#indiewebcamp 2014-04-02

2014-04-02 UTC
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kbsriram.com edited /authorship (+315) "update links, point to sample pastebin" (view diff)
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tantek tilgovi - annoying that "public-*" isn't already implied
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tantek and that "private-*" whatever could be the exception
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tantek thanks kbs
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tantek and thanks aaronpk and barnabywalters for hosting the spoofed content
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kbs no worries - good discussion too :) appreciate the insights
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tantek it's useful to have a real world example to point to
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tantek to illustrate the problem
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tantek brb. restarting to clear out VM. darn leaky browsers and other apps. :/
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tantek KevinMarks what's your ETA at 21A? I may stop by depending on how late at work etc.
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pauloppenheim aaronpk: catching up with backlog, i think most people feel burned by REST after using it, basically variations on: Oh this is cool -> i guess i can sandwich these weird cases in with these verbs -> dammit I need self-defined verbs and error codes, this is causing bugs and downtime -> <sound of pitchforks and torches>
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pauloppenheim like the stages of grieving
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tantek huh that's pretty funny
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KevinMarks About 6:45
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KevinMarks If we have three webmention hosting services, can we converge the APIs?
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KevinMarks Documenting the difference
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pauloppenheim is webmention a misnomer now? webnotify? webping? webheysomeonesaidsomethingaboutyou?
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KevinMarks "someone said something about you" is a longwinded way of saying mention
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KevinMarks And that is the key. They do need to link to you
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pauloppenheim actually, that's a misnomer
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pauloppenheim i was making a funny, but it backfired
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pauloppenheim because it is now also someone said something *to* you
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KevinMarks Websubtweet
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pauloppenheim LOL
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pauloppenheim webindirectimplication
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KevinMarks No, because they didn't necessarily send the mention
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pauloppenheim but how perfectly passive aggressive would that be, amirite
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pauloppenheim anyway
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pauloppenheim "mention" seems to be getting stretched a bit
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KevinMarks If barnaby writes a crawler, it could send the mentions
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KevinMarks Which is closer to the Technorati case
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pauloppenheim but i guess it's just a name, and it's pretty good for now
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KevinMarks WebVisiblyLinkedToYou
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pauloppenheim but it might not even be visible anymore!
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pauloppenheim private messaging
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pauloppenheim i mean, it's an amazingly simple little idea, that small kernel can be used for so many asynchronous things
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pauloppenheim tantek: i know you laughed earlier, but there is a provably secure microkernel: http://ssrg.nicta.com.au/projects/seL4/
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pauloppenheim tantek: it's also one of the most used pieces of software in the world
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pauloppenheim tantek: in 2012 1.5 billion devices, ref: http://www.ok-labs.com/releases/release/ok-labs-software-surpasses-milestone-of-1.5-billion-mobile-device-shipments
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tantek pauloppenheim: webmention is fine, because it refers to the lowest common semantic denominator
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tantek re: provably secure microkernel - interesting - open source?
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pauloppenheim tantek: yeah
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pauloppenheim tantek: it's a whole world of its own, i still haven't spent enough time digging into it, but anyone who's been in mobile for a while should know a bit about it
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pauloppenheim "the final turtle"
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tantek if it's open source
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tantek then you get to the question of the hardware
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tantek and how much of that is open hardware
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tantek and then the manufacturing thereof
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pauloppenheim MIPS, ARM, x86
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tantek so no, it's not a "final turtle", by any means
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pauloppenheim oh right, of course
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tantek because from a security perspective, exploits can be introduced at any of those layers, and *have* been
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pauloppenheim but as far as the software part goes
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tantek basically, since we can't trust USB charging cables and USB sticks, we're basically toast.
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pauloppenheim tantek: there're certainly more details to it, but the tools exist if you have the right practices
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tantek um, I'm not sure the tools exist for fab verification except to very rich entities
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tantek that's part of the problem
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pauloppenheim tantek: rogue USB should not be able to take down seL4
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KevinMarks Or SD cards or batteries
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tantek we're not actually going to "solve" this until we can "compile" the hardware ourselves from open hardware specs on our home replicators
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tantek and even then - the replicators themselves have to be self-inspectable
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pauloppenheim there's mitigation for much of this
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tantek to make sure they're not compiling in any exploits
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pauloppenheim i hate to hand wave, but i'm already beating a dead horse by posting that source
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tantek pauloppenheim: I used to believe that. not any more. not since the USB cable/stick exploits.
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KevinMarks Right, there's the Ken Thompson attack
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tantek at this point we have to assume that well-off attackers have access to those vectors
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pauloppenheim tantek: there are several replies to the classic "trusting trust" paper these days
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tantek so we're basically stuck. until we can rebuild things inspectably from scratch.
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tantek and those will be interesting times.
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pauloppenheim no, there are mitigations
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pauloppenheim finding references right now
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tantek don't worry - don't have time to read them anyway
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tantek and they're likely just the usual probabilistic stuff
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pauloppenheim tantek: aha, schneier covered it! https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html
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tantek good to know the name of the attack
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KevinMarks you can write Compiler B yourself for a computer you built yourself from vacuum tubes that you made yourself.
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KevinMarks Now that's full stack engineering
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KevinMarks Weird, Firefox doesn't show up in the running apps ux on android
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tantek KevinMarks - I'm hoping for matter compiler access to transistors at least as a starting point :)
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tantek rather than vacuum tubes
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pauloppenheim KevinMarks: see also http://homepage.ntlworld.com/edmund.grimley-evans/bcompiler.html
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KevinMarks This reminds me of QuickTime - we had a special compiler for release builds that took ages but was measurably better at optimising
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tantek KevinMarks - I seem to remember that for PPC in general
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tantek when at Apple
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KevinMarks Yes, it was some IBM compiler
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tantek right
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tantek and I think we used MetroWerks as the "fast" compiler that produce not as optimal code
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KevinMarks Then of course there is the accidentally Turing complete problem http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
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pauloppenheim oh codewarrior
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KevinMarks QT was built on all kinds of weird systems. Breaking the build on solaris or Windows nt was an issue
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KevinMarks Endian macros
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KevinMarks I'm reflecting on this after the annoying experience with qt (the other one) earlier
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pauloppenheim KevinMarks: i saw that indiecreddit uses qt - should it build cross-platform?
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@benwerd I'd missed this, but it's a great introduction to the #indieweb and why it's interesting: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/451165922418388992)
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KartikPrabhu :D
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KevinMarks Yes, it should, but I had trouble getting a usable binary on Mac OS
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tantek Yeah KartikPrabhu! :)
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KartikPrabhu can I haz indiecred?
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tantek KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 17 karma
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KevinMarks You can build it...
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pauloppenheim cool
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KevinMarks I need to work out why it isn't generating any coins yet
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KevinMarks I think there is a parameter that wants a long enough blockchain first
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pauloppenheim KevinMarks: are there any transactions yet?
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pauloppenheim prb
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KevinMarks Which is a bit chicken and egg
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KevinMarks Can't have transactions without coins
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pauloppenheim hey man, i only read the code, i don't use the stuff ;)
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pauloppenheim KevinMarks: genesis block should have made some
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KevinMarks Well, I was mostly following a recipe
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KevinMarks So how do I find them?
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KevinMarks I need to inspect the blockchain better
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KevinMarks Seeing as I started at 9pm and finished at 8am I was getting a bit fuzzy at that point
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pauloppenheim KevinMarks: http://www.righto.com/2014/02/bitcoin-mining-hard-way-algorithms.html
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KevinMarks Right, this is two or three forks from that
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pauloppenheim oh yeah
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pauloppenheim hmm
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KevinMarks I need a blockchain Explorer for lightcoin
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: I'd missed this, but it's a great introduction to the #indieweb and why it's interesting: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/451168637307457536)
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KevinMarks I need to go back and read some code
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KevinMarks The point of this exercise for me is to understand this stuff more, as well as lulz
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kbs pauloppenheim (and bnvk if you're awake) good time to talk about pgp :)?
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pauloppenheim kbs: i can briefly
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kbs have you been playing with something already? I saw aaronpk and sandeep's quick demo on /pgp - that's about all I know on what's already been done
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pauloppenheim kbs: i don't have a working piece of software, if that is what you are asking
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kbs or ideas too - think this is very much in the thinking stage for me at least
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pauloppenheim due to crypto being crypto, i'd love to have as little of my own code as possible;
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pauloppenheim i've been talking about several different ways to do private messaging with several people, at which point i decided to take more of the "code or gtfo" mantra and only talk about what works today
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pauloppenheim kbs: your quick demo is probably the most impressive thing going, but it's also not web
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pauloppenheim but it *is* indie! :D
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kbs yep. makes sense. I sort divvied thingh up into auth, sign and encrypt
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kbs over at http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp#Secure_communication so maybe we can all put ideas there
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kbs I think the auth bit is probably quite reasonable to layer on top of the indieauth rel=me mechanism - all it takes really is to add a fingerprint to either a "silo"'s profile site or lnk to a tweet/post etc
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pauloppenheim kbs: ahh, i think the private messaging page has more
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kbs yea. I have a feeling that having a browser-based client is probably somewhat orthogonal [to my conception at least :)] of indieweb
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pauloppenheim kbs: http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts
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kbs ah, thanks - looking...
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pauloppenheim kbs: yeah, i don't think crypto in-browser makes sense
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kbs ah yes - I have looked at this page
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kbs so my feeling here is that this is acls implemented by the server, and I'd love to see an even more resiliant structure [ie, end-to-end] if at all possible
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kbs I was thinking that aaronpk and sandeep's idea might basically be the thing to build upon - but I had a couple of gotchas surrounding it
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pauloppenheim kbs: yes, this is server ACLs
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kbs one thing I note about webmentions as it stands, is that it's susecptible to an amplification atatck
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pauloppenheim kbs: yeah, as i mentioned at the meetup, i think using both together is a good idea
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kbs ah - that's an interesting thought indeed
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pauloppenheim kbs: yup, but depending on what you implement, that might not be a problem
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kbs thinks
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kbs so I'm not sure how to avoid amplification without some extra params to the web-mention
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pauloppenheim kbs: webmention is pretty fluid
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pauloppenheim but also there's the kernel of identity in here
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pauloppenheim source url should be somewhat known
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pauloppenheim and if not, possibly queued
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kbs but the sender of the webmention is not, which is where I see the issues coming from...
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kbs eg
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pauloppenheim i mean, it could lead to you pummeling a known place, if there's no domain rate limiting
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pauloppenheim you could flood two co-conspirators out from each other, but that could be detected and worked around with new params, as you said
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pauloppenheim you could even sign the mention and attach that
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pauloppenheim so many solutions :)
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kbs yep! If I am forced to add a signature - that would do it, that's what I was thinking of as well
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pauloppenheim kbs: if there's a problem domain, ie, mallory is tryiing to keep you and I from messaging
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pauloppenheim kbs: then i can talk with you and we can do sig exchange, if we have keys
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kbs yea [or the less secure but probably more usable method of the rel=me fingerprints]
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pauloppenheim kbs: there's also some even more fun ideas i have, like having different webmention endpoints for logged in users
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kbs do tell
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pauloppenheim kbs: a general extension of sign-in - in addition to suddenly seeing more data (such as my phone number) you also see the existing data change - my non-marked email for instance, and so the webmention link could be different as well
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KartikPrabhu pauloppenheim: I seems that a little waiting and the months filter in Django 1.6 started working?! some sort of python cache ing happening?
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kbs ah - so you indieauth a user, then proceed from there
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kbs nice, gotcha.
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: i can't recall the specifics, but is it an apache mpm_prefork issue? workers holding bad state with too long of a lifecycle?
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pauloppenheim kbs: yeah, basically going back to the iceberg model
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KartikPrabhu it happened on local server and now on my apache, don't recall specifics of server
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KartikPrabhu apologises for interupting conversation flow!
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pauloppenheim kbs: "oh, this is what the world actually looks like" (yes, to *you*, my mom sees something different from that too)
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: no prob
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: it's irc :)
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kbs pauloppenheim: gotcha.
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kbs (and ditto KartikPrabhu)
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KartikPrabhu :)
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KartikPrabhu me got short urls working! http://kartikprabhu.com/n/3QFQqy cc: tantek, kylewm (thanks for the base60 code)
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: well, i recall you tried the query and it actually showed data manually, and then there was confusion about the state of database connections
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kbs so as far as actual code goes, it so happens that I have some appengine thing going on for an unrelated project [basically it behaves as a store-and-forward system for transient, signed messages] and probably might not be too hard to repurpose it as a store-and-forward webmention thing
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kbs has a static site, and works entirely via cron jobs and random scripts
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KartikPrabhu pauloppenheim: yes then I gave up and wait and after a few days of doing other unrelated things it worked!
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pauloppenheim KartikPrabhu: unfortunately i have seen many web apps not behave well with mod_wsgi and apache worker pools, whether fork or thread
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tantek KartikPrabhu: Woot!
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Loqi giggles
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pauloppenheim kbs: yeah, my site is also primarily static, not very interested in busying up a computer for every request that comes in over the network willy-nllly
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kbs pauloppenheim: great - hopefully whatever either of us build will work for the other :)
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pauloppenheim kbs: sounds reasonable to use that codebase if you think it works
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pauloppenheim kbs: and if not, we can debug here :)
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kbs I've slowly been putting together a locally running server that does the auth validation bits bits [ie, given a url - find keys, rel=me links to various silos, and validates fingerprints on silos.]
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pauloppenheim kbs: your own indieauth node?
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kbs pauloppenheim: something like that yea. So it's basically a locally running java web server with a browser that's essentially a UI to it. I feed it a URL (say, http://waterpigs.co.uk/ - it goes there, figures out the h-card etc, find's theres a key, then chases rel=me links for fingerprints
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kbs trying to be a crude contact manager app really - although right now all it's doing is validating rel=me links, and potentially also keys and fingerprints
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kbs eg: barnaby has chosen to syndicate his fingerprint (marked as rel='pgp-fingerprint') to twitter
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kbs I follow that link, and check taht it actually belongs to @barnabywalters - and that this profile is also a rel=me link.
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pauloppenheim ahh, like a more reasonable keybase.io
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pauloppenheim actually checking the network of keys and re-verifying
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pauloppenheim i like that
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pauloppenheim in some ways i'm not super worried about trying to see if a key is authentic online
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pauloppenheim i've got my own key store, i just check that
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pauloppenheim kbs: not sure how much of that your caught before network flake
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kbs` I'll catch up from the web logs - think this connection from my phone is getting more and more flaky :)
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tantek.com edited /https (+133) "sessions section, link to etherpad for now (needs archiving to wiki!)" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: do you include your permashortlinks in your posts for others to use? or is it just for personal POSSEing
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KartikPrabhu eh, the question is more along the lines of "should I" or "why not"...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I used to have permashortlinks in my posts for copy/paste
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KartikPrabhu any reason you removed them?
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tantek but eventually I decided it was not a significant enough of a use-case to keep them in the UI of the site
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tantek … in the UI of my posts
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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GWG How should a post sent from a personal site to a Siloed site be formatted is a question that occurs to me based on that statement.
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tantek so now mostly for POSSEing
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tantek GWG - lots of write up on that question on the /Twitter page
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tantek and welcome GWG!
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KartikPrabhu points to tantek's answer instead of wrting a long one
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tantek GWG, go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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KartikPrabhu need indieauth for that no?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes of course :)
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tantek it's an encouragment to get it working
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KartikPrabhu yup :)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: does bridgy send mentions to everything that you have POSSEd when you first enable it?
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GWG I
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I do include the permashortcitation in all my posts so that it is googlable
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KartikPrabhu hmm interesting
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GWG I'm still new around here. May ask some questions.
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tantek i.e. if you *search* for the permashortcitation at the end of my POSSEd tweets / fb posts, you will find the *original* post via google
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I want to get some sample backfeeds to play with so I can have better webmention receiving test cases
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tantek in that way, I use the permashortcitation kind of lik a per-post watermark
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KartikPrabhu think PSC is a cool idea... too bad it didn't catch
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tantek so that even if/when spammers copy my posts, they end up copying my watermark too
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yeah I don't know anyone else who is publishing them currently, though I've seen folks experiment with them
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: it goes back a ways, yes
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snarfed not forever, but a ways
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KartikPrabhu aah ok wth... my parsing is so messed up that I can mess it up more with pre-mature bridgy mentions :)
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KartikPrabhu signing up for bridgy twitter :)
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snarfed woot!
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Loqi woot
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snarfed loqi you should sign up too
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Loqi who, me?
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KartikPrabhu ok signed up this will be a shit show
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kartik_prabhu/451117225496174593/451117546897670148 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/icons (webmention)
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snarfed :P yeah a few 500s
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KartikPrabhu heh!
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snarfed all part of the game
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KartikPrabhu don't worry about errors from me yet... I'll get to fixing those
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snarfed np!
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GWG tantek: Am I a regular though? Going to go read that Twitter page though
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tantek GWG - hopefully! if you're already looking at questions of how to POSSE your content
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KartikPrabhu GWG: asking questions is the best way to start...
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KartikPrabhu don't need to be a regular
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GWG Understood. It just said regular. I will add in a bit.
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GWG tantek: You are one of the people organizing the IndieWebCampNYC, I see?
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tantek yes!
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GWG I am a New Yorker.
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tantek.com created /2014/SF/https (+2863) "archive the notes from the etherpad" (view diff)
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tantek GWG - awesome!
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tantek let's get you setup on IndieAuth then
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tantek.com edited /https (-26) "/* Sessions */ make it into its own page" (view diff)
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GWG I'm set up on indieauth.
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tantek sweet! then definitely add yourself to the /irc-people page
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tantek let's start with that :)
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GWG I already had registered GWG on IRC.
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tantek no problem
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GWG I think I need a User page to link to first.
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KartikPrabhu does anyone POSSE to flickr? trying to convert a friend to indieweb!
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GWG I'm sure there is a template somewhere here...
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GWG Will find it
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I made my userpage yesterday. no hurry :P
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GWG KartikPrabhu: How long have you been involved here?
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KartikPrabhu eh... months at least
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KartikPrabhu was just making things... then added to userpage :)
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GWG Not sure I like my username, being as it is my domain name.
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GWG That seems a bit long.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: i think identifying yourself with your url is the point :)
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KartikPrabhu btw which one of the long usernames is yours?
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tantek !tell aaronpk looks like the IndieWebCamp logo (http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/skins/indieweb/indiewebcamp-logo-500px.png) is the only thing preventing https://indiewebcamp.com/https from being fully HTTPS
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu my MySQL database gave an error due to too long SQL!!
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KartikPrabhu another reason to switch to no DB
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GWG Did I miss anything? My bouncer went down.
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KartikPrabhu check the irc logs... https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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GWG This is what happens when you pay only $19 a year for your server
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GWG Hmm...so you didn't see me answering your question
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GWG Okay.
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KartikPrabhu nope
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog#responses shows the shittiness of my webmention parsing! :P
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snarfed lol
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snarfed it's a start!
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snarfed step by step
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snarfed great that they're there!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I had asked you where the usernames list is. I was curious to see who had a username longer than mine
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KartikPrabhu GWG: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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KartikPrabhu notice also that a lot of them do not have a userpage
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GWG I would be the longest
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KartikPrabhu GWG: someone has to be :P
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: at least that gives me a lead into how to improve it
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KartikPrabhu is there documentation for the format of bridgy's mentions?
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snarfed format?
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snarfed of the source pages?
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snarfed they're just mf2. you're welcome to look at one if you want, you can fetch the source URL that it sends
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KartikPrabhu aah yes of course :)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: retweet is considered a "like-of" not "repost-of" ?
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snarfed no, it should be repost-of
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: eh! sorry. was looking at the wrong tab!!
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KartikPrabhu must sleep...
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snarfed :P
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GWG What is this sleep thing?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yeah I said that on monday... not a good decision
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GWG Never enough hours.
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KartikPrabhu specially if you have three diff. things to do
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KartikPrabhu make that four
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Good luck?
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KartikPrabhu thanks! I'm out peace \m/
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erinjorichey.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+251) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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@erinjo @stephandle If you're available, you should consider coming to IndieWebCamp Cambridge this Oct. We'd love to have you http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (twitter.com/_/status/451228514029563904)
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kylewm snarfed: hey good evening! do you know why i'm getting error 500 from bridgy publish? I tried to run this from the command line curl -d 'source=http://kylewm.com/note/2014/04/02/1&target=http://brid.gy/publish/facebook' https://www.brid.gy/publish/webmention
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snarfed hey kylewm! not sure. first place i'd look is the log, linked from your user page
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snarfed https://www.brid.gy/facebook/12802152 , the "X ago" links under "Recently published"
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kylewm oh cool, I had not seen that before
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snarfed looks like facebook itself is returning a 500 :/
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pauloppenheim hey man, sometimes when you gotta go, you gotta go
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kylewm oh? i couldn't tell if it was coming from them or me
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snarfed i wonder if it's the newlines. i can take a todo to strip them
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snarfed yeah, looking at the log, the 500 comes from urllib2.urlopen of an fb api call
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snarfed https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1396416569&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lySgsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiI2h0dHA6Ly9reWxld20uY29tL25vdGUvMjAxNC8wNC8wMi8xDAsSB1B1Ymxpc2gYgICAgIDyiAoM
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kylewm Just tried it with one without newlines
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kylewm same deal
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kylewm oh or at least... i don't intend for it to have newlines, but it looks like it still does
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snarfed right
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snarfed that's just a random guess, not at all sure it's the cause
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snarfed but i'll try in a bit
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kylewm thanks! no hurry of course, i am just messing around
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snarfed deploying that change now. i give it maybe 1 in 3 that it works
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kylewm i said no hurry!
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kylewm ;)
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snarfed yup. you caught me at a good time
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snarfed deployed, feel free to try again
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kylewm hrmph, same thing
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snarfed yeah. sorry :/
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kylewm love opaque error messages, although i guess 500 means "something bad happened and we dont' even know what it was"
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snarfed yeah. there may be a response body. sad that i'm not surfacing it
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KevinMarks It means PHP, dudes, who even knows Bro
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snarfed :P
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snarfed fb does 500 my api calls surprisingly often
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kylewm i can just ask you what i was trying to find out -- does bridgy send back the ID of the published post? i'm guessing that would require it to be synchronous
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snarfed yes and yes
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kylewm rad, thanks you
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snarfed the response is json with id and url params, and sometimes more
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snarfed not much more for fb, but for twitter you get a full tweet api entity
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snarfed i should document that on https://www.brid.gy/about . i'll take a todo
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Loqi it is probable
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kylewm still trying to figure out how i want to do syndication ... can never seem to get automatic formatting/posting quite right
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kylewm i sort of like the stopgap solution that i think willnorris said he uses where there are just silo-provided "share this on ..." links in his posting ui. but then i don't think there is a way to know the id of the created post
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/erinjo/451228514029563904/451234730944790528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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aaronpk kylewm: i think he said that some silos return the ID in the js callback and others don't. not sure if he documented it anywhere.
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 46 minutes ago: looks like the IndieWebCamp logo (http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/skins/indieweb/indiewebcamp-logo-500px.png) is the only thing preventing https://indiewebcamp.com/https from being fully HTTPS
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aaronpk that is fixed now :)
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snarfed kylewm: agreed. i've been using bridgy publish for lots of likes/favorites/RTs, but actual posts are still manual
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+0) "/* Venue Capacity: 20 */" (view diff)
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caseorganic is excited to see the signups for IndieWebCamp Cambridge 2014! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Guest_List
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caseorganic.com uploaded /File:harvard-berkman-center.jpg "Berkman Center Photo Credit: Berkman Center for Internet & Society at 23 Everett Street, Cambridge MA. Taken 20110716 by [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fletcher6 Fletcher6]."
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/Cambridge (+582) "/* IndieWebCampCambridge 2014 */" (view diff)
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/Cambridge (-2) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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Loqi voxpelli: KevinMarks left you a message on 4/1 at 9:27am: only one url per github account?
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voxpelli !tell KevinMarks One can add as many url:s/domains per account as one want
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks Didn't worth for me, u I'll retry
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Loqi KevinMarks: voxpelli left you a message 1 minute ago: One can add as many url:s/domains per account as one want
tobiastom, carlo_au, eschnou, krendil, friedcell, LauraJ, Sebastien-L, jsilvestre, tilgovi, caseorganic, vf5761, KevinMarks_, josephboyle, glennjones, basal, pfenwick, bnvk, pasevin, scor, melvster and peck_lx joined the channel
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@localherodotbiz @indieporch stop spamming the indieweb hashtag (twitter.com/_/status/451346689488482305)
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ben_thatmustbeme this is the first time i wasn't able to catch up fully on the logs on my train ride in
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ben_thatmustbeme my god there was a lot of discussion
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KevinMarks Heh. I'm on a train now and seen to have nothing since last night
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KevinMarks I changed the reward model of Indiecreddit.com and now I have coins
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KevinMarks Not sure if that works globally
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bnvk KevinMarks: are you really making an Indie crypto currency?
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KevinMarks It was an April Fools joke, but it is a functioning altcoin
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bnvk lol
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KevinMarks Because that's funnier
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bnvk the troll is strong with this one
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, read up on enough of yesterday's discussion. I'll admit i ended up just skipping bits
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ben_thatmustbeme my one question of the webmention queue link really kicked things off
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KevinMarks_ OK, indiecreddit.com now signed up to https://webmention.herokuapp.com
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ben_thatmustbeme Only an osx client though.
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ben_thatmustbeme make me sad
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ben_thatmustbeme s/make/makes/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: makes me sad
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KevinMarks_ feel free to build the others
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KevinMarks_ I didn't set up VMs to do it
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KevinMarks_ especially windows
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KevinMarks_ also, getting the mac one to work is still a work in progress, as it requires external libs installed with brew or macports at the moment
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ben_thatmustbeme once you get that all set i can build it on my funtoo machine. Should be just a matter of writing an ebuild file
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ben_thatmustbeme i have a ton of work to do on my site anyway. And probably some work-work.
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ben_thatmustbeme at least i beat 2048 Numberwang, so I can stop playing that.... Thanks a bunch for that one.
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KevinMarks_ oops
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KevinMarks_ when it rotates the board, that is worth it
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that scared me the first time it happened
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KevinMarks_ if you want to try on linux, the code's checked in
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ben_thatmustbeme cloning now
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KevinMarks_ Linux -Qt This is by a long shot the easiest wallet to compile,
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KevinMarks_ apparently it's just qmake "USE_UPNP=-" then make
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KevinMarks !tell tantek I got the 7am train. is there breakfast at the w3c thing?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks2 And into the tunnel. I suspect that you won't see the machine I still have running at home. I need to get port forwarding set up.
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KevinMarks2 Also upnp may help there
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ben_thatmustbeme installing qtmake. apparently not on this machine
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KevinMarks2 There are some dependecies
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KevinMarks2 http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-dpub-annotation-uc-20140313/ the use cases in the first section all sound like webmention
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ben_thatmustbeme ack, package slots causing error on one machine and my other machine is having issues doing qmake
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 50 minutes ago: I got the 7am train. is there breakfast at the w3c thing?
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GWG I still can't get Twitter right. Darn you 140 characters.
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KevinMarks WebMention shoutout by Shepers
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hober KevinMarks: are you here?
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Loqi hober: tantek left you a message on 4/1 at 4:37pm: any of you going to the W3C Workshop on Annotations tomorrow?
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Loqi hober: tantek left you a message on 4/1 at 4:39pm: any of you going to the W3C Workshop on Annotations tomorrow? http://www.w3.org/2014/04/annotation/ can apparently register late (today) as an "Interested Attendee" without a paper! https://www.eventbrite.com/e/w3c-web-annotations-conference-tickets-10982205071?team_reg_type=individual
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KevinMarks yes, 2nd table at the back on the left
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KevinMarks is there a hashtag for this event?
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hober dunno
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KevinMarks ianno?
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hober i think that's the event that this is collocated with
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KevinMarks is there an irc for the event?
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KevinMarks irc.w3.org #innovation
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@kevinmarks #annotation @tilgovi: we need feed discovery - Activity Streams. Also we need to publish locally and use WebMention http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (twitter.com/_/status/451392646859481089)
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tantek also for those that want to lurk, there is a scribe taking notes/minutes here: irc://irc.w3.org/annotation
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KevinMarks plus I'm tweeting it at #annotation
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aaronpk KevinMarks: is there a list of the dependencies I need to install to run indiecreddit-qt?
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@t #ianno14 @W3C Web Annotations Workshop: great @tilgovi intro noted #webmention & #microformats. GDoc slides: http://tantek.com/2014/092/t1/ianno14-web-annotations-webmention-microformats (twitter.com/_/status/451398336156016640)
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KevinMarks https://andarazoroflove.org/how-to-create-alt-coin-scrypt-clones-for-fun-and-profit-bitcoin-litecoin-secrets-exposed/
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KevinMarks is what I based it on
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KevinMarks sudo port install boost db48 qt4-mac openssl miniupnpc git
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tantek KevinMarks oh oops I used different hashtag
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aaronpk perfect thanks
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KevinMarks boost (C++ libraries) db48 (Berkeley DB 4.8) qt4-mac (Open Source QT 4.8.4, includes qmake) openssl (ssl dev libraries) git (to move source back and forth to the repository) miniupnpc (UPNP dev libraries, optional–honestly I say skip this crap)
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@JakeHartnell RT @t: #ianno14 @W3C Web Annotations Workshop: great @tilgovi intro noted #webmention & #microformats. GDoc slides: http://tantek.com/2014/092/t1/ianno14-web-annotations-webmention-microformats (twitter.com/_/status/451398568301981696)
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KevinMarks I think UPNP may be useful to get past locla IPs
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KevinMarks I suspect I need to put a client on a VPS with a public IP to connect the chain
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@domenicoperri RT @t: #ianno14 @W3C Web Annotations Workshop: great @tilgovi intro noted #webmention & #microformats. GDoc slides: http://tantek.com/2014/092/t1/ianno14-web-annotations-webmention-microformats (twitter.com/_/status/451399230364868608)
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bupkes hello
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KevinMarks hi bupkes
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ben_thatmustbeme hey htere
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bupkes Hi Kevin, I'm Matt :)
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ben_thatmustbeme s/ht/th/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: hey there
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bupkes hey ben
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bupkes This is my first ever IRC chat. I'm amazed how easy it was to join
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KevinMarks that's good to hear
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bupkes Though I'm using a Google Chrome client which doesn't seem to jive with #indieweb too well...
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@kzakza RT @t: #ianno14 @W3C Web Annotations Workshop: great @tilgovi intro noted #webmention & #microformats. GDoc slides: http://tantek.com/2014/092/t1/ianno14-web-annotations-webmention-microformats (twitter.com/_/status/451401571008397312)
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KevinMarks I use the chrome client
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KevinMarks I think that's OK as it's using an open protocol
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@kevinmarks #annotation #ianno14 #indieweb my notes on the w3C annotations meeting are up at http://www.kevinmarks.com/w3cannotation.html (twitter.com/_/status/451403550929584129)
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aaronpk pretty much the rule of thumb is avoid lock-in
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aaronpk so as long as you can switch to another client if you suddenly disagree with the chrome client, that's fine
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aaronpk nobody is saying you can't use closed-source or proprietary software or software created by megacorps
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bupkes I'm very much a non-coder, non-technical person but like the idea of indieweb so am tinkering with my site. Have webmentions etc up and running through a bunch of WP plugins and stuff
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KevinMarks excellent
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aaronpk sweet
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bupkes damn have to go as my mum just arrived and needs a cup of tea :) Well thanks for teh welcome and I will return to pick your brains hopefully
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KevinMarks tea++
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Loqi tea has 1 karma
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kbs do you know how many verified rel=me sites you have, KevinMarks? :)
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KevinMarks it used to be 20 but they have rotted a bit
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KevinMarks I have a lot linked from my google profile
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@JakeHartnell RT @kevinmarks: #annotation #ianno14 #indieweb my notes on the w3C annotations meeting are up at http://www.kevinmarks.com/w3cannotation.html (twitter.com/_/status/451405412718215168)
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kbs I count 24 in all - hope you're POSSE'ing to the max :)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 4/1 at 4:37pm: any of you going to the W3C Workshop on Annotations tomorrow?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 4/1 at 4:39pm: any of you going to the W3C Workshop on Annotations tomorrow? http://www.w3.org/2014/04/annotation/ can apparently register late (today) as an "Interested Attendee" without a paper! https://www.eventbrite.com/e/w3c-web-annotations-conference-tickets-10982205071?team_reg_type=individual
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@naypinya RT @kevinmarks: #annotation #ianno14 #indieweb my notes on the w3C annotations meeting are up at http://www.kevinmarks.com/w3cannotation.html (twitter.com/_/status/451405882706767873)
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, was there any consensus on format for webhook notifications or is it just was is in the brainstorming section of /webmention?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: which part? (but yes it's all in http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Asynchronous_status_notification )
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KevinMarks shorter wiley: interop is hard, so we made a silo
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bnvk whoa, Max got a Sloan grant for his crazy cool Dat project https://twitter.com/maxogden/status/451405975954550785
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@maxogden big news: I'm getting a $260k grant from Sloan to make Dat work for open science http://usodi.org/2014/04/02/dat and will have a small team! (twitter.com/_/status/451405975954550785)
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tantek Wat is Dat?
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bnvk tantek: a github for just data replication http://dat-data.com
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tantek neat!
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KevinMarks was talkig about those yesterday
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/jolieodell/status/451068460160655360
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@jolieodell Data scientists need their own GitHub. Here are four of the best http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/01/data-scientists-need-their-own-github-here-are-four-of-the-best/ (twitter.com/_/status/451068460160655360)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, I see so the status=<httpcode> is what we are going to be returning
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ben_thatmustbeme to the callback
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KartikPrabhu seems like a lot of Dat's time will be spent on trying to convert between xls and other formats...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: CSV!
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KevinMarks TSV
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KevinMarks CSV is evil
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KartikPrabhu yeah a lot of those things
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KevinMarks you can use TSV and label it CSV
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yes - it makes the protocol consistent between sync and async versions
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tantek thus hopefully simplifying both webmention sending and receiving code
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KevinMarks there is not a good format for representing spreadsheets with formulae in
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: is there a good reason or just that no one have made one?
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ben_thatmustbeme so then we would be expanding what we are returning for sync version to include 201 and not do the new header proposed?
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tantek KevinMarks: mathematica?
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KevinMarks people have made several
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KevinMarks they end up complicated and proprietary
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KartikPrabhu tantek: the Mathematica backend is complicated as hell
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KartikPrabhu any data structure in Mathematica depends on that propreitary processing backend
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: no I think we realized that 201 is inaccurate there as we are not creating the webmention endpoint itself
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tantek are there remnants of 201? I thought we removed it all
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KevinMarks .xlsx and .ops are the complex ones, SYLK and .dif the retro ones
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KartikPrabhu does hdf5 represent computations?
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ben_thatmustbeme http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Asynchronous_status_notification
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ben_thatmustbeme status=201 had me confused
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+0) "/* Asynchronous status notification */ fix remaining ref to 201 to be 200" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yes, just found it and fixed. thanks.
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KevinMarks R and Matlab and iPython are growing support
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KevinMarks Mathematica is cool, but very silo
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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KartikPrabhu I thought iPython was an interative shell thing... not a storage format
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ben_thatmustbeme I'll try to write up the spec as I have understood it. and maybe we can actually get it all written out to make sure we are on the same page. That conversation got quite long and intertwined with other things
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KevinMarks they have notebooks that you cna share
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KevinMarks also heroku dataclips are like gists for db tables
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KartikPrabhu true. but it still does not solve "store computations in tables" problem does it?
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KevinMarks https://postgres.heroku.com/blog/past/2013/1/17/learn_from_your_data_with_dataclips_20/
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KevinMarks the notebooks do.
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KevinMarks http://ipython.org/notebook.html
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KartikPrabhu interesting... more formats! heyo...
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@jsuttor @kevinmarks #annotation #ianno14 #indieweb can't help but think these ideas sound familiar... Oh yeah, HyTime ISO 10744:1997 :-) (twitter.com/_/status/451417469744209920)
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@mrmzholland @TCBarrett thanks mate. trying some #indieweb stuff and would like to get POSSE working with my site. https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/451419799323942913)
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bupkes oh that was my tweet then. dodn't realise it would show up here
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bupkes *didn't
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KevinMarks loqi looks for webmentions of indieweb stuff
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Loqi who, me?
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bupkes nice
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KevinMarks I often tweet with #indieweb tag to throw things in here
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bupkes nice idea.
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bupkes trying to find a way to push 'status' format WP posts out to twitter/app.net etc. Annoyingly it doesn't seem as simple as finding an RSS feed. Thankfully I have a WP pro chap looking into it...
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bupkes I'd use a category but that'd mess up my main rss feed.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I don't know where to put in pending human moderation really, but this is what I have worked up thus far https://github.com/dissolve/webmention
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm trying to keep it as unified as possible with the callback/queue messages reflecting what would be returned if there were no queue and it returned immediately
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ben_thatmustbeme there are a lot of people named Ben in here
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bupkes hey jeena :)
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@emasters RT @kevinmarks: #annotation #ianno14 #indieweb my notes on the w3C annotations meeting are up at http://www.kevinmarks.com/w3cannotation.html (twitter.com/_/status/451432011421720576)
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tantek.com edited /repost (+55) "move publify notes from Twitter section to its own section" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme hey kbs
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kbs hi ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme saw that whole conversation about security yesterday, got pretty involved
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kbs heh. There must be some equivalent of godwin's law for such conversations - the moment turtles are mentioned :)
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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Loqi rofl
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ben_thatmustbeme so long as it didn't turn to Hitler Turtle, we are good
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kbs indeed :)
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ben_thatmustbeme It did get me thinking though, Unless we have some sort of trusted central service, there is no real way to validate that a key is correct
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kbs to some extent, yea. I think as in all such things, there's really a sliding scale
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kbs one could trust a group of services (a.k.a. indieauth) or one could directly verify keys (a.k.a. PGP verification) I think
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ben_thatmustbeme well, indieauth only says that you are talking to the owner of a site, and that person also owns this other account
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kbs right - and implicitly, indieauth trusts that atleast one of these two sites is telling the truth
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ben_thatmustbeme to prevent a hacked site from being abused, basically you have to have a separate site that required an alternate security method. You basically require that both sites agree on a key
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ben_thatmustbeme in indie auth, one site not-telling the truth means the link to the other could be false
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ben_thatmustbeme so you need something that is a single central service so that you know the link to the alternate site isn't a lie
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ben_thatmustbeme basically its the SSL key model
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kbs let me take a specific example, so it's easier for me to follow along [forgive my diminishing brain cells :)]
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gRegor` We talking about sharing/verifying PGP keys?
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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ben_thatmustbeme kbs had been asking about this a while back
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kbs let's say that I have a site Indie, that's running some vulnerable server plugin, so some script kiddie can randomly change stuff on my site
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kbs let's also say [for the sake of argument if that's ok] that I also have a g+ account, and that the script kiddie finds it harder to hack into that
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ShaneHudson I really must sort out my irc client at some point, it completely broke. But I have now got incoming webmentions and brid.gy working on my site now :) just need to style it (http://www.shanehudson.net/2014/03/11/what-is-the-web/)
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kbs so the question is - let's say someone finds a h-note sitting on my site - how do they know that I really wrote it
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kbs doesn't contain something fishy [assuming they trust "me"] that is
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gRegor` Nice work, ShaneHudson
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@mrmzholland mucking about with indieweb stuff again… #posse http://bupk.es/2014/04/02/mucking-about-with-indieweb-stuff-again-posse/ (twitter.com/_/status/451436586111352833)
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ben_thatmustbeme kbs, IF they know you through your G+ account, they key on G+ is what they can use to verify (assuming you posted in there). However, for the general case, as soon as the script kiddie is on your site, they could change all your keys and most importantly, the link to your G+ account, to point to their own
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gRegor` kbs: Has this person verified your PGP key signature out of band?
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bupkes hooray i think i have posse-fied my site. in a way, at least.
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ben_thatmustbeme now if someone only knows you through your site, they are incorrectly getting the posts as valid from you
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kbs gRegor`: haven't come to pgp plumbing yet, just trying to set up the conditions and the threats
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kbs ben_thatmustbeme: re the change-link scenario. So someone is likely to "know" me from my g+ (also twitter, etc) accounts. If they don't know me other than my web-site, then yes - there's no way to 'authenticate' it unless they know me in another way
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gRegor` The most secure scenario is that you've signed your h-note with a PGP key and the reader has verified your key out of band. Or via a secure channel that is linked from your site, but not able to be updated via your site. Like ben_thatmustbeme said, if they can compromise your site, all bets are off.
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ben_thatmustbeme the way this is handled through SSL (validates that you are actually talking to whoever registered the key) is to go to a central repository of public keys and find the one for your site. The assumption is that the SSL registrar is not hacked. SSL keys for the SSL registrar are usually distributed from manufacturers so you know your connection to them is validated
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kbs I actually think there's a middle ground here
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kbs It's the same middle ground as indieauth. That is, if someone "knows" me from my twitter, g+ etc profiles, there is in fact a way to validate things
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kbs so the specific threat model is: Indie is compromised, but not g+, twitter and other profiles
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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kbs By placing a pgp key on Indie, and fingerprinst on g+, twitter, etc - an automated way to validate that is already feasible
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gRegor` And people actively do that currently
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kbs Yes - so I'd just like to automate that cleanly - that's the middle ground :)
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ben_thatmustbeme it does make validation through known connections possible, but those connections have to be made first, if they get them from your site, again, it could be compromised links
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@mrmzholland (http://bupk.es/2014/04/02/mucking-about-with-indieweb-stuff-again-posse/) (twitter.com/_/status/451438112594333698)
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ben_thatmustbeme seems to be some spotty connections today
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kbs ben_thatmustbeme: hm, not following you fully there. Let's say someone points to +xxyyzz with a new fingerprint -- wouldn't I know that +xxyyzz is not actually +kbsriram?
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KartikPrabhu bupkes: did you implement automatic POSSEing?
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gRegor` The automation wouldn't know, kbs. It would just follow the rel=me/rel=fingerprint (or whatever)
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ben_thatmustbeme if I know that +kbsriram is you, then yes, i can validate that way... assuming i trust that G+ isn't compromised too
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kbs yes, :) the assumption is indeed that the user sees the associated profiles before use
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ben_thatmustbeme ah okay
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bupkes kartik: I used this feed : http://bupk.es/feed/?post_format=status to post my 'status' posts to my app.net account, and from there on to my twitter. not pretty, but it worked. i think.
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ben_thatmustbeme then yes, I would agree that would work. but also assuming your private key isn't stored on your site
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gRegor` I'm not sure I follow. Just a visual inspection to confirm it's +kbsriram?
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kbs ben_thatmustbeme: yep - indeed
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gRegor` What if the attacker makes a similar looking profile?
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KartikPrabhu bupkes: interesting approach...
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor`: we are assuming that we know the profile beforehand
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bupkes kartik: best i could do with zero coding skills :)
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KartikPrabhu bupkes: you should write about the details of doing that/setting it up so others can see and try it too
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kbs gRegor`: yes, pretty much. It doesn't prevent phishing (someone creates +kb$riram I guess) but like most things - it's a simple enough step that seems worth the automated effort
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ben_thatmustbeme so if I were to personally know kbs, and thus trust that his g+ account is kbsriram
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bupkes oh ok will do. embarrassingly simple but might help someone i guess
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gRegor` Hm
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KartikPrabhu bupkes: yeah such things might not be simple for others (I actually have no idea what app.net does :P )
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, you around?
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bupkes kartik: well using app.net is not obligatory, i just used what i had at hand :)
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gRegor` If we already know them / trust their profile, shouldn't that be cached? "kbsriram's fingerprint is XYZ" and match that against the signed h-note?
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kbs yep - taht's a good idea.So the thought I have is more on the lines of a contact manager that I'd use to contact someone. I enter a URL (say, http://gregorlove.com
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gRegor` I guess I'm wondering about the "first time" experience, when you don't really know kbsriram from anyone else.
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kbs It crawls the rel=me links, and any keys it finds
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kbs it then shows the vcard, + all associated sites, + any validated keys
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor`: thats what I was saying, with this model, if you only know him from URL... thats all you have, there is no validity
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kbs right
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kbs if all you know is just my site, then it does nothing
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ben_thatmustbeme because if the site is hacked at first crawl, all bets are off
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kbs er, only if you don't know my other profiles :)
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ben_thatmustbeme well, no, you would discover the wrong profiles
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ben_thatmustbeme in that case
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kbs correct, but that's ok
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kbs because you wouldn't think it's "me"
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm
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gRegor` Er
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ben_thatmustbeme i suppose thats true
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gRegor` I don't see how that's true.
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ben_thatmustbeme you are really doing the same as indieauth, validating that the set accounts are all the same person, not that they are a specific person IRL
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kbs yep - exactly :)
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kbs I think it's a reasonable middle ground
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kbs and can be automated also quite simply
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kbs of course - I expect the paranoid would call me up and ask me to read out my pgp words, but that's always feasible :)
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why there used to be pgp key signing parties
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gRegor` I guess I still don't understand the use-case.
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kbs so let's say I happen to know tantek as @tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme kbs, the better question is, doesn't this make all the keys unnecessary?
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ben_thatmustbeme the links between the sites will suffice to validate they are all the same person
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gRegor` If you want to ensure that I wrote on gregorlove.com, and you're checking a key signature on the note against the fingerprint posted on my twitter...
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gRegor` Then an attacker can compromise my site, change the note signature, link to @gregorl0ve (zero instead of "o"), list the corresponding signature on twitter, and your system still validates it.
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kbs ben_thatmustbeme: no, actually not :) because the script-kiddie can change the content, but not the key - and, therefore, now I can sign my pages to mark that abuse
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kbs gRegor`: yes - it doesn't prevent phishing attacks indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme kbs, i get you
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kbs however, if you use the tofu model, you might be able to mitigate phishing by watching for changes
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kbs gRegor`: I think the 'automation' is merely in displaying the set of profiles - the user still decides whether to trust that key or not [and they can always use the traditional pgp model if they so choose]
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gRegor` Adding the key / fingerprint check doesn't seem to add any value I can see. Still a single point of failure - my domain
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kbs hm - do you feel so? Because it doesn't prevent phishing attacks?
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gRegor` Because in either situation, it relies on information that is on the domain.
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gRegor` They key / external site fingerprint check doesn't mitigate if my domain is compromised.
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ben_thatmustbeme btw gRegor` this is what I have worked up thus far https://github.com/dissolve/webmention
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ben_thatmustbeme just don't know about the waiting for moderation thing
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kbs gRegor`: hm - could you elaborate more on why? [assuming that there isn't a phishing attack involved]
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kbs so the assumption is - you know one or more of my other profiles on twitter/g+/github etc
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kbs but my primary domain is potentially untrustworthy
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gRegor` kbs: What you're trying to do is let anyone be able to verify that the note on your domain was actually written by you, not another party, correct?
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kbs gRegor`: I'm coming to that, but right now, I just want to be able to verify that a pgp key on my domain, specifically, belongs to me
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor`: yes, I think thats the idea
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gRegor` Ok
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh
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kbs once I have that - I can simply sign pages (or sections of pages) to prove the rest
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gRegor` You cannot *reliably* do that unless someone can verify your PGP fingerprint out-of-band.
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kbs gRegor`: yes, understood - the goal is simply to do better than what's otherwise possible
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, gRegor`, thats the idea of putting your fingerprint on G+, IFF someone knows you through your G+ then that is the verification
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kbs so specifically, if I know your g+ and github profiles, *and* I assume that those have not been compromised
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gRegor` *and* the fingerprint appears on both g+ and github, sure.
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kbs yep - that's really it :)
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kbs just - automate the linkages and checks and show the 'confirming' sites in the UI
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gRegor` The thing I worry about is:
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gRegor` Yes, it's great if I know kbs' profile.
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gRegor` But this could easily be relied on too heavily and people start using it to trust everyone's keys
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gRegor` Especially if people get in the habit of going through 20 profiles of people they know, clicking "Accept key." Eventually they're like "yeah yeah... *click*"
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gRegor` Presuming there's 20 people in the world using PGP... ;) I kid, I kid
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kbs indeed :)
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kbs that's why I think I'm really looking for a better middle ground
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gRegor` Interesting conversation. I'm very interested in using PGP more (but have barely begun).
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gRegor` I have to get going for now. Look forward to talking more.
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kbs thanks for the thoughts gRegor` - love to hear more about what you're thinking here
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme: I'll have to take a look at the webmention stuff later
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peakwinter hallo indiewebcamp!
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peakwinter please excuse my momentary evangelization, but my project is looking for a "co-founder" and I wanted to make sure it gets spread around in case anyone is interested by the idea
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peakwinter https://citizenweb.is/news/2014/03/assistant-program-director/
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peakwinter feel free to check it out and shoot me an email if you're interested. cheers!!
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kbs ben_thatmustbeme: thanks the feedback - good points as always :)
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kbs fwiw, I've had the signing bits sort-of-kind-of vaguely in place for a couple of days - each page on the site (eg: http://kbsriram.com/2013/01/finding-a-gpg-vulnerability-by-fuzzing.html links with <link rel="signature">) to its signed version http://kbsriram.com/2013/01/finding-a-gpg-vulnerability-by-fuzzing.html.asc) so someone coming in from a webmention can choose to check that first
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@mrmzholland @ClarePlayforth this is the kind of thing i'm messing about with http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/451446882892795905)
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kbs and this works pretty much mostly for static content - I'm not sure signing things on the server is a good idea, as you say :)
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kbs 'syndicates' from local files
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ben_thatmustbeme Post on User System, Syndicate to Yoursite
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ben_thatmustbeme :D
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kbs naughty :)
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ben_thatmustbeme I had to
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kbs tantek helped me come up with 'selfie' - syndicate everywhere from local files I edit
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i saw that
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kbs ah, ok :)
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek I don't know where to put in pending human moderation really, but this is what I have worked up thus far https://github.com/dissolve/webmention
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell aaronpk I don't know where to put in pending human moderation really, but this is what I have worked up thus far https://github.com/dissolve/webmention
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/mrmzholland/451446882892795905/451447399635222529 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/mrmzholland/451446882892795905/451447703357374464 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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bupkes oh gosh sorry it looks like my tweets have spammed the channel
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 16 minutes ago: I don't know where to put in pending human moderation really, but this is what I have worked up thus far https://github.com/dissolve/webmention
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tantek !tell bupkes Welcome! And nice domain name :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek whoa there are a lot of bens in the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, I said that earlier
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ben_thatmustbeme We are taking over
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snarfed.org edited /Twitter (+268) "/* Porting to the IndieWeb */ freedom.io, no reply or favorites api" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /Twitter (+38) "/* Implementations */ fix typo, source link" (view diff)
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KevinMarks that's not spamming, spamming is when I live tweet an actual indiewebcamp
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ben_thatmustbeme I can only imagine
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KevinMarks have a look at https://twitter.com/search?q=%23annotation&src=typd&f=realtime
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KevinMarks :D
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benwerd for one, really deeply appreciates KevinMarks's notetaking, particularly on days like today when he can't attend in person
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snarfed.org edited /Facebook (+254) "/* Exporting your data */ freedom.io" (view diff)
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benwerd (and everyone else's notetaking & tweets!)
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks, Leo is talking about you talking about Tantek again on TWiG
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tantek three degrees of separation reference? or four?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: what are they saying - is there an IRC channel?
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KevinMarks there is
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ben_thatmustbeme there is, buts its CHAOS
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tantek bring it!
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ben_thatmustbeme irc.twit.tv #twitlive
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: is there an archive you can point to?
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KevinMarks the archive of the show will go up tonight
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KevinMarks youtube nad mp3
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tantek IRC archive?
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KevinMarks hm, I think so
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, he just mentioned briefly, Kevin mentioned your posts last week and the week before
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tantek oh the Personal Comms stuff ok
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ben_thatmustbeme but they really like the "click a link and start a call" type stuff
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KevinMarks they liked the concept, but leo wants it in a car?
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ben_thatmustbeme leo wants it in everything I'm sure
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ben_thatmustbeme he wants the "OK House: start a call with Kevin Marks" and have it replace his TV with a video call
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ben_thatmustbeme or maybe thats just me
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benwerd seems totally reasonable to me? particularly if everything (tv, calls, etc) is in a browser
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KevinMarks chromecast
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ben_thatmustbeme I love the chromecast. been selling it to my friends slowly
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KevinMarks tho' it doesn't have a camera or mic, so maybe xbox
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ben_thatmustbeme my apple only friend loved it when I showed her she could stream her home plex server to my TV
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KevinMarks it needs a way to turn off the TV again
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KevinMarks I should look at plex
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benwerd agnostic: use the microphone / camera servers in the web platform, and pick which screen. then just change which "tab" has focus
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Loqi yea!
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ben_thatmustbeme after seeing how nice it is, I may have to play with plex too
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: hmm - I don't seem to be able to get into the irc://irc.twit.tv/#twitlive channel
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KevinMarks the only thing is that chromecast doesn't route to the external speakers, only the TV ones
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ben_thatmustbeme what drives me crazy is our router doesn't seem to bridge 2.4 and 5 g correctly, so if i'm on 5g it doesn't see the chromecast
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KevinMarks use the web verstion, tantek ?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks, I route all TV audio through our sound system via audio out
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ben_thatmustbeme I abuse the headphones port really
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KevinMarks to get surround I have optical from the cable box, and the DVD player makes it work for netflix/amazon
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KevinMarks s/DVD/Blu-ray/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: to get surround I have optical from the cable box, and the Blu-ray player makes it work for netflix/amazon
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ben_thatmustbeme There always ends up something missing, You need like a surround system that has HDMI in and out
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ben_thatmustbeme but then the turn-on-the-tv automatically thing would not work
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ben_thatmustbeme too much to watch that chat,
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tantek.com edited /repost (+854) "/* Twitter */ the most reposted thing" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /repost (+126) "/* The Most Reposted Thing */ note cite previous most shared tweet" (view diff)
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bear tantek - there is no archive of twit's irc but I am the admin so have access to the logs if you are looking for something specific
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tantek bear - mentions of say, indieweb indiewebcamp microformats tantek :)
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tantek well especially today
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bear let me run a grep and get some log snippets
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tantek thanks!
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bear @tantek - zero hits
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bear which, knowing the folks who are in their chat, does not surprise me
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tantek really? not even to URLs to my personal comms posts? Kevin had said he discussed them / referenced them during last week's ep (or week before?)
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tantek so is the chat not really a reflection of the show then?
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bear oh - other than today?
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tantek yeah
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bear I only grepped for today
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tantek oh ok cool
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bear k, changing date range
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KevinMarks I post URLs in the chat when I'm on
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KevinMarks they sometimes add them to show records too
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KevinMarks wasn't there something called common tags before?
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bear @tantek - ok, 3 references on two days - i've grep'd out the whole hour - how do you want it? 2263 lines
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KevinMarks just got pointed to http://commontags.org/ which is interesting use of hashtags
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GWG Good afternoon/evening/day.
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GWG Still trying to get some of the indieweb standards set up. As a Wordpress person, wondering if anyone had any good examples of someone who has set up a site using it that they would recommend for inspiration.
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bear @tantek I put the file here: https://bear.im/files/indieweb_references_twit.tv_irc.txt
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tantek KevinMarks that's very different from http://commontag.org/ ;)
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tantek GWG - lots of WordPress folks here
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tantek e.g. ping snarfed :)
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KevinMarks aha. I thought that name rang a faint bell from the past
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tantek bear - thanks! looks just like a few references to the Personal Comms blog post(s) as I thought
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GWG tantek: I will see if any of them pops up tonight. I'm trying to figure out the right combination of theme hacking and plugins. But I'll look at their sites.
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bear tantek - your welcome
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tantek GWG - hanni also has quite a bit of WordPress experience :)
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GWG tantek: Thank you. WIll find their sites in the directory and look at the source/design for inspiration
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tantek GWG - there's also the /WordPress page with a good list of IndieWeb Examples
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GWG I've been looking there
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GWG I'm customizing the appearance of my site. So I might look at a bunch of Indieweb type sites
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CheckDavid Showe an indie site now!
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CheckDavid Lol
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@lucas_gonze http://indiewebcamp.com/https HTTPS how-to on your own server. (twitter.com/_/status/451486371765428224)
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@dpjanes RT @lucas_gonze: http://indiewebcamp.com/https HTTPS how-to on your own server. (twitter.com/_/status/451486691682156544)
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GWG Why do I need HTTPS on my own server? Most content sites don't need it...
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GWG Assuming Loqi is a bot, I probably won't get an answer.
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Loqi :)
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GWG Or is that just a cut and paste?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: those are tweets that Loqi tracks
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gRegor` And secure all the things. Make it harder for the creeps in the NSA and GCHQ
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gRegor` :)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I figured
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kbs a dumb question - are rel attributes expected to relate to the entire document [rather than being scoped to a section?] eg: a rel=author would refer to the author of the page
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KartikPrabhu kbs: yes
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kbs KartikPrabhu: great, thank you
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GWG KartikPrabhu: But, what is the scenario for wanting HTTPS on a site? It seems like, if you are't doing commerce...
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KartikPrabhu GWG: it is just to make your connection secure... depends on how secure you want it
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bear.im edited /nginx (+151) "add ietf draft doc link" (view diff)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'm looking at higher priorities right now
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GWG Even I don't want to visit my site right now
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KartikPrabhu of course... HTTPS is later
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GWG I'm learning a lot though, which I suppose is helpful.
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bear.im edited /https (+151) "add ietf draft doc link" (view diff)
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GWG I'd nver toched some of his stuff
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GWG this stuff
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KartikPrabhu yeah... it is useful to just lurk around here and tinker with your site
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GWG I do lurk. But I also enjoy pleasant discourse when I can
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snarfed GWG: there are two main reasons to do ssl on your own site: 1) security for your own login and admin activities, 2) privacy for your users/readers
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snarfed more on #2: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2012/12/02/HTTPS , https://willnorris.com/2012/12/all-https-all-the-time
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gRegor` GWG: Reasons for SSL - make surveillance expensive as possible, privacy should be on by default. And it's not too difficult to add. See Eric Mill's post https://konklone.com/post/switch-to-https-now-for-free
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gRegor` Haha, sorta jinx.
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gRegor` Eric's post links to Tim Bray's. :)
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GWG The thing is...my site shares an IP with other sites.
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GWG Will have to look into it
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I recommend getting your site in order for posting and POSSEing before diving into SSL.
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GWG I am.
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GWG I like to bookmark things to read at lunch though
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GWG I can't POSSE and eat at the same time
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kbs he
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kbs apparently I can't type either
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gRegor` kbs: I was thinking about keys and verification some more, and maybe expanded the scope, heh...
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kbs do tell :)
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snarfed GWG: with SNI, SSL no longer requires a dedicated IP except for very very old clients. details and link http://indiewebcamp.com/https
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snarfed …but KartikPrabhu is definitely right. first things first…ie the things you personally care about most
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gRegor` I was thinking it would be nice to have a network of trust. E.g. if Y has verified and trusts Z, and I trust Y, then it could allow me to automatically trust Z.
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gRegor` And perhaps specify how "strong" that verification was. E.g. if I verified your PGP signature over the phone or in person, that's really strong.
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kbs gRegor`: gotcha - so baking the web-of-trust model into the 'web', literally I guess :)
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gRegor` Yeah
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gRegor` Doesn't really change the core challenge. Just adds on to it. :)
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gRegor` indieweb of indietrust. Haha
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kbs :-) it's a nifty idea
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kbs fwiw, the PGP crowd has had a hard time maknig the WoT model work in practice
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kbs but it sure would be interesting to see whether something might work better over the web + some tools.
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GWG snarfed: I know. But I thought the certificate I'd need would require money.
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GWG snarfed: Trying to get Wordpress to do some of the sync stuff I want it to
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snarfed GWG: cert is independent of SNI, and there are a few free cert providers. details on http://indiewebcamp.com/https
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GWG I've been an indieweb person apparently for years. I just discovered my personal philosophy had a movement.
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snarfed heh, same with me
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kbs haha GWG :)
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gRegor` Hehe, same here GWG. Probably for a lot of us
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snarfed re sync, do you mean posse? lots of good options there, and it sounds like you're already reading http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress . i'd recommend jetpack publicize, mailchimp social, or nextscripts snap
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tantek.com edited /repost (+87) "/* The Most Reposted Thing */ add blockquote of tweet itself" (view diff)
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GWG snarfed: No. Backfeed
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gRegor` GWG: are you on the wiki yet? If so, you should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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snarfed GWG: aha. afaik brid.gy is the only substantial backfeed implementation right now
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snarfed ie, that's not a one-off script
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snarfed i'd love to see more though!
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snarfed if you're thinking about plugins to support it, pfefferle's indieweb bundle plugin alone should do it
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gRegor` Do we wait until closer to the HWC meeting to add them? I was going to add a stub for the 4/9 meeting.
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gRegor` Homepage still has the 3/26 meeting
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gRegor` ^ tantek aaronpk
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gRegor` Also, KartikPrabhu and I need to decide where to meet :)
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yes. sorry. very busy week :)
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gRegor` No worries
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tantek gRegor`: go ahead and make the page for the 2014-04-09 HWC meeting!
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gRegor` I was definitely planning on 6:30 central - so not in sync with west coast.
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tantek clone from the 2014-03-26 meeting
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GWG gRegor`: I'm waiting to get my site up to snuff
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gRegor` tantek: same locations for SF and PDX as last time?
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tantek and just be sure to fix all the copy/pastes
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tantek gRegor - pretty sure I can get MozSF so leave that in
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GWG snarfed: Nextscript's SNAP does import @replies and Facebook comments.
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tantek and anything you're not sure about, use HTML comments to comment it out
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tantek e.g. <!-- PDX location: …. -->
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snarfed GWG: ah right, good point!
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gRegor` Ok, will do
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tantek Thanks!
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snarfed GWG: mailchimp social might too?
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GWG snarfed: But not likes. And for some reason, my friends are lazy
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: the intelligentsia downtown on Jackson closes at 6pm so that is out
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I was looking at Randolph
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gRegor` Yelp says 8pm
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: walking back home. will be back in a bit. we can decide time/place.
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gRegor` k
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+3125) "Basic event information. Please confirm PDX location." (view diff)
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gRegor` Going to work on a template to easily navigate past HWC in the footer, too.
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kbs are some of you already 'extracting' vcard-equivalent data from plus.google.com pages? any sample code you have handy - starting to poke at what attributes it has
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kbs but maybe someone has done the dirty work already :)
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kbs oh! I guess it's using the itemprop idea
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tantek kbs - they keep changing it up
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kbs oh, I see - okay
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tantek.com edited /Readmill (+823) "put JSON example inline from IRC" (view diff)
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tantek kbs - I think originally KevinMarks added nice simple microformats to their pages
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tantek then someone went through and changed it to RDFa
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tantek then someone went through and changed it to microdata
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tantek etc.
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tantek who knows what's next
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tantek maybe they'll add microformats2 next! :)
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kbs :-) ah yes, the joys of a big company
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tantek it is an interesting long term challenge
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tantek well, especially when no one is measurably consuming what they're doing
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tantek they have little incentive NOT to keep changing things around
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@t #ianno14 1. Annotation servers fragile til proven otherwise. E.g. @Readmill shutdown 2014-07-01 http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths#Readmill (ttk.me t4VN3) (twitter.com/_/status/451501824412229632)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+1) "/* Previously */ Fix dates. Will work on template to easily fill these in." (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: back
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+10) "/* Homebrew Website Club */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Readmill (+79) "add export and twitter links" (view diff)
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gRegor` wb KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu the Randolph one looks good
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@azaroth42 RT @t: #ianno14 1. Annotation servers fragile til proven otherwise. E.g. @Readmill shutdown 2014-07-01 http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths#Readmill (ttk.me t4VN3) (twitter.com/_/status/451503893805924354)
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gRegor` Cool. I'll put it on the wiki
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@t #ianno14 ... despite shutdown, @Readmill exports can inform data models, highlights, locators: http://indiewebcamp.com/Readmill (ttk.me t4VN4) (twitter.com/_/status/451504750534860800)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+377) "/* Where */ added Chicago location" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/451501824412229632/853821 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths#Readmill (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/451501824412229632/451503893805924354 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths#Readmill (webmention)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+41) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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kbs just realizes twitter apparently has its own cool little markup
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kbs and i guess og:foo is facebook
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+42) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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kbs this is entertaining :) all the spec authors must have the patience of Job
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KartikPrabhu kbs: yes. everyone has their own markup unfortunately
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox () "(-3652) clean slate" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: since we are at a diff. time we should put that on the wiki too... 1830 is it?
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benward @kbs: We have our own set of meta-tags for Cards, but we parse og: as well for the common things like `description`, `title`, `photo` and so on.
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kbs benward: ah, gotcha - thanks for the tip.
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kbs [context is that I'm doing this foolhardy attempt at doing the parsing locally, so I guess I need to figure out all the different markup formats
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kbs or atleast the interesting subset.]
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gRegor` Was just thinking that.
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+46) "/* Where */ clarify CDT for Chicago" (view diff)
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gRegor` Separate h-events might be a good idea in the future. Good problem to have. :)
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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snarfed kbs: you're scraping instead of using apis?
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snarfed totally ok, just curious
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: so bridgy sent me fav/retweets from benwerd's tweet too!
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kbs snarfed: that's what I'm doing at the moment
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kbs but I have a feeling I might need to go down the api path for more reliable results
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: yup, it's promiscuous like that
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snarfed kbs: yup. more work but more reliable
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gRegor` Wish it was easier to work with MediaWiki templates, not requiring special modules or plugins.
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KartikPrabhu nice! :) I was surprised since I had more activity on my page than on twitter...
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KartikPrabhu very cool :)
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kbs snarfed: thanks for the tip - agreed
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kbs [scrape indieweb and use apis for silos, I guess, essentially]