#indiewebcamp 2014-04-23

2014-04-23 UTC
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bear.im edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+280) "adding self to guest list" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu man! I should really fix some factual (and diagrammatic) errors in that article!
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jeremyzilar Nice to see people signing up for IndieWebCamp NYC http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC
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GWG jeremyzilar: Looking forward to it
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bear apologizes for breaking ben's annotations/rsvp
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benwerd confirms that bear did, in fact, mean him
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benwerd huh
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bear my post had two h-url items
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bear so the link on your side had it doubled
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bear fixing it on my side caused a new entry
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benwerd aha! thanks - this is a bug at my end. I'll fix this for next time.
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bear also - not sure what your using for the icon image
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benwerd whatever it is, it's blank, and it shouldn't have bothered to write an img tag
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benwerd problems all round
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benwerd thanks again
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benwerd I'll make this more resilient!
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bear :) usage == bugs (at least that's what i've learned to say)
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bear i'm curious how my item is different from t's - is mine a generic web mention and his some micro event thingy?
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@jkphl @benwerd [should've been "#indieweb" of course ;)] (twitter.com/_/status/458772470565072896)
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tantek bear - that's awesome that you can make it to IndieWebCampNYC!
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+0) "/* Capacity */ counts" (view diff)
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@zloozshop Dapatkan Diskon 25% untuk pembelian paket web hosting atau pembuatan toko online di http://www.indieweb.biz dengan belanja T-shirt min 150rb (twitter.com/_/status/458778203054931968)
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tantek !spammer zloozshop
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Loqi Got it! There are now 11 spammers blacklisted
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@erinjo @jkphl For what it's worth, I agree, and I hope you don't stop pursuing your own #indieweb projects. (twitter.com/_/status/458781860395380737)
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bear now to figure out what hotel to stay at
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GWG How do I get into this event?
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bear it's an open hack type event - so if you have an indieweb created site, add yourself to the list
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bear if you wish to create one then IIRC you can add yourself as an "apprentice" or guest
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GWG bear: I thought because it is at the Times building, you had to be on a list to get in
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GWG I'm on it already
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tantek GWG - the list will be taken from the wiki
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GWG tantek: Good
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GWG Looking forward to meeting you all
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bear ah - I never worry about that - it will get figured out i'm sure
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GWG I can only come on Saturday. I work Sunday afternoon
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tantek GWG - go ahead and note that in your RSVP
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tantek that's no problem
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tantek will be great to have you Saturday
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GWG tantek: Is there remote for Sunday morning?
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tantek We'll try to setup a Google Hangout
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tantek for both days
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GWG tantek: I can't get to/from Manhattan, but I don't start work till later
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GWG I'l discuss it there
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GWG I've been relaxing and fiddling with that test theme site of mine
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GWG I may have made it worse.
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@paullindquist @VSChawathe @AlainCouthures @indiewebcamp Sounds like Google is going to put back parts of the api they took out. Until they go total DOM4? (twitter.com/_/status/458787557325959168)
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tantek really confused by that thread
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KartikPrabhu too
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kylewm whoa. what's the opposite of a silo quit? Check out @raganwald's Tweet: https://twitter.com/raganwald/status/458604929532592128
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Loqi [@raganwald] I am perfectly serious: I no longer write or host posts about diversity, culture, or equality.
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kylewm Twitter app added obnoxious "check out this tweet"
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GWG Anyone here?
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tantek maybe :)
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GWG Still trying to figure out syndication links.
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GWG I'm driving myself crazy slowly
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tantek GWG - sorry to hear that. anything I can help with?
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GWG What do you call them?
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tantek POSSE copies?
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tantek links to them?
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GWG Yes
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GWG I'm not expecting a lay person to know POSSE
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tantek original post ---- rel=syndication hyperlink ---> POSSE copy
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tantek nor should any lay person have to know about POSSE
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GWG I have that.
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GWG I'm trying to figure out what it should look like on the screen
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tantek POSSE copy ---- permashortlink ---> original post
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GWG This is what I have now
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us/2014/04/19/twitter-test/
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tantek that's slick!
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tantek there's some documentation of rel syndication links somewhere
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tantek there's this: http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication#IndieWeb_examples
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GWG I've made some progress.
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GWG But while I get the concepts, I'm still trying to figure things out
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tantek.com created /footers (+35) "redir for now" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: The question now is what I'm missing that an indieweb site needs
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tantek a-ha - found it!
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/posts-elsewhere
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tantek everyone's using somewhat different UI / wording
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tantek which is fine
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tantek GWG - what an indieweb site "needs" is unbounded ;)
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tantek.com edited /posts-elsewhere (-25) "/* See Also */ link to local rel-syndication" (view diff)
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GWG You see how I'm driving myself crazy slowly.
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GWG I'll be fine eventually.
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tantek.com edited /rel-syndication (+101) "/* IndieWeb examples */ see more thorough exploration" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rel-syndication (+22) "/* See Also */ posts-elsewhere" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /syndication (+22) "/* See Also */ posts-elsewhere" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: You've been to these indiewebcamps before right?
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tantek GWG - yes :)
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tantek GWG, here's a guide on "what to implement next on your indiewebsite" http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
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GWG tantek: How would you describe them to a newcomer such as myself?
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JonathanNeal Might this help with fragmentions? http://www.w3.org/2014/04/annotation/submissions/Microsoft_Position_Paper_on_Annotations.pdf
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JonathanNeal ^ ping KevinMarks, KartikPrabhu
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kylewm GWG: just went to my first indiewebcamp last month. it's roughly one day of discussion ... broken into 45 minute chunks, organized around topics that people suggest that morning
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kylewm and one day of implementation, where you can show off what you worked on at the end
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GWG I'll be missing the second day
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kylewm that'll be fine i think
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GWG I'm looking at your site.
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kylewm what do you think?
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GWG The stars indicate like/favorite type actions?
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kylewm yeah, originally was using open-thumbs-up from fontawesome, but it looks too just exactly like the facebook thumbs up
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GWG Very snappy.
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GWG As I keep saying, I've been obsessing about design lately.
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kylewm thanks! although i think i unconsciously ripped it off from p3k
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kylewm oh yeah :) seems you've gone through a lot of iterations
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kylewm looking very nice! tiny nitpick that it has a horizontal scrollbar on my laptop screen
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GWG I'm working on it
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GWG I've been looking at a lot of different sites
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GWG Getting a lot of feedback
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kylewm so here's a design question for you, is there a “right” way to do the margin for <p> 's?
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GWG Do you want an old school indent?
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kylewm nah I'm fretting over top/bottom margin. Ideally I think I want them to have space between each other but not
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kylewm to the things around them
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kylewm like http://kylewm.com/note/2014/04/17/1
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kylewm I don't want that space after the note content
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GWG I'd add more to the bottom margin
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kylewm more?!
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kylewm haha, I want less
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: what you are looking for is the selector "p+p"
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KartikPrabhu meaning "p following a p"
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: is that the normal way to do things? I had that in there before but it seemed kludgy
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KartikPrabhu it is a selector that does exactly what you want
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kylewm absolutely, but sometimes when I want something that seems difficult to accomplishment it means i'm doing something else wrong :)
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kylewm accomplish*
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KartikPrabhu you caould also do p:last-of-type {margin-bottom:0}
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kylewm fancy!
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kylewm thanks KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu :)
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kylewm the normal metric (kludge -> something is wrong upstream) might not apply to CSS
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KartikPrabhu no it sort of does.
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KartikPrabhu I usually think of CSS rules in words in my head and then sue the ones that are closest
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KartikPrabhu so do you want "both margins on all paragraphs except last one" or "margins on top of all paragraphs" or "margins on all paragrpahs next o another"
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KartikPrabhu er.. too many typos to fix :P
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GWG You want less? Interesting.
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kylewm I think the reality is I don't know what I want, or what I want isn't consistent
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kylewm like I want a margin between a <p> and an <img>, but I don't want a <p> wrapping post content to add margins to the post body
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Loqi gives kylewm a margin between a
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kylewm lol
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah that does sound like complicated rules
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KartikPrabhu latest progress on get fragmention: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html
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KartikPrabhu don't know why it fails on mobile :(
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kylewm yeah see I suspect that means it's an html problem, not a css problem
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KartikPrabhu don't write HTML based on how it should look. If you think something is a paragraph then it is a <p> and so on
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: a good fail for multiple instances is http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##was+still
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JonathanNeal look at the beginning of the paragraph directly beneath the highlighted paragraph.
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KartikPrabhu yeah. the selection code is mostly what you have
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KartikPrabhu hopefully no one really wants to link to "was still" :P
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kylewm JonathanNeal: out of curiosity, why does that matter? that's a super common phrase
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kylewm demo looks cool and I'm amused you chose a story with a prominent Gregor
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: as I see it, it would be good to let the user know that they are selecting something ambiguous
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JonathanNeal kylewm: why should commonality matter to a person creating a link? It was the in-order second and third words of the paragraph I wanted.
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KartikPrabhu ha! yeah... I seem to be making demo choices with hidden indieweb folks as characters :P
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JonathanNeal kylewm: and then, imagine poetry.
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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JonathanNeal It’s an issue I want to see us resolve.
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kylewm (oh yeah I forgot I pointed out a name thing in another one of your screencaps, sorry that's a little obnoxious of me ;) )
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JonathanNeal The last person to solve this with any luck used the Levenshtein calculation. I hope we can find something much more layman.
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KartikPrabhu looks that up
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JonathanNeal https://github.com/NYTimes/Emphasis
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KartikPrabhu eh... too complicated
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kylewm that's interesting... to me the tradeoff for simplicity is worth the rare case of duplicate meaningful sentences
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KartikPrabhu it is nice and fancy but I'd rather give an ambiguous but readable link
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JonathanNeal agrees
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KartikPrabhu that's why I want to get this in the wild. See if people complain...
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KartikPrabhu maybe I'll write a post about fragmentions with lots of multiple important phrases
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JonathanNeal ##was+stil#2, ##was+still:2 #2##was-still, I dunno
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kylewm I really like the idea of a client side warning that "hey that link doesn't link to what you think it links to"
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kylewm "you keep using that link, I don't think it links where you think it links"
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JonathanNeal appreciates that reference :)
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kylewm so poetry is a weird case, doesn't it often have like line numbers/stanza numbers?
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KartikPrabhu yes. but we'd like to avoid those. you could use those for prose too. paragraph numbers
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JonathanNeal #was+still++2, #2#was+still, #was+still(2), ...
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KartikPrabhu all valid suggestions... we should really just see if a lot of folks want to do this...
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JonathanNeal ^ the 1st looks to take advantage of fragmentions never containing two spaces, the 2nd looks to take advantage of space between the double hashes, the third is just lazy.
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KartikPrabhu how about ##was+stll*2
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KartikPrabhu s/stil/still
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KartikPrabhu Loqi?
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kylewm I killed him with markup
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KartikPrabhu you killed Loqi! You bas$%#$!
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: also valid, I like the double space suggestion since it takes advantage of our not respecting double spaces.
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KartikPrabhu true! you mind adding these to the wiki as brainstorming?
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kylewm Gotta use a better example though, ##was+still doesn't really illustrate the problem
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kylewm maybe you need a really long document like a play
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kylewm (I mean it's fine for this discussion, but KevinMarks will not be convinced!)
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kylewm heading to bed, g'night
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: night!
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KartikPrabhu maybe use KevinMarks' poem example
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KartikPrabhu tantek: whata re your thoughts on fragmentions for multiple instances of a phrase?
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bret !tell snarfed curious why this isnt back feeding from bridgy? did I do something wrong? https://twitter.com/bretolius/status/458810965077655552
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed bret: looking
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Loqi snarfed: bret left you a message 33 seconds ago: curious why this isnt back feeding from bridgy? did I do something wrong? https://twitter.com/bretolius/status/458810965077655552
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snarfed interesting, it didn't find the PSC: https://www.brid.gy/twitter/bretolius
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snarfed oh, it's because of the pic.twitter.com link :/
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snarfed PSCs are only supported at the very end, to try to prevent false positives
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snarfed i'd happily accept a PR that loosens that
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: care to try something out?
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KartikPrabhu ymm sure
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JonathanNeal https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/blob/master/fragmention.js
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KartikPrabhu with multiple instances?
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JonathanNeal backwards compatible, but yes, supports multiple instances.
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JonathanNeal if you do try it out, http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##was+still will work, but http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##was+still++2 should find the second instance, or rather http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##was+still++-1 will find the last instance.
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KartikPrabhu confirmed on local will update
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JonathanNeal nice, looks good.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: it seems ++1 finds the second one and ++2 finds the third etc...
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JonathanNeal Yea, it’s plus 1.
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JonathanNeal search+term++difference
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JonathanNeal if you’re looking for the first instance of something, you shouldn’t need to specify any difference, since it would otherwise be +0
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KartikPrabhu also, is it the ++number instance of the word or the closest element?
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bret snarfed hrmm
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: good point, it’s the instance of the element containing the word.
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JonathanNeal instance of the unique element containing the word
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KartikPrabhu yeah... ok that's what I figured from playing around :)
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bret snarfed where do you recomend making such a change in the source?
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JonathanNeal Yea, I could make it go by literal times the word appears, that would probably be what people are expecting, right?
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snarfed bret: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/source.py#L372
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bret snarfed rad, bookmarked. I will try to wrap my head around it
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snarfed great! feel free to ping if you have any q's
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snarfed (ideally you'd also add or update a test in https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/source_test.py )
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bret ill probrably need help with that, still super noobish with python
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snarfed np!
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snarfed dev setup instructions should be pretty up to date: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/#development
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bret first i gotta figure out why webmention.js isnt working on chrome
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bret bet time though
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bret night!
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bret bed*
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: re expectations: not sure. Are people expecting the phrase to be highlighted?
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JonathanNeal shrugs
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KartikPrabhu again wild test+feedback for this question
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alexlinsker.com edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (+47) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: I will read through the MS annotations before bed and let you know
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alexlinsker.com edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (-7) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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alexlinsker.com created /User:Alexlinsker.com (+313) "Created page with "Alex -- Alex Linsker Collective Agency's Community Organizer / Proprietor (503) 517-6900 http://collectiveagency.co Tax and Conversation's Statewide Community Organizer ..."" (view diff)
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alexlinsker.com edited /User:Alexlinsker.com (+8) (view diff)
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KevinMarks I still don't hear a real world use case for ”i want to link to the nth instance of a short phrase" as opposed to a longer unambiguous one
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kartikprabhu.com edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+136) "/* Itching */ fuzzy updates" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: agreed that suggesting that users pick a longer selection is better. But would be good to throw out and see what people think
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kartikprabhu.com edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+94) "/* Itching */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks how does that msft paper relate?
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KartikPrabhu It deals with some annotations business, haven't read yet.
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KartikPrabhu should read and sleep
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@AlainCouthures @paullindquist @VSChawathe @indiewebcamp Yes, Google will go total DOM4 sooner than later. Are they testing users' reaction? (twitter.com/_/status/458866258772258816)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: msft paper talks about new ARIA roles to represent annotations UI. Might be worth considering if someone implements annotations
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tantek KartikPrabhu: KevinMarks convinced me that linking to nth instance is more fragile than helpful
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tantek I think it provides artificial confidence of precision
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tantek that is - some implication of guarantee of nthness being the same
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tantek whereas it's highly likely to change
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KartikPrabhu sees the point!
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tantek simpler failure modes are more user friendly
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tantek i.e. something goes wrong. user thinks why did this go wrong? user figures out oh, this is so simply predictable (text is now missing) that I know what went wrong!
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tantek the more complex something is, the more difficult it is for users to predict and understand why something failed, the less of a chance they have of correcting the error
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tantek that's my attempt to expand upon KevinMarks's reasoning. not trying to put words in his mouth but rather provide additional reasoning.
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KartikPrabhu hmm true! I see what you mean...
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@benpbarnett Love your indieweb blog. http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/458869627905642496)
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KevinMarks also, it's an odd thing to express. the nyt changing their model from index based to content based supports this
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (-3) "fix headings" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+69) "/* indieweb implementations */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks new post, "Fragmentions for Poets" - if you like it I'll POSSE to medium http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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rascul ooo wiki has fragmentions
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rascul imposters? http://www.indieweb.co.nz/
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rascul .camp gtld is open? gandi selling indieweb.camp for $32.44
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v0 I wonder who will snatch up indie.web
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v0 I hope it's not some faceless start-up selling digital subscriptions to the latest cloud-based ultra-service.
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barnabywalters https://domai.nr/indiewebcamp/with/indieweb.builders
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barnabywalters indieweb.construction
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barnabywalters indieweb.guru
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barnabywalters indieweb.management
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barnabywalters indieweb.email
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barnabywalters jeez
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rascul indieweb.party? :)
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barnabywalters aw crap google.glass is taken
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barnabywalters haha there’s a .guitars gtld
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barnabywalters I wonder if I could persuade them to add a .gurdy or .hurdygurdy
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rascul do it
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rascul they got a process and stuff for registering new gtld
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barnabywalters IIRC it involves a large sum of lubrication
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rascul that's a definite possibility
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rascul i'm not inclined to find out
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rascul goes away now
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@fdevillamil UU: a private paste, with Client-side AES encryption. File uploads / Syntax highlighting. #indieweb #selfdogfood https://github.com/octplane/uu.js/ (twitter.com/_/status/458954295980089344)
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gRegor` Morning, indieweb
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barnabywalters good morning gRegor`
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gRegor` How are things across the pond?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: actually good weather right now — it’s almost summer!
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barnabywalters and by summer I mean “warm winter”
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gRegor` :)
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barnabywalters what’s it like where you are?
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gRegor` We're in warm winter currently, too. Had some 60 degree days, but it was 40 yesterday. Easing into spring
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ben_thatmustbeme morning all
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gRegor` Hey ben
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ben_thatmustbeme you didn't respond in #indiechat, but here you do :P
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gRegor` Look again
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ben_thatmustbeme as tantek learned yesterday, don't forget the emoticons
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gRegor` Forgot it was open
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ben_thatmustbeme the weather here is rainy and dark
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/jayzalowitz-ps-you-should-come-to-homebrew-website-club-at linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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kbs someone here unfortunate enough to write java-appengine and android and mac? :-)
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kbs well, write those two types of apps on a mac anyway
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snarfed kbs: maybe!
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kbs android doesn't like > java1.6, appengine doesn't like < java1.7 , and oracle doesn't like creating java 1.7 on < macos10.6.8
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kbs between all those constraints, I'm pretty well screwed :)
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snarfed oh man, boo
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kbs I thought you were mostly working on the python bits at the mothership, is that not the case?
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snarfed i worked on mostly the platform itself
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snarfed the language parts are pretty narrow
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snarfed but as a user i do mostly python, yes
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snarfed hmm though, i have java 1.7 and i build android apps
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kbs probably source-compated down maybe. I guess my real issue is macos 10.6.8
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snarfed yeah i was about to say the samething
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snarfed that's pretty old :P
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kbs well, time to xar the 1.7 dmg file and hope for some luck
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kbs as I don't think I'm going to be able to afford getting a new laptop just for appengine :)
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snarfed hah, true :/
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kbs (btw - forgot to thank you for the old but gold 2008 talk on datastore under the covers - awesome talk, extremely helpful)
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kylewm kbs: I'm confused, should be pretty trivial to write java 1.7 code that is backward compatible with 1.6, not many new features
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snarfed kbs: glad you liked it!
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snarfed definitely all still applies
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kbs kylewm: yea - my problem is mostly running macos 10.6.8 - oracle doesn't provide a jdk that I can install
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kbs snarfed: yep :) I think I've used all the tricks you delivered in my two-bit apps
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kylewm i misread your < sign earlier :)
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kbs kylewm: ah, sorry - my frustration mostly :) realizing I can't actually update any of my semi-running-by-itself appengine apps until I go through this process. ah well
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kylewm hey snarfed: about the bridgy PR, sorry if i'm beating a dead horse, but is there a case where in the future we might discover syndicated posts for a user that doesn't have a Source? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/pull/130#discussion_r11834978
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kylewm still trying to work out whether SyndicatedPost needs a key, source property, or ancestor
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snarfed kylewm: yeah, understood
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snarfed the main question is whether we need to guarantee uniqueness
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snarfed e.g. if we have two SyndicatedPosts with the same values, is that ok? does anything break? (e.g. i think query(…).get() might throw an exception, if we need that)
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snarfed or what if we end up with two that differ on just one of the two values?
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kylewm oh, if .get() throws an exception, I need to fix that anyway
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snarfed the way it's structured right now, it should only let one poll task per source run at a time, so if we only create SyndicatedPosts for that source during that task, we can probably get away without a tx
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kylewm since more than one post can have the same original
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snarfed not sure about get()
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kylewm but duplicates shouldn't hurt anything, other than taking up unnecessary space
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snarfed well, overlapping ones might. if we discover twice due to a race condition, and the post adds a rel-syndication link between the two
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snarfed but then later we use the old one
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kylewm oh, for updating an existing post?
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snarfed arguably the same case as if we just didn't do the second discovery though. more of a consistency problem i guess, if we sometimes get one and sometimes the other
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GWG snarfed: I have a question for you
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snarfed kylewm: more like if two separate tasks run posse post discovery against the same source at the same time
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snarfed GWG: shoot
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GWG snarfed: Bridgy, I remember seeing some discussion about post discovery.
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kylewm I would be okay with only storing rel=syndication links for the current Source. so we'd miss syndicated instagram posts while backfeeding the user's twitter replies
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GWG This is what you guys were talking about on and off.
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GWG What ended being the conclusion?
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snarfed kylewm: right, but we'd get them if they're also signed up w/instagram
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snarfed yeah. i'm still inclined to make the Source the parent
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GWG I'm starting to put in the rel-syndication links manually using Post Metadata, with an option to extract from the posting plugin in future.
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kylewm yeah exactly, that would be simpler
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snarfed GWG: great!
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snarfed rel-syndication links are the right way to go
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snarfed most people also put a link to the original post in the tweet or facebook post or whatever, that's the traditional way
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GWG snarfed: But, if I omit the link to the original post, will Bridgy still find it?
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kylewm let's do that (discovery for one silo at a time). the transaction stuff will get confusing quickly if you are adding to more than one Source at a time
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GWG That was what you were talking about the other day, I recall.
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kylewm GWG: also talking about it right now :)
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snarfed kylewm: well, you could still look up other sources if you can determine silo domain and username/id from the rel-syndication link
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snarfed it's just that you'd require *a* source
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kylewm oh oh ok we were not talking about exactly the same thing
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snarfed but i'm fine only doing the current source if you want. probably include a comment where we *could* look up a separate source
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snarfed heh, yeah, tricky to talk about, esp over irc
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snarfed GWG: short answer is not yet, but kylewm is working on it!
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GWG kylewm: How is that going?
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snarfed details in http://indiewebcamp.com/posse-post-discovery
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snarfed and https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/pull/130
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GWG Should be interesting.
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kylewm if you were doing discovery for kylewm with Sources twitter and facebook concurrently, couldn't you run into that same race condition? at least with synchronizing on the Source
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kylewm ack, without*!
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kbs finds a magic java 1.7 hack for mac 10.6.8 and blithely codes where angels fear to tread.
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snarfed lol. go go kbs!
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kbs (please remember to say "I told you to upgrade macos instead" when this house of cards collapses :)
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GWG snarfed: I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the data once it gets to Wordpress
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KevinMarks !tell JonathanNeal,KartikPrabhu,tantek, aaronpk how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed kylewm: you'd do a transaction (scoped to Source, since it's the parent ie root entity), query for an existing SyndicatedPost with the value(s) you care about, and either update it or write a new one depending on what you find. that would prevent overlapping or dupes
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GWG snarfed: https://snarfed.org/2014-04-20_happy-easter-from-the-cloud-house Take this link from some guy's wordpress site.
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks: did you see http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##was+still++-1 ?
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Loqi JonathanNeal: KevinMarks left you a message 39 seconds ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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snarfed GWG: go on…
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GWG snarfed: I was looking at ways to consolidate that data in the display. It takes 5 page downs to get through what amounts to 16 likes and 2 favorites
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KevinMarks yes, I still think it's a comvoluted unnecessary syntax that will confuse people
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GWG snarfed: And the one actual comment gets buried in the midst of that
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snarfed GWG: ahhh. rendering. true!
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snarfed eh it's a personal choice. you're right, mine definitely has drawbacks
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GWG snarfed: It is the default. You suggested the via to the developer of the semantic linkback plugin though.
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KevinMarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html##more+complex+syntax
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snarfed GWG: good point. i think will norris has worked on facepiles for likes, RTs, etc
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kylewm snarfed: really appreciate the pointers, sorry for all the back and forth! to recap, I'll go forward with making SyndicatedPost a child of Source (since that will be hard to change later), and for now do only discovery for the current Source with comments about how to do it better later (since that will be easier to upgrade later)
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GWG snarfed: Yes, his code is also on Github.
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snarfed might be running on http://willnorris.com/
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GWG snarfed: It is. I bookmarked the code.
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snarfed kylewm: np! i appreciate it too. stop apologizing!a
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snarfed that plan sounds good
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GWG snarfed: The thing is that his code does not acknowledge the different types.
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kylewm gah you're right, sorry for all the apologizing ;)
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GWG kylewm: You just apologized again
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snarfed GWG: great! sorry to retread. sounds like you're at the cutting edge with WP. do some trailblazing! :P
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KevinMarks ah, bug report with my blog: https://twitter.com/simevidas/status/458976984635154432
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@simevidas @anildash @kevinmarks Firefox doesn't like outline on inline elements: https://twitter.com/simevidas/status/458976984635154432/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/458976984635154432)
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GWG snarfed: The reason I keep asking is I'm trying to see what people want. Because while I'm doing the design first for myself, I decided to make it something others might want to that would allow for an easy deploy.
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GWG Which is why I'm doing it five different ways instead of one.
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snarfed GWG: sure! UX is above my pay grade. ship and iterate?
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GWG I have a barebones starter theme, a Bootstrapped 'blog' theme, two plugins...
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GWG snarfed: One college course in UX design probably makes it above mine as well.
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GWG I've been out of school for a decade now
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GWG Well, college.
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kylewm GWG: is the facepile stuff such that it has to be done per-theme or could it be a general plugin?
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snarfed GWG: eh, me too, but most of us are probably around tech and UX work on the job plenty
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GWG kylewm: I was reading articles on theme design, and there is an increasing movement to move features out of themes into plugins.
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snarfed kylewm: just fyi, here's an example of a datastore tx that does an ancestor query and then creates or updates: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/publish.py#L246
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GWG kylewm: That caused me to start separating out pieces. But, I need to write the integration into the theme
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GWG You can write a plugin to take over comments.
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GWG Part of the problem I need to look at is that the semantic linkback and the webmention plugins both add functions to the comment handlers. I need to look to see if my doing something similar might conflict.
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kylewm cool
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GWG Which is why I'm leaving that for last, and my comment override function just adds in the markup right now, but otherwise is actually the original Wordpress code
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GWG Will Norris's facepile code doesn't distinguish like/repost/favorite, I believe. And requires the Genesis framework, which I might untangle.
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kylewm fyi, the markup doesn't differentiate between like/favorite either. it's always u-like or (increasingly) u-like-of
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GWG kylewm: But the semantic linkback plugin for Wordpress does
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GWG kylewm: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks
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GWG "The plugin currently supports the following types: mention(default), reply, repost, like and favorite"
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+205) "/* indieweb implementations */ drupal and wordpress again" (view diff)
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kylewm huh, interesting that over time, twitter's 'favorite' has become a lot more like 'like'
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kylewm anil dash with his 143k favorites
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GWG kylewm: So, I'm thinking of coming up with two views for it. An aggregate...total number of each type...an a longer view to look at who is doing what.
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+422) "/* Related work */ 2007 version of this idea" (view diff)
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kylewm that sounds simultaneously really nice and also like maybe information overload
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@aStateofKate RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458995704505974784)
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kylewm also Tumblr sort of has a middle ground, where reposts are listed longform, but don't take up all that much space
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GWG kylewm: Expanded view would likely be a facepile. Abbreviated view would likely be a badge with number
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/458401038345977856/458995704505974784 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
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kylewm woohoo, possed an event rsvp through bridgy publish!
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kylewm snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 11 karma
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KevinMarks JonathanNeal: what was your point re the MSFT paper? afaik that only referred to annotations within the same document, so you were in control of ids on both
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GWG kylewm: Haven't even gotten there
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kylewm GWG: I just added <a class="u-in-reply-to" href="facebook event"></a> and <span class="p-rsvp">yes</span> to a post, and then asked bridgy to publish it... not much effort on my end
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@PersonaInc How much is your personal data worth? - http://www.ft.com/home/uk http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/927ca86e-d29b-11e2-88ed-00144feab7de.html #PersonaInc #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/458998591118262272)
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GWG kylewm: It is what I'd call a 2.0 feature. I'm focusing on notes, replies, and articles right now.
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kylewm agreed, no native support for events or rsvps in my software either
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KevinMarks JonathanNeal: added links to your and other nth word proposals to http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html##been+proposals
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GWG kylewm: I have grand dreams. They may not all come to fruition
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GWG So I'm trying to aim low for my first release.
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GWG And low is pretty high
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kylewm haha, that's a good plan :)
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GWG My plan is:
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GWG 1.0 - A release with enough goodies that someone other than me could use it to immediately involve themselves with the Indieweb.
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GWG 2.0 - More refinements and godies.
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@KingGunn RT @PersonaInc: How much is your personal data worth? - http://www.ft.com/home/uk http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/927ca86e-d29b-11e2-88ed-00144feab7de.html #PersonaInc #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/459001911635873792)
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rascul i may be in a position in the near future to offer some free vps for indiewebbers
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rascul not sure though how that might work out or if there's enough interest
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GWG rascul: How?
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rascul i'm probably getting a dedicated server soon because i'm tired of shuffling a bunch of vps around at digitalocean
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rascul i found some interesting deals from soyoustart that i might take up
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rascul i decided that instead of spending $80-$100 on a bunch of vps, i can get a dedicated server for less and have more vps!
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GWG rascul: I run at Linode, but they had an unprecedented outage last week
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rascul i used to use linode but they're not cost effective for me nowadays
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aaronpk they just had a nice price drop
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Loqi aaronpk: KevinMarks left you a message 57 minutes ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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aaronpk half the cost for the same hardware, or the other way to look at it is free upgrade
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GWG aaronpk: They halved the CPU cores though, but I'm still at a lower load.
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GWG I have two Linodes running
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aaronpk has like 5 :/
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GWG aaronpk: What do you use them for though?
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aaronpk tons of small sites
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rascul still $20/month for the smallest isn't cost effective for me but now that they do hourly rates it wouldn't be as bad i guess
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GWG I have a database node and a webserver node
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aaronpk I just moved all the indiewebcamp sites to a new one
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aaronpk yeah I have a DB one, and in theory should just have one web server
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GWG But I have some people who chip in.
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GWG I started a co-op sort of thing
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aaronpk but in reality I end up half finishing migrations, so I still have "old old" ones running
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rascul i host a few sites for various people also for free, i'm happy hosting personal type stuff and whatnot
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aaronpk i'm debating moving everything to AWS, but not sure that would actually be cheaper
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rascul aws can be good for pricing but their pricing scheme can be hard to understand if you're new to it
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GWG aaronpk: It depends. Linode caps the new hourly rates at the old monthly rates
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GWG AWS will just keep running the meter
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aaronpk a single micro instance is like $4/mo if you pay for a year
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aaronpk and if you look at the rest, they are comparable to linode
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GWG I have a Low End VPS in Buffalo I use for testing that is $19/yr
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rascul is there an indieweb icon anywhere? preferrably something that is or can be in an icon font?
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GWG But, without one guy who is squatting on my nodes, I'd be paying $40 a month
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/logo and http://indiewebcamp.com/press-kit but nothing that looks like it would work as an icon font
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rascul yeah that doesn't look very icon fontable
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kylewm kartik made a favicon sized icon recently
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GWG Do we have any artists who might be up for a nice square vector type logo?
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rascul kylewm ooo might you have a link somewhere?
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aaronpk should add to /logo when you find it
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kylewm http://indiewebcamp.com/File:iwc-icon.svg
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rascul i could maybe do something with that, thanks
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GWG Why am I suddenly picturing the Indie icon pack?
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GWG I should turn brain off.
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Loqi yea
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rascul hehe
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rascul https://github.com/barnabywalters/indieweb-icons
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 1 hour, 15 minutes ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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rascul ipv4 almost gone https://www.arin.net/announcements/2014/20140423.html
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tantek KevinMarks: cool!
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tantek really like your use of top level files as blog posts
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rascul time for me to go away again
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tantek what server software are you running? should be possible to: 1) omit www. and 2) auto-load .html
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tantek rascul what happened?
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rascul lunch about to be over
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tantek oh! feed thyself! :)
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GWG I haven't even started work yet
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rascul but before i go i feel obligated to voice my support for the removal of www and link to http://no-www.org
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tantek yes!
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tantek.com created /www (+276) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek rascul nice reminder. see http://indiewebcamp.com/www
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tantek (just created)
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aaronpk that's an odd looking URL, lol
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tantek not nearly as much as https://indiewebcamp.com/https
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tantek :D
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aaronpk ha
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tantek KevinMarks: which webserver are you using?Apache? nginx?
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aaronpk would be a good idea to include nginx and apache rules to serve .html files without the suffix
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aaronpk (include on the /www page)
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tantek they should have an easy config to add the ability to load ".html" paths by default
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aaronpk yeah it doesn't take much, but I haven't done it in a while
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tantek aaronpk - at least on the /apache and /nginx pages
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tantek oh and maybe we need a /lightspeedhttpd also :/
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: KevinMarks left you a message 1 hour, 41 minutes ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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kbs aaronpk fyi (speaking of odd urls) forgot to give you a heads up about an odd parsing thing going when embedding @ symbols within urls. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-17/line/1397755194
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aaronpk lol wow
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kylewm aaronpk: still ok to add KartikPrabhu's square icon to /logos? and should I differentiate between official/unofficial?
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aaronpk overly agressive twitter username matching?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: what is this about my icon?
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kylewm rascul was asking for a font-able IWC icon earlier, and I sent the link to http://indiewebcamp.com/File:iwc-icon.svg
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KartikPrabhu oh! yeah.. that might not be official in anyway
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kbs aaronpk: seems like that, yea. Saw that a few days back but never quite remembered to let you know. [If there's a suitable bug-list or somtehing somewhere, be happy to add it so you can get to it when appropriate]
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kylewm ”might not be official“ as in, you have a better one? or not sanctioned by the IWC overlords?
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aaronpk lol overlords
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tantek talking with Jeremy Zilar re: IndieWebCampNYC organizing details
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tantek Must Register by 3pm on Friday - to get list of names to security
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tantek security checkin between 9-10am each day.
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kylewm.com edited /logo (+130) "split official/unofficial and added User:KartikPrabhu.com's square icon" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah the mighty overlords have not approved it :P
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KartikPrabhu but if we keeping using it they have no choice but to acquiesce
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tantek overlords?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: eh... kidding of course :P
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GWG tantek: Is putting yourself on the wiki registering?
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tantek RSVP list yes
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GWG Ok
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I rather like the way the small icon references the logo ...would you consider making a version with the gradient?
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kylewm that bit is instantly recognizeable
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I skipped the gradient to keep the icon as small (file-size) as possible. But i'll play around with adding it
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kylewm suspect no gradient would translate better to a font, which is what they wanted it for this morning
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KartikPrabhu yes. a plain svg would be font-able quite easily
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I like this idea http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html##it+COULD+be+a+fragmention
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KartikPrabhu fragmentions are already looking useful :P here in IRC
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tantek kylewm, KartikPrabhu looks good to me!
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tantek nicely done!
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KartikPrabhu w00t! overlord approval!
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Loqi :D
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:iwc-icon-gradient.svg "[[User:KartikPrabhu.com]]'s iwc square icon with gradient background from the main logo"
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kylewm.com edited /logo (+121) "/* Unofficial */ added gradient icon" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: both versions. good idea :)
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kylewm haha, officially proving I am the worst procrastinator in the world!
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Loqi ahahaha
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KartikPrabhu which might be a good thing
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ben_thatmustbeme fragmention is all the buzz lately
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KartikPrabhu on twitter redesign: https://twitter.com/zeldman/status/458979515935764481
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@zeldman New Twitter, designed by my former SVA student, David Bellona. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zeldman/13983796924/ (twitter.com/_/status/458979515935764481)
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KartikPrabhu no one start a flame-war on account of me linking it here!
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC (+553) "/* Organizers */ updates!" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: LOL
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silencematters.com edited /2014/NYC (+12) "/* Invite NYC Bloggers */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu :) hey you never know
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KartikPrabhu interface changes brings out the worst in people somethimes
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+77) "creator link and dfn" (view diff)
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silencematters.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (-13) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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silencematters.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+0) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:Attendee (+31) "update template to resize images to 128px" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: someone already @-replied to him with the Facebook? comment
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KartikPrabhu uh! boy...
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KartikPrabhu and you fav-ed it didn't you :P
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kylewm safe to assume the new design will eventually trickle down to the stream page too yeah?
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC (+77) "/* Organizers */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu that would be unfortunate
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kylewm or whatever is called “Home”
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KartikPrabhu the whole dynamic font thing makes it hard to read
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KartikPrabhu nvm the clutter
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kylewm yeah, dynamic size is an interesting experiment...
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KartikPrabhu also any tweet of mine that has 1 activity gets bumped up :P
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kylewm same
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tantek.com created /lightspeed (+164) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /lightspeed (+3) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu Warren Ellis is speaking at dConstruct! sweet... http://2014.dconstruct.org/
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gRegor` uses and recommends http://jxnblk.github.io/Twipster/ for Twitter web
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gRegor` So much nicer.
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KartikPrabhu not for FF :(
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gRegor` I'm sure it can be set up as a user stylesheet or something.
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gRegor` https://github.com/jxnblk/Twipster/blob/master/Twipster%20For%20Chrome/twipster.css
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KartikPrabhu neato!
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KevinMarks tantek: I'm running on node on heroku, so could add arbitrary routing rules, but the www is an artefact of that. I am looking into switching to static serving from amazon s3, as I don't have any intersting code running server side and your static ideas are compelling
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KevinMarks OK, going to POSSE that fragmentions for poets post.
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aaronpk whoa you're serving html files from node?
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KevinMarks it was easy and quick when I first set this up
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kylewm gRegor`: I just added it to Stylish, works really well!
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gRegor` Cool!
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KevinMarks https://github.com/kevinmarks/kevin-marks.com/blob/master/web.js
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KevinMarks my assumption was that I'd end up writing more server-side stuff over time, but I haven't yet...
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KevinMarks interestingly different comments on blogger and on medium
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KevinMarks blogger I get implementations, medium I get 'look at the NYtimes'
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KevinMarks what's the opposite fo rel="syndication" ? rel="canonical" ?
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bret i do not understand rel=cononical
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KevinMarks rel="canonical" means "this is the original"
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KevinMarks hm, http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values says canonical is not allowed on <a>
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aaronpk why would that be
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KevinMarks who knows
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KevinMarks alternate then?
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kylewm canonical seems like two urls that point to the same thing
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kylewm where one is the preferred permalink
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bear @tantek did you get an answer about nginx allowing .html to be added to a request? the answer is in the "static site example" on /nginx - specifically "try_files $uri $uri.html $uri/ =404;"
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tantek bear - did not
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KevinMarks which is what I'm doing here I think, though canonical as parsed by google means same domain
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tantek could you add a pointer to that as an FAQ? "How do server HTML files without the .html extension in the URL?"
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bear the $uri.html will try the passed in uri with .html added
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bear yes, i'll add that now
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tantek thanks!
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tantek KevinMarks I tried dropping the .html and got a 404
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KevinMarks yep. just simple static serving
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bear.im edited /nginx (+14) "clean up markdown syntax that doesn't work with mediawiki" (view diff)
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KevinMarks why is dropping html desirable?
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aaronpk same reason dropping the ".php" extension is desirable
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aaronpk hide implementation details
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bear.im edited /nginx (+262) "add FAQ entry for "how to add .html" to request" (view diff)
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KevinMarks hm
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KevinMarks you have a .json variant, right?
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bear I always felt that removing the extension was wrong - but so many .php era folks have gotten the web world used to it
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aaronpk bear: lol wait I thought php was the culprit for *not* having people remove the extension
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aaronpk cause things like rails and node frameworks don't even have the concept of serving files in their language, you "run apps" instead
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bear ah - I should reword - the Drupal/Framework .php crowd and the Ruby crowd (maybe?)
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bear yea, I guess I should be ranting against the app scene
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aaronpk KevinMarks: yeah if you add .json to any of my URLs it'll run it through the mf2 parser. it's a cheap content negotiation trick so you can do it in a browser without setting the Accept header to json
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KevinMarks so should you do .png so it can be embedded in a tweet?
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bear.im edited /nginx (-1) "change bullet list to TOC friendly format" (view diff)
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tantek tickets are on sale for dConstruct 2014 on 2014-05-19: http://2014.dconstruct.org/
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tantek question is what time(zone)?
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tantek ;)
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tantek reads http://jkphl.is/articles/of-excellence-and-reputation/ by @jkphl
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aaronpk it's long, would love a summary when you're done :)
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KartikPrabhu he does have a good webmention comments thing going on
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snarfed my company is not at all indieweb, but i'm happy that we're now at least own-your-data friendly: http://blog.persistent.info/2014/04/getting-all-your-data-out-of-quip.html
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snarfed (uses https://quip.com/api/ )
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aaronpk oh hey I just saw that on hackernews
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snarfed great!
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gRegor` WordPress is a notable php project that hides the extension (granted, by handling permalinks instead of direct .php file access) aaronpk, bear
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aaronpk oh yeah there are plenty that do, and most php frameworks hide the extension. i'm just talking about by default dropping php files into a folder means you need to access them with the extension, and few other languages work that way
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gRegor` Gotcha
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kylewm !tell bnvk I think your target param in the call to https://webmention.io/api/count on your page is being double-escaped. Not sure if you use that or not :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` I hadn't thought of dropping ".html" to hide implementation details before. Only in terms of cleaner URLs.
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gRegor` I have seen some client projects where .html was explicitly set to be handled by PHP. Pretty crazy.
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aaronpk i used to do that with .css :)
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aaronpk dynamic stylesheets!
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gRegor` Handled by PHP?? Haha
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gRegor` Nice
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bear the really funny part is that I had to use that pattern on my own site because it used to be a wordpress site - the "never break a URL" rule overrode my dislike of hiding extensions
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gRegor` Heh
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bnvk kylewm: thanks, i'll check it out
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Loqi bnvk: kylewm left you a message 2 minutes ago: I think your target param in the call to https://webmention.io/api/count on your page is being double-escaped. Not sure if you use that or not :)
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gRegor` I like cleaner URLs, but it doesn't bother me to see .php in the URL, from a "hide the implementation" perspective. Most servers will tell you what it is, with or without the extension.
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KartikPrabhu I've started using "Shared on" as a term to indicate syndication to silos, would like to know other suggestions? :)
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aaronpk I like that, I might change mine
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aaronpk mine is "view conversation on" right now
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KartikPrabhu I thought "syndication" is more of a plumbing-term. "Posted on" would mean there is a full-copy
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KartikPrabhu so "shared" seemed better :)
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aaronpk I would use "Also posted on" over "posted on"
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rascul if i were using php, i would want to hide that too
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aaronpk lol
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onewheelskyward I heard that. :)
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rascul oh that was a joke forgot the smiley ;)
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aaronpk rascul++
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Loqi rascul has 1 karma
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rascul ooo
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@jeremyzilar Do you care about independent publishing and ownership of content? Come to @IndieWebCamp NYC this wknd at @nytimes http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (twitter.com/_/status/459059068540563458)
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aaronpk i wish there was something you could actually do with the karma
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rascul will -- remove a karma?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk outlook--
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Loqi outlook has -532 karma
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rascul hehe
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gRegor` I wish karma worked with my backtick
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aaronpk gRegor`++
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gRegor` frowns
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aaronpk aw
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rascul gRegor\`++
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gRegor` Haha
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gRegor` No worries
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (+38) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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rascul hrm i don't think i like my site's design i might need to start over
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aaronpk I know the feeling
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gRegor` That used to be a neverending problem for me, rascul
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rascul i'm not much of a designer
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gRegor` Spend a lot of time perfecting a design, launch it, but quickly tire of it since I looked at it for months already
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KevinMarks I just gave up and used plain html
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KevinMarks though I did add some css for fragmentions
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gRegor` Somehow I've lucked out with my latest and I still love the minimalism
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KevinMarks probably should set some kind of wrap limit
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aaronpk gRegor`++
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Loqi gRegor` has 1 karma
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rascul mine isn't launched yet and has no real content so changing it doesn't hurt anything except the time i spent on it
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gRegor` WOO!
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rascul gRegor` wins!
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gRegor` Thanks, aaronpk
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aaronpk :)
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@jeremyzilar When you post something on the web, it should belong to you. Come make the #indieweb @indiewebcamp NYC this weekend. http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (twitter.com/_/status/459060648815894528)
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gRegor` aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 432 karma
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gRegor` Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 252 karma
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gRegor` ++++
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gRegor` :)
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aaronpk -++
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rascul is ++ a valid nick? hrm
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Loqi has -51 karma
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gRegor` Heh
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aaronpk i dont even...
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gRegor` \+==
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gRegor` Er
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gRegor` \+++
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gRegor` \++
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gRegor` I think it's hilarious dash has -51
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rascul ---
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Loqi too much karma!
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aaronpk you win, loqi
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gRegor` This reminds me of plusplusbot on Twitter
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gRegor` Wonder if it still works. I thought it did last I checked, a year or so ago
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@alexremington Unless you post something that doesn't belong to you. MT @jeremyzilar @indiewebcamp When you post something on web, it should belong to you. (twitter.com/_/status/459061381858615296)
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gRegor` Apparently not. http://plusplusbot.com/
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aaronpk how long until we have indieweb bots?
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kylewm ha, how’d outlook get so dekarmaed?
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aaronpk I should make Loqi a real web page so he can webmention people
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rascul do it!
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks: I like your radical approach to it-might-be-an-id
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gRegor` By existing, kylewm?
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gRegor` BOOM. Roasted.
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gRegor` Ooh, a karma webmention handler?
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kylewm Outlook good? Signs point to no.
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aaronpk magic 8 ball webmention bot!
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks: I don’t think you outlined my idea for nth occurrence, which is dictated by two spaces, e.g. #rage++3
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aaronpk oh jeez I just realized I have loqi.me which would be perfect for this...
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Loqi yeah!
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gRegor`_ kicks gRegor`
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@backyardbeyond RT @jeremyzilar: When you post something on the web, it should belong to you. Come make the #indieweb @indiewebcamp NYC this weekend. http… (twitter.com/_/status/459064120479059968)
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GWG I see things have been happening
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GWG Will have to read up
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i was thinking about that, would be cool to be able to like pages from in the chat
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ben_thatmustbeme would make things like tantek's delayed POSSE super easy
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aaronpk whoa what?
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ben_thatmustbeme ttk.me/t4Vi1 ++
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aaronpk ha!
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ben_thatmustbeme for example would just post a like, from me
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aaronpk you want Loqi to be a micropub client
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ben_thatmustbeme we'd need rel me's from a page that loqi controls so he can like on my behalf
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aaronpk no no even better
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aaronpk you auth with Loqi here, then when you say ttk.me/t4Vi1 ++ he makes a micropub request to your site which posts the like
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KevinMarks JonathanNeal: I linked to the irc discusssion, couldn't find it written elsewhere
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, that could work
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ben_thatmustbeme probably change the tag so as not to confuse with karma
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KevinMarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html##nth
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ben_thatmustbeme !like ttk.me/t4Vi1
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aaronpk that'd work
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aaronpk although nicks can't have forward slashes so it isn't ambiguous as ttk.me/t4Vi1++
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aaronpk but !like is more explicit
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed. allows you to like main pages too
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ben_thatmustbeme ttk.me++
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ben_thatmustbeme for example
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, can names not have periods either?
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KevinMarks JonathanNeal: I think http://www.gerv.net/software/fragment-search/ is a warning against more complex syntax
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aaronpk apparently not. I just replaced Loqi's karma matcher with a regex that only matches valid irc nicks
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, i saw that interesting bit earlier
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks: those systems start complicated, what I like about ++ is how it is optional, only appended when you want to seek forward or backward through a collection.
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ben_thatmustbeme honestly, the I don't find the argument that ++ gives a false sense of uniqueness is very strong. Fragmentions, even complex ones could end up not unique just as easily
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme: care to dumb that down for me? your first sentence may have had too many negatives for me to get.
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry
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JonathanNeal Right now, fragmentions collapse white space.
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ben_thatmustbeme I saw the argument made earlier that the ++ syntax gave a false sense of uniqueness
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ben_thatmustbeme or that it is too likely to change
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JonathanNeal So ++ doesn’t exist in fragmentions, therefore, ending with ++1 would seek the next match.
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i mean the ++N
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JonathanNeal Exactly, ++N. Now, what do you think about them? That they are falsely unique?
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ben_thatmustbeme but I think its just as fragile as any fragmention
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ben_thatmustbeme fragmentions without ++1 would be assumed to be possibly unique
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ben_thatmustbeme with the ++1 will definitely be unique but what it points to might not always be the same thing
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kylewm JonathanNeal: what’s the danger of underspecifying and then expanding later if there are a lot of uses in the wild that need ++N?
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JonathanNeal without ++, it is always first-occurance
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JonathanNeal kylewm: poetry
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, it will find the first occurance, if there is one, there may be more though, so its not really unique. How a website deals with that is implementation specific (i'd think of doing a results list in a side bar)
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kylewm KevinMarks’ post has a pretty good explanation of how to find unique lines even in poems with repeated lines
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kylewm unique phrases*
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kylewm but that’s not what i mean… i mean what would be bad about having the simplest, first occurence spec possible, and then if a lot of people are trying to link to poetry, expand it later
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kylewm i know one possible answer is what happened with Markdown, where it has numerous different dialects
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kylewm fragmentation as it were :)
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rascul throws a fragmentation grenade
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ben_thatmustbeme all I was saying was that the main argument against ++1 is that it is fragile. I'd say fragmention itself is pretty fragile so the ++1 just adds uniqueness it doesn't really do anything else
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ben_thatmustbeme s/anything else/any harm/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: all I was saying was that the main argument against ++1 is that it is fragile. I'd say fragmention itself is pretty fragile so the ++1 just adds uniqueness it doesn't really do any harm
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rascul if the content is dynamic, they're both volatile
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rascul oh that's probably obvious already
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kylewm that’s not so bad though… you still have a link to the page, and an idea what phrase the person wanted to link to, if they chose one that was meaningful in addition to being unique
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JonathanNeal rascul: yes, but it’s not harmful to point out that fragmentions are not practical for dynamic content.
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ben_thatmustbeme I don't like the idea that without the ++ HAS to return the first occurance though, i'd prefer to leave that as an implementation choice
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rascul JonathanNeal indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme s/++/++1/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: I don't like the idea that without the ++1 HAS to return the first occurance though, i'd prefer to leave that as an implementation choice
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KevinMarks2 I argue that they are more practical for dynamic content than ids or the emphasis thing
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme: right now, the implementation already seeks first occurrence. Were you expecting it to search through certain elements before others?
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kylewm implementation choice, i agree with that… might highlight all instances, and scroll to the first one
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks2: yes, IDs and emphasis algorithms are just as fragile for searching dynamic content.
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ben_thatmustbeme JonathanNeal: no, but I might choose to search for the last occurrence if my site shows a log for example
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ben_thatmustbeme JonathanNeal: alternatively I might want to get all occurrences of it. it depends on the application
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme, kylewm, great ideas, tell me how you would configure this.
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JonathanNeal And remember that ##term should still do something useful for people who add zero CSS/JS.
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KevinMarks2 But a nice long fragmention is useful data to stick into your site fuzzy matching Markov chain Google searching code
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JonathanNeal window.location.fragmentionOrder = 'asc' ?
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KevinMarks2 You could just put the entire block quote in
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@ianwaring @kevinmarks Fragmention Support added to my WordPress network: http://www.ianwaring.com/2014/02/28/enterprise-it-meets-the-hall-of-marbles/##million+marbles or http://www.ianwaring.com/2014/04/23/indie-web-fragmention-support-added-here/##off+Github #fragmention #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459073702836334592)
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ben_thatmustbeme what do you mean by something useful with zero CSS/JS. What do you do now on a page that you fragmention with zero JS?
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JonathanNeal Right now, if they do not add any additional JS, it scrolls to the element.
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ben_thatmustbeme Ah, you are looking at this from the perspective of a JS file added in to the site.
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ben_thatmustbeme without anything additional I'm thinking you could just have a list of the matches and create #links to them
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps just create a list of results up front with a link to them with the ++1 / ++2 / etc on them
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ben_thatmustbeme I'd use ##mention to go to the results list (or the first result if there is only one) and ##mention++0 to go to the first
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ben_thatmustbeme though I don't really like ++0 as a thing
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme: ++0 is not a thing, or rather it's as useless as adding index.html to a root domain of a regular website.
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rascul not useless if index.html isn't the default index page!
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ben_thatmustbeme JonathanNeal, I'm thinking of a way to destinguish between "get me a list of all results" and "get me the first result"
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rascul ++0 for list
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ben_thatmustbeme actually I'd probably just use ++1 to mean the first (not second)
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JonathanNeal rascul: I hope the point was made regardless.
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rascul ##mention++0 for list, ##mention++N for Nth, ##mention for first
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, ++0 is not something i would like
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rascul s/++0/++list/
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Loqi rascul meant to say: ##mention++list for list, ##mention++N for Nth, ##mention for first
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme: not opposed to ++list at first glance.
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aaronpk ++all?
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rascul ++0 is too computerey and less humany
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ben_thatmustbeme ++all and ++list could potentially have different uses
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JonathanNeal rascul: better not to think about ++0
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rascul ++all to highlight all matches
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ben_thatmustbeme but now we are on a slippery slope of ++[a-zA-Z0-9]
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rascul JonathanNeal indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme ++last
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aaronpk i don't understand what you mean by returning multiple anywya
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme: you mean keywords, yes, any one keyword introduces a concept of keywordS
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ben_thatmustbeme or key phrases
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ben_thatmustbeme ++second+to+last
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JonathanNeal then someone adds in term++insensitive
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ben_thatmustbeme ohh, that could be very useful
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KartikPrabhu seems I have transitioned to KevinMarks2's side of this. No one thinks of "I want to tell my friend about the 2nd time this phrase occurs". I feel we think "I want to to link to this phrase or around it"
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rascul ++to+infinity+and+beyond
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ben_thatmustbeme at this point we are getting in to things that should be just a search in GET params
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KartikPrabhu exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme I think the difference is really we are saying GET params go to the server, ## params go to the front end JS
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: it should always be simple, I just want to add in something for short phrases that occur multiple times. In one example posted here, I had tried to link to the first three words in a sentence, but they occurred earlier in the document, in the middle of some paragraph.
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rascul oh i just forked fragmentions thinking to add ++N to it, but then i saw it was already there
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ben_thatmustbeme ?s=searchterm means search the DB and only show me results, ##searchterm is find this on the page
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ben_thatmustbeme browsers could in theory support it natively as just a call to their "find in page"
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ben_thatmustbeme it really feels like we are just recreating that same functionality just on webpages instead of in the browser
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aaronpk i thought the point of fragmentions was that they eventually would be supported by browsers
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme: you're forgetting that people would share these links.
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rascul yeah the link sharing is what makes it good
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JonathanNeal And yes, the point is to make something that browsers would find worthy.
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks2: it is easy to want to make it a big complicated thing, but as long as multiple occurrences are handled, which they are, I think we're good.
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, I think i'd rather drop the ++<keyword> idea
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JonathanNeal At this point, with the buzz growing and people sharing their ## double-hash links, do you wish you had started with single hashes?
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ben_thatmustbeme for the last perhaps --1 would be a way to go
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: In those cases I think it is upto the link generator script/code to make sure it links to the first one
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KartikPrabhu for instance nothing stops people from having two elements with id="myid"
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KartikPrabhu even if you meant the second one, the browser will show you to the first occurence
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu, sadly nothing stops it, doesn't mean its right
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rascul ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 2 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme actually thats a method for sorting right there ##mention-- (to reverse sort)
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aaronpk what is this list / sort thing i keep hearing
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JonathanNeal ben_thatmustbeme: - means dash not minus
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: exactly! so we shouldn't worry about multiple cases. Leave it to the link generators to sort out
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KartikPrabhu but I think KevinMarks2 already made a case for that. So I'll not interrupt this discussion :)
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ben_thatmustbeme anyway, I need to head home
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ben_thatmustbeme train time
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kbs has a feeling that fragmentions has started taking on an independent life of its own - like all great ideas :-)
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ben_thatmustbeme and sadly the connection on there isn't great
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@taichnique RT @fdevillamil: UU: a private paste, with Client-side AES encryption. File uploads / Syntax highlighting. #indieweb #selfdogfood https://t… (twitter.com/_/status/459081851202985984)
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KartikPrabhu what I'm now thinking of is how to generate/associate fragmentions with other stuff. e.g. images
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kbs oh, that's a clever idea!
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aaronpk why?
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kbs I can see it make sense on a video, which people now do with timestamps
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kbs I can also see it being useful to tag a face/place on a picture
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kbs not sure whether there's a simple way to do it, like KevinMarks is doing with text though, that might be the kicker
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: just like I want to tell a friend "this paragraph is great" in a blog, I would like to say "look this image in this blog is sweet". I know I can give the src of the image but that get's rid of the context
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kbs oh!
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kbs blushes and &
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KartikPrabhu also, if fragmention+webmention is used to generate 'annotations' (something I'm interested in) it should be do-able for images too
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@maitrey0da RT @fdevillamil: UU: a private paste, with Client-side AES encryption. File uploads / Syntax highlighting. #indieweb #selfdogfood https://t… (twitter.com/_/status/459083017764757505)
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aaronpk heh, give each image a linkable id which is a small hash of its URL. use newbase60 for the character set so it's high density, and use a small hash space since there won't be that many images on a page anyway.
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KartikPrabhu that could be said of paragraphs as well though...
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aaronpk but paragraphs already have words which are more human friendly
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aaronpk the linkable URLs would look like http://example.com/post/100#&XXXXXXXX or something meaning the image with hash XXXXXXXX
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KartikPrabhu ah! they don't look better than any id you mean... good point
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aaronpk s/image with hash/image whose URL hashes to/
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: the linkable URLs would look like http://example.com/post/100#&XXXXXXXX or something meaning the image whose URL hashes to XXXXXXXX
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KartikPrabhu and here I was harping about human-readable fragmentions
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 434 karma
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aaronpk actually that would work to link to any resource on the page, not just images
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KartikPrabhu yup! agreed! scratch that whole image fragmentions thing :P
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KartikPrabhu note to self: Keep It Simple, Stupid!
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aaronpk oh I was actually talking about fragmentions for images so that you can link to any image even if the publisher didn't include IDs on their images
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aaronpk same way fragmentions let anyone link to text without the publisher needing to know about it
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KartikPrabhu oh I see! eh... so not so stupid :P
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aaronpk if you wanna get real fancy you could link to a spot in an image by adding the x/y location as a percent to the url
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk http://example.com/post/100#&XXXXXXXX@33x50 <-- the image on page /post/100 with URL hash XXXXXXXX at position X=33% Y=50%
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kbs oh, now that's what I initially thought KartikPrabhu was talking about - and neat idea for implementing it too :-)
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KartikPrabhu that is what I was talking about :P and then eh got confused :P
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kbs oh :-)
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ben_thatmusbe2 We'll see how long this lasts
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JonathanNeal i'll return to this discussion later, it’s getting very experimental
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rascul ++last
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aaronpk could also add width and height so you can highlight someone's face in a photo
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KartikPrabhu this is going the media fragments route
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kbs I guess creating the link gets more funky. Nice blue-sky ideas though, love it
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aaronpk yeah you'd need browser support to create the link, either natively or an extension, but seems doable
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KartikPrabhu http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/#general-structure
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ben_thatmusbe2 I saw someone say something about fragmention and webmention to do annotations. The fragility of fragmentions could make that a mess if the source gets edited
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kbs KartikPrabhu: ah, didn't realize this was already being considered - nice
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmusbe2: again that is upto the source editor to take care
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KartikPrabhu same could be said of id-fragment fragility
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kylewm you could have a section at the bottom for “comments on older versions”
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aaronpk oh nice, yeah the media-frags doc already has this all specced out
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: confirming HWC-Chicago ... ?
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aaronpk although I believe it is intended to be used on the URL of the actual resource, like xxx.mp3#t,20
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gRegor` Yep
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes. but could be combinedwith frag or fragmention easily
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: cool see you there
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aaronpk so fragmentions could be used to point to a specific resource within the page, then use all that to point to the thing within the resource
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KartikPrabhu yup
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KartikPrabhu really thinks we shouldn't be worried about fragility. what happens to links if the post at the URL is deleted?
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ben_thatmusbe2 Yeah Kevin had mentioned they had a spec for media already but it specifically ignored html
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ben_thatmusbe2 Kartikprabhu I think I've come to agree with you on that. Editing of documents is always assumed possible
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ben_thatmusbe2 Just like links disappearing
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ben_thatmusbe2 isn't sure if he lost connection or is actually the only one talking
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rascul nobody say anything
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rascul oh well ben_thatmusbe2 probably saw me say that so my plans have been foiled already
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmusbe2: yeah. link fragility is always possible wit document edits. Just like having a /tombstone for deleted posts is good practice. Dead/edited fragmentions should be dealt with by the author/authoring software
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ben_thatmusbe2 I'm surprised I haven't lost connection yet
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ben_thatmusbe2 Infamous last words
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KartikPrabhu haha
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KartikPrabhu ok travelling to Homebrew Website Club - Chicago
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KartikPrabhu will keep thinking about fragmention+annotations
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@sandeepshetty First #indieweb Mumbai Meetup. It was just @rakesh314 and me... http://www.sandeep.io/180 (twitter.com/_/status/459091757653708801)
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@kevinmarks “@Debloper: @comzeradd @kevinmarks time to make a Firefox add-on. Okay, soon.” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459096093838409728)
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aaronpk whoa!
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aaronpk indieweb mumbai!
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kylewm interesting, sandeep’s p-name/e-content is in Markdown… must be rendered clientside
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aaronpk no I think he puts e-content around a hidden element that has the markdown source
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kylewm you’re right
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kylewm why? :)
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aaronpk he has a thing about it, I forget
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aaronpk seems less than ideal to me
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Loqi [mention] http://bret.io/2014/04/23/hwc/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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aaronpk yay!
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Loqi giggles
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kbs so since there was a binge on complexifying KevinMarks elegant idea :) (and my penchant for parenthetical comments) my silly annotation idea of the day is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/silly/test.html##when+you+get+it+installed+(and+Mailvelope+is+still+for+crypto+geeks!)
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bret cool! iwc mumbai! so rad
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk kbs: that's crazy
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kbs I agree :-)
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kbs (but I can't resist inserting parenthetical comments, so sue me :)
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kylewm haha, I had to tell IRC to stop allowing close parentheses so it wouldn’t choke on the twtr.io links
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kylewm although I think I’m missing the point of the parenthetical?
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bret kbs: thats rad!
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@sandeepshetty Fuck Comments... http://www.sandeep.io/181 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459104423289954305)
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kbs bret: :-) my procrastinating distraction
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kbs probably should just poke my nose back
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kbs kylewm: dunno - just thought that annotations means annotating the text by the commentator (hence - add the annotation as a parenthetical comment to the fragmention)
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aaronpk oops forgot that there was a tweet version of sandeep's post. really need to add that syndicate button so I can posse after posting
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kylewm aaronpk: do you find the original and the tweet version and multi-reply to both?
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aaronpk no I just reply to the canonical, but syndicate my post to twitter with the proper twitter in_reply_to_id set
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kylewm two different fields in p3k?
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rascul sandeep.io doesn't break lines properly
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kylewm yeah i was complaining about that the other day rascul
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kylewm well subcomplaining about it
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rascul makes it hard enough for me to read that i'd rather not read it
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kylewm aaronpk: or do you find the syndicated copy automatically
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kylewm rascul: that post is really interesting, worth reading
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rascul ok i pasted it into a text editor so i can read it
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bret rascul: iirc some browsers dont have the issue on his sitw
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bret site*
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rascul that's interesting
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bret webkit i think works
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aaronpk kylewm: this is kind of old, but you get the idea: http://aaron.pk/n4Pf1
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rascul chromium i just tested, it breaks the lines fine
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kylewm does Chrome not honor word-break: break-all;
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rascul i dunno
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kbs I guess FF gets penalized for doing 'the right thing' in this case :-)
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rascul chromium here wraps the lines and doesn't break the words, which i guess might not be properly in this case
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kylewm aaronpk: OH! so you would actually reply to the twitter post, and it finds the original from there. my bridgy stuff might have an unfortunate side effect for that!
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aaronpk that video is just a demo of when I paste in a twitter URL, it swaps it for the canonical URL
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JonathanNeal okay, i’m back. is there consensus?
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aaronpk but if I paste in a canonical URL then it looks for a syndicated URL and pulls out the tweet id
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@thedatahive The #indieweb can’t just be a niche for techies if it wants to thrive: http://datahiveconsulting.com/2014/04/10/indiewebify-me-and-the-knowledge-gap/ (twitter.com/_/status/459108307673038848)
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bret btw your webmention crud still works well aaronpk. had to use it today
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aaronpk ha cool. it's still accidental
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bret XD
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gRegor` Hello from Chicago HWC!
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aaronpk hello! you're 2 hours early ;)
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bret woo have fun! take notes!
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bret aaronpk: going to be a tad late, class gets out at 6:30
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aaronpk bret: ok cool
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: no you're 2 hours late! :P
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aaronpk aw man
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gRegor` timezones--
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Loqi timezones has -2 karma
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bret lol
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bret what would i be like without time zones? just a single time everywhere
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rascul zulu time!
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@sandeepshetty @kyle_wm Tried sending a webmention to http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/04/23/1 for http://www.sandeep.io/183 but didn't get a response. (twitter.com/_/status/459115725160857600)
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gRegor` Local blog comments interleaved with webmentions: http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/
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aaronpk cool!
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rascul very interesting the comments thing
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gRegor` The datetime link for local comments is just an anchor link to that comment. For the webmentions, it's a link to the original source. Thoughts on that?
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aaronpk seems reasonable
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gRegor` I thought about having the webmentions read like "Ryan Barrett mentioned t his on snarfed.org" and the text snarfed.org would link to the source permalink. But then I thought that's getting rather verbose.
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rascul i don't like datetime links linking to something that isn't strictly datetime related, such as a calendar or something
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rascul because i would never think to click the link or even hover over it for anything else
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gRegor` Hmm, interesting rascul
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gRegor` I'm used to blogs / facebook where the timestamp is a permanent link
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KartikPrabhu agreed!
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rascul i may be the exception and not the norm
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gRegor` I think I'll stick with what I have for simplicity, for now.
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aaronpk gRegor`: agreed about the additional sentence
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aaronpk I'm trying to keep all that kind of stuff out of my site too
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aaronpk I made a point of not including any third-person text about the things I publish there. I'm not going to say "Aaron liked a post on..." for example