#indiewebcamp 2014-04-22

2014-04-22 UTC
benwerd joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ they also said that downloading those has ownership issues or something
#
Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/indiewebcamp-nyc linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (webmention)
#
aaronpk oh yeah that makes sense, they can't export the annotations cause medium doesn't actually own that content
#
aaronpk and apparently didn't write it into the TOS to allow them a license to do so
#
benwerd event
#
benwerd er
#
benwerd ignore me.
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu so much for not getting rained on!
#
KevinMarks_ hm, so POSSEing to medium is worth it?
#
KevinMarks_ had no idea ll these stats pages etc existed
#
KartikPrabhu my question for POSSEing is always: do you want that audience?
#
KartikPrabhu I hardly POSSE to facebook for instance
#
rascul facebook is filled with stupid
#
KartikPrabhu stupid is people too!
#
rascul yes
#
KevinMarks_ well apparently some people I know read it
#
rascul yeah some people stuck on it
#
rascul there's some people i have no other way of communicating with it bothers me
#
KevinMarks_ I meant medium
#
KevinMarks_ I don't POSSE to facebook in general as I see it as family + events
#
aaronpk let's start calling them "distribution platforms" instead of "silos" :D
#
KartikPrabhu i like the "silo" word. sounds derogatory in a polite way
starrats joined the channel
#
tantek oops. at least Digg made all comments public domain with CC0 so they could export the comments.
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
@t going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458401038345977856)
#
@IndieCreddit RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458401110357585920)
#
@kevinmarks RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458401227454173184)
#
tantek thanks Benwerd!
#
starrats Question, I'm new to writing code and a friend suggested python, what's a good book to get and read and practice on the computer?
#
@evanpro RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458401557810532352)
#
@ak2webd3 RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458401659790446592)
#
KevinMarks_ starrats: Dive Into Python is quite good, but does assume code thinking to some extent
#
KevinMarks_ this is good: http://www.openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english2e/
benwerd and scor joined the channel
#
starrats thank you KevinMarks
#
rascul oh starrats is here i told him about the indiewebs
#
starrats yes rascul I'm here
#
rascul starrats read up on stuff at http://indiewebcamp.com there's lots of good stuff there
#
rascul i dunno if i told you the web site before now
#
KartikPrabhu the way I learnt python was 1. want to make website 2. learn python through making website :)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/NYC (+161) "add indie event URL" (view diff)
#
starrats ah okay
#
starrats bookmarked all the ones you two gave me
#
tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+161) "add indie event URL" (view diff)
#
tantek thanks benwerd - maybe post an FB POSSE copy too?
#
KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: using flask or web.py or django or what?
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: Django seemed best at the time so that
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/458401038345977856/458401227454173184 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/458401038345977856/458401110357585920 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/indiewebcamp-nyc linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (webmention)
#
benwerd Done!
#
@jensimmons RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458403464645988353)
#
benwerd Although now it's listed me as going, which I am not
#
benwerd (Alas
#
benwerd I'd love to)
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/458401038345977856/876081 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
tantek.com edited /2014/NYC (+97) "/* RSVP */ fb" (view diff)
#
tantek benwerd well switch yourself to a maybe on it
#
tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+99) "RSVP on FB option" (view diff)
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/458401038345977856/458401659790446592 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
benwerd tantek - I can't while I'm the organizer
#
benwerd trying to figure out how to promote you
#
tantek ok
#
benwerd There we go
#
benwerd you might be able to demote me
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/458401038345977856/458401557810532352 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
jet_ joined the channel
#
bret starrats: i found DITP totally out of date, and slightly broken at parts, I found the python tutorial to be a great intro, even if its a bit dry
#
bret starrats: follow that up with the official django tutorial
cnxtrm joined the channel
#
bret starrats: after that, books that have interesting projects would probrably be helpful
#
starrats ah okay bret thanks
#
bret KartikPrabhu: you made your site with django right?
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/458401038345977856/458403464645988353 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
KartikPrabhu bret: yeah
#
rascul hrm i like the flask never got into django much
#
bret KartikPrabhu: do you have any tips on material or helpful resources to get started with that from an indieweb perspective? or flask rascul?
#
KartikPrabhu bret: i think the tutorials I used are all out of date. So i picked up a lot of stuff by trial and error from the docs.
#
rascul i don't think i do right now i'm still learning me this indieweb stuff
#
rascul but i can maybe help out with flask :)
#
rascul flask tutorial is good
#
KartikPrabhu bret: but I don't think I have anything specifically from an indieweb perspective. One suggestion would be to start with a basic website and add simpler things first like "notes" instead of "articles" and buildup from there
snarfed joined the channel
#
kylewm re: python web development, I got a lot out of https://www.udacity.com/course/cs253
#
kylewm it's google appengine centric, but carried over to Flask pretty effortlessly
#
kylewm (it was free when I took it, I didn't realize udacity had gone to a subscription model)
#
@jeremyzilar RT @t: going to the first #IndieWebCamp NYC in six days. #NYC creators & bloggers, join us! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vg5) (twitter.com/_/status/458411648785477632)
snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/458401038345977856/6048572 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/458401038345977856/458411648785477632 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
acegiak snarfed: yes. the I think that's what I'm gonna have to try and work out: how I actually handle fetching that data. So we're thinking that if I recieve a comment and display it on my site I should send a webmention to the post that is the "parent" of mine?
#
Loqi acegiak: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 39 minutes ago: that http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg diagram looks a lot more complicated than any existing real world comment threading UI, so I would punt on that much complexity. Check /multireply for some simpler thoughts/examples.
#
KevinMarks_ django tutorial is very fiddly and complicated
#
rascul that's similar to how i felt awhile back except you have the ability to put words to it
#
KartikPrabhu agrees
#
snarfed
#
KartikPrabhu updated fragmention demo closer to the idea: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html :)
#
JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: couldn't test it on my mobile device.
#
KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: still using mouseup... sorry. I should fix it though a bit out of my expertise
#
JonathanNeal touchend
#
kylewm snarfed: are we on the same page about instagram author urls? like if you open ID 703876341980610724_13330911, that's an example of a post that has instagram.com/iamkulap as the author[url]
#
KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: good to know! will try to fix asap
#
snarfed kylewm: got it. we definitely look for and extract the website field for users who sign up, and i think for all users, but instagram may not always provide it in all api responses
#
kylewm ok that sounds right
gRegor` joined the channel
#
@Ashley_Says Photo: @hardtimesseries #beensobroke #indiefilm #webseries #indieweb #brooklyn #brokelyn #support http://ashleyally.tumblr.com/post/83474421706/hardtimesseries-beensobroke-indiefilm#_=_ (twitter.com/_/status/458429091516260352)
#
KartikPrabhu hastag spam?
#
@Docket32357 RT @Ashley_Says: Photo: @hardtimesseries #beensobroke #indiefilm #webseries #indieweb #brooklyn #brokelyn #support http://ashleyally.tumblr.com/post/83474421706/hardtimesseries-beensobroke-indiefilm#_=_ (twitter.com/_/status/458435281650479104)
j12t, smus, snarfed and scor joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/458401038345977856/759720 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
jacus joined the channel
#
JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: that’s looking cool. Maybe it can generate a hyperlink looking thing in front of the text that you can click for the fragmention.
#
KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: yeah that is the plan :)
fmarier joined the channel
#
JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: instead of text it would be a hyperlink symbol.
#
JonathanNeal s/would/could
#
Loqi JonathanNeal meant to say: KartikPrabhu: instead of text it could be a hyperlink symbol.
tantek and snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/bretolius/451059108741787648/14360603 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth (webmention)
#
Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/458401038345977856/14840267 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
#
Loqi [mention] http://dougmckown.com/2014/04/16/why-im-quitting-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
#
Loqi [mention] http://dougmckown.com/2014/04/16/why-im-quitting-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
#
Loqi [mention] http://dougmckown.com/2014/04/16/why-im-quitting-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/why (webmention)
#
tantek in case anyone needs to resize their image to 128x128: http://www.webresizer.com/resizer/
#
brian.behlendorf.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+305) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
#
tantek boom
#
tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+0) "sort, update counts" (view diff)
pfenwick and snarfed joined the channel
#
@curiousjohn #Fragmentions: linking to any text on the Web: https://medium.com/p/41ef2be9953f #indieweb #annotation (twitter.com/_/status/458484497491959808)
#
curiousjohn ohhh, nice bot! :-)
pauloppenheim and markmhendrickson joined the channel
#
tantek nice Loqi :)
#
Loqi dude
cweiske and arcatan joined the channel
#
curiousjohn ohhhhh, sorry! hehe, nice Loqi. :-)
LauraJ joined the channel
#
@kevinmarks "@daveg: @kevinmarks @hc http://t.co/8mZLKyXRAn" like the #indiewebcamp discussion about embedding as images (twitter.com/_/status/458500199615180801)
#
@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: "@daveg: @kevinmarks @hc http://t.co/8mZLKyXRAn" like the #indiewebcamp discussion about embedding as images (twitter.com/_/status/458500262412693504)
#
@hybridjesus RT @kevinmarks: "@daveg: @kevinmarks @hc http://t.co/8mZLKyXRAn" like the #indiewebcamp discussion about embedding as images (twitter.com/_/status/458501136522440704)
tantek, friedcell, eschnou and adactio joined the channel
#
Loqi adactio: KevinMarks_ left you a message 4 days, 8 hours ago: your justify every pixel link should be http://www.digital-web.com/articles/joshua_davis/##justify+every+pixel not http://www.digital-web.com/articles/joshua_davis/##justify-every-pixel
#
Loqi adactio: KartikPrabhu left you a message 4 days, 5 hours ago: your webmention here - http://kartikprabhu.com/article/blogging-dead#response-37 was hard to get right! the lack of p-author, u-url made me reconsider a lot of safe defaults in my code!
#
cweiske KartikPrabhu, you don't seem to have a rss/atom feed. Is that right?
#
KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/11/bloggings-not-dead-its-becoming-like.html previously on the death of blogs
pfenwick, starrats, barnabywalters and kbs joined the channel
#
kbs barnabywalters: are you aware of any services/etc that help manage device specific pgp keys for one person conveniently? eg: enable cross-signing, and key lookups for senders [so they can create messages for all the receiver's devices]
#
kbs context is http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp#Private.2C_Transient.2C_Async_Messaging - if that helps any...
#
barnabywalters kbs: I don’t know of any — I’m more of a PGP user/casual experimenter than expert
#
barnabywalters bnvk might know more
#
kbs okay, I'll check with him, thanks
erikmaarten, ttepasse, starrats, pfenwick1, eschnou, pasevin and melvster joined the channel
#
Loqi [@kevinmarks] @Hadrien see http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention for discussion. #* may be better and more valid
#
Loqi or as id's can't have spaces, any # with whitespace? (http://twtr.io/kWC1m4KrYG)
scor and kbs joined the channel
#
tommorris.org edited /site-deaths (+148) "/* 2014 */ Editorially" (view diff)
cnxtrm, glennjones, pasevin and eschnou joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu cweiske: I do have an rss/atom feed! linked to right at the bottom of very page. :)
#
cweiske could you put a <link> element in your html head?
#
cweiske otherwise feed readers cannot autodetect it
#
KartikPrabhu wait! really? I thought a rel=alternate anywhere should work. Feedly detects it
#
cweiske tt-rss did not
#
KartikPrabhu strange...
#
cweiske maybe tt-rss does not look in <a> links
#
cweiske which would then be a bug
#
KartikPrabhu yeah! does a direct link work: http://kartikprabhu.com/rss ?
#
KartikPrabhu simialr for /atom
#
KartikPrabhu just checked my markup. apart for being on a <a> at the bottom in source order it looks fine
#
KartikPrabhu also good morning #indiewebcamp
#
cweiske HTTP Code: 500
#
cweiske ohn
#
cweiske problem with tt-rss
#
KartikPrabhu oopsies!
#
KartikPrabhu ;)
brianloveswords and cnxtrm joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu cweiske: is the error also on /atom?
Jihaisse, melvster, chloeweil, bnvk, glennjones and tahnok joined the channel
#
@GossipExMachina Gogs: self-hosted @github-lookalike https://github.com/gogits/gogs Vote with your feet! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/458607138496315393)
jedahan and gRegor` joined the channel
#
@jkphl Seriously disgusted by that enduring, destructive, one-dimensional #indieweb mud-wrestling out there. WTF is so hard about pulling together? (twitter.com/_/status/458609481484472320)
#
ben_thatmustbeme good morning all
#
KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: morning!
#
@decentcamp RT @jkphl: Seriously disgusted by that enduring, destructive, one-dimensional #indieweb mud-wrestling out there. WTF is so hard about pulli… (twitter.com/_/status/458612263340228609)
#
gRegor` Hmm, what's that about?
#
gRegor` (that tweet)
#
@bastianallgeier RT @jkphl: Seriously disgusted by that enduring, destructive, one-dimensional #indieweb mud-wrestling out there. WTF is so hard about pulli… (twitter.com/_/status/458612978066391041)
#
barnabywalters gRegor`: maybe this https://twitter.com/aral/status/458243499289481216
#
@aral @haxor Hey Brett, thanks for sharing your thoughts on @dsearls’s post. I wrote up a short reply at: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2014/04/20/its-indie-time/comment-page-1/#comment-325633 (twitter.com/_/status/458243499289481216)
#
KartikPrabhu Was just about to paste that link...
mwunsch joined the channel
#
gRegor` Hmm. Yikes
#
KartikPrabhu did aral balkan just explode on tantek or is that bad threading by Twitter?
#
mwunsch Hello, I plan on attending the NYC indie web camp, but my website is down right now (...)
#
mwunsch How can I make sure the Times will let me in?
#
barnabywalters mwunsch: you could ask to be someone’s apprentice, and have them add you to the guest list
#
gRegor` It looks like he did to me.
#
barnabywalters or, if your site is only temporarily down, then make it go up again :)
#
KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yeah can't find evidence to the contrary
#
@jkphl I'm about beginning to disregard the current #indieweb front-line protagonists as valid scene-setters. Next ones please. +@bastianallgeier (twitter.com/_/status/458617187712790528)
#
@jkphl @localherodotbiz Agreed. However, the #indieweb is not a sect, and I don't see any point in a qualification criteria whatsoever +@adactio @t (twitter.com/_/status/458620196228325376)
#
mwunsch barnabywalters: that's probably more likely. in the mean time, i added myself on Lanyrd.
_6a68, KartikPrabhu and pfenwick joined the channel
#
cweiske KartikPrabhu, I get a 500 on http://kartikprabhu.com/atom
#
cweiske and on /rss
#
KartikPrabhu weird! sorry! about that let me check
chloeweil_ joined the channel
#
cweiske KartikPrabhu, do you have a spec that allows <a rel="alternate"> for feed autodiscovery?
#
cweiske I didn't find any
kbs joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu cweiske: I thought rel=alternate is all that matters. No idea about spec.
#
cweiske even the html5 people say <link> is to be used
#
cweiske http://blog.whatwg.org/feed-autodiscovery
#
cweiske http://www.rssboard.org/rss-autodiscovery
#
KartikPrabhu cweiske: feeds are back up.
#
cweiske thanks. working.
#
KartikPrabhu cweiske: the whatwg blog post seems to be more about rel=feed and not link vs a
#
kbs fwiw, the microformats2 parsing algorithm atleast, wants to treat all rel tags uniformly, whether they occur in a <link> or <a> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
#
KartikPrabhu in fact I don't see any reason to restrict to link. why not use any rel="alternate feed"?
#
KartikPrabhu kbs: true!
#
cweiske yes. unfortunately the original link (diveintomark) is down
#
cweiske the whatwg page cites the original
#
cweiske using <link>
#
@cedricziel @jkphl @localherodotbiz @bastianallgeier erm... what's indieweb? (twitter.com/_/status/458626383804399616)
#
KartikPrabhu cweiske: that might have been the original algorithm. But i don't see any need to restrict to link.
#
cweiske you don't have to. but if you care about compatibility, you have to use <link>
#
KartikPrabhu hmmm. I don't care enough to have duplicated code ;)
#
KartikPrabhu having a separate feed page gives me enough annoyances like what happened a while ago with 500 errors
#
cweiske how is the 500 different from a missing h-entry class in your html?
#
cweiske who notes this?
#
cweiske even less people
#
cweiske s/notes/notices/
#
KartikPrabhu the problem was that i changed "labels" to "tags" in my post object. I changed every thing in the templates except for the feed code
#
@jkphl @cedricziel Yep, exactly. That's the question. ;) [To be serious: Head over to http://indiewebcamp.com >] +@localherodotbiz @bastianallgeier (twitter.com/_/status/458627303010865154)
#
KartikPrabhu It is easier for me to maintain if everything happens in one place
#
@jkphl @cedricziel to get an impression of *some* possible #indieweb ideas & approaches. However, I don't > +@localherodotbiz @bastianallgeier (twitter.com/_/status/458627951353810945)
#
KartikPrabhu wow! a nice exercise in missing the point! ^^
#
KartikPrabhu does the indiewebcamp homepage need more work?
#
@jkphl @cedricziel ;P Well, you didn't miss nothing so far. This is still the #indieweb movie titles, w/ the > @localherodotbiz @bastianallgeier (twitter.com/_/status/458629885422882816)
#
aaronpk kbs: you've seen keybase.io I assume?
#
kbs aaronpk: yep
#
kbs My thought was mostly that for users with their own domains, it seems unnecessary
benwerd joined the channel
#
kbs has also implemented somethnig similar previously - https://github.com/kbsriram/pgpauth
benwerd_ joined the channel
#
kbs https://pgpauth.appspot.com/api.html for details about that little project....
npdoty joined the channel
#
aaronpk kbs: ok cool yeah, I haven't done much experimenting with pgp other than trying to set it up once and failing then using keybase
#
kbs heh
#
kbs I've started on some small tool here as well
#
kbs at least to make key-generation easier for indieweb. now working through handling device-specific keys
#
kbs be happy to elaborate on this stuff if interested :)
#
kbs well, should probably say at least for people who own their own domains I guess - looking at the soap opera on twitter :/
#
aaronpk heh
#
bret soap opera?
iangreenleaf joined the channel
#
aaronpk check the scrollback, there's a few there. or search twitter for indieweb
snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronpk the irony of people saying "time for some real action" on twitter when they have their own website is astounding
#
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: that whole conversation is an excercise in missing the point
#
KartikPrabhu also: #hipster: a blanket term for everyone you dislike! (http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/hipster-blanket-term)
#
aaronpk hahaha
#
bret this -> 'the irony of people saying "time for some real action" on twitter'
#
KartikPrabhu and so much bickering about 'names' and 'what it should be called'!
#
KartikPrabhu oh well back to "real action" ;)
melvster joined the channel
#
bret rereads http://www.onebigfluke.com/2012/07/focusing-on-positives-why-i-have-my-own.html before writing more about this
#
ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that was pretty silly the drama on twitter
#
barnabywalters twitter is an effective platform for drama
#
kbs it's predictable at least :) if you poke anyone on things they feel passionately about, it's bound to result in some drama - I guess a different part of the brain engages
#
bret barnabywalters, does your posting interface work as a micropub client?
#
bret sorry if I already asked you this, I forgot!
#
barnabywalters bret: for notes, yes it does!
#
barnabywalters my proto feed reader also does
#
barnabywalters allowing the posting of inline replies
#
bret do I just log in to use it?
#
barnabywalters bret: yep - if you go to http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/new
#
barnabywalters you should see a little box explaining what it is
#
barnabywalters then log in and it should just work
#
Loqi agreed.
#
barnabywalters do you have a micropub server?
#
bret :( 500 err
#
barnabywalters thanks Loqi
#
Loqi you're welcome
#
bret barnabywalters, in development
#
barnabywalters bret: 500 error? where?
#
bret its going to be able to create new files in a github repo
#
bret barnabywalters when trying to log in
#
barnabywalters bret: nice! okay, attempting replication and debugging
#
bret http://bret.io
#
barnabywalters takk
#
bret could be due to something on my end
#
barnabywalters bret: maybe try logging into http://ownyourgram.com
#
barnabywalters see, there are some issues: http://ownyourgram.com/auth/start?me=bret.io&redirect_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fownyourgram.com%2Findieauth
#
bret got it, ill fix that
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: nice work making ownyourgram such a great micropub debugger!
#
aaronpk yay! that's the idea! :)
#
Loqi does a happy dance!
#
barnabywalters I’ll have to make taproot return some more intelligent errors
tantek joined the channel
#
bret i'
#
bret i'll get ownyourgram working first, then ill try the taproot interface
melvster and paulcp joined the channel
#
bret the micropub endpoint seems like a good place to send webmentions from
#
bret which would be oh so rad to have
#
bret im sick of doing them by hand
#
aaronpk heh
#
aaronpk you mean since your site is static?
#
bret yeah
#
bret also context parsing
#
bret That would bring me to auto webmentions, reply context in addition to nearly full webmention display support on a mostly static site
#
barnabywalters bret: that’s great!
#
bret ohhhh, just thought of something, could webmention.io become a micropub client that sends in parsed webmention data?
#
barnabywalters bret: what do you mean?
#
bret that way I could move away from javascript displays
snarfed and j12t joined the channel
#
bret webmention is rad, but it is only the ping. webmention.io provides an api to get some of that data easily, but it doesnt work with a micropub endpoint in any way
#
barnabywalters bret: micropub is for you to create new posts on your site, rather than adding external responses to them
#
bret what if I want to publish new replies to my site?
#
bret static site*
#
@jon_neal @stevefaulkner @WHATWG true, can’t be everywhere, and #indieweb is where all the cool fragmentions talk is happening, which needs a11y love (twitter.com/_/status/458645431979757568)
#
bret if the micropub endpoint can get data into a static site, then it might also be a convient endpoint for actually getting reply data into the site as well
#
bret let me get the new post thing working first, then it will be more clear
#
tantek JonathanNeal: good to have you here too :)
#
aaronpk brb getting coffee
#
JonathanNeal :D
#
bret barnabywalters maybe the endpoint would also just double as a webmention client in addition to a micropub endpoint, not really sure what makes the most sense yet
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: I'm parsing you badly here http://kylewm.com/share/2014/04/22/1 ... your note doesn't have a p-name, so it falls back on the whole h-entry
#
rascul i still read it fragmentation instead of fragmention
#
rascul but at least now i understand my issue and have resolved to do nothing about it
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: notes need not have a p-name thgouh
#
kylewm rascul: wouldn't it be ironic if the conversation got broken up by other people making that same mistake
#
rascul hehe
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: I don't know how to handle those correctly either :( since h-as-note is not supposed to be mf2. Maybe check that p-name is not same as e-content
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: notes should have an explicit p-name
npdoty joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu they should?!
#
kylewm mf2py will give them a 'name' property whether you set it or not
#
barnabywalters really, all non-implied microformats should have an explicit p-name
#
tantek barnabywalters: what does that mean?
#
kylewm i still need to add one to my h-feed
#
barnabywalters microformats markup which makes extensive use of implied properties shouldn’t have explicit p-name
#
kylewm (my point about mf2py, was that you might as well set it to what you want it to be since mf2 parser will give you one that is probably not what you want)
#
barnabywalters e.g. <span class=“h-card”>Barnaby</span>
#
tantek barnabywalters: I have no idea how to debate that without a specific example
#
KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: oh like that yes! name is implied by parsers
#
tantek explicit p-name is never a bad thing right?
#
tantek so why "shouldn't have"?
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
tantek need to see an example that demonstrates that assertion
#
barnabywalters tantek: it’s a bad thing if I have to type <a class=“h-card” href=“http://tantek.com”><span class=“p-name”>Tantek</span></a>
#
tantek but you don't have to - that's why I'm confused by your wording
#
tantek because you also don't not have to
#
KartikPrabhu I think we're all saying the same thing :)
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: not sure because I don't understand what is being said
#
tantek barnabywalters: also you can collapse that markup to:
#
tantek <a class=“h-card” href=“http://tantek.com”><span>Tantek</span></a>
#
tantek if the span is there for some styling hook reason
#
tantek otherwise even further
#
barnabywalters tantek: I don’t really understand what point you’re trying to make
#
tantek <a class=“h-card” href=“http://tantek.com”>Tantek</a> - as demonstrated by the second example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2
#
tantek barnabywalters: I'm trying to understand *your* point
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: I don't have an explicit p-name on notes because I write them as plain text and don't know a good way to assign names yet.
#
kylewm barnabywalters: are you saying "set an explicit p-name property unless the implied value is the one you want"?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu, kylewm - convention for notes is name==content
#
barnabywalters kylewm: yes, that is correct
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah that is what I'm doing
#
tantek well then you do have an explicit p-name
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: no like literally <div class="p-name e-content">
#
KartikPrabhu oh! hmm well parsers do that anyway so I don't need to
#
tantek KartikPrabhu, kylewm this is implied by this documentation: http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Display which could be more explicit
#
kylewm look at http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkartikprabhu.com%2Fnotes%2Fhipster-blanket-term
#
KartikPrabhu that is the link I was looking for
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: oh I see!
#
barnabywalters my point is that adding an explicit p-name to note h-entries is a good thing
#
barnabywalters because it makes it easier for consumers to figure out if they should show the name separately from the content or not
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: updated! :)
#
tantek barnabywalters: ah ok. yes, I think this may be because the /note page is a bit older and needs updating to include the newer conventions of sections like "How to markup" and "why" etc.
#
tantek as we do for newer pages
starrats joined the channel
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: thanks! my reshare looks much better now :)
#
kylewm oh but you don't display mentions on notes yet right?
#
KartikPrabhu not yet! :( something I am thinking of fixing somehow!
#
Loqi *sniff*
#
KartikPrabhu the problem is that "responses" are associated to my articles table! :|
#
KartikPrabhu either I switch overnight to files somehow or hack my db
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: I associate mentions with URLs
#
kylewm hehe, responses table can have more than one foreign key column. that's not much of a hack
#
barnabywalters because really the URL is the ID
#
KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: ooh! why didn't i think of that!! specially since I have already started storing fragmentions :P (even though I don't use those)
#
barnabywalters I just use resolved, relative URL paths (i.e. no fragment, query string) rather than absolute ones
#
KartikPrabhu will do that... great idea! thanks barnabywalters!
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: not a problem! the process is documented further here if it’s of interest: http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot#Mentions
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: i bet that like me, you started implementing comments traditionally (i.e. as content on YOUR site and not syndicated foreign content)
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah! also I had articles before notes so a lot of things are tied to those
adactio joined the channel
#
tantek welcome back adactio :)
#
adactio tantek: Hi there.
#
tantek did Kickstarter tweet on your behalf?
#
tantek https://twitter.com/adactio/status/457857261336297472
#
Loqi [@adactio] Backing @BrianSuda’s fantastic LatLon Notebooks project on Kickstarter in an attempt to hit the final stretch goal.
#
adactio No, I wrote that.
#
tantek was wondering about the context of https://twitter.com/adactio/status/458002626274398209
#
Loqi [@adactio] Unintentionally spamming your friends on Twitter?
#
adactio I don’t grant Twitter-write permissions to any apps e.g. Kickstarter.
#
adactio Did I sound like a bot?
#
tantek not like a bot, no, just decently crafted microcopy that could possibly be semi-automatic
#
adactio Some other people had their Twitter accounts hijacked and were spamming links.
#
adactio Hence, the link to that blog post.
#
adactio tantek: I have to say, I thought this came across as pretty self-rightous (though I know it wasn’t intended to be): https://twitter.com/t/status/458377124005826560
#
Loqi [@t] @dsearls @aral Want to be "indie"?
#
tantek yes I have to remember to leave room for and include the ;) in such posts. ;)
#
adactio Might be worth clarifying that with Aral?
#
tantek it was a bit of poking fun. as in, here's this simple thing, just posting text notes. if you can't even do that, how can we believe any grandiose plans announced and hyped all over the blogs and interviews?
#
tantek like, show us you can jog before claiming you've figured out how to teach everyone to parkour tall buildings
#
adactio Belittling the way that others—who are your *allies*—are going about their work is not helpful. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
#
adactio This isn't the first time I've seen allies of the Indie Web put off by the standoff-ish attitude.
#
tantek to play counter-advocate, what is the downside of belittling hype?
#
adactio You make enemies of your allies.
#
tantek are they actually allies if all they do is tweet (or email) ?
#
tantek or just rowdy fans?
#
adactio tantek: do you honestly see Aral's work that way?
#
tantek what is the downside of annoying those who hype first and never ship?
#
tantek adactio, you tell me, how many jargon terms has Aral hyped vs. what has he shipped?
#
tantek measure the data
#
adactio You are not encouraging them to ship. You are discouraging them from doing anything.
#
tantek how can you discourage those who show no signs of *doing*?
#
tantek this is an encourage to ship *something* "Tweet from your own domain."
#
adactio Have you ever considered that other people might have different priorities from you ...and that's okay? e.g. Just because someone doesn't tweet from their own website (like me or Aral) doesn't make them the antichrist.
#
adactio Have some empathy.
#
adactio Try to see the motivation behind the hype.
#
tantek different priorities I understand. yet inability to accomplish even simple things tends to undercut any credibility of grand visions
#
tantek adactio, and don't compare yourself. you do ship. regularly.
#
tantek you shipped an integrated stream on your home page
#
tantek you shipped webmention receiving and display, including a handy submission form!
#
tantek you shipped owning your linkblog posts!
#
tantek that shows a pattern of building on work
#
adactio I'm getting a bit sick of this attitude. When Marc Thiel—an events organiser—wanted to provide his talents and skills to boost the Indie web movement by organising an event, I suggested he raise that here in IRC. He got a really frosty reception because he wasn't (yet) doing things from his own website. So he was really put off the whole "indie web" label, and frankly I don't blame him.
#
adactio Marc is a friend of the Indie Web.
#
adactio Aral is a friend of the Indie Web.
#
tantek compare that with what - a series of hyped hashtags, first "indiedata", now "indietech" ? those smell of architecture astronaut speak to me http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html
#
adactio Seeing Marc and Aral treated as though they were enemies just because they don't *yet* fulfil some arbitrary entry requirements makes want to have no part in hanging out in this club's treehouse.
#
adactio The Indie Web movement is coming across as petulant and exclusionary.
#
tantek adactio - perhaps the missing context here is how much such hype noise drowned out all productive conversations in the mid 2000s to 2010 or so.
#
adactio And I don't want the Indie Web movement to be a sausage fest for neckbeards.
#
tantek it's not. as Chloe demonstrated. http://chloeweil.com/blog/hipster she shipped.
#
adactio tantek, I understand the reason for having some kind of barrier to entry e.g. having your own website. It keeps people out who are only interested in talking, not doing. But it has been taken too far.
#
adactio Marc is doing.
#
adactio Aral is doing.
#
tantek I have 1000% more respect for Chloe than organizing conferences or making up new jargon and one page sites.
#
adactio Just because the *way* they're doing it doesn't fit your prescribed way, doesn't mean what they're doing isn't valid.
#
tantek adactio, what is the doing?
#
tantek if it's just conferences and blogging, is that much more than just marketing?
#
tantek what is actually being *created*? being *built*? being *shared* in a way that can be *reused* by others?
#
adactio tantek, you don't speak for me. You do speak for the Indie Web movement. While you're displaying this attitude (and by extension, so is the Indie Web movement), I don't want to be represented as part of that movement.
#
tantek which attitude? asking such questions?
#
adactio An event is being created: http://decentralizecamp.com/
#
tantek right - and we've put in on the list of indieweb related events! http://indiewebcamp.com/events
#
adactio A phone is being created. Yes, it's hugely ambitious. Maybe it won't work. But we shouldn't belittle the attempt.
#
tantek adactio, remember the Techcrunch tablet?
#
tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JooJoo
#
adactio tantek, it's not about the technology. It's about the motivation. Even if you think that Aral's phone idea isn't viable, I still think he should be supported. You seem to be implying that it's all about the hype for him.
#
adactio It. Is. Not.
#
j12t Let me chime in here for a sec. Can I suggest we all try to articulate our values, and see whether we can “merge” them? Would be great if there was some indie manifest that wasn’t just Aral’s.
#
tantek j12t - there is: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles
#
adactio He's selling a family house to bootstrap what he's doing. That's not hype.
#
tantek adactio - that part I feel bad about
#
tantek I don't want to see Aral burn a lot of his own personal resources on a venture that is likely to end up like the Techcrunch tablet
#
tantek because then he'll be even MORE bitter
#
j12t Yep, those are one version, and Aral’s manifesto draft are another. I’d contribute http://personal-clouds.org/logo/ (ignore the logo)
#
tantek at EVERYONE
#
j12t Can we merge them?
#
tantek j12t - nice principles!
#
j12t I would love to see something that everybody agrees is “the indie way” or some such thing
#
j12t there can be sub-movements underneath
#
j12t like “for a website, that means”, and “for a phone, that means”
#
tantek adactio - there is a certain level of skepticism because the past 10 years are littered with promises of federated-this, open-that, and that's why we ask these hard questions
#
tantek j12t - those principles are very similar to what we have on the indiewebcamp.com home page
#
j12t I know! And they overlap quite a bit with Aral’s, too.
#
adactio When skepticism turns to cynicism and that cynicism results in good people being belittled ...well, it's just not a good situation.
#
j12t So there may be a there there?
#
tantek and the sad part of all those promises of federated-this, open-that is that they wasted so many brain cycles of some of the best minds
#
tantek so it's important to have questions, principles, and metrics to separate the usable and useful from the hype
#
adactio tantek: then you need to explain the reasoning behind your criticism because without that explanation it just comes across as mean-spirited and petty (which I know you don't intend).
#
j12t tantek: I think adactio more raises a style issue than a substance issue, is that right?
#
adactio tantek: (and I mean explain it to Aral)
#
tantek adactio - indeed I can see that - the kind of subtlety that is never conveyed in tweets
#
adactio j12t: yes, it's about the first impression we're giving people.
#
j12t I’m all in favor of sending the message “we are grown-up, we know what we are doing, we have our disagreements, but are respectful (and sometimes tough) with each other"
#
tantek adactio - every talk by Amber Case in the past 3 months has been explaining this
#
tantek this is part of the problem
#
adactio Marc comes in here. Says "I want to help put on an event!". First thing he gets told isn't "Great! Let's do this!". It's "Where's your website. Prove yourself. Pass our tests."
#
bret "good point, lets work on that!
#
tantek adactio - I get that the "prove yourself" approach will turn off some number of people. Others will rise to the challenge.
#
adactio tantek: If you're going to take the time to belittle someone's work on Twitter, you can take the time to explain the reasoning behind it. (hint: Twitter is probably not the place for it)
#
tantek that's fair
#
tantek adactio - I think all the trademark stuff turned off alot of folks in the community (you know, an actual community, like here in #indiewebcamp, with 90+ people)
#
tantek so there's not a lot of patience with other aspects
#
tantek that being said, yes, we can do better
#
adactio tantek: Yes, and I wrote Aral an email asking what's with the trademark. He said, yeah, he was going to ditch that.
#
tantek also, there's an active community of people contributing freely to the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:RecentChanges
#
tantek and re: honey vs. vinnegar - a lot of us have kindly and repeatedly asked Aral over the 1.5 years that he's shown an interest in indieweb to show up here in #indiewebcamp, and please jump in and contribute to the wiki too.
#
adactio I just get so dispirited when I see people assume the worst motivations by default. "Someone talking about building something but they haven't yet shipped? All hype! Someone has put a trademark on something? They must be evil!"
#
tantek that is, please come be an active part of the community
#
bret I mean, any project that aligns with the principals are apart of the indieweb classification no?
#
adactio Assuming better motivations by default may take more work, but it's worth it.
#
bret even if they dont actively participate in the community
#
tantek and he's pretty much ignored everyone else and instead gone off and made up new terms, new trademarks, and belittled an entire community's work as not user-centric
#
tantek nevermind his Mozilla bashing
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
tantek so I really don't get *what* he is a fan of exactly, except his own terms and blog posts.
#
tantek adactio - better motivations were assumed by default for over a year
#
adactio His priorities might be different. He might not be in this IRC channel because, I don't know ...maybe he's building a phone?
#
tantek many of us have repeatedly personally reached out to Aral to come join the discussion here
#
tantek adactio - he blew discussion long before he supposedly started work on a phone
#
tantek blew *off
#
adactio On the one hand you take someone to task for not shipping. On the other hand you take them to task for not spending their time in this IRC channel. They may well be mutually exclusive. And maybe he chose working and shipping over talking in IRC.
#
tantek adactio - you're missing the timelines
#
bret maybe the best strategey is to avoid comment on the matter unless he seeks feedback?
#
adactio bret: excellent suggestion.
#
bret or he starts making false associations or statements
#
tantek we barely were able to coordinate to make IndieWebCampUK happen last year
#
tantek bret - the blog posts are all full of false statements and exaggerations
#
tantek it got so bad that we had to debunk a bunch of them which basically belittled actual shipping work from this community
#
bret and those were addressed appropriately i feel
#
bret thats a bummer, I didnt like reading those
cnxtrm joined the channel
#
bret hes doing his own thing, trying to build an iphone that is open source and well designed
#
tantek bret, e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup
pasevin joined the channel
#
bret which is only abstracly related to what most people here are working on
#
tantek but reflects the general pattern of his posts
#
tantek I think after that a lot of us here lost interest in debunking Aral's posts
#
tantek because he didn't seem to care or listen
#
bret its because he is doing something totally different than the primary focus here
#
tantek but instead chose to belittle all existing work, and pronounce how all his ideas were going to save the day
#
tantek bret - when you figure out what is actually *doing*, please let me know.
#
tantek what *he is
#
bret ill let aral do that
#
bret ;)
#
tantek at some point the "make fun of existing work and existing players" and "hype the glorious future you envision" gets old
#
tantek adactio, by the measure of Aral's output (blog posts, tweets, new jargon, single-page sites), his priorities appear to be hyping his own ideas. If you see evidence otherwise, I'm very happy to be shown a better side.
#
bret tantek, adactio has a point in that the arguments have a sour taste for people looking in from the outside and dont have much background about indieweb
#
bret i think
#
adactio tantek: Like I said, assuming good motivations by default takes work. Sounds like you’ve got a considerable chip on your shoulder. I’m not saying it’s not warranted, but you can be a better person.
#
tantek bret - "people looking in" - which generation? as in which of /generations ?
#
bret i cringe when I see them too!
#
bret tantek, who knows, possibly future community!
#
adactio tantek: your sour grapes are infecting the way the indie web community is being projected, and perceived by, people outside the community …our allies.
#
tantek adactio, asking for "proof of work" is not sour grapes
#
tantek per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-work_system
#
tantek where the spam in this case is self-serving hype
#
tantek adactio - I am asking you for counter-evidence
#
adactio I have no problem with Aral the person and Tantek the person having a disagreement. I have a huge problem with the Indie Web movement as whole being represented by the same attitude.
#
tantek adactio, do you have a problem with asking for proof of work?
#
adactio tantek: give him a freaking chance. He has a roadmap for what he's doing. It's going to take time.
#
adactio Building a phone is fuckton more complex than tweeting from your own website.
#
adactio Like I said, he has different priorities. And that's okay!
#
tantek adactio, what happened to shipping MVP? and solving simpler problems first?
#
tantek that's not a matter of prioritization, that's how every successful site and product today was originally built
#
tantek of course building a phone is more complex! it took Mozilla 2+ years to do it!
#
icco (Just for a data point as I run to dinner: I definitely agree with what adactio is saying here, but I can't complain given that when I was interested in indieweb, I ended up getting burritos with tantek + others, which inspired me to get more involved, so maybe it's a recent change in culture?)
#
adactio tantek, listen. When you speak about this stuff, you are speaking on behalf of the Indie Web community. I really, really don't like the way it's coming across. I don't want to be represented by this attitude. Ergo, you are turning *me* off the Indie Web community.
#
tantek icco - it's a good point and why we hold the regular in-person Homebrew Website Club meetups
#
tantek a lot of community inclusion works better in person
#
adactio tantek: I know that's not what you intend to do, but that's what's happening.
#
bret adactio indieweb is made up of a lot of different individuals with different priorities, its not just tantekweb, you see that no?
#
adactio bret: I do.
#
tantek adactio - can you be more specific about what is turning you off? is is the "proof of work" requests? something else?
#
adactio bret: but I'm not seeing the disclaimers that say "this is Tantek's opinion."
#
adactio tantek: It's the attitude.
#
bret the best way to rep that is to tell aral that you support his work and the work of indieweb if thats how you feel
#
ben_thatmustbeme sits back, takes a sip of his drink and reads the argument up til now
#
tantek adactio, "it's the attitude" is not helpful. I'm asking for specifics.
#
adactio tantek: It's the default position of "Prove your bona fides!" instead of the defaul position of "Oh, we have common goals. Let's work together" (see also Marc's frosty reception here)
josephboyle joined the channel
#
adactio tantek: Well, that tweet of yours would be one example.
#
tantek adactio, the default position for new folks here is absolutely oh we have common goals, let's work together.
#
adactio tantek: that is NOT how it looks from the outside. Ask Marc.
#
tantek yes, we could have treated Marc better when he first showed up
#
tantek you're right about that
paulcp joined the channel
#
bret whos marc?
#
tantek bret, I don't remember his IRC alias, but he came in asking us to review decentralizecamp
#
adactio bret: Marc Thiel. An events organiser who wanted to organise an Indie Web event.
#
tantek adactio - have you ever been to an IIW?
#
adactio bret: The reason he's organising Decentralize Camp (as opposed to something labelled with Indie Web) is in part because of the attitude he encounted here (i.e. "Where's your website then?")
#
tantek adactio, he came here with decentralizecamp
#
tantek before there was any interaction
#
tantek once again, timelines
#
adactio tantek: okay, my mistake.
kbs joined the channel
#
adactio nonetheless, he didn't get the warmest of welcomes here.
#
adactio Like I said, default attitudes
#
adactio default assumptions of motivations ...they can make such a big difference.
#
ben_thatmustbeme Thats a shame. I sure did. I'm sure lots have
#
bret i blame the moon :p
#
tantek that being said, he did go work hard on decentralizecamp, which clearly showed progress (seemingly taking some of the feedback he got here), and now it's promoted right there on the indieweb events page
#
ben_thatmustbeme bret: damned moon, its mad at us for landing on it all those years ago
#
tantek in fact, we've told folks to go check out decentralizecamp in May rather than organize a competing indiewebcamp
#
tantek adactio, seems like we haven't have a perfect (100%) record of welcoming new folks. however I do think we have a pretty good record. I'll let new people here speak for themselves.
#
ben_thatmustbeme raises his hand!
#
adactio https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/458609481484472320
#
@jkphl Seriously disgusted by that enduring, destructive, one-dimensional #indieweb mud-wrestling out there. WTF is so hard about pulling together? (twitter.com/_/status/458609481484472320)
#
bret i try to be overly nice to people when they show up here and I have time
#
tantek.com edited /principles (+147) "/* Key Principles */ selfdogfood is also a form of proof of work (wikipedia link)" (view diff)
#
tantek adactio - never seen jkphl here - that seems like armchair twitter commentary
#
tantek which basically evaporates after two weeks
#
adactio Oh for crying out loud!
#
tantek like the winer rss drama tweets
#
tantek no seriously, you're going to take random twitter rants seriously?
#
adactio tantek: that's a great default assumption to make about someone's motivations: they must be an armchair commentator. Sheesh! :-/
#
tantek where's the filter? no one has time to pay attention to all of that.
#
kbs um. as a 'new people' here, and since you ask - my impression is that you (tantek) have some specific subjects and approaches that you are passionate about, which is great. It also results in a tendency to dismiss or ignore other approaches - c.f. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-15 and around 17:00, as a personal experience
#
tantek adactio, it's a default assumption of the medium of twitter
#
tantek thanks kbs
#
kbs So what I've learnt is generally to get the best out of whatever you have o offer, which is valuable - and keep the rest elsewhere. Just life :)
#
adactio tantek: Well here's his website and here's the first blog post which might change your default assumption about him: http://jkphl.is/articles/of-excellence-and-reputation/
#
tantek kbs - after that discussion I did go ahead and document MediaGoblin and note the selfdogfooding aspect
#
adactio tantek: And for the record, he is not an armchair commentator, he is someone who cares deeply about independent publishing (whether it's called Indie web or not).
#
kbs tantek: yes, though I was thinking rather about what I was discussing :)
#
adactio tantek: And I totally understand where his disgust is coming from. To a certain extent, I share it.
#
adactio Perhaps I too am an armchair commentator.
#
ben_thatmustbeme can't we all just get along?!
#
ben_thatmustbeme :D
#
bret adactio stopit silly
#
tantek kbs - sorry, I missed the specific reference, I'll look again
#
adactio Gotta run.
#
tantek sigh. "cares deeply about independent publishing" -> rants on *Twitter*
#
tantek does anyone else see the irony/contradiction there?
#
tantek is that a turn-off to point that out?
#
bret tantek maybe the issue here is that they DONT understand contradication there?
#
tantek well clearly we (or at least *I*, taking some responsibility here) can be better about more *politely* asking socratic questions
#
ben_thatmustbeme i'm inclined to agree. many see ind. publishing as only important for longer form posts
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: curious, why constrain independent publishing like that?
#
tantek aaronpk, I appear to have found a very strange IRC log permalink bug
#
ben_thatmustbeme I don't. I'm saying others do. That may be where they don't see the contradiction. They don't see the use in controlling their half of a conversation. its something they don't care to control
#
bret i like the confrontation about the contradiction, tbh, but sometimes it just pisses people off because they feel vulnrible or critisized rather than seeing the issue
#
tantek aaronpk, 1. go to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-15/line/1397606426
#
tantek now click on the *next* line after the big text line, e.g. the 17:00 in front of "<kylewm> tantek: Webber definitely does run his own MediaGoblin"
#
tantek that links to: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-15/line/1397606435
#
tantek which then shows the *next* line after that
#
bret isnt being asked to comeback with your own website before talking about websites by tantek like, a check off the bucket list? ;)
#
tantek and kylewm's statement is gone!
#
tantek so I can't permalink to kylewm's statement :/
#
tantek bret - it's a form of a proof of work challenge
#
tantek hence why I linked to that wikipedia page
#
ben_thatmustbeme huh, yeah, those two log lines have the exact same timestamp, so it only links to the second one
#
tantek kbs, oh this was the mobile web app vs. mobile native app discussion - right?
#
bret people tend to really hate feeling dismissed, and challenges/proof of work can be misinterpreted as dismissal, how do we avoid that?
#
tantek still has to document the results of that on the wiki
#
tantek everything both you (kbs) and snarfed said and/or asked in that discussion was *very* useful
#
kbs tantek: yeah
#
kbs and (for my indie* interests anyway) centered around managing data rather than web-sites per-se
#
tantek sorry for making it sound anything otherwise
#
kbs no worries - old enough to have worked with a lot of very passionate people :)
#
tantek bret - to date the only way we've maintained productivity is by some level of dismissal
snarfed joined the channel
#
bret that seems to be the case
#
j12t Perhaps there are some other forms of proof of work?
#
tantek j12t - that's a good space to consider
#
tantek though being *indieweb*, asking about *your own website* seems reasonable
#
tantek but that's also why I started the Homebrew Website Club - for anyone with any level of *passion* about the topic (no website needed, no proof of work, just show up)
#
j12t Personally, I’d be very happy with somebody who is great only at telling the story, but cannot operate his own indie site for now because he isn’t a geek and we haven’t made it easy enough for people like him
#
tantek j12t perhaps you should reach out to Aral ;)
#
j12t I do share a bunch of the concerns you have
#
j12t one of which is that he’s telling Aral’s story, not everybody's
#
tantek j12t - I spoke up (tweeted) because I shared concerns with @haxor
#
tantek j12t yeah - so we can do a better job there right?
#
j12t yes
#
tantek expanding indieweb to incorporate indie storage at home (ala indiebox), and indie management of data (what kbs is alluding to I think)
#
tantek j12t - tell everybody's story is a source of strength for a community, and something that no one individual just telling their own story can do.
#
tantek s/tell/telling
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: j12t - telling everybody's story is a source of strength for a community, and something that no one individual just tellinging their own story can do.
#
j12t I totally agree. This is one challenge we have to solve.
#
tantek s/tellinging/telling
#
tantek lol
#
j12t The “how not to turn off new people” is another.
#
@helloanselm RT @jkphl: Seriously disgusted by that enduring, destructive, one-dimensional #indieweb mud-wrestling out there. WTF is so hard about pulli… (twitter.com/_/status/458672152355799040)
#
tantek j12t - how do we turn off unproductive new people without turning off all the other new people?
#
j12t It hinges on the definition of “unproductive”
#
j12t I’d like it to be broader than just “geeks out really well"
#
tantek j12t - hence proof of work - to evaluate some level of productive or unproductive
#
tantek j12t - we all would. but we're not there yet. and that's ok. per /generations page.
#
tantek we are growing into the next levels of generations
#
tantek but just because we're not already reaching gen 4, don't be discouraged
#
tantek Amber's analysis really helped explain this problem
#
j12t The /generations is a great way of looking at it, but what do you do with people who have a different idea how things evolve? Not welcome them in?
#
tantek have a different idea? encourage them to build it.
#
tantek that's the bar to meet.
#
tantek we should all be measuring each other by what we create and share that's reusable.
#
j12t Right. Now what if their view is “must raise $10m first”
#
tantek not just by IRC, tweets, posts etc.
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
Loqi agreed.
#
j12t This may be a mistaken view
#
j12t or unrealistic, or whatever
#
ben_thatmustbeme I found the most acceptance when I started actually working on my own page. When I was just setting up WP i got questions answered, but when I actually started a project was when I really felt like people started to listen and take an interest. That idea of only really engage with those that are "doing" (however you choose to define it) is pretty good i think. Positive re-enforcement only.
#
tantek j12t - then we say, huh, what's an example of something in the past that required “must raise $10m first” and is successful now?
#
tantek note: Facebook, Twitter, etc. did not “raise $10m first”
#
tantek so we question that assumption
#
tantek by asking for the reasoning behind it
#
j12t let’s pretend that we know if will fail. but can’t it help the cause in the meantime.
#
tantek and if asking questions is seen as "dismissal" - hate to say it, but little chance of them succeeding with anything, with $10m or not
#
tantek so that's the unproductive filter
#
j12t (note I don’t know the answers to any of those, just thinking out aloud)
#
Loqi [mention] http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/04/22/1 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
#
@kyle_wm @GossipExMachina looks like an awesome tool! considered moving the primary to self-host and syndicate to GH? sort of http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/458673554335490048)
#
j12t Maybe the question is this: do we want to intentionally exclude people from the community who we think aren’t going to be successful, or do we want to welcome them? (in some role that indicates that they have not shipped, or there are questions, or …)
#
@patrick_h_lauke @stevefaulkner @jon_neal oh for the love of fuck, what's this newest circle-jerk? (i mean #indieweb, not you two) (twitter.com/_/status/458673885270269952)
#
j12t Of course, there will be different opinions on whether they will or will not be successful.
#
tantek j12t - I give poor odds on a model which has *never* before succeeded - the assumption of “must raise $10m first”
#
tantek and if "never succeeded" is false, provide examples that falsify it
#
kylewm it's funny-sad to read this positive and productive conversation interspersed with snipes from twitter
#
tantek that's not opinion, that's analysis based on experience and data
#
j12t I just made that up as an example.
#
aaronpk omg hold on catching up, was in a meeting for 1.5 hours.
#
tantek kylewm - sometimes it helps to know the people too. like Patrick is an ascerbic Brit who's quite pleasant in person and likes to tweet with that kind of tone in general.
#
ben_thatmustbeme haha, its an interesting read
#
tantek aaronpk - go make some popcorn
#
tantek ;)
#
tantek j12t - totally fine made up example :) and I gave you a concrete way of how we could approach such an assertion
#
icco I'll admit, this thread has been incredibly interesting to watch, and stumbled in at the right time. Yay UK timezone!
#
tantek the approach of asking such questions usually gets to the root of such assumptions, and either confirms them (we learn) or debunks them (the person with the assumption learns, hopefully)
#
j12t The question for me is whether we need to approach such an assertion at all.
#
j12t At least, we = the community.
#
aaronpk (I think the permalink bug is due to two messages coming in the same second)
#
j12t Individually, we can and perhaps should.
#
tantek j12t - it's a defense against unproductive dilution
#
tantek i.e. what has happened to *every other federated/openweb* community/list/meetup/effort
#
j12t I hear you, and that’s important.
#
tantek and those other communities serve a nice unproductivity-sink purpose as well
#
j12t Are there other ways of avoiding unproductive dilution though that don’t turn people off?
#
tantek j12t - suggestions for improvements to anti-dilution efforts welcome!
#
tantek and yes, that's a good question for us to ask regularly
#
tantek to be clear: we are not going to avoid turning *some* people off.
#
aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: "Positive re-enforcement only." <-- great
#
tantek you can't avoid dilution without turning off dilution
#
aaronpk need more popcorn
#
tantek heh
#
ben_thatmustbeme honestly, I don't think its an issue of IF he ships. I honestly don't care. If he ships then we have something to look at and see if its in line with indie web goals. Outside of that I don't really see much reason to include him in indieweb.
#
j12t I don’t know … and I gotta run. But in general, I’m in favor of rolling out the welcome mat to everybody, as long as they don’t insist to keep the cooks from cooking in the kitchen, and the party guests from partying.
#
ben_thatmustbeme that was re: giving some status to those who have not yet shipped
#
aaronpk j12t: yes and I think we've done a pretty good job of that in IRC
#
aaronpk that is part of the reason I didn't like @t's tweet that was missing a ;) face
#
JonathanNeal At what point should fragmentions be presented to W(3C|HATWG)? If we were to see it become a thing?
#
bret tantek, more emoji plz
#
bret ;)
#
KevinMarks_ At the point we've iterated on it enough to be happy ourselves?
#
ben_thatmustbeme the way i see it, we are trying to keep this as a cook-only community. which is one of the things i like most about it
#
tantek aaronpk - fair
#
tantek bret++
#
Loqi bret has 9 karma
#
KevinMarks_ POSSEing to medium seems to have been a good way to spread the idea...
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: a bit about that "cook-only community" here: http://indiewebcamp.com/creator - please feel free to edit/update/add to that
#
KevinMarks_ do the logs include tweets inline? https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-22 has a lot of things that start with @ thta look snarkier than irc
#
KevinMarks_ I think taking fragmentiosn to whatwg next would make sense, though tantek can advise on w3c entry points
#
aaronpk yeah the logs render tweets as from the twitter account rather than from Loqi
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: you saw the logs bug tantek found?
#
KevinMarks_ aha. Makes sense when I know that, reads a bit odd otherwise. Maybe a style distinction? Blockquote?
#
aaronpk yeah, the permalink is to the second, so if there are two messages in the same second one isn't linkable
#
aaronpk wasn't a problem til we had ~90 people here
#
aaronpk KevinMarks_: yeah they're a different color but probably needs more visual distinction
#
ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i figured that was the case
#
tantek kevinmarks - the questions is, what value do you seek from WHATWG or W3C?
#
KevinMarks_ I know i will add #indieweb to a tweet to PESOS it in here
#
KevinMarks_ implementations in browsers
#
KevinMarks_ hence whatwg
#
aaronpk so I'm just catching up on this giant thread
#
tantek KevinMarks: are you just looking to get someone else to write the "spec"?
#
KevinMarks_ people realising they can do this and using it, hence w3c (different, more traditional audience)
#
tantek because now that you've got a prototype, a simple spec would be a next step
#
KartikPrabhu did not mind proof-of-work when he first got here
#
KartikPrabhu sorry just caught up on everything
#
aaronpk yes, proof-of-work is great, and has supported this community growing very well and attracts the type of people who we want to contribute right now
#
aaronpk I don't think anybody is suggesting dropping that part of the community
#
KartikPrabhu fwiw: associating tantek's tweets to all on indiewebcamp is kinda wrong too.
#
KartikPrabhu s/on/of
#
Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: fwiw: associating tantek's tweets to all of indiewebcamp is kinda wrofg too.
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: true!
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: though it seems you are one of the 'public faces' and might need to be more tempered.
#
aaronpk while that is true, people do see it that way
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: apparently :)
#
KevinMarks_ well, clearly I want Ian to write the spec eventually ;)
#
tantek perhaps I should submit my tweets to the #Indiewebcamp review board ;)
#
KartikPrabhu lol! and we can circle-jerk on it?
#
aaronpk I think the problem stems from actively provoking or discouraging people who don't meet the bar, rather than just silently ignoring them.
#
KartikPrabhu thinks a universal sarcasm font is needed in the specs
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: also from personal experience, Socratic questioning method is always met with a lot of animosity.
#
KartikPrabhu even from people 'trained' in critical thinking like scientists.
#
tantek aaronpk - isn't ignoring even worse?
#
tantek a worse form of dismissal?
#
tantek neglect?
#
aaronpk no, because it's not visible
#
ben_thatmustbeme socratic questioning can be frustrating, but its certainly useful
#
aaronpk and they can just ignore the ignoring
#
KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: I enjoy it a lot, because it simplifies the problem down to the essentials, but that is not what people want to do.
#
KevinMarks_ wonders how we'll copy when someone registers the .indie tld
#
tantek is listening to aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, KartikPrabhu
#
tantek goes to get a snack ;)
#
aaronpk goes to get some food too since he hasn't had breakfast yet
#
KartikPrabhu I really get where tantek is coming from too. I had to deal with "all talk no action" people while organising something as simple as a journal club.
#
ben_thatmustbeme Oh I completely get where he is coming from. For a community of creators, i think thats what is needed. Tantek's questioning and nonsense dismissal is great for that.
#
ben_thatmustbeme the issue is outside of the community, some don't understand that.
#
KartikPrabhu agrees
#
ben_thatmustbeme another reason i like the idea of the #indiechat room
#
KartikPrabhu regarding merging principles: the indiewebcamp wiki is a wiki. People should change principles if they see fit!
#
ben_thatmustbeme as far as the community perception of indieweb. I somewhat don't care. I like that I can work here on new standards that could end up being submitted to WHATWG and such. If we want to see community adoption (when standards are ready) we would be working with other creators like wordpress devs to get some new functionality in to wordpress.
#
ben_thatmustbeme other that accepting more creators, I don't really care how consumers view us.
#
KevinMarks_ is reading logs to catch up on debate
tilgovi joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks_ enjoy :)
pasevin and Kopfstein joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ aaronpk: if the permalink bug is caused by 2 messages in the same second use fragmentions
#
KevinMarks_ it's my new Golden Hamemr
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: do you have any ideas on how to link to the second phrase matching the fragmention?
#
KevinMarks_ so @jkphl seems to have a high INdieMark on his site http://jkphl.is
#
KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: I'd say we don't do that. Instead, pick a longer phrase.
#
KartikPrabhu I was trying to give readers a fragmention when they selected a bit of text. demo: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html I was wondering what is a good way to get around multiple matches
#
KevinMarks_ I got pointed at this last night: http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/#general-structure
squeakytoy joined the channel
#
kylewm aaronpk: definitely seems like an issue with two msgs at the same second--just saw the same thing with j12t's http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-22##welcome+mat
#
KevinMarks_ and I see it as a warning
#
ben_thatmustbeme my non-golder hammer method would have been to just use <ts>.1 <ts>.2 for the first second, etc in that second
#
ben_thatmustbeme s/second/2nd/
#
Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: my non-golder hammer method would have been to just use <ts>.1 <ts>.2 for the first 2nd, etc in that 2nd
#
ben_thatmustbeme hey, loqi, i did not say s/second/2nd/g
#
ben_thatmustbeme is said s/second/2nd
#
ben_thatmustbeme no g
#
KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: I'd give them a warning that it's ambiguous while you're constructing it
#
KartikPrabhu hmm ok will play around with it and seek more feedback. Also have to do encoding and stuff
#
KevinMarks_ so as i select "the" it says "58 matches" but "the size" shows one
#
kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: Loqi is :set gdefault
#
Loqi is done
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: I see!
#
KartikPrabhu cool idea!
#
ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: so i have learned
#
KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: in practice, it's pretty easy to get an unambiguous cite
#
gRegor` Caught up on the conversation. Woo-wee.
#
tantek welcome back gRegor` :)
#
KevinMarks_ unless it's a vilanelle or something
#
ben_thatmustbeme i wonder if you could do something to fragmention to select the Nth entry of some text
#
ben_thatmustbeme ##the#1
#
KevinMarks_ ben_thatmustbeme: you could, but it would be extra annoying
#
KevinMarks_ read http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/#general-structure for where that leads
#
KevinMarks_ that's not a terrible spec - its focused on rich media offsets
#
KevinMarks_ but trying to make it work for HTML too (which was one suggestion I got) is broken
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: I agree with keeping it simple. Hence, I'm trying to include it in the constructor rather than in the spec for the URL
#
gRegor` I agree for the most part with adactio's comments. Not to the point of being turned off to the indiewebcamp community like he indicated, but I winced when I saw "Want to be indie? Tweet from your own domain" (sans emoticon)
#
KartikPrabhu I hope the mighty tantek is taking notes ;)
#
gRegor` I have not felt turned off to the community. I have disagreements on some approaches, but I think I'm pretty independent and don't let it get to me.
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: apparently not-so-mighty ;)
#
gRegor` But I can see how some things that get said could be discouraging to outsiders
#
gRegor` I also know tantek and aaronpk aren't "The IndieWebCamp voice," but I do basically consider both the founders and key voices in the direction.
#
tantek gRegor`: yes, that tweet lacked context and thus was unnecessarily harsh
#
KartikPrabhu related note: I hope adactio has not been permanently put off. I found this channel through his blog
#
KevinMarks_ well, Aral saying he got more shit from indieweb than silos was a bit off too - he didn't try to trademark Google Phone or Facebook Phone
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: adactio is pretty passionate about the indieweb, so I doubt it.
#
tantek KevinMarks_: perhaps you can @-reply to that accordingly and point that out?
#
gRegor` I don't think I have any specific suggestions offhand, so I guess I'm not much help at the moment. I will think about it more though.
#
tantek is not going to bother to @-reply to Aral's @-reply deluge
#
KevinMarks_ good idea
#
KartikPrabhu I was going to chime in there... but the whole 'hipster' thing put me off
#
tantek heh
#
tantek so here's the challenge - just see if you can do better than my reply. shouldn't be too hard. ;)
#
KartikPrabhu still does not understand that American word...
#
gRegor` I figured the "hipster" reference was because of the use of "indie"?
#
ben_thatmustbeme i think the whole "ignore the guy unless/until he does something useful" is really the way to go
#
tantek gRegor`: good insight
#
KevinMarks_ goes to found the normcoreweb
#
gRegor` In the realm of music, at least, "indie" and "hipster" can kind of be lumped together, although a bit unfairly.
#
gRegor` There's overlap, heh
#
gRegor` screamowebcamp
#
benwerd I do not wish to attend screamowebcamp, although I also feel that I occasionally have :/
#
KevinMarks_ gRegor`: see https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/423971134434865152
#
@kevinmarks According to Google Play, Indie/Alternative is the biggest category http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/ #indieweb #SoIndieItsMainstream (twitter.com/_/status/423971134434865152)
#
KevinMarks_ I call that as sample bias tho, as Country is invisible in their chart
#
gRegor` For a pretty good/funny history of the word hipster: http://youtu.be/QOHtoxjoZVk
#
KevinMarks_ gah, I get DYAC errors on the Mac now.
#
aaronpk gRegor`: LOL "screamowebcamp"
#
KevinMarks_ Baby Metal web camp
scor joined the channel
#
aaronpk hah didn't see this earlier https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/458643254024888320
#
@stevefaulkner at least when you enter into the @whatwg IRC its pretty easy to work out who your friends are - nobody :-) (twitter.com/_/status/458643254024888320)
paulcp joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ puts Patrick in the "jerk" circle on g+
#
ben_thatmustbeme creates a "jerk" circle
snarfed and grantmacken joined the channel
#
aaronpk lol
#
tantek keeps misreading that with the word order swapped
#
KevinMarks_ interesting - medium has a super-hidden way to format as code https://medium.com/everything-branches-out-until/41ef2be9953f/edit#21a4-9195e8074f6e (though it didn't work for me)
#
aaronpk why does that link make me sign in?
#
KevinMarks_ maybe the "edit"
#
aaronpk ah
#
ben_thatmustbeme i love that his circle-jerk tweet even messed up too as two
#
ben_thatmustbeme normally that irks me, there its fitting
#
KevinMarks_ https://medium.com/everything-branches-out-until/41ef2be9953f#21a4-9195e8074f6e
#
KevinMarks_ I was accidentally in edit mode
#
@t @adactio I failed to append ;) Notes are a building block of every #indieweb post type. *A* good start but ... http://tantek.com/2014/112/t1/notes-building-block-indieweb-post-type (twitter.com/_/status/458692616109195264)
#
tantek oops forgot to get proper tweet review here before posting!
#
tantek submits to the lashings of the channel. ;)
#
KartikPrabhu swings his whip around like a crazy man!
_6a68 joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme pulls out the tazer
#
KevinMarks_ accepts pull requests on his posts
#
KevinMarks_ actually, I think I may have forgotten to POSSE to github
#
tantek Kevinmarks that's interesting. I wonder if there's a use-case here for delayed POSSE
arcatan joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme i could certainly see delayed POSSE as useful in a company branding aspect. Don't want to start syndicating until it has been reviewed. but unless the post is private, its some of just a turtle issue again isn't it?
#
tantek e.g. 1) post note (including replies) on your own site, 2) send PuSH notification, 3) goes to subscribers/followers, including Loqi, who may post it here in #indiewebcamp if it is topical. 4) people in the channel provide feedback like "right on!" or "dude, wtf", 5) edit original post, save, re-PuSH, 6) see new version here in #indiewebcamp, 7) assuming everyone's all "much better!", push some "POSSE" button.
#
tantek "turtle issue"?
#
ben_thatmustbeme couldn't really think of a good way to describe it
eschnou joined the channel
#
tantek I think of it as being progressively public / realtime
#
ben_thatmustbeme its shifting the source, people could just as easily view your site, once its posted, its posted, there isn't really a take-back on that
#
tantek whereby it goes to a more limited audience in "realtime"
#
tantek sure, including people who happen to view it on my site
#
tantek in that window
#
tantek (time window)
#
KevinMarks_ because twitter has no edits
#
ben_thatmustbeme or are watching your site, which by the way, shows up in my google Now page now
#
tantek but the POSSE copies (which typically end up sending device push notifications etc.) only happen after it's been reviewed
#
gRegor` Give 'em time. FB has edits, so Twitter will likely add it. ;)
cnxtrm joined the channel
#
tantek gRegor`: I don't think Twitter's architecture allows for it. All the flows of the data, caching, copying etc.
#
ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i doubt twitter will add it. you can delete and recreate though
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yes. :)
#
tantek looks up where he documented the delete and recreate technique
#
tantek found it: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#Update
#
tantek that's all theoretical AFAIK - I don't know anyone who's implemented it
#
KevinMarks_ https://medium.com/about/df8eac9f4a5e is interesting - the "best writing tool" need to make it easy to post elsewhere
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: did the cntrl+6 thing work?
LauraJ joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ nope. does it work for any of you?
#
ben_thatmustbeme cntrl+6?
#
KartikPrabhu hmmm ok i'll try to post on medium
#
KevinMarks_ on medium for <code>
#
KevinMarks_ I found copying from my own HTML and pasting into medium worked pretty well
jeremyzilar joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ except for code
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: works for me in the editor
#
KartikPrabhu see: https://medium.com/p/1a965c21d142
#
KartikPrabhu only draft
#
KevinMarks_ which browser?
#
KartikPrabhu Firefox
adactio joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ nope, still fails for me
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: strange! even on FF?
#
KevinMarks_ yep.
#
KevinMarks_ I can try on a chromebook, maybe it hates my mac
#
KartikPrabhu saved my draft with the code you wanted
paulcp joined the channel
#
kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+325) "Add related work" (view diff)
#
kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+0) "/* related work */" (view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: Might be a good idea to add the currently used rules to of fragmentions. regarding white-space, URL encoding etc..
#
KartikPrabhu oh hmm they are already there! sorry my bad
#
KevinMarks_ do please edit for clarity
#
KartikPrabhu is there a consensus on white space/capitalisation sensitivity?
#
KevinMarks_ I think flattenign white spaces is agreed
#
KevinMarks_ was less sure about capitalisation
#
JonathanNeal I am interested in knowing what you are all trying to do with medium. Is there a TLDR version?
#
aaronpk if there is it should be on /medium
#
KevinMarks_ I should edit /medium
#
aaronparecki.com created /medium (+19) "Redirected page to [[Medium]]" (view diff)
#
KevinMarks_ Amber spoke there last week, and afterwards we went out for a drink with some medium engineers and talked about how they could be more indieweb friendly
#
KevinMarks_ I POSSEd my fragmentions blogpost to medium, and it has picked up a fair bit of circulation
#
KevinMarks_ which has me thinking about better ways to use it
krendil joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ and ev wrote a post on Medium as writing tool today, which is a possible hook to discuss this
#
aaronpk I have a lot to chime in on that post with regards to micropub!
grantmacken joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ medium being a micropub compliant editor would be great
#
KevinMarks_ hi krendil and grant
#
KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: fragmention.js is currently case-sensitive, right?
#
kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+182) "/* Sensitivity */" (view diff)
#
JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: yes, that was the consensus.
#
JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions#sensitivity
#
KevinMarks_ yep, I just edited the equivalent paragraph on the wiki
#
KevinMarks_ here's a good example for repetition: http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/5796
pasevin joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ linking to any single line "Rage, rage against the dying of the light." is ambiguous
pauloppenheim joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light." isn't
#
Loqi night
#
KartikPrabhu so the policy is to have fragmention generators/makers take care of that and let the fragmention.js type things just look for the matching text
#
KartikPrabhu err... that was half a question
#
tantek KevinMarks, that Ev post on medium is a good example of per paragraph comments
#
tantek sorry, per paragraph comment *threads*(!)
#
tantek super slick UI
#
tantek once again a silo is advancing the state of the art in content editing, publishing, and interaction UX
#
tantek nothing from any blogging platforms about this
#
KevinMarks_ yes, I've been impressed with medium's progress a lot (I hadn't tried it in a year or so)
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: which Ev post?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: https://medium.com/about/df8eac9f4a5e
#
tantek right now I'd say the best silo UX innovation is coming from 1) Facebook, 2) Medium
#
tantek Twitter's latest reskinning is a clumsy attempt to look more FB like
#
KartikPrabhu oh... I plan to invstigate this 'p-level comment' situation
#
tantek alright, time to post something positive about the silos
#
tantek KartikPrabhu++ !
#
Loqi KartikPrabhu has 19 karma
#
KevinMarks_ not quite, twitter is tryting to be less time-dependent, so learning from medium too
#
KevinMarks_ unfortunately they make it more ocnfusing
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: currently working on 'get the fragmention' problem for readers. simple demo: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html
#
aaronpk I was just going to say... that's one of the things that puts me off about aral's whole "indie-*" thing. he's coming down so hard on the silos unnecessarily without a lot to back it up
#
KartikPrabhu lot of UI improvements needed though
#
tantek aaronpk yes, so the proper counter to that is to say what positive things are coming from silos
#
KevinMarks_ https://christiaanconover.com/code/wp-fragmention
#
aaronpk great
#
KevinMarks_ I have been known to rage against silos
#
aaronpk I think there are a lot of *specific* things that some silos have done that are bad.
#
aaronpk but a blanket "silos are evil" statement is not helpful
#
KevinMarks_ http://epeus.blogspot.com/2011/12/facebook-twitter-and-google-plus-shun.html
#
KevinMarks_ not so much evil as derpy http://imgur.com/eWjDz
#
KevinMarks_ :D
#
kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+148) "/* indieweb implementations */" (view diff)
#
tantek ok since I don't have Loqi watching my PuSH notifications yet
#
Loqi woot!
#
tantek no Loqi, no woot
#
tantek puts Loqi back in the box
#
tantek puts Loqi in the corner
#
tantek draft:
#
tantek Easy to bash silos, yet past 10y of content #UX innovations from @Flickr @Facebook @Twitter @Tumblr @Instagram @Medium
#
tantek end-draft
#
tantek aaronpk ^^^
#
aaronpk s/content #UX innovations/#UX innovates are/ ?
#
aaronpk although it's still not unambiguously praise
#
@kevinmarks @cconover excellent, I added it to the http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention page (twitter.com/_/status/458711858619236352)
#
JonathanNeal How do people bash silos?
#
aaronpk JonathanNeal: go read any blog post from aral :P
#
KevinMarks_ or his Who-song playign presentations
#
tantek or our own /silos page
#
tantek ahem
#
aaronpk that's been toned down a bit :)
#
KevinMarks_ or read any mainsteam media article about google surveillance
#
tantek aaronpk - we can tone it down even further
#
aaronpk probably a good idea
#
tantek or rather, we can reduce the flaming, and increase the cold analysis
#
@cconover RT @kevinmarks: @cconover excellent, I added it to the http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention page (twitter.com/_/status/458712315526135808)
#
tantek aaronpk what do you mean by "still not unambiguously praise" ?
#
aaronpk the "it's easy to ___, yet ___" idiom doesn't come across as strong without the leading "it's"
#
tantek ok
#
tantek updated (dropped IG)
#
tantek "It's easy to bash silos, yet past 10y of content #UX innovations come from @Facebook @Flickr @Twitter @Tumblr @Medium."
#
tantek mostly looking for feedback like the "still not unambiguously praise" bit.
#
tantek less so editorial. I can make my own editorial mistakes ;)
#
aaronpk that is much more clear
#
tantek POSSEing in 20 seconds
#
ben_thatmustbeme haha
j12t joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme at that point why don't we just have a bot to post the consensus tweets
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I might mumble something about astronomy ;)
#
tantek btw post on Twitter's new profiles: https://blog.twitter.com/2014/your-new-web-profile-is-here
#
tantek this is interesting: "Best Tweets: Tweets that have received more engagement will appear slightly larger, so your best content is easy to find."
#
aaronpk tantek: that one super weirdded me out when I first saw it
#
tantek seems like something those of you that support receiving faves/comments etc. could do it
#
tantek me too
#
aaronpk cause it appears to be completely random
#
tantek didn't make sense
#
tantek right
#
tantek so not well executed
#
aaronpk "pin a tweet to the top" is interesting
#
aaronpk also the flow for upgrading your profile is well done
#
tantek total FB copy - pinned tweets. heh
#
aaronpk "Try it out" --> "Like what you see? Turn it on!"
#
kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+667) "/* related work */ add Pullquote and purple numbers" (view diff)
#
aaronpk ha the "pinned tweet" icon makes my profile look really marketingy
#
JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: that wp-fragmention thing looks cool, how did you find out about it?
#
ben_thatmustbeme so twitter is moving more toward myspace now?
#
ben_thatmustbeme how long before they let users set animated gifs as background images
#
KevinMarks_ my medium post is generating a lot of tweets about it
#
aaronpk KevinMarks_: where do you find the tweets?
#
KevinMarks_ they @ me
#
KevinMarks_ also medium has referrers
#
aaronpk oh nice, anildash tweeted it https://twitter.com/anildash/status/458694934753972225
#
@anildash If you publish web pages, support @kevinmarks' idea of fragmentions: https://medium.com/everything-branches-out-until/41ef2be9953f As useful & full of potential as hashtags. (twitter.com/_/status/458694934753972225)
#
@kevinmarks @tofias @anildash @davewiner this is related but doesn't require support on the destination side directly. Added to http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention#related_work (twitter.com/_/status/458716473330896897)
#
@kevinmarks @anildash you and @ginatrapani should come to Indiewebcamp NYC this weekend if you can http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (twitter.com/_/status/458716852684718080)
#
tantek next tweet:
#
tantek "If your goal is better #indieweb UX, start by copying the best innovations from those silos to your site. #selfdogfood"
#
ben_thatmustbeme i cast my vote in approval
#
kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+102) "/* indieweb implementations */" (view diff)
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: :)
#
tantek and that gives me another idea
#
ben_thatmustbeme pretends to be an angel/devil on tantek's sholder
#
tantek 1) publish indieweb post only and send PuSH notifications, 2) when post hits n (3?) indieweb "likes", then auto-posse it.
#
tantek though need some way to not POSSE when there are suggested edits to improve tone etc.
#
ben_thatmustbeme 3 indieweb "likes" not from the same site. otherwise I will break it just to be that guy
#
tantek haha yes - I was assuming classic silo definition of like which one person can only like one item once
#
ben_thatmustbeme sets up 2 more URLs
#
tantek though ben_thatmustbeme have you tried multiliking posts on benwerd's or aaronpk's sites to see if you can bump up the counts?
#
KevinMarks_ if we POSSE the like to silos and brid.gy brings them back...
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: setting up 2+ URLs is harder than setting up 2+ silo accounts.
#
ben_thatmustbeme i have not
#
ben_thatmustbeme also time for the train home
#
ben_thatmustbeme tantek, hopefully my openblog project will make that much simpler
#
ben_thatmustbeme for me anyway
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that sounds scarily like a spam threat ;)
#
KevinMarks_ Sibyl attacks as a service
#
tantek KevinMarks_: sock puppets as a service
#
tantek SPAAS
#
JonathanNeal re: fragmentions, reading about http://open.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/emphasis-update-and-source/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
#
@t If your goal is better #indieweb UX, start by copying the best innovations from those silos to your site. #selfdogfood (ttk.me t4Vh3) (twitter.com/_/status/458719596846276608)
#
KevinMarks_ yep, linked that. I think it got over-complex to fight an edge case
#
JonathanNeal If we can find a way to manage chunks of poetry, I think we’ve reached v1
indie-visitor joined the channel
#
Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
#
KevinMarks_ let me write up the vilanelle use case
#
KevinMarks_ shame I can't use fragmentions on the wiki
#
KevinMarks_ hint hint
#
aaronpk oh uh
paulcp joined the channel
#
JonathanNeal Since [ and ] will be escaped characters, we can use the unescaped [ and ] to target occurrences. Do you think that’s not too lazy?
#
tantek Kevinmarks - file an issue in the github for the wiki :) see /wiki
#
aaronpk yaplz, then I have something to check off :)
#
JonathanNeal e.g. http://www.bartleby.com/104/119.html##A+tree[3]
#
tantek JonathanNeal: it won't survive auto-escaping
#
tantek by browsers
#
tantek btw I'm tired of hearing Aral's repeated "open source has failed to produce good UX"
#
tantek already even debunked it in a reply to him last year: http://tantek.com/2013/243/t2/ownyourdata-examples-oss-firefox-chrome
#
KevinMarks_ see Android
#
KevinMarks_ :D
#
tantek KevinMarks_: consumers are *buying* it, ergo
#
tantek good enough UX?
#
KevinMarks_ it's the worlds dominant OS
#
tantek hey, any of us should be so lucky to create a *for pay* indieweb related product that sold as much as Android
j12t joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: I disagree
#
tantek seriously. reality check.
#
JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
#
KevinMarks_ [3]
#
JonathanNeal Sure, as tantek said, auto-escaping.
#
KevinMarks_ http://www.bartleby.com/104/119.html##A+tree+that+may+in+summer+wear
#
tantek KevinMarks_, JonathanNeal how about combining # and ##
#
KevinMarks_ use MOAR words
#
KevinMarks_ don't add code
#
tantek e.g. #heading##text+to+search
#
tantek first occurence of text to search after that ID
#
KevinMarks_ still too complex
#
KevinMarks_ and fragile
#
KevinMarks_ and easily replaced by using more text
#
tantek more or less fragile than nth occurence?
#
KevinMarks_ you don't wnat to reference the nth occurence
#
tantek KevinMarks_: perhaps good to add those as FAQs to /fragmention ?
#
tantek "Can I reference the nth occurence?"
#
KevinMarks_ you want to reference a particular occurence, which you indicate by adding more context
#
tantek "Can I use both a fragment and fragmention?"
#
tantek your replies above would be a sufficient stub
#
KevinMarks_ just writing an article on my site so I can have a live example
#
tantek excellent
#
aaronpk KevinMarks_: http://indiewebcamp.com/##Beyond+Blogging
#
JonathanNeal Actually, I’m unsure of what should happen in a #frag##fragmention, but I would think it restricts itself to the frag.
#
JonathanNeal And I’m unsure of what should happen for nth occurrences, nor do I have any ideas that haven’t already been well refuted.
#
@kevinmarks #indieweb @caseorganic: The web is a big mess - it always has been, but ToS makes it a worse mess (twitter.com/_/status/458723656936738816)
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
tantek aaronpk - whoa!
#
KevinMarks_ hm, my chat client crashed
#
tantek too bad Colloquy overescapes :(
#
tantek for me, clicking on that link above goes to: http://indiewebcamp.com/#%23Beyond+Blogging
#
tantek maybe that's a feature request?
#
aaronpk seems that the js could handle that
#
KevinMarks_ that's a reason to change the syntax
#
tantek JonathanNeal: #%23 as ## ?
#
KevinMarks_ the js does
#
tantek in the js
#
JonathanNeal the js does handle that, doesn’t it? https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/blob/master/fragmention.js#L25
#
tantek KevinMarks: um not currently
#
tantek as in, click link in Colloquy, does not scroll in Firefox
#
aaronpk oh maybe i have an old version
#
KevinMarks_ but the real problem is that ## is invalid, which is why we should switch to #*
#
KevinMarks_ or just #
#
aaronpk good point, why not just #?
#
KevinMarks_ [radical proposal]
#
tantek KevinMarks: ## = invalid is a GOOD thing, it means we can add it to browsers without any backcompat issue
#
KevinMarks_ no
#
aaronpk it's an invalid URL, right?
#
aaronpk which is why colloquy escapes it
#
tantek just need to get annevk to update the URL spec ;)
#
KevinMarks_ it means anyone with a strict rfc compliant parser will break the URL
#
tantek KevinMarks: that's pretty funny ;)
#
JonathanNeal agrees with tantek, and it’s not impossible to revise the spec for this, and the escaping issue was easily dealt with.
#
tantek "anyone with a strict rfc compliant parser" LOL
#
KevinMarks_ what I realsied after reading the specs
#
KevinMarks_ like colloquy
#
tantek because, there are test suites for that RFC right? ;)
#
tantek like all IETF RFCs right? ;)
#
KevinMarks_ we all read BNF here
#
tantek this is the snark that happens when you spend too much time in standards organizations
#
KevinMarks_ anyway, the point is that an html ID can contain anything except a space
#
KevinMarks_ whereas a URL can't contain a space
#
tantek KevinMarks: did you already consider #/search+terms/ ?
#
KevinMarks_ listen...
#
tantek since that /find-this/ is already a grep s/ kind of thing?
#
KevinMarks_ so #search+terms is unambiguous
#
@jvelo RT @t: If your goal is better #indieweb UX, start by copying the best innovations from those silos to your site. #selfdogfood (ttk.me t4Vh3) (twitter.com/_/status/458725321802801152)
#
KevinMarks_ because you can't have id="search terms"
#
KevinMarks_ so if there is whitespace in the fragment, it can't be an id
#
tantek interesting
#
KevinMarks_ so it must be a fragmention
#
tantek so fragmentions require whitespace?
#
tantek or trailing space?
#
KevinMarks_ I think we should make them do that
#
tantek like #term+
npdoty joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ I think two words is reasonable
#
KevinMarks_ though trailing space is OK
#
aaronpk if fragmentions require whitespace, then you can just use #search+term right?
#
tantek why not example.com/#oddterm+ for the single term case?
#
KevinMarks_ might be awkward in chinese
#
KevinMarks_ also, you could make it a fallback case in HTML5
#
aaronpk can html ids be non-latin characters?
#
JonathanNeal So... what about occurrences?
#
KevinMarks_ if the fragment doesn't maych an id (which are presumably in a hash, so fast), do the text-find thing
#
tantek JonathanNeal: have you tried http://indiewebcamp.com/#%23Beyond+Blogging in Firefox?
#
KevinMarks_ yes html ids can be any unicode except space
pasevin joined the channel
#
tantek KevinMarks: sounds good! write it up on the /fragmention page
#
aaronpk hang on I don't have the latest version
#
tantek might as well turn that into a spec draft
#
KevinMarks_ http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#the-id-attribute
#
aaronpk k now it's updated
#
tantek works now
#
KevinMarks_ "The value must be unique amongst all the IDs in the element's home subtree and must contain at least one character. The value must not contain any space characters. There are no other restrictions on what form an ID can take
#
KevinMarks_ in particular, IDs can consist of just digits, start with a digit, start with an underscore, consist of just punctuation, etc."
#
tantek so, that's kind of amazing
#
JonathanNeal tantek: is the script running on that page? I didn’t see it in the sauce.
#
tantek yes it's working now!
#
KevinMarks_ should I use <p> or <br> to mark up a poem?
#
JonathanNeal Both :)
#
KevinMarks_ <p> for verses, <br> for lines, right
j12t joined the channel
#
@t @anildash @ginatrapani consider this a +1. Would be GREAT to have you @IndieWebCamp NYC. All sign-up rants accepted ;) (ttk.me t4Vh4) (twitter.com/_/status/458727897608781824)
#
JonathanNeal Sure.
#
tantek oops forgot to have that one reviewed ;)
#
aaronpk :P
#
tantek aaronpk - you didn't mind the humor
#
tantek was just going to say
adactio joined the channel
#
tantek (as I'm expecting Anil to rant about it, unless I say that I'm expecting him to do so)
#
aaronpk haha nice one
#
KevinMarks_ both anil and gina have young kids
#
tantek reverse psychology ;)
#
tantek adactio, nice avocado toast BTW.
#
adactio tantek: thank you. :-)
#
tantek is tempted to try that for lunch
#
KevinMarks_ hm, that sounds like an idea
#
KevinMarks_ as it's 3pm and I haven't had lunch
#
tantek oops me too
#
tantek KevinMarks: did you reach @Debs?
#
JonathanNeal tantek: I have cleared all of my history and restarted Firefox, and http://indiewebcamp.com/##Beyond+Blogging (unescaped or escaped #) does not scroll to the element for me.
indie-visitor joined the channel
#
aaronpk JonathanNeal: you see it loading the script tho right?
#
JonathanNeal views source
#
JonathanNeal What is the name of the script that has it?
#
aaronpk fragmentions.js
#
JonathanNeal No, fragmentions is not in the source.
#
aaronpk oh are you not logged in?
#
aaronpk i think it caches pages if you're not logged in
#
JonathanNeal In FF I was not logged in, correct.
#
JonathanNeal That’s massive caching. I cleared everything ever and closed the browser.
#
aaronpk cache cleared
#
aaronpk it's mediawiki
#
aaronpk it writes the page to disk as an html file and serves that if you're not logged in
#
JonathanNeal Oh, it just started working!
#
KevinMarks_ sounds like a good startegy
#
aaronpk way better than running the whole mediawiki stack for each page request from crawlers and twitter bots that pound every link tweeted
#
JonathanNeal Worked like magic.
#
KevinMarks_ except it has no highlight, but that's the focus battle
#
KevinMarks_ :D
#
aaronpk i didn't add any css yet
#
aaronpk i will say it's nice to be able to drop in the JS and have it Just Work™ without needing to mess with css
#
KevinMarks_ yes, I think that's an issue
#
KevinMarks_ adding .focus() back helps
#
JonathanNeal It does “just work” without CSS. CSS is a matter of how you want it to look, which makes sense.
#
JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: another advantage of ## is what developers may want to start doing with them, like extending jQuery, .querySelector, .find, or what have you to allow the search of elements by fragmentions.
jedahan and ttepasse joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_ it works if the text is longer than the page, so it has to scroll.
#
JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: much like fragments
#
KevinMarks_ true
#
KevinMarks_ yum, avocado
#
JonathanNeal but that’s when [fragmention] is your friend. We could setup default, overridable styles in the javascript that style things like <mark>
#
JonathanNeal styles thing the way <mark> is styled, maybe { background-color: #FF0
#
JonathanNeal outline: 0.25em solid #FF0
#
JonathanNeal }
#
JonathanNeal + color: #000
#
@kevinmarks @anildash that sounds like an excellent idea- @ftrain are you free to come to IndieWebCamp NYC this weekend? http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (twitter.com/_/status/458733293798559744)
#
kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+174) "/* related work */" (view diff)
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
aaronpk tantek: LOL at this reply! https://twitter.com/mterenzio/status/458722111310553088
#
@mterenzio @t @facebook @Flickr @twitter @tumblr @Medium Not untrue but also doesn't credit all the innovation happening around on the open web (twitter.com/_/status/458722111310553088)
#
tantek aaronpk - sigh
#
tantek KevinMarks: interesting engagement on your medium POSSE copy
#
tantek even Chris Messina commented ;)
fmarier joined the channel
#
aaronpk ahem, Chris Messina™
#
tantek aaronpk - tried a positive reply here: https://twitter.com/t/status/458737119960506368
#
@t @mterenzio specifically content editing/publishing/commenting UX innovations. Happy to learn of any open web examples. (ttk.me t4Vh5) (twitter.com/_/status/458737119960506368)
#
aaronpk just can't win
#
tantek is that enough of an invitation to say, show me the citations?
#
aaronpk yes
#
tantek I'm skeptical about "innovation happening around on the open web" meaning any old random academic web architecture brainfart™
#
KevinMarks hey, we're innovation happening on the Open Web
#
aaronpk yeah and you guys aren't *that* old...
j12t joined the channel
#
aaronpk :P
#
tantek KevinMarks - we're people. what specific UX innovations would you point to? ;)
#
tantek (I have one in mind, but I figure let's see what you come up with, or were you thinking the obvious - fragmentions? ;) )
benwerd joined the channel
#
tantek KevinMarks: could you add rel=syndication to http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html##also+published+on+my+blog ?
#
tantek am I doing that right? ;)
#
tantek add it to that hyperlink
#
tantek also perhaps add a similar hyperlink "and <a rel="syndication" href="https://medium.com/everything-branches-out-until/41ef2be9953f">on medium</a>" after that one
_6a68 joined the channel
#
JonathanNeal is there a way we can address the medium usecase where people want to link to a paragraph?
#
tantek JonathanNeal: as a publisher you can always give paragraphs ids
#
tantek same thing as, as a publisher, you can include the fragmentions js
#
tantek giving paras ids is more work thought
#
tantek s/thought/though
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: giving paras ids is more work though
#
tantek for the publisher
#
tantek unless you have your CMS auto-generate for every para - then coding/maintaining that is the work
#
tantek however it's nicer for the reader - one fewer JS to load
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
JonathanNeal Yea, like h1-6, blockquote, p, figcaption, etc.
#
JonathanNeal I don’t think authors or developers will want fragmentions catching their site navigation.
#
JonathanNeal We could blacklist certain elements, like nav, script, style, meta, etc, or we could whitelist other elements, like h1-6... the aforementioned list.
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
tantek do we have any documentation of the examples of folks doing auto-ids on paras?
#
tantek e.g. Dave Winer and Tim Bray are the two that I know of
#
JonathanNeal tantek: also http://open.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/emphasis-update-and-source/ (if not made by one of those)
#
tantek what are these types of references called?
#
JonathanNeal The library is called Emphasis.
#
JonathanNeal so, emphases, or “paragraph-specific anchor links“
#
tantek sure, but what do Dave Winer and Tim Bray call it on their own sites?
#
tantek do they only do paragraphs? or headings too?
#
tantek I often put frag ids on headings
#
JonathanNeal I thought all of medium does it?
#
tantek inside of a blog post
#
JonathanNeal Medium Notes, Quartz Annotations
#
mko GitHub autogenerates IDs for all <hX> elements when displaying GitHub-flavored Markdown.
#
tantek those are the things that are added by others and displayed yes
#
tantek but not the fragments/ids themselves
#
tantek perhaps just fragments for now
#
mko Note: What I mean by GitHub autogenerating IDs is that the entire contents of a <hX> element gets converted into an ID. For example:
#
mko https://gist.github.com/mko/11197633#fragmentation links to the fragment "Fragmentation"
#
mko https://gist.github.com/mko/11197633#this-is-a-really-long-header-that-should-have-some-sort-of-limit-on-the-fragmentation-conversion-but-does-not-appear-to-have-one links to the fragment "This is a really long header that should have some sort of limit on the fragmentation conversion but does not appear to have one."
#
mko Does anyone know if GitHub is doing this as an extension of Markdown parsing or is this part of the spec?
paulcp joined the channel
#
tantek oh wow - even more MySQL problems regarding encodings: https://twitter.com/mattb/status/458743349604667393
#
@mattb Never use utf8 in MySQL - always use utf8mb4 instead. 😂 http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/mysql-utf8mb4 (twitter.com/_/status/458743349604667393)
#
tantek and another silo-death coming: https://twitter.com/brianbehlendorf/status/458741148127752192
#
@brianbehlendorf Too bad about InBloom http://http:////www-nc.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/inbloom-student-data-repository-to-close/?=_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&smid=tw-nytimesbits&_r=6& but they should have been much more decentralized, and truly Open Source, from day 1. (twitter.com/_/status/458741148127752192)
#
tantek whoa Loqi got cutoff!
#
Loqi yeah!
#
tantek haha
#
mko That URL has superbad param abuse.
#
tantek this is better: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/inbloom-student-data-repository-to-close/?smid=tw-nytimesbits
#
mko Not sure how Loqi even interpreted that URL the way it did. I just stepped through the URL redirect chain, and it's actually not that complex of a URL. lol
#
mko Must be something with the way NYTimes localizes redirects or something for different IPs.
#
tantek maybe against bots?
#
tantek here is that MySQL UTF8 how to post: http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/mysql-utf8mb4
#
tantek what a cluster
#
mko loves the alternative title.
#
tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+248) "/* 2010 */ 2009 with a tweet about owning your data and permalinks on your domain" (view diff)
#
tobilehman.com edited /OpenID (+34) "/* Consuming Sites */ add vox.com to list of openid consumers" (view diff)
#
KevinMarks did you see the reply to mattb?
#
JonathanNeal I am bummed to report that Apple VoiceOver ignores fragments when reading a page.
#
gRegor` Ok, I'll concede on that mysql post, tantek. I'm still kind of anti-database-antipattern though. :)
#
JonathanNeal Not just fragmentions. http://indiewebcamp.com/#Beyond_Blogging_and_Decentralization is ignored as easily as http://indiewebcamp.com/##Beyond+Blogging
#
gRegor` Which is a good example of where I don't entirely agree with other IWCers, but have just accepted it (going back to the earlier discussion)
#
KevinMarks mko can you add that to related on the /fragmention page?
#
JonathanNeal KevinMarks: yes
jedahan joined the channel
#
bear hmm, my rsvp yes for indiewebcamp nyc is awful wordy
#
@webdirections Great read: suggest you check this out in preparation for Tantek's Web Directions Code closing keynote, The IndieWeb http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/458756926898061312)