#indiewebcamp 2014-04-23

2014-04-23 UTC
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bear.im
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+280) "adding self to guest list"
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KartikPrabhu
man! I should really fix some factual (and diagrammatic) errors in that article!
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jeremyzilar
Nice to see people signing up for IndieWebCamp NYC http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC
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GWG
jeremyzilar: Looking forward to it
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bear
apologizes for breaking ben's annotations/rsvp
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benwerd
confirms that bear did, in fact, mean him
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bear
my post had two h-url items
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bear
so the link on your side had it doubled
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bear
fixing it on my side caused a new entry
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benwerd
aha! thanks - this is a bug at my end. I'll fix this for next time.
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bear
also - not sure what your using for the icon image
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benwerd
whatever it is, it's blank, and it shouldn't have bothered to write an img tag
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benwerd
problems all round
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benwerd
thanks again
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benwerd
I'll make this more resilient!
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bear
:) usage == bugs (at least that's what i've learned to say)
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bear
i'm curious how my item is different from t's - is mine a generic web mention and his some micro event thingy?
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@jkphl
@benwerd [should've been "#indieweb" of course ;)]
(twitter.com/_/status/458772470565072896)
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tantek
bear - that's awesome that you can make it to IndieWebCampNYC!
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+0) "/* Capacity */ counts"
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@zloozshop
Dapatkan Diskon 25% untuk pembelian paket web hosting atau pembuatan toko online di http://www.indieweb.biz dengan belanja T-shirt min 150rb
(twitter.com/_/status/458778203054931968)
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tantek
!spammer zloozshop
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Loqi
Got it! There are now 11 spammers blacklisted
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@erinjo
@jkphl For what it's worth, I agree, and I hope you don't stop pursuing your own #indieweb projects.
(twitter.com/_/status/458781860395380737)
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bear
now to figure out what hotel to stay at
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GWG
How do I get into this event?
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bear
it's an open hack type event - so if you have an indieweb created site, add yourself to the list
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bear
if you wish to create one then IIRC you can add yourself as an "apprentice" or guest
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GWG
bear: I thought because it is at the Times building, you had to be on a list to get in
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GWG
I'm on it already
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tantek
GWG - the list will be taken from the wiki
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GWG
tantek: Good
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GWG
Looking forward to meeting you all
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bear
ah - I never worry about that - it will get figured out i'm sure
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GWG
I can only come on Saturday. I work Sunday afternoon
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tantek
GWG - go ahead and note that in your RSVP
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tantek
that's no problem
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tantek
will be great to have you Saturday
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GWG
tantek: Is there remote for Sunday morning?
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tantek
We'll try to setup a Google Hangout
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tantek
for both days
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GWG
tantek: I can't get to/from Manhattan, but I don't start work till later
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GWG
I'l discuss it there
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GWG
I've been relaxing and fiddling with that test theme site of mine
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GWG
I may have made it worse.
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@paullindquist
@VSChawathe @AlainCouthures @indiewebcamp Sounds like Google is going to put back parts of the api they took out. Until they go total DOM4?
(twitter.com/_/status/458787557325959168)
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tantek
really confused by that thread
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kylewm
whoa. what's the opposite of a silo quit? Check out @raganwald's Tweet: https://twitter.com/raganwald/status/458604929532592128
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Loqi
[@raganwald] I am perfectly serious: I no longer write or host posts about diversity, culture, or equality.
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kylewm
Twitter app added obnoxious "check out this tweet"
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GWG
Anyone here?
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tantek
maybe :)
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GWG
Still trying to figure out syndication links.
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GWG
I'm driving myself crazy slowly
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tantek
GWG - sorry to hear that. anything I can help with?
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GWG
What do you call them?
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tantek
POSSE copies?
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tantek
links to them?
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GWG
Yes
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GWG
I'm not expecting a lay person to know POSSE
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tantek
original post ---- rel=syndication hyperlink ---> POSSE copy
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tantek
nor should any lay person have to know about POSSE
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GWG
I have that.
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GWG
I'm trying to figure out what it should look like on the screen
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tantek
POSSE copy ---- permashortlink ---> original post
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GWG
This is what I have now
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tantek
that's slick!
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tantek
there's some documentation of rel syndication links somewhere
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GWG
I've made some progress.
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GWG
But while I get the concepts, I'm still trying to figure things out
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tantek.com
created /footers (+35) "redir for now"
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GWG
tantek: The question now is what I'm missing that an indieweb site needs
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tantek
a-ha - found it!
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tantek
everyone's using somewhat different UI / wording
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tantek
which is fine
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tantek
GWG - what an indieweb site "needs" is unbounded ;)
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tantek.com
edited /posts-elsewhere (-25) "/* See Also */ link to local rel-syndication"
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GWG
You see how I'm driving myself crazy slowly.
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GWG
I'll be fine eventually.
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tantek.com
edited /rel-syndication (+101) "/* IndieWeb examples */ see more thorough exploration"
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tantek.com
edited /rel-syndication (+22) "/* See Also */ posts-elsewhere"
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tantek.com
edited /syndication (+22) "/* See Also */ posts-elsewhere"
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GWG
tantek: You've been to these indiewebcamps before right?
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tantek
GWG - yes :)
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tantek
GWG, here's a guide on "what to implement next on your indiewebsite" http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
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GWG
tantek: How would you describe them to a newcomer such as myself?
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JonathanNeal
^ ping KevinMarks, KartikPrabhu
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kylewm
GWG: just went to my first indiewebcamp last month. it's roughly one day of discussion ... broken into 45 minute chunks, organized around topics that people suggest that morning
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kylewm
and one day of implementation, where you can show off what you worked on at the end
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GWG
I'll be missing the second day
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kylewm
that'll be fine i think
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GWG
I'm looking at your site.
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kylewm
what do you think?
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GWG
The stars indicate like/favorite type actions?
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kylewm
yeah, originally was using open-thumbs-up from fontawesome, but it looks too just exactly like the facebook thumbs up
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GWG
Very snappy.
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GWG
As I keep saying, I've been obsessing about design lately.
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kylewm
thanks! although i think i unconsciously ripped it off from p3k
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kylewm
oh yeah :) seems you've gone through a lot of iterations
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kylewm
looking very nice! tiny nitpick that it has a horizontal scrollbar on my laptop screen
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GWG
I'm working on it
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GWG
I've been looking at a lot of different sites
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GWG
Getting a lot of feedback
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kylewm
so here's a design question for you, is there a “right” way to do the margin for <p> 's?
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GWG
Do you want an old school indent?
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kylewm
nah I'm fretting over top/bottom margin. Ideally I think I want them to have space between each other but not
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kylewm
to the things around them
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kylewm
I don't want that space after the note content
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GWG
I'd add more to the bottom margin
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kylewm
more?!
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kylewm
haha, I want less
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: what you are looking for is the selector "p+p"
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KartikPrabhu
meaning "p following a p"
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: is that the normal way to do things? I had that in there before but it seemed kludgy
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KartikPrabhu
it is a selector that does exactly what you want
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kylewm
absolutely, but sometimes when I want something that seems difficult to accomplishment it means i'm doing something else wrong :)
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kylewm
accomplish*
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KartikPrabhu
you caould also do p:last-of-type {margin-bottom:0}
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kylewm
fancy!
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kylewm
thanks KartikPrabhu
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kylewm
the normal metric (kludge -> something is wrong upstream) might not apply to CSS
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KartikPrabhu
no it sort of does.
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KartikPrabhu
I usually think of CSS rules in words in my head and then sue the ones that are closest
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KartikPrabhu
so do you want "both margins on all paragraphs except last one" or "margins on top of all paragraphs" or "margins on all paragrpahs next o another"
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KartikPrabhu
er.. too many typos to fix :P
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GWG
You want less? Interesting.
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kylewm
I think the reality is I don't know what I want, or what I want isn't consistent
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kylewm
like I want a margin between a <p> and an <img>, but I don't want a <p> wrapping post content to add margins to the post body
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Loqi
gives kylewm a margin between a
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah that does sound like complicated rules
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KartikPrabhu
don't know why it fails on mobile :(
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kylewm
yeah see I suspect that means it's an html problem, not a css problem
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KartikPrabhu
don't write HTML based on how it should look. If you think something is a paragraph then it is a <p> and so on
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: a good fail for multiple instances is http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html##was+still
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JonathanNeal
look at the beginning of the paragraph directly beneath the highlighted paragraph.
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KartikPrabhu
yeah. the selection code is mostly what you have
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KartikPrabhu
hopefully no one really wants to link to "was still" :P
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kylewm
JonathanNeal: out of curiosity, why does that matter? that's a super common phrase
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kylewm
demo looks cool and I'm amused you chose a story with a prominent Gregor
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: as I see it, it would be good to let the user know that they are selecting something ambiguous
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JonathanNeal
kylewm: why should commonality matter to a person creating a link? It was the in-order second and third words of the paragraph I wanted.
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KartikPrabhu
ha! yeah... I seem to be making demo choices with hidden indieweb folks as characters :P
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JonathanNeal
kylewm: and then, imagine poetry.
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JonathanNeal
It’s an issue I want to see us resolve.
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kylewm
(oh yeah I forgot I pointed out a name thing in another one of your screencaps, sorry that's a little obnoxious of me ;) )
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JonathanNeal
The last person to solve this with any luck used the Levenshtein calculation. I hope we can find something much more layman.
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KartikPrabhu
looks that up
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KartikPrabhu
eh... too complicated
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kylewm
that's interesting... to me the tradeoff for simplicity is worth the rare case of duplicate meaningful sentences
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KartikPrabhu
it is nice and fancy but I'd rather give an ambiguous but readable link
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KartikPrabhu
that's why I want to get this in the wild. See if people complain...
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KartikPrabhu
maybe I'll write a post about fragmentions with lots of multiple important phrases
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JonathanNeal
##was+stil#2, ##was+still:2 #2##was-still, I dunno
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kylewm
I really like the idea of a client side warning that "hey that link doesn't link to what you think it links to"
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kylewm
"you keep using that link, I don't think it links where you think it links"
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JonathanNeal
appreciates that reference :)
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kylewm
so poetry is a weird case, doesn't it often have like line numbers/stanza numbers?
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KartikPrabhu
yes. but we'd like to avoid those. you could use those for prose too. paragraph numbers
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JonathanNeal
#was+still++2, #2#was+still, #was+still(2), ...
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KartikPrabhu
all valid suggestions... we should really just see if a lot of folks want to do this...
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JonathanNeal
^ the 1st looks to take advantage of fragmentions never containing two spaces, the 2nd looks to take advantage of space between the double hashes, the third is just lazy.
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KartikPrabhu
how about ##was+stll*2
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KartikPrabhu
s/stil/still
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kylewm
I killed him with markup
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KartikPrabhu
you killed Loqi! You bas$%#$!
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: also valid, I like the double space suggestion since it takes advantage of our not respecting double spaces.
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KartikPrabhu
true! you mind adding these to the wiki as brainstorming?
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kylewm
Gotta use a better example though, ##was+still doesn't really illustrate the problem
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kylewm
maybe you need a really long document like a play
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kylewm
(I mean it's fine for this discussion, but KevinMarks will not be convinced!)
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kylewm
heading to bed, g'night
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: night!
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KartikPrabhu
maybe use KevinMarks' poem example
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: whata re your thoughts on fragmentions for multiple instances of a phrase?
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bret
!tell snarfed curious why this isnt back feeding from bridgy? did I do something wrong? https://twitter.com/bretolius/status/458810965077655552
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed
bret: looking
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Loqi
snarfed: bret left you a message 33 seconds ago: curious why this isnt back feeding from bridgy? did I do something wrong? https://twitter.com/bretolius/status/458810965077655552
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snarfed
interesting, it didn't find the PSC: https://www.brid.gy/twitter/bretolius
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snarfed
oh, it's because of the pic.twitter.com link :/
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snarfed
PSCs are only supported at the very end, to try to prevent false positives
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snarfed
i'd happily accept a PR that loosens that
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: care to try something out?
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KartikPrabhu
with multiple instances?
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JonathanNeal
backwards compatible, but yes, supports multiple instances.
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KartikPrabhu
confirmed on local will update
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JonathanNeal
nice, looks good.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: it seems ++1 finds the second one and ++2 finds the third etc...
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JonathanNeal
Yea, it’s plus 1.
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JonathanNeal
search+term++difference
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JonathanNeal
if you’re looking for the first instance of something, you shouldn’t need to specify any difference, since it would otherwise be +0
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KartikPrabhu
also, is it the ++number instance of the word or the closest element?
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bret
snarfed hrmm
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: good point, it’s the instance of the element containing the word.
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JonathanNeal
instance of the unique element containing the word
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KartikPrabhu
yeah... ok that's what I figured from playing around :)
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bret
snarfed where do you recomend making such a change in the source?
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JonathanNeal
Yea, I could make it go by literal times the word appears, that would probably be what people are expecting, right?
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bret
snarfed rad, bookmarked. I will try to wrap my head around it
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snarfed
great! feel free to ping if you have any q's
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bret
ill probrably need help with that, still super noobish with python
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snarfed
dev setup instructions should be pretty up to date: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/#development
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bret
first i gotta figure out why webmention.js isnt working on chrome
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bret
bet time though
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bret
night!
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bret
bed*
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: re expectations: not sure. Are people expecting the phrase to be highlighted?
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KartikPrabhu
again wild test+feedback for this question
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: I will read through the MS annotations before bed and let you know
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alexlinsker.com
created /User:Alexlinsker.com (+313) "Created page with "Alex -- Alex Linsker Collective Agency's Community Organizer / Proprietor (503) 517-6900 http://collectiveagency.co Tax and Conversation's Statewide Community Organizer ...""
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KevinMarks
I still don't hear a real world use case for ”i want to link to the nth instance of a short phrase" as opposed to a longer unambiguous one
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+136) "/* Itching */ fuzzy updates"
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: agreed that suggesting that users pick a longer selection is better. But would be good to throw out and see what people think
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KevinMarks
how does that msft paper relate?
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KartikPrabhu
It deals with some annotations business, haven't read yet.
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KartikPrabhu
should read and sleep
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@AlainCouthures
@paullindquist @VSChawathe @indiewebcamp Yes, Google will go total DOM4 sooner than later. Are they testing users' reaction?
(twitter.com/_/status/458866258772258816)
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: msft paper talks about new ARIA roles to represent annotations UI. Might be worth considering if someone implements annotations
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: KevinMarks convinced me that linking to nth instance is more fragile than helpful
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tantek
I think it provides artificial confidence of precision
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tantek
that is - some implication of guarantee of nthness being the same
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tantek
whereas it's highly likely to change
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KartikPrabhu
sees the point!
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tantek
simpler failure modes are more user friendly
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tantek
i.e. something goes wrong. user thinks why did this go wrong? user figures out oh, this is so simply predictable (text is now missing) that I know what went wrong!
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tantek
the more complex something is, the more difficult it is for users to predict and understand why something failed, the less of a chance they have of correcting the error
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tantek
that's my attempt to expand upon KevinMarks's reasoning. not trying to put words in his mouth but rather provide additional reasoning.
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KartikPrabhu
hmm true! I see what you mean...
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KevinMarks
also, it's an odd thing to express. the nyt changing their model from index based to content based supports this
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (-3) "fix headings"
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+69) "/* indieweb implementations */"
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KevinMarks
new post, "Fragmentions for Poets" - if you like it I'll POSSE to medium http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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rascul
ooo wiki has fragmentions
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rascul
.camp gtld is open? gandi selling indieweb.camp for $32.44
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v0
I wonder who will snatch up indie.web
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v0
I hope it's not some faceless start-up selling digital subscriptions to the latest cloud-based ultra-service.
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barnabywalters
indieweb.construction
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barnabywalters
indieweb.guru
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barnabywalters
indieweb.management
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barnabywalters
indieweb.email
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rascul
indieweb.party? :)
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barnabywalters
aw crap google.glass is taken
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barnabywalters
haha there’s a .guitars gtld
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barnabywalters
I wonder if I could persuade them to add a .gurdy or .hurdygurdy
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rascul
do it
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rascul
they got a process and stuff for registering new gtld
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barnabywalters
IIRC it involves a large sum of lubrication
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rascul
that's a definite possibility
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rascul
i'm not inclined to find out
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rascul
goes away now
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@fdevillamil
UU: a private paste, with Client-side AES encryption. File uploads / Syntax highlighting. #indieweb #selfdogfood https://github.com/octplane/uu.js/
(twitter.com/_/status/458954295980089344)
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gRegor`
Morning, indieweb
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barnabywalters
good morning gRegor`
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gRegor`
How are things across the pond?
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: actually good weather right now — it’s almost summer!
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barnabywalters
and by summer I mean “warm winter”
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gRegor`
:)
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barnabywalters
what’s it like where you are?
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gRegor`
We're in warm winter currently, too. Had some 60 degree days, but it was 40 yesterday. Easing into spring
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gRegor`
Hey ben
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ben_thatmustbeme
you didn't respond in #indiechat, but here you do :P
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gRegor`
Look again
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ben_thatmustbeme
as tantek learned yesterday, don't forget the emoticons
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gRegor`
Forgot it was open
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ben_thatmustbeme
the weather here is rainy and dark
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kbs
someone here unfortunate enough to write java-appengine and android and mac? :-)
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kbs
well, write those two types of apps on a mac anyway
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snarfed
kbs: maybe!
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kbs
android doesn't like > java1.6, appengine doesn't like < java1.7 , and oracle doesn't like creating java 1.7 on < macos10.6.8
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kbs
between all those constraints, I'm pretty well screwed :)
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snarfed
oh man, boo
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kbs
I thought you were mostly working on the python bits at the mothership, is that not the case?
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snarfed
i worked on mostly the platform itself
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snarfed
the language parts are pretty narrow
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snarfed
but as a user i do mostly python, yes
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snarfed
hmm though, i have java 1.7 and i build android apps
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kbs
probably source-compated down maybe. I guess my real issue is macos 10.6.8
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snarfed
yeah i was about to say the samething
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snarfed
that's pretty old :P
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kbs
well, time to xar the 1.7 dmg file and hope for some luck
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kbs
as I don't think I'm going to be able to afford getting a new laptop just for appengine :)
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snarfed
hah, true :/
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kbs
(btw - forgot to thank you for the old but gold 2008 talk on datastore under the covers - awesome talk, extremely helpful)
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kylewm
kbs: I'm confused, should be pretty trivial to write java 1.7 code that is backward compatible with 1.6, not many new features
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snarfed
kbs: glad you liked it!
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snarfed
definitely all still applies
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kbs
kylewm: yea - my problem is mostly running macos 10.6.8 - oracle doesn't provide a jdk that I can install
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kbs
snarfed: yep :) I think I've used all the tricks you delivered in my two-bit apps
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kylewm
i misread your < sign earlier :)
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kbs
kylewm: ah, sorry - my frustration mostly :) realizing I can't actually update any of my semi-running-by-itself appengine apps until I go through this process. ah well
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kylewm
hey snarfed: about the bridgy PR, sorry if i'm beating a dead horse, but is there a case where in the future we might discover syndicated posts for a user that doesn't have a Source? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/pull/130#discussion_r11834978
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kylewm
still trying to work out whether SyndicatedPost needs a key, source property, or ancestor
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snarfed
kylewm: yeah, understood
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snarfed
the main question is whether we need to guarantee uniqueness
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snarfed
e.g. if we have two SyndicatedPosts with the same values, is that ok? does anything break? (e.g. i think query(…).get() might throw an exception, if we need that)
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snarfed
or what if we end up with two that differ on just one of the two values?
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kylewm
oh, if .get() throws an exception, I need to fix that anyway
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snarfed
the way it's structured right now, it should only let one poll task per source run at a time, so if we only create SyndicatedPosts for that source during that task, we can probably get away without a tx
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kylewm
since more than one post can have the same original
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snarfed
not sure about get()
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kylewm
but duplicates shouldn't hurt anything, other than taking up unnecessary space
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snarfed
well, overlapping ones might. if we discover twice due to a race condition, and the post adds a rel-syndication link between the two
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snarfed
but then later we use the old one
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kylewm
oh, for updating an existing post?
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snarfed
arguably the same case as if we just didn't do the second discovery though. more of a consistency problem i guess, if we sometimes get one and sometimes the other
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GWG
snarfed: I have a question for you
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snarfed
kylewm: more like if two separate tasks run posse post discovery against the same source at the same time
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snarfed
GWG: shoot
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GWG
snarfed: Bridgy, I remember seeing some discussion about post discovery.
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kylewm
I would be okay with only storing rel=syndication links for the current Source. so we'd miss syndicated instagram posts while backfeeding the user's twitter replies
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GWG
This is what you guys were talking about on and off.
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GWG
What ended being the conclusion?
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snarfed
kylewm: right, but we'd get them if they're also signed up w/instagram
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snarfed
yeah. i'm still inclined to make the Source the parent
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GWG
I'm starting to put in the rel-syndication links manually using Post Metadata, with an option to extract from the posting plugin in future.
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kylewm
yeah exactly, that would be simpler
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snarfed
GWG: great!
#
snarfed
rel-syndication links are the right way to go
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snarfed
most people also put a link to the original post in the tweet or facebook post or whatever, that's the traditional way
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GWG
snarfed: But, if I omit the link to the original post, will Bridgy still find it?
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kylewm
let's do that (discovery for one silo at a time). the transaction stuff will get confusing quickly if you are adding to more than one Source at a time
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GWG
That was what you were talking about the other day, I recall.
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kylewm
GWG: also talking about it right now :)
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snarfed
kylewm: well, you could still look up other sources if you can determine silo domain and username/id from the rel-syndication link
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snarfed
it's just that you'd require *a* source
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kylewm
oh oh ok we were not talking about exactly the same thing
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snarfed
but i'm fine only doing the current source if you want. probably include a comment where we *could* look up a separate source
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snarfed
heh, yeah, tricky to talk about, esp over irc
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snarfed
GWG: short answer is not yet, but kylewm is working on it!
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GWG
kylewm: How is that going?
#
GWG
Should be interesting.
#
kylewm
if you were doing discovery for kylewm with Sources twitter and facebook concurrently, couldn't you run into that same race condition? at least with synchronizing on the Source
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kylewm
ack, without*!
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kbs
finds a magic java 1.7 hack for mac 10.6.8 and blithely codes where angels fear to tread.
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snarfed
lol. go go kbs!
#
kbs
(please remember to say "I told you to upgrade macos instead" when this house of cards collapses :)
#
GWG
snarfed: I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the data once it gets to Wordpress
#
KevinMarks
!tell JonathanNeal,KartikPrabhu,tantek, aaronpk how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
snarfed
kylewm: you'd do a transaction (scoped to Source, since it's the parent ie root entity), query for an existing SyndicatedPost with the value(s) you care about, and either update it or write a new one depending on what you find. that would prevent overlapping or dupes
#
GWG
snarfed: https://snarfed.org/2014-04-20_happy-easter-from-the-cloud-house Take this link from some guy's wordpress site.
#
Loqi
JonathanNeal: KevinMarks left you a message 39 seconds ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
#
snarfed
GWG: go on…
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GWG
snarfed: I was looking at ways to consolidate that data in the display. It takes 5 page downs to get through what amounts to 16 likes and 2 favorites
#
KevinMarks
yes, I still think it's a comvoluted unnecessary syntax that will confuse people
#
GWG
snarfed: And the one actual comment gets buried in the midst of that
#
snarfed
GWG: ahhh. rendering. true!
#
snarfed
eh it's a personal choice. you're right, mine definitely has drawbacks
#
GWG
snarfed: It is the default. You suggested the via to the developer of the semantic linkback plugin though.
#
snarfed
GWG: good point. i think will norris has worked on facepiles for likes, RTs, etc
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kylewm
snarfed: really appreciate the pointers, sorry for all the back and forth! to recap, I'll go forward with making SyndicatedPost a child of Source (since that will be hard to change later), and for now do only discovery for the current Source with comments about how to do it better later (since that will be easier to upgrade later)
#
GWG
snarfed: Yes, his code is also on Github.
#
GWG
snarfed: It is. I bookmarked the code.
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snarfed
kylewm: np! i appreciate it too. stop apologizing!a
#
snarfed
that plan sounds good
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GWG
snarfed: The thing is that his code does not acknowledge the different types.
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kylewm
gah you're right, sorry for all the apologizing ;)
#
GWG
kylewm: You just apologized again
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snarfed
GWG: great! sorry to retread. sounds like you're at the cutting edge with WP. do some trailblazing! :P
#
GWG
snarfed: The reason I keep asking is I'm trying to see what people want. Because while I'm doing the design first for myself, I decided to make it something others might want to that would allow for an easy deploy.
#
GWG
Which is why I'm doing it five different ways instead of one.
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snarfed
GWG: sure! UX is above my pay grade. ship and iterate?
#
GWG
I have a barebones starter theme, a Bootstrapped 'blog' theme, two plugins...
#
GWG
snarfed: One college course in UX design probably makes it above mine as well.
#
GWG
I've been out of school for a decade now
#
GWG
Well, college.
#
kylewm
GWG: is the facepile stuff such that it has to be done per-theme or could it be a general plugin?
#
snarfed
GWG: eh, me too, but most of us are probably around tech and UX work on the job plenty
#
GWG
kylewm: I was reading articles on theme design, and there is an increasing movement to move features out of themes into plugins.
#
snarfed
kylewm: just fyi, here's an example of a datastore tx that does an ancestor query and then creates or updates: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/publish.py#L246
#
GWG
kylewm: That caused me to start separating out pieces. But, I need to write the integration into the theme
#
GWG
You can write a plugin to take over comments.
#
GWG
Part of the problem I need to look at is that the semantic linkback and the webmention plugins both add functions to the comment handlers. I need to look to see if my doing something similar might conflict.
#
GWG
Which is why I'm leaving that for last, and my comment override function just adds in the markup right now, but otherwise is actually the original Wordpress code
#
GWG
Will Norris's facepile code doesn't distinguish like/repost/favorite, I believe. And requires the Genesis framework, which I might untangle.
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kylewm
fyi, the markup doesn't differentiate between like/favorite either. it's always u-like or (increasingly) u-like-of
#
GWG
kylewm: But the semantic linkback plugin for Wordpress does
#
GWG
"The plugin currently supports the following types: mention(default), reply, repost, like and favorite"
#
kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+205) "/* indieweb implementations */ drupal and wordpress again"
(view diff)
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kylewm
huh, interesting that over time, twitter's 'favorite' has become a lot more like 'like'
#
kylewm
anil dash with his 143k favorites
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GWG
kylewm: So, I'm thinking of coming up with two views for it. An aggregate...total number of each type...an a longer view to look at who is doing what.
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (+422) "/* Related work */ 2007 version of this idea"
(view diff)
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kylewm
that sounds simultaneously really nice and also like maybe information overload
#
@aStateofKate
RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5)
(twitter.com/_/status/458995704505974784)
#
kylewm
also Tumblr sort of has a middle ground, where reposts are listed longform, but don't take up all that much space
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GWG
kylewm: Expanded view would likely be a facepile. Abbreviated view would likely be a badge with number
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kylewm
woohoo, possed an event rsvp through bridgy publish!
#
kylewm
snarfed++
#
Loqi
snarfed has 11 karma
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: what was your point re the MSFT paper? afaik that only referred to annotations within the same document, so you were in control of ids on both
#
GWG
kylewm: Haven't even gotten there
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kylewm
GWG: I just added <a class="u-in-reply-to" href="facebook event"></a> and <span class="p-rsvp">yes</span> to a post, and then asked bridgy to publish it... not much effort on my end
#
GWG
kylewm: It is what I'd call a 2.0 feature. I'm focusing on notes, replies, and articles right now.
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kylewm
agreed, no native support for events or rsvps in my software either
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: added links to your and other nth word proposals to http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html##been+proposals
#
GWG
kylewm: I have grand dreams. They may not all come to fruition
#
GWG
So I'm trying to aim low for my first release.
#
GWG
And low is pretty high
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kylewm
haha, that's a good plan :)
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GWG
My plan is:
#
GWG
1.0 - A release with enough goodies that someone other than me could use it to immediately involve themselves with the Indieweb.
#
GWG
2.0 - More refinements and godies.
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rascul
i may be in a position in the near future to offer some free vps for indiewebbers
#
rascul
not sure though how that might work out or if there's enough interest
#
GWG
rascul: How?
#
rascul
i'm probably getting a dedicated server soon because i'm tired of shuffling a bunch of vps around at digitalocean
#
rascul
i found some interesting deals from soyoustart that i might take up
#
rascul
i decided that instead of spending $80-$100 on a bunch of vps, i can get a dedicated server for less and have more vps!
#
GWG
rascul: I run at Linode, but they had an unprecedented outage last week
#
rascul
i used to use linode but they're not cost effective for me nowadays
#
aaronpk
they just had a nice price drop
#
Loqi
aaronpk: KevinMarks left you a message 57 minutes ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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aaronpk
half the cost for the same hardware, or the other way to look at it is free upgrade
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GWG
aaronpk: They halved the CPU cores though, but I'm still at a lower load.
#
GWG
I have two Linodes running
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aaronpk
has like 5 :/
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GWG
aaronpk: What do you use them for though?
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aaronpk
tons of small sites
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rascul
still $20/month for the smallest isn't cost effective for me but now that they do hourly rates it wouldn't be as bad i guess
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GWG
I have a database node and a webserver node
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aaronpk
I just moved all the indiewebcamp sites to a new one
#
aaronpk
yeah I have a DB one, and in theory should just have one web server
#
GWG
But I have some people who chip in.
#
GWG
I started a co-op sort of thing
#
aaronpk
but in reality I end up half finishing migrations, so I still have "old old" ones running
#
rascul
i host a few sites for various people also for free, i'm happy hosting personal type stuff and whatnot
#
aaronpk
i'm debating moving everything to AWS, but not sure that would actually be cheaper
#
rascul
aws can be good for pricing but their pricing scheme can be hard to understand if you're new to it
#
GWG
aaronpk: It depends. Linode caps the new hourly rates at the old monthly rates
#
GWG
AWS will just keep running the meter
#
aaronpk
a single micro instance is like $4/mo if you pay for a year
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aaronpk
and if you look at the rest, they are comparable to linode
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GWG
I have a Low End VPS in Buffalo I use for testing that is $19/yr
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rascul
is there an indieweb icon anywhere? preferrably something that is or can be in an icon font?
#
GWG
But, without one guy who is squatting on my nodes, I'd be paying $40 a month
#
aaronpk
http://indiewebcamp.com/logo and http://indiewebcamp.com/press-kit but nothing that looks like it would work as an icon font
#
rascul
yeah that doesn't look very icon fontable
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kylewm
kartik made a favicon sized icon recently
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GWG
Do we have any artists who might be up for a nice square vector type logo?
#
rascul
kylewm ooo might you have a link somewhere?
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aaronpk
should add to /logo when you find it
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rascul
i could maybe do something with that, thanks
#
GWG
Why am I suddenly picturing the Indie icon pack?
#
GWG
I should turn brain off.
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Loqi
tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 1 hour, 15 minutes ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
#
tantek
KevinMarks: cool!
#
tantek
really like your use of top level files as blog posts
#
rascul
time for me to go away again
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tantek
what server software are you running? should be possible to: 1) omit www. and 2) auto-load .html
#
tantek
rascul what happened?
#
rascul
lunch about to be over
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tantek
oh! feed thyself! :)
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GWG
I haven't even started work yet
#
rascul
but before i go i feel obligated to voice my support for the removal of www and link to http://no-www.org
#
tantek.com
created /www (+276) "stub"
(view diff)
#
tantek
rascul nice reminder. see http://indiewebcamp.com/www
#
tantek
(just created)
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aaronpk
that's an odd looking URL, lol
#
tantek
KevinMarks: which webserver are you using?Apache? nginx?
#
aaronpk
would be a good idea to include nginx and apache rules to serve .html files without the suffix
#
aaronpk
(include on the /www page)
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tantek
they should have an easy config to add the ability to load ".html" paths by default
#
aaronpk
yeah it doesn't take much, but I haven't done it in a while
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tantek
aaronpk - at least on the /apache and /nginx pages
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tantek
oh and maybe we need a /lightspeedhttpd also :/
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: KevinMarks left you a message 1 hour, 41 minutes ago: how is this write-up? http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html
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#
kbs
aaronpk fyi (speaking of odd urls) forgot to give you a heads up about an odd parsing thing going when embedding @ symbols within urls. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-17/line/1397755194
#
aaronpk
lol wow
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kylewm
aaronpk: still ok to add KartikPrabhu's square icon to /logos? and should I differentiate between official/unofficial?
#
aaronpk
overly agressive twitter username matching?
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: what is this about my icon?
#
kylewm
rascul was asking for a font-able IWC icon earlier, and I sent the link to http://indiewebcamp.com/File:iwc-icon.svg
#
KartikPrabhu
oh! yeah.. that might not be official in anyway
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kbs
aaronpk: seems like that, yea. Saw that a few days back but never quite remembered to let you know. [If there's a suitable bug-list or somtehing somewhere, be happy to add it so you can get to it when appropriate]
#
kylewm
”might not be official“ as in, you have a better one? or not sanctioned by the IWC overlords?
#
aaronpk
lol overlords
#
tantek
talking with Jeremy Zilar re: IndieWebCampNYC organizing details
#
tantek
Must Register by 3pm on Friday - to get list of names to security
#
tantek
security checkin between 9-10am each day.
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kylewm.com
edited /logo (+130) "split official/unofficial and added User:KartikPrabhu.com's square icon"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah the mighty overlords have not approved it :P
#
KartikPrabhu
but if we keeping using it they have no choice but to acquiesce
#
tantek
overlords?
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: eh... kidding of course :P
#
GWG
tantek: Is putting yourself on the wiki registering?
#
tantek
RSVP list yes
#
kylewm
KartikPrabhu: I rather like the way the small icon references the logo ...would you consider making a version with the gradient?
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kylewm
that bit is instantly recognizeable
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I skipped the gradient to keep the icon as small (file-size) as possible. But i'll play around with adding it
#
kylewm
suspect no gradient would translate better to a font, which is what they wanted it for this morning
#
KartikPrabhu
yes. a plain svg would be font-able quite easily
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#
KartikPrabhu
fragmentions are already looking useful :P here in IRC
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tantek
kylewm, KartikPrabhu looks good to me!
#
tantek
nicely done!
#
KartikPrabhu
w00t! overlord approval!
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kylewm.com
uploaded /File:iwc-icon-gradient.svg "[[User:KartikPrabhu.com]]'s iwc square icon with gradient background from the main logo"
#
kylewm.com
edited /logo (+121) "/* Unofficial */ added gradient icon"
(view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: both versions. good idea :)
#
kylewm
haha, officially proving I am the worst procrastinator in the world!
#
Loqi
ahahaha
#
KartikPrabhu
which might be a good thing
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ben_thatmustbeme
fragmention is all the buzz lately
#
@zeldman
New Twitter, designed by my former SVA student, David Bellona. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zeldman/13983796924/
(twitter.com/_/status/458979515935764481)
#
KartikPrabhu
no one start a flame-war on account of me linking it here!
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC (+553) "/* Organizers */ updates!"
(view diff)
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#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: LOL
#
silencematters.com
edited /2014/NYC (+12) "/* Invite NYC Bloggers */"
(view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
:) hey you never know
#
KartikPrabhu
interface changes brings out the worst in people somethimes
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+77) "creator link and dfn"
(view diff)
#
silencematters.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (-13) "/* Creators */"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /Template:Attendee (+31) "update template to resize images to 128px"
(view diff)
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: someone already @-replied to him with the Facebook? comment
#
KartikPrabhu
uh! boy...
#
KartikPrabhu
and you fav-ed it didn't you :P
#
kylewm
safe to assume the new design will eventually trickle down to the stream page too yeah?
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC (+77) "/* Organizers */"
(view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
that would be unfortunate
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kylewm
or whatever is called “Home”
#
KartikPrabhu
the whole dynamic font thing makes it hard to read
#
KartikPrabhu
nvm the clutter
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kylewm
yeah, dynamic size is an interesting experiment...
#
KartikPrabhu
also any tweet of mine that has 1 activity gets bumped up :P
#
tantek.com
created /lightspeed (+164) "stub"
(view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
Warren Ellis is speaking at dConstruct! sweet... http://2014.dconstruct.org/
#
gRegor`
uses and recommends http://jxnblk.github.io/Twipster/ for Twitter web
#
gRegor`
So much nicer.
#
KartikPrabhu
not for FF :(
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gRegor`
I'm sure it can be set up as a user stylesheet or something.
#
KevinMarks
tantek: I'm running on node on heroku, so could add arbitrary routing rules, but the www is an artefact of that. I am looking into switching to static serving from amazon s3, as I don't have any intersting code running server side and your static ideas are compelling
#
KevinMarks
OK, going to POSSE that fragmentions for poets post.
#
aaronpk
whoa you're serving html files from node?
#
KevinMarks
it was easy and quick when I first set this up
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kylewm
gRegor`: I just added it to Stylish, works really well!
#
gRegor`
Cool!
#
KevinMarks
my assumption was that I'd end up writing more server-side stuff over time, but I haven't yet...
#
KevinMarks
interestingly different comments on blogger and on medium
#
KevinMarks
blogger I get implementations, medium I get 'look at the NYtimes'
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KevinMarks
what's the opposite fo rel="syndication" ? rel="canonical" ?
#
bret
i do not understand rel=cononical
#
KevinMarks
rel="canonical" means "this is the original"
#
KevinMarks
hm, http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values says canonical is not allowed on <a>
#
aaronpk
why would that be
#
KevinMarks
who knows
#
KevinMarks
alternate then?
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kylewm
canonical seems like two urls that point to the same thing
#
kylewm
where one is the preferred permalink
#
bear
@tantek did you get an answer about nginx allowing .html to be added to a request? the answer is in the "static site example" on /nginx - specifically "try_files $uri $uri.html $uri/ =404;"
#
tantek
bear - did not
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KevinMarks
which is what I'm doing here I think, though canonical as parsed by google means same domain
#
tantek
could you add a pointer to that as an FAQ? "How do server HTML files without the .html extension in the URL?"
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bear
the $uri.html will try the passed in uri with .html added
#
bear
yes, i'll add that now
#
tantek
thanks!
#
tantek
KevinMarks I tried dropping the .html and got a 404
#
KevinMarks
yep. just simple static serving
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#
bear.im
edited /nginx (+14) "clean up markdown syntax that doesn't work with mediawiki"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
why is dropping html desirable?
#
aaronpk
same reason dropping the ".php" extension is desirable
#
aaronpk
hide implementation details
#
bear.im
edited /nginx (+262) "add FAQ entry for "how to add .html" to request"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
you have a .json variant, right?
#
bear
I always felt that removing the extension was wrong - but so many .php era folks have gotten the web world used to it
#
aaronpk
bear: lol wait I thought php was the culprit for *not* having people remove the extension
#
aaronpk
cause things like rails and node frameworks don't even have the concept of serving files in their language, you "run apps" instead
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bear
ah - I should reword - the Drupal/Framework .php crowd and the Ruby crowd (maybe?)
#
bear
yea, I guess I should be ranting against the app scene
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: yeah if you add .json to any of my URLs it'll run it through the mf2 parser. it's a cheap content negotiation trick so you can do it in a browser without setting the Accept header to json
#
KevinMarks
so should you do .png so it can be embedded in a tweet?
#
bear.im
edited /nginx (-1) "change bullet list to TOC friendly format"
(view diff)
#
tantek
tickets are on sale for dConstruct 2014 on 2014-05-19: http://2014.dconstruct.org/
#
tantek
question is what time(zone)?
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aaronpk
it's long, would love a summary when you're done :)
#
KartikPrabhu
he does have a good webmention comments thing going on
#
snarfed
my company is not at all indieweb, but i'm happy that we're now at least own-your-data friendly: http://blog.persistent.info/2014/04/getting-all-your-data-out-of-quip.html
#
aaronpk
oh hey I just saw that on hackernews
#
snarfed
great!
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gRegor`
WordPress is a notable php project that hides the extension (granted, by handling permalinks instead of direct .php file access) aaronpk, bear
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aaronpk
oh yeah there are plenty that do, and most php frameworks hide the extension. i'm just talking about by default dropping php files into a folder means you need to access them with the extension, and few other languages work that way
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gRegor`
Gotcha
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kylewm
!tell bnvk I think your target param in the call to https://webmention.io/api/count on your page is being double-escaped. Not sure if you use that or not :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
I hadn't thought of dropping ".html" to hide implementation details before. Only in terms of cleaner URLs.
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gRegor`
I have seen some client projects where .html was explicitly set to be handled by PHP. Pretty crazy.
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aaronpk
i used to do that with .css :)
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aaronpk
dynamic stylesheets!
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gRegor`
Handled by PHP?? Haha
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gRegor`
Nice
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bear
the really funny part is that I had to use that pattern on my own site because it used to be a wordpress site - the "never break a URL" rule overrode my dislike of hiding extensions
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gRegor`
Heh
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bnvk
kylewm: thanks, i'll check it out
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Loqi
bnvk: kylewm left you a message 2 minutes ago: I think your target param in the call to https://webmention.io/api/count on your page is being double-escaped. Not sure if you use that or not :)
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gRegor`
I like cleaner URLs, but it doesn't bother me to see .php in the URL, from a "hide the implementation" perspective. Most servers will tell you what it is, with or without the extension.
LauraJ joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
I've started using "Shared on" as a term to indicate syndication to silos, would like to know other suggestions? :)
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aaronpk
I like that, I might change mine
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aaronpk
mine is "view conversation on" right now
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KartikPrabhu
I thought "syndication" is more of a plumbing-term. "Posted on" would mean there is a full-copy
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KartikPrabhu
so "shared" seemed better :)
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aaronpk
I would use "Also posted on" over "posted on"
eschnou and arcatan joined the channel
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rascul
if i were using php, i would want to hide that too
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onewheelskyward
I heard that. :)
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rascul
oh that was a joke forgot the smiley ;)
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aaronpk
rascul++
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Loqi
rascul has 1 karma
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@jeremyzilar
Do you care about independent publishing and ownership of content? Come to @IndieWebCamp NYC this wknd at @nytimes http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC
(twitter.com/_/status/459059068540563458)
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aaronpk
i wish there was something you could actually do with the karma
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rascul
will -- remove a karma?
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aaronpk
outlook--
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Loqi
outlook has -532 karma
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gRegor`
I wish karma worked with my backtick
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aaronpk
gRegor`++
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gRegor`
frowns
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rascul
gRegor\`++
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gRegor`
Haha
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gRegor`
No worries
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rascul
hrm i don't think i like my site's design i might need to start over
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aaronpk
I know the feeling
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gRegor`
That used to be a neverending problem for me, rascul
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rascul
i'm not much of a designer
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gRegor`
Spend a lot of time perfecting a design, launch it, but quickly tire of it since I looked at it for months already
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KevinMarks
I just gave up and used plain html
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KevinMarks
though I did add some css for fragmentions
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gRegor`
Somehow I've lucked out with my latest and I still love the minimalism
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KevinMarks
probably should set some kind of wrap limit
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aaronpk
gRegor`++
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Loqi
gRegor` has 1 karma
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rascul
mine isn't launched yet and has no real content so changing it doesn't hurt anything except the time i spent on it
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gRegor`
WOO!
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rascul
gRegor` wins!
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gRegor`
Thanks, aaronpk
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@jeremyzilar
When you post something on the web, it should belong to you. Come make the #indieweb @indiewebcamp NYC this weekend. http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC
(twitter.com/_/status/459060648815894528)
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gRegor`
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 432 karma
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gRegor`
Loqi++
#
Loqi
Loqi has 252 karma
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gRegor`
++++
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gRegor`
:)
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rascul
is ++ a valid nick? hrm
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Loqi
has -51 karma
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gRegor`
Heh
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aaronpk
i dont even...
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gRegor`
\+==
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gRegor`
Er
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gRegor`
\+++
#
gRegor`
\++
#
gRegor`
I think it's hilarious dash has -51
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Loqi
too much karma!
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aaronpk
you win, loqi
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gRegor`
This reminds me of plusplusbot on Twitter
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gRegor`
Wonder if it still works. I thought it did last I checked, a year or so ago
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@alexremington
Unless you post something that doesn't belong to you. MT @jeremyzilar @indiewebcamp When you post something on web, it should belong to you.
(twitter.com/_/status/459061381858615296)
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gRegor`
Apparently not. http://plusplusbot.com/
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aaronpk
how long until we have indieweb bots?
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kylewm
ha, how’d outlook get so dekarmaed?
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aaronpk
I should make Loqi a real web page so he can webmention people
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rascul
do it!
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: I like your radical approach to it-might-be-an-id
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gRegor`
By existing, kylewm?
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gRegor`
BOOM. Roasted.
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gRegor`
Ooh, a karma webmention handler?
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kylewm
Outlook good? Signs point to no.
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aaronpk
magic 8 ball webmention bot!
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: I don’t think you outlined my idea for nth occurrence, which is dictated by two spaces, e.g. #rage++3
gRegor`_ joined the channel
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aaronpk
oh jeez I just realized I have loqi.me which would be perfect for this...
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Loqi
yeah!
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gRegor`_
kicks gRegor`
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@backyardbeyond
RT @jeremyzilar: When you post something on the web, it should belong to you. Come make the #indieweb @indiewebcamp NYC this weekend. http…
(twitter.com/_/status/459064120479059968)
chloeweil_ joined the channel
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GWG
I see things have been happening
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GWG
Will have to read up
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, i was thinking about that, would be cool to be able to like pages from in the chat
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ben_thatmustbeme
would make things like tantek's delayed POSSE super easy
paulcp joined the channel
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aaronpk
whoa what?
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ben_thatmustbeme
ttk.me/t4Vi1 ++
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ben_thatmustbeme
for example would just post a like, from me
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aaronpk
you want Loqi to be a micropub client
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ben_thatmustbeme
we'd need rel me's from a page that loqi controls so he can like on my behalf
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aaronpk
no no even better
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aaronpk
you auth with Loqi here, then when you say ttk.me/t4Vi1 ++ he makes a micropub request to your site which posts the like
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: I linked to the irc discusssion, couldn't find it written elsewhere
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmmm, that could work
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ben_thatmustbeme
probably change the tag so as not to confuse with karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
!like ttk.me/t4Vi1
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aaronpk
that'd work
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aaronpk
although nicks can't have forward slashes so it isn't ambiguous as ttk.me/t4Vi1++
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aaronpk
but !like is more explicit
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed. allows you to like main pages too
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, can names not have periods either?
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: I think http://www.gerv.net/software/fragment-search/ is a warning against more complex syntax
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aaronpk
apparently not. I just replaced Loqi's karma matcher with a regex that only matches valid irc nicks
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, i saw that interesting bit earlier
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks: those systems start complicated, what I like about ++ is how it is optional, only appended when you want to seek forward or backward through a collection.
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ben_thatmustbeme
honestly, the I don't find the argument that ++ gives a false sense of uniqueness is very strong. Fragmentions, even complex ones could end up not unique just as easily
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme: care to dumb that down for me? your first sentence may have had too many negatives for me to get.
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JonathanNeal
Right now, fragmentions collapse white space.
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ben_thatmustbeme
I saw the argument made earlier that the ++ syntax gave a false sense of uniqueness
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ben_thatmustbeme
or that it is too likely to change
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JonathanNeal
So ++ doesn’t exist in fragmentions, therefore, ending with ++1 would seek the next match.
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i mean the ++N
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JonathanNeal
Exactly, ++N. Now, what do you think about them? That they are falsely unique?
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ben_thatmustbeme
but I think its just as fragile as any fragmention
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ben_thatmustbeme
fragmentions without ++1 would be assumed to be possibly unique
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ben_thatmustbeme
with the ++1 will definitely be unique but what it points to might not always be the same thing
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kylewm
JonathanNeal: what’s the danger of underspecifying and then expanding later if there are a lot of uses in the wild that need ++N?
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JonathanNeal
without ++, it is always first-occurance
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JonathanNeal
kylewm: poetry
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, it will find the first occurance, if there is one, there may be more though, so its not really unique. How a website deals with that is implementation specific (i'd think of doing a results list in a side bar)
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kylewm
KevinMarks’ post has a pretty good explanation of how to find unique lines even in poems with repeated lines
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kylewm
unique phrases*
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kylewm
but that’s not what i mean… i mean what would be bad about having the simplest, first occurence spec possible, and then if a lot of people are trying to link to poetry, expand it later
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kylewm
i know one possible answer is what happened with Markdown, where it has numerous different dialects
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kylewm
fragmentation as it were :)
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rascul
throws a fragmentation grenade
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ben_thatmustbeme
all I was saying was that the main argument against ++1 is that it is fragile. I'd say fragmention itself is pretty fragile so the ++1 just adds uniqueness it doesn't really do anything else
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/anything else/any harm/
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: all I was saying was that the main argument against ++1 is that it is fragile. I'd say fragmention itself is pretty fragile so the ++1 just adds uniqueness it doesn't really do any harm
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rascul
if the content is dynamic, they're both volatile
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rascul
oh that's probably obvious already
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kylewm
that’s not so bad though… you still have a link to the page, and an idea what phrase the person wanted to link to, if they chose one that was meaningful in addition to being unique
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JonathanNeal
rascul: yes, but it’s not harmful to point out that fragmentions are not practical for dynamic content.
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ben_thatmustbeme
I don't like the idea that without the ++ HAS to return the first occurance though, i'd prefer to leave that as an implementation choice
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rascul
JonathanNeal indeed
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: I don't like the idea that without the ++1 HAS to return the first occurance though, i'd prefer to leave that as an implementation choice
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KevinMarks2
I argue that they are more practical for dynamic content than ids or the emphasis thing
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme: right now, the implementation already seeks first occurrence. Were you expecting it to search through certain elements before others?
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kylewm
implementation choice, i agree with that… might highlight all instances, and scroll to the first one
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: yes, IDs and emphasis algorithms are just as fragile for searching dynamic content.
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ben_thatmustbeme
JonathanNeal: no, but I might choose to search for the last occurrence if my site shows a log for example
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ben_thatmustbeme
JonathanNeal: alternatively I might want to get all occurrences of it. it depends on the application
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme, kylewm, great ideas, tell me how you would configure this.
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JonathanNeal
And remember that ##term should still do something useful for people who add zero CSS/JS.
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KevinMarks2
But a nice long fragmention is useful data to stick into your site fuzzy matching Markov chain Google searching code
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JonathanNeal
window.location.fragmentionOrder = 'asc' ?
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KevinMarks2
You could just put the entire block quote in
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ben_thatmustbeme
what do you mean by something useful with zero CSS/JS. What do you do now on a page that you fragmention with zero JS?
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JonathanNeal
Right now, if they do not add any additional JS, it scrolls to the element.
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ben_thatmustbeme
Ah, you are looking at this from the perspective of a JS file added in to the site.
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ben_thatmustbeme
without anything additional I'm thinking you could just have a list of the matches and create #links to them
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ben_thatmustbeme
perhaps just create a list of results up front with a link to them with the ++1 / ++2 / etc on them
fmarier and pasevin joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'd use ##mention to go to the results list (or the first result if there is only one) and ##mention++0 to go to the first
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ben_thatmustbeme
though I don't really like ++0 as a thing
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme: ++0 is not a thing, or rather it's as useless as adding index.html to a root domain of a regular website.
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rascul
not useless if index.html isn't the default index page!
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ben_thatmustbeme
JonathanNeal, I'm thinking of a way to destinguish between "get me a list of all results" and "get me the first result"
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rascul
++0 for list
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually I'd probably just use ++1 to mean the first (not second)
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JonathanNeal
rascul: I hope the point was made regardless.
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rascul
##mention++0 for list, ##mention++N for Nth, ##mention for first
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, ++0 is not something i would like
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rascul
s/++0/++list/
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Loqi
rascul meant to say: ##mention++list for list, ##mention++N for Nth, ##mention for first
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme: not opposed to ++list at first glance.
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aaronpk
++all?
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rascul
++0 is too computerey and less humany
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ben_thatmustbeme
++all and ++list could potentially have different uses
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JonathanNeal
rascul: better not to think about ++0
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rascul
++all to highlight all matches
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ben_thatmustbeme
but now we are on a slippery slope of ++[a-zA-Z0-9]
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rascul
JonathanNeal indeed
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aaronpk
i don't understand what you mean by returning multiple anywya
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme: you mean keywords, yes, any one keyword introduces a concept of keywordS
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ben_thatmustbeme
or key phrases
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ben_thatmustbeme
++second+to+last
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JonathanNeal
then someone adds in term++insensitive
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ben_thatmustbeme
ohh, that could be very useful
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KartikPrabhu
seems I have transitioned to KevinMarks2's side of this. No one thinks of "I want to tell my friend about the 2nd time this phrase occurs". I feel we think "I want to to link to this phrase or around it"
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rascul
++to+infinity+and+beyond
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ben_thatmustbeme
at this point we are getting in to things that should be just a search in GET params
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ben_thatmustbeme
I think the difference is really we are saying GET params go to the server, ## params go to the front end JS
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: it should always be simple, I just want to add in something for short phrases that occur multiple times. In one example posted here, I had tried to link to the first three words in a sentence, but they occurred earlier in the document, in the middle of some paragraph.
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rascul
oh i just forked fragmentions thinking to add ++N to it, but then i saw it was already there
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ben_thatmustbeme
?s=searchterm means search the DB and only show me results, ##searchterm is find this on the page
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ben_thatmustbeme
browsers could in theory support it natively as just a call to their "find in page"
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ben_thatmustbeme
it really feels like we are just recreating that same functionality just on webpages instead of in the browser
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aaronpk
i thought the point of fragmentions was that they eventually would be supported by browsers
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme: you're forgetting that people would share these links.
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rascul
yeah the link sharing is what makes it good
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JonathanNeal
And yes, the point is to make something that browsers would find worthy.
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks2: it is easy to want to make it a big complicated thing, but as long as multiple occurrences are handled, which they are, I think we're good.
kbs joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, I think i'd rather drop the ++<keyword> idea
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JonathanNeal
At this point, with the buzz growing and people sharing their ## double-hash links, do you wish you had started with single hashes?
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ben_thatmustbeme
for the last perhaps --1 would be a way to go
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: In those cases I think it is upto the link generator script/code to make sure it links to the first one
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KartikPrabhu
for instance nothing stops people from having two elements with id="myid"
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KartikPrabhu
even if you meant the second one, the browser will show you to the first occurence
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ben_thatmustbeme
KartikPrabhu, sadly nothing stops it, doesn't mean its right
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rascul
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 2 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually thats a method for sorting right there ##mention-- (to reverse sort)
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aaronpk
what is this list / sort thing i keep hearing
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JonathanNeal
ben_thatmustbeme: - means dash not minus
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KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmustbeme: exactly! so we shouldn't worry about multiple cases. Leave it to the link generators to sort out
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KartikPrabhu
but I think KevinMarks2 already made a case for that. So I'll not interrupt this discussion :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
anyway, I need to head home
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kbs
has a feeling that fragmentions has started taking on an independent life of its own - like all great ideas :-)
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ben_thatmustbeme
and sadly the connection on there isn't great
#
@taichnique
RT @fdevillamil: UU: a private paste, with Client-side AES encryption. File uploads / Syntax highlighting. #indieweb #selfdogfood https://t…
(twitter.com/_/status/459081851202985984)
#
KartikPrabhu
what I'm now thinking of is how to generate/associate fragmentions with other stuff. e.g. images
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kbs
oh, that's a clever idea!
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kbs
I can see it make sense on a video, which people now do with timestamps
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kbs
I can also see it being useful to tag a face/place on a picture
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kbs
not sure whether there's a simple way to do it, like KevinMarks is doing with text though, that might be the kicker
chloeweil joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: just like I want to tell a friend "this paragraph is great" in a blog, I would like to say "look this image in this blog is sweet". I know I can give the src of the image but that get's rid of the context
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kbs
oh!
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kbs
blushes and &
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KartikPrabhu
also, if fragmention+webmention is used to generate 'annotations' (something I'm interested in) it should be do-able for images too
#
@maitrey0da
RT @fdevillamil: UU: a private paste, with Client-side AES encryption. File uploads / Syntax highlighting. #indieweb #selfdogfood https://t…
(twitter.com/_/status/459083017764757505)
#
aaronpk
heh, give each image a linkable id which is a small hash of its URL. use newbase60 for the character set so it's high density, and use a small hash space since there won't be that many images on a page anyway.
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KartikPrabhu
that could be said of paragraphs as well though...
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aaronpk
but paragraphs already have words which are more human friendly
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aaronpk
the linkable URLs would look like http://example.com/post/100#&XXXXXXXX or something meaning the image with hash XXXXXXXX
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KartikPrabhu
ah! they don't look better than any id you mean... good point
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aaronpk
s/image with hash/image whose URL hashes to/
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: the linkable URLs would look like http://example.com/post/100#&XXXXXXXX or something meaning the image whose URL hashes to XXXXXXXX
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KartikPrabhu
and here I was harping about human-readable fragmentions
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 434 karma
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aaronpk
actually that would work to link to any resource on the page, not just images
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KartikPrabhu
yup! agreed! scratch that whole image fragmentions thing :P
#
KartikPrabhu
note to self: Keep It Simple, Stupid!
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aaronpk
oh I was actually talking about fragmentions for images so that you can link to any image even if the publisher didn't include IDs on their images
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aaronpk
same way fragmentions let anyone link to text without the publisher needing to know about it
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KartikPrabhu
oh I see! eh... so not so stupid :P
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aaronpk
if you wanna get real fancy you could link to a spot in an image by adding the x/y location as a percent to the url
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aaronpk
http://example.com/post/100#&XXXXXXXX@33x50 <-- the image on page /post/100 with URL hash XXXXXXXX at position X=33% Y=50%
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kbs
oh, now that's what I initially thought KartikPrabhu was talking about - and neat idea for implementing it too :-)
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KartikPrabhu
that is what I was talking about :P and then eh got confused :P
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kbs
oh :-)
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ben_thatmusbe2
We'll see how long this lasts
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JonathanNeal
i'll return to this discussion later, it’s getting very experimental
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rascul
++last
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aaronpk
could also add width and height so you can highlight someone's face in a photo
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KartikPrabhu
this is going the media fragments route
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kbs
I guess creating the link gets more funky. Nice blue-sky ideas though, love it
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aaronpk
yeah you'd need browser support to create the link, either natively or an extension, but seems doable
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ben_thatmusbe2
I saw someone say something about fragmention and webmention to do annotations. The fragility of fragmentions could make that a mess if the source gets edited
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kbs
KartikPrabhu: ah, didn't realize this was already being considered - nice
#
KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmusbe2: again that is upto the source editor to take care
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KartikPrabhu
same could be said of id-fragment fragility
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kylewm
you could have a section at the bottom for “comments on older versions”
#
aaronpk
oh nice, yeah the media-frags doc already has this all specced out
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: confirming HWC-Chicago ... ?
#
aaronpk
although I believe it is intended to be used on the URL of the actual resource, like xxx.mp3#t,20
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gRegor`
Yep
#
KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yes. but could be combinedwith frag or fragmention easily
#
KartikPrabhu
gregor`: cool see you there
#
aaronpk
so fragmentions could be used to point to a specific resource within the page, then use all that to point to the thing within the resource
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KartikPrabhu
really thinks we shouldn't be worried about fragility. what happens to links if the post at the URL is deleted?
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ben_thatmusbe2
Yeah Kevin had mentioned they had a spec for media already but it specifically ignored html
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ben_thatmusbe2
Kartikprabhu I think I've come to agree with you on that. Editing of documents is always assumed possible
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ben_thatmusbe2
Just like links disappearing
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ben_thatmusbe2
isn't sure if he lost connection or is actually the only one talking
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rascul
nobody say anything
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rascul
oh well ben_thatmusbe2 probably saw me say that so my plans have been foiled already
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KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmusbe2: yeah. link fragility is always possible wit document edits. Just like having a /tombstone for deleted posts is good practice. Dead/edited fragmentions should be dealt with by the author/authoring software
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ben_thatmusbe2
I'm surprised I haven't lost connection yet
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ben_thatmusbe2
Infamous last words
#
KartikPrabhu
ok travelling to Homebrew Website Club - Chicago
#
KartikPrabhu
will keep thinking about fragmention+annotations
chloeweil, tilgovi, chloeweil_ and lukebrooker joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
@Debloper: @comzeradd @kevinmarks time to make a Firefox add-on. Okay, soon.” #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/459096093838409728)
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aaronpk
indieweb mumbai!
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kylewm
interesting, sandeep’s p-name/e-content is in Markdown… must be rendered clientside
#
aaronpk
no I think he puts e-content around a hidden element that has the markdown source
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kylewm
you’re right
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kylewm
why? :)
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aaronpk
he has a thing about it, I forget
#
aaronpk
seems less than ideal to me
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Loqi
giggles
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kbs
so since there was a binge on complexifying KevinMarks elegant idea :) (and my penchant for parenthetical comments) my silly annotation idea of the day is https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/silly/test.html##when+you+get+it+installed+(and+Mailvelope+is+still+for+crypto+geeks!)
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bret
cool! iwc mumbai! so rad
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aaronpk
kbs: that's crazy
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kbs
I agree :-)
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kbs
(but I can't resist inserting parenthetical comments, so sue me :)
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kylewm
haha, I had to tell IRC to stop allowing close parentheses so it wouldn’t choke on the twtr.io links
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kylewm
although I think I’m missing the point of the parenthetical?
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bret
kbs: thats rad!
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kbs
bret: :-) my procrastinating distraction
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kbs
probably should just poke my nose back
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kbs
kylewm: dunno - just thought that annotations means annotating the text by the commentator (hence - add the annotation as a parenthetical comment to the fragmention)
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aaronpk
oops forgot that there was a tweet version of sandeep's post. really need to add that syndicate button so I can posse after posting
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kylewm
aaronpk: do you find the original and the tweet version and multi-reply to both?
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aaronpk
no I just reply to the canonical, but syndicate my post to twitter with the proper twitter in_reply_to_id set
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kylewm
two different fields in p3k?
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rascul
sandeep.io doesn't break lines properly
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kylewm
yeah i was complaining about that the other day rascul
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kylewm
well subcomplaining about it
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rascul
makes it hard enough for me to read that i'd rather not read it
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kylewm
aaronpk: or do you find the syndicated copy automatically
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kylewm
rascul: that post is really interesting, worth reading
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rascul
ok i pasted it into a text editor so i can read it
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bret
rascul: iirc some browsers dont have the issue on his sitw
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bret
site*
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rascul
that's interesting
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bret
webkit i think works
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aaronpk
kylewm: this is kind of old, but you get the idea: http://aaron.pk/n4Pf1
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rascul
chromium i just tested, it breaks the lines fine
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kylewm
does Chrome not honor word-break: break-all;
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rascul
i dunno
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kbs
I guess FF gets penalized for doing 'the right thing' in this case :-)
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rascul
chromium here wraps the lines and doesn't break the words, which i guess might not be properly in this case
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kylewm
aaronpk: OH! so you would actually reply to the twitter post, and it finds the original from there. my bridgy stuff might have an unfortunate side effect for that!
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aaronpk
that video is just a demo of when I paste in a twitter URL, it swaps it for the canonical URL
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JonathanNeal
okay, i’m back. is there consensus?
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aaronpk
but if I paste in a canonical URL then it looks for a syndicated URL and pulls out the tweet id
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bret
btw your webmention crud still works well aaronpk. had to use it today
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aaronpk
ha cool. it's still accidental
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gRegor`
Hello from Chicago HWC!
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aaronpk
hello! you're 2 hours early ;)
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bret
woo have fun! take notes!
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bret
aaronpk: going to be a tad late, class gets out at 6:30
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aaronpk
bret: ok cool
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: no you're 2 hours late! :P
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aaronpk
aw man
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gRegor`
timezones--
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Loqi
timezones has -2 karma
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bret
what would i be like without time zones? just a single time everywhere
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rascul
zulu time!
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gRegor`
Local blog comments interleaved with webmentions: http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/
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rascul
very interesting the comments thing
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gRegor`
The datetime link for local comments is just an anchor link to that comment. For the webmentions, it's a link to the original source. Thoughts on that?
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aaronpk
seems reasonable
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gRegor`
I thought about having the webmentions read like "Ryan Barrett mentioned t his on snarfed.org" and the text snarfed.org would link to the source permalink. But then I thought that's getting rather verbose.
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rascul
i don't like datetime links linking to something that isn't strictly datetime related, such as a calendar or something
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rascul
because i would never think to click the link or even hover over it for anything else
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gRegor`
Hmm, interesting rascul
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gRegor`
I'm used to blogs / facebook where the timestamp is a permanent link
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rascul
i may be the exception and not the norm
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gRegor`
I think I'll stick with what I have for simplicity, for now.
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aaronpk
gRegor`: agreed about the additional sentence
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aaronpk
I'm trying to keep all that kind of stuff out of my site too
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aaronpk
I made a point of not including any third-person text about the things I publish there. I'm not going to say "Aaron liked a post on..." for example