2014-04-16 UTC
# 00:00 tantek and if not, what is it missing in what you would otherwise call a "mobile client"?
# 00:00 snarfed tantek: this is kind of the standard mobile web vs native apps debate
# 00:00 kylewm tantek: Webber definitely does run his own MediaGoblin
# 00:00 kylewm he's active on pump.io (which MG is built on I think)
# 00:00 tantek no its not the "standard … debate" - it's focused on "what is it missing in what you would want"
# 00:01 tantek the "standard … debate" is more conceptual / handwavy / dogmatic / useless
# 00:01 kbs speaking for myself, primarily it's the ability to do crypto locally and access content on the device. Browsers don't have sufficient access for these.
# 00:02 tantek kbs - "crypto locally" is not a feature any "normal" user cares about. It's not a use-case at all. What's the actual feature you're talking about?
# 00:03 snarfed for my part, i was thinking of the common points that native apps (currently, in practice) are faster, more responsive, much more tolerant of offline/flaky connectivity, can interact more richly with the device and other apps, etc
# 00:03 tantek kbs - "access content on the device" - do you mean keeping content locally accessible without HTTP? you can do that with your website using localstorage.
# 00:03 snarfed (yes, technically there are web standards for doing much of that, but in practice they're pretty far behind)
# 00:04 kbs tantek: not really. Specific case in point - I want to automatically upload pictures taken from my phone to some online store (and later on archived to my local drives)
# 00:04 kbs all this, I'd like to keep encrypted from start to finish
# 00:04 kbs whenever the phone gets into wifi range, automatically.
# 00:04 tantek kbs - private message - already exists - m.twitter.com implemented that via DMs
# 00:05 tantek snarfed, "native apps" are only "faster" in practice due to VERY BAD javascript practices (bloated libraries etc.) on the part of majority of web developers.
# 00:06 snarfed i can try to address that on my own site, but not on most other sites.
# 00:06 tantek snarfed, but your own site is all that matters here - that's what we're talking about
# 00:06 tantek making your own site your indieweb mobile client
# 00:07 tantek and re: "current reality" - my site tantek.com loads and displays faster than Twitter iOS client
# 00:07 tantek so no - current reality is: don't use lots of crappy JS, and you can beat loading perf of any native client
# 00:07 tantek "more responsive" is a problem because of the .3s click/tap delay which there are workarounds for. Though that is a real problem that a web developer has to make a special effort to fix.
# 00:08 tantek (assuming by responsive you mean - latency responsive)
# 00:08 snarfed tantek: page loading is one special case of performance in general…but i understand your point.
# 00:08 tantek (because obviously in terms of layout responsive, mobile web sites kick butt over native fixed layouts)
# 00:08 snarfed eh, native fixed layouts are generally ios-specific, not mobile in general
# 00:08 tantek (mobile native clients are usually crap for even portrait vs. landscape responsiveness)
# 00:09 snarfed but at a higher level, i'll rephrase. for me personally, ditching native apps for web sites is not at all an itch i currently have or want to tackle. i'm here mostly for owning my own data, not so much preferring web to native apps
# 00:09 tantek "much more tolerant of offline/flaky connectivity" - this one does require more work on the part of the web developer
# 00:09 snarfed well, and also browser support, which can take a while to trickle out to mobile oses
# 00:09 tantek snarfed - I find "native" apps so much more crash prone that I often use their equivalent mobile web site instead.
# 00:10 tantek snarfed, agreed, the "offline" use-case is huge
# 00:10 tantek and no one has built decent libraries for that for mobile web app development
# 00:10 kbs senses a religious schism here :) ah well
# 00:10 tantek snarfed - less of a debate, more of an attempt to understand specific points
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# 00:11 tantek kbs, everything above cites specific examples, unless you're saying people prefer "native" clients due to marketing
# 00:11 tantek kbs, except you made the "senses a religious schism" remark
# 00:12 tantek snarfed, competely agreed on this: "can interact more richly with the device and other apps" re: "native" over web
# 00:12 snarfed hence why you've been pushing hard on the ios url schemes for that?
# 00:13 tantek snarfed - that's just *one* aspect that I'm personally pursuing for a very specific use-case
# 00:13 kbs tantek: remark comes from not actually seen you respond to my specific use-cases either
# 00:13 kbs and perhaps it's because you haven't got around to it, dunno
# 00:13 tantek on a broader - device hardware etc. perspective, FireFoxOS is developing WebAPIs for all the various device capabilities
# 00:14 tantek kbs - I'm going depth first on snarfed's comments first ;)
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# 00:30 kbs I'm mostly agnostic I guess - I use browsers as UI-on-the-desktop, and mobile-apps-as-UI on phones. They all access 'the web' as I understand it anyway
# 00:32 kbs Maybe I misunderstood tantek 's point of view on this - my impression is that he'd much rather just have browsers on phones for all most activities
# 00:33 KartikPrabhu I'll avoid putting words into tantek's mouth. but the point is that for most things apps do exactly the same thign as websites but sort of worse
# 00:34 KartikPrabhu for eg: why should I make 2 apps iOS and Android while I can do the samething with a website?
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# 00:34 kbs yes - this nutty phase of doing an identical app for a website is silly
# 00:34 kbs but for myself, I've about a 50/50 split of actual things I need to do on the phone that need a specialized app
# 00:35 KartikPrabhu and so is the demand that everything should have an app especially indieweb
# 00:35 KartikPrabhu kbs: there maybe things for which a native app is better, but I doubt they are that many and useful for any definition of "not geeky/normal" users
# 00:37 kbs but specific things that I don't think I'm particularly unusual - podcasts, archiving photos to and from my phone, offline email
# 00:38 kbs I don't really have an ax to grind - just really think there are things that browsers do well, and other things that [as of today] native apps do well. This has always been the case on the desktop as well, and the mix changes over time
# 00:39 KartikPrabhu kbs: they don't seem unusual/weird but I wonder how many people actually do that?
# 00:39 KartikPrabhu or to remain closer to topic: what is one thing that an indieweb site would need an app to do?
# 00:40 kbs doesn't think of an 'indieweb' as synonymous with a site - guess maybe that's where things go a bit haywire :)
# 00:41 KartikPrabhu I don't have an ax to grind either, but I am mildly annoyed by "no app == not relevant" attitude
# 00:45 kbs thanks :) was wondering. but speaking for myself - my thought vis-a-vis your question [I hope!] is more of a situation for me - roughly centered around archiving stuff off my phone easily
# 00:46 kbs so to take a concrete example of one such thing
# 00:46 kbs I have about a gig or so of random photos that accumulate on my phone. What I want is a simple way to archive that safely
# 00:46 kbs and I honestly can't think of a browser-based way to accomplish this
# 00:47 kbs but I do have apps that do just this
# 00:47 kbs and I don't really think much about it beyond that [ie, don't have any deep desire to make it a browser-based feature for some reason]
# 00:47 kbs I consider this indieweb for example - it's my data, and I'm saving it in places that make sense to me
# 00:49 KartikPrabhu kbs: to a similar question I brought up once, aaronpk (I think) answered that at the moment indieweb means owning your web identity. For instance indieweb does not mean that we should host our sites on our own machines
# 00:51 kbs There are some overlapping places surrounding 'identity' and 'contact management' though, where things are a bit more gray
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# 01:00 KevinMarks caseorganic: is your SF talk tomorrow night? I signed up for it but can't find the note
# 01:04 kylewm I think I still have it open from clicking the link that you might have tweeted? :P
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# 01:21 aaronpk so I guess my thing about this app discussion is more related to making things more modular
# 01:21 aaronpk I have no desire to build a reader into p3k for example
# 01:21 aaronpk I don't want to develop or maintain all of the parts needed for a reader
# 01:22 aaronpk and doing so would actually be making p3k more of a mini monoculture
# 01:23 KevinMarks which just makes android notifications that link through to tweets
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# 01:24 KevinMarks if i make it link to indie notes too, then it cna be the same
# 01:24 aaronpk I'd rather use external apps (native or web, doesn't matter) to consume feeds and they would create content like favs/reposts/replies on my site via my micropub endpoint
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# 01:26 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: agreed wit modularity. but that is quite independent of "indieweb native apps"
# 01:31 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: elaborate? I thought you said "(native or web, doesn't matter)"
# 01:32 aaronpk right, so if I build p3k as an API (h-entry for consuming, micropub for creating) then I can use either native or web apps with it rather than tying myself to either decision
# 01:33 KartikPrabhu true! but i thought the whole argument was about whether "indieweb" apps were 'needed'
# 01:33 aaronpk totally, I expect to be able to do that from an external app
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# 01:35 aaronpk I think they are needed, otherwise we're painting ourselves into a monoculture hole. If every indieweb project has to implement unified reading/writing, then we're really just building mini silos.
# 01:36 aaronpk we shouldn't be making decisions that prevent native apps from being possible
# 01:37 gRegor` I'm a little confused on the usage of p-author vs p-name. I'm looking at your mentions page as a guide, aaronpk
# 01:37 aaronpk hm I don't seem to be setting the p-author properly
# 01:37 gRegor` I'm doing mine slightly differently. I don't have a full reply context yet, so don't list my author information there. I basically want to quote (h-cite?) people's mentions in a stream.
# 01:38 gRegor` E.g. John Doe replied to [post title] "blah blah blah"
# 01:38 aaronpk heh I just realized... should I be publishing those as h-cite or h-entry? (the content from other people)
# 01:38 gRegor` I can show a mockup, just a moment.
# 01:39 gRegor` I . . . I don't know. :) I was thinking h-cite
# 01:39 aaronpk yeah that makes more sense now that you mention it
# 01:39 gRegor` I'm also a bit confused on the distinction of p-comment.
# 01:41 gRegor` Hm, not yours. Maybe I got that elsewhere. Or misread.
# 01:48 tantek has been wrestling with power (electrical) problems this afternoon.
# 01:49 gRegor` But it may only make sense in context of appearing on the same page as the h-entry the webmention is in response to.
# 01:49 tantek would say something about indiepower, but the problems were all local, the grid appears to be fully operational.
# 01:56 tantek aaronpk - short answer: the h-entrys in a mentions feed should have identical data to the actual h-entrys that *are* the mentions.
# 01:56 tantek if there's any use-case that that doesn't work for - please document it
# 02:01 tantek gRegor`: I don't think that example makes sense
# 02:01 tantek what are you trying to communicate with that example?
# 02:01 gRegor` It's going to be a stream of webmentions I have received. Similar to Twitter's "Mentions" page.
# 02:02 tantek (i.e. if it's an entire entry, then it doesn't need to be an h-cite. there's no value in marking it up as an h-cite)
# 02:02 gRegor` I only put one in the example
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# 02:02 tantek if all you were doing was citing a summary of the entry, e.g. name, URL, dt-published, then sure an h-cite would make sense
# 02:02 gRegor` I was thinking h-cite was a way to let parsers know the h-entry is not mine, but someone elses.
# 02:03 tantek parsers know the h-entry is not yours from the u-url of the h-entry and the p-author of the h-entry
# 02:03 tantek assuming by "yours" you mean your home page (URL) and your name (i.e. h-card)
# 02:04 gRegor` Got it. Makes sense.
# 02:06 gRegor` Hm, that section confuses me more, actually.
# 02:06 tantek that's right. in that context you're merely referencing (citing/quoting) the comment (even if you're quoting the whole thing). you're not intending it for syndication / transport
# 02:07 tantek whereas in a mentions feed, it's entire purpose is to syndicate / transport that information to some other visualization (like the mention-app)
# 02:07 tantek it only gets (somewhat) confusing if someone decides they want to syndicate the comments on a specific post.
# 02:08 gRegor` I hadn't even thought about mention-app, but that's an added bonus. :)
# 02:08 tantek I know there are feed files that do that sort of thing, but in practice people don't really use that.
# 02:08 tantek not sure how to capture those answers in an FAQ
# 02:08 tantek gRegor`: if you can figure out where to capture some of your questions and those answers (i.e. where you might have discovered it originally and had it make at least some sense to you), I'd appreciate it!
# 02:09 gRegor` I think you lost me a bit on the syndicating comment from a specific post, but don't worry about that for now. I understand the small piece I need to. :)
# 02:10 tantek ok yeah - then ignore the bit about syndicating comments from a specific post
# 02:10 tantek as in forget about it. if it's an actual use-case someone cares about, it will come up again, and happy to recreate my thinking on that from first principles at that point.
# 02:17 gRegor` Working on capturing this. "mentions-stream" or "mentions-feed" might be a candidate new page?
# 02:17 gRegor` Adding a Q&A on h-cite to begin
# 02:19 tantek to at least handle that h-cite vs. h-entry question
# 02:21 kylewm like if I wanted to parse werd.io, how would I get to werd.io/content/all ?
# 02:21 tantek unrelated pro-tip: if you Mac Mini starts up with a very loud high-revving fan that won't turn off, do the following: 1) shut down. 2) unplug its power cord for like a minute. 3) hold the power button down for 10seconds (resets SMC). 4) release power button. 5) plug power cord back in. 6) gently but firmly press power button to turn it back on. <-- this just worked for me.
# 02:21 Loqi tantek meant to say: unrelated pro-tip: if your Mac Mini starts up with a very loud high-revving fan that won't turn off, do the following: 1) shut down. 2) unplug its power cord for like a minute. 3) hold the power button down for 10seconds (resets SMC). 4) release power button. 5) plug power cord back in. 6) gently but firmly press power button to turn it back on. <-- this just worked for me.
# 02:23 tantek (advice on the web by searching Google sucked, as usual)
# 02:23 tantek (this kind of tech Q&A stuff is seemingly unsolved by search engines)
# 02:23 tantek (and then you have lame login-wall silos like Quora)
# 02:23 KevinMarks that is the apple answer but you have to search for reset pmu
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# 02:24 tantek KevinMarks - you're mistaken. this is special about the mac mini
# 02:24 tantek and yes - that same confusion is present on many of the "answers"
# 02:24 tantek and "zap the pram" gives you lots of old out of date info
# 02:25 tantek gets lost briefly in reading werd.io thanks to kylewm
# 02:27 kylewm haha, sort of a bad example since he's not using h-feed, but for posse-post-discovery I'm trying to figure out how to find syndicated content for sites that don't have (all) posts on the front page
# 02:31 tantek will try to catch-up with the awesome mobile web apps vs. native apps state of development discussion
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# 02:35 KevinMarks2 Hm, it'd cost me $500+ to fly to nyc for indieWebcamp, let alone accommodation. I've left this too late really
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# 02:46 rascul oh it's right there on the front page right where i would miss it
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# 06:08 kylewm what's up with the first comment? is that you sharing your own post?
# 06:09 KartikPrabhu lol.... eh it is me sharing your comment on my post to the same one! :P
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# 06:10 kylewm I just sent you an issue on mf2py to restore balance to your todo list (but i will look at fixing it tomorrow, you don't need to)
# 06:11 KartikPrabhu thanks! more to go... adding better display and all that... but that for tomorrow.
# 06:12 kylewm ack, it might be a regression from my recent change? i don't remember it doin that
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# 07:18 KevinMarks2 The HTML element was down to html5lib, wasn't it? We want to use html5lib, so may need a specific patch
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# 08:05 bupkes hmmm having trouble accepting webmentions. need to fiddle with the WP settings i think.
# 08:06 cweiske bupkes, you can send webmentions yourself with curl
# 08:06 cweiske so you can re-send the one webmention you got again and again yourself
# 08:06 bupkes cweiske Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately I don't know how to use curl right now. Will look into it.
# 08:10 bupkes on my desktop? One laptop with windows, one on ubuntu
# 08:12 KartikPrabhu i am up (unfortunately) and can help since I am working on mention parsing for my site too
# 08:13 bupkes kartik yes i din't get it. but i've changed my settings now, could you try again if you get a moment?
# 08:14 bupkes kartik: I'm using sempress on WP with some plugins so this should all work fairly smoothly. I think I just need to check the correct boxes
# 08:15 bupkes Aha just webmentioned myself and that worked, so that's promising.
# 08:15 bupkes kartik: must be pretty late over there...
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# 08:18 bupkes kartik: no I don't think so
# 08:21 KartikPrabhu it worked through your form. I got "WebMention received... Thanks :)"
# 08:23 bupkes kartik: thanks.
# 08:26 bupkes I think I had a setting wrong. I think it should all work now. I've sent myself a couple (without using the form) and they've got through.
# 08:29 bupkes thanks, glenn - yes it worked. wonderful.
# 08:37 cweiske bupkes, that black font with black shadow is strangely unreadable
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# 08:38 bupkes cweiske yes i know, only just installed the theme and changed colours. changing it now...
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# 08:42 bupkes re: font. Have change it now, hope it less eye-watering. Have just installed thee
# 08:42 bupkes *theme*, and am hoping to change the css but am still learning html/css and don't want to change too much too soon for fear of breaking the whole thing
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# 09:19 KartikPrabhu cweiske: I know! Hence linked to diff. types in footnote. Article was meant for the uninitiated :)
# 09:20 cweiske Webmention has the major advantage that it uses HTTP to all the talking
# 09:20 cweiske heck, even stating that it's using POST is nothing new
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# 09:23 KartikPrabhu cweiske: also was just working on my response display at the moment :P
# 09:23 cweiske pinback sends a XML document via POST, while webmention uses application/x-www-form-urlencoded as content type
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# 09:25 KartikPrabhu cweiske: I'll have to think how to be more correct while not over-whelming people with this technical (though imp.) point
# 09:26 KartikPrabhu "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein ;) lesson learnt
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# 09:30 KartikPrabhu cweiske: hopefully that is the only factual error! appreciate if you find more
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# 10:18 cweiske KartikPrabhu, "The blogs of old, withered (some even say, died1)
# 10:18 cweiske there seems to be something missing in this sentence
# 10:26 KartikPrabhu cweiske: thanks for pointing that out. Will have to hand-edit the svg
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# 16:37 kylewm aaronpk: do your "View on Instagram" links leave off rel=syndication on purpose?
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# 16:38 kylewm I was working on posse-post-discovery, noticed that I can find your twitter/facebook links but not instagrams
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# 16:42 kylewm hmm, mf2py should still be picking up on u-syndication though...
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# 16:44 kylewm oops yeah ... still curious about rel-syndication but i am finding the IG links now
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# 17:29 kylewm aaronpk: no good reason to use both from my pov. i wasn't handling u-syndication correctly, so it picked up your rel-syndication links on twitter/fb but not instagram because it didn't have them
# 17:30 kylewm but that was good bc i found the bug in u-syndication :)
# 17:30 aaronpk that was cause of a change in how i'm generating those links, switching from silo-specific handling to generic syndication handling
# 17:35 kylewm KevinMarks2: you were right, it was exactly the html5lib handling of the html tag ... my memory wasn't working so great last night apparently!
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# 18:33 snarfed maybe consider linking to the responses themselves too?
# 18:33 kbs ^^ :-) took the words out of my mouth...
# 18:38 kbs and [maybe it's just me] a comment/response is more interesting to read than a like/retweet. So if the "more interesting responses" were more prominent, it'd be even easier for me to scan the responses
# 18:40 kbs has found the readability trick to be a reasonable heuristic in the absense of other info
# 18:42 snarfed KartikPrabhu: you've seen how p3k and idno (and fb and twitter) handle likes/reshares vs comments, right?
# 18:44 KartikPrabhu I have seen the facepile... but the trouble is that some reposts have nice text like Kyle's but others are just retweets
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# 18:45 snarfed KartikPrabhu: yeah, understood. you could see whether there's text or not, and if so, treat it like a comment
# 18:45 aaronpk KartikPrabhu: if a repost has additional text, then it's really more like a comment and can be rendered as such?
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# 18:45 KartikPrabhu snarfed: but bridgy mentions also have text. I'll have to use some criteria of 'good text'
# 18:46 snarfed no shame in special casing bridgy. it is kind of a special case
# 18:50 kbs basically remove all links and markup, count commas and word count)
# 18:52 snarfed comma density implies complexity of writing? interesting. makes sense
# 18:54 kbs :-) the arc90 stuff probably works best for long articles - but some of the heuristics [especially the quick/dirty ones, like removing all links before scoring] might be interesting
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# 19:07 gRegor` Hey KartikPrabhu, nice work on the responses format
# 19:08 gRegor` One small suggestion: not as many lines. I'm a fan of a single line separating responses. If there's two, though, I think the bottom one should encapsulate the date.
# 19:09 gRegor` Purely aesthetic :)
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# 19:11 KartikPrabhu gregor`: I have been thinking that my design in general is a little 'liney'
# 19:13 gRegor` Well, something is up with css-tricks looks like
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# 19:15 gRegor` "Block reason: Access from your Country was disabled by the administrator." D'oh
# 19:19 gRegor` Anyway, it was a cool fade in from left, then fade out to right, using CSS linear gradients.
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# 20:25 KartikPrabhu tantek: no need to worry... Twitter is well on its way to becoming the next BF
# 20:25 Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: tantek: no need to worry... Twitter is well on its way to becoming the next FB
# 20:26 KevinMarks and they are now sending notifications and putting unread counts on things
# 20:30 KartikPrabhu I knew a lot of people who rejoiced when large headers were introduced first in G+ and the FB
# 20:31 KartikPrabhu I almost think that these companies have to keep changing things even if they work, for fear of losing interest...
# 20:31 tantek KartikPrabhu: it started with about.met - doing enormous header / profile images.
# 20:31 Loqi tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: it started with about.me - doing enormous header / profile images.
# 20:32 KartikPrabhu tantek: you should've seen G+ header monstrosity before they shrunk it back down!
# 20:33 tantek hahaha - well it goes without saying that G+ copies both FB and Twitter. ;)
# 20:39 KartikPrabhu people should use svg more... though it is sort of a pain to create properly
# 20:40 KevinMarks a new design idiom - I think the cards/ columns thing is not quite there
# 20:41 tantek also both words are available as a .com domain name as of seconds ago in case you or someone is tempted ;)
# 20:43 Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: with giant headers of nude physicists!
# 20:44 KevinMarks "we haven't had a naked woman this episode yet" " lets randomly have one on a table at the wedding"
# 20:44 rascul at least most of game of thrones nudity is direct from the books
# 20:45 tantek (yes it's a thing we came up with to direct off-topic tangents)
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# 20:48 tantek if you think aaronpk is actually publishing "cards" or card-like things - add them with URLs and screenshots to /cards
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# 20:49 KartikPrabhu tantek: here 'cards' seems to mean somethign diff. I thought of cards a the particular visual look that Google Now has
# 20:49 tantek not at all - Google Now is an example on that page!!!
# 20:50 tantek KartikPrabhu: I think you'll have to take a screenshot and diagram what you mean about aaronpk's site.
# 20:52 KartikPrabhu i mean you're homepage... looks like you have 'cards' of all your posts
# 20:52 Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: i mean your homepage... looks like you have 'cards' of all your posts
# 20:53 snarfed yeah, sounds like KartikPrabhu just means the visual look of individual pieces of content inside rect borders, often with rounded corners, against a different colored/patterned background
# 20:54 snarfed yeah, card has become a common design term for a piece of content that can be embedded in different places
# 20:54 gRegor` e.g. Twitter cards.
# 20:55 snarfed or even the full content, since long form is generally the exception
# 20:55 snarfed not necessarily. more just a self-contained rendering of an atom of content that may show up in the original place or somewhere else
# 20:55 snarfed (e.g. google now cards aren't syndicated, at least not outside google)
# 20:56 gRegor` For Twitter...
# 20:56 gRegor` "cards" are when they embed content from external sites.
# 20:56 aaronpk i think a key component is also that they look consistent anywhere they're embedded
# 20:56 gRegor` And you can make your content support Twitter's cards. That's apparently why Instagram photos stopped auto-embedding.
# 20:57 gRegor` Don't ask me anything technical
# 20:57 gRegor` haven't looked into Twitter's "card" spec
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# 20:57 KartikPrabhu is wondering if the 'cards' thing can be used a UI for some indie stuff. reply-contexts?
# 20:58 gRegor` I'm not sure I like the usage of the term "cards" the way Twitter does. but I guess it works
# 20:58 gRegor` Guess it's less jargon-y than "embed"?
# 20:59 gRegor` "indiewebcamp: you won't get bored!"
# 20:59 gRegor` Or "stay awhile... stay forever!" a la Impossible Mission (Not Mission Impossible)
# 21:01 kbs needs radiocarbon to accurately date himself
# 21:07 KartikPrabhu that is why I am confused. I think of cards more like a visual style than an actual thing...
# 21:08 snarfed KartikPrabhu: the term is used for both the design pattern and the visual look
# 21:09 snarfed it's what i described before, and you thought was "vague" :P
# 21:10 gRegor` Er, isn't "design pattern and visual look" the same? :)
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# 21:10 snarfed well yeah, since neither the design pattern nor the visual look is web-specific
# 21:11 snarfed KartikPrabhu: if you're still interested, googling 'card design pattern' has good results
# 21:12 kbs oh, you had me pretty confused as well :) [me immediately associates 'design patterns' with something else altogether]
# 21:12 KartikPrabhu snarfed: but in any context 'card' just seems to mean 'a bundle of data' which is basically everything in that context
# 21:13 kbs ben_thatmustbeme: yep [speaking for my confusion anyway, but now think I'm up to speed]
# 21:13 snarfed KartikPrabhu: yes. you're right, it's a broad pattern. maybe one key point is that it's usually an atom of data, not a collection
# 21:13 kbs I think one paragraph within in an article would not be 'a card'
# 21:14 kbs however, possibly a summary/abstract of an article might qualify as 'a card'
# 21:14 snarfed cards are good for atomic, short form units of content like fb posts, tweets, now cards
# 21:15 snarfed (list usually implies a simpler, e.g. single text line representation)
# 21:15 aaronpk i thought you normally see google now cards one at a time
# 21:15 snarfed should probably stop trying to explain this since he's not a UX designer
# 21:24 tantek tries to catchup and sees a wall of text - hmm - no capturing discussion to wiki to summarize?
# 21:24 KartikPrabhu tantek: Mostly I am confused about what a 'card' is, apart from just a 'bundle of data'
# 21:25 tantek KartikPrabhu: discussing such things in the abstract (i.e. wall of text) is nearly useless
# 21:25 tantek Upload real examples of cards to discuss, embed them on the /cards page, and then we can discuss details of *real* examples instead.
# 21:25 KartikPrabhu true! so here is a concrete question: What is an example of something that is not a 'card'?
# 21:26 tantek there's nothing real there - that question is 100% conceptual.
# 21:26 gRegor` Not a discrete answer, either.
# 21:26 gRegor` "XML is not a card"
# 21:26 gRegor` There ya go. ;)
# 21:26 tantek gRegor`: not an indiscrete answer but rather a meta-answer, questioning the question itself ;)
# 21:27 gRegor` Didn't mean you, tantek. Just the "what is not X?" question
# 21:27 gRegor` I do get his confusion, though
# 21:27 tantek KartikPrabhu: if you don't have a specific real world example of something you think is a card, then there's not much point in discussion.
# 21:28 KartikPrabhu tantek: that is what I am trying to understand. What do people mean by cards? since there is a page /card people must have some notion
# 21:28 tantek gRegor`: the method being applied here is pragmatic socratic method, whereby a question is met with counter-questions requesting real-world connections/relations/examples.
# 21:28 tantek KartikPrabhu: that page has both a definition and specific examples.
# 21:29 gRegor` No, I get you, tantek. :)
# 21:29 gRegor` I was just saying there's no real good answer to "What is not X?"
# 21:30 KartikPrabhu since they are "small information summaries, often summaries of specific web pages. "
# 21:31 gRegor` I think "external I think "specific, *external* sites" might be helpful there.
# 21:31 gRegor` Wow, nice sentence, gRegor
# 21:31 gRegor` Glad it made some sense
# 21:32 tantek gRegor`: I applied automatic error correction and dropped the apparently duplicate prefix
# 21:32 gRegor` Benefit of being around nerds :)
# 21:33 gRegor` How is the page now?
# 21:34 gRegor` I don't think so. It led to changes. :)
# 21:36 gRegor` Any indieweb people have a tweet with a youtube link in it recently?
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# 21:38 gRegor` adding specifically to Twitter Cards page
# 21:38 KartikPrabhu maybe that is a good example to capture... compare original note post with out embedded youttube 'card' with the twitter one
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# 21:42 kbs I think of cards as more about 'summary' rather than about 'external'. Example [from earlier] -- "full paper" == not-a-card
# 21:42 tantek Cards is one of those things like annotations. Once you start thinking of things as "cards" you start to think of nearly everything as a "card". (specific context: may make more sense to folks like hober and kevinmarks who were at the W3C Web Annotations Workshop a couple of weeks ago - see #ianno14 for some leftovers)
# 21:43 KartikPrabhu tantek: I think we discussed annotation before and yes that was my confusion with cards too
# 21:43 KartikPrabhu kbs: by your definition than my archive page with summaries of articles would qualify.... interesting
# 21:43 tantek KartikPrabhu: if you discuss some new concept X and start to think that everything is X, then you may be lost yes.
# 21:44 tantek Same problem happened with Google Web Intents. The proponents of Google Web Intents saw everything as an "intent", which pretty much doomed it.
# 21:44 aaronpk tantek: does that pattern have a name? that's fascinating
# 21:44 kbs KartikPrabhu: sure - I think each summary would probably work as a card [for me anyway] but I wouldn't call the entire list of summaries as "a card"
# 21:45 KartikPrabhu though I am pretty much on board with cards = external embedded content like reply-contexts and auto-embedded youtube videos
# 21:46 tantek aaronpk - not sure. it is definitely a linguistic/psychological phenomenon that I've seen repeatedly over the years (web intents, annotations, and cards are just the latest specific examples)
# 21:48 tantek aaronpk - another example, RDF/Semweb people see everything as "triples"
# 21:49 tantek it's a particularly infectious kind of meme that is a metameme that rewrites your notions of previous ideas (memes) in terms of itself.
# 21:50 aaronpk "a golden hammer is an over-reliance on a familiar tool"
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# 21:51 tantek it's like a kind of nail, that when you see it, all other nails look like that nail.
# 21:51 Loqi tantek meant to say: it's like a kind of nail, that once you see it, all other nails look like that nail.
# 21:52 tantek seeing something pretty doesn't make everything else look pretty
# 21:57 tantek also - we could just hotlink to Twitter's own Card Example images right?
# 21:58 gRegor` I have, but figured it'd be worth capturing how they look at this point in time.
# 22:02 KevinMarks there is the phenomenon that when you get, say, a poodle, you see poodles everyehere
# 22:04 gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Do your notes not receive webmentions?
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# 22:04 gRegor` I tried to manually send you one from the Twitter Cards page and it failed. :)
# 22:05 KartikPrabhu gregor`: yeah I was planning to get the webmentions working on articles correctly and then add them to notes too
# 22:06 gRegor` Well, you're wiki famous now
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# 22:15 gRegor` Should /post just be a redirect to /posts and the information merged? Not sure how useful the distiction is on separate pages.
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# 22:15 gRegor` s/distiction/distinction/
# 22:15 Loqi gRegor` meant to say: Should /post just be a redirect to /posts and the information merged? Not sure how useful the distinction is on separate pages.
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# 23:43 KartikPrabhu seems like another silo, would be interesting to see how they do federated annotations
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# 23:52 kylewm KartikPrabhu: I've always wanted a service like that that would let me suggest grammatical corrections
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# 23:52 kylewm if enough visitors suggest it's -> its, then it automatically notifies the author...something like that
# 23:53 KartikPrabhu specially since webmentions has already solved the federated comment thing
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# 23:56 kylewm huh, that's an interesting idea. indieweb replies to a particular word/phrase/sentence a la medium.com
# 23:56 kylewm or like you can reply to a line of the irc log
# 23:57 KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah. though I don't know how to mention a particular fragment in a post