#indiewebcamp 2014-04-24

2014-04-24 UTC
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rascul gRegor` i used facebook for awhile and didn't know until now that those were for permalinks!
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gRegor` Yep. :) Twitter does the same.
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gRegor` I think it's a pretty common pattern
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rascul interesting
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kylewm noticed they aren't permalinked in the android Twitter app which I found frustrating yesterday
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Loqi [mention] http://www.sandeep.io/184 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-23/line/1398297406 (webmention)
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gRegor` kylewm: You mean a web permalink from the Twitter app? I guess the "Share" option would work. I've used it to text a tweet to someone before.
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KevinMarks Apparently my train is going to make me late for Homebrew Website Club
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KartikPrabhu http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##one+morning
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rascul KartikPrabhu it doesn't seem to work here
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KartikPrabhu rascul: it has wrong capitalisation :P
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KartikPrabhu http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##One+morning this should work
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rascul yes it does
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rascul i would recommend though that you look at this http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fkartikprabhu.com%2Fstatic%2Fdemo%2Ffragmention.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
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rascul what did i just read
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rascul a story about gRegor` waking up one morning? heh
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gRegor` Basically
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gRegor` Different Gregor though
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rascul oh
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gRegor` :)
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gRegor` I did not turn into a cockroach
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KartikPrabhu wait you guys didn't know that gRegor` is just one big rat ??
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gRegor` I was telling Kartik how about 1/3 of the time when people learn my name, they ask "Oh, like Kafka?"
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rascul i'm so confused
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rascul i tried reading the story again, by the time i finished a sentence, i had already forgot it
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gRegor` Here ya go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Metamorphosis
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KartikPrabhu HWC - Chicago progress report. Responses tied to urls instead DB objects. So now notes are accepting webmentions! :D next: display responses in notes
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gRegor` And I've got webmentions displayed on posts now.
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gRegor` Signing off for Chicago
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KartikPrabhu boom!
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kbs kafka++ :-)
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Loqi kafka has 1 karma
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KevinMarks Stuck outside Mozilla in San Francisco
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tantek greetings from SF!
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aaronpk tantek: greetings from pdx!
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tantek aaronpk - we're in the IndieWeb Vidyo channel
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tantek er, room
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tantek do you have the URL for that?
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aaronpk I don't remember it
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tantek (also there seems to be a cleaning scheduled at the same time)
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+143) "/* indieweb implementations */ idno!" (view diff)
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benwerd It's going to be very clean in here.
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benwerd Can you hear us?
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tantek any stragglers in SF - ping here and we'll go get the door
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@benwerd If you're trying to get to Homebrew Website Club SF, we've moved to a different room. Ping IRC or tweet with #indieweb and we'll see it :) (twitter.com/_/status/459143993498947584)
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bret aaronpk is running around trying to find the right cables
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aaronpk somehow lost my mini display port to hdmi
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: welcome Sf and portland to Homebrew Website Club (twitter.com/_/status/459145805883277312)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we have 3 new people here in SF and 2 new ones in portland (twitter.com/_/status/459146093683814402)
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bret http://paulmunday.net/
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bret http://www.psyhigh.com/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @marihuertas: my domain is http://marihuertas.com (twitter.com/_/status/459146550087008256)
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KartikPrabhu bret: ummm is psyhigh someones personal domain?
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tantek Brian, working on http://boozybrowser.com/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Brian: my site is http://boozybrowser.com/ that simulates being drink online (twitter.com/_/status/459146725115301888)
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tantek http://erinjorichey.com/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @erinjo: My domain is http://erinjorichey.com (twitter.com/_/status/459147013662466048)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: idno didn't use to support subdirectories for @erinjo, but it does now (twitter.com/_/status/459147175126368256)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: IndieWebCamp NYC is this weekend - tell your NT friends to come http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (twitter.com/_/status/459147331678781440)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we added a new category for IndieWebCamp NY - Blogger, so you can sign up without being a coder or apprentice (twitter.com/_/status/459147503871733760)
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bret http://bret.io/2014/03/23/iwc-irc-logs/
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aaronpk http://bret.io/2014/03/23/iwc-irc-logs/
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aaronpk bret is now rendering replies inline
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aaronpk still on a static site, javascript pulls the comments in from webmention.io and renders client side
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bretolius: I improved my replies and webmention displays, with makes it easier on Jekyl sites (twitter.com/_/status/459148205385859072)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @bretolius: also working on implementing a micropub endpoint for github pages, which will need an external server (twitter.com/_/status/459148410533466113)
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tantek Andy, brand new to all this.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Andy: I'm brand new to all of this. I don't have a personal site yet, but am learning to code. (twitter.com/_/status/459148715002195968)
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tantek has been doing Code Academy stuff and learn
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @marihuertas: I have a ton of tech education resources on twitter (twitter.com/_/status/459148809302732800)
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bret is working on a github pages micropub endpoint
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tantek KevinMarks: has a new thing: fragmentions
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tantek … last week we were chatting in the IRC channel
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tantek … and talking about the problem of webmentions being to the whole page
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tantek … when it would be really nice to link to a paragraph on the page, like Medium
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tantek … and this reminded me of the W3C Annotations event that Tantek and I went to couple of weeks ago
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tantek … where there was this enormous discussion of needing better anchors into pages
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tantek … and I thought wait a minute, we can point to a chunk of words to search for in the page.
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tantek … and JonathanNeal was here and quickly wrote up some javascript to do this.
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tantek … and a Chrome plugin
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tantek … see indiewebcamp.com/fragmention for documentation
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tantek … the way it works is that you link to the page, then ## then series of words separated by + signs
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bret how come you didnt call it w(eb)anchor?
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tantek … like linking to a subsection but by the text
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KartikPrabhu bret: nice!
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tantek … you can then share links
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tantek … complete works of Shakespeare has implemented this
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tantek … there's questions about what happens if the pages change.
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tantek … hoping to keep this simple enough for people to just start using right away
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tantek … and get it standardized in WHATWG/W3C
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tantek Mari: sounds like collaborative publishing
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tantek KevinMarks: W3C Annotations conference was all about annotating parts of documents, and the key part was to link to a piece of text in a page
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tantek … when you typically annotate / comment on a portion, you blockquote part of the page and then comment on it.
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tantek … this is extending that so you can link to the precise part of the page that is the quote
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tantek … then we've got distributed Medium comments
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tantek BenWerd: this would enable having comments on the side of the text
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tantek … I want it!
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (+76) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek … Idno already has fragmention scroll-down support
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tantek … literally because that script from JonathanNeal exists
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tantek Tantek: it's getting some buzz on the Twitters
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tantek KevinMarks: Other interesting thing is that it took off after I cross-posted it to Medium
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tantek BenWerd: I like that Medium emailed me that KevinMarks wrote something. ;)
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tantek KevinMarks: Other thing is that Amber gave her talk on IndieWebCamp at Passion Projects at Medium last Thursday.
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tantek … afterwards we had a discussion with Medium folks
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tantek … saying we like what you're doing and we'd like to plug you into the web more
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tantek … Medium has a nice writing and commenting UI
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tantek … but comments and such don't get exported
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tantek … I was talking to them about them supporting Micropub
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tantek … they see themselves as the place you write
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tantek … Ev wrote a post yesterday or before saying it's a great writing tool
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tantek … I was impressed I could take my blog post and copy paste the HTML and it went across fairly well, just lost my code markup
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal++
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Loqi JonathanNeal has 5 karma
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tantek … They've done a good job of writing a good tool, and micropub would be a good way to have them post to IndieWeb sites.
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tantek Kyle, kylewm.com right now working on a pull request for Bridgy
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tantek if you syndicate a post to Twitter, or Instagram
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tantek it makes it difficult to put a link on those
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tantek … I've figured out a way to do POSSE post discovery
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tantek … from the original post
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tantek … so that you can do backfeed from Bridgy from the silos, without a link from silo POSSE copies back to the original post
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tantek … http://indiewebcamp.com/posse-post-discovery
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tantek … one challenge is that some systems don't have a home page feed of everything
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tantek … e.g. idno is by default just articles
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tantek … though it's user configurables
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tantek Kyle: it's using the microformats2 marked up h-feed from the original site
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tantek … using link rel=feed from the home page
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tantek (welcome emmak!)
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tantek (brief backstory of Bridgy in both locations)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kyle_wm: I'm working on http://indiewebcamp.com/posse-post-discovery to find the original for a POSSE'd post without a link (twitter.com/_/status/459151831374254080)
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aaronpk tantek: we've got something from paul over here
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: I have been working on fragmentions this week - more info at http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html (twitter.com/_/status/459152075541471232)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kyle_wm: I'm working on http://indiewebcamp.com/posse-post-discovery to find the original for a POSSE'd post without a link (twitter.com/_/status/459152152431439872)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: I have been working on fragmentions this week - more info at http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html (twitter.com/_/status/459152157384933378)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: showing off idno implementions of POSSE using brid.gy (twitter.com/_/status/459152347869224960)
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tantek (discussion about keeping things all in one place, vs. spreading across sites - Mari)
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tantek … selectively share some things to some places ...
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tantek … like if write about something in women in technology
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tantek … get a bunch more attention
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tantek … sometimes that means I want to draw the curtain on other areas of my life
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tantek BenWerd I selectively filter
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @marihuertas: I go back and forth between wanting to tie things together and to keep them separate. It's hard (twitter.com/_/status/459152687712698369)
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tantek … some stuff goes to FB, or Twitter etc.
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tantek Mari: I think we're getting there. E.g. G+ has various communities.
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tantek … mechanical design etc.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I find I want to share some things with some groups, but not necessarily filtered by silo (twitter.com/_/status/459152867577040896)
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tantek … but when they first rolled it out, people had hard time finding value in it
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tantek … but hardcore users have adopted G+ communities.
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tantek BenWerd: reminds me of LiveJournal a bit.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: Google+ reminds me of livejournal - it has some tight communities that live on it (twitter.com/_/status/459152986481385473)
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tantek (note taking to you PDX)
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aaronpk paulmunday.net - website has been most about finding a job, but now he has a job offer
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tantek (congrats!)
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aaronpk drop a markdown file in a directory which then becomes a URL
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aaronpk not a big fan of reverse chronological order
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aaronpk wants to sort posts by modified time, not necessarily published date
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kylewm.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+91) "/* Discover POSSE copies via rel-syndication */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: paulmunday.net : would love to hear suggestions/alternates to reverse-chronology
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aaronpk every page on the site has a 'view source' link: http://paulmunday.net/source?page=index
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Paul Munday: I have tool that lets you put a markdown file in a directory which becomes a URL (twitter.com/_/status/459153606315638784)
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aaronpk uses git on the backend for versioning files
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Paul Munday: every page on my site has a view source link http://paulmunday.net/source?page=index (twitter.com/_/status/459153684476489728)
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KevinMarks_ hi jeremy
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tantek welcome jeremyzilar! we're taking notes on the Homebrew Website Club here
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jeremyzilar Hey
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tantek live
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tantek from SFO and PDX
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KevinMarks_ url for alex?
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jeremyzilar Great - will listen in.
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aaronpk alexlinsker.com
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aaronpk current project is https://taxandconversation.com/
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb Paul Munday: I have tool that lets you put a markdown file in a directory which becomes a URL (twitter.com/_/status/459153938030538753)
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aaronpk building a community where each person brings 3 other people, giving each person an address in the tree
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @alexlinsker: I am trying to make a three-level cell based organisation to find peoplel in base 3 (twitter.com/_/status/459154162744578048)
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aaronpk KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 21 karma
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aaronpk what leadership skills do you want people to have at each level
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tantek Emma Kuo - notenoughneon.com
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aaronpk http://psyhigh.biz/welcome/ - has mock functionality of what posting would be liek
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aaronpk community blog collecting stories
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tantek … http://psyhigh.biz/welcome/
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tantek … what about identity and indieweb
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tantek … psychic highschool existed about 10 years ago too
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aaronpk psychic high school existing about 10 years ago as well, gained somewhat of a large following
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aaronpk people post anonymously, people take a character, not yourself
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aaronpk yuo don't necessarily want to tie it to your actual identity, you're playing a character on the blog
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @psyhigh: My site is a story writing one where people tell stories set in the Psychic High School http://psyhigh.com (twitter.com/_/status/459154916934967297)
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aaronpk it's not a nefarious reason for hiding your identity, it's just playful
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benwerd I love this so much
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @psyhigh: You're posting stores for fictional characters in a fictional space, so identity questions are trickier (twitter.com/_/status/459155122116124672)
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KartikPrabhu is very confused about psychic high school
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I love the idea of a fictional identity - your page doesn't need a real name (twitter.com/_/status/459155346163269632)
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kylewm` lol KartikPrabhu
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tantek Benwerd, werd.io, "guy in the green shirt"
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @marihuertas: can you toggle between logins in Psyhigh? So characters can talk to each other? Cool (twitter.com/_/status/459155518419132416)
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bret Its a place for fictional characters to interact
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KartikPrabhu oh! hmm Can I be Prof. X ?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you can be whoever you want!
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KartikPrabhu nice!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: Idno is a multi-user system and I'd love to help you do this. I now know how I'll do my NaNoWriMo this year (twitter.com/_/status/459155699969560576)
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aaronpk "I don't want psychic high school to own the content, I want the authors to be able to keep their writings"
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @psyhigh: everyone can be a storyteller - I want them to own their characters, and spin-offs too (twitter.com/_/status/459155821214310401)
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Loqi gives aaronpk the authors to be able to keep their writings
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KartikPrabhu Loqi! that is opposite!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: twitter lets you create all kinds of identities (twitter.com/_/status/459156159308787712)
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tantek Mari: Twitter stalks you mercilessly
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tantek check out: http://tantek.com/2012/271/b1/why-twitter-spamming-new-updates-emails-every-week
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jeremyzilar loving this site: http://alexlinsker.com/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @marihuertas: twitter stalks you mercilessly to make you use the fake accounts you create (twitter.com/_/status/459156292020752384)
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aaronparecki.com created /pseudonymity (+141) "stub" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+819) "/* Related work */" (view diff)
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@marihuertas At the #indieweb meetup, I mentioned having a list of tech education resources –– here it is! Enjoy. https://twitter.com/marihuertas/tech-education/members (twitter.com/_/status/459156794929999873)
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@benwerd RT @marihuertas: At the #indieweb meetup, I mentioned having a list of tech education resources –– here it is! Enjoy. https://t.co/ukVdoEDr… (twitter.com/_/status/459156923237937152)
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+15) "/* Related work */ fixed typo." (view diff)
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@benwerd Homebrew Website Club, April 23, 2014. #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/459158017397641216/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/459158017397641216)
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tantek does anyone remember where we documented scheduled or future posts
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werd.io uploaded /File:Homebrew-Website-Club-2014-04-23.jpg "Homebrew Website Club, April 23, 2014. Mozilla SF in the foreground, Esri PDX on-screen."
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: Homebrew Website Club, April 23, 2014. #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/459158017397641216/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/459158733403082752)
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KevinMarks_ new emoji suggested https://twitter.com/karengeier/status/459157908035743745/photo/1
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@karengeier this is one of the best things I have seen in a while via @averymonsen https://twitter.com/karengeier/status/459157908035743745/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/459157908035743745)
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werd.io edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (+42) "/* Photos */" (view diff)
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werd.io edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (+6) "/* Photos */" (view diff)
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tantek some documentation of Buffer's scheduling UI for future posts: http://madlemmings.com/2013/07/22/twitter-how-to-schedule-your-tweets/
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: happy bonesaw is great!
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KartikPrabhu says hello! to everyone at the HWC-SF/PDX specially new people...
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KevinMarks_ A man explaining hashtags to a horse is my spirit animal
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: just enabled webmention on my notes. Is it possible for bridgy to retry sending mentions to all the ones that had errors before?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+107) "/* Related work */" (view diff)
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@marihuertas @selltheheart Here's a good explanation of POSSE: http://chloeweil.com/blog/hipster #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459161864903991297)
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@kevinmarks RT @marihuertas: At the #indieweb meetup, I mentioned having a list of tech education resources –– here it is! Enjoy. https://t.co/ukVdoEDr… (twitter.com/_/status/459161977781092352)
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@kevinmarks RT @marihuertas: @selltheheart Here's a good explanation of POSSE: http://chloeweil.com/blog/hipster #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459162077441974272)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: duplication of all responses? http://kylewm.com/share/2014/03/27/1
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JonathanNeal hello
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KartikPrabhu hi! JonathanNeal
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kylewm` KartikPrabhu: haha yeah. i'm running https://bridgy-kwm.appspot.com/ for testing
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kylewm` i paused bridgy, but there were some that got duplicates in the overlap
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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KartikPrabhu aah ok. Btw could you send me a mention from http://kylewm.com/share/2014/04/22/1
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JonathanNeal When tantek wrote “Idno already has fragmention scroll-down support” what did he mean? Is Idno an abbreviation?
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KevinMarks_ idno is benwerd's tool
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tantek JonathanNeal: indiewebcamp.com/idno
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tantek :)
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KartikPrabhu Idno is a microblogging platform that benwerd uses
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benwerd http://idno.co
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kylewm` nice! you got replies working for notes?
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KartikPrabhu also http://idno.co/
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KevinMarks_ http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention##idno
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yup! :)
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benwerd KevinMarks_++
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: of course you beat me to the url
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Loqi KevinMarks has 22 karma
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aaronpk just gave a walkthrough of indieauth+micropub here
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benwerd self-promoter to the end
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KartikPrabhu benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 13 karma
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JonathanNeal Nice, I saw idno.co using fragmentions too.
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benwerd Yeah! Such a cool idea, and easy to implement, which helps ;)
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tantek JonathanNeal: what is xyz in #indiewebcamp = check indiewebcamp.com/xyz :)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: got it... http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/hipster-blanket-term#responses
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KartikPrabhu w00t!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+310) "Alternative proposal" (view diff)
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+140) "/* Discussion */ Reason for the alternative proposal." (view diff)
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@benwerd I really think @t has done a great job building this community. A pleasure every time. #indieweb #hwc (twitter.com/_/status/459169129325293568)
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+139) "/* Discussion */ alternative proposal is not a good idea." (view diff)
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@kyle_wm How many more #indiewebcamp events can I go to before I accidentally buy a macbook air? (twitter.com/_/status/459173742661210112)
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GWG kylewm: Am I going into a den of Macs?
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KartikPrabhu hey! Lenovo+Ubuntu all the way man!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I had a Lenovo. I'm on an Asus right now
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Also a Fedora guy
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kylewm so far I'm usually in the minority, sometimes the singularity :)
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GWG kylewm: What are you working on?
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kylewm of course my budget System76 is about 3x as thick and 2x as hot as everyone else's
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kylewm pouring out cpu heat is not the best when working in tight quarters :)
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KartikPrabhu but is hot! right!
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kylewm running Arch
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GWG kylewm: The budget Asus I'm using is doing the same
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KartikPrabhu ok. any UI/UX suggestions for responses display on notes? ref: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/hipster-blanket-term
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kylewm GWG: as long as it's "a Fedora guy" or "a fedora guy" ;)
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GWG kylewm: Which one is which?
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kylewm oops Fedora the hat is a proper noun isn't it
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kylewm OS good, hat bad
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GWG kylewm: I own a fedora, and can wear it while using Fedora
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kylewm might have to reevaluate, all are welcome, including retro hat wearers
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: my post was a u-reshare-of, planning on differentiating in the UI?
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KartikPrabhu yes. that I should be doing
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KartikPrabhu i have saved it as a reshare
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KartikPrabhu wiat reshare or repost?
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kylewm sorry, oops
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kylewm repost
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks: what do you think about searching alt attributes for text?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: ok cool! as I'm not looking for -as-reshare yet! (which hopefully isn't a thing)
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GWG kylewm: I usually wear a Pub Cap
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kylewm grr I have called them "shares" in my code/UI which confuses me
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KartikPrabhu yeah! have been trying to use mf names for things even in my DB :)
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tantek Homebrew Website Club eats at Blue Front Cafe 1430 Haight st.
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: thoughts on searching alts of images for fragmentions?
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+423) "/* Double-hashes in the wild */ Valid characters as per URL spec and problem with space in fragment" (view diff)
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kylewm I reposts shares, and replys ripostes"
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kylewm s/I/I call
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: I call reposts shares, and replys ripostes"
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sandeep.io edited /fragmention (+54) "/* Double-hashes in the wild */ fixed typo" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu i'd support that. I think all additions to simple fragmentions should be decided by the implementation of an automated generator for readers. It is easy for readers to generated fragmentions to phrase by hand but not so much for other stuff
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal ^^
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KartikPrabhu anyone know the semantics of not having a "label" for an input field?
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JonathanNeal Well, how is the input field identified without the label?
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KartikPrabhu I was planning to have a helpful placeholder
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: use-case webmention form here: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/hipster-blanket-term#responses
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kylewm don't understand what you mean by semantics. isn't it just <input> without <label>
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KartikPrabhu I want to get rid of the "Have you published a response to this? Send me the link"
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KartikPrabhu sematics/accessibility stuff
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KartikPrabhu with placeholder = "link to your response"
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Phrasing is important
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KartikPrabhu GWG: of course trying to get that right oo
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KartikPrabhu see now: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/hipster-blanket-term
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KartikPrabhu GWG: any suggestions for improvements in phrasing are also welcome
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KartikPrabhu same for any critique/feedback for anything on that site :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: what do you think about a non-specialist way to phrase a webmention form prompt?
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KartikPrabhu ref: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/hipster-blanket-term#responses
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tantek "Link to your reply on the web" ?
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KartikPrabhu hmm that is good. I've been trying to put these in the placeholder instead of a label
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tantek That's a decent approach I think
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GWG KartikPrabhu: There is the old school...Comment
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KartikPrabhu GWG: that indicated that they can comment right on my blog which I don't allow
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KartikPrabhu tantek: cool! thanks. appreciate the feedback :)
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tantek Could prob use some user testing
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KartikPrabhu yeah. but everyone who responds knows what a webmention is anyway :)
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KartikPrabhu I need to get new lab rats!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: You may need an explanatory popup
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KartikPrabhu hmm JS will defer for later! My JS chops need work :)
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GWG Oh
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Why are you against direct comments?
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GWG I'm neutral on the issue.
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KartikPrabhu because I don't want to moderate spam and comments like "this is cool!" more here: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/no-comment ;)
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KartikPrabhu my friends can always give feedback personally through chat/IM which I do post manually
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KartikPrabhu !tell adactio: why no u-photo in your h-card here http://adactio.com/about/myself/ Would love to get a little adactio icon for mentions :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I had thoughts of disabling comments and switching to Webmentions and comments on POSSEd comment, but I'd substitute something lower bar
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KartikPrabhu I like the higher effort barrier to post comment personally. But yes it is a personal taste...
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: totally agreed re: comments
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aaronpk I disabled comments completely long ago cause they just got really annoying
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GWG I agree about pointless comments.
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KartikPrabhu yeah. And people can always catch me on Twitter/G+ or email since all of those are public on my about page
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KartikPrabhu I am also having syndication links on posts now. Have to add them
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GWG KartikPrabhu: If I develop reply contexts...
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KartikPrabhu which I haven't either :P
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GWG I can't even do replies to POSSEs
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GWG I haven't even thought about that problem seriously yet.
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GWG The only reply context I have is a Twitter embed function
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KartikPrabhu oh that is better than what I have which is just a link to the replied-to post
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KartikPrabhu GWG: see: http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/disappearing-ny-book :P pretty lame
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KartikPrabhu the entire conversation is one of the more meaningful I've had on Twitter so I really want it on my site
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I overloaded the Link Post Format in Wordpress. There is a field for the link url, and a check on said URL to see if it is a twitter.com link, in which case it brings it in.
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KartikPrabhu nice! I should do that for Twitter/Google+ maybe someone has written a reply-context python code! anyone?
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GWG Wordpress has oembed support
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GWG That is why I only support the sites that it does.
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GWG https://codex.wordpress.org/Embeds
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GWG So, I'll be adding support for these.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: good! always nice to see other's approach/progress :)
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GWG I was saying it earlier. I have a mental roadmap for this
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GWG Some things I'm saving for a 2.0 release I may not get to
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GWG But 1.0 includes a bunch of features I think I can get away with more easily.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Have you seen the metadata links I've been playing with?
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KartikPrabhu nope! link plz
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us/
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GWG Look at the metadata displayed on the test posts
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KartikPrabhu GWG: also what do you think of the webmention form wording now? http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/hipster-blanket-term
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GWG I'd still put a little explanation there
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KartikPrabhu will consider that :) once I manage to parse mentions from Twitter/G+ I should be able to parse any mention. appreciate your all your feedback
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GWG I apprecate yours as well
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KartikPrabhu GWG: like the good use of icons to distinguish post-types
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GWG When my design is done, it is going to my site.
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GWG I have to work on styling videos and a few others.
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KartikPrabhu I just design on my site. As I can get constant feedback about it from friends. And being a non-developer/designer it does not hurt my "reputation" :P
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I did that before, when I had a less ambitious plan
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GWG Once I committed to this...
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KartikPrabhu re: form labels. Turns out labels are read out aloud by screen-readers and the focus is transferred to the attached form. So for going labels might not be best for accessibility reasons
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KartikPrabhu for more on label, placeholder, title: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#the-placeholder-attribute
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KartikPrabhu should rethink his webmention form that looks pretty but probably sounds awful!
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@generic_brian RT @marihuertas: At the #indieweb meetup, I mentioned having a list of tech education resources –– here it is! Enjoy. https://t.co/ukVdoEDr… (twitter.com/_/status/459225989554270210)
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Loqi adactio: KartikPrabhu left you a message 6 hours, 4 minutes ago: why no u-photo in your h-card here http://adactio.com/about/myself/ Would love to get a little adactio icon for mentions :)
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@Arty2 We need more & friendlier articles, for the simple users, on why it matters to own their data, websites, devices. #indieweb #indie @t @aral (twitter.com/_/status/459290833897156608)
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Loqi _: tommorris left you a message 3 weeks, 6 days ago: requiring email confirmation is pretty easy, just a tweak to LocalSettings.php - http://wiki.johnjosephbachir.org/Requiring_Email_Confirmation_to_Edit_in_MediaWiki
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Loqi _: tommorris left you a message 3 weeks, 6 days ago: otherwise mediawiki.org has a list of anti-spam strategies - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Combating_spam
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Loqi _: tommorris left you a message 3 weeks, 6 days ago: I've been lobbying mediawiki.org developers to consider making a No-Spam-by-Default release of MediaWiki with all the sensible anti-spam settings set by default.
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Loqi _: barnabywalters left you a message 1 week, 3 days ago: aaronpk I started http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture but but have sneaky feeling a) not well written and b) the same topics are covered elsewhere — would appreciate a look over :)
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Loqi _: sandeepshetty left you a message on 6/8 at 1:48pm: aaronpk: Interested in implementing likes? (example posts: http://www.sandeep.io/33 and http://www.sandeep.io/34)
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Loqi _: erikmaarten left you a message 1 day, 1 hour ago: found something interesting. When trying to implement webmention, I copied the <link rel...webmention... href...> from your article pages to make sure it'd be right, but it seems your Webmention Client only recognizes that link if the order is <link href... rel...>. Have I gotten it wrong? I guess maybe you send the webmention response in the headers, so that the <link> doesn't matter.
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Loqi _: pfefferle left you a message 2 weeks, 6 days ago: sandeepshetty I take everything back! I am right though!! you use a not <http://example.com> encoded instead &lt;http://example.com&gt
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Loqi _: barnabywalters left you a message on 7/6 at 12:55pm: aaronpk I added markup examples to /comment-presentation and /reply-context — does this adequately explain everything we were talking about earlier? http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Markup http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_markup
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Loqi _: tantek left you a message 3 weeks ago: re: the gender/text-field/Diaspora post - that's an out of date point in the discussion. that plus input from other folks resulted in all the gender-* pages / research on the microformats wiki. the result was sex and gender-identity fields we made happen in vCard4, and thus h-card.
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Loqi _: eschnou left you a message 1 week, 3 days ago: I can't login, indieauth is broken for me due to my site in https, although I do link to https site from twitter/github. Need to debug this with you when online.
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Loqi _: eschnou left you a message 1 week, 3 days ago: I know need to force https on external stuff I embed, although not always possible (e.g. avatar of users having sent a webmention).
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Loqi _: tantek left you a message 3 weeks, 6 days ago: barnabywalters please add your demo/screenshot videos to the new videos about the indieweb page! http://indiewebcamp.com/videos_about_the_indieweb
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Loqi _: barnabywalters left you a message on 8/17 at 2:20pm: shaners, tantek thinking about indieweb video + gap between photos which move and “full” video — where do these things fit in? http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=panorama
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Loqi _: bret left you a message 2 weeks ago: name is still up in the air. part of my schtick was trying to to do everything in Jekyll safe mode, so I think just referring to the project as Jekyll is fine for now (since that software is so flexible). but if you must, we can call it brekyll :p
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Loqi _: bret left you a message 2 weeks, 5 days ago: Interested in meeting up tomorrow for some inidieweb hacking when people are off having fun at Realtime conf?
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Loqi _: ozten left you a message on 10/27 at 2:51pm: franfram: innercircle doesn't syndicate to twitte, the main idea, is something more like a letter. kind of a blog, kind of a shared personal space but it supports webmentions. Needs a lot of work if you build on top of it, it would be fun to jam
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Loqi _: tantek left you a message 6 days, 11 hours ago: barnabywalters noticed you're using Leaflet for displaying a map rectangle (e.g. on checkins http://werd.io/2013/checked-into-ucsf-medical-center-4 or geo posts http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/903/ ) any reason for Leaflet over say Modestmaps? http://maps.stamen.com/#terrain/12/37.7706/-122.3782
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Loqi _: tantek left you a message 3 days ago: caseorganic you may want to update your icons to use apple-touch-icon-precomposed to avoid the ugly white drop shadow over your faces in iOS6 and below.
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Loqi _: bret left you a message 3 weeks, 5 days ago: interesting info on Gnu social. Thanks :)
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Loqi _: bret left you a message 2 weeks, 6 days ago: enjoying your talk :)
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Loqi _: tantek left you a message 2 weeks, 6 days ago: aaronpk I wonder why when you use only one comma Loqi replies with *three* " I'll tell them that when I see them next".
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Loqi _: bret left you a message on 4/12 at 11:23am: just updated the next HWC wiki page, can you look to make sure chicago details look right?
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tommorris wut. Loqi bug. aaronpk?
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@maxbarners Great article explaining the what, why, and how of #Indieweb by @kartik_prabhu. http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/459331154836197377)
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ben_thatmustbeme i think Loqi does have some bug, he has started saying ACTION at the beginning of some of his lines
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Loqi who, me?
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ben_thatmustbeme I want a cookie
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Loqi gives ben_thatmustbeme a cookie
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ben_thatmustbeme oh
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe its just the logs
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps i just never noticed that
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ben_thatmustbeme Good Morning All
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ben_thatmustbeme Or evening or night, as the case may be
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GWG Hello
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ben_thatmustbeme hey GWG
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GWG ow are things, ben_thatmustbeme?
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ben_thatmustbeme not bad, going to try to get some more work on my site in today
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GWG What's on the roadmap?
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ben_thatmustbeme admin pages, which needs a lot of work
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ben_thatmustbeme after that, sending webmentions and displaying notes
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ben_thatmustbeme what I really need is a front end redesign, i am just using the templates from SemPress right now
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ben_thatmustbeme with some modification
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GWG I'm using Wordpress. Been working on my new project for two weeks now
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ben_thatmustbeme i started my setup in Wordpress but decided rather than learn to hack WP, I wanted to learn about more of the indieWeb Tech that already had plugins for me. So I started from scratch
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ben_thatmustbeme more fun for me anyway :D
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GWG Well, after chatting in here, my thoughts turned more from an individual focus to a group focus
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GWG So, I decided to work to lower the bar for people wanting to dip their toe into the indiewebwaters
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ben_thatmustbeme thus doing the wordpress hacking. Cool.
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GWG Theming right now. I have some hacking in the roadmap I'm keeping in my head
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GWG And as I go through, it is shifting, but the tentpoles are still in the same place.
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ben_thatmustbeme really questioning my DB choice of putting note and post as the same structure in the DB
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ben_thatmustbeme just makes things a little funky in the models
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp! only 2 days til IndieWebCampNYC!
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GWG They have the same basic characteristics, only different styling.
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks, think I’ll turn on single-hash searching and let people experiment.
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JonathanNeal good morning, ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme single-hash searching eh?
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't that get sticky for conflicts with the browser?
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@glennjones Stopped coding to help with bee inspection, good chance to try out new mobile UI for #indieweb photo posting https://twitter.com/glennjones/status/459349004347015168/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/459349004347015168)
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KevinMarks Sounds like a plan. Can you tell if there isn't an id? Or will you have to call get element by Id yourself?
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks, ben_thatmustbeme: of course, it must check for an element with a matching ID.
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JonathanNeal document.getElementById is plenty fast
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 12 hours, 32 minutes ago: just enabled webmention on my notes. Is it possible for bridgy to retry sending mentions to all the ones that had errors before?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: congrats! let's see.
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GWG JonathanNeal: I'm not seeing you on the IRC People list
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GWG Good morning, snarfed
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snarfed hi GWG!
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: i can expand the responses section again and you can manually click the retry buttons
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GWG snarfed: I have a Wordpress question for you.
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snarfed shoot!
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GWG snarfed: Had you given any thought to author pages as generated by Wordpress?
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snarfed nope! none
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snarfed sorry
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GWG In my markup, Wordpress is sending back /author/_____ as the author_url.
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GWG Where technically, the whole site is me.
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GWG But not every site is that way
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snarfed ah, right
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GWG I may try to substitute the website URL of the user
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KevinMarks The wiki would be good to test it as it has ids that look like words already
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snarfed GWG: good idea
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GWG Does anyone have an indieweb site with multiple authors anyone knows of?
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, i've thought of that issue before, it definitely gets messy since most people put their info into the footer or sidebar so that its on every page
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: On my list is a widget for Wordpress that generates an h-card from a user account
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GWG Paired with a function that can be embedded into an author template as well
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GWG But either way, the question remains...are all indieweb sites single author?
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ben_thatmustbeme depends on the definition. There have been discussions before on allowing a specific page or sub-page to be allowed or if you have to own your own domain and thus subdomains are fine but folders or /author/1 would not be
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk does the wiki allow you to log in with /author/1 as part of your url. I thought I read that you cut everything after the first /
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ben_thatmustbeme I think it should be, but I believe several implementations assume only 1
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: What about another use case? Blogger X is a posting on blahblah.net, syndicating that back to bloggerx.me, but both sites are marked up
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GWG Or, posting on bloggerx.me, but syndicating to blahblah.net, so blahblah.net has an author page for him
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GWG I wonder how the markup should be for that.
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GWG It is certainly a rel=me situation, but...
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ben_thatmustbeme than bloggerx.me is his canonical home, not blahblah.net/author/bloggerx
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GWG I don't think these standards have gotten into publishing, have they?
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GWG Yes, agreed.
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GWG I'm just wondering about the proper markup
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ben_thatmustbeme what part exactly (i'm no expert on the markup though)
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: IndieAuth doesn't require it, but the wiki might... not sure
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JonathanNeal GWG: for what?
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GWG JonathanNeal: This chat?
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GWG But, I think I just figured out how I want to fix the problem
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JonathanNeal I’m here. The only person I have on ignore is Loki, because I can’t follow conversations when e’s going wild.
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GWG JonathanNeal: IRC People is the list of regulars on the wiki
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GWG JonathanNeal: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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GWG I like to look up people to see their sites
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JonathanNeal I will add myself, thanks.
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JonathanNeal Logged in, but it doesn’t look editable.
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JonathanNeal nvm, button at the top
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jonathantneal.com edited /IRC_People (+58) "Add JonathanNeal" (view diff)
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GWG JonathanNeal: I like the graphics, by the way
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JonathanNeal graphics?
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GWG JonathanNeal: On the JonathanTNeal.com site.
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GWG The Waterloo Daily Courier
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ben_thatmustbeme JonathanNeal: Fraggle Rock! Excellent!
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www.iangreenleaf.com created /User:Www.iangreenleaf.com (+210) "Creating my personal page" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+108) "/* Discover POSSE copies via rel-syndication */" (view diff)
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aaronpk Facebook just announced they acquired Moves! http://moves-app.com/press
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@jkphl ★ Blogged: »"Indie" as in "individuality" — Some critical thoughts about disruptive tendencies on the #IndieWeb« http://jkphl.is/articles/indie-as-in-individuality/ (twitter.com/_/status/459368279102873601)
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JonathanNeal Have I worded this feature correctly? “Ability to match text with single-hash fragments when no matching ID is found”
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@phuedx Would app review submission by webmention stop "1 ★ hated it" reviews? (twitter.com/_/status/459369668021858304)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+88) "/* Working On */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (-161) "/* David Shanske */" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: Re indiewebcamp NYC...what do people usually bring for Day 1?
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@lehawes #indieweb principles are of interest here. You own your identity, interactions and data. You control use of those by others. #p4spchat (twitter.com/_/status/459373083405467648)
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG: An apache helicopter, A copy of the Matrix on laser disc, 2 tickets to the opera, and a wiffle bat
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ben_thatmustbeme give or take a few items
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I was more wondering if I need a computer.
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GWG The second day is hacking day
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rascul ooo apache helichopter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-LDMDpFnB0
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KevinMarks Demoing your current indie site can be part of day 1
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@kyle_wm I got to wondering what the smallest possible IndieWeb-enabled blog generator would look like… Here’s a start in… (http://kylewm.com/article/2014/04/15/1/super-minimal-microblog-experiment) (twitter.com/_/status/459375527455752193)
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kylewm please disregard^
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ben_thatmustbeme rascul: exactly what I was thinking of
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GWG KevinMarks: I'll bring my Nexus 7 then. Takes up less space and is fine for a demo
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kylewm GWG: fwiw, everyone at IWCSF had a laptop
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG: ignore me, I was raised a smart-ass :D good question though. I have until IWC Boston to figure that out
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: The one in Cambridge? If I like the one in NYC, maybe I'll come up. Flying is cheap
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GWG kylewm: But the hacking isn't till day 2. I have to work Sunday afternoon. I might remote in for the morning
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: And I did ignore it
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aaronpk I'll probably try to remote in for Sunday
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kylewm GWG: you'll be fine without one, just wanted to note that everyone did bring theirs :)
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aaronpk possibly part of saturday but not sure yet
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kylewm you might decide to splinter off and hack on something on day 1, no requirement that you attend every session
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ben_thatmustbeme i need to check the train schedule for then, I might be able to put someone up at my place if they don't want to pay for hotel.
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ben_thatmustbeme for the Cambridge one that is
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: DO you live anywhere near Cambridge?
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG: Attleboro MA, I work in Boston. Its a long train ride, (about 40 minutes) and to go to Cambridge it would be a subway from there. So It would def not be close by. but I'm cheap.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I have a brother in Brighton, but he has 5 kids, and thus no room.
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, yeah, that would be a bit crowded.
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kylewm that article on jkphl.is is interesting, but conflates indieweb as a generic term with indiewebcamp, the event. as if people here are saying you can't be indie unless you do things the indiewebcamp way
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: He'd let me stay. I just feel horrible displacing his kids.
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GWG Especially since they are already 2-3 to a room
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aaronpk kylewm: whoa I was literally writing the same thing
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aaronpk "conflates indieweb as a generic term with indiewebcamp"
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kylewm buy me a coke?
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kylewm :)
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aaronpk !give kylewm a coke
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Loqi gives a coke to kylewm
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GWG Which article is this?
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aaronpk http://jkphl.is/articles/indie-as-in-individuality/
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JonathanNeal v0.3.1 http://sandbox.thewikies.com/fragmentions/example.html test test test
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GWG I agree with parts of that article and disagree with others
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aaronpk if only there was some way to comment on specific paragraphs...
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GWG aaronpk: I'm relatively new here, having only been around for about a month
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GWG And after listening to the discussions, reading the wiki, and seeing articles like that, the first project I decided to try was one that would give people the choice to just install something and play with it quickly.
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GWG So, maybe in that part of it, I do agree.
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GWG You look at all the stuff, and it seems overwhelming
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kylewm seems like with the decentralizecamp thing, there was the same misunderstanding? like people wanted to run an event about the indieweb and asked #indiewebcamp and were offended at having someone tell them how to run their camp
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GWG Telling people how to do things seems less...independently minded
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aaronpk yes, although telling people how to run an indiewebcamp seems reasonable
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aaronpk otherwise it's not an indiewebcamp
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GWG aaronpk: I agree with that as well.
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kylewm GWG: I'm relatively new too, I think your goals are right where things are right now. The initial group built some things that're starting to get more attention & look appealing to a wider, less technical, audience
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GWG kylewm: I just see people saying that they feel unwelcome in what appears to be a welcoming community.
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kylewm yes. that is frustrating.
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GWG That is what concerns me.
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GWG I love tech-minded people
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GWG I am one
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kylewm i suppose that is why tantek applies filters
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: that sounds OK (delayed response)
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kylewm JonathanNeal: single # searching looks really nice
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KevinMarks_ are you ignoring a single character?
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KevinMarks_ (seems sensible, just checking it's on purpose)
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KartikPrabhu !snarfed yeah longer "recent responses" would work too :)
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: yeah longer "recent responses" would work too :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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j12t Ann: First Indie Box Meetup. http://bit.ly/1lJoDyx
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@aaronpk @jkphl Thanks for the thoughtful post. It's great to hear this perspective from someone... #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/04/24/1/ (twitter.com/_/status/459388802029461504)
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: maybe that test document needs some more actual ids in it?
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barnabywalters j12t: brilliant, hope it goes well!
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aaronpk so I linked to a bunch of fragmentions on his post
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aaronpk but he doesn't support them yet, so this is an interesting test
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KevinMarks_ I see, heh
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barnabywalters aaronpk: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/04/24/1/indiewebcamp <<< is an excellent, measured response. thanks for writing it
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aaronpk barnabywalters: thanks, but it's a little sad how fast you read it vs how long it took to write
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KevinMarks_ no, that's wonderful!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: isn’t that the hallmark of great writing?
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aaronpk ha ok I'll go with that
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk++
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KevinMarks_ that's the point of writing at all
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Loqi aaronpk has 435 karma
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KartikPrabhu nice response
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aaronpk oh I forgot to get approval from the Board of IndieWeb™ before posting
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j12t barnabywalters: it’s the first meetup, who knows! I haven’t done an event there either, so I don’t know whether we could stream it
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: would be good if the reply context indicated that Joschi's post has more in it
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aaronpk hm yeah interesting
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KevinMarks_ aaronpk: read this https://web.archive.org/web/20070405134015/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2002/12/18/the_right_ones_in_the_right_order
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KartikPrabhu as it stands it seems he's saying somethign provocative and running away, (like Twitter)
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aaronpk oh it picked up the summary
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KevinMarks_ the full version of the bit that I fragmentioned in the first post
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KartikPrabhu yes.. which is great but a "read more" link would be nice :)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: also did you send him a webmention?>
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aaronpk yes
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KartikPrabhu hmm might be moderated which seems good
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KevinMarks_ or might be matching naively and thus not strip the fragmentions?
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KartikPrabhu no. his full article is linked in the reply-context
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KevinMarks_ hi Guest70785 - do "/nick yourname" to make it easier to chat
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: what do you think of using "e-reply-context" to markup embedded reply contexts in an h-entry?
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aaronpk hmm so if I'm displaying something that is explicitly a summary, I need a way to indicate that there's more
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KartikPrabhu yeah that would be nice
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KartikPrabhu like a "read more on title of post"
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: what do you mean by “embedded” reply contexts in an h-entry?
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aaronpk gonna have to add that to comments presentation
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: there's already h-cite for that basically
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: like the ones aaronpk has with texts, and author h-card and unlike the one where I have which is only a link.
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: ah, in that case yes you would use h-cite
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm
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barnabywalters take a look at aaronpk’s markup
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KartikPrabhu I was! maybe I got lost in the tags :)
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barnabywalters and http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Freplies%2F2014%2F04%2F24%2F1%2Findiewebcamp
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aaronpk don't look at the html, just look at the parsed version :)
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barnabywalters might make it a little clearer
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aaronpk my favorite bookmarklet is this: javascript:(function()%7B window.location="http://pin13.net/mf2/?url="+encodeURIComponent(window.location.href)%7D)();
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KartikPrabhu aah ha :) that is on the pin13 site i suppose
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I made my version slightly more complex so the bookmarklet can be used to toggle between parsed and original: javascript:(function(){if(document.location.hostname=='pin13.net'&&document.location.pathname=='/mf2/'){document.location.href=decodeURIComponent(document.location.search.slice(5))}else{%20document.location.href='http://pin13.net/mf2?url='+encodeURIComponent(document.location.href);}}())
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aaronpk so it is!
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aaronpk barnabywalters: whoa nice
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barnabywalters there are similar ones for all the indiewebify.me validators
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barnabywalters super handy
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KartikPrabhu nice ncie..
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aaronpk barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 35 karma
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aaronpk i'm updating the one on pin13
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aaronpk done
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kylewm just catching up. great response, aaronpk
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aaronpk thanks
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@kevinmarks “I’m not sure how much I’ll write on Fusion’s website” —@felixsalmon https://medium.com/p/4dbb1d82eb52 write it there, POSSE it http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/459393902798061568)
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aaronpk seems like people are itching to get off of github https://twitter.com/tpope/status/459391639870779392
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@tpope Setting aside the question of should, I'm increasingly distressed by the fact I *can't* realistically migrate off GitHub. (twitter.com/_/status/459391639870779392)
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aaronpk my favorite reply: https://twitter.com/DPritchett/status/459392668234448897
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@DPritchett @tpope we should kickstart a federated github substitute, call it Diaspora maybe? (twitter.com/_/status/459392668234448897)
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KartikPrabhu lol :P
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kylewm git’s distributed, maybe we need to work on pull requests via webmention
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KartikPrabhu The whole Julie Ann Horvath situation soured a lot of people
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aaronpk since git is already completely decentralized, it would seem entirely possible to build a web frontend that is also decentralized. the trick is pull requests
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yup! my thoughts exactly
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kylewm Julie Ann is throwing bombs today
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aaronpk doesn't the linux kernel team basically send pull requests via email? (an also completely decentralized system)
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aaronpk we should be able to do the same with webmentions and html pretty quick
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Loqi yea
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arcatan also, the issue tracker
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KevinMarks_ Julie Ann is responding to anonymous rumours with on the record rebuttals
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KartikPrabhu oh! where this be?
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kylewm tweetair
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kylewm KevinMarks_++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 23 karma
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kylewm I think that’s really admirable of her, was just saying that might be why people are especially itchy about github this morning
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kylewm LOVE the idea of doing indieweb development on our own domains
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KevinMarks_ Linus explained the difference in approach here (with flaming) https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/17#issuecomment-5654674
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aaronpk oh yeah
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aaronpk i remember that thread
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KartikPrabhu wait did techcrunch withdraw their article already?
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KevinMarks_ it's interesting how email-centric his workflow is though
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KartikPrabhu getting a distributed code workflow working (eh... choice of words) would also show-off the indieweb to a whole new group of devs
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: which article?
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KartikPrabhu i think there was supposed ot be one here: http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/24/horvath-names-names/
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KartikPrabhu man! @nrrdcore is on fire...
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KevinMarks_ it's linked from her tweet https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/459358875213238272
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@nrrrdcore Don't do business with @mojombo, @tpdubs2, @tnm, @timothyclem, or @holman. (twitter.com/_/status/459358875213238272)
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aaronpk good morning tantek!
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barnabywalters I found a Ben to complete the benwerd/benward trio: benword! http://roots.io/author/benword/
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kylewm so… i’m worrying about an unintended consequence of adding posse-post-discovery to bridgy. if people stop including citations on their tweets, bridgy may be able to find the original, but other indieweb platforms won’t (without a lot of extra work)
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kylewm which will sort of make silo comments “better” than indieweb comments :(
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tantek kylewm - why? indieweb comments done right are simply POSSEd as silo comments as well, e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Twitter
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tantek been doing this for a while (with replies to indieweb posts that happen to be POSSEd to Twitter) and it works quite well.
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kylewm thinking about http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/04/25/1/original-post-discovery where if you reply to a tweet, p3k automatically finds the original
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kylewm or the human version, where you can find the original manually to reply to
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kylewm but you’re right, it doesn’t *really* break anything intrinsic, and it’s a tradeoff some might make
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barnabywalters aaronpk: are you hitting the twitter API to get reply contexts? https://github.com/aaronpk/php-mf2-twitter-shim
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tantek kylewm, in the end, we have to provide incentive for POSSE copies to link back to originals
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aaronpk I think link-less posse copies should be a last resort
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tantek agreed
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aaronpk like I'm pretty happy with how mine turned out on Facebook with the "See Original" button
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aaronpk I really didn't like having the aaron.pk URL in the post itself
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aaronpk for some reason it looks uglier on facebook than on twitter
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yes that uses the API
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tantek aaronpk - your "See Original" solution deserves more documentation and publicizing!
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tantek it's so awesome!!!
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ben_thatmustbeme oh wow, aaronpk, I'd def like to do that (when i get to that point)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (-62) "/* Facebook */ move todo to main page on POSSE to Facebook" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+62) "/* Facebook API */ todo moved here from POSSE page" (view diff)
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tantek ah, I see kylewm already added a screenshot of his "See Original" in Facebook POSSE copies: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#See_Original
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aaronpk i should remove all my old screenshots
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Loqi fo sho
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kylewm you can replace my screenshot with one of yours, aaronpk
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kylewm since you were the See Original OG
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aaronparecki.com edited /Facebook (+0) "/* Facebook API */ replace example with a post that has a "See Original" action" (view diff)
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aaronpk I think at this point it's probably safe to recommend using the facebook action with "See Original" text over any other method, yes?
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kylewm it is superior in all ways
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tantek aaronpk - your old screenshots are still valuable in that they teach how we got to the current solution
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tantek leaving breadcrumbs for the path of learning helps new folks reach the same conclusion
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aaronpk true
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KevinMarks_ right. Some screenshots of old ones that included the text 3 times would also be useful
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aaronpk maybe change the header to "Previous Ideas"?
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aaronpk instead of Brainstorming
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kylewm would be nice to include an example with link and picture set in addition to See Original
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kylewm lemme see if i have one
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tantek aaronpk - new section for old brainstorming. And yes, "Previous ideas" or "how we got here" would be useful
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kylewm like https://www.facebook.com/kyle.mahan/posts/10100841685736959
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tantek.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+61) "just a minimal h-card :)" (view diff)
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kylewm thanks tantek :)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+571) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ expand list into subsections with names, spots to encourage dates, citations, screenshots" (view diff)
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tantek np :)
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aaronpk oh no edit conflicts
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tantek oops
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aaronpk let me try again
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (-31) "no automatic POSSE anymore" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+153) "add link to facebook API docs and PHP library" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+90) "add dates and links to my examples" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook () "(-540) /* Brainstorming */ new section for previous attempts" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:aaronparecki-posse-facebook-example.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:aaronparecki-posse-facebook-original-example.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+96) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add screenshots" (view diff)
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aaronpk there we go
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aaronparecki.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+2) "/* Aaron Parecki */ formatting" (view diff)
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@fotomut RT @jeremyzilar: Do you care about independent publishing and ownership of content? Come to @IndieWebCamp NYC this wknd at @nytimes http://… (twitter.com/_/status/459416793027985408)
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kwm-facebook-copy.png "[User:kylewm.com] Facebook POSSE Example"
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kwm-fb-original.png "[[User:kylewm.com]] POSSE to facebook original"
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kylewm.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+248) "/* Kyle Mahan */ added screenshots" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+12) "/* Kyle Mahan */ too big!" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+6) "/* Kyle Mahan */ formatting" (view diff)
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kylewm uploading images to the wiki is tricky
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aaronpk you get used to it
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gRegor` I usually put the [[File:image.png]] in a page first, then click it to go through uploading it.
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aaronpk same
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aaronpk also preview is your friend
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gRegor` Aye
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gRegor` Are there Twitter logo graphics on the wiki? Preferably ones that scale down well? I was going to add one beside my twitter link on my profile page.
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, I'm trying to send you a mention back on the note you asked a question (I finally got around to being able to answer it)
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ben_thatmustbeme you receiving anything on your end?
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: my replies aren’t moderated, so if it worked you’ll see it immediately
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: what’s the URL of your reply?
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ben_thatmustbeme http://ben3/note/2014/4/24/1/_
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ben_thatmustbeme oops
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ben_thatmustbeme no
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ben_thatmustbeme http://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/4/24/1/_
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe, you can get what i have set up for testing on my local machine
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barnabywalters taproot might be getting confused because the h-entry is in an h-feed
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+162) "/* gRegor Morrill */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters btw, the p-title property doesn’t exist :)
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barnabywalters it’s p-name
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ben_thatmustbeme i stole much of this from SemPress and didn't get to figure a lot of it out yet, thanks
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KartikPrabhu just noticed that Joschi Kuphal also linked to my article in the context: "At present, indiewebcamp.com gives me the impression of being the formal home of The IndieWeb, backed by common language and writings that — possibly unintentionally — promote this very concurrence (however readable they may be in fact, by the way)." don't know what to make of it
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barnabywalters the misunderstandings seems to be arising from the assumption that indiewebcamp === indieweb
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barnabywalters (amongst other things, e.g. bad communication)
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KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: I wouldn't worry too much. He's telling us off for outgrouping people
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bnvk THEY ARE DIFFERENT???!?!?!
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barnabywalters bnvk: er, is that intended seriously or sarcastically? :)
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gRegor` I was thinking along the same lines, barnabywalters. I was going to jot down some thoughts on the wiki.
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barnabywalters (judging by punctuation density, I’m guessing sarcastic)
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barnabywalters where the problem is that the indiewebcamp community defined the term “indieweb” (in this context at least), but it is beginning to outgrow us
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barnabywalters which is a good thing
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gRegor` E.g. just because indiewebcamp.com lists certain thresholds to participate doesn't mean if you don't meet those you're not "indieweb", or not an "indieweb ally"
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barnabywalters as KevinMarks says, when other people use your terms, you’ve won at memetics
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bnvk barnabywalters: I was picturing a certain velociraptor thinking image when I said it http://www.quickmeme.com/velociraptor-thinking/?upcoming
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KartikPrabhu What I am confused about is that he seems against "concurrence" which I think means that we have concensus on how our blogs should talk to each other
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KartikPrabhu I don't know how else to do it...
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barnabywalters bnvk: lol ;)
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barnabywalters as far as I can tell, the problem is that “indieweb” is starting to be used as a general term for own-your-data
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barnabywalters however, the focus and constraints of indiewebcamp are not always relevant for other initiatives which want to enable people to own their data
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barnabywalters and when people use the indieweb term, we assume that they want to fit in with the constraints we’ve set up
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barnabywalters when that may not in fact be the case
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KartikPrabhu maybe i'll write a reply over the weekend when this has had more time to stew
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barnabywalters it’s probably futile to try to control the “indieweb” term
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barnabywalters and may even be a bad thing
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bnvk now what about this http://memegenerator.net/instance/48964744 ?
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barnabywalters bnvk: what connotations do the two terms have for you?
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bnvk one is technology, the other is technology :P
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barnabywalters heh
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barnabywalters for me, #indieweb connotes:
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bnvk don't mind me, i'm in a particularly troll-y kind of mood
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barnabywalters * owning your identity on the web via domains
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barnabywalters * publishing content on your domain
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters: i'm just going to keep trying this submit until I figure out whats wrong. Hope that doesn't spam you
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barnabywalters * sites interacting whilst not being a monoculture of ALL SAME UI
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: go for it! I’ll check my logs and see if I can see anything
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barnabywalters bnvk: must be first-day-of-summer symptoms ;)
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barnabywalters whereas #indietech connotes:
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barnabywalters * technology which isn’t controlled by a corporation
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KevinMarks_ this stems form us being a bit grumpy about Aral literally trying to own Indie™
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ben_thatmustbeme well it wasn't the h-feed issue, tried that.
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barnabywalters * where users own their data, but not necessarily anything to do with identity or publishing on the web
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KevinMarks_ which produced the response "well whoa re you to define it?"
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bnvk but in seriousness, for me #indieweb means:
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bnvk * an emerging protocol that allows for decentralized social media like exchanges over the web
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bnvk and #indietech means:
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: well, he’s openly said that he doesn’t want to own Indie, only Indie Phone and indietech
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bnvk * free & open source technology that is user friendly and not controlled by for profit companies
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Link that you're referencing maybe replying to?
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KartikPrabhu http://jkphl.is/articles/indie-as-in-individuality/##promote+this+very+concurrence
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aaronpk I think it's fine if we want to clearly define "indieweb" to be the set of protocols we're using to communicate across all these sites
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aaronpk but "indie" itself can't be owned by anyone of course
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barnabywalters aaronpk: we can define “indieweb” all we want, but we can’t (and IMO shouldn’t) try to control how other people use it
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aaronpk and if "indieweb" *does* then refer to the specific technology and protocols, then we have to stop using it to refer to being independent
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aaronpk it's not about controlling how other people use it, it's about using it consistently ourselves so we don't put people off
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barnabywalters aaronpk: removed from technological concerns, what does “being independant” mean?
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aaronpk in this context, having control of your own identity and tools that you use
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: oops, sorry — I just tried manually sending a webmention for your reply and it worked!
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barnabywalters using this curl command:
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barnabywalters curl http://waterpigs.co.uk/mentions/webmention/ -d source=http://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/4/24/1/_ -d target=http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4VUFr4/
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aaronpk (tip: add -i so you see the headers returned)
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: you should u-in-reply-to to the link to my post so that it shows up as a comment rather than a mention!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: nice tip!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I‘d argue that my connotations of “indieweb” (above) aren’t very much to do with specific technolgies, but are more specific than merely “being independant”
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aaronpk yeah I like your definition just fine
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barnabywalters I’d be interested to know how much other people’s connotations of “indieweb” match up with mine
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, so then the issue is the library i was using to send it perhaps
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tantek barnabywalters: one of the reasons we chose "Indie Web" over the pre-existing terms "Open Web" or "Federated Social Web" is the positive emphasis and focus that "indie" brings with it: *individual* & *independent* brings value above and beyond "open" or "federated" or "social".
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: which library was that?
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barnabywalters tantek: totally agree, it’s an excellent choice
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barnabywalters a fact which is confirmed by all the people now using it
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php
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tantek With our choice of "Indie Web" we put a stake in the ground. It's a deliberate choice of values, principles, and focus. And by corollary, it is also saying that if all you do is *open* or *federated* or *social* - that is *insufficient*. That is not good enough. You, we must do more.
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: hrm, that library should work fine
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ben_thatmustbeme its saying it doesn't find a webmention server, and tries to send via pingback
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barnabywalters oh now that’s weird
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barnabywalters is it perhaps an old version, or not parsing my link element correctly?
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tantek Saying something isn't good enough and asking ourselves and others to do more is asking for work. Proof of work. It is not a barrier, in the same way that a hill is not a barrier. It is a challenge. The same way that a hill is a challenge. We are saying, we must climb this hill. Arguing at its base (i.e. tweeting) about how good the summit could be will not get you anywhere. You must start climbing.
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barnabywalters maybe it’s looking for rel=“webmention” or http://webmention.org/ rather than a space-separated list of values including one of those
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aaronpk i'm pretty sure I added test cases for those
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barnabywalters aaronpk: maybe it’s an older version?
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ben_thatmustbeme oh god, now its trying to send it to every page mentioned anywhere on the page
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tantek Only those who climb will get to experience the summit. However, as we climb we can make foot paths to make it easier for the next climbers. Who can then erect hand rails for the next set of climbers. Who can then pave steps to make it easier for the next set of climbers. And so on.
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ben_thatmustbeme well, thats not exactly what I wanted
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tantek Eventually some climbers will build escalators to the summit, and it will be accessible to everyone.
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rascul too much work, just take a helichopter
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tantek rascul - helicopters are even less accessible.
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rascul helicopters are for lusers, helichopters are the future
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barnabywalters tantek: I totally agree with the proof-of-work approach and have seen its value first-hand
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tantek and yes, there are some with great resources who can hire a helicopter and pilot to take them to the summit. but unlikely they'll survive there. or they'll get bored and go back down to the foothills.
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barnabywalters but if other people understand “indieweb” to mean a different thing, we apparently need to explain “indieweb” better rather than jumping straight to “no that is not indieweb because it doesn’t meet this proof-of-work constraint”
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, at least that time it was successful, just doing way more than I wanted
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: yay!
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Loqi giggles
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tantek with each year we hike further up the hill. each year we make camp, an IndieWebCamp, at a higher elevation, thanks to the efforts during the previous year.
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ben_thatmustbeme well, it didn't find your webmention server still, but it did send the pingback correctly
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: where/how did you get your copy of the webmention library? can you find out what version it is?
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tantek only by hiking up the hill are we able to see how to forge a path further up the hill.
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barnabywalters tantek: I totally get that. the issue as far as I see it is that other people are hiking (maybe sauntering) up a different hill but calling it the same thing
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barnabywalters then being upset when we say “no you are on the wrong hill and you are not very far up *this* hill”
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, from github, git pull
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ben_thatmustbeme Already up-to-date.
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: hrm
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tantek barnabywalters: I wonder about that. Is it a different hill, or a different path up the same hill?
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barnabywalters tantek: well we’ll only know when we’re all at the summit ;)
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barnabywalters (maybe this metaphor runs out at this point)
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barnabywalters also, the separate issue that people are hiking up their hill in the dark where no-one can see what they’re doing
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tantek barnabywalters: I think as long as we're talking *web*, we're likely talking about the same hill.
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters http://pastebin.com/3u7nM3Dg
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tantek it's non-web efforts that are likely different hills
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tantek hiking up a hill in the dark only gets the hikers lost. and if they don't document their paths, no one can re-use them, so they fail to get followers/adopters.
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tantek nonetheless, there is value in documenting different approaches and even starting points to hiking up the hill.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I don’t see a test in https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php/blob/master/tests/TagParserTest.php for rel=“webmention http://webmention.org/"
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aaronpk what!
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aaronpk crap
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barnabywalters and in fact it doesn’t look like https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php/blob/master/src/IndieWeb/MentionClient.php#L92 does do that check
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Loqi lolz
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barnabywalters it only matches for a rel attribute containing *one* of the values
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barnabywalters shut up Loqi
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Loqi :)
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gRegor` This discussion has me preferring the specific "indiewebcamp" term over "indieweb"
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barnabywalters gRegor`: “indiewebcamp” specifically refers to a physical event though
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barnabywalters or, has historically
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tantek barnabywalters: which is good
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barnabywalters tantek: agreed
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tantek specific events are known things
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gRegor` E.g. the proof-of-work concept makes sense to me if we're saying "indiewebcamp." Less so if using "indieweb." Even if IWC did coin the term "indieweb."
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tantek we don't fully understand the hill that is the "indieweb"
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tantek hence our need to establish "camps" on our hike up to the summit
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barnabywalters yes, there’s basically no danger of the “indiewebcamp” term being used by people out of context
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gRegor` Well, as a website, indiewebcamp.com represents more than just an event, or even multiple events.
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barnabywalters gRegor`: that is very true
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gRegor` So I guess that's how I'm using it
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tantek gRegor`: proof-of-work is even more important to a more general term like "indieweb", just as actually getting up and hiking upward is essential to make progress up the (indieweb) hill.
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tantek gRegor`: as a website, indiewebcamp documents what we have learned about the indieweb, by deliberately working on it.
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gRegor` I don't think it's fair, though, for us (as the "indiewebcamp.com community") to specify what proof must be done by others in the general "indieweb"
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tantek we give examples of what proof *could* be done
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tantek but yes, we should be open to many varieties of proof of work
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tantek welcome back benwerd. you may want to read the logs so far today.
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benwerd ruh roh?
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rascul if you see my name in the logs, it's probably safe to skip those lines
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gRegor` Agreed. indiewebcamp.com has specific proof criteria -- for indiewebcamp.com. Is it clear to everyone that those are just for indiewebcamp.com, and not necessarily a broader "indieweb" movement?
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barnabywalters greetings benwerd! sorry to hear idno didn’t get in to the next Knight Foundation stage, I know you’ll do awesome stuff regardless :)
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barnabywalters s/do/keep doing
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: greetings benwerd! sorry to hear idno didn’t get in to the next Knight Foundation stage, I know you’ll keep doing awesome stuff regardless :)
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benwerd barnabywalters: thanks! Definitely some cool stuff in the works. And I'm psyched that Mailpile _did_ make it through.
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tantek benwerd - no it's all good. a very good discussion.
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tantek gRegor`: also the use of indiewebcamp.com was somewhat out of necessity - the .com domain was available. where was indieweb was not.
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benwerd as well as the discovery of Ben Word, who I'm presuming we're going to have to hunt down as some kind of an impostor
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tantek the intent was always to document indieweb in general, but ground those in the realities and real person-to-person interactions of a *camp*
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rascul ooo an imposter hunt!
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tantek benwerd - we don't hunt people here. only bugs. ;)
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benwerd :D
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rascul /j #indiechat for imposter hunting
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benward Who's hunting who now?
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aaronpk i'm just glad benwerd and benward are two completely different colors in my IRC client
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benwerd you know, people with one-vowel-off collisions with one's own username. it's a problem, I hear.
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ben_thatmustbeme woo, notes working and I can send webmentions, admin pages are a mess, but it works for now
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barnabywalters is tempted to start benw*rd.com, which combines posts from all three ;)
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: nice work!
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rascul aaronpk yeah here too
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ben_thatmustbeme and apparently led barnabywalters to find a bug in that library
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benward Maybe some day in the future, when non-ASCII usernames are standard, we can just set up “benwærd” as a catchall for the confused.
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rascul why wait for the future?
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barnabywalters pings benwErd about https://github.com/idno/idno/pull/232
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ben_thatmustbeme well i feel like i had a productive day. I should head home soon though
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: you should end on a high and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#IndieWeb_implementations
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benwerd merges
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benwerd barnabywalters: thanks!
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barnabywalters or rather, add your new ability to the existing documentation
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barnabywalters benwerd: not a problem!
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kylewm so tantek that was a non-trivial clarification, in your view indiewebcamp DOES encompass all that is “indieweb”?
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barnabywalters if you’re interested in feedback from a non-idno developer…
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters: I already am
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ben_thatmustbeme last entry, the list is chronological not alphabetical
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kylewm I need to reread the criticism and aaron’s response with that in mind
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gRegor` I prefer indiewebcamp.com over (hypothetical) indieweb.com
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aaronpk we do have indieweb.org now
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ben_thatmustbeme needs to read second line of peoples responses before responding
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rascul eh
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rascul i have a habit of reading the first few words, maybe lines, and making up what i want it to say, then responding to that
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rascul doesn't usually work so well for me
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gRegor` Because I think it's totally legit that their be "bystanders" in indieweb, like Kuphal's piece said. However, for indiewebcamp.com specifically, the proof-of-work scenarios make sense.
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rascul where is kuphal's piece? i feel that right now i'm little more than a bystander
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gRegor` I'm referencing http://jkphl.is/articles/indie-as-in-individuality/
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rascul reads
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gRegor` their? ugh. there.
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /webmention (+131) "/* IndieWeb implementations */" (view diff)
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gRegor` drinks more coffee
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aaronpk his custom font gets really messed up when I select text
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gRegor` Good work, ben_thatmustbeme!
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rascul aaronpk font seems fine for me here
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /webmention (-1) "/* IndieWeb implementations */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, headed home
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aaronpk https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7025/13996370751_65dd654563_b.jpg
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rascul fragmentions have already spoiled me
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rascul ooo i didn't call it fragmentations this time
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tantek gRegor`: I wonder if we should do explicit outreach to *active* bystanders like jkphl
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tantek like recognize an indieweb citizen of the week or something, their personal site, what they've built and/or gotten working?
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KartikPrabhu I am pretty confused by this controversy. Is the issue "people didn't feel sufficiently welcome" or is it "indieweb does not need proof of work" or is it "anyone can be indieweb"?
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tantek (we) being people here in IRC and active on the wiki of course, a self-selected crowd (by those who choose to show up)
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gRegor` Maybe. I definitely like the idea of positive reinforcement / encouragement rather than focusing on what's "not indieweb" or "not indieweb enough." The latter seems to be what's turning some people off, whether intended or not.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I think the first. The second two are follow-ons.
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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tantek gRegor`: right. even more energy on positive reinforcement than "nots"
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gRegor` I'm heading out. I'll try to jot down some thoughts later.
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tantek cool
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KartikPrabhu i really don't get what the problem is but I'll help out if folks have ideas
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GWG Just caught up on the discussion
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no problem. You're awesome and your blog post about indie web love is awesome.
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KartikPrabhu also. I am mostly more acerbic in my responses than even you tantek. So I feel it is best that I don't reply/aggravate this problem :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: your blog post was an excellent *positive* example. You already have the skills to focus on the positive. Please *do* keep posting such things.
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GWG The problem is that there are perceived barriers to expansion of the community to content-creators who aren't necessarily web developers and even some with web development skills are feeling turned off. Would that be an accurate statement?
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rascul hrm i get the feeling that this kuphal guy doesn't quite grasp what is the indieweb
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Loqi the indieweb is great
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rascul but then again, maybe i don't
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tantek GWG - I'm not sure - that might be an overstatement.
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tantek I'd prefer to address specific complaints/critiques one at a time rather than any kind of generalization.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: thanks. and I will.
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tantek rascul - it's ok, none of us fully understand the "indieweb" yet - we're still climbing the hill. :)
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GWG tantek: I said perceived. Not all barriers are actual. Even perceptions need to be broken down.
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tantek true
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rascul also, this bothers me: 'For my personal understanding, "indie" most importantly implies "individuality" — at least this is what I want the web to be about. '
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rascul he seems to confuse independant with individuality
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Loqi gives rascul the web to be about
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KartikPrabhu GWG: it is true that right now indieweb tools are not as user-friendly as say Twitter. But people here do seem to be working on that
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tantek rascul, individuality is a good thing too. I think we can be inclusive of that.
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rascul sure, but indie has always been short for independant, and that has never implied individuality
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the "not as user-friendly as…" and "why not for everyone" questions are addressed by pointing people to: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations
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rascul doing stuff on your own doesn't mean you're different from evewryone else
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KartikPrabhu in fact to me it is quite amazing how diff. all the people's blogs are over here. Using diff. platforms, UIs designs. There is a lot of individuality. more so that on silos
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tantek that's the best explanation of why we are where we are, and why we focus on what we do focus on, instead of what people might be asking us to focus on.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: right! more so than silos OR monoculture projects!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'm thinking of writing an article....The Dead SImple Guide to the Indieweb
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tantek GWG - why not start by helping with /Getting_Started ?
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tantek if that's not simple enough for you ;)
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rascul the generations is good
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rascul *the generations link is good
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GWG tantek: I meant on my own personal site
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KartikPrabhu GWG: go for it! yes and also add to the wiki as tantek suggested
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tantek the /Getting_Started page *should* be dead simple
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GWG Not in the Wiki SIlo
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KartikPrabhu lol! badoomtssh
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tantek GWG - not a silo. the wiki is a commons: http://indiewebcamp.com/commons
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GWG And yes, I probably would do both.
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KartikPrabhu yup! POSSE to the silo if you will
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GWG tantek: Ooops.
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KartikPrabhu i mean wiki
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tantek GWG - it's an important distinction. And I totally get how any centralized site can seem like a silo at first.
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GWG But, wiki is a different tone than an article. Wiki leads to a professional tone. I want a more casual tone
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GWG I'd likely link to it there
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KartikPrabhu GWG: also add here http://indiewebcamp.com/posts_about_the_indieweb
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Loqi gives GWG a more casual tone
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I haven't written the thing yet
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GWG And I'll likely wait till after I meet people
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KartikPrabhu I know ;) this is more motivation :P
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tantek GWG - it would be GREAT for /Getting_Started to have a more casual tone
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GWG Remember, tantek can correct me in person on the weekend.
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jeremyzilar GWG — your post has been really helpful for me.
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GWG jeremyzilar: Which one?
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tantek which post?
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Loqi [mention] http://silencematters.com/2014/04/24/indiewebcamp-nyc-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://silencematters.com/2014/04/24/indiewebcamp-nyc-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (pingback)
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GWG I wrote a post?
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KartikPrabhu http://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/04/10/ive-joined-indieweb-movement/ this one?
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jeremyzilar Ooops, reading back I see that you are not kartikprabhu — I spoke too soon.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I didn't think it was that inspiring.
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GWG jeremyzilar: Nope, not him
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KartikPrabhu hehe! :P
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jeremyzilar L)
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KartikPrabhu it seems I am kartikprabhu :D
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GWG But, if you want, I wrote a great post on my learning about the inside of toilet tanks years ago that still gets traffic.
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KartikPrabhu so thanks. I am glad it helped :)
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bret kinda wishing I made plans to go to IWC:NY... ill just have t o set asside some serious work time and maybe a bit of remote participation
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rascul KartikPrabhu are you certain that's you?
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GWG I only recently started participating here.
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rascul bret if i had known about it a few weeks before i did, i might been able to get up there
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bret GWG lol!
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KartikPrabhu rascul: I'd be surprised if there was another who also wrote a indieweb post
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KartikPrabhu but crazier things have happened
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rascul KartikPrabhu i wouldn't, i hear there's imposters running around
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KartikPrabhu loads a shotgun! get off my property!!
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tantek GWG, with how nice KartikPrabhu's post turned out on its own rather than the wiki, I look forward to seeing your Simple Guide To The IndieWeb post on your own site as well.
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rascul you can't hunt imposters here though, have to do that in #indiechat
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bret he hurt my papi
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barnabywalters final thought on recent events before I make food: many of us (myself included) have had negative experiences with previous movements/projects/events/etc (in fact indiewebcamp was founded out of frustration with some), which can make us wary of new ones which seems similar, e.g. use similar terminology like “open/federated/decentralised”. This waryness is a healthy thing, *provided* we don’t let it turn into unfriendliness
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barnabywalters I think that was our mistake with the organisers of decentcamp
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rascul it's easy to be, or at least appear to be unfriendly on irc
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barnabywalters rascul: it’s true that text-only mediums are typically an amplifier of negativity
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GWG I got frustrated with federated
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barnabywalters especially if people are going into the conversations with preconceived ideas
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rascul i would say maybe amplifier of perceived negativity
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barnabywalters it’s so easy to project your own tone onto what other people are saying
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: rascul: particularly if they are short like tweets/irc
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bret its also easy to be really nice on irc, soooo....
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barnabywalters rascul: true
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GWG I ran a status.net instance for a bit
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rascul because i've seen often on irc conversations where nobody was trying to be negative, but they were perceived as being negative by the other party, and things escalated into flame wars and whatnot
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bret thats all i can try to do
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barnabywalters GWG: me too! tantek and I used it at the first indiewebcamp UK to demonstrate real-time independant subscriptions
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rascul personally i like flame wars because i don't need to dig in my pocket for my lighter when i want to smoke
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rascul hrm maybe that joke didn't work so well
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aaronpk *crickets*
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rascul the problem i have on irc is that i keep talking well past the point where people rightfully ignore me
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GWG Ah, the UK. I should go back there
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rascul i will go there one day to do stuffs
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rascul i want to see top gear in person
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GWG rascul: I was there for the first time in June.
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GWG I got to see a Premier Inn.
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jeremyzilar For those of you who will be at the Meetup in NYC this weekend, I am going to make a quick presentation about the state of publishing at The New York Times.
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GWG jeremyzilar: I plan on being there
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GWG jeremyzilar: I will continue not being KartikPrabhu though.
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jeremyzilar GWG — did you RSVP?
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GWG I'm on the list.
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rascul GWG i've been to germany and ireland, but those don't really count because i didn't get to leave the airports
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rascul in germany they put us in a building in the back and didn't let us out
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jeremyzilar I guess I am getting tripped up between usernames here, and on the wiki
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KartikPrabhu list of irc people then: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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GWG jeremyzilar: Understood. I need a new profile picture though. My current one is old. I need to shave and take a new one.
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KartikPrabhu alos add yourself to it :)
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GWG rascul: I have been to Ireland a few times. But I work for an Irish company.
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jeremyzilar Got it. Adding now
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rascul btw i have discovered that indieauth works for subdomains, dunno if that was intended or not but i'm happy for it
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KartikPrabhu rascul: oh didn't know that
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rascul for right now, i use crash.rascul.io for playing with stuff before i make rascul.io live, and crash.rascul.io seems to work quite fine for me to login with indieauth
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kartikprabhu.com edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+25) "/* Itching */ done adding mentions to notes" (view diff)
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kylewm w/r/t Getting_Started and other prominent pages, does it make sense to propose major changes to them on their discussion pages, wikipedia-style?
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barnabywalters kylewm: we typically don’t make much use of Talk: pages
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barnabywalters better to either just make the change, discuss it here, or clone the page and make changes there
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GWG barnabywalters: You are in Iceland?
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barnabywalters as I believe bret has done for the homepage in the past
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barnabywalters GWG: I am indeed
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GWG barnabywalters: Interesting
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kylewm thx, I hadn’t thought of the latter, will take that route
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aaronpk people have cloned a page to a path under their user page
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aaronpk so like /User:Aaronparecki.com/the-page
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kylewm ah, great idea!
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kylewm I’d like to play with getting it down to 3-5 steps .. get a domain, publish content, add microformats, POSSE, with some of the other steps organized underneath or made optional
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kylewm + webmentions
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GWG kylewm: I worry that the emphasize on microformats is causing people not to publish content
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GWG For example, KartikPrabhu hasn't posted a new piece of content since March 26th.
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kylewm that’s an interesting perspective
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kylewm http://kartikprabhu.com/notes
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I am a very sporadic blogger, specially wrt articles
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aaronpk for me, microformats was not the thing that discouraged me from publishing
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aaronpk it was that I didn't have an easy enough UI
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Why aren't those on the front page higher up?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: So am I.
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GWG But, it is a forest for the trees concept
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KartikPrabhu For articles I like to write long, detailed ones which take a long time
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GWG That we are focused on the process over the result.
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KartikPrabhu you mean I should put notes on homepage?
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aaronpk once I built a UI that I could use easily enough I started publishing more stuff
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aaronpk I'm back in the same situation with events now, it's too hard to create an event post right now cause I have to edit files by hand. once I build a UI for it it'll be easier, I just hate building UIs for creating events.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: At least the latest something above the fold.
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GWG aaronpk: But what if you never get to that stage?
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GWG What if you build the house, but don't live in it?
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GWG I'm guilty of thissort of thing as well.
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GWG I spend so much time refining...I forget I built the thing to publish on
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KartikPrabhu In any case my sporadic blogging should not be taken as evidence for the complexity of posting on your own site
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kylewm GWG but do you think microformats are the big hurdle there?
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@BarnabyWalters Identified next personal #indieweb block after some false starts: toolkit which makes not only… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4VjNNc/ (twitter.com/_/status/459457419006193665)
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GWG kylewm: Not necessarily. That is why I said perceived earlier
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rascul maybe today i will play with my site design and maybe find something i like
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barnabywalters GWG: I’ve found it happens in phases. I spend a block of time doing heavy development on my site but not publishing much content there, then a month or so of just using it before the issues start to really bug me, then more development
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barnabywalters GWG: perhaps publishing on your site about what you’re learning as you refine it would be a good thing to do?
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 4 hours, 39 minutes ago: yeah longer "recent responses" would work too :)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: done, feel free to click the retry buttons on e.g. https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kartik_prabhu
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KartikPrabhu neato!
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snarfed normally failures are permanent, but i temporarily changed that so they can be retried. i doubt i'll keep it that way, but i'm open to arguments
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aaronpk GWG: that's why I want micropub to be a thing! so I don't have to build all the UIs!
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: let me know when you're done, since i'll probably revert afterward. not urgent though
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KartikPrabhu roger that snarfed
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+150) "/* personal site */ posse replies" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: why did bridgy not find this one: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/447962771083124738 ?
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@kartik_prabhu @dougmckown some users have been using Wordpress with #indieweb plugins. eg: http://dangillmor.com/ (http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/indie-wordpress) (twitter.com/_/status/447962771083124738)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: looking
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tantek GWG - do not worry about what is causing people not to publish content, worry only about what is causing *you* to not publish content, then document that.
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: looks like you signed up for twitter on 4/2, which was a couple weeks after that tweet
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KartikPrabhu aah ok so it only looks back a little bit. that's cool!
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tantek kylewm - definitely try copying the Getting_Started page to a subpage under your User:Kylewm.com page and reworking it as you see fit!
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: bridgy did find a lot of old posts for G+ though. Is it treating G+ and Twitter differently?
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snarfed somewhat. there are a number of differences that counts can differ btw silos
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snarfed quotas/rate limiting, hard caps, etags and last-activity-seen ids, all sorts of stuff
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KartikPrabhu oh ok. Done with the extra responses. Found a lot on G+, none on Twitter since bridgy didn't look that far back. Thanks
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tantek benwerd - when did you start POSSEing notes to Facebook? Do you remember the date? (or can look it up? e.g. your first note that you POSSE copied to FB?)
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benwerd I can look it up - think it was May 30
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tantek aaronpk, beautiful example of a Facebook POSSE copy and the additional functionality and interactions (Twitter @-replies) on your original post! http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#Aaron_Parecki
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tantek benwerd - last year?
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benwerd 2013, yes
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tantek and kylewm - nicely done, you started POSSEing to FB just 2 days before Aaronpk did!
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rascul is there something to catch when i'm mentioned on facebook or twitter or so and grab that and repost it on my site?
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rascul i may not be explaining my thoughts well
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rascul hrm i could maybe dig into the apis to see if something like that exists
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: does bridgy have some code that I can borrow to parse twitter urls as mentions?
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kylewm lol, that’s a weird coincidence. but it looks like aaronpk was POSSEing long before then, just not doing it through the API :)
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snarfed to parse them as mentions?
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tantek rascul - ah, you want to backfeed mentions of you
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rascul oh that sounds like the terms i want
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tantek kylewm - really? example?
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rascul is there some implementation somewhere already?
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: as in if someone uses my webmention form to send a twitter url, it would be cool to convert that to mf2 nad then use my usual parsing
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+5) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ benwerd date, kylewm started 2d before aaronpk!" (view diff)
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tantek rascul - not AFAIK
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kylewm https://www.facebook.com/aaronpk/posts/522710971093321?stream_ref=10
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aaronpk kylewm: no coincidence! remember it was at IWCSF when the custom action idea was suggested!
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snarfed rascul, tantek: sounds like https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/51
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: ahhh. definitely! that's https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial
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tantek.com edited /Facebook () "(-641) /* Facebook API */ link to main POSSE to Facebook page" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: awesome! will look through it. I guess it also does G+ and FB! :)
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rascul snarfed hrm not quite i don't think, but then i'm behind on all these fancy terms
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+0) "/* Facebook API */" (view diff)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: you'd call Twitter.get_activities(activity_id=[tweet id]) and then microformats2.object_to_json() on the result
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KartikPrabhu nice! thanks much!
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rascul probably what i'm looking for is already implemented in facebook/twitter/whatever api
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rascul now that i think more about it
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snarfed rascul: sounds like the difference is, you want when someone @-mentions you, as opposed to posting a link to your site…?
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snarfed s/posting/when they post/
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Loqi snarfed meant to say: rascul: sounds like the difference is, you want when someone @-mentions you, as opposed to when they post a link to your site…?
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rascul umm yes
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rascul or posts on my wall/timeline/whatever
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snarfed cool. yup, it'd be done via the api. the heavy lifting is everything around that - polling regularly, converting to webmention, figuring out where to send it, handling retries, etc
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rascul i will explore more about this in the future
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rascul i'm still on step 1: design my site
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snarfed …all of which bridgy does, so it'd be nice to piggyback. feel free to file an issue if you want! or if you end up trying it yourself, feel free to reuse code, ping with q's, etc
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snarfed heh true!
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rascul i had my design nearing completion until i decided it was stupid and i don't like it
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kylewm aaronpk: we both listed our “first posse to facebook” as a couple weeks before IWCSF
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rascul i felt like i was trying to do new things to old design methods and it wasn't turning out the way i wanted
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rascul this whole web site design thing might be easier if i were a web designer
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kbs rascul: indieauth works pretty much from any domain/url (including a silo itself). believe the wiki is also quite happy with both domains and urls - it just changes what your username appears to be...
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kbs has spent more time with indieauth and rel=me than was wise :)
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werd.io uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:idno-facebook-posse.png]]""
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kylewm rascul: design is SO HARD
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kylewm sympathizes
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werd.io edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+125) "/* Ben Werdmuller */ Corrected date & screenshot" (view diff)
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rascul kbs ahh so i can use, for example, my facebook profile url if it has the proper rel="me" stuff?
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kbs rascul: yep. not facebook (because it doesn't expose rel=me links) but g+ or github - you can self-link and login that way if you wanted
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rascul kylewm yeah it is :( the coding part of it is easy peasy for me but making it look interesting isn't
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kbs ie - g+ rel=me -> g+ -- login
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aaronpk that works? lol
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rascul kbs that's pretty nifty
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kbs yes - that was the login I thought I sent you a while back :)
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aaronpk ohhh didn't realize it was linking to itself
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rascul maybe one day indieauth will be everywhere
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rascul i have already decided to implement indieauth in every web site i make in the future that has login type stuff
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aaronpk yay!
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Loqi yay!
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aaronpk me too
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rascul and... maybe non web sites also? hrm
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tantek.com edited /User:Jeena.net (+248) "a bit of h-card markup" (view diff)
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aaronpk that was the real reason for it. i'm lazy and don't want to write login code all the time
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rascul persona is easy peasy with flask
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rascul maybe i'll try and make indieauth as easy peasy
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rascul maybe
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rascul i often get half way through something, get bored, and leave it
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: does running activity-streams require the google appengine?
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KartikPrabhu I'd like to avoid installing that behemoth if i can
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: it shouldn't
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snarfed at least, for using it just as a lib
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KartikPrabhu ok will test it tonight and report...
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rascul what is this activity-streams ?
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kylewm rascul: re flask/indieauth, https://github.com/kylewm/red-wind/blob/master/redwind/views.py#L424
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snarfed cool. i just got rid of the final dep recently, so i'll be ready to help
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rascul damnit somebody always gets to my good ideas before i do
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KartikPrabhu rascul: story of my life
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snarfed rascul: abbreviation for a library i wrote that uses the fb, twitter, g+, and instagram APIs, fetches data, and converts to a common format (ActivityStreams)
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rascul kylewm now make a flask extension for it!
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial
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snarfed (bridgy uses it)
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kylewm flask extension is a fun idea, something I haven’t messed with before
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kylewm oh and yeah I wasn’t trying to steal your thunder, just say, here’s what I wrote if you want to generalize it :)
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rascul snarfed oh this activity streams is good i like it
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snarfed rascul: thanks!
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rascul kylewm i also have not made flask extension as of yet
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rascul lets race to see who does it first!
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rascul no, lets not actually
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kylewm haha, I have a feeling it would be a race to neither of us doing it
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rascul kylewm you know of flask blueprints?
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kylewm only vaguely
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rascul they nifty you can use them to split up all your routes to different files so you don't have one huge bloated views.py
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+627) "/* Facebook API */ incorporate a bit from the Facebook page, add Jeena as indieweb example" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd, any plans to add the nifty "See Original" link in idno Facebook POSSE copies? http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#See_Original
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benwerd yes
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benwerd definitely, categorically want to do this
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aaronpk should be super quick
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benwerd it will be, yeah - just haven't quite managed to get to it yet :)
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/11272807
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aaronpk that's from my site
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tantek.com edited /comment (+343) "/* POSSE a comment */ add indieweb example and bolden subsection, link to posse-post-discovery, start distinguishing comment vs reply language" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+2) "/* POSSE Replies to Twitter */ update link - how to posse a reply" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comment (+73) "/* POSSE a reply */ link to implementation citaiton" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /multiple-reply (+132) "/* Tantek */ note date of first multi-reply post vs. first got displaying them working" (view diff)
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@benwerd Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb projects? (twitter.com/_/status/459476458990489601)
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aaronpk wow very cool
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@t @Arty2 @aral agreed. Helping #indie generations: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations Nice #indieweb article: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (ttk.me t4Vj1) (twitter.com/_/status/459478355080146944)
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KartikPrabhu boo! some encoding trouble with tantek's name: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog#responses last one
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KartikPrabhu will look into ti
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@Arty2 RT @t: @Arty2 @aral agreed. Helping #indie generations: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations Nice #indieweb article: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (ttk.me t4Vj1) (twitter.com/_/status/459479720405774336)
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@stef RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459479892158349313)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/459478355080146944/18186530 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/459478355080146944/459479720405774336 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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