us as a community to have a good transition path from that to design/UX first
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Loqi [mention] http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/17/3 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/feed (webmention)
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bear that's just it - we don't advocate just for that purpose (we being XSF) - and in our realm design/UX is much different
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bear hmm, I'm not getting my point across cleanly so i'll defer to another time when the day is not already full of multiple points that need chewing on :)
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tantek kylewm - brent is falling into the same format cheerleading trap, or you could say is stuck in the era of the RSS/Atom wars
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tantek RSS/Atom were so distracted in their own wars/battles/NoSD, that they've had zero innovation for 10 years, and left behind by the *design/UX* of FB, Twitter, etc.
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kylewm tantek, I think the section of Shutdowns in particular could be clearer about what the implication is
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aaronpk also *please* everyone stop conflating RSS with feeds
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kylewm oops, brb
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tantek NoSD = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences
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aaronpk I think most people who were not a part of the RSS/Atom wars don't even realize that using the term RSS is so loaded for that audience
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tantek aaronpk - right, a feed is just a feature of a home page
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tantek so we should have a new term for clustering RSS/Atom
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tantek feed files?
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bear ugh - I have so many bad memories of the RSS/Atom battles - I wasted so many years in that conversatin
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tantek bear, right, and yet, winer cadenhead and brent are happy to keep engaging on that battlefield (on various sides).
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KartikPrabhu tantek: feed formats?
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KartikPrabhu h-feed could then be another feed format based on html only
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bear when i'm my more cynical self the answer to that is: because their egos started the whole feud to begin with
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tantek not getting that that "battlefield" has long become irrelevant, or at best a caricature, perhaps just mildly entertaining, like knights jousting at a Ren Faire.
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tantek KartikPrabhu - except that hides the problem with RSS/Atom - which we want to call out - which is that they are separate files
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kylewm aaronpk, sorry, I absolutely made the mistake of conflating them.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hmm. then JSON copies would also fall in the same category....?
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aaronpk no worries, it's easy to do! just confuses the discussion with people from 10 years ago and now
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bear my only concern about trying to use html to represent a feed is that we may be entering hammer/nail territory
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tantek yes - AS/JS has the same problems
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gavinc Moving back to UX/Design. The instagram use case. Has anyone explored if the Take a Picture, make it "pretty", Write a Caption, Post it. Can work easily using just the browser?
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tantek AS/JSON that is
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tantek so yes, "feed files" includes RSS, Atom, ActivityStreams Atom, ActivityStreams JSON
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gavinc filter.io works great on the desktop but doesn't work on an iPhone
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kylewm I don't know why I posted a response to his post any way...I didn't think anyone would see it :)
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tantek gavinc - benwerd has done this with idno
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tantek he takes photos using idno *on his phone*, and posts them *to his own site*, and POSSEs them to Facebook, Flickr, Twitter
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tantek kylewm - no escaping the all-seeing Loqi
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KartikPrabhu tantek, gavinc: the part that seems troublesome is the "make pretty" bit
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tantek KartikPrabhu - yes "make pretty" is part of design/UX - and hence the top challenge / priority!
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aaronpk gavinc: why is using just the browser a requirement?
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gavinc aaronpk: 'cause I'll be damned if I'm going back to writing Objective-C and paying Apple for dev privileges? ... but I may be damned
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aaronpk android not an option? ;)
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gavinc Not if I want my Wife, Mother, Sister, or Self to be able to use it :P
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aaronpk :)
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tantek heh
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aaronpk i'm sticking with my iphone too fwiw
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KartikPrabhu android is the best (trying to be as flamy as possible)
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aaronpk the annoying thing is even the instagram clone iphone apps don't seem to have filters as good as instagram
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gavinc and since I started doing web development in WebObjects 4... no, I'm not really thrilled with the idea of going back to ObjectiveC
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tantek has stopped caring about photo filters. ;)
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aaronpk sometimes they can make a dark photo easier to see
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gavinc Yes, but everyone else hasn't
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aaronpk also I use the filters as a quick color correction often
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gavinc http://camanjs.com/ looks like it should work
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@m4rch RT @muhh: was für eine traurige, lange Liste toter Sites http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/445669373815324672)
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tantek aaronpk - I use VSCO to pre-process dark photos
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aaronpk hm yeah that would be a reasonable workflow, edit in VSCO then upload via a browser
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tantek gavinc - "everyone else hasn't" - see:http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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aaronpk i never actually take photos in instagram anyway, i always import photos from my camera roll
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gavinc ah, sorry "everyone" in this case referes DIRECTLY to aformentioned Sister, Mother, Wife ;)
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tantek aaronpk - right! I never take photos using the IG camera either - same reason
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gavinc eg, it's not my own site, they post way more photos and things then I do
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tantek gavinc, cool. build for yourself, then your loved ones. :)
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gavinc Exactly :D
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+19) "/* Trackback display */ main" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/muhh/445664748487856129/1081791 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/muhh/445664748487856129/445669373815324672 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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aaronparecki.com edited /webmention (+607) "/* FAQ */ add note about webmention spam" (view diff)
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aaronpk edits welcome ^
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bear as someone who has written a lot of code to consume rss, atom, opml and many many variations of those combined - I am viewing with a critical eye the "How To Consume" part of http://indiewebcamp.com/feed when compared/viewed with the "Criticism" part of the page
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aaronpk how so? what part in particular?
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bear the inefficient and the problematic/fragile part
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bear but I was just going to add "but I will use that uneasiness as a guide to making sure mf2 based feeds don't fall into those traps"
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aaronpk cool
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bear because I remember a lot of the discussions around Atom at the time were similar in nature as to some of what I see happening with mf2 feeds now
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tantek.com created /Trackback (+2101) "stub with definition, supersedings, criticism, display, see also" (view diff)
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aaronpk maybe you could clarify the "inefficient" point there
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aaronpk i would be curious to read about what you saw with Atom
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tantek.com created /trackback (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek edits welcome, but at least we have a "Trackback" page to point to for any historical purposes or when someone is somehow still clinging to it (like that previous tweet)
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bear to be very honest I have avoided writing any posts about my earlier experiences with Atom to avoid having battles with the RSS folks
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aaronpk heh reasonable
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aaronpk maybe wiki edits are less likely to result in getting in a battle?
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bear true
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bear I will add that to my wiki gardening todo list
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bear again, I am cautiously optimistic that the IWC scene is avoiding a lot of the pitfalls because of the shared lessons from earlier work that lead up to mf2
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+175) "/* How does this solve the spam problem */ links, note webmention receivers in practice using h-entry raises the barrier a little for spammers" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - yes exactly (wiki edits)
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tantek bear - where do you keep your wiki gardening to do list?
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bear on my desk
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bear if you want, I will create a wiki page for it and that way you can suggest things
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bear i'm often in need of something to do for 20 minutes and I often turn to wiki gardening to fill that time
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tantek bear, why not as a flat list here? http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Bear.im :)
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bear if i'm honest with myself - habit
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bear will create one now
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tantek yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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tantek.com edited /pingback (+45) "note pingback superseded trackback" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /User:Bear.im (+698) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu the whole winer business seems to have caught a few eyes: https://twitter.com/beep/status/445675548749352961
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@beep we have reached peak winer (twitter.com/_/status/445675548749352961)
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@caseorganic "This presentation cannot be opened b/c it is too old." Another reason to host HTML presos on your site. #indieweb http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/03/17/2/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/445687682555854848)
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tantek heh
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@akfarrell RT @caseorganic: "This presentation cannot be opened b/c it is too old." Another reason to host HTML presos on your site. #indieweb http://… (twitter.com/_/status/445688817953935361)
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@kevinmarks RT @caseorganic: "This presentation cannot be opened b/c it is too old." Another reason to host HTML presos on your site. #indieweb http://… (twitter.com/_/status/445689662456074240)
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tantek !tell caseorganic - need to post a screenshot of that "This presentation cannot be opened b/c it is too old." !
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek a-ha: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MNU6MDZahlA/UyciykBx0BI/AAAAAAAACec/f0-tw_N21ek/w640-h400-p-k/Screen%2BShot%2B2014-03-17%2Bat%2B17.28.40.png
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tantek is that viewable by anyone NOT logged into G+?
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snarfed yes
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tantek amaze
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KartikPrabhu i second the viewable
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nslater tantek: reading through http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/19402946/NewBase60
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nslater tantek: have you seen https://secure.flickr.com/groups/api/discuss/72157616713786392
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nslater tantek: specific, base58. seems to do the same thing
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nslater tantek: bitcoin uses something similar: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Base58Check_encoding
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tantek had to restart.
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kylewm when one POSSEs a photo to twitter, you can either send the file itself with update_with_media, or you can link back to your site and implement a Twitter Card (https://dev.twitter.com/docs/cards/types/photo-card). Any preferences one way or the other?
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bear KartikPrabhu - will the question you posed in the github issue handle if scheme and/or netloc are missing from the relative url? (or is that not even an issue)?
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aaronpk I implemented twitter cards becacuse it seemed easier than using the photo api
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aaronpk but i'm debating switching to use the photo api soon
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aaronpk i feel like it provides a better experience on twitter that way
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tantek kylewm - interesting question. I'd lean towards posting a copy of the photo to Twitter just to further distribute the use of Twitter kind of like a CDN for your photos
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tantek I believe people see a larger version of the photo via a phototweet than a Twittercard
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tantek also, the usual avoid metacrap advantage
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kylewm aaronpk, tantek, thank! exactly what I was wondering
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kylewm thanks*
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aaronpk (there is a custom twitter card for photos which will show a large photo)
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tantek (but not as large as a native tweetphoto)
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aaronpk flickr uses that I believe
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kylewm aaronpk, if you end up implementing update_with_media, I wrestled with it a bit last night
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kylewm might have a tiny bit of insight about oauth with it
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aaronpk twitter cards won't appear inline in the timeline, wheras photo tweets do
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tantek still, using the TwitterAPI hides the proprietariness, whereas using twittercards means your own website has proprietary metacrap on it
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tantek and sets a worse example for others that may view source
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kylewm ohh proprietary metacrap
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tantek benwerd implemented Twitter photos POSSE
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tantek into idno
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tantek aaronpk, another good point!
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kylewm cool, does he come by IRC?
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kylewm benwerd that is
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tantek we should probably collect these into a "how to POSSE photos" to Twitter summary
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tantek he does!
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Loqi yea
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tantek aaronpk - well done with wiki updates, moving sponsor images to footer!
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aaronpk yeah! looks way nicer now!
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tantek so much cleaner
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kylewm I'd be happy to take a crack at wiking Twitter POSSE stuff
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nslater tantek: not sure if you saw my last message due to your restart. trying to decide encoding schemes for my own url dates. how would you say NewBase60 is superior to base58? at the moment, i'm feeling tempted to just go with date ordinal, as it seems short enough
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tantek kylewm - have you read the existing Twitter POSSE stuff?
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tantek nslater - saw it just before restarting, still catching up on logs :/
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kylewm tantek, I'm sure I have, but it's been a while. Wouldn't hurt to re-read
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nslater gotcha
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tantek kylewm - I'm actually wondering about would it be better to document POSSEing photos on the Twitter page, or on the /photos page
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tantek and I'm kind of leaning towards the latter, just because I think POSSEing photos makes sense in the context of implementing photo posts
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tantek and photos ought to be primarily POSSEd to photo silos like Flickr, whereas Twitter is more of a "downlevel" experience. And maybe FB too.
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KevinMarks what do you mean by downlevel?
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kylewm there's one very specific bit about how you do oauth on photo posts, that I kinda think belongs on the Twitter page next to replies/reposts/favorites
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kylewm at least that's where i would look for it
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tantek downlevel - lower fidelity
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tantek weird
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kylewm !me is weird?
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kylewm fail!
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kylewm is weird?
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snarfed kylewm, posseing pictures to twitter (and fb) is on my todo list for bridgy too. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85
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tantek kylewm weird that that's on the page and where it is.
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snarfed happy to compare python api snippets. mine so far is in create() and related methods in https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/twitter.py and https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/facebook.py
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kylewm tantek, oh it's not there now, i meant that I would write it up if i were writing notes about posse photos to twitter. i guess that kind of technical detail does not really belong on the wiki?
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tantek we don't shy away from technical detail, but we might put details on separate subpages
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tantek !tell benwerd when you did start POSSEing photo posts to Twitter? Do you have an example of an early photo post with Twitter POSSE copy?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm snarfed, cool! I didn't do anything special for facebook, just added picture=url (of whatever the first image is in a given post) to the post arguments. twitter was more interesting
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@GeekGawk #geek #nerd #gamer: Indieweb and Feeds - Dave Winer: If this article about feeds on the IndieWeb... http://www.geekgawk.com/2014/03/15/indieweb-and-feeds/ #GoogleReader (twitter.com/_/status/445711197237567490)