#indiewebcamp 2014-05-03

2014-05-03 UTC
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kyank tantek: FYI, WDC14 will indeed be posting videos of all the talks. It will just take them a month or two to edit them all.
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bret kyank++
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Loqi kyank has 1 karma
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bret taking this debate over to indiechat
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snarfed a sign that your unit tests are written at the right level: big refactoring, 229 additions/215 deletions in the actual source, only 2 out of 702 lines in the tests had to change
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snarfed unittests++
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Loqi unittests has 4 karma
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snarfed *have*, loqi, have
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tantek re: faves vs. likes - I called them "props"
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kyank tantek: FYI, WDC14 will indeed be posting videos of all the talks. It will just take them a month or two to edit them all.
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tantek kyank great!
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tantek re: favorites vs. likes. including +1, Digg thumbs up etc.: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block#web-action-motivations (scroll down to "props")
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kyank The videos will appear here: http://www.webdirections.org/videos/
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tantek gRegor`, aaronpk, KevinMarks ^^^
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@t Thanks @maxine @johnallsopp! Had fun with #WDC14 closing keynote. Everyone has their #indieweb homework assignment. :) (ttk.me t4Vs1) (twitter.com/_/status/462409572083585024)
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kevinyank.com edited /Falcon (-7) "Fix broken logo due to Twitter avatar URL change" (view diff)
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gRegor` !tell tantek That reminds me of xanga.com back in the day. They had "eProps." You could give 1, 2, or no eProps along with your comment.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kyank aaronpk: Facebook not currently supported by IndieAuth, correct?
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aaronpk Correct, Facebook doesn't return useful HTML in public profile pages
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kyank aaronpk: I understand why not (backlink is buried in JavaScript page rendering nonsense), but I’m curious why the greyed-out logo is shown under Authentication providers currently supported on https://indieauth.com.
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kyank aaronpk: Was it supported at one time and the logo greyed out because it had to be removed?
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aaronpk I don't know, maybe a passive aggressive attempt at shaming them into returning real HTML
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kyank OK. :)
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@t posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462485392005271552)
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message 4 hours, 50 minutes ago: That reminds me of xanga.com back in the day. They had "eProps." You could give 1, 2, or no eProps along with your comment.
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@benwerd RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462485578122944512)
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tantek gRegor`: that's pretty funny
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@JeffBallweg RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462486673473806336)
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@canuckistani RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462487295229046784)
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@flinklabs Great to hear @t talk about the indieweb at #wdc14. Brought back great memories of http://www.neuronwave.com/bcb/ from 2003 and eTech 2004 (twitter.com/_/status/462488322279874561)
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@johnallsopp RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462488968789913600)
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@lnoogn RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462491020240777216)
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@matthewfellows RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462492024692690945)
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@joshgillies Thanks to @t not only for his excellent closing talk at #wdc14 but also this #indieweb sticker! :) / @indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/joshgillies/status/462492338191757312/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/462492338191757312)
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@rolandguelle RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462496626222043136)
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@haverholm RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462504924472176640)
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@kevinmarks RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462505317234794496)
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@gorhal RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462505339787948032)
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Loqi [mention] http://foxmwoods.com/2014/05/03/favourite-talks-from-web-directions-code/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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KevinMarks kyank, aaronpk: facebook did have proper, crawlable rel="me" at one point
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KevinMarks then when google actually crawled them, they shut it off
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@sufw RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462509950246219776)
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@rwDmp "@t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" Indieweb just takes power from silos and adds it to search engines. So whattedealyo (twitter.com/_/status/462514513099886592)
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@rvagg RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462530830280056832)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor Mel
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barnabywalters greetings Melissa! welcome to #indiewebcamp
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Melissa_k Hi there, thanks!
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@beaulebens RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2) (twitter.com/_/status/462571343264088064)
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@bridgetstewart @PetraGregorova @chloeweil http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#indiewebcamp2011-photo I recognize some people in this photo! (twitter.com/_/status/462572365147144193)
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bnvk !tell tantek really great slide show, especially love the matrix silo images ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@robdolin @t Thanks for sharing both slides and etherpad. I had trouble with slides on my @WindowsPhone. Are there #IndieWeb folks in #Seattle? (twitter.com/_/status/462574640636755968)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Bridgy (+89) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added waterpigs.co.uk example" (view diff)
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@sentience Spent a few hours today moving http://kevinyank.comkevinyank.com to @jekyllrb in preparation for @indiewebcamp adventure (and new writing!). (twitter.com/_/status/462602076678144000)
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@sentience Spent a few hours today moving http://kevinyank.com to @jekyllrb in preparation for @indiewebcamp adventure (and new writing!). (twitter.com/_/status/462602758063812608)
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bret the slide is the best: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#silos-stopped haha!
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Loqi hehe
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aaronpk does bridgy pull replies from G+ for "communities" too?
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@kevinmarks “a homepage URL is a more powerful and flexible way for authors to invite the curious to learn more” http://nedbatchelder.com//blog/201405/github_monoculture.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/462627693607919617)
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aaronpk it's about time for indieauth to get a logo
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KevinMarks3 Let's hope the indieauth logo is better than the OAuth one
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aaronpk indeed
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aaronpk maybe we need an IndieAuth sloth instead of the OAuth cat
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barnabywalters aaronpk: the squashed oauth cat?
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aaronpk :/
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KevinMarks3 The alla
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bnvk hehe a sloth
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KevinMarks3 s/alla/alleged OAuth bug had a better logo than OAuth /
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Loqi KevinMarks3 meant to say: The alleged OAuth bug had a better logo than OAuth 
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aaronpk that was a ridiculous logo
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aaronpk here is an attempt at a logo from a while ago http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-draft-20140205-131209.png
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barnabywalters aaronpk: very AI
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KevinMarks3 Is that the i in team?
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aaronpk KevinMarks3: you said that last time too :D http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-02-05/line/1391635119
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KevinMarks3 Clearly it works for me
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KevinMarks3 That's a better referent than subway tokens (which I didn't get as by the time I went to nyc they were mag stripes)
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KevinMarks3 I like it, it has a keyhole resonance too
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aaronpk i could put key teeth on it too
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bnvk arronpk: I rather like that logo
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barnabywalters so here’s what it looks like next to a sign-in box: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/indieauth-logo-inplace.png
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barnabywalters only comment I’d make is that it looks a little like a warning sign
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aaronpk ooh good point
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aaronpk i could round it out, might make it look friendlier
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barnabywalters maybe — triangle road signs to tend to have rounded corners though
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aaronpk ok here's another variation: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7191/14097772244_2b19bc53f7_o.png
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk now it also kind of looks like a person icon http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-draft-20140503-095342.png
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bnvk it kind reminds me of the Airwalk (shoes) logo
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bnvk http://www.highsnobiety.com/uploads/RTEmagicC_airwalk_vic.jpg.jpg
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aaronpk add an eyeball and it looks super creepy http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-eyeball-20140503-095505.png
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bnvk hehe
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bnvk a lil spy eye
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aaronpk added a little rounding http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-rounded-20140503-100040.png
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aaronpk and a little color http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-color-20140503-100239.png
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aaronpk better shape and color: http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-color-blue-20140503-100812.png
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aaronpk barnabywalters: how's that look on your sign-in form?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: much less like a warning! http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/indieauth-blue-logo-inplace.png
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aaronpk cool!
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aaronpk should work as a favicon too
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aaronpk this stuff is super confusing and I want to finish it and be done with it
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bret the favicon stuff?>
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aaronpk no the auth stuff
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bret oh heh, yes
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aaronpk I'm trying to figure out if IndieAuth can be built completely on top of OpenID Connect or if it's only built on top of OAuth 2.0 (like OpenID Connect is)
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aaronpk cause it's solving the same problem OpenID connect is but for a less general case, where all IDs and users are represented by URLs
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KevinMarks3 Not sure about blue, too Facebook/twitter?
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aaronpk heh
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KevinMarks3 Could you use the Indie Web camp orange/red palette?
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aaronpk my hunch is that will look too much like a warning/danger again
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bnvk I agree with that notion
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KevinMarks3 Hmm. Microformats did well with the green palette
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KevinMarks3 (we had an orange variant too, that got less traction)
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KartikPrabhu might I suggest just black and white?
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KevinMarks3 http://microformats.org/wordpress/wp-content/themes/microformats/img/mf-lg-ora.gif
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bnvk I think the blue relating to F/T isn't necessarily a bad thing- it creates an error of familiarity
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aaronpk here's what it looks like with the microformats color palette http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-green-20140503-110726.png
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: I designed it so that if it is rendered as black and white it will still be recognizable, but I think it's important to have color too.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: hmm fair enough
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KartikPrabhu might I also suggest that the A be in white and the surrounding space be in colour?
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KartikPrabhu negative of all previous attempts
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KevinMarks3 I like the green
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: that would require that the border become part of the logo, and I think would look too heavy
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KevinMarks3 I keep imagining a smiley face in the circle...
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aaronpk border+background
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aaronpk KevinMarks3: that's probably good :)
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KartikPrabhu I feel the border is too heavy at present
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KevinMarks3 Is the white part of the logo? If you overlay on a grey, it stays white?
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aaronpk here is a slightly thinner border http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-smaller-border-20140503-111149.png
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aaronpk KevinMarks3: I was thinking it was actually a hole
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kylewm is it possible to make an svg where the border would be relatively thicker at smaller sizes?
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KevinMarks3 Then you get a problem with dark backgrounds
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-on-black-20140503-111314.png
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aaronpk kylewm: not that I know of
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bret looking at the favicon with a black background it looks kinda like a groovy 60's font
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aaronpk haha
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kylewm that's kinda the problem with one logo for all sizes i guess, borders too thick at large sizes, too thin when small
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aaronpk yeah typically you have to make several versions of the logo for different sizes and media
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aaronpk especially when you start getting into small raster land, it's common to make a hand-crafted version of a logo choosing each of the 16x16 pixels carefully
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kylewm gotcha
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aaronpk oh wow, openid connect tokens have a property to indicate the method of authentication that was used
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aaronpk " JSON array of strings that are identifiers for authentication methods used in the authentication. For instance, values might indicate that both password and OTP authentication methods were used."
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aaronpk that is useful so that an endpoint consuming the token can know how strong the tokens are, so it could implement two-factor auth
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aaronpk e.g. my micropub endpoint could require tokens that were generated using one method from both lists: ['twitter.com','github.com','google.com'], ['sms','totp']
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KevinMarks3 Hmm, I think white inner on black would show up better. The person in the A becomes manifest
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aaronpk the space under the A would still be black though
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aaronpk side note: it is super weird to context-switch between designing a logo and designing an auth protocol
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@chloeweil @bridgetstewart Me at my prime! I'm looking a lot more broken at the last one: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp-nyc-2014-117.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/462661603964383232)
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aaronpk I think if the logo is going to be on black then the entire thing should be white
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KevinMarks3 No, make the space under the A white too
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KevinMarks3 Then it's clear that you're making the figure/ground split
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aaronpk white on black http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-white-on-black-20140503-114036.png
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aaronpk ah but I don't think I want it to be blatant, just implied
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: like the b/w version, without actual borders
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aaronpk yeah as b/w it would not have borders, either the white-on-black or the black-on-white
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KartikPrabhu then why border on the colour version?
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KartikPrabhu why not just use green-on-white
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-green-flat-20140503-114258.png
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aaronpk i kind of like the depth it has with the border
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KartikPrabhu fwiw: i quite like the borderless one. simpler design
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KartikPrabhu I'm a bit confused about the value-class-pattern. http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing says that value class pattern does not affect URL properties but http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property has a value-class-pattern step...
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KartikPrabhu maybe I should ask on #microformats
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KevinMarks the microformats2 is probably more recent
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KartikPrabhu yes but it links back to the value-class-pattern page
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KevinMarks I messed up the mask, but I think https://googledrive.com/host/0B7cAS_dEul22MlEtRFhabkc0a2c/indieauthlogo.html works
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aaronparecki.com edited /auth-brainstorming (+380) "/* Authorization Endpoint */" (view diff)
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aaronpk KevinMarks: hm the issue I have with that is the white background is kind of dangling, not anchored to anything
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KevinMarks well, it's like the NBA logo
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aaronpk the NBA logo is surrounded by a white border which gives it something to attach to
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KevinMarks ah, I saw it on white
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aaronpk so imagine the A being a physical object, where would the holes be. i.e. it should be possible to do this with the IndieAuth logo: http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/iconshock/nba/256/nba-logo-icon.png
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KevinMarks hmm http://opensource.org/files/osi_standard_logo.png
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aaronpk ha yeah like that
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KevinMarks interesting that the colours are converged
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aaronpk maybe that's a good reason to use blue
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KevinMarks If green = open, that's a good association
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KevinMarks blue=corporate
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aaronparecki.com edited /auth-brainstorming (+763) "/* Token Endpoint */" (view diff)
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aaronpk true!
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aaronpk if I ever make an indieauth iphone app it would probably not be good if there was yet another blue icon
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KevinMarks http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9230081/Open_source_movements_butt_heads_over_logo
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aaronpk The IndieAuth logo is not too similar I think
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KartikPrabhu !tell barnabywalters: does php-mf2 implement the full value-class-pattern parsing or only the plain text part? Using a data element with value attribute does not seem to work. ref: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@johnjohnston http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover #indieweb stuff thinking about #glowscot #domaineofonesown silos and more (twitter.com/_/status/462692010697449472)
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KevinMarks I think the logo is different enough, but draws on some of the same resonances
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KevinMarks it also reminds me of something else, like spy vs spy
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KevinMarks maybe the hole in the middle can have james bond shoot out of it
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@petermolnar http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths one of the most demoralizing lists of the internet: dead web services. https://petermolnar.eu/linux-tech-coding/ (twitter.com/_/status/462700499569868800)
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aaronpk every time I type "endpoint" I keep thinking of this http://hueniversedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/my-endpoints.png?w=1008
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KartikPrabhu lol
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aaronparecki.com edited /auth-brainstorming (+236) (view diff)
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aaronpk interesting that google's openid connect implementation actually provides two ways of verifying the id tokens, one by verifying the JWT signature, and they also provide an API so you can verify w/o crypto
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aaronpk "What does authentication mean? The process of establishing and communicating that the person operating a browser or native app is who they claim to be." http://openid.net/connect/faq/
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aaronparecki.com edited /auth-brainstorming (+80) (view diff)
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aaronpk !date
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Loqi Now: 2014-05-03 15:20:08 PDT Unixtime: 1399155608 NewCal: 2014-2-2, New Wednesday, the 2nd day of the second bim
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aaronpk thanks loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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kbs aaronpk: shall I go ahead and excise my notes section from /auth-brainstorming? It was mostly a place to record my notes - doesn't seem very relevant to the current state of your work and the wiki page
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@JessiGage Wolf-man desperately seeking female of breeding age. #giveaway for ebook & gift card. #mywana #freebooks #indieauth http://jessigage.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/get-your-very-own-bearded-virgin-starting-today/ (twitter.com/_/status/462720495389925376)
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aaronpk kbs: sure, or feel free to move to another page if you think it may be useful for something in the future
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kbs aaronpk: okay, sounds good. I have it locally, and if somethnig suitable comes up in future I'll push it out again. Nice going btw - been looking at the logs once in a while :)
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk yeah i'm trying to get this sorted out today and tomorrow, and to push an update to the indieauth.com home page accordingly
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kbs great - I know you're trying to get things in shape for IIW - good luck and hope it catches on!
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aaronpk still wrestling with openid connect
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aaronpk there's a lot of good stuff there, and I'd like to use it if possible, but it all seems somewhat overcomplicated and definitely covers way more use cases than we need
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aaronpk I just know that the first thing people will ask at IIW is "how is this different from OpenID Connect" and "why didn't you just use OpenID Connect?"
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kbs aah, okay :) I haven't worked with openid unfortunately
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kbs not much idea about the overlap. (FWIW, best part of your implementation [to me anyway] is the use of JWT - it's a pretty elegant way to think about what it's really doing.) Hope you're able to get a few more converts regardless :)
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kbsriram.com edited /auth-brainstorming () "(-2549) remove notes, maybe reuse later" (view diff)
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aaronpk the crazy thing is openid connect pretty much dropped all past attempts and is built on top of OAuth 2.0 now
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aaronpk and also makes heavy use of JWT
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kbs Oh, didn't know that - huh, interesting.
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aaronpk yeah that's why I feel a little bad about doing something slightly different (although much simpler) than OpenID Connect that is *also* built on top of OAuth 2
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kbs well - as usual, probably best to let the vox populi have the last word and not worry too much about (potentially competing) ideas :)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronparecki.com edited /auth-brainstorming (+952) "add info about verifying access tokens" (view diff)
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@StoryandLogic RT @JessiGage: Wolf-man desperately seeking female of breeding age. #giveaway for ebook & gift card. #mywana #freebooks #indieauth http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/462729213590925312)
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aaronpk oh man how can I block those
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aaronpk maybe ebook?
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KartikPrabhu wolfman?
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aaronpk hoping to block more than just that tweet
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KartikPrabhu oh i think people are using indeauth for independent author
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aaronpk yeah
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KartikPrabhu and that looks like an awful book
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KartikPrabhu how about blocking #freebooks?
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aaronpk before I blocked #indieauth… (ellipsis char) we were getting a ton cause RTs would truncate "#indieauthor" to "#indieauth…"
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KevinMarks That these Auth schemes converge isn't a bad thing
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KevinMarks Also, you made indieauth compatible with openid 1 & 2, which they didn't
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aaronpk KevinMarks: agreed, which is why i'm hesitant to do things too different from openid connect, like naming things differently
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aaronpk for example "me" and "client_id" vs "sub" and "aud" http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming#Verifying_access_tokens
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aaronpk "sub" and "aud" being the OpenID Connect terms
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KartikPrabhu errgh! why such unreadable names!
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aaronpk see what i mean!
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aaronpk is it bad that I want it to be a more understandable term?
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KartikPrabhu nope. i couldn't even guess what "aud" is short for~
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk audience
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KartikPrabhu oh! :/
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aaronpk http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-basic-1_0.html##MUST+contain+the+OAuth+2.0+client_id
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aaronpk "aud: REQUIRED. Audience(s) that this ID Token is intended for. It MUST contain the OAuth 2.0 client_id of the Relying Party as an audience value."
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KartikPrabhu so many properties/tokens with unreadable acronyms
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aaronparecki.com created /login-brainstorming (+3287) "add simple login example without authorization" (view diff)
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aaronpk this one is simpler and doesn't involve a token or micropub endpoint just to sign someone in to the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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aaronpk bret: wanna make a similar diagram? :D
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bret sure!
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aaronpk cool! should be much smaller
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aaronpk k i'm out for a while, ttyl!
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bret cool!
caseorganic joined the channel