#indiewebcamp 2014-04-17

2014-04-17 UTC
pauloppenheim, caseorganic, lukebrooker and cnxtrm joined the channel
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gRegor`
If you have anchors on paragraph elements, webmentions could be sent to those. kylewm, KartikPrabhu
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gRegor`
The mention is technically to the page, but you could handle the anchor in the target
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: true. I have starting adding anchors to section titles. might add mention support there
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: the more imp. problem would be how to expose the anchors to the reader
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KartikPrabhu
UX/UI - wise
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snarfed
yup, anchor in target is what people have tried so far, e.g. https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/21
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gRegor`
Dave Winer has paragraph symbols appear when hovering over, and as a link I believe.
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gRegor`
Actually, guess he has a hash link now: http://scripting.com/2014/04/16/thePressIsntGettingHeartbleed.html
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: did see that. but not good for mobile due to hover
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gRegor`
It's not hover now
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KartikPrabhu
oh interesting. also another thing would be what to do with those comments. how to present them etc...
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GWG
returns
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gRegor`
Just a link at the end of the line. Which I can't say looks very good... but it works :)
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kylewm
huh, his anchors are the first letter of the first 5 words
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gRegor`
Heh, interesting
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KartikPrabhu
yeah. not very robust but might work mostly
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gRegor`
If it's smart, it checks for uniqueness and appends a number to avoid collision
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gRegor`
Oh, it's javascript.
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gRegor`
That seems... inefficient.
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KartikPrabhu
but anyway. this seems like a good indie problem
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kylewm
provided it's something someone actually wants on their site
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KartikPrabhu
eh! i would. just this morning I got a bunch of very specific feedback from cweiske on IRC that could have been a frag-level comment
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KevinMarks2
The practical anchor is a text snippet
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KevinMarks2
I wonder if we can polyfill a way to do that
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JonathanNeal
polyfill what?
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KevinMarks2
Straw man idea: link to page with appended text excerpt after ##
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KevinMarks2
To scroll to last bullet
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: elaborate on what js you’re looking for? I’d like to help if I can.
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KevinMarks2
Have a script that parses that client side
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JonathanNeal
parses `that`, what is that? And what does it do with said thing?
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Loqi
that is what I am trying to understand
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KevinMarks2
If the fragment identifier has two # in, search the body text for the string and highlight
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JonathanNeal
You want a script that interprets double hashes as a link to the first result of the string on the page and scrolls to that section?
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KartikPrabhu
that sounds right
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JonathanNeal
I could write that for you. You want it to be case insensitive?
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KevinMarks2
I think so
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JonathanNeal
Great. Have a sample page I can work with, or may I use the tantek page you mentioned?
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KevinMarks2
Then present it as both a script to include in your site, and a browser extension for other people's sites
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KevinMarks2
One of my transcript pages might be good
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JonathanNeal
Send me a link. I’ll start on it right away.
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KevinMarks2
s/send/seems/
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Loqi
KevinMarks2 meant to say: http://www.kevinmarks.com/w3cannotation.html seems appropriate
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JonathanNeal
Great, I’ll get started on that right now. I should have something for you in the next 15 minutes.
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: is that robust enough against edits?
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KartikPrabhu
which seems to be something annotations folk are worried about
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JonathanNeal
Elaborate?
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KartikPrabhu
my page didn't scroll! ;)
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KevinMarks2
Give Jonathan a chance
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: confused about that line you linked to.
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KartikPrabhu
what happens if you highlight something and then the author makes edits?
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JonathanNeal
Should this search be aware of hidden text or stick to what is visible?
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KevinMarks2
Visible makes more sense to me by default
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KevinMarks2
Then the thing you linked to has changed, and the highlight will fall
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JonathanNeal
You got it.
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JonathanNeal
About done.
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KartikPrabhu
I see. so if people are doing federated annotations, then the onus is on the highlighter to save a copy
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KartikPrabhu
just like reply-contexts
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KartikPrabhu
oh! in fact this is exactly like reply-contexts!
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KartikPrabhu
surfs his brain wave
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KevinMarks2
That was what was going through my head in the annotations event
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KevinMarks2
Robust anchors
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KartikPrabhu
cool! sounds easier than the whole xpath thing I've been reading about
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JonathanNeal
Should it do anything else, like auto focus the element?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: highlight it?
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JonathanNeal
Not sure what that would look like without getting extra hacky.
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JonathanNeal
But the script is complete. Let me upload it.
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KevinMarks2
Robust anchors herbs towards keeping your own copy of the linked to object
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KevinMarks2
s/herbs/tend/
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Loqi
KevinMarks2 meant to say: Robust anchors tend towards keeping your own copy of the linked to object
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JonathanNeal
what do we call this, KevinMarks2?
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JonathanNeal
search anchor?
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JonathanNeal
dynamic / text / search anchor
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KartikPrabhu
auto-anchor ?
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kbs
it's a nifty idea :) [and, getting an element.innerText undefined on line 6. firefox on macos]
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JonathanNeal
experimentally updated to support Firefox and focus the node, kbs, KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks2
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KevinMarks2
Not working on Firefox android, should I retry?
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JonathanNeal
Yes, refresh.
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kbs
very nice :-)
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kbs
JonathanNeal ++
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kylewm
whoa yeah that's really cool! JonathanNeal++
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: how much does it highlight? the closest sentence?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal++ for something so cool in under 15mins!
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JonathanNeal
It highlights the deepest, first matching element.
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Loqi
JonathanNeal has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu
kbs kylewm: you guys need to learn to ++ better :P
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KevinMarks2
Excellent!
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: on clicking away it un-highlights. Is that intended?
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: that is the default behavior when clicking away from any focused element.
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kylewm
JonathanNeal++ <-- has to be at the beginning of the line?
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Loqi
JonathanNeal has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: I see, you're using focus. cool!
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kbs
It's a great idea - KevinMarks and JonathanNeal, love it.
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kylewm
now KartikPrabhu just needs to implement receiving webmentions for snippets!
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KartikPrabhu
lol! eh in due time kids
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JonathanNeal
How should autoanchors interpret special characters, like the plus sign in “lets+you+disclaim” or “webmention + pingback”?
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kylewm
the bar has been set at 15 minutes, kartik
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KartikPrabhu
nevers claimed to be any good...
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KevinMarks2
Hmm. I was using + signs because I'm old and its hard to type %20 on a phone
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KartikPrabhu
!tell snarfed: running activity-streams tests got this error " File "./alltests.py", line 22, in <module> filesystem.load_template_source = filesystem._loader.load_template_source AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute '_loader '"
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: I was thinking similarly, except (quite fortunately in our usecase) we have text that happens to contain a + sign.
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JonathanNeal
In that case, it would need to be escaped.
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GWG
KevinMarks2: I was catching up on logs. You coming to NYC for Indiewebcamp
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GWG
I need to put myself on the list as attending one day
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: that last one did not highlight in FF on Ubuntu
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KevinMarks2
Not sure about indieWebcamp NY yet
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KevinMarks2
I just thought of a name : fragmentions
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GWG
KevinMarks2: Hope someone comes
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gRegor`
Woo, got MySQL UNION query working. I should have a nice list of webmentions and comments interleaved together on my posts soon-ish.
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: hmmm nice!
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KevinMarks2
Tantek is going
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GWG
Two of us?
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tantek
GWG - bunch of folks from the NYT too
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tantek
will be doing a big promo push soon
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tantek
this is going to be an event directed mostly toward local NYC folks
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tantek
everyone indieweb is welcome of course
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GWG
tantek: I'm putting myself on the page.
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tantek
but we're pushing to make sure NYC folks who haven't gotten a chance to connect in person get a chance to go
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tantek
GWG - great!
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tantek
oh and we need to update the RSVPs according to the new format
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tantek
e.g. like we have for Cambridge
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tantek
GWG - want to help with that?
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC (+425) "/* Guest List */"
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tantek
Could you create http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List by copying from http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Guest_List and search/replace, and move our RSVPs to that page?
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC (-63) "/* Guest List */"
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GWG
Let me have a look
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tantek.com
edited /2014/ (+75) "add UK and Cambridge as what you might be looking for"
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david.shanske.com
created /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+3600) "Created page with "== IndieWebCamp New York 2014 == * '''When:''' <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">2014-04-26</time> <time class="value">09:00</time></span> through <span class="d...""
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tantek
gRegor`: that's the idea - 2014/Cambridge is already using it
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gRegor`
Oh, misread
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (-86) "/* IndieWebCamp New York 2014 */"
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tantek
people are using "how indie web" as a way to rate/evaluate services: https://twitter.com/ShenoaLawrence/status/456594465914753024
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@ShenoaLawrence
@erinanacker @higley I use Zoho. It’s been good so far, but I’m not sure how indie web they are.
(twitter.com/_/status/456594465914753024)
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tantek
this is a good thing
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC (-158) "/* Volunteers */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC (-335) "/* Remote Participants */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC (-190) "/* Regrets */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+494) "/* Official Guest List */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+1) "/* Official Guest List */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+261) "/* Official Guest List */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC () "(-1303) /* Guest List */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /2014/NYC (+128) "/* IndieWebCampNYC 2014 */"
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GWG
tantek: That work?
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tantek
GWG - looks great! now you just need an image from your website :)
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GWG
My size was off.
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GWG
I need to rescale
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: do you like the name fragmentions?
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KevinMarks
I think we should write this up
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tantek
GWG - looks pretty close
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tantek
but I think the order of things on Cambridge Guest_List was different?
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tantek
e.g. capacity and instructions for adding yourself come before Guest List itself I think
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GWG
I might have pasted out of order.
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tantek
KevinMarks, JonathanNeal ooh that's slick
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tantek
how about selecting the text also using the DOM?
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tantek
so the ## text is highlightd on the page?
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KevinMarks
the element is highlighted
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tantek
hmm - not seing that
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JonathanNeal
tantek: browser?
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tantek
(using FF)
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tantek
(also tried Safari)
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KevinMarks
it was working on FF on android
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JonathanNeal
http://sandbox.thewikies.com/autoanchor/ i put some example links at the top, those don’t take you to their respective locations?
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KevinMarks
hm, case sensitive?
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tantek
JonathanNeal - Selection object to actually select/highlight the text: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Selection
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tantek
that way if you're on a big screen you can more easily see the target of the scrolling
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JonathanNeal
tantek: i can implement that if you like. i think it’s worth discussion whether fragmentions/autoanchors should work like anchors, focus, find, or some combination.
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JonathanNeal
since you’ve all been discussing this for some time, what are the usecases / what do the people want?
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KevinMarks2
Who's good at browser extension
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KevinMarks2
Could we wrap Jonathan's fragmentions code into one, so it works on arbitrary sites?
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JonathanNeal
I may have it.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: re: use cases . i think the idea is to implement something like the annotations thing people have been talking about. a good first step seems to be able to link arbitrary parts of a document
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KartikPrabhu
likes this ## notation with the accompanying JS!
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KartikPrabhu
## also has the English translation of "fragment of a fragment"
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KartikPrabhu
which makes more senseto a human than xpath or something
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: can ##a be used to mean fragment-id="#a" in HTML? If yes, would this not be a conflict?
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JonathanNeal
Okay, now I know how extensions work. We just need an icon :)
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: ## in a square work?
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KevinMarks2
Can fragments start with #?
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: yes.
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: yes that was my question. I think they can
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KartikPrabhu
but I don't know the spec very well... and couldn't read through it intelligently :P
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KevinMarks2
Reading the rfc I think they can't
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KevinMarks2
sub-delims = "!" / "$" / "&" / "'" / "(" / ")" / "*" / "+" / "," / ";" / "="
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KevinMarks2
No # in there
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KevinMarks2
From the abnf in appendix A of rfc 3896
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KevinMarks2
Hm. That may make this an invalid url
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KevinMarks2
But if it did, it can't be addressed by an excellent compliant url
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JonathanNeal
Okay, the extension is finished. Not sure where to put it.
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JonathanNeal
Would someone provide a detailed description of fragmentions?
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tantek
JonathanNeal, KevinMarks - I figured it out - it was a Colloquy autolinking overescaping bug
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tantek
the ## links don't work in Colloquy, it escapes the 2nd # into %23, e.g. KevinMarks, clicking on the link with my surname goes to: http://sandbox.thewikies.com/autoanchor/#%23%C3%87elik
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tantek
note the #%23
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JonathanNeal
over-escaping, hmm.
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tantek
so I both like the quick and clever us of ## to mean a special kind of #, and yet, linking to annotations feels like something that would benefit from being crawlable / server-side manipulable as well
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tantek
also don't want to go down another /#!/ like path, so to speak
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tantek
there should be some prior art on this
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tantek
that we can learn from
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JonathanNeal
IMHO, hash anchors as hashbangs or storage are not really anchors, they’re hacks to avoid page reloads, whereas ## is actually a kind of anchor.
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Loqi
snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 2 hours, 30 minutes ago: running activity-streams tests got this error " File "./alltests.py", line 22, in <module> filesystem.load_template_source = filesystem._loader.load_template_source AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute '_loader '"
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snarfed
hey KartikPrabhu!
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snarfed
this is running just alltests.py ?
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GWG
Hello, snarfed
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snarfed
hey GWG!
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: in alltests.py, try removing the three lines under the comment that starts "Monkey patch to fix template loader issue"
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snarfed
might not be necessary any more
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GWG
snarfed: How are things?
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snarfed
…eh, actually, i think it is
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snarfed
GWG: ok! you?
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GWG
Still working on my starter theme
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GWG
I'm working on asides now
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snarfed
ah nice
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GWG
I'm worried I didn't mark up correctly.
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snarfed
i assume you've run it through parsers?
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GWG
Yes. But I always worry
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snarfed
heh. ship and iterate
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GWG
Well, once it gets to barebones status, it is going into github
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GWG
But look at it now. It isn't at that level.
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snarfed
great!
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GWG
You can look if you want.
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GWG
The testing site is up.
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snarfed
i'd throw it in github anyway
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snarfed
no req't that it's complete first
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snarfed
thanks
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GWG
Well, no so much complete as at a certain point.
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GWG
There is very little CSS styling.
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yeah just running alltests.py gives that error
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: ok. try commenting out those three lines i mentioned?
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KartikPrabhu
hmm will do
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snarfed
sorry for all the roadblacks
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snarfed
roadblocks even
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: np! chanign things now
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KartikPrabhu
!tell snarfed: after commenting out those lines I get "ImportError: No module named mox
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: too bad about the ##. I kind of liked them. It'll still be good if some other solution could be salvaged
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Loqi
snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 3 minutes ago: after commenting out those lines I get "ImportError: No module named mox
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snarfed
ah yeah, the test require mox, it's a python lib
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: also appengine.api I am assuming that is google app engine?
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snarfed
yeah, you'll need that too
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KartikPrabhu
this is the one linked in the readme yes?
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snarfed
I think the readme has links to all these
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KartikPrabhu
cool! I'll work through those...
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snarfed
actually I think mox is included in app engine
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KartikPrabhu
oh installed mox through pip
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KartikPrabhu
51MB! holy cow that's huge
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snarfed
:P lots of bundled libraries
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: what do you mean “too bad” did I miss something?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: I meant the fact that fragment ids can have id="#a" so a link to ##a would actually be a link to a fragment and your JS would hijack that
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KartikPrabhu
IMO it would be best if the default browser functionality is not hijacked
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JonathanNeal
That’s sad. Albeit I can’t find any examples of it on Google. Is this happening in the real world?
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kylewm
snarfed: is it reasonable for me to run a bridgy fork on appspot for development testing?
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JonathanNeal
Also, the double hash is currently not a URL code point and generates an error in the validator.
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snarfed
kylewm: if you want, sure!
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snarfed
I find I can usually do everything I need in dev_appserver
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snarfed
but up to you
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KevinMarks2
I say show off the demo and discuss it, we can come up with another syntax
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KevinMarks2
Or do a global crawl to see if #-preceded ids exist in the wild
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: 1. relatively no one has used ## thus far, 2. existing ## would still work because i do not stop propagation, and 3. ## appears to be presently invalid, thus providing an opening.
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tantek
aaronpk, btw - results of me asking about that pattern of overseeing/using of concepts like webintents, annotations, cards: https://twitter.com/t/status/456552583499243521
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@t
name of illusion causing proponents of a concept to see most things as that concept? e.g. webintents,annotations,cards (ttk.me t4Vb1)
(twitter.com/_/status/456552583499243521)
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tantek
(see replies)
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: sure, would you like to throw up an example page somewhere? And when should we tweet this to get feedback?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: KevinMarks2: I support the throw it in the wild and test philosophy. I don't know of anyone who has seriously used id="#a" or if browsers use those correctly, anyway. (Though I have used it unintentionally)
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kylewm
snarfed: do you use fake silo accounts to avoid filling yours up with test posts? :)
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tantek
JonathanNeal, KevinMarks - I also support the "publish a prototype demo" and get feedback policy.
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snarfed
kylewm: I actually get a long way with unit tests
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snarfed
but yes, also fake silo accounts occasionally for end to end testing
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kylewm
sigh, how responsible...
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kylewm
(just kidding, thanks!)
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KartikPrabhu
Bipedal walking simulations -- might be of interest/amusement to folks here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHjx4dYxjA
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JonathanNeal
so, throw a demo somewhere and tweet it tomorrow pt 10am?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: tweet/document it on indiewebcamp wiki ... all sound good
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tantek
yes - that
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JonathanNeal
Awesome, is someone already doing that on iwc?
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JonathanNeal
is not volunteering.
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KartikPrabhu
ok I'll make a /fragmention page
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JonathanNeal
++KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu
no the other way around ;)
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 18 karma
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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JonathanNeal
Your karma points can now buy cigarettes in the states.
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JonathanNeal
I will link to the iwc page on the github page. :)
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kartikprabhu.com
created /fragmention (+479) "started this thing!"
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KartikPrabhu
started a basic dumbass page...(never made a page from scratch before)
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2, JonathanNeal: please add to this: http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention
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JonathanNeal
Nice, KartikPrabhu.
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JonathanNeal
Another thing I can do is ignore ## when there is a matching, hash-lead ID that exists. Thoughts?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: that might work for your JS but will fail for a general linking idea
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JonathanNeal
Yes, though I see it both ways. I think this article and the feedback will matter a great deal more than these workarounds.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: agreed!
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JonathanNeal
All in favor of me dropping case-sensitivity?
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KevinMarks2
Yes, I think case insensitivity is a simple example of fuzzy matching
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KevinMarks2
Which was much discussed at the annotations thing
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: JonathanNeal: is it bad to just keep it?
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: as in, fuzzy matching is good?
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KevinMarks2
The high level debate as I saw it was that identifying the thing being annotated was more than just linking
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KevinMarks2
Lots of examples of wanting annotations to map across editions of books, even translations
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KevinMarks2
And edits - versions of documents
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks2: that's all good if annotaters are storing contexts locally. but still is there a need to drop case-sensitivity?
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: I was writing documentation and came up with this “Matching case is strict, but makes it easier to target specific phrases. Ignoring case is cavalier, but makes it easier to target anything.” If you agree with that statement, then my judgement was that anything > specificity.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: isn't marking specific things the point though... ?
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tantek
depends on your specific use-cases
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JonathanNeal
Do you think people expect ##call+the+dogs to not match “I told him to call The Dogs”?
#
tantek
which were sorely lacking in most of the annotations discussions
#
tantek
so I tend to discount what people were asking for / discussing at the annotations workshop for that reason
#
tantek
too unbounded by brainfarts
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KartikPrabhu
lets leave that to "test in the wild" shall we?
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tantek
sure - don't bother adding any new features until people seem to try to link to them
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KartikPrabhu
yeah so if currently you have case-sensitivity leave it at that and see if people complain
#
KartikPrabhu
and vice-a-versa
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KartikPrabhu
used 'vice-a-versa' incorrectly but no on complained!
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tantek
default to simpler more maintainable code
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tantek
make people justify feature requests with concrete real world examples with URLs
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KevinMarks2
I think case sensitivity is harder to get right. What about white space sensitivity?
#
KevinMarks2
Using more words is a better way to be specific than relying on case
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tantek
KevinMarks - post some specific examples of things you're trying to cite to help illustrate ;)
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KevinMarks2
Will do. I will write this up in a bit.
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2, KartikPrabhu, tantek, have tentatively added my thoughts to https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions may I add some of them to IWC page?
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tantek
that's the idea of the wiki! :)
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: as tantek said... just add them someone will edit if they want to do so
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jonathantneal.com
edited /fragmention (+889) "/* Overview */"
(view diff)
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jonathantneal.com
edited /fragmention (+1157) "/* Challenges */"
(view diff)
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jonathantneal.com
edited /fragmention (-2) "/* Brainstroming */"
(view diff)
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jonathantneal.com
edited /fragmention (-5) "/* Brainstroming */"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /mobile (+2073) "dfn, different meanings, a bit of expansion"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /mobile (+6) "/* articles = */ -= /cite"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
speaking of annotations has anyone played with the medium annotation on mobile yet.. for instance: https://medium.com/cool-code-pal/b21bfc1f63c7
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tantek.com
created /MediaGoblin (+229) "stub"
(view diff)
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arcatan
i've played with it in the sense that i always misclick and accidentally open the annotation column :(
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arcatan
or mistouch
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KartikPrabhu
lol! arctan... was just discussing the "too small target" issue with a friend
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KartikPrabhu
also once opened it seems quite broken
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: feel free to start http://indiewebcamp.com/annotation and add that medium annotation thing as a silo example ;)
#
tantek
(with qusetions/concerns noted :) )
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KartikPrabhu
yes.. planning to play around with it a bunch later. will add observations
#
tantek
would be good to See Also [[fragmention]] too ;)
#
tantek
just drop in a few URLs and quick notes for now
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tantek
even just that in a stub would be a useful start
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tantek
would help but is focused on fleshing out the /mobile page based on all the amazing discussions yesterday
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tantek.com
created /posting (+20) "r"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
what's a good defn of annotation :P
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KevinMarks2
Heh. We spent a day on that with the w3c and I'm not sure we got a good answer
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KartikPrabhu
haha! I am going to go with 'fragment level comments' which make more sense to me anyway
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kartikprabhu.com
created /annotation (+463) "annotation stub!"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
annotation page stub! everyone add examples and screenshots!
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /annotation (+46) "add fragmention"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
has anyone been POSSEing flickr photos? trying to convert a friend to indeweb ways...
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Garbee
Hm. A better definition of an annotation is probably "A comment added to an arbitrary segment of content."
#
Garbee
For instance on the Web Platform Docs wiki ( http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/Main_Page ) you can highlight any text, and then an annotation button will appear for you to add a comment about that specific part of content.
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Garbee
Annotations are really much more granular than just fragments of a page (which is another kind of (deprecated) comment system WPD has.)
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KevinMarks
that was the point of fragmentions
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Garbee
just learned something for today.
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Garbee
at just before 6AM I think that is pretty good. :D
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cweiske
Garbee, do you know how wpd does it?
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cweiske
the annotations?
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Garbee
cweiske: yea, some system one sec and I'll go over the ML.
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cweiske
ooooooh this is so awesome
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Garbee
It is a *really* nice system.
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Garbee
It is actually the kind of UX I was thinking of for a new bug reporting engine.
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Garbee
So people could report issues without leaving the content and have the exact place of the bug tied to the report (compared to relying on either a page with a bunch of content given, or even just "I saw X, go fix it." with no link. :(
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cweiske
yep, I want that for typos on my blog
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cweiske
spelling mistakes and so
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Garbee
Yea, for any kind of detailed writing, this hypothes.is is awesome.
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Garbee
cweiske: If you want, you can jump into #webplatform and bugger renoirb about it if you want. He is the sys op for WPD and is the one that setup hypothes.is afaik.
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Garbee
(he is probably asleep right now though, so wait until later if you don't get a response.)
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KevinMarks
part of the idea of fragmentions is to enable a webmention to target arbitrary text on the page
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Garbee
Yea, I remember there was some way with Chrome dev tools to point something out, then generate a fragmented URL to it even though there was no ID or other easily targetable thing around it.
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Garbee
I wonder how hypothes.is targets stuff and remembers...
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Garbee
Because I think it has done a great job of annotation UX. Much more granular than the traditional way developers think about fragments (mostly just being headings of sections.)
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KevinMarks
:D this is fun
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Garbee
:( I thought we had hypothes.is working off Wiki accounts (kinda like SSO, where it is all internal.)
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Garbee
That is a let-down.
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Garbee
KevinMarks: Do you know if http://www.w3.org/community/openannotation/ is the best way to keep up with this stuff? I'm not seeing much else from the W3C's site on Annotations (aside from the page from the workshop that just occured.)
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Garbee
I should probably ask Doug too. He'd know what else is going on here. He is into them as well.
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Loqi
it is probable
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KevinMarks
that was who organised the event we went to
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Garbee
Yea, saw that on this page: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/annotation/
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Garbee
The whole URL changing thing is major though. If there is a solution to that, (with as little/no extra markup needed) then it would be epic.
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KevinMarks
which thing?
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Garbee
Tantek said " the anchoring problem is important - cool URLs don't change " in the segment of meeting notes here: http://sandbox.thewikies.com/autoanchor/
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Garbee
But, URLs do change (especially with idiots like me switching blog systems every few months due to not being happy/whatever.
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Garbee
So being able to somehow transition annotations across URL schemes would be killer.
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Garbee
Also for things like WPD where we may move pages around in getting things organized, but people are annotating now with the current URL.
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KevinMarks
just added fragmention support to my blog
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KevinMarks
my Blogger blog....
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KevinMarks
thought that fails onthe mobile template
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rascul
oh fragmention
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rascul
up until now i've been reading it fragmentation
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rascul
this explains why it never made sense to me before
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KevinMarks
maybe the name is a bet too clever for it's own good
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+57) "/* Brainstroming */"
(view diff)
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Garbee
Whoops. I thought KevinMarks typo'd when he said fragmention.
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Garbee
:P
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Garbee
Not sure if too clever or I'm too stupid...
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KevinMarks
naming things is hard.
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KevinMarks
I should grab the domain tho'
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KevinMarks
.org or .com?
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Loqi
yea!
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Garbee
both just to be safe?
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Garbee
I'd probably go with .com though initially. Since it is a piece of tech and not necessarily an organization.
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cweiske
.com is commercial
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KevinMarks
.io is hipster
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Garbee
But like $90 a pop.
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Garbee
:/
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Garbee
I have garbee.me couldn't be happier!
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Garbee
jonathan@garbee.me for my email, and jonathan.garbee.me for my blog. So awesome to have those.
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+299) "/* Double-hashes in the wild */"
(view diff)
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+444) "/* Usage */"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
hm, it's 4:04 am will my links fail?
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Garbee
If that was supposed to highlight the Larry Page quote, it worked fine.
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KevinMarks
I thought it was an apposite one...
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cweiske
I got two highlights
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KevinMarks
I think that's cos my blog markup is a bit crappy
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KevinMarks
it's an <em> with <br> in, so it's not got a <p> to highlight
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KevinMarks
sorry, it was 11 years ago and I hadn't learned good semantic markup then
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KevinMarks
wow, what a lot of crappy tlds .technology?
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KevinMarks
.guitars?
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KevinMarks
though I am tempted to register foo.camp
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pdurbin
huh. didn't know about .camp
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pdurbin
is someone gonna snag indieweb.camp?
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KevinMarks
that's what they want you to do...
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pdurbin
it's a money making scheme? all these domains?
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cweiske
it costs ~200k to buy a new tld
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cweiske
so the buyers probably want to get their money in again
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pdurbin
hmm. makes sense
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Garbee
KevinMarks: Yea, Generic TLD's are going to make a mess.
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Garbee
.dev is being sought by Amazon (first in line) and then Google.
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Garbee
I'd love for .dev and .local to be made reserved.
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Garbee
Because a lot of devs use those two locally for testing/dev stuff. Like I route all .dev on my router to my local server box. That way I'm not changing the hosts file on all my boxes.
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KevinMarks
.local is reserved
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KevinMarks
at least, it's used for multicast DNS on the local network
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KevinMarks
.localhost is explicitly reserved
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pdurbin
in my /etc/hosts on linux I see localhost.localdomain
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KevinMarks
anyone want to proof read my post?
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cweiske
I found no errors
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cweiske
btw, I don't like the issue that this makes urls invalid to the spec
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KevinMarks
that does make me nervous too
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KevinMarks
maybe #* would be better
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cweiske
you can precent-encode it
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cweiske
which makes it harder to write
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cweiske
or use /
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KevinMarks
OTOH that would mean percent encoding covers the "id starts with #" case
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cweiske
which is used for searching in the unix world
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cweiske
in less or vim or so
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KevinMarks
'cos * means both footnote to normal humans and wildcard match to geeks
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cweiske
or bullet point
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+93) "/* indieweb implementations */"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
do I tweet a link to my page, or to my blog?
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cweiske
to the permalink
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KevinMarks
or to fragmention.com
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KevinMarks
hm, 6am. I should go to bed
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aaronpk
this is crazy, it's like 24-hour chat in here now
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aaronpk
new linode plans! time to update the indieweb server
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aaronpk
will be double the ram, but only 4-core CPU instead of 8
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aaronpk
seems quiet in here, i'll reboot it now. will be down for about 90 minutes.
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cweiske
my openid server is not down
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cweiske
but every application that relies on indieauth.com is not usable at the moment
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cweiske
every application relying on openid will still work, even if a user's openid server is down
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aaronpk
cweiske: you're welcome to set up your own indieauth server, it's the same idea as openid
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cweiske
aaronpk, I can't
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aaronpk
it's just the last thing people usually want to do is build an auth server
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cweiske
because the *application* says which indieauth server it uses
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aaronpk
delegating to indieauth.com is equivalent to delegating to myopenid.com
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aaronpk
no, the site does. view source on aaronparecki.com for "authorization_endpoint"
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cweiske
that's what I mean with "site"
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cweiske
site=application in this context
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cweiske
with openid, the user decides which auth server is used
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aaronpk
s/the site does/my site specifies which indieauth server to delegate to/
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: no, my site specifies which indieauth server to delegate to. view source on aaronparecki.com for "authorization_endpoint"
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cweiske
so unless *you* change your website to point to a different indieauth server, login to that site broken for everyone
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cweiske
with openid, I only have to change my homepage if my openid server is down and point to a different one
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aaronpk
the first thing ownyourgram.com does when you sign in to it is query your site for the indieauth endpoint
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aaronpk
just like openid
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aaronpk
in fact the "authorization_endpoint" rel value is from OpenID Connect
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cweiske
this defeats the acclaimed simplicity from indieauth and makes it as complex as openid
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cweiske
s/defeats/removes/
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Loqi
cweiske meant to say: this removes the acclaimed simplicity from indieauth and makes it as complex as openid
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aaronpk
that's what I'm attempting to solve with this http://client.indieauth.com/signin
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kbs
KevinMarks - re: alternatives to ## - did you already consider #@phrase ? [or #?phrase would be legal too I think
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kbs
though I wonder if non-compliant parsers would run into more trouble with #?]
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aaronpk
so an app can "delegate" auth to an indieauth client, and the client is responsible for doing the discovery on the user's domain
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aaronpk
which means best of both worlds, easy to use by apps, apps can switch to new indieauth clients as needed, and users can choose which indieauth provider to use on their own
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kbs
ah - nice - so this is for use by non-browser apps?
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aaronpk
both really
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kbs
very cool
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kbs
Ok - I see better now :) also gives the user the option to switch the indieprovider itself
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aaronpk
my pushups ios app uses that right now
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aaronpk
yes exactly
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kbs
I like it :) nice
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kbs
[sorry
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kbs
just saw the previous logs :)]
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aaronpk
kbs: thanks! this client.indieauth.com thing came up only because I was dreading writing an indieauth client in objective C, and I figured I would end up re-using it for other projects if it existed
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tantek
aaronpk - love that you developed it with the real world example of your pushups app rather than all the architecture astronomy* that went into all the OpenID abstractions. * http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html
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aaronpk
wow that's a great article
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kbs
heh, that's a good article
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aaronpk
I feel like this article could be re-posted now replacing all the tech with the 2014 version
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aaronpk
"Soap + WSDL may be the Hot New Thing, but it doesn't really let you do anything you couldn't do before"
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tantek
nicely done on exploring fragmentions KevinMarks and JonathanNeal - especially the /fragmentions page!
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aaronpk
s/Soap + WSDL/JSON + JSON-WSP/
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tantek
exploring/prototyping on the open web on your own site(s)!
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aaronpk
"It's nice that we can use XML now for the format on the wire. Whoopee."
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aaronpk
s/XML/JSON/
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: "It's nice that we can use JSON now for the format on the wire. Whoopee."
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tantek
hahaha - yeah
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tantek
all of this has happened before and all of it will happen again
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm trying to figure out a good place to cite that article on indiewebcamp.com but not sure where
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tantek
maybe antipatterns?
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aaronpk
oh yeah totally
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aaronpk
over-abstraction is the antipattern
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tantek
it's also an instance of plumbing-focus rather than user-focus
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aaronpk
right!
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tantek
note Joel's comment about missing the point about being able to type the name of a song and listen to it
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tantek
he's referring to UI-focus
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aaronpk
totally, that's actually more important
#
tantek
and loss thereof
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tantek
exactly
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aaronpk
"If Napster wasn't peer-to-peer but it did let you type the name of a song and then listen to it, it would have been just as popular."
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aaronpk
(see spotify, rdio, etc)
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tantek
aaronpk - I think you just came up with an awesome follow-up post, or at least the key pieces there of :)
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tantek
re: XML->JSON, and Napster->spotify/rdio
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aaronpk
heh true
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KevinMarks2
http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html post for the West coast morning people
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tantek
KevinMarks - saw! see logs above 8:36am :)
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aaronpk
reading now...
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aaronpk
kept reading that as "fragmentations" when scanning the logs
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adactio
KevinMarks2: I've linked to your post here: http://adactio.com/journal/6751/
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KevinMarks2
Maybe I should camelCase it. fragMentions
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tantek
no please no
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tantek
lookout KevinMarks, you've been adactio'd ;)
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KevinMarks2
Also I need to make my blogger template work on mobile
#
tantek
yes that
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KevinMarks2
Thanks adactio
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adactio
my pleasure
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tantek
Kevinmarks, you may be interested in: https://indiewebcamp.com/mobile#mobile_friendly :)
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KevinMarks2
Aha. Kevinmarks.com is, just not epeus.blogspot.com
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KevinMarks2
Well, it uses blogger's mobile template, which does not seem as editable
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aaronpk
what does fragmentions do when there's multiple matches for the text?
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tantek
first match I think
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JonathanNeal
Thanks, tantek
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KevinMarks
yes, first match
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KevinMarks
the point is not to pick the minimal match for the link so much as to cite enough text to be unique
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aaronpk
makes sense
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aaronpk
wow yeah that's so much nicer than id fragments
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tantek
KevinMarks - the implementation on your blog only scrolls right? I didn't see any text/line/element highlighting
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KevinMarks
I think ~10 words is globally unique (like the Stoppard quote)
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aaronpk
I see some sort of highlighting
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KevinMarks
it highlights too, but I think it gets cropped by some layout issues
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KevinMarks
looks like some margins are cropped?
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KevinMarks
did you add the script, or was that for use in chrome?
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V_S_C
The links on IndieWebCamp comprehensively guide developers regarding different web-centric areas- silos, standards, annotations, offline apps. But I was looking to find coverage of comparative relation with extensiblewebmanifesto site promoted by Brendan Eich at Fluent2014
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JonathanNeal
Good morning (from PT)!!
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks, tantek, are we ready for some in the wild testing of fragmentions?
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aaronpk
already put it on his site :)
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: ^ ? Really?
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JonathanNeal
https://twitter.com/jon_neal/status/456839901003005952 would you (all) make a tweet yourself or retweet that? It’s start getting feedback.
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@jon_neal
Fragmentions! A proposal/polyfill to use ## anchors as links to individual words or phrases in a document. https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions
(twitter.com/_/status/456839901003005952)
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kbs
JonathanNeal KevinMarks2 - is the invalid-url thing still an 'issue', or not thought significant?
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kbs
JonathanNeal: ah, okay - thanks. I was going to ask if you two had already considered #@ (or #?) but it sounds like a non-issue.
#
kylewm
Don't know if it's worth mentioning, but IRC client (Emacs/ERC) scrubs out the second #
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kylewm
do you see the same, kbs?
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aaronpk
what do you mean "scrubs"?
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kylewm
when I click on the link, it opens in browser with only one #
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kbs
kylewm: my version of erc - goes to: http://aaron.pk/a4VU1%23%23Find+the+dependencies
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kbs
also has tweaked erc mercilessly, and also runs noscript so... :)
#
kylewm
oh! actually it's not ERC. I think it's the redirect from aaron.pk
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aaronpk
oh yeah some browsers don't play nice with redirects with fragments
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: just tested your link sent at 10:00am. Worked great for me in Chrome.
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kylewm
anyone else test in FF?
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JonathanNeal
Mike Smith pointed me to http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-code-points, presently valid characters include !, $, &, ', (, ), *, +, ,, -, ., /, :, ;, =, ?, @, _, and ~. That’s not to say we couldn’t try to update the ancient spec.
#
kbs
kylewm: yes - http://aaron.pk/a4VU1##Find+the+dependencies on FF and [an old safari fwiw] seems to strip out the second # after redirection
#
JonathanNeal
kylewm, aaronpk, worked for me in Chrome, but failed in FF. FF trimmed the second hash.
#
kbs
fwiw - @Find+the+dependencies" target="_blank">http://aaron.pk/a4VU1#@Find+the+dependencies works ;-)
#
KevinMarks2
I was thinking about this while cycling.
#
KevinMarks2
## can't be a collision, as you'd have to escape the second one
#
KevinMarks2
However, #* seems a reasonable alternative as * means both footnote and wildcard match
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: likewise, @ means mention.
#
KevinMarks2
Similarly, an id can contain any character except a space
#
JonathanNeal
like @horsejs on social netweosk.
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JonathanNeal
s/netweosk/networks/
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Loqi
JonathanNeal meant to say: like @horsejs on social networks.
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KevinMarks2
So if there is a space in the fragment it can't be an id and must be a fragmention
#
KevinMarks2
# is the signal for a text search though
#
KevinMarks2
So if a fragmention is always more than one word, we may not need the ## at all, and could just overload #
#
JonathanNeal
Are we comfortable leaving ## in the wild for now or should I update it to use a valid convention?
#
kbs
haha, that's a neat, but tricky idea
#
Loqi
haha
#
KevinMarks2
Let me get on the laptop, doing this on the phone is fiddly
#
KevinMarks2
Hmm the mac crashed when I shut the lid. Wonder if I lost anything
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KevinMarks
interesting - CIRC shows upas an app in the dock now, even though it's a chrome app. wonder when that happened
#
KevinMarks
so, should we capture this validity discussion in /fragmention ?
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: I plan to add notes about ##, #@, and #*, but I want to know if I should update the actual scripts to target a (presently) valid syntax that would also work in FF.
#
JonathanNeal
I’m looking for consensus.
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KevinMarks
oh, I registered fragmention.com, fragmention.org and fragmention.net too...
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aaronpk
oh sweet
#
KevinMarks
I think we are seeing strict URL parsers fail with ##
#
KevinMarks
so accepting #* makes sense to me
#
KevinMarks
they're currently redirected to my post, the indiewebcamp page and the github repository respectively
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aaronpk
ha nice
#
aaronpk
nice use of TLDs
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: I think your url is wrong on that page - you're http://johnathantneal.com, right?
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KevinMarks
s/johna/jona/
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Loqi
KevinMarks meant to say: JonathanNeal: I think your url is wrong on that page - you're http://jonathantneal.com, right?
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KevinMarks
(being tethered to a phone on the train means my wifi is spotty
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+1) "/* Brainstorming */ fix Jonathan's URL"
(view diff)
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JonathanNeal
I am jonathantneal, que?
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+235) "/* Double-hashes in the wild */"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
the link on the fragmention page was to jonathanneal.com
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KevinMarks
have you logged into the wiki with that?
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JonathanNeal
Whoops! I didn't write that. Haha.
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KevinMarks
s/that/jonathantneal.com/
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Loqi
KevinMarks meant to say: have you logged into the wiki with jonathantneal.com?
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KevinMarks
'cos your userpage is blank
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KevinMarks
so, could we hook up fragmentions with webmentions and get medium-style comments on paragraphs?
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: sowwy?
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KevinMarks
this is a thought for aaronpk et al who have webmentions working
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aaronpk
I would love to give that a shot
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KevinMarks
another thing would be to make a purple numbers style thing that made fragmention URLs to copy per paragraph
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aaronpk
what are purple numbers?
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@Bjorn_W
current thesis: if an online service is not sharing their software as #floss you may want to reconsider investing into it #hackpad #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/456855035360448512)
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aaronpk
ah cool
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KevinMarks
hover over a para to see a ¶ sign, which include the id
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aaronpk
i wonder if those could be generated client-side
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aaronpk
so that people could just drop in a js file that creates them
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KevinMarks
I think so. look for <p>, take first 5 words, make fragmention?
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aaronpk
maybe limit to within an .e-content element?
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aaronpk
or the author adds a class around a containing element to activate the JS
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KevinMarks
Is <p> not a suitable signal? though that would fail on my ancient crappily marked up <b> and <br> posts
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aaronpk
i wouldn't want it to add them to the comments for example
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+59) "/* indieweb implementations */"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
seems like a case for a css expression?
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: heh that link isn't going to work for very long cause that note will drop off my /notes page
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KevinMarks
for eg, I can see <article> being a signal for some people
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aaronparecki.com
edited /fragmention (+52) "update aaronpk example URL"
(view diff)
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JonathanNeal
Catching up on the discussion. Interesting thoughts on the focus scope.
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KevinMarks
hm, google hasn't indexed us yet, interesting
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kylewm
out of curiosity, did this start yesterday with the link to annotatorjs.com or was there previous discussion about it?
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@jon_neal
RT @kevinmarks: further discussions with @jon_neal about fragmentions in the #indiewebcamp irc. See http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html and http://t.co/…
(twitter.com/_/status/456858526933975040)
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aaronpk
I would love to see fragmention.com host two JS scripts, the one that exists now for the polyfill, and the other for authors to add fragmention links onto their posts
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KevinMarks
yes, thats what set me off, and jonatahn ran with it
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal++
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Loqi
JonathanNeal has 3 karma
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KevinMarks
literally ran, he had a polyfill done in 15 mins and on github in under an hour
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aaronpk
JonathanNeal++
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Loqi
JonathanNeal has 4 karma
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KevinMarks
likes it when people instantiate my handwaving
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: would you be willing to break down fragmention links to me? I don’t know what those are, or at least not know that term.
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aaronpk
the thing KevinMarks mentioned earlier
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JonathanNeal
is lost. sorry. would someone esplain or pm me to esplain?
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JonathanNeal
Thought #2, re: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-code-points so a bunch of characters are invalid, does that limit fragmentions in general?
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KevinMarks
no, because you can percent encode them
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KevinMarks
"The URL units are URL code points and percent-encoded bytes"
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: you’re right. Whew.
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KevinMarks
already tried with tantek's surname
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: breaking a bunch of articles or paragraphs into IDs seems bloated to me, but I like that it would let you match the second or third instance of a particular word or phrase.
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JonathanNeal
Can this limitation in search fragmentions actually be improved to allow second, third, last matches?
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: and that makes me happy, noted.
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KevinMarks
we should test with emoji ;)
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Loqi
fo sho
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snarfed
don't stop at the fragment, through them in the path! and then in the domain itself!
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snarfed
(bonus points for coming up with an emoji scheme)
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snarfed
(er, throw)
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: the fact that that worked is awesome
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KevinMarks
unicode FTW
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KevinMarks
though the hotlink didn't see them
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KevinMarks
that might be safari not escaping right, I think only firefox does that on copy
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JonathanNeal
Would someone describe the rationale for using @ or *, or what those symbols represent in other contexts?
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KevinMarks
@ is a mention, but of a person, not text - I think that's less clear (I know it's used in xml for attributes, but that is esoteric)
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KevinMarks
* is the universal footnote symbol, and also used as "wildcard match"
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KevinMarks
downside is that this may imply regex to people, and we don't want 2 problems in our parsers
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snarfed
here's a small-ish project idea: a scraper that periodically fetches and parses all known indieweb sites and spits out the percentage that implement different features (e.g. webmention, rel-syndication links, etc.)
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JonathanNeal
Mike Taylor could not reproduce the second hash trimming in Firefox 28 and 31 nightly.
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aaronpk
snarfed: an indiemark crawler?
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snarfed
aaronpk: sure!
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aaronpk
sounds like fun :)
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snarfed
i was actually thinking for more fine grained questions, e.g. how widely adopted are rel-syndication links?
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snarfed
for making product decisions in projects like bridgy
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@schnarfed
@dewitt so true! the #indieweb people have been fighting this problem for years, and continue to this day. (https://snarfed.org/2014-04-17_twitter-dewitt-schnarfed-off-topic-but-bummer)
(twitter.com/_/status/456870057025368064)
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kbs
JonathanNeal: fwiw my 0.02 from the peanut gallery - #* looks fine to me
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kbs
I did find #@ easy to read aloud as "link at 'this phrase'"
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aaronpk
lol amber just got a webmention where the source was an email address
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aaronpk
(probably a pingback converted to a webmention)
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snarfed
"source: private correspondence"
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kylewm
any objection to adding a 'See Also' section at the bottom of /Help:Editing that links to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Formatting ?
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aaronpk
good idea
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kylewm.com
edited /Help:Editing (+94) "add link to MediaWiki formatting help"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
edited /posse-post-discovery (+1298) "/* Discover POSSE copies via rel-syndication */ details"
(view diff)
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tantek
again from the Architecture Astronaut article: "Those are all /sending/ operations, so our clever thinker invents a new, higher, broader abstraction called /messaging/, but now it's getting really vague and nobody really knows what they're talking about any more." - Wow - "all /sending/ operations" - totally predicted the "all /sharing/ operations" that Google/Android/Intents folks have gotten sucked into.
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tantek
aaronpk - in case you were looking for more material for your follow-up blog post ^^^ s/sending operations/sharing operations :)
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tantek
GWG - http://david.shanske.com/ gives a 403 Forbidden and https uses a certfiicate for torahacademy.us
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tantek
whoa that was odd - now your URL works with http
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tantek
hmmm - both the Cambridge and NYC Guest Lists are a bit janked in terms of headings and heading levels, e.g. "Creators" is a subhead under "Volunteers" which makes no sense.
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tantek
attempts to fix based on previous Guest Lists
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+1257) "fix a bunch of ordering and section stuffs, add Jeremy as co-organizer"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+79) "fix a bunch of ordering and section stuffs"
(view diff)
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tantek
brianloveswords: can you make it to at least a day of IndieWebCampNYC? or help out in anyway? Sign-up! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
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tantek
KevinMarks - sign-up and let's figure out flights etc.: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
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brianloveswords
tantek: Depending on when I get back from Boston during the day on Saturday, I can try to stop by for some of that, but I'm flying out to SFO on Sunday at 7:30am for the MoFo all hands, so I can't make any of that day.
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GWG
tantek: I just did a cut and paste on the Guest List
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Garbee
haha, this is so true and hilariously written: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/remote-participation/
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GWG
Based on the Cambridge one, as asked.
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brianloveswords
tantek: I can help promote it though, I'll tweet it out and I'll mention it tonight at BrooklynJS
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tantek
GWG - yeah - I hadn't taken a close look at the Cambridge page which had its own problems
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tantek
so I just fixed up both :)
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GWG
As for the site, looking into it now
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tantek
GWG - you did great - it took very few tweaks to fix
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GWG
tantek: The original 403, what was the user-agent?
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tantek
Firefox
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tantek
when I tried just a few minutes later it "worked"
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tantek
transient error
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tantek
brianloveswords: please sign-up even if you can only make it for part of Saturday
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tantek
that's no problem at all - would be great to have you there for any part of it
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tantek
and yes - any help promoting would be great!
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tantek
including sending people here (to this IRC channel) for help!
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tantek
(and general lurking of interest)
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GWG
Okay...so not a blocked user-agent
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tantek
right
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tantek
I mean I guess check your error logs for around 15:50 or so EDT for a 403 on your home page
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+108) "note need to update images to 128x128"
(view diff)
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bjb.io
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+555) "/* Creators */"
(view diff)
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bjb.io
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (-46) "/* Creators */"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC (+833) "update look & feel similar to Cambridge, clean up a bit"
(view diff)
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@brianloveswords
If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456895878822125568)
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (-1) "sort, update counts"
(view diff)
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@dansinker
RT @brianloveswords: If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456896013609877504)
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tantek
Thanks Brian!
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brianloveswords
No problem tantek!
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@jonmarkgo
RT @brianloveswords: If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456896126218948608)
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge (+25) "fix volunteers link"
(view diff)
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tantek
brianloveswords: could you also create an event for it on Plancast.com and create http://lanyrd.com/2014/indiewebcampnyc/ as well?
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@dshaw
RT @brianloveswords: If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456896261480656897)
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tantek
brianloveswords: and then update the Lanyrd / Plancast links here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC#RSVP please! :)
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@canuckistani
RT @brianloveswords: If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456896492037746688)
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@schnarfed
RT @brianloveswords: If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456896521641160705)
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brianloveswords
tantek: I've never actually used either Plancast or Lanyrd, I'll try to figure 'em out though
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tantek
you can sign into both with Twitter sign-in
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tantek
one sec
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GWG
tantek: I think it is the referrer
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tantek
GWG - whoa that's odd
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GWG
I had a problem a while back with Wordpress bots.
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tantek
yikes
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@indiewebcamp
RT @brianloveswords: If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456897547521757184)
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GWG
Yes, it is classifying indiewebcamp as a bad referrer
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@beaulebens
RT @brianloveswords: If you're around NYC 4/26 and/or 4/27, you should go to NYC IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
(twitter.com/_/status/456898400190226432)
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bjb.io
edited /2014/NYC (+1) "/* IndieWebCampNYC 2014 */"
(view diff)
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bjb.io
edited /2014/NYC (-9) "/* IndieWebCampNYC 2014 */"
(view diff)
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bjb.io
edited /2014/NYC (-8) "/* RSVP */"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
how can I upload mulitple files to the wiki
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aaronpk
one by one :)
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brianloveswords
tantek: okay, Lanyrd and Plancast should be up: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC#RSVP, let me know if I messed anything up there.
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tantek
awesome! Can you add those same links to the equivalent spot on the /2014/NYC/Guest_List page? near the top
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kartikprabhu.com
uploaded /File:medium-annotation-icons.png.jpg "screenshot displaying annotation icons in Medium"
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kartikprabhu.com
uploaded /File:medium-annotation-sidebar.png.jpg "annotation display in Medium"
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kartikprabhu.com
uploaded /File:medium-annotation-sidebar-med.png.jpg "annotation display on medium-sized viewport"
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kartikprabhu.com
uploaded /File:medium-annotation-overlay.png.jpg "annotation display on overlay in Medium.com"
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GWG
tantek: I can't fix the SSL thing. I don't use SSL, but another site I'm hosting for a nonprofit does
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GWG
Unless I buy more certificates or another IP
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /annotation (+726) "/* Medium */"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
added some screenshots of Mediums annotation UI
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /annotation (+4) "/* Medium */ fixed wrong image"
(view diff)
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JonathanNeal
dracos++: that is a really cool usage
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Loqi
dracos has 1 karma
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snarfed
at minimum, you can configure your server to only serve SSL and the cert on the domain that supports it
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dracos
JonathanNeal: I’d been idly wondering about how to link to bits within speeches that would work if, say, a speech was updated/moved (as Hansard on TheyWorkForYou sometimes does) that didn’t involve IDs, this certainly seems like one such way :)
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KartikPrabhu
good to see fragmentions already being used!
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: interesting that your medium screenshot has a Mike Taylor who != bear
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KartikPrabhu
yeah that is weird :)
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aaronpk
would love to have the option for fragmention.js to add a class to the highlighted section that I could style with css
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: i had the idea of firing an event, but the onfocus event already fires.
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aaronpk
oh funny
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JonathanNeal
also, hashchange would have fired
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dracos
aaronpk: you could do something with element.className where the focus is (or classList with slightly less browser support). element.className = element.className ? element.className + ‘ fragmention’ : ‘fragmention’
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aaronpk
wouldn't it be easier if I could just write some CSS to style .fragmention?
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dracos
aaronpk: yes, you’d do just that once you added that line
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aaronpk
oh i gotcha
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aaronpk
I could add javascript to add the css
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: good idea, hmm.
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aaronpk
hm wait now i'm not so sure
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dracos
that line would add the class to the element, then you could style it separately however you wanted
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dracos
you’d have to also have a line to remove the class when the hash changed to de-highlight (or whatever it was doing)
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aaronpk
it might already be stylable via :focus
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: okay, want to see my idea?
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aaronpk
YEAH it works!
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aaronpk
:focus { background-color: #ffc
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aaronpk
nvm then! I can do it with this!
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JonathanNeal
nvm then. I had the idea of writing the fragmention to the location object.
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JonathanNeal
window.location.fragmention = decoded fragmention
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: but then that CSS would be for everything that is in focus. It would be good to add a .fragmention class to the element to keep things separate
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aaronpk
how many things can be in focus at a time?
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KartikPrabhu
only 1. but do you want to have the same background colour to indicate general focus and fragmention focus?
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KartikPrabhu
if so then that is fine
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aaronpk
however it seems that I can tab around to make different things in focus
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KartikPrabhu
yes... that is what I was saying. Focus is more general than what happens with fragmentions, and it would be good to keep them separate in CSS too
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aaronpk
I wanna let tantek chime in here since we're getting into CSS land
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KartikPrabhu
sure thing
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: 1. onfocusin you would check the URL for ##, or 2. i could expose fragmentation on the location object, or 3. I *could* also add an onfragmention event.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: As I see this situation, using JS to style something is always overkill! I would just add a class="fragmention" to the element using JS and then have whatever styles using CSS
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JonathanNeal
I’m just discussing ways I can expose that to you.
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KartikPrabhu
oh I see...
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: oh so you are saying that fragmention.js should not add the class but trigger some event and the site can do the rest...
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aaronpk
that's not how normal things work with css tho
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aaronpk
thinking about other things browsers implement natively
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aaronpk
like :focus
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aaronpk
(might need a hard refresh to get my new css)
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: and I used tab and the highlight on the fragmention was gone even though the URl still has the fragmention
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KartikPrabhu
that i think is counter-intuitive... but that might be just me
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aaronpk
this is because fragmention right now is tied to :focus
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KartikPrabhu
even a stray click removes the focus and hence the highlight
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dracos
KartikPrabhu: no, it is to me too. I’d just add a class as per my comment above, I’ll probably make my fork do that
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yeah. tie-ing it to focus might not be best. But maybe we should wait for more feedback on this
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@CaptainCalliope
@ownCloud @fkarlitschek There's an IndieWebCamp event in NYC next weekend. Interested in joining a Boston delegation? http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC
(twitter.com/_/status/456922280275476480)
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aaronpk
i'm out of my element here, just experimenting with things. I don't trust my own judgment on these kinds of things, so definitely want to wait for more feedback
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aaronparecki.com
edited /fragmention (+52) "/* indieweb implementations */ note custom CSS"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
also tried a quick test adding the .fragmention class which of course doesn't have the problem of clicking around losing the highlight
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yeah...
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aaronpk
works well, would like to see that experience
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KartikPrabhu
and that way readers can also go on read other things and then come back
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dracos
aaronpk: have put class additition/removal in my add-a-class branch: https://github.com/dracos/fragmentions/compare/add-a-class . Just fixing it to work when your client goes to …#%23… which my IRC seems to do
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: :fragmention would be a separate discussion, yea.
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+324) "/* Upcoming */ +Loom"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
Right, off to get bandwidth and power before caseorganic talk
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dracos
aaronpk: SayIt now works with encoded # in the fragment, and is adding a ‘fragmention’ class that highlights: http://leveson.sayit.mysociety.org/hearing-24-november-2011/ms-joanne-rowling?c#%23certain+creatures
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dracos
(not removing it on hashchange, just debugging that!)
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kbs
dracos: great site (sayit) - very cool
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dracos
kbs: Thanks :)
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KartikPrabhu
dracos: nice work! I didnt anticipate the remove class on fragment change probelme
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JonathanNeal
dracos: let me affirm how well you are keeping my code conventions. Some really good pull requests will change unnecessary things and your script is just as I would have written it.
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dracos
KartikPrabhu: I had the code, but I’d forgotten className isn’t self-modifying ;) Is working now.
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KartikPrabhu
on sayit?
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dracos
KartikPrabhu: yeah
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dracos
JonathanNeal: Do as you would be done by, I always say :) Even if I have to do a horrible space->tab replacement each time ;)
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KartikPrabhu
dracos: doesn't seem to be removing the class
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dracos
KartikPrabhu: the HTML is heavily cached (an hour by default IIRC), so you’re probably seeing that, change the query parameter to check
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JonathanNeal
Yes, if you had polluted my code with double spaces I would have cried.
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dracos
KartikPrabhu: sorry, I didn’t think it worth bringing out the varnishadm command :)
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KartikPrabhu
dracos: working confirmed! nice
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Loqi
dracos has 2 karma
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JonathanNeal
dracos: at first, I was like “Why is he wrapping the .+, ugh, I’ll have to change this” then I saw you use it and was like “Nice optimization” and then I thought about why you would need to use it, and I was like “Thank you, dracos”.
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gRegor`
Nice choice of Jenn Schiffer's article for /annotation page, KartikPrabhu. Haha
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gRegor`
She's hilarious
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dracos
JonathanNeal: :-) (and change requested made, flattery will get you everywhere)
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GWG
snarfed: I saw your note...I'm not sure if you can do it if all domains don't have SSL.
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KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: yeah! it is also funny how most people who comment don't get the sarcasm!
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snarfed
GWG: "it" is…sni? or disabling ssl for only some domains?
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snarfed
the details depend on your web server and other details, but most major servers can definitely do both
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gregorlove.com
created /annotations (+24) "redirect"
(view diff)
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GWG
snarfed: Disabling SSL for only some domains with the same IP. And it is Nginx. Will have to research moe.
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gregorlove.com
edited /annotations (+0) "capitalization matters"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Aha. wiki page titles have text-transform: capitalize
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gRegor`
I was wondering why it showed up like that even though the page was lowercase
KevinMarks_, pfenwick and _6a68 joined the channel
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gRegor`
kbs: I remembered BitMessage today and was going to ask your thoughts on it, if you were familiar. https://bitmessage.org/wiki/Main_Page
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KevinMarks_
reads logs
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kbs
gRegor`: not enough to have any useful opinions on it I'm afraid
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gRegor`
I think I actually installed it and ran a test with it once, months ago. Interesting, though not sure it's very feasible.
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gRegor`
Figured I'd mention it at least.
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Loqi
dracos has 3 karma
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kbs
gRegor`: ah, okay - nice. My own itch [I guess] doesn't involve anonymous communicaton, and I'm much more comfortable with building on top of existing cryptosystems - so didn't really spend much on it
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dracos
KevinMarks_: nice quote :)
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KevinMarks_
I already loved sayit for making it easy to grep shakespeare, but linking to a line in scene context is better
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dracos
KevinMarks_: It would have to do a bit more work to be cross-line (and then it might as well treat whitespace as “ “), and it still highlights the whole speech, as there aren’t any paragraphs, but yeah, more robust than most things I can think of
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KevinMarks_
highlighting the speech is good for actors... (my son did Tempest and Twelfth Night since September)
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KevinMarks_
does the whitespace collapse not already happen? I thought that searching the element tree did that
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gRegor`
kbs: One of the things I do like about it is that the sender doesn't have to have the recipients public key, just their hash (BitMessage ID). It's still not easily readable, but it seems a step in the right direction
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dracos
KevinMarks_: oh you’re right, it works across a <br>. Doesn’t appear to across a <p> though.
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KevinMarks_
that seems to be the case. is this a block vs inline thing?
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kbs
gRegor`: ah, that's interesting - thanks. fwiw, I guess the pgp world seems to think of fingerprints as being equivalent to the same idea [there are enough lookup servers available/hostable that obtaining the public key(s) is not thought of as a tricky problem]
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JonathanNeal
dracos: thanks for the change, I’m having the team review it (but it will be brought in)
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dracos
KevinMarks_: It’s looking at textContent, so it’s what’s actually there, e.g. http://leveson.sayit.mysociety.org/hearing-13-march-2012/mr-richard-fedorcio?asd##actually.%0a%0aWe+can works because it has two newlines
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JonathanNeal
I started working at a University that is actually making really cutting edge stuff. Only they haven’t had a lot of experience working with the larger internet community, so I’m encouraging them to get involved by letting them review the projects. Thanks for your patience.
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KevinMarks_
hm. that seems non-ideal - collapsing whitespace to single spaces and matching would be better
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gRegor`
kbs: True, but as we've discussed, the verification out of channel is a pain point there.
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gRegor`
Some of those key servers aren't even ssl
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dracos
KevinMarks_: yeah
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kbs
gRegor`: right
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kbs
verification has always been the main issue.
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gRegor`
Not that I think a blockchain including public keys is very scalable, either, heh
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KevinMarks_
the tricky part of using the public keys in the blockchain for communication is that you are using the same key to read messages as you do to send money
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kbs
so one thing I'd point out is that if (like bitcoin) you merge identity with the id, people can do things like create a pseudonymous email address eg: <fingerprint>@gmail.com -- which has a lot of the same properties
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KevinMarks_
JonathanNeal: I did wonder why you used the university github and not your own
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KevinMarks_
dracos: I think the second # being encoded is someone taking the URL RFC seriously, and a marker for why we might want to switch to #*
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_
weird, Adactio's Twitter card gets the title wrong in https://twitter.com/elroyjetson/status/456937359435517953 DRY failure?
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gregorlove.com
created /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox-row (+324) "Created page with "<includeonly> <tr> <th scope="row" class="navbox-group" style="padding: 0.25em 1em"
(view diff)
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Loqi
background-color: #ddddff
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Loqi
border-bottom: 2px solid #fff;">{{{row-title}}}</th> <td style..."