#indiewebcamp 2014-04-21

2014-04-21 UTC
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rascul sudo make me a sammich
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KartikPrabhu kbs: thanks. no, I usually like right-heavy sites. I just played around with the grid till I was satisfied :)
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acegiak do we have a flow for replies to replies? like, if someone posts a comment reply to one of my comment replies to another post do I just display the comment and then send an update webmention to the post I'm replying to?
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tantek acegiak - by flow, I presume you mean *user* flow? If so, how do you want your comments to look on your site?
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@zloozshop Dapatkan Diskon 25% untuk pembelian paket web hosting atau pembuatan toko online di http://www.indieweb.biz dengan belanja T-shirt min 150rb (twitter.com/_/status/458063037375987712)
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acegiak Loqi: tell tantek I was worried about how to display this http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg but now I realise we don't have any standard way of doing salmon-like upstream comment flows?
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Loqi yeah!
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acegiak !tell tantek I was worried about how to display this http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg but now I realise we don't have any standard way of doing salmon-like upstream comment flows?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: this might help: http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply
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snarfed heh, KartikPrabhu, jinx :P
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KartikPrabhu yeah :)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: deployed your change. congrats! i'm also inviting you to the app engine project so you can see the stats and logs
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@VSChawathe @paullindquist @AlainCouthures Personally that's exactly why JSON/PHP centric @indiewebcamp resonates with RDFa/XProc/PERL6 oriented me.. (twitter.com/_/status/458112130965700608)
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aaronparecki.com edited /databases-antipattern (-6) "/* Caching ok */ phrasing" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /databases-antipattern (+32) "/* Caching ok */" (view diff)
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@yatil Just proposed some accessibility improvements to the #indieweb fragmentions script: https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/pull/6 /cc @adactio #HappyEaster (twitter.com/_/status/458148247690022912)
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KartikPrabhu any javascript experts? is there a event that triggers on selecting a text?
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rascul KartikPrabhu https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Reference/Events/select
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KartikPrabhu only for input and textarea :(
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rascul so it appears
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KartikPrabhu I am trying to replicate the select functionality here https://medium.com/cool-code-pal/b21bfc1f63c7
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rascul whines about people who don't validate their html and css
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KartikPrabhu sorry! :) I wnated to extend on /fragmention so I can get the /fragmention for a selected piece of text
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rascul eh wasn't referring specifically to you
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rascul this may prove helpful though http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3545018/selected-text-event-trigger-in-javascript
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KartikPrabhu no worries! my html usually is validated. (I hope!) I guess I can try using a mouse only approch
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rascul easy peasy to validate http://validator.w3.org and http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator
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@voxpelli @mrmzholland If you still want webmentions to test, then try my https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger if you have a local version of your site to test on (twitter.com/_/status/458200628914053120)
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks, have either of you ever tested the accessibility of hash change or scrollIntoView? https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/pull/6
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Loqi tantek: acegiak left you a message on 4/20 at 7:16pm: I was worried about how to display this http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg but now I realise we don't have any standard way of doing salmon-like upstream comment flows?
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tantek !tell acegiak that http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg diagram looks a lot more complicated than any existing real world comment threading UI, so I would punt on that much complexity. Check /multireply for some simpler thoughts/examples.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi benwerd: KevinMarks left you a message on 4/4 at 4:50pm: I see the NYT cited you http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/bits/2014/04/04/why-mozillas-chief-had-to-resign/
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benwerd braces himself
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benwerd unbraces himself
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kylewm !tell snarfed I reeeeeally appreciate the detailed review and suggestions
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kylewm wish i got that kind of feedback at my job ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks Wow, long lag there. Hi Ben.
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benwerd Hi :) Back from a week at a trade show in Vegas, and a week of meetings in Texas. Pass me the kale.
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benwerd Looking forward to HWC this week.
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kylewm benwerd: super random question for you about idno. is there a good way to programmatically find /content/all from the / page? (i'm working on a bridgy feature to parse rel=syndication links)
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benwerd kylewm: it's certainly always linked in the page source, but I'd welcome any thoughts on how to mark it up to make that easier
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kylewm hmm, the best i've come up with so far is following rel="feed" based on http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#canonical_feed_autodiscovery
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KevinMarks JonathanNeal: that seems an argument for adding focus() back?
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JonathanNeal Yes, or something else, like selecting the text.
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tantek benwerd - glad to hear it! could you post an indie event and POSSE FB copy for HWC this week? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club#URLs
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benwerd tantek: I will do so shortly!
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rascul need more east coast indiewebs!
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rascul can't make nyc this weekend :(
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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tantek thanks benwerd!
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tantek rascul - bummer! any friends you know who would be interested? spread the word!
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rascul i been trying to get a couple people into the indieweb stuff but it hasn't taken hold yet
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-3 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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rascul if i knew the nyc thing was happening well enough in advance i maybe coulda got up there, i'm about 250 miles away
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tantek rascul - oh no problem - that's understandable
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-3 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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aaronpk benwerd: Portland is at Esri PDX this week
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benwerd ok, will fix
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-3 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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KevinMarks What's 250 miles from nyc?
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rascul me
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benwerd Anyone else going to IIW this year?
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Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message 57 minutes ago: I reeeeeally appreciate the detailed review and suggestions
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snarfed kylewm: welcome! sorry it was so nitpicky. i really appreciate the contribution, so it's a win win
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snarfed acegiak: i think mf2 can represent nested reply trees like that - even if it might take N http fetches to resolve the whole thing - so it's more a question of how each site chooses/implements rendering and reply-contexts, right?
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snarfed there's definitely plenty of prior art to use as examples for that part
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KevinMarks I signed up for iiw too. We can co-opt an indieweb track. I expect johannes will be there too
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j12t Yes I will
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j12t And I’m supposed to tell you that there is an IndieWeb-community-specific discount
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j12t tell you all in the community
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j12t if you want to go, talk to me or Kaliya
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KevinMarks The discount code for indieweb at iiw is INDIE_XVIII
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KevinMarks Which is 20% off
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@dsearls @aral @haxor Okay, it's up: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2014/04/20/its-indie-time/comment-page-1/#comment-325638 #Indie #VRM #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/458292702745214976)
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sparverius iiw looks super sweet
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@kevinmarks “ How can you trademark “indie”? Doesn’t everyone see the irony here?” - @haxor http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2014/04/20/its-indie-time/comment-page-1/#comment-325638 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/458296120171446272)
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aaronpk KevinMarks: he did back down on that one
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KevinMarks Yes, and that's right under what I linked to.
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aaronpk ok cool
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aaronpk well, buried in there anyway
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aaronpk WoT
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aaronpk "wall of text"
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KevinMarks I could tweet a quote from aral too, I suppose. There's enough aral in the main post though.
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KevinMarks Clearly I should use fragmentions
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KevinMarks Hmm. The problem of "I want to share a quote from and a link to this page" requiring two things on the clipboard could be solved by fragmentions too
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aaronpk I just use JumpCut to give me a stack of clipboards
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KevinMarks I'm thinking about the phone here, but desktop works too
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snarfed aaronpk: aka the emacs kill ring!
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JonathanNeal Anyone here experienced with testing pages for accessibility?
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icco JonathanNeal, like handicap accessibility or am I up accessibility?
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@ShaneHudson RT @kevinmarks: “ How can you trademark “indie”? Doesn’t everyone see the irony here?” - @haxor http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2014/04/20/its-indie-time/comment-page-1/#comment-325638 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/458302150708572160)
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JonathanNeal I’m interested in knowing if scrollIntoView triggers anything in accessibility tools, or if I need to alert the user to a change of page view differently https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/pull/6
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icco JonathanNeal, check out http://www.epa.gov/inter508/toolkit/508_compliance_toolkit_web_apps.htm
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JonathanNeal icco: sorry, but I don’t think that is going to address my question, but I’ll not bother you.
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icco ok dokee, just a shot in the dark, good luck.
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KevinMarks http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_182
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KevinMarks Says it should, but not how
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks: is that referring to :focus or scroll? Also, http://www.freedomscientific.com/documentation/scripts/JAWS-UIAScriptAPI.asp##ScrollIntoView
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@t going to Homebrew Website Club, 2014-04-23 18:30 @MozSF. indieweb: http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-3 silo: https://www.facebook.com/events/245194522349191/ (ttk.me t4Vg2) (twitter.com/_/status/458308409558040577)
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@schnarfed RT @t: going to Homebrew Website Club, 2014-04-23 18:30 @MozSF. indieweb: http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-3 silo: https://www.facebook.com/events/245194522349191/ (ttk.me t4Vg2) (twitter.com/_/status/458309284888330240)
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tantek aaronpk, caseorganic, kevinmarks - currently we we have two levels of participants at indiewebcamps: Creators & Apprentices
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tantek I'd like to consider introducing a third level between those two: Bloggers
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tantek As we start to reach out to and bring in Generation 2 folks, we're encountering more and more traditional bloggers, and I think it would be good to explicitly include them
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tantek bloggers are people that do already have their own site, and regularly (like say at least once a month) post on it
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tantek but may not consider themselves creators/builders, and they might not have indieauth setup either.
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tantek so they're more than an apprentice (since they already have their own site and are posting on it), but don't feel like calling themselves a creator (what I've heard from a few)
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tantek what do you think? thinking of introducing this new level for IndieWebCampNYC and then explicitly reaching out to NYC bloggers like Anil Dash etc.
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KevinMarks Interesting. I think of bloggers as creators.
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aaronpk interesting
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KevinMarks Is it more that they don't like the "apprentice" nomenclature?
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tantek KevinMarks - I also think of bloggers as creators, but they don't think of themselves that way
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aaronpk but you're saying bloggers don't think of themselves as creators?
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tantek because they associate "creator" with developer/designer
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aaronpk beat me to it
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tantek KevinMarks - they're also not "just" an apprentice
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KevinMarks http://indiewebcamp.com/generations already defines bloggers as #2
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tantek KevinMarks: some bloggers are happy to apprentice with a creator, others feel they're already indieweb like but are not quite a creator, so they feel they don't quite fit
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tantek KevinMarks: right - hence why I want to explicitly include bloggers as a sign-up group
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KevinMarks makes sense.
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tantek this also has a nice letter ranking [C]reators [B]loggers [A]pprentices
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aaronpk I like it
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: not really sure how accessibility works with fragmentions. How do browsers usually do that?
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tantek anybody else have any opinions on adding "Bloggers" as another level of participant between Creators and Apprentices at IndieWebCamp?
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tantek caseorga_: thoughts?
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: is there a HWC-Chicago this week?
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gRegor` I was planning on it. I put it on the wiki and RSVPed
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snarfed tantek: +1
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: well, it seems like JAWS does something with scrollIntoView
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snarfed would you still expect that they'd be able to indieauth in and rsvp themselves?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: aah so it would be device/app dependent
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: cool! I'll do that too
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (+42) "/* RSVP */ added me w00t!" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Judging by indieWebcamp SF, getting indieauth working is a good initial task to try with help. There are enough steps that it puts people off, but works as a first achievement
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tantek KevinMarks - agreed that it's a good initial task (per /Getting_Started ) - disagreed about the "enough steps". There shouldn't be. Sounds like a documentation or a communication problem.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: on a related note, I was attempting to replicate the select text functionality here https://medium.com/cool-code-pal/b21bfc1f63c7 for fragmentions. Basically the idea being you select a text and you get a contextual menu that gives you its fragmention for sharing. But I am not good with Javascript
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KartikPrabhu the most I was able to do is get the select text in an alert box: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html
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JonathanNeal Great idea!
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KartikPrabhu ultimately it could just be in the browser menu with 'copy paste' and all those options
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gregorlove.com edited /databases-antipattern (+945) "/* MySQL portability */ I feel this is a misleading example. Comments welcome." (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ on iOS you could add a service, though those are obscure enough poepl don't know about them
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: this is for fragmentions?
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KevinMarks_ yes.
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KevinMarks_ there may be a way to affect the popup menu with a plugin, though doing something like medium would be more subtle
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: right now it is only on 'mouseup' event so no touch but I haven't written any touch based JS ever!
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KartikPrabhu also annoying popups are annoying!
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tantek.com edited /databases-antipattern (+924) "/* MySQL portability */ MySQL upgrades can blow away databases, WordPress upgrades can silently corrupt UTF8 content" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /databases-antipattern (+315) "/* MySQL portability */ another citation of MySQL portability failure" (view diff)
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tantek you want citations? I got citations. No desire to ever bother with setting up / learning / using MySQL until this kind of nonsense is completely fixed. Never had any of those problems with simple flat UTF8 text files.
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KevinMarks_ I remember that at Technorati. Had do some very delicate and careful work to keep the utf8 data we'd been storing int he DB to stay in utf8 when SQL decided that it finally understood utf8 and "helpfully" re-encoded from the old defaults
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tantek right, needing "delicate and careful work" = fragile system.
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KevinMarks_ yep
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KevinMarks_ similarly with encoding assumptions in the various programming languages int he chain there
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KevinMarks_ PHP did something similar, changing default encoding assumption between versions
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KevinMarks_ Java assumed everything should be 16-bit unicode.
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KevinMarks_ Perl didn't give a fuck
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KevinMarks_ Python understood unicode, but you had to remind it not to default to coercing through ascii or get runtime errors
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KartikPrabhu this is quite ironic in the light of this tweet https://twitter.com/VSChawathe/status/458112130965700608
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@VSChawathe @paullindquist @AlainCouthures Personally that's exactly why JSON/PHP centric @indiewebcamp resonates with RDFa/XProc/PERL6 oriented me.. (twitter.com/_/status/458112130965700608)
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KartikPrabhu would have never thought indiewebcamp gave the impression of being JSON/PHP centric
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kylewm ohhh Anil Dash would be awesome to have at an IWC. kottke.org is in NYC too
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KevinMarks_ and paul ford
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I think https://github.com/indieweb definitely gives that impression
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KartikPrabhu possibly! hey how do we python guys get added to that :P
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kylewm does anyone show reply contexts for h-events?
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aaronpk kylewm: yes I do, but the link I was about to send you is broken!
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aaronpk it should be fixed when I push up my DB stuff... crap
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kylewm oh sounds good! sorry it is broken but i can wait :)
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aaronpk seriously considering adding a continuous integration test suite to my site so I can't accidentally do crap like this
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KevinMarks_ aaronpk: you can add a comment to the db thread Tantek was posting
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snarfed testing++
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Loqi testing has 3 karma
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aaronpk yeah I want to set up a list of URLs to watch and the test script will make sure they always return sane results, looking for my HTML header and also looking for the parsed microformats to be as expected
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aaronpk hm citation needed for "[mysqldump | scp | mysql] doesn't work across MySQL versions/configurations"
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aaronpk in my experience that's actually the *only* reliable way to port data between different mysql versions
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aaronpk or between servers
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KevinMarks_ encoding can still bit you
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aaronpk yes definitely
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aaronpk but that's different from "doesn't work"
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snarfed agreed, i've definitely done that across *many* different mysql versions
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snarfed i'm sure there's some set of versions that might break some part of it, but anecdotally, i'm guessing it's a minority
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KevinMarks_ I remember it circa 2005
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aaronpk I want to update that to be more specific about the encoding problems and --skip-extended-insert
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KevinMarks_ the comment about "use utf8 in the first place" is a wonderful bit of "If I were going there I wouldn't be starting from here"
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KevinMarks_ remembers having to cope with webpages and feeds with multiple encodings mixed together, because people copy/paste
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aaronparecki.com edited /databases-antipattern (+37) "/* MySQL portability */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ see http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/sanitize/sanitize-0.32.py for some good old fashioned pain here
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KevinMarks_ wow, chrome can no longer search for python files
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KevinMarks_ if I go to google and search for [sanitize.py] it hides the search box, puts sanitize.py in the adderss bar, and then fails as it isn't a URL
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KevinMarks_ is .py a TLD?
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KevinMarks_ ah, paraguay
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kylewm ack ebcdic!
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bret KevinMarks_ press tab!
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KevinMarks_ well, that works, but showing the search on the "domain did not resolve" page would make more sense
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bret i agree
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@kevinmarks @hertling see http://indiewebcamp.com/generations for thoughts on how to do that. And do join us. (twitter.com/_/status/458348514263576577)
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bret whoa, when did that get written?
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bret rad!
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KevinMarks_ amber wrote it after indiewebcamp sf iirc
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kbs hm, how do plain-text files escape the 'what-encoding-am-i-in' issue?
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KartikPrabhu kbs: i think the point being made is that they are more robust to changes...
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kbs I think that argument makes good sense to me :) but maybe I misunderstood the specific complaint about encoding formats
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kbs [I find git to be a fairly handy database, for plain-text content especially]
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KartikPrabhu kbs: that seems like a good idea!
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KevinMarks_ they don't escape the problem, but they are less likely to be globally breakable
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kbs KevinMarks_: makes sense *nod*
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KartikPrabhu yeah that is mostly what i got from that disucssions
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KartikPrabhu also trying to save timezones in MySQL was a pain!
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aaronpk timezones are a pain in general
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KartikPrabhu but very easy to do in ISO format in text files
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: past tense? are you moving to flat files?
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kbs fewer expectations from text files, hence easier to see the issues :)
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KartikPrabhu past tense because I got it working! Though I am trying to move to files
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: if you end up making a flat file system that work with python let me know :P
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kylewm oh oh makes sense
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KevinMarks_ timezones are a way to create dependencies in your code on legislative bodies in countries you have never heard of
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aaronpk lol
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tantek KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 20 karma
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tantek KevinMarks: [named] timezones you mean, right?
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KevinMarks_ yes, fair
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tantek as opposed to numerical offset timezones
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tantek ok cool, just wanted to know before I quoted you :)
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KevinMarks_ numerical offset timezones are just maths
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KevinMarks_ :D
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tantek drat - too long for me to quote in a single Falcon tweet ;)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: agreed! hence using the numerical offset method using ISO formats in text files is great!
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KevinMarks_ you could trim "are a way to"
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aaronpk problem with numerical timezone offsets is you can't store it in a user profile as a preference
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aaronpk cause then you're wrong half the year
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KevinMarks_ move to arizona
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aaronpk yeah arizona isn't big enough to fit all the users
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tantek aaronpk - you can store their home city as a preference
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: DST?
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aaronpk but then you have more problems
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aaronpk city names are more variable than timezone names. at least there are well maintained lists of timezone names.
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tantek if you're going to do dynamic (i.e. OlsenDB) lookup, then might as well do dynamic lookup from a piece of real-world human static information (home city) rather than named TZ
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KevinMarks_ updating your user profile twice a year is probably a good idea anyway (I just realised I hadn't updated mine on blogger in 2 years yesterday)
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tantek aaronpk - that depends on the choosing UI. e.g. if you use a map and let a user click on their home city
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tantek none of this typing nonsense that iOS does
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tantek (seriously, why are there ANY UIs, especially on mobile that make you *type* the name of a city?!?)
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aaronpk i'm talking about what you actually store in the system tho. the city name? city+region+country? some sort of globally unique city ID? the lat/lng?
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tantek is tempted to propose an <input type="locality">
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snarfed kylewm, KartikPrabhu: if you want an example of a flat file based python CMS, pyblosxom is a decent self contained one
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snarfed (if a bit long in the tooth)
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tantek aaronpk - per vCard/hCard/adr/h-card/h-adr - this is a solved problem :D
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_, JonathanNeal: is there someplace the fragmention algorithm is located? That is a set of rules that a fragmention string should follow so that the search works as expected?
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tantek locality, region, country-name
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aaronpk but it's still not easy enough to find the timezone or location of a city given that information
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: thanks! will look into it. I was more inclined to use mf2+HTML to store and mf2py to retrieve. Golden Hammer and all :P
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aaronpk cause no way am I going to stick a database of all cities into my code, that's huge
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tantek aaronpk - how is that not a simple web service?
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tantek + caching = done?
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aaronpk it is, it's called geocoding
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KevinMarks_ typing a name is easier than reading a map for a lot of people
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tantek KevinMarks: what? citation for that user study please
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aaronpk (i would much rather type the first few letters of a name and click from a filtered list than use a map)
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aaronpk especially when adding more cities to my world clock or weather app, cause i'm usually not at the location i'm trying to add, and i dont wanna pan a map around all day to find the city i'm traveling to next week
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KevinMarks_ here you are, tantek: http://thebloggess.com/2009/09/im-pretty-sure-its-pronounced-wesley-ann/
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kbs haha :-)
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kbs has trouble with finding his way around, and can relate :)
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tantek the street signs problem is real
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tantek especially in older countries
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kbs Buying my first GPS was like wearing spectacles for the first time...
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aaronpk fwiw I use this a bunch to find the timezone given a lat/lng https://github.com/aaronpk/Timezone-API
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KevinMarks_ I use google maps spoken directiosn while cycling, and it says shit like "go north east"
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KevinMarks_ like I'm the one with a compass in
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tantek haha
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aaronpk with a good geocoder you could go from locality+region+country to timezone offset
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tantek right
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aaronpk unfortunately it's not trivial to find or run a good geocoder
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aaronpk most of the issues around it end up on the business/licensing side rather than technical
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KevinMarks_ also it says "california bike route 37" (Or something) when it means "Market Street"
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tantek.com created /timezone (+240) "stub based on kevinmarks dfn" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - fine, I've stubbed a wiki page on it, feel free to document your implementation / brainstorming ;)
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aaronpk ha
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KevinMarks_ why are obviously synthetic people tryign to friend me on facebook? https://www.facebook.com/lanshi.shi.9
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KartikPrabhu synthetic people are people too! :P
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tantek KevinMarks - it's natural in the course of evolution of any online "social" network
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: did you find what you are looking for?
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tantek !tell kylewm re: "reply contexts for h-events" do you mean like, in an RSVP post?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm tantek: yes, exactly
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 19 seconds ago: re: "reply contexts for h-events" do you mean like, in an RSVP post?
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tantek kylewm - check the current RSVP examples - pretty sure they all have *some* sort of reply-context: https://indiewebcamp.com/RSVP#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk here's mine when it's not broke https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5316/13961896604_2b1703d685_b.jpg
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kylewm whoa, that looks awesome aaronpk
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aaronpk thanks!
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kylewm.com edited /rsvp (+1) "/* Nick Doty */ .com -> .name" (view diff)
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junglecode.net edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+306) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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tantek Woot!
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Loqi :D
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tantek welcome jet!
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jet_ tantek: thx!
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tantek related to this whole "indie-*" conversation: https://twitter.com/t/status/458375088312942592
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Loqi [@t] @dsearls @aral I agree with @haxor.
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aaronpk quoting aral, "I don’t think the benefit of using Indie as the trading name for Article 12 Ltd ... is worth the confusion and fear/uncertainty/doubt that it might cause. So we’re going to drop it and use the current company name..."
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aaronpk and "I’ve now removed Indie from the list of trademarks on the site."
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tantek aaronpk - that's just the word "indie" by itself (which yes was ridiculous)
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aaronpk yes
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tantek AFAIK he still wants to trademark specific prefix uses like "indie phone"
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tantek which is why I said it's a generic prefix
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aaronpk I believe that is the case yes
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aaronpk so funny thing about trademarks...
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tantek also this whole thing about worrying about trademarking product names before you have anything to show/ship is ridiculous
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tantek so I'm kinda calling bullshit on that
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk so a trademark has to be an adjective, not a noun. so actually "Indie" makes a better trademark than "Indie Phone"
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tantek ^^^ IANAL
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tantek :P
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aaronpk IANALBHTTLOLR
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aaronpk (but have talked to lots of lawyers recently)
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KevinMarks_ whereas registering domain names before you have anything to show is perfectly reasonable
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benwerd_ looks at his domain name portfolio and coughs nonchalantly
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tantek KevinMarks - domains names are much cheaper :)
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KevinMarks_ which reminds me, does anyone what pythononaplane.com before I let it lapse?
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KevinMarks_ s/what/want/
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Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: which reminds me, does anyone want pythononaplane.com before I let it lapse?
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aaronpk also trademarks apply in a specific industry, which is why companies like GitHub register their trademark for both software as well as t-shirts
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aaronpk s/t-shirts/apparel
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: also trademarks apply in a specific industry, which is why companies like GitHub register their trademark for both software as well as apparel
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benwerd_ For me, I find the withdrawal of indie as a trademark in order to play well with the community hard to reconcile in good faith with very public condemnations of organizations related to the community.
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@t @dsearls @aral Want to be "indie"? Tweet from your own domain. Til then it's all tweet no action. #indieweb cc: @haxor (ttk.me t4Vg4) (twitter.com/_/status/458377124005826560)
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tantek benwerd - yeah, the public condemnations aren't very "community" aware are they?
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aaronpk which organizations are these? I must have missed something
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tantek like Mozilla
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benwerd_ lots of mozilla-bashing due to its revenue ties to google.
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KevinMarks_ aral is pushing the "silos are evil corporations" line hard
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tantek which is not helpful
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aaronpk super not helpful
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tantek silos are clumsy corporations
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KevinMarks_ as opposed to the "silos are a design error which we can mitigate" one
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tantek clumsiness sometimes looks like evil
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tantek KevinMarks, exactly
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: did you find what you are looking for?
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tantek or, silos are scaffolding we can use to build out the indieweb
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aaronpk this tweet struck me https://twitter.com/_tessr/status/457217377801756672
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@_tessr @benwerd @caseorganic definitely very thought-provoking, especially as someone working on a 3rd party platform. Trying to be responsible. (twitter.com/_/status/457217377801756672)
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aaronpk she works at Medium, where Amber's indieweb talk was hosted last week
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tantek thought provoking the troops at Medium is a good approach
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KevinMarks_ we had a good chat with them in the pub afterwards too
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tantek KevinMarks - I'd like to hear more about that
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KevinMarks_ I was talking about wanting them to be a good PESOS player
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tantek better to have them be a good POSSE player
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KevinMarks_ let us publish medium posts on our own domains, like blogger used to with ftp
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tantek e.g. have specific UI for cross-posting to Medium
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KevinMarks_ they see themselves as an authoring environment primarily
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tantek not a magazine?
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aaronpk sounds like they'd make a great micropub client :)
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KevinMarks_ also talked about webmentions (and fragmentions) feeding into their comments system
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KevinMarks_ and their invisible UX problems
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KevinMarks_ who knew they had a download option? or rel-author support?
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/04/21/1/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/hosting#Is_using_3rd_party_hosting_still_indieweb (webmention)
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KevinMarks_ they were talking about "embedding medium posts on your site"
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tantek glad we captured that FAQ :)
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KevinMarks_ ie thinking like youtube
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tantek KevinMarks_: sigh. they don't get it. no one wants that nonsense.
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aaronpk (it only partially answers his question, cause heroku and meteor are not quite the same as a generic web host)
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KevinMarks_ well, people do - see scribd etc
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tantek scribd is for hosting *other peoples* PDFs
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KevinMarks_ but posting to my own site too is better
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tantek not your own content
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tantek I mean, in practice
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KevinMarks_ OK, slideshare then
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KevinMarks_ I said "that worked really well for google wave"
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@aaronpk @JohnB In general, it's not lock-in if you can easily pick up and move somewhere else. cc @caseorganic More info... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/04/21/1/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/458379233069260800)
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tantek KevinMarks LOL! Nice retort. Were they speechless?
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kylewm aaronpk: I don't understand "trademark has to be an adjective, not a noun" ... what's an example of a trademarked adjective?
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aaronpk kylewm: technically every trademark is an adjective that describes a generic noun
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: not really! basically I'm trying to reverse the fragmention algo to make my "find the fragmention for this piece" mock up
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KevinMarks_ it was a bit mean, really. we went back and forth a lot, with me making more blogger analogies
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aaronpk Xerox copiers, Kleenex tissues...
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kylewm oh, like Nabisco Foods
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kylewm there you go, ok that makes sense
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KartikPrabhu Google Glass not Glass to be more topical
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aaronpk yep. so "Indie phone" would work if "Indie" is the trademark
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kylewm what about iPhone?
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KartikPrabhu "i" possibly might do it
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aaronpk https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/trademark/appletmlist.html
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aaronpk iPhone mobile digital device
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aaronpk LaserWriter printer
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KevinMarks_ If I download my posts from medium, I get standalone html files
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KevinMarks_ with Exported from Medium on April 21, 2014. View the original at the bottom
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j12t I have never heard that adjective explanation of trademarks, and I have heard the speech many times.
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aaronpk Retina display
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KevinMarks_ so PESOS
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j12t there’s a product category, and the mark identifies a particular product from a particular vendor within the category
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (-20) "/* URLs */ add SF URLs" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: you think it is possible to automate that from Medium? Also what happens to the "annotations"?
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KevinMarks_ however it hotlinks the image files on their site
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KevinMarks_ don't know, not got any
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KartikPrabhu I'd annotate things as a test case... you got a link?
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KevinMarks_ https://medium.com/p/2d26ad65956e
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aaronpk if you incorrectly use your trademark as a noun, you risk losing it. that's why companies like Adobe push so hard to keep using "Photoshop" properly
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KevinMarks_ pretty sure it keeps them
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KevinMarks_ or a verb
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aaronpk right
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KevinMarks_ "google that"
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j12t …as a noun that describes the category, not the product
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KevinMarks_ "xerox that"
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KartikPrabhu man! now I should come up with a clever annotation :P
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KevinMarks_ "eventually every domain becomes a porn site"
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KevinMarks_ I think I cited that in my other post too
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tantek.com edited /Blogger (+291) "criticism templates use XML" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ thematic
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KevinMarks_ wonders if timbl has said that in public
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: I just annotated this https://medium.com/p/2d26ad65956e##itself+is+antifragile
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KevinMarks_ makes it public
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tantek benwerd, does idno support receiving pingback (as well as webmention) for comments / RSVPs?
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tantek Thinking of asking [B]loggers for IndieWebCampNYC to RSVP by blogging on their own site that they're going (i.e. if they don't want to or can't setup IndieAuth)
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tantek and then thought, what if we asked them to cite / link to a specific indie event URL
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tantek and thus pingback to it
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KevinMarks_ interesting, my post is in this collection: https://medium.com/opposite-of-fragile
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aaronpk benwerd_: if not, you can quickly enable pingback support via the webmention.io forwarding
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benwerd_ tantek: it does not, currently
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benwerd_ aaronpk: I'll take a look at that, but might also try and implement native pingback
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tantek does View Source on http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-3 and doesn't find any rel=pingback
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benwerd_ yeah, not yet - but it's something I can take a look at ;)
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tantek benwerd, even though you can't make it, perhaps you could post an indie event for IndieWebCampNYC also?
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benwerd_ sure
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: do let me know how the annotations export (if they do...) interested to see their markup
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tantek is embarrassed he still doesn't have indie event posting support, nevermind receiving/displaying webmentions/RSVPs :/
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KevinMarks_ I think they don't
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tantek got distracted by people focused mobile comms.
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KartikPrabhu aah well!
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KartikPrabhu fragmentions ftw!
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KartikPrabhu side question: does anyone like the "5mins to read this" warnings that websites have?
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aaronpk benwerd_: the pingback xml is annoying but not the end of the world to deal with, but using webmention.io forwarding is easier :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: never believed them
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KartikPrabhu tantek: speed reader?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: totally subject dependent
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KartikPrabhu true! and it seems more like a warning than an invitation
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kylewm I like them, KartikPrabhu. or perhaps, i dislike the opposite, where it's hard to tell how long something is because it's split up into pages
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: pagination is quite bad... specially for really small articles.
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KevinMarks_ hm, also medium exports name="12c9" on the paragraphs
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tantek not id?!?
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KevinMarks_ nope
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KevinMarks_ retro
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tantek deprecated
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+908) "add blogger instructions and section, prioritize in-person Creators, Bloggers, Apprentices over other participants" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ going to see if I can make my fragmentions post work on medium
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tantek aaronpk, kevinmarks, benwerd, snarfed, please review my addition of "Bloggers" as a third type of participant here and let me know if that sounds good to you: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
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KevinMarks_ interesting, pasting from HTML works pretty well
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KevinMarks_ though medium doesn't have a way to style something <code>
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+7) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+0) "/* Capacity */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ are medium posts expected to have an image at the top?
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tantek.com created /IndieWebCampNYC (+22) "redir" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /NYC (+22) "r" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ https://medium.com/p/41ef2be9953f is fragmentions on medium
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KartikPrabhu fragmentions link getting demo update: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html select some text to see its fragmention in the top-right corner :) no claims of being correct also wip
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KevinMarks_ heh, if I try to click the fragmention link to copy it, it changes
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KevinMarks_ put it in a textarea?
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KartikPrabhu it does :(
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: you could do something like https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/4c283d7c1834b80fcc0c
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: browser? it seems to work in FF
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JonathanNeal But ideally, you wouldn’t just update the hash on select.
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KevinMarks_ I think I double-clicked to select he text and it went odd
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KevinMarks_ safari
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benwerd_ oh, hey, medium just sent me an email about this.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: man my JS looks much more horrible! than yours :)
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KevinMarks_ about what?
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KevinMarks_ me posting?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: in FF even double clicking and all that works correctly .... browser quirks :(
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JonathanNeal So, what do you think is a good experience for creating fragmentions? That when you highlight text, it gives you a little popup like you’ve done?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: Not pop up but something like what medium does. A little contextual button shows up close by, which you can click to get the link
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KartikPrabhu ideally it would be in the browser contextual menu
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KartikPrabhu oh it stopped raining! walking home... be back in a bit
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC (+638) "/* Organizers */ note we should explicitly invite NYC creators and bloggers who have shown interest in the indie web" (view diff)
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tantek everyone: if you've got suggestions for NYC based creators or bloggers we should reach out to - please add them here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC#Invite_NYC_Creators
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tantek.com edited /2014/NYC (+32) "/* Invite NYC Creators */ linky" (view diff)
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Uksurreyman hi
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tantek hello Uksurreyman!
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KevinMarks_ hm medium pretty-prints the CSS it injects, but dumps the HTML in without newlines after the paragraphs
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KevinMarks_ and id doesn't export annotations
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KevinMarks_ s/id/it/
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Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: and it doesn't export annotations
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tantek probably because they need a format for that ;)
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kylewm.com edited /2014/NYC (+113) "/* Invite NYC Bloggers */ added kottke" (view diff)