2014-05-04 UTC
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# 00:50 GWG Still trying to decide what to do about Bridgy. Still can't get Facebook to work, and I'm not sure how I can pull back the Syndication URLs. # 01:04 snarfed i think i saw at least one publish go through for you # 01:04 snarfed have you tried jetpack publicize or mailchimp social? # 01:05 GWG snarfed: I was using Nextscript SNAP # 01:05 GWG It worked fine for Facebook, but kept truncating my tweets # 01:06 GWG Jetpack Publicize wasn't customizable, from what I could see # 01:07 snarfed but definitely let me know if you have any specific bridgy q's # 01:07 GWG snarfed: I was trying to switch to Bridgy for publishing. # 01:07 GWG snarfed: But none of the Facebook posts went through. I ended up manually posting them. # 01:08 snarfed yeah, so frustrating. exact same code with a different fb app key can publish to fb fine j12t joined the channel
# 01:11 GWG My goal in mentioning it is offering to test if you ever think there is a solution. # 01:12 snarfed thanks for the offer, i'll definitely let you know # 01:16 GWG The other question was that if I publish with Brid.gy, how do I get the syndication URL back? # 01:18 GWG Have to figure out how to get Wordpress to process that info into a post-meta field. # 01:19 snarfed true! you'll probably need to patch pfefferle's wordpress-webmention plugin, since it gets the response # 01:23 GWG Can you get the response again separately? # 01:26 GWG If I posted source as the post, and target as publish/___ would it return the json again? dybskiy, dybskiy_, fmarier and paulcp joined the channel
# 01:39 snarfed oh, no, it complains, since the expected behavior is to update the published post, and it doesn't support that yet # 01:40 GWG So, I have to look at the Wordpress webmention code and propose it store the data somewhere # 01:40 snarfed if you really don't want to handle the response, you could scrape your bridgy user page, follow the log link, and extract it from there fmarier joined the channel
# 01:40 GWG What I'm trying to figure out is a proposed design # 01:41 GWG What other use case is caching the webmention response in post-meta-data # 01:41 snarfed eh, there's no standard for webmention response format yet # 01:42 GWG Then it seems bad to propose it be in the webmention plugin without some clearer goal # 01:43 snarfed nah, storing the response is totally reasonable and generic # 01:43 snarfed and then your theme or separate plugin would handle it # 01:44 snarfed also, non-bridgy-publish webmentions wouldn't return syndication urls anyway, since they're not creating syndicated copies, so special casing bridgy is reasonable for that case # 01:46 GWG I'm starting by noting it as an 'issue' in the plugin. See if I can figure it out. Parsing is a weak point of mine. # 01:53 kylewm GWG: you get error 500's from bridgy publish to facebook too? cc: snarfed # 01:54 snarfed yeah, sad. clearly it's specific to the bridgy fb app id if your instance worked ok, kylewm # 01:57 GWG I've filed an issue against the Webmention Wordpress plugin # 01:57 GWG kylewm: I've gone back to SNAP for now # 01:59 GWG I had this idea of an unofficial Bridgy plugin # 02:03 GWG 1. Add checkboxes to add in the link to the endpoint. # 02:03 GWG 2. Create special post types that will format the content editor for replies, rsvps, etc. # 02:05 GWG It wouldn't be purely for Bridgy. The automatic marking up would work for more than Bridgy. # 02:07 GWG It shouldn't be incredibly hard to add options to the Wordpress post editor. # 02:08 kylewm KartikPrabhu: how much thought have you given to backcompat stuff for mf2py? # 02:08 GWG For now, I think I'll go with the simple option # 02:10 kylewm GWG: I've been thinking it would be cool to somehow replace the bri.dgy/publish links with u-syndication links after webmentions are sent # 02:13 snarfed right, ideally you'd add the syndication urls and keep the publish links too # 02:13 snarfed but that will only matter after bridgy actually supports updating :P # 02:13 GWG Well, why design something that needs to be fixed later? dybskiy joined the channel
# 02:16 kylewm !tell KartikPrabhu I'm thinking about porting backward compatibility stuff from php-mf2 to mf2py, let me know if you've already started or have thoughts about how it should be done! # 02:16 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next paulcp joined the channel
# 02:43 GWG I'm still annoyed Wordpress took out the link class box in their TInyMCE editor. # 03:00 GWG So, I've overloaded the Link Post Format as a Reply-To. But that is only a half-solution. # 03:05 GWG The only solution is Custom Post Types, which is what I thought. Oh, well. paulcp and krendil joined the channel
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# 05:05 GWG Hmm...I think I found my explanation. # 05:05 GWG You can put a default styling into the plugin to use if the theme doesn't have support. paulcp and kyank joined the channel
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# 06:31 aaronpk if you refresh the page you get all your lives back # 06:34 aaronpk i'm super upset at myself that I somehow managed to lose a year's worth of photos I took with my flip phone in 2007 # 06:34 aaronpk i had published them on my site in a neat calendar view basal joined the channel
# 06:39 kyank Bummer, aaronpk. # 06:44 aaronpk i feel like i have to go through a period of mourning for this # 06:44 aaronpk i've searched through my old backups of backups of old servers, but it's not turning up anywhere # 06:46 aaronpk I took a photo of myself every day with my flip phone camera in a situation that was unique to that day # 06:46 aaronpk and i had a web page on aaronparecki.com that showed all the photos in a calendar view # 07:02 KartikPrabhu !tell kylewm: the way mf2py does backcompatibility stuff is to just look for old classes and add new ones. I don't know a better way to do it. Porting the way php-mf2 does it would be a good start # 07:02 Loqi KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 4 hours, 46 minutes ago: I'm thinking about porting backward compatibility stuff from php-mf2 to mf2py, let me know if you've already started or have thoughts about how it should be done! # 07:02 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next hallettj joined the channel
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# 12:37 pdurbin bummer. :( I've definitely heard it argued that Facebook, Google, and other big companies are better keepers of data (including backups, etc.) than the average computer user. bret joined the channel
# 13:13 pdurbin "Centralization of data and computation (aka power) is a recent phenomenon. It doesn't have to be so # 13:13 Loqi [@cemerick] Centralization of data and computation (aka power) is a recent phenomenon. It doesn't have to be so paulcp joined the channel
# 13:22 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next LauraJ, eschnou, bnvk and barnabywalters joined the channel
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# 14:49 GWG I've found a good reason to leave data in a silo. # 15:07 kylewm has anyone written a plugin/bookmarklet to show you if the current page has webmentions/microformats/pingbacks/etc.? # 15:07 Loqi kylewm: KartikPrabhu left you a message 8 hours, 4 minutes ago: the way mf2py does backcompatibility stuff is to just look for old classes and add new ones. I don't know a better way to do it. Porting the way php-mf2 does it would be a good start # 15:08 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next # 15:10 GWG kylewm: That note you posted last night. I wish you hadn't. # 15:11 kylewm morning GWG. the note about importing old stuff? # 15:12 GWG Or rather...not realizing it would autopost as new was a stupid thing # 15:12 GWG I'm feeling some things should stay in their silos. # 15:13 kylewm ha, I know what you mean. At least until we have proper privacy controls on our sites # 15:13 GWG Like how frustrated I felt for a while in 2005 # 15:14 GWG I may have killed the Facebook and Twitter versions, and unpublished the web versions. # 15:14 GWG I even logged into my mother's email account, where she gets Facebook notices and deleted them all. # 15:15 GWG I'm mentioning this because this may be an indieweb conversation paulcp, netweb and snarfed joined the channel
# 15:27 kylewm yes, maybe a good argument for manual syndication # 15:29 kylewm wow, facebook sending notifications to my mom about early 00's livejournal posts is a nightmare I never even considered ;) # 15:46 aaronpk kyank: thanks but that's actually a different old set of photos (which is still online at a different URL) # 15:48 aaronpk the project was called "phlog" (like blog and vlog but for photos, get it?) kbs joined the channel
# 15:49 aaronpk I'd take a photo with the front-facing camera of my flip phone, and the front (color) LCD screen was enough to crop a selfie and make it look nice # 15:50 aaronpk then I'd MMS the photo to an email address that routed to my server and it posted it on my site # 15:51 kbs (loss of photos, in case that wasn't clear...) snarfed joined the channel
# 15:55 snarfed so, webmention question. if a post includes a URL in plain text, but not linked…does that warrant sending a webmention to that URL? # 15:55 snarfed i expect most targets check for an actual link, not just text, so they'd reject it. but still…? # 15:57 voxpelli snarfed: I would say no. If the sender can identify it as a URL then it should also link it # 15:59 kbs essentially, no longer requiring webmentions to originate from text/html content :) # 15:59 kbs begins to wonder about jpeg files and whatnot # 16:01 voxpelli snarfed: URL:s in code snippets can be links and if they after all feel it shouldn't be a link then I can't see why it would be a mention # 16:05 kbs snarfed: :) in some ideal world, I like your idea of permitting any "understandable" content to be webmentioned # 16:05 kbs though (as you indicated) having everyone parse such content might be the stumbling block. I guess with bridgy, you already have the ability to convert any content to a html page anyway, so... # 16:05 snarfed heh. silo posts are a far cry from "any content," but i appreciate the spirit # 16:06 kylewm datapoint: in the status.net world, people intentionally escape periods to prevent urls from being linkified # 16:06 kylewm which makes me think there is some intentionality in including a url that is not a link # 16:08 snarfed yeah, i've done it before for API endpoint URLs that don't show anything useful when you GET them # 16:08 snarfed but to voxpelli's point, it's a really specific narrow case, so meh # 16:13 snarfed i highly doubt it, since i don't expect any current implementations support data: uris # 16:16 kbs is still too chicken to add content automatically to anything bret and paulcp joined the channel
# 16:21 kbs I archive locally quite a lot though -- sort of ESSOPing I guess # 16:24 GWG Nothing recent on the site though. # 16:25 kbs my site you mean? yea - I rarely publish anything, mostly just pull things from facebook, flickr etc and archive locally. Mostly my friends/family stuff # 16:26 kbs Avoids the (for me) trauma of dealing with facebook, and lets me enjoy the pictures and things peacefully offline # 16:27 kbs 's notion of identity and indie is a bit weird :) # 16:28 GWG kbs: I have some things I want to explore with that. # 16:29 kbs cool, as am I - be great to exchange notes and ideas. I'm much happier archiving things on storage that I own # 16:29 kbs and don't have a great desire (yet?) to publish things publicly, though I do have a few things that publish things privately to my circle of friends etc # 16:31 kbs dunno :) what GWG said - the backwards flow of POSSE - I pull content from silos my friends publish, locally to me # 16:31 kylewm PETAL: publish elsewhere then archive locally # 16:31 GWG This is an interesting question though # 16:32 GWG Has any in the indieweb movement talked about limiting your posts to a subset of the community? # 16:32 kbs heh :) it's also stuff that I don't publish myself # 16:32 GWG Indieweb posts are public by default # 16:32 kbs yes - aaronpk has been working on this quite a bit (as have I, but with a different angle.) *looks at urls* # 16:34 GWG The thing is that people want to silo certain things. Not in a corporate silo, but as in insulating it # 16:36 kbs right - I think you could ping aaronpk and also maybe the /indieweb-messaging page for (acl-type) access control - it would fit the bill for a lot of needs i think # 16:36 GWG For me, I follow the thought that anything I post is public. # 16:37 kylewm GWG, I know for example that aaronpk can post private messages on his site, and the intended recipient will only see them if they are logged in with their url # 16:38 GWG kylewm: I have other things to do first. # 16:39 kylewm I'm surprised wordpress doesn't have privacy tools already? # 16:41 GWG You can have private/password protected posts # 16:41 GWG But, I want to play with photo-sharing more. # 16:43 kbs having played with photo sharing for longer than I care to admit :) save/archive photos locally - it's the least worst way to protect 'em # 16:43 GWG I have a service, but I also keep a local copy. # 16:44 kbs of other people's photos as well? nice # 16:44 GWG Why do I need other people's photos? # 16:44 GWG I suppose if I wanted them, I'd add them too # 16:45 kbs perhaps because of my intrinsically boring nature, I find pictures of my friends and family much more interesting than mine :) # 16:45 kbs it's also tied in with what 'identity' means, philosophically... # 16:45 GWG kbs: I rarely appear in any picture # 16:46 kbs if my buddy takes pictures during a joint hiking trip - I still want to have a copy of pictures of the trip - the memories I have are about the trip, less about who took them # 16:47 GWG kbs: I might do that if I thought it was relevant to me # 16:48 kbs right - more about why most of the pics I found interesting tend to be taken by, and of other people I guess... # 16:51 kbs ends up treats most online services as a transient message-passing system :) grab the data as quickly as it's available! # 16:54 GWG Most people do not seem to want to provide insightful dialogue responses. # 16:54 GWG The bulk of my responses are them clicking a button. # 16:56 kbs yea, I see what you mean... I don't archive anything other than pictures [and emails] - the likes are just line-noise pretty much # 16:56 kbs though I'm starting to think that maybe I should archive comments. [I also don't really draw a distinction between comments on 'my' pictures and pictures shared with 'me'] # 16:57 kbs waves hands wildly trying to make some esoteric point, and then stops sheepishly :) # 16:57 GWG "Like" seems to indicate..."I Saw This" # 17:08 kbs interesting - think (because of my notion of my identity formed out of interactions with people) I see lots of reposts and replies - just not around content that I've initially created... # 17:09 GWG Well, I've been working on comment I've initially created, but next I do have to start working on responding to others # 17:10 kbs oh, gotcha :) sorry, head was somewhere else # 17:15 aaronpk GWG: kylewm: yeah my posts can have an ACL on them so only the intended recipients can see them # 17:16 aaronpk when the ACL indicates only one other person that's basically a private message. but it supports multiple recipients too. # 17:16 aaronpk i think I shared a map of myself arriving in real time to tantek and barnaby a few months ago paulcp joined the channel
# 17:20 aaronpk I also want to be able to specify the ACL of a post by linking to a URL that has a bunch of h-cards # 17:22 GWG My next projects would be: Photos/Images and Custom Post Types in Wordpress # 17:25 GWG I need to figure out the types/taxonomies. # 17:26 GWG And it is not just a schema issue. Once you have the schema and have implemented it, you need to implement the posting UI, then the default theming UI # 17:27 GWG I've been reading up on best practices for such a design and it would be a big project. Hoping to find someone to help me...not with the coding exactly, but with the schema. # 17:31 GWG aaronpk: I'm looking for post types like "Reply", "Event/RSVP" that would make entering that easier. # 17:31 GWG I need to sit down, design it, and get some feedback before implementing it # 17:32 GWG aaronpk: I'll likely write up a page somewhere and post it in here for feedback. Even non-Wordpress people might have ideas on a post UI # 17:32 snarfed kylewm: soft launched blog providers on bridgy, feel free to retry your wp.com account emmak joined the channel
# 17:41 snarfed still looking for how to add the rel-webmention link to a wp.com blog dybskiy joined the channel
# 17:44 kylewm snarfed: not totally unrelated, I was working on backward compatibility stuff for mf2py last night # 17:44 kylewm a lot of blogger and wordpress themes seem to have mf1 markup # 17:46 kylewm so it's possible to comment on my site now from wordpress.com, but the comment is super ugly # 17:47 aaronpk I was able to add this to the "First Footer Widget Area" on my wordpress.com blog <a href="https://webmention.io/aaronpk/webmention" rel="webmention"></a> # 17:48 aaronpk adding <link href="https://webmention.io/aaronpk/webmention" rel="webmention"/> made wordpress escape it thinking I wanted it to be text # 17:49 snarfed kylewm: whoa, agreed, that is ugly. right now you'll need to hand-author mf2 inside the wp.com post, e.g. e-content # 17:50 kylewm huh, atm that would give me an e-content inside an e-content (entry-content is augmented with e-content by the backcompat converter) # 17:51 kylewm snarfed: what does rel="webmention" on a wordpress.com blog give you, in terms of bridgy? # 17:52 kylewm oohhh, got it. i was confused. that's kind of the whole point right? # 17:54 snarfed kylewm: if you want to try it, you'll want this in a text widget: <link rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"> # 17:58 snarfed aaronpk: sadly i don't know that many (any?) current webmention discovery implementations support normal links :/ # 18:03 kylewm huh, wp.com strips out that link tag in a text widget # 18:03 kylewm is that what you were saying was the problem? paulcp joined the channel
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# 19:00 kylewm snarfed: aaronpk: any reason not to push for rel='webmention' to be allowed in <a>'s? # 19:02 voxpelli kylewm: only one I can think of is that if a user would click that link then they are likely to not receive any proper response, as the endpoint is purely meant for machines # 19:03 voxpelli That's easy to circumvent though and a nice instruction page response could actually help discoverability of webmention support # 19:05 kylewm voxpelli: great point, I had been wondering what the criteria was for <link>-only vs <link> or <a> rel values on the microformats wiki # 19:07 GWG voxpelli: It was the first thing I recognized. # 19:09 snarfed easy to make them invisible, e.g. <a href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress" rel="webmention"></a> # 19:11 GWG snarfed: For some reason, the Wordpress editor removes empty links. # 19:11 voxpelli snarfed: feels a bit dirty though, much better if it can be visible as that's what a-tags are for # 19:11 snarfed GWG: maybe so, but not in text widgets, and you're not going to be putting this one in every post tantek joined the channel
# 19:13 Loqi tantek: bnvk left you a message 1 day, 6 hours ago: really great slide show, especially love the matrix silo images ;) # 19:16 snarfed voxpelli: true! and i respectfully disagree. but that's just me :P # 19:16 snarfed this is a perfect example. webmention discovery links in <link>s and http headers are invisible. seems odd that they should have to be visible just because put them in an a tag niven joined the channel
# 19:18 voxpelli snarfed: if they can be visible, any reason they shouldn't be? :) # 19:18 snarfed personal preference. we all style our sites differently, right? # 19:21 snarfed for links that are actual UX, sure. the rel attribute also helps there. this wouldn't be UX, though. # 19:23 snarfed not a big deal either way though. the more important part is putting it in the webmention spec. i'll send a PR to do that soon # 19:24 voxpelli I've made a note about adding a nice page to my endpoint for those who click through so that also visible links works :) bnvk and eschnou joined the channel
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# 19:48 tantek snarfed, voxpelli webmention link discovery is like a link to a stylesheet. It's basically machine only. There's no actual user data there. # 19:49 aaronpk tantek: we were talkinga bout adding a rel webmention link to wordpress.com blogs # 19:49 aaronpk there's a way to add "custom html" but it turns out they strip <link> tags # 19:50 tantek Aaronpk I like your visible endpoint that teaches! # 19:50 tantek Any chance of putting up a similar page for webmention.io's endpoint? # 19:52 tantek I might even put a link like a "this blog <a rel=webmention>supports webmention</a>" in my sidebar or footer. # 19:52 tantek Which then makes it useful for both humans and machines! # 19:53 tantek Plus it helps educate folks about indieweb tech. friedcell and iangreenleaf joined the channel
# 20:14 GWG aaronpk: I would too. Along with the Analytics disclosure that Jeremy Zilar was showing and we were discussion at Indiewebcamp NYC # 20:19 GWG What do you call that? Disclosures? # 20:20 GWG aaronpk: The Analytics thing was the subject of some debate in the room. paulcp joined the channel
# 20:24 aaronpk are there many notes from that discussion from NYC? # 20:24 GWG Tantek was taking notes and posting them # 20:24 GWG I can tell you what I remember about it. # 20:32 GWG Several of us at the table commented on it. friedcell joined the channel
# 20:32 GWG I remember commenting on the issue of proper disclosure and referring to the EU Cookie Policy that pops up on European sites. # 20:34 GWG The basic question that I was focusing on was how do you disclose without being intrusive and without being too subtle. krendil joined the channel
# 20:40 aaronpk !tell tantek do you think it would be worth going to IIW for just Tuesday? I *might* be able to sneak out for a day to do that # 20:40 Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next j12t and tantek joined the channel
# 20:51 Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 10 minutes ago: do you think it would be worth going to IIW for just Tuesday? I *might* be able to sneak out for a day to do that # 20:52 tantek Who here is going to IIW and for what purpose(s)? # 20:53 aaronpk i need to make a nicer formatted version of it, it's kinda ugly # 20:55 aaronpk well I think it would be interesting to hear feedback on indieauth as it's been evolving and turning into a lot like openid connect # 20:56 GWG tantek: Where in the world today? # 20:57 aaronpk not sure if any of the openid people will be there # 20:58 tantek aaronpk: Feedback good. Just don't let the open is connect folks distract you with their enterprise plumbing focused ways, framing, mindsets. # 20:59 aaronpk I think I am somewhat reslient to that now given that I am seeing enterprise first hand now # 20:59 tantek aaronpk: Do not underestimate the dark side of protocols standards work. # 21:00 tantek Then IIW would be good for you, just so you can witness (and document!) so many anti-patterns in person. # 21:01 tantek See if you can go and come out with your principles unscathed by groupthink pressures. I should say group talk, since rarely does that crowd actually ship anything. # 21:04 aaronpk I've also been struggling a lot this weekend trying to see if OpenID Connect really is just the same thing # 21:06 tantek It's a google enterprisey thing which even they don't care about in actual products. # 21:07 tantek No it's not. You can't use a different provider to sign in and use google services. # 21:07 aaronpk the thing I did notice reading the spec is that it too is somewhat under-specified, just like OAuth 2 # 21:07 aaronpk which is why G+ can call it openid connect and yet no other implementaitons can interoperate # 21:08 tantek Of course. So they slap proprietary stuff on top. And only theirs works with their services. # 21:08 tantek So yeah, it's a classic Google "standards" antipattern. # 21:11 aaronpk not this week! esripdx office warming party on wednesday night! # 21:11 GWG tantek: Depressing, isn't it? And I like Google. tantek-ipod joined the channel
# 21:13 tantek-ipod GWG: Not depressing. Just consistent. Silos don't care about federation. They lack the incentive. # 21:17 GWG tantek: I'm still annoyed they are turning off XMPP # 21:18 GWG KartikPrabhu: I fear one day...no Pidgin # 21:19 GWG I'm not against webclients, but Google doesn't offer a multi-account Hangout client that I can pop out of the browser paulcp and tantek joined the channel
# 21:29 aaronpk also google is so smart to pull out my flight details and show it in the top of the email, but doesn't give me an option to add to my calendar # 21:29 tantek yeah, seriously, what's with the CamelCasing of UserName?!? ;) # 21:30 tantek aaronpk - just goes to show that kind of stuff "pull out my flight details and show it in the top of the email" is just a half-assed zero-follow-up hack. # 21:33 tantek we've been naming and shaming this practice for years ;) # 21:46 aaronpk i'm glad they at least have somewhat reasonable student pricing # 21:47 tantek looks like benwerd and erinjo are going to be there too - so you won't be alone aaronpk. # 21:49 tantek I vaguely remember Benwerd saying he will be demoing idno # 21:53 GWG I need to find more conferences like Indiewebcamp # 21:55 tantek GWG - that's how you know we're not messing around # 21:55 GWG tantek: If there is or isn't a fee? # 21:55 tantek productive conferences use proof-of-work as a barrier to entry, not entrance fees. # 21:55 GWG tantek: I was thinking of Wordcamp maybe # 21:55 GWG $40 is reasonable to cover the venue # 21:56 tantek the higher the fee, the higher the density of "enterprise" folks who will trade $ for getting to hang out with people more knowledgable than them # 22:05 GWG Probably not going to happen though # 22:10 tantek I'm hoping that the IndieWeb folks that are going can document all the anti-patterns they see # 22:11 aaronpk looks like it'll be benwerd, erinjo, j12t and myself? # 22:14 tantek GWG, or we could add a "no personal domain" option to attending IndieWebCamp that costs as much as the fee to attend IIW. # 22:15 tantek sorry, a "no personal domain indieauth" option, to be clear. # 22:15 tantek if they have a personal domain but can't be bothered to setup indieauth, then they can pay. # 22:17 aaronpk tantek: speaking of indieauth, i'm curious to hear your thoughts on this # 22:18 aaronpk the most simple setup instructions may need to change soon # 22:19 tantek really? more than just relmeauth instructions? # 22:19 aaronpk in addition to the rel=me links, you will need to delegate to an indieauth server # 22:20 tantek no - every client just does the indieauth algorithm # 22:20 aaronpk alternatively, the indieauth spec could say that if no authorization endpoint is defined by the user signing in, the client gets to choose # 22:21 aaronpk it's been mentioned a few times in IRC, and may be on github, let me check # 22:21 tantek e.g. my site does not use indieauth.com to auth-in # 22:22 tantek the way I see it, unless it's been documented on the wiki, it's not really worth of the label "in practice" # 22:23 aaronpk ok then more specifically, the problem people are seeing is that the wiki right now relies on indieauth.com, rather than individual people delegating to indieauth.com paulcp joined the channel
# 22:24 tantek sites would "normally" just use their own indieauth/relmeauth library to do the auth themselves. # 22:24 tantek using a 3rd party service is just a shim for that # 22:25 tantek I'm going to pushback on any additional publisher requirements or even requests # 22:25 tantek unless there is a very well documented use-case that it solves # 22:25 tantek the openid people went down this path of arbitrary extensibility / delegation and see where it got them # 22:26 tantek without well documented use-case(s), it's architecture astronomy # 22:27 tantek forget limitation - answer the question "what's the use case? what user feature are you trying to enable?" # 22:28 aaronpk the wiki uses indieauth.com as the implementation, which has support for twitter.com and github.com logins # 22:28 aaronpk user bob.com wants to sign in to the wiki but doesn't have a twitter or github account # 22:28 aaronpk the only way for bob.com to sign in is to sign up for twitter or github # 22:29 aaronpk that is the current state of things, which is not necessarily ideal although works out fine in practice because indieauth.com implements enough auth providers that people usually have an account there # 22:29 tantek let me know when someone has a real world example of a personal site that rel=me to a site that indieauth.com does not support # 22:29 tantek forgot "say … links to" - show me a real world example # 22:30 tantek if there are zero people this impacts, it's not worth the effort # 22:30 tantek until then, let's focus on real world use-cases # 22:30 tantek I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying backburner it until someone comes forth with a real world example # 22:30 aaronpk if that is the stance, then it all of a sudden becomes critical to rely on common silos # 22:31 tantek or just pop in here and ask if indieauth could support NewSilo™ tommorris joined the channel
# 22:31 aaronpk silos that are at least common enough that the wiki and bob.com have in common # 22:31 tantek like I said, until someone comes up with a real world example, I claim there's no such reliance # 22:31 tantek it's just a reflection of what people already use and link to on their home pages # 22:32 tantek btw IIW folks are *very good* at arguing such hypotheticals # 22:32 aaronpk but that's really no better of a system than stackoverflow implementing nascar buttons for silos # 22:32 aaronpk there is, it's just moved off to indieauth.com rather than on the wiki # 22:33 tantek only buttons for methods the user *already decided to link to from their own site* # 22:33 tantek since there is the key step of user choice involved # 22:33 tantek nope, not NASCAR at all, because the user isn't being confronted with an unfamilar logo grid # 22:33 GWG Trying to create that disclosures page # 22:34 tantek I created it while jeremyz was demoing his site # 22:34 tantek when the user is just shown a list of stuff *they already put on their site*, it's not NASCAR, it's call respecting user preferences # 22:34 tantek it's listening to the user (by looking at their site), instead of pushing crap at the user # 22:35 aaronpk ok that's fine, but it still doesn't actually address the issue of not actually relying on silos # 22:35 GWG That was the change I wanted to make # 22:36 GWG tantek: We were discussing a disclosure earlier for the usage of webmentions # 22:36 tantek aaronpk - the reliance on silos is ephemeral - which is ok # 22:36 tantek there is no *persistent* reliance on any one silo, that's the key # 22:38 aaronpk if I'm signing in to my own site, why should I be relying on twitter or github? # 22:43 tantek GWG better to document current state of the art first, before brainstorming how to incrementally improve it # 22:44 aaronpk so where i'm going with this, is each indieweb site should be able to specify an auth server to useif it wants # 22:44 tantek how about start with, *you* want to be able to specify your own auth server # 22:45 tantek because when you document your personal reasons for wanting that, then it makes more concrete sense # 22:45 aaronpk as a person with my own site, I want to specify my own auth server # 22:45 GWG tantek: I don't like to scratch alone # 22:45 aaronpk as someone who has implemented many "apps", I also want to be able to delegate auth for those apps to other services so I don't have to write the same code all the time # 22:46 tantek no one said you had to scratch alone, just that you should focus on scratching *your* itches first before others # 22:46 tantek sure, let's document in the personal site use case first # 22:46 GWG tantek: I find telling others about what I'm thinking of helps me work it out. # 22:46 tantek GWG, yes you can and should brainstorm about what you want out loud # 22:48 GWG The next is on my own page, setting up a proposal for a custom post type/taxonomy in Wordpress for certain concepts. # 22:49 tantek GWG take a look at the post types here: indiewebcamp.com/posts # 22:50 GWG tantek: I have. But I have to figure out how to do it within the Wordpress framework. Basically, Posts are Articles # 22:50 GWG Correction. Wordpress Posts are Articles # 22:51 tantek and then add a "Brainstorming" section where you document the use-case of signing-into your own website that you want to solve # 22:53 aaronpk ok I think the cognitive dissonance i've been experiencing is from the desire for indieauth.com to be both a user tool and a developer tool fmarier joined the channel
# 23:09 GWG aaronpk: Does this make sense to you? # 23:10 GWG This is all about how to abstract the Indieweb types in as few types as possible # 23:22 bret Ok, so I have the very beginnings of a micrpub endpoint deploying to remote git repos # 23:24 bret and it runs for free on heroku other paas paulcp joined the channel
# 23:25 bret so far its just clones and or pulls on start up, and a function to create a new post file, add it, commit and push # 23:30 bret sweet and now ownyourgram has a token # 23:52 bret we should add some examples of valid curl POST commands for micropub
snarfed good question, the response is json and has a url field. https://www.brid.gy/about#response
@IdentityWoman . @aral Reference sources and inspiration. IndieWeb efforts and many others deserve credit eg/ http://asn.planetwork.net http://www.1962paper.org/web.html (twitter.com/_/status/462784560992768002)
JonathanNeal If you’re up and want to test the konami code right now http://www.chapman.edu/index.aspx
KartikPrabhu !tell kylewm: the way mf2py does backcompatibility stuff is to just look for old classes and add new ones. I don't know a better way to do it. Porting the way php-mf2 does it would be a good start
pdurbin people are working on change. #TtW14" -- https://twitter.com/cemerick/status/459862156587315200
Loqi people are working on change. #TtW14 (http://twtr.io/kcu1yEh0tL)
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: good question
kylewm !tell KartikPrabhu thanks! follow up in #microformats http://logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=today#c71614a
kbs apropos of nothing at all, does setting target=data:text/html,... in a webmention actually work? [vaguely related to http://werd.io/2014/im-thinking-about-adding-comments-what-do-you-like-indieweb and the bar to add comments]
aaronpk so I could write a post that was visible to all the indieweb people by specifying the group as http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
@benwerd Also: booking flights & hotel for #indiewebcamp Portland today. Hotel recommendations would be very welcome. (twitter.com/_/status/463018567240130560)
voxpelli snarfed: eg the microformats community has generally disliked hidden content at least: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Hidden_Content
GWG http://silencematters.com/ - In the lower left.
@windley Join us for IIW XVIII starting Tuesday https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xviii-18-2014a-tickets-10266396067 #identity #vrm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463052403667787776)
@kevinmarks RT @windley: Join us for IIW XVIII starting Tuesday https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xviii-18-2014a-tickets-10266396067 #identity #vrm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463054120241229824)
@AxelNennker RT @windley: Join us for IIW XVIII starting Tuesday https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xviii-18-2014a-tickets-10266396067 #identity #vrm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463057363910819842)
tantek Note /disclosure is already there. When in doubt, search for it on the wiki.
@FamilyCTO RT @windley: Join us for IIW XVIII starting Tuesday https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xviii-18-2014a-tickets-10266396067 #identity #vrm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/463060162765287424)
tantek.com edited /monoculture (+135) "/* Blog posts */ add Github monoculture blog post, format a bit better" (view diff)
david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (+976) "/* Wordpress Custom Post Types Planning */" (view diff)
@generic_brian I am yet again a little too excited to see crap on my server. Django based #indieweb project 500 page! w00t! https://twitter.com/generic_brian/status/463100433397846017/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/463100433397846017)
aaronparecki.com edited /micropub (+311) "/* New Note */ add minimal example with curl command" (view diff)