#indiewebcamp 2014-05-08

2014-05-08 UTC
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tantek
!tell benwerd that is awesome!!! (setting up IIW folks in person). The IndieWebologist is IN. :D
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
Now displaying Facebook likes (scroll down): http://gregorlove.com/2014/01/1178/#comments
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silencematters.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+313) "/* East */"
(view diff)
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snarfed
nice work gRegor`!
indie-visitor joined the channel
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor
jeremyzilar
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KevinMarks
Benwerd tell them about your indie web vending
jeremyzilar joined the channel
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tantek
and boom IndieWebCamp 2014 East passes West in number of RSVPs
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tantek
!tell aaronpk, caseorganic, benwerd and boom IndieWebCamp 2014 East passes West in number of RSVPs, 5 to 4. You gonna let that stand? Let's see if West can bring in the RSVPs before East pulls further ahead. ;)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rascul
ooo maybe i can make that one
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+48) "/* Displaying webmentions */ example"
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@indiewebcamp
RT @benwerd: If you're an #iiw participant without your own website, I would love to set you up with your own domain and #indieweb site tom…
(twitter.com/_/status/464201070479032321)
quinn_ joined the channel
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gRegor`
Signing off for Chicago HWC
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@lightcoin
RT @benwerd: If you're an #iiw participant without your own website, I would love to set you up with your own domain and #indieweb site tom…
(twitter.com/_/status/464208991598297090)
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tantek
greetings #indiewebcamp from @MozSF!
ben_thatmust, tantek and strand joined the channel
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strand
Ahoy, is there a homebrew website club tonight?
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strand
Nevermind, just got in.
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tantek
been reviewing past two weeks of stuff
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tantek
Andi: I have a design org called CascadeSF in the city
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tantek
Andi: I have to create a new site and was just debating what framework to use to set it up
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tantek
Darius: I got a complaint from my webhost that I was using too much CPU - and have no idea what is causing it. A few WordPress installs. Nothing obvious. Using WPCache.
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tantek
Snarfed: Could just be load. Try WPSuperCache and WPTotalCache
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tantek
Snarfed: you can configure them to write HTML files to disk and only change them when things change
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tantek
Snarfed: I do that and it works fine
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tantek
Darius: I just got the notice last night and haven't had time to look at it.
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tantek
Darius: But thinking of switching anyway since they don't do SNI.
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tantek
Snarfed: WPEngine is good, they do SNI
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tantek
Andi: I have a full site with Cascade and it crashed - something went wrong with the WordPress
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tantek
Andi: And I have backups of the db etc. But I haven't had time to restore it.
andicascadesf and dariusdunlap joined the channel
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tantek
reviewing past two weeks
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tantek
IndieWebCampNYC was great
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tantek
IndieWeb closing keynote at Web Directions Code
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tantek
LiveJournal shutting down inactive accounts with 15 days notice
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tantek
welcome andicascadesf
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tantek
back to LJ
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tantek
subject: Purging of your LiveJournal account
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tantek
I read the email.
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tantek
Snarfed: should ping Archive Team
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@rtanglao
.@dria YES and :-) the real long-term solution is to run your own photo hosting AND use the popular photo hosting services #indieweb #posse
(twitter.com/_/status/464223066218713088)
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tantek
Good news past two weeks
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tantek
Great IndieWeb community representation at IIW
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tantek
IndieWeb track at IIW
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tantek
four consecutive sessions
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tantek
video shared via talky.io
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tantek
notes on Etherpad
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tantek
best notes of any of the sessions
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tantek
KevinMarks' tweets dominated IIW
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tantek
Strand: have been working on software to post to my own site, and syndicate to Twitter
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tantek
Strand: have got the basic microformats in on my posts
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tantek
kylewm: yes it is!
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tantek
Snarfed: couple big new bridgy features
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andicascadesf
Checkout this bicycle made of CSS3 http://www.gautamkrishnan.com/labs/cycle/
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tantek
Snarfed: "I have a bridge to sell you"
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tantek
Snarfed: Kyle launched a feature where you don't need permalinks in your POSSE copies for Bridgy to use them!
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tantek
Snarfed: Instead it uses rel-syndication links from the original to the POSSE copy - a reverse discovery of sorts
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tantek
Snarfed: eliminates the need to link back from the POSSE copy back to the original
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tantek
Snarfed: which has sometimes either confused or annoyed folks on the POSSE destination
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tantek
Snarfed: The other big thing, is Webmention support for Wordpress.com, Tumblr.com, and Blogger.com
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tantek
Snarfed: You log in to Bridgy and OAuth with WordPress Tumblr or Blogger .com
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tantek
Snarfed: then Bridgy watches for new posts on whichever blog host you OAuth'd in with
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tantek
Snarfed: Right now it uses Superfeedr to get notified of new posts
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tantek
Snarfed: On Tumblr in particular you need Disqus
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tantek
Snarfed: When you sign-up on Bridgy, then you add the rel=webmention to your blog's template which points to Bridgy, you get a custom Bridgy webmention endpoint URL for your blog
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KartikPrabhu
blaargh Disqus...
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tantek
Snarfed: so when someone sends a webmention to your blog, it goes to the Bridgy webmention proxy, which then it uses the individual blog host API to post the comment as a native comment on the blog host (or as a Disqus comment on Tumblr in particular)
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tantek
Snarfed: this is a way for any blogger using Wordpress.com, Blogger.com, or Tumblr.com to receive indieweb comments, likes, reposts, RSVPs from around the web.
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kylewm
would it be hard to extend to handle disqus comments in general, not just on tumblr?
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KartikPrabhu
Q: is this not as if "indieweb" is conforming to silos instead of silos changing for an indieweb?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's bringing more adoption of IndieWeb protocols & formats
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tantek
Yoz: I work on government stuff
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tantek
Yoz: US Gob websites look like they were made in the 1990s
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KartikPrabhu
I understand that is it very useful though :) just something I've been thinking about
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 16 karma
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tantek
Yoz: e.g. check out gov.uk
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andicascadesf
I’m back.
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: less conforming and more shoving indieweb down the silos throats ;)
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KartikPrabhu
my thought is "if all the silo comments/activities will end up on my site what is the incentive for my friends there to go indie?"
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tantek
your proprietary snowflake APIs will be shrinkwrapped with indieweb protocol proxies
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: your site has more than any one silo: most complete experience around a piece of content
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tantek
= incentive for users to *read* stuff on the indieweb
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: fair argument
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tantek
which then readers to do the same themselves for themselves
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: please add that to the FAQ!
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tantek
because it is a good question!
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KartikPrabhu
will do :)
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tantek
Yoz: my personal site is yoz.com
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tantek
Yoz: my twitter is @yoz
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tantek
Yoz: I want to do more blogging
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tantek
Yoz: I want to do more writing
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tantek
Andi: The more that you write, the easier that it gets, it becomes less work
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tantek
Yoz: Medium is interesting. Watching people who have blogs post on Medium.
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tantek
Andi: more virality? broader audience?
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tantek
Yoz: bunch of other things. nice usability touches. getting draft reviews.
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tantek
Darius: line by line commenting
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks had a post that became popular once he POSSEd to Medium
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tantek
Yoz: I haven't blogged in like 3 years, but I tweet
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tantek
Andi: I think you should write anyway, even in a paper journal, longhand
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KartikPrabhu
Yoz: blogging need not be about long articles IMO
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tantek
Andi, Snarfed: you can write short notes
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tantek
(KartikPrabhu right, people saying that here)
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tantek
Yoz: Wordpress has a habit of not maturing in terms of security
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tantek
Snarfed: not really, it's been improving
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tantek
Darius: big updates: easier to do SSL, and auto-updates on WordPress blogs
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tantek
Yoz: At the moment it is running on Dreamhost but I'm tempted to move it to WordPress.com
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tantek
Yoz: I had such a pain moving from MovableType to WordPress and maintaining permalinks
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tantek
Yoz: and so writing becomes this big task
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tantek
Yoz: Not even yakshaving. It's like I want to write, I go back to it and it's been compromised.
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tantek
Yoz: been using draft.in
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tantek
and we've split up into separate conversations here in SF
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kylewm
tantek: thanks for the notes!
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+27) "/* Official Guest List */ sort"
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gRegor`
Aw, tantek is going to East? Traitor. ;)
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /FAQ (+662) "question about conforming to silo, POSSE and backfeed"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: added question... and my interpretation of your answer^^
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tantek
gRegor`: where are you going? ;)
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gRegor`
West, once I confirm a few things
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gRegor`
Portland > NYC
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KartikPrabhu
should attempt to go to these things
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: come to NYC!
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tantek
it's going to rock
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tantek
and would be great to hang out in person
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KartikPrabhu
that would also cross off visiting NYC off my list... will investigate
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tantek
!tell benwerd is there a screenshot of idno/known's "new post" UI? E.g. you could add to http://indiewebcamp.com/idno
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
closing up here in SF!
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tantek
thanks everyone
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tantek.com
edited /FAQ (+149) "/* What is a personal website */ multiple domains - just pick one"
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: You thinking of coming to NYC?
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: thinking... have to work out logistics particulary as it will be my first time in NYC
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: As a lifelong New Yorker, tell me if there is anything I can do to help.
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: thanks! I will look up things and decide soon
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: You live in Chicago, right?
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GWG
You a ORD or an MDW sort of person?
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GWG
Or, you want the real experience, an Amtrak kind of type?
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KartikPrabhu
I am more of a cheap flights guy ;)
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KartikPrabhu
I have flown half way across the earth so I am not afraid of airports :)
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Doable.
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Delta has a shuttle.
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: thanks for the info... looking into it
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GWG
Then there is Southwest
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GWG
I'm not particularly fond of American and United, who are the big carriers in ORD.
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KartikPrabhu
American is awful apparently
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I'm a JetBlue person
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GWG
But I'm tall, and they have higher pitch
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KartikPrabhu
cool. I'll defer flight investigations to the morning and work on some website stuff :)
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: My net has been down since last night. I'm on cell. No websiting.
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GWG
I'm too annoyed with my ISP.
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gRegor`
American has been fine in my experience. I've heard so many bad experiences with Delta
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gRegor`
NYC and Portland are both on my list to visit, though I expect I will like Portland more. Plus my girlfriend will be living on that coast, albeit in WA... we'll figure something out.
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: I've recently become a fan of hipmunk.com's email notifications. Look up flight dates now, subscribe to the results, and they email you when the prices change up or down.
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GWG
gRegor`: Come to Indiewebcamp
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KartikPrabhu
he's planning to go to the West side...
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gRegor`
GWG: That's what I'm saying. I am probably going to Portland, though. :)
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GWG
Is East still beating West?
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: maybe we can do a midwest invasion ;)
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gRegor`
Hehe
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gRegor`
Javascript regex... this is dark magic.
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: they might be now that tantek is lobbying hard for NYC :)
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I'd love to come back to Chicago.
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gRegor`
I would like to meet tantek, that's the only downside to going West.
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GWG
We can go get some Stuffed Pizza.
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: I like NY style more
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gRegor`
pizza++
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GWG
You think he's driving it.
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Loqi
pizza has 1 karma
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I can get that anytime
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gRegor`
Get out, KartikPrabhu. Now.
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gRegor`
;)
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KartikPrabhu
lol! :P well actually the Italian's make it the best! Take that America...
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: If you come, I know a pizza place near the Times building in a converted church that is an interesting experience.
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gRegor`
Pizza needs more karma
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Loqi
pizza has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu
thinks having more content creators like Tyler Fink go indieweb would be the correct move at this time
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GWG
Well, I was thinking about this.
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GWG
How do I get others to be aware I have content indiewebstyle?
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KartikPrabhu
POSSE+backfeed is a good approach IMO
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GWG
Yes, but, what you are suggesting involves relying on silos
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KartikPrabhu
agreed... it is a stop gap measure for the present. Until the indieweb readers are mature, we can leverage the silos to work for us ;)
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GWG
Yes, that implies you already know about the site.
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GWG
How do you learn about it?
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KartikPrabhu
you mean in a completely indieweb?
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GWG
Even in a hybrid model.
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KartikPrabhu
how do you discover new websites now? through your friends sharing on silos right?
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GWG
Not always. Sometimes referrals.
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GWG
Maybe we need a 'Planet' Indieweb
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: referrals through?
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KevinMarks
Indienews could be planet indieweb, if we remember to ping it
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GWG
Hmmm...
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KartikPrabhu
feels bad referring his own article but... <shrugs>
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KartikPrabhu
does someone know why Chrome ignore "orient=auto" on svgs ... the arrows in my svg diagrams are backwards sometimes in Chrome :(
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snarfed
kylewm: re your disqus q, i think it's be straightforward to do for any blog, not just tumblr
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snarfed
basically just a text form you'd type your domain into, which creates a new Source, then fetches the front page and extracts your disqus shortname (already done)
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kylewm
funny indienews came up, i was wondering about it earlier this afternoon
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kylewm
in the context of distributed hashtags
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kylewm
the idea being that i'd include a tag on my site, and link it to a service like IndieNews that would aggregate tags from all over
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I don't really don't understand the "discovery of indieweb posts" problem, how is it different from discovering posts on silos from friends...
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kylewm
no, I don't understand it either
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: hmm ok so I'm not being completely confused
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kylewm
i was just thinking it's strange that i autolink @username to twitter on my site, and conceivably would do the same thing for #hashtags, and that Loqi sends us tweets about #indieweb, but not indieweb posts tagged #indieweb
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Loqi
grins profusely
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KartikPrabhu
interesting!
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kylewm
are you working on your site tonight?
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KartikPrabhu
eh did some tweaking on responsive image loading at HWC-Chicago but right now winding down so I can actually sleep :P
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kylewm
that would be a change!
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KartikPrabhu
yeah :P My problem always is having too many thoughts/things to work on at midnight
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@equivalentideas
Any people thinking about the new #Upcoming, #indieweb and POSSE? I'm jumping the gun big time.
(twitter.com/_/status/464274976762109952)
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Phae
Huh. myOpenId shut down in February.
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kodfabrik.se
edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+54) "Adding my name to my profile"
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tpinto
morning all
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tpinto
don’t know if you guys are aware of it
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tpinto
might be worth listening to
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tpinto
highlights a couple of good points, unveils http://indiephone.eu/ and mentions a couple of other stuff named indie*
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tpinto
wondering if is someone close to this movement
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tpinto
(namely indieOS and indieCloud)
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voxpelli
tpinto: Aral was one of the organizers of the UK IndieWebCamo last year: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
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tpinto
oh cool
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tpinto
I almost went last year but had just arrived London by then
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tpinto
hopefully this year I won’t miss it
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@finck
@kartik_prabhu fascinating! Never heard of #indieweb but that's definitely the right idea.
(twitter.com/_/status/464378702873120768)
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 12 hours ago: and boom IndieWebCamp 2014 East passes West in number of RSVPs, 5 to 4. You gonna let that stand? Let's see if West can bring in the RSVPs before East pulls further ahead. ;)
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@WmBerlin
RT @NZN: #freedombox session and #indiebox demo at #iiw to reclaim control of #indieweb by #SovereignIndividuals ... the underlying shift i…
(twitter.com/_/status/464394065321013248)
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cweiske
"reclaim control of #indieweb"
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cweiske
if you lost control of indieweb, you're in deep in problems
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tantek
cweiske - lol
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@kid_OYO
RT @NZN: #freedombox session and #indiebox demo at #iiw to reclaim control of #indieweb by #SovereignIndividuals ... the underlying shift i…
(twitter.com/_/status/464414504869052417)
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tantek.com
edited /silo-quits (+1166) "Tyler Finck, FB IG G+, why, and note caveat for other silos"
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tantek.com
edited /FAQ (+91) "/* Is the indieweb conforming to silos by implementing POSSE and backfeed? */ shorten question, expand answer a bit"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /FAQ (+149) "/* How to answer a question */ summarize each step"
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tantek.com
edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+34) "link to intro indieweb session"
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kylewm.com
edited /User:Kylewm.com (+121) "/* personal site */"
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Loqi
caseorganic: tantek left you a message on 5/7 at 5:17pm: and boom IndieWebCamp 2014 East passes West in number of RSVPs, 5 to 4. You gonna let that stand? Let's see if West can bring in the RSVPs before East pulls further ahead. ;)
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@t
Excited for http://t.co/eMPzBcH6wY's return! @waxpancake won't resell it. Let's figure out #indieweb community sites. (ttk.me t4Vy1)
(twitter.com/_/status/464441313627496448)
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caseorganic
!tell tantek it's great that east is larger than west! keep it going!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi
tantek: caseorganic left you a message 1 minute ago: it's great that east is larger than west! keep it going!
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tantek.com
edited /events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club (+951) "/* Notes */ add summary of past two weeks' indieweb happenings"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell benwerd,kevinmarks How did Homebrew Website Club meetup Mountain View go? Any notes or anything else to share?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@benwerd
A device that lets you to cloud-enable your home or business - on your own terms. Get an Indie Box: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #iiw #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/464447069923463169)
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gRegor`
Confirming time off with work for IWC West. cc tantek
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caseorganic
!tell tantek East coast NYTimes journalism - great for gen 2. I wonder what place will be popular for gen 3?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@DASocialmedia
The sustainable web (and why sustainability is a kind of independence) #indieweb #iiw http://dragplus.com/link/view/2188438?&utm_source=site&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=&utm_term= #socialmedia
(twitter.com/_/status/464451694701871104)
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gRegor`
Don't mind tantek's taunts, caseorganic. I'm about to RSVP for IWC West :)
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+290) "/* West */ BOOM."
(view diff)
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gRegor`
!tell tantek 5-5 East v West! :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegor`
kylewm: Ooh, audience parameter. Do you have an example of that?
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gRegor`
Or is it on the wiki?
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kylewm
gRegor`, not yet, want to be the guinea pig? :)
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gRegor`
Sure. Though I don't post notes on my site yet, if that's needed.
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gRegor`
If it's just receiving a webmention though, sure.
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kylewm
and it should give you an error 401 unless you are logged in on my site
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snarfed
kylewm: awesome! i assume it's just a whitelist of domains?
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snarfed
huh, logging in on your site seems to be hard coded to use kylewm.com, even if i enter snarfed.org in the domain box
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kylewm
oh, dang!
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gregorlove.com
created /2014/Sessions (+654) "Initial sessions page"
(view diff)
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snarfed
also, worth adding to http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts eventually
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kylewm
snarfed, thanks for catching that, would you try it again?
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snarfed
yup, works now, thx
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snarfed
i still get a 401 on the private page, so i'm probably not in the whitelist :P
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kylewm
hehe, still needs work. i tried to add you
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kylewm
did you log in with https://snarfed.org ?
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snarfed
it's all i've got! :P
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snarfed
aha, works now
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snarfed
awesome!
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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snarfed
definitely worth adding as another example implementation of that design
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snarfed
btw if you're interested in private posts, i'd *love* to have more people thinking about an auth-less design
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snarfed
ie that's usable for people without their own web sites, or without indieauth-ready ones
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kylewm
will definitely add to the wiki. I continue my quest for half-assed implementations of p3k features
#
kylewm
auth-less, very interesting, have you written about that before?
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snarfed
not at all, since i have no good solution
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snarfed
just the problem :P
#
snarfed
one possibility would be to support straight fb or twitter (etc) login as well as indieauth
#
snarfed
another interesting design question: private posts can't really handle webmentions, right?
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kylewm
the /indieweb-messaging page on the wiki talks all about the latter
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snarfed
aha thanks
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014 (-102) "/* to-do */"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014 (+99) "/* done */"
(view diff)
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kylewm
I'm glad you brought that up, would love a way to share private posts with people who aren't indieweb yet
#
kylewm
will be thinking about it
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gRegor`
It worked, kylewm! Awesome
#
kylewm
thank you for testing it gRegor` !
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kylewm
now expunge the logs so aaronpk doesn't see us talking about implementing silo logins
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gRegor`
Haha
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gRegor`
siloauth.com
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gRegor`
Sometimes I forget about Loqi pulling in tweets and am surprised when I see my own tweet, haha
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+31) "/* West */"
(view diff)
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Loqi
tantek: caseorganic left you a message 1 hour, 31 minutes ago: East coast NYTimes journalism - great for gen 2. I wonder what place will be popular for gen 3?
#
Loqi
tantek: gRegor` left you a message 55 minutes ago: 5-5 East v West! :)
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Loqi
KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 51 minutes ago: How did Homebrew Website Club meetup Mountain View go? Any notes or anything else to share?
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tantek
caseorganic - good q! I think we will need the help of gen 2 folks to answer questions about gen 3 :)
#
tantek
gRegor`: right on! ok time to rally harder :)
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KevinMarks
we didn't have a formal HWC in MV, but benwerd erin and I were chatting with Stef magdalinski and Randy Farmer
j12t and sbw joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
#iiw @DerekjAndersen: I don't trust anyone to centralise my identity, not google, not facebook. we're seeing more anonymous sites #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/464476423831707650)
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@kevinmarks
#iiw @DerekjAndersen: When somebody has that much power over our identities, they will en dup using it for evil #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/464476588739133440)
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tantek
ah, was wondering where the IIW indieweb presence went
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tantek
what happened yesterday?
#
tantek
(at IIW)
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KevinMarks
I got there late, but saw the demo circle, which included Grown
#
KevinMarks
did more chatting to people, fewer sessions
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KevinMarks
today Ben+Erin have a "get your indieweb site here" stall set up
tantek joined the channel
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kylewm.com
edited /private_posts (+574) "/* Allow silo friends to see private posts */ address book"
(view diff)
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@tongwynlaismeta
Having your own domain and website gives you more control and ownership. http://indiewebcamp.com/ #FLcommunityjourno
(twitter.com/_/status/464479049860272128)
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tantek
kylewm interesting - I think tommorris was putting a bunch of thought into private posts - as he wants to do exactly that (with giving permissions to FB friends)
#
tantek
re: address book - the minimal viable address book should be just a list of URLs of people in storage. On top of that, cache their full name and photo from their h-card at their URL (or retrieved by snowflake API from their silo profile URL)
#
tantek
everything else should be retrieved dynamically from their personal site / profile URL
#
tantek
apply caching as needed
#
tantek
once you make your addressbook person-URL-centric, then all the permissions stuff becomes super obvious
#
KevinMarks
"people in storage" -very matrix
#
tantek
because to give a person permission, you just give permission to anyone who authenticates with that URL!
#
tantek
KevinMarks: we don't store people, just pointers to them. :)
#
tantek
it's the silos that store people.
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KevinMarks
keith teare is trying a similar thing to your comms urls with teare.com/keith
#
tantek
!tell chloeweil sign-up page for IndieWebCamp East June 28-29 at the NYTimes is up! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#East
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
Kevinmarks - except that's just a redirect to a silo
#
tantek
which then uses a bunch of JS magic
#
tantek
in contrast to: 1) directly on your personal site, 2) simple HTML hyperlinks that anyone can code up or copy/paste and modify (e.g. from my recent Markup for Comms post)
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KevinMarks
yeah, he has a chat silo
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tantek
that chat thing is similar to talky.io
#
tantek
not similar to people-focused communications
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@DerekjAndersen
RT @kevinmarks: #iiw @DerekjAndersen: When somebody has that much power over our identities, they will en dup using it for evil #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/464480784166842368)
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KevinMarks
fair point. He was pitching it as url-spawned chat so could fit in with PFC (as he has an iOS app that receives alerts from it)
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tantek
!tell aaronpk, what do you think of putting a "Join the #indiewebcamp channel to chat" link in bold at the bottom of the latest IRC log page?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
KevinMarks: the "receive alerts from it" part is interesting
#
tantek
perhaps ask him to open source that part?
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KevinMarks
'cos HTML5 notifications aren't quite ready
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tantek
!tell aaronpk, the idea is that if someone is reading the logs for /irc/today and they read to the bottom and want to say something, all they have to do is click the link which then joins the IRC channel and lets them say something.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
ok that's enough aaronpk tells for now :)
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KevinMarks
heh, one of the chaps I'm live tweeting is faving the tweets on his phone
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kylewm.com
edited /private_posts (+727) "/* Allow silo friends to see private posts */ add IRC notes from tantek"
(view diff)
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kylewm
tantek: thanks for your thoughts on that ^ hope it’s ok to add them en masse to the wiki like that
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tantek
kylewm definitely! appreciated!
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dariusdunlap
kylewm - By the way, i tried your auth’d note link, and even after I signed in using “https://dunlaps.net”, it still gave the 401 error.
#
kylewm
dariusdunlap: thanks for trying it out! it’s shared via a really dumb whitelist for now, that just included Snarfed and Gregor for that post
#
tantek
whoa - looks like the new Twitter profiles now do live updating! I have @kevinmarks open in another window and it is live-updating with his tweets as he posts them!!!
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dariusdunlap
No problem. Let me know if you need another test run. I was just catching up on the channel and so I tried it.
#
tantek
so now that's the next challenge for those who have some amount of real-time-ness working, e.g. aaronpk's realtime display of comments
#
tantek
realtime home page updates with your posts just showing up as you make them
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tantek
@KevinMarks, I don't buy that Y Combinator counts as traction. Show me the data for that.
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KevinMarks
he meant "is seen as traction, so will get follow-on funding"
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tantek
Show me that something getting accepted for Y Combinator helps it succeed any more (as %) than not.
#
tantek
where succeed = still exists in 5 years
#
tantek
as opposed to build-to-flip
#
tantek
ah - it's seen as bubble-traction ok
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tantek
transactional froth - not part of the sustainable web
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KevinMarks
yes - this was part fo the critique of no more risk capital fro a 2 year project
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tantek
greetings
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ben_thatmust
how are you today?
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tantek
good! What are you doing June 28-29 ben_thatmust ?
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ben_thatmust
sadly i believe I may be busy that weekend. not sure.
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tantek
seriously if you don't have https://twitter.com/KevinMarks open in another window, you're missing out. Just open it and watch the tweets show up in real time in the background.
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tantek
welcome back mko!
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mko
Thanks. My ZNC is down. Setting it back up now. :-)
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KevinMarks
except the session just finished
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KevinMarks
I should post notes
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Loqi
definitely
pauloppenheim and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
90+ in the channel again. Have we crested 100+ yet? aaronpk?
carlo_au and chloeweil joined the channel
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Loqi
chloeweil: tantek left you a message 41 minutes ago: sign-up page for IndieWebCamp East June 28-29 at the NYTimes is up! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#East
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ben.thatmustbe.me
created /OpenBlog (+1189) "Creating OpenBlog page"
(view diff)
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tantek
nice!
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /OpenBlog (+15) "/* Description */"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmust
lfinally started setting it up
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ben_thatmust
since I'm home sick, figured I might as well
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tantek.com
created /openblog (+22) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
ben_thatmust: get well soon! but yes, in the meantime, crank on!@
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@benwerd
Respect uses XDI as a transmission protocol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XDI The #indieweb approach, as a comparison: http://indiewebify.me/ #iiw
(twitter.com/_/status/464502782276292608)
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@benwerd
The Respect Network is closed and has tiered membership fees. Would prefer web-style free & open protocols. #iiw #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/464503235739279360)
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tantek
oh dear … stopped reacing at "OASIS …"
#
tantek
nice, benwerd is throwing down ;)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /projects (+431) "Adding OpenBlog to list of projects."
(view diff)
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bnvk
any of you cats at #IIW seeing a demo of it?
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tantek
bnvk - perhaps ask benwerd. doesn't sound good (from the sound of his tweets)
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bnvk
yah, that's what I saw
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aaronpk
"claim your cloud name"?
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tantek
well if you're looking into it, go ahead and document a /RespectNetwork page on the wiki with benwerd's criticisms so we at least capture it
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 35 minutes ago: do you think of putting a "Join the #indiewebcamp channel to chat" link in bold at the bottom of the latest IRC log page?
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 34 minutes ago: which obviously would link to http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=indiewebcamp&nick=indie-visitor
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aaronpk
good idea ^
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 33 minutes ago: idea is that if someone is reading the logs for /irc/today and they read to the bottom and want to say something, all they have to do is click the link which then joins the IRC channel and lets them say something.
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bnvk
tantek: naw, I perused the website- seems very vapor right now, such fumes, much promise...
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tantek
bnvk - yes - those are also good criticisms to document!
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bnvk
hehe
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bnvk
tantek: out of curiosity- what value do you see in documenting something that may or may not ever exist / be worth anything?
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tantek
bnvk - hype deflation, and making it clear to folks in general to not bother with it
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bnvk
gotcha
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tantek
it also helps answer the question when people ask "What is X?"
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Loqi
X is related to y
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tantek
What is Y?
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tantek
Loqi, Y is related to X
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Loqi
is done
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tantek
What is Y?
#
Loqi
Y is related to X
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bnvk
hehehe
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bnvk
what is X and Y?
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tantek
bnvk - also, we document vapor for the same reason we document anti-patterns
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@rakesh314
Ha! Love it when folks nudge the web forward. More so, when it comes from a well-meaning friend - @sandeepshetty: https://github.com/converspace/webmention/pull/32#issuecomment-42562733
(twitter.com/_/status/464506104769032193)
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bnvk
yah, I can see how that's valuable
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bnvk
too busy happily coding (after a day of hair pulling & wrestling) at the moment :)
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tantek
excellent! building things!
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@benwerd
Personal clouds, business clouds, nfp clouds. All good. Why do we need to pay to join the network? I don't on the web. #iiw #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/464506844627484674)
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Jeena
so after a week of work I got my first version of photos working ^^ https://jeena.net/photos/1 right now it is only POSSEing to Twitter and Facebook but I still need to implement webmentions and POSSEing to Flickr. As far as I know it is not possible to POSSE to Instagram? (Which is quite sad)
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: nice work... as a photography nut myself, I like the EXIF at the bottom :)
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Jeena
Hehe yeah, I need to look it over more, perhaps there is more interesting data there which I would like to show.
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tantek
Jeena - correct. Though it is theoretically possible to fake a POSSE to Instagram. See /Instagram
#
tantek
and well done with getting photos working!!!!
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tantek
love that you posted a blurry photo as the "still needs work, this is the first version" photo post. So good. :)
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Jeena
the biggest problem was twitter POSSEing because the rails plugins don't let you post media
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Jeena
hehe yeah, the photo was not in the focus (pun intended) for the first post but the whole system instead
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kylewm
that update_with_media API call is a tricky one
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tantek
the biggest problem with proprietary APIs is the ever increasing maintenance task of having to update various libraries/plugins to deal with them.
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cweiske
when is an API not proprietary?
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Jeena
cweiske when it is a open protocol
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cweiske
when is a protocol open? when it's documented?
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cweiske
then all apis that have client libs are open
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bnvk
when there are open source libs that make it easy to interact with
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Jeena
I was thinking when there is a RFC or something like that for it
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cweiske
so the twitter api is open because there are open source libs talking it?
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bnvk
nope
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bnvk
the code powering the Twitter API is not open source
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cweiske
but status.net implements the twitter api! it's open source
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cweiske
so is the twitter api open source?
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cweiske
but there is an open server and many open clients
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Jeena
I ended up installing a command line utility: https://github.com/twitter/twurl which works like curl+twitter_oauth and make a system call from my web app. It is bad but the only thing I was able to get to work
benwerd joined the channel
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 5/7 at 5:01pm: that is awesome!!! (setting up IIW folks in person). The IndieWebologist is IN. :D
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 5/7 at 5:17pm: and boom IndieWebCamp 2014 East passes West in number of RSVPs, 5 to 4. You gonna let that stand? Let's see if West can bring in the RSVPs before East pulls further ahead. ;)
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 5/7 at 7:50pm: is there a screenshot of idno/known's "new post" UI? E.g. you could add to http://indiewebcamp.com/idno
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 13 minutes ago: How did Homebrew Website Club meetup Mountain View go? Any notes or anything else to share?
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cweiske
Jeena, openid and rss are not open by your definition because they are not rfc'd
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cweiske
indieauth also not
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benwerd
(legal precedent on APIs: see Oracle. You can't copyright them)
#
cweiske
so, back to the question: when is an api not proprietary?
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Jeena
cweiske that is why I added "or something like that" to it ;)
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cweiske
or rather: when is it proprietary?
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bnvk
benwerd: what's the in person verdict on Respectnetwork?
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Jeena
when only one company controlls the api/protocol development?
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benwerd
I like their ambition. I hate that they're using overcomplicated standards, a fee-based membership models, and have apps that aren't based on actual user demand
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cweiske
Jeena, that sounds better than the previous explanations
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cweiske
can two companies develop a proprietary protocol?
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snarfed
cweiske++ for asking these questions
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Loqi
cweiske has 6 karma
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Jeena
but obviously it is not open just because two companies (who work together) controll the development
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benwerd
(I'm at a VC panel, btw, and they're giving much of the same feedback that I am on Twitter.)
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bnvk
interesting
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Jeena
so there is no straight line there, it is kind of blurry (and that is ok in my opinion)
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snarfed
benwerd: out of curiosity, did you hate/dislike app.net for the same reasons? not being snarky
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snarfed
sincerely curious
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cweiske
can one/tantek badmouth something that's hard to define/undefinable?
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benwerd
LOTS of "security beyond passwords" startups, too
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rascul
passwords are a horrible authentication mechanism
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rascul
but better mechanisms can be hard to implement well
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benwerd
snarfed: I was skeptical, but bought into app.net initially because I thought I was probably wrong. Did feel I preferred an open platform. Nonetheless, loved that it was happening, and supported with both time and money.
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benwerd
(i.e., I was conflicted.)
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snarfed
benwerd: understood. i asked because it fit the same three criteria you gave for respect network
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Jeena
I liked app.net only for a week or something until I found Tent.
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snarfed
benwerd: no matter. tell all the indieweb people at iiw hi for us!
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tantek
cweiske - proprietary APIs are usuall 1-off (custom for the site), "owned"/controlled by a single company (at best a few - oligopoly), and have a nasty TOS attached to them.
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snarfed
and congrats on (soft?) launching known!!!
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benwerd
I also recognize that it's a bit crappy to sit in the backchannel and throw out criticism
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rascul
what is this iiw i keep hearing about?
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snarfed
eh it's humanity, we all do it
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benwerd
I will certainly say hi
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benwerd
rascul: Internet Identity Workshop
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tantek
cweiske - if you're looking for the contrary, what is open? Google for "What is the Open Web?"
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Loqi
open is not a four letter word
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benwerd
which has been a net positive - I'll probably go again
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cweiske
tantek, is the twitter api proprietary although status.net implements it? no nasty TOS
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tantek
cweiske, yes it is proprietary because 1) Twitter owns it, 2) nasty TOS
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cweiske
what is "owning" for you?
#
tantek
and 3) status.net implements some subset of the Twitter API, rather than "implements it"
#
kylewm
Jeena: do you still use Tent.io?
#
Jeena
no, it died for me after a update where I wasn't able to use my own domain/server anymore
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tantek
cweiske, in this case, like in many others, ownership is about control, especially the evolution thereof.
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Jeena
mostly because the devs told me that this is not a priority for them, and now, 6 months later it still hasn't been fixed
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rascul
there seem to be conflicting definitions of proprietary and open apis
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tantek
cweiske, what did you mean by "can one/tantek badmouth something …"? trying to understand what appears to be a criticism.
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benwerd
snarfed: ... and thank you!
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cweiske
I just had no definition of proprietary api, and nobody seemed to give one
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benwerd
(very soft)
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rascul
some seem to definie a proprietary api as specific to one device, or one group of devices, while others seem to consider licensing/nda/related stuff
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rascul
i would agree with tantek here though
#
cweiske
the API definition is open in most cases, the api implementation not
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rascul
ooo there's an interesting way to put it, by separating the definition and implementation
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tantek.com
created /proprietary (+946) "stub based some IRC conversation"
(view diff)
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Jeena
KartikPrabhu I'd like to add geo position to my NIKON photos but it seems quite complicated, one seems to have some extra dongle which tracks where you are at which time and then some program to combine it with the pictures
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tantek.com
edited /API (+18) "see also proprietary"
(view diff)
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cweiske
Jeena, I usually have gps logging activated on my phone
#
cweiske
and then map the gps log onto taken photos
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rascul
"As of 2014 many cameras and most mobile phones have a built-in GPS receiver that stores the location information in the Exif header when a picture is taken."
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tantek.com
edited /proprietary (+18) "link to specific page"
(view diff)
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Jeena
is it some extra app on your phone?
#
Jeena
and how do you map it?
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: yeah geo is hard. new cameras are just building it in
#
Jeena
hm ok thanks I will have a look at it
#
cweiske
the app on my n900 is called "gpsrecorder"
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter-API (+127) "dfn, see also"
(view diff)
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tantek
cweiske - please document your experience with the status.net clone of the Twitter API here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter-API#API_Clone_Implementations
#
Jeena
When I upload a photo from my phone it contains geo data and I show a nice openstreet-map under the picture
#
@edsu
RT @t: Excited for http://t.co/eMPzBcH6wY's return! @waxpancake won't resell it. Let's figure out #indieweb community sites. (ttk.me t4Vy1)
(twitter.com/_/status/464515522315710464)
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Jeena
ah there seems to be a couple of gps recorders for android
#
Jeena
I wish I used it before my 2 weeks vaccation in japan ^^
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aaronpk
that's why I just record GPS all the time, so I can always geo-locate stuff later if it has a timestamp
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tantek
rascul, re: "what is this iiw i keep hearing about?" as usual, check indiewebcamp.com/iiw :D
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tantek.com
created /Tent (+21) "r"
(view diff)
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rascul
i always forget to look at indiewebcamp.com!
#
rascul
i have a brain the size of a peanut
#
aaronpk
i should make loqi return wiki links for "what is ___" if there's a page :)
#
Loqi
I agree
barnabywalters and sbw joined the channel
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snarfed
barnabywalters: don't do it, it's a trap!
#
barnabywalters
interesting debate about “open/proprietary API” definition
#
rascul
i always feel dirty when i read irc logs
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barnabywalters
snarfed: er, er, by “logs” I’m referring to… felled trees!
#
barnabywalters
(am I safe now)
#
tantek
aaronpk - that would be amazing
#
snarfed
barnabywalters: huh. now i'm really curious.
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rascul
i like cutting down trees it's fun
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rascul
and only sometimes do i get dirty from it
#
barnabywalters
on a more serious note: for me, proprietary/open is about consumer/producer relationship and empowerment balance
#
rascul
whoa that's a bunch of big words all in one line
#
tantek
barnabywalters: please add that to: http://indiewebcamp.com/proprietary
#
tantek
or incorporate somehow
#
barnabywalters
proprietary API = defined+implemented behind closed doors, very clear consumer/producer relationship, consumers completely disempowered to make changes or suggestions
#
barnabywalters
open API = basically the opposite of everything above
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rascul
what about something inbetween?
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rascul
defined openly, implemented in secret?
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barnabywalters
rascul: by “defined” I don’t mean “documented”, I’m referring to the decision making processes
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tantek
barnabywalters: not sure that's enough for "Open", see: http://tantek.com/2010/281/b1/what-is-the-open-web
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rascul
ahh ok
#
tantek
there's a lot more to open than just "not closed"
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barnabywalters
e.g. Twitter API is *documented* openly, but *created* completely behind closed doors
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tantek
barnabywalters: hence owned & controlled per /proprietary
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barnabywalters
tantek: cweiske asked for a concrete definition, that’s my best attempt
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rascul
but twitter api has open access?
#
tantek
barnabywalters: he's long gone
#
tantek
he dropped a few questions, added a few follow-ups and then ignored requests to contribute what he knows to the wiki
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barnabywalters
tantek: so I’m interested to know where exactly you find my definition lacking — skimming over your article (have read it in-depth in the past) I can’t see anything obvious which is missing
#
tantek
and I was serious, you (barnabywalters) should incorporate your thoughts on what is proprietary to http://indiewebcamp.com/proprietary
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barnabywalters
other than explicitly saying that it’s published under a free as in beer + freedom license
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tantek
and then I'd suggest something longer for "what is open" - like a blog post :)
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Loqi
open is about consumer
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barnabywalters
spot-on as always Loqi
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aaronpk
oh hey that gives me an idea
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah, Loqi's existing "x is y" responses are not that useful and only semi-funny.
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tantek
would be better if they were from the wiki
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aaronpk
i'd say he's currently at about 50% funny rate with that right now
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tantek
what is funny?
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tantek
Loqi?
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aaronpk
what is the appropriate markup for this sentence on this page: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship "authorship is a claim about who the author(s) of a post are."
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barnabywalters
wiki links > 50% funny
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aaronpk
summary?
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aaronpk
cause he could pull out the summary sentence of pages that way
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: p-summary
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aaronpk
is each page an h-entry then? cause right now there's no mf2 classes on the page
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barnabywalters
that would be a really nice microformats demo
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tantek
aaronpk - easier to just pull out <dfn> </dfn> until period "."
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barnabywalters
if not then they should be
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tantek
aaronpk, yes each page is an h-entry
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tantek
and has a p-name
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tantek
and dt-updated
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tantek
and e-content
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tantek
u-url "Page" link in the top
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: should Tyler Fink be told of IWC2014-East? ref: https://twitter.com/finck/status/464378702873120768
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@finck
@kartik_prabhu fascinating! Never heard of #indieweb but that's definitely the right idea.
(twitter.com/_/status/464378702873120768)
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KartikPrabhu
he is Ithaca-based
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tantek.com
edited /Tent.io (+377) "/* Criticism */ Dropped support for own domain"
(view diff)
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sbw
I'm exploring indieweb here at IIW, and I'm getting a strange response from the h-entry mark-up checker. Kevin Marks suggested I post the link: http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbw.org%2Fusecnames%2F
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: yes! invite him! (and to this channel too!)
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tantek
hey sbw!
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tantek
good timing as one of the authors of indiewebifyme is here (barnabywalters )
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /proprietary (+933) "contrasted proprietary with open, clarified what owned/controlled actually means"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
tantek: ^^^^ for your review
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I added Tyler's blog post to the http://indiewebcamp.com/silo-quits#Silo_quitters_2014 section
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barnabywalters
greetings sbw!
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barnabywalters
I’m having a look into it now
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sbw
tx
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tantek.com
edited /proprietary (-3) "cleaner heading"
(view diff)
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@benwerd
Notes are on the wall already (and on the web, of course). #indieweb #iiw https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/464522826620231680/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/464522826620231680)
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tantek
barnabywalters: looks good!
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barnabywalters
I think you’re right, this might be enough of a useful topic for a longer blog post
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tantek
barnabywalters: feel free to copy / fork from http://tantek.com/2010/281/b1/what-is-the-open-web
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tantek
switches from the @kevinmarks live update channel to the @benwerd live update channel
#
tantek
just looked at respectnetwork.com
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tantek
bnvk - the reason to document vapor like this is to counteract the high-gloss marketing fluff of one-page websites like that
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tantek
and the whole culture of people getting excited about high-gloss marketing fluff rather than real things that are shipping and working on the web, on the very sites owned and used by their creators
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tantek
at its core this is a cultural battle: creators vs marketers
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barnabywalters
sbw: looks like the problem is spread across both of our code — your datetime isn’t valid ISO8601, and the code I wrote to check if a datetime was valid ISO 8601 was broken :)
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barnabywalters
bnvk: can you deploy indiewebify.me please
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barnabywalters
bnvk: and we really need to get me deploy access
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aaronpk
set up a git remote so you can both push to it
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sbw
tantek: sbw.org is still XHTML strict. What's the latest thinking on validation? In particular, I'm looking at the example of <time datetime=""> here: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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sbw
barnabywalters: Thanks. I followed the example at the link above.
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: yeah but then I need ssh access to bnvk’s server, etc, etc etc
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aaronpk
no, just git access
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tantek
sbw XHTML strict has been superceded by HTML5. The <time> element alone is sufficient reason to upgrade.
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sbw
tantek: That's what I figured.
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: wait how does that work
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barnabywalters
I’ve always used git on remote machines via an ssh connection
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barnabywalters
how does git do authentication on it’s own?
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aaronpk
i forget, i always do it with ssh too
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barnabywalters
bnvk: the easiest thing is just to create an obfuscated endpoint which executes a git pull from github
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tantek.com
created /XHTML (+103) "stub"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
ha yep i've done that before too :)
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: ssh: so seamless that after initial setup it just disappears
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tantek.com
created /xhtml (+19) "r"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
you can even do remote-filesystem autocomplete
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: hey, why overcomplicate :)
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barnabywalters
complicated deployment is for people who are getting paid
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tantek.com
edited /XHTML (+282) "XML, articles"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
same with frameworks
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tantek
aaronpk, barnabywalters please add to http://indiewebcamp.com/deployment accordingly. I find deployment to still be a major problem / pain and would very much appreciate seeing your approaches documented.
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sbw
barnabywalters: I changed it to ISO 8601. Shall I wait 'til you deploy to try again?
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barnabywalters
sbw: it should work just fine now!
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aaronparecki.com
edited /deployment (+92) "/* Git based deploy */"
(view diff)
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sbw
barnabywalters: Hmmm... Same result as before.
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rascul
don't need ssh access for git... depending on how things are setup
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barnabywalters
sbw: if you have a look at the last piece of text before the error message, or the “published” property here: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbw.org%2Fusecnames%2F
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barnabywalters
you can see that the datetime is still being parsed as “June 5 '10”
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kylewm
rascul: ssh is way easier to set up than the git protocol though
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rascul
this is true
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rascul
ssh setup is trivial :)
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sbw
oh, I just changed the datetime attribute, not the text inside the element. I'll look up <time> in the spec.
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rascul
gitolite is quite good though too
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barnabywalters
sbw: you put the datetime attribute on a <span> element, not a <time> element :)
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sbw
I thought I fixed that.
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aaronpk
rascul: ssh setup for multi-user access with proper access control is not trivial
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barnabywalters
not according to my view-source, but it might be some weird caching thing
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sbw
no, it works now, thanks!
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barnabywalters
ah yep I see it too
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barnabywalters
yay! nice work
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Loqi
giggles
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rascul
aaronpk depends on the requirements and end goal how non trivial it can get
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rascul
for multi user access to git repos though, gitolite is usually my answer
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rascul
dokku can be good for painless deploys
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aaronpk
rascul: you should document your flow on /deployment
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rascul
i will ponder this
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rascul
i don't really have a "flow" i don't think
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aaronpk
whatever you use to deploy your site
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rascul
i just... do stuff
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kylewm
request for /deployment, it would be awesome to have info about how y'all version/deploy data too
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rascul
i will make a note to do this /deployment stuff though
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aaronpk
kylewm: my site is my data :)
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barnabywalters
kylewm: embarrassingly, my site code and data are all in the same repo
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aaronpk
another benefit of not having my content in a database
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kylewm
aaronpk: not subrepositories or anything?
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rascul
data is easy when it's flat files in a git repo :)
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barnabywalters
the plan (which I am in fact progressing right now) is to slowly extract the bulk of the code out into separate packages
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: same with me, i'm moving common code to separate repositories
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barnabywalters
so that my site repo becomes data + dependency list + tiny bit of glue code making the two fit together
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kylewm
interesting! i have my data in a separate repository, but that is problematic too, rolling back one without rolling back the other could be dangerous
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barnabywalters
right now, working on moving my full-stack indieauth client code out into a package
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rascul
barnabywalters i've tried to do stuff like that, it always got messy for me
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: whoa! do tell!
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barnabywalters
as I actually need it in another project now
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tantek.com
created /Respect_Network (+1716) "stub based on their home page and benwerd's tweets"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
namely, micropub-enabled feedreader+search engine+spam prevention tool
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barnabywalters
fortunately it only needs one tiny bit of abstraction: a function mapping a token to the associated data, and vice versa
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barnabywalters
because that might be implemeted as permanent storage or encryption
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aaronpk
the other day i was thinking about making a micropub-enabled twitter client
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aaronpk
and yes, specifically twitter, because I want to quickly favorite and reply to tweets at events
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aaronpk
but first, I need to be able to publish "likes" on my site :)
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snarfed
aaronpk: yup, +1 to posseing likes for fun and profit
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snarfed
try bridgy publish?
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snarfed
(shameless :P)
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aaronpk
that works by me publishing an h-entry "like" on my own site then telling bridgy to go push it to the twitter api for me?
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snarfed
btw for inspiration, here are the bookmarklets i used to auto-generate like/repost/etc mf2 when i have a page (or tweet or fb post) open in the browser: https://gist.github.com/snarfed/e2628154ddaffd1ce1a5
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tantek
snarfed++ for bridgy publish for POSSEing likes :)
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Loqi
snarfed has 17 karma
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snarfed
aaronpk: yup. and assuming p3k sends webmentions for all links, you can "tell" bridgy with just a webmention
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aaronpk
that's kind of an overloaded use of webmention, right?
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aaronpk
using it as a control API?
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aaronpk
interesting. nice side effect is that you can actually include an <a> link to bridgy and it happens automagically
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snarfed
exactly
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aaronpk
also whoa where did this joke come from
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aaronpk
Two naked tags walk into a bar. The bartender exclaims, "Hey, you can't come in here without microformats, this is a classy joint!"
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snarfed
um, i made it up
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snarfed
be gentle :P
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aaronpk
aahahahaha
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aaronpk
that's awesome
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: briansuda gave me one of the old microformats t-shirts, which says “microformats: we do it with class” on the back ;)
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aaronpk
i remember those!
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barnabywalters
snarfed++ for microformats jokes
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Loqi
snarfed has 18 karma
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barnabywalters
snarfed++ for bridgy
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aaronpk
snarfed: you should post that joke on your site
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barnabywalters
INTERNET POINTS
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snarfed
lol. thanks all!
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snarfed
btw, as inspiration, https://snarfed.org/responses is the likes, favorites, RTs, RSVPs, etc i've been posseing (all of them) for a while
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aaronpk
right now brid.gy is the only search result for that joke
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aaronpk
but now the irc logs will show up
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kylewm
pile of cats!
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snarfed
heh yeah. good eye kylewm. sadly idno/known strips img tags so that reply showed up empty on werd.io. ah well
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aaronpk
!tell benwerd your old search URLs are 404! you should add a redirect rule for them http://werd.io/search/?q=%23indiewebcamp
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
who else has a separate page like snarfed's "responses" that lists out all likes and things?
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kylewm
that isn't linked from anywhere
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snarfed
oh man, kylewm++ for including private posts in /everything, but only if you're logged in and have access
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kylewm.com
edited /deployment (+585) "/* IndieWeb Approaches */ added notes about fabric"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
oh nice
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kylewm
ha thanks, is it surprising that private notes are there?
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KartikPrabhu
why does a trailing slash behave diff. on the wiki ref: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/ vs http://indiewebcamp.com/2014
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kylewm
trailing-slash--
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Loqi
trailing-slash has -1 karma
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aaronpk
cause they're different URLs
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: because they're different URLs :)
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rascul
the heroku git push says it fails point 4, what point 4 is being referred to?
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kylewm
rascul, under goals after the blockquotes
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kylewm
i wondered the same thing
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: aaronpk: hmm... I feel most people don't think of trailing slashes as diff URLs
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KartikPrabhu
but might just be me
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rascul
kylewm ahh ok thanks somehow i missed that
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aaronpk
for me, trailing slash implies a directory or list
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gRegor`
I would vote for 2014/ being a redirect to 2014 (no slash)
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rascul
the heroku note should be updated because of things like dokku and flynn
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barnabywalters
from a usability POV, I consider them to be the same, but only one should be canonical, and the other redirect to it
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rascul
maybe i will do this
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gRegor`
Er, or perhaps reverse that.
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: fwiw, wikipedia behaves the same way http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII/
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gRegor`
Yeah, what barnaby said ^ :)
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kylewm
although that is a general question i have about indieauth
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: wikipedia is clearly things / is part of the title which seems incorrect anyway
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KartikPrabhu
s/things/thinks
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: kylewm: wikipedia is clearly thinks / is part of the title which seems incorrect anyway
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aaronpk
kylewm: what's the question?
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kylewm
aaronpk: what does it do with trailing slashes?
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: That's what IWC is doing too. Just how MW works, I guess.
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: yeah good point <shrugs>
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gRegor`
Though I imagine there's a MW setting (buried somewhere, or course) to allow those or not.
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gRegor`
I'm with you, though. I don't see a need to have separate 2014 pages.
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aaronpk
well "http://aaronparecki.com" is not a full URL cause it doesn't have a path, so "http://aaronparecki.com/" is what ends up being used
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tantek
but just like aaronparecki.com - it's auto expanded
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aaronpk
but "example.com/contact" and "example.com/contact/" are treated as completely separate URLs
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gRegor`
On my site, I redirect permanent links without a trailing slash to with the trailing slash. e.g. http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: likewise
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rascul
"If a path of the context locator ends in slash, partial URIs are treated differently to the URI with the same path but without a trailing slash. The trailing slash indicates a void segment of the path. "
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rascul
that's all i could find from w3c about trailing slash http://www.w3.org/Addressing/URL/4_3_Partial.html
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rascul
not really sure what it means though ;)
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gRegor`
Hehe
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barnabywalters
I don’t think “void segment of the path” means very much to anyone
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rascul
well it must have meant something to someone at sometime!
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barnabywalters
admittedly “anyone” is a generalisation
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rascul
but i don't really feel like reading the url spec right now
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rascul
eh that's probably not even current
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gRegor`
I don't think either way is a matter of correct/incorrect by a spec. Just talking user experience.
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rascul
"Expires 21 September 1994"
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rascul
pretty sure a trailing slash is optional though
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rascul
i'm trying to think of a case where a trailing slash in the uri is meaningful
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aaronpk
stop thinking of it as a trailing slash and it makes more sense
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rascul
think of it as what then?
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aaronpk
it's just another character of the URL
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kylewm
aaronpk: so "http://kylewm.com/" is my canonical indieauth URL even though it redirects to the no slash version?
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aaronpk
kylewm: browsers are just hiding the slash
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aaronpk
kylewm: curl -I http://kylewm.com/ does not return a 301
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rascul
tantek i dunno anymore!
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kylewm
oh wow, thanks!
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kylewm
^ for explaining
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barnabywalters
question: say you were using a package to bolt-on indieauth support to your site — would you be annoyed if it set remember-me cookies as well as handling login, providing current user details etc?
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rascul
barnabywalters i would be annoyed if it wasn't configurable
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: i would want it to work like omniauth does, all it does is handle login and return user info
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tantek
wait, since when does IWC wiki support fragmentions?!? Cool!!!
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@gRegorLove
@joeld @thursdayschild I did. I liked it and shared it in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel, though I think at a slower time.
(twitter.com/_/status/464538154088017920)
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aaronpk
tantek: since the day after fragmentions.js was written :)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek :D i tested before tweeting that :)
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: does omniauth add routes to your application?
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tantek
barnabywalters: I think a remember me cookie would be quite useful and is in fact part of how Web Sign-in was designed to work seamlessly
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: kind of, it assumes a route will exist, but you have to add it manually
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tantek
so that in the typical case (user returning to sign-in), they didn't have to type anything in, just click sign-in
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aaronpk
er wait no, it does add the callback routes itself
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gRegor`
Article I'm referring to in that tweet: http://jdueck.net/article/a-web-of-small-properties
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barnabywalters
tantek: sure, you need to have a remember-me cookie, but from a dev (library consumer) POV would you get annoyed if the library set the cookie for you?
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barnabywalters
rather than just giving you information and you having to set it yourself
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tantek
first pass from a dev POV the simpler (more it took care of for me) the better
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aaronpk
i guess it depends on your target audience
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barnabywalters
tantek: that’s my instinct — is to make it full-stack, mimimum configuration by default, but with the ability to turn stuff off if you want
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aaronpk
someone who is adding logins to their site for the first time, it's more useful if it does everything
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aaronpk
but someone who already has a login mechanism and is adding indieauth support would find that horribly annoying
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: at the moment the target audience is me: Taproot and my reader, both of which only use indieauth for authentication
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barnabywalters
so I think I’ll go down the “does everything” route for the moment
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barnabywalters
especially as aaronpk’s indieauth client library is so easy to use
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barnabywalters
if people want more complex integration they can build it themselves, perhaps taking inspiration/code from my implementation
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aaronpk
seems reasonable!
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barnabywalters
thanks for the feedback — really appreciate the quick, helpful responses :)
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tantek
barnabywalters: I'm still struggling with updating the RelMeAuth PHP library so I may have to switch to yours :/
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KartikPrabhu
could there me more info of this kind for NYC: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#Get_Your_Flights_and_Hotel ?
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barnabywalters
tantek: my library is quite tightly coupled to the HTTP serving library I use (yay for consistent, sane abstractions), but the code might be useful all the same
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rascul
what does it mean on the wiki if i check that it's a minor edit? does that mean anything special?
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barnabywalters
rascul: loqi still squarks about it here
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rascul
oh i googled it, and minor edit doesn't appear to be what i want
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rascul.io
edited /deployment (+78) "/* Heroku git push */ add note about dokku"
(view diff)
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rascul
look i did something!
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barnabywalters
nicely done rascul — have you used dokku?
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rascul
it's nifty
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barnabywalters
I’ve read a bit about docker, it looks promising + already well adopted for deploying stuff
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barnabywalters
but a little intimidating
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rascul
you can spin up a preconfigured dokku image easily on digitalocean
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rascul
to give it a try i mean
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j12t
Has anybody figured out how to run, say, 5 instances of Wordpress on 5 different virtual hosts via Docker?
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rascul
docker or dokku?
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rascul
tbh my knowledge here isn't vast
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rascul
but it's easy to do with dokku
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j12t
Last I looked that really seemed out of scope.
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aaronpk
j12t: wordpress has pretty good multi-user support built in now
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j12t
I know. But: that means you have to run the same accessories / skins / plugins everywhere
#
j12t
And I’m making a more general point about any app
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barnabywalters
j12t: congratulations on launching the indiebox crowdfunding campaign btw!
#
j12t
Thank you. That was the easy part! The hard part is pushing it through …
#
tantek
j12t - yes, congrats!!!
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j12t
Some press is paying attention. We’ll see ...
#
j12t
Anybody have any good contacts to people who should cover this?
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barnabywalters
j12t: I’d be really interested to see designs for the unboxing flow — i.e. instructional materials guiding users through the process of setting up
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barnabywalters
that’s a place where it’d be really easy to beat-out most current routers, which IME have terrible pedagogy
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rascul
why do i have to be Rascul.io on the wiki? i have no capital letters!
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aaronpk
it's an annoying mediawiki thing
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j12t
I have some stuff written down, but I don’t want to publish that yet because somebody will take it as a promise, and code has a way of changing the spec
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rascul
i'm not much familiar with mediawiki because i tend to shun php things
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j12t
BTW, there will be an Indie Box meetup at the Hacker Dojo in Mountain View on Monday night. Everybody invited of course.
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aaronpk
i don't shun php but mediawiki can be kind of annoying
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aaronpk
there isn't really a better alternative though
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rascul
other wikis not as feature complete?
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barnabywalters
RE press contacts for j12t — who was it who covered indiewebcamp/mailpile/trrst etc in wired? I can’t remember his name
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rascul
makes sense though with mediawiki's popularity
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aaronpk
klint finley
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j12t
I’ve been talking to him … Klint.
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barnabywalters
that’s the on!
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j12t
BTW, would love feedback from all of you both on substance of Indie Box description, and style for purposes of crowdfunding.
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barnabywalters
j12t: bnvk has the most experience in that field
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j12t
Yep, and I have a separate chat open with him, except that he must be asleep ;-)
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barnabywalters
j12t: it might be an idea to put a really big banner across http://indieboxproject.org/blog/ saying “WE’RE CROWDFUNDING”
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barnabywalters
at the moment the link is a little buried
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j12t
Good point. Will do!
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barnabywalters
as far as the text goes, it’s very clear. one thing which is conspicuously absent is how setting up a domain for it will work
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rascul.io
edited /IRC_People (+49) "add me (rascul)"
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barnabywalters
that’s another flow which, if well designed, could give a compelling advantage over other (typically crappy) domain registration+management UIs
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aaronpk
i still think there's room to make a domain registration service that doesn't suck
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: oh absolutely
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rascul
aaronpk what would the requirements be for it not to suck?
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@leenau
So, @delicious is being sold again. Sounds like a good reason to make sure I have a copy of my 10,000+ marks, just in case. #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/464546218140770305)
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rascul
oh yeah i noticed something about delicious being sold on hackernews
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aaronpk
i'm thinking something with a signup as simple as twitter's but then you end up with a domain name
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kbs
j12t: just curious - is it possible to buy just the indiebox hardware alone at this point from somewhere? Or is it a pretty custom spec that you're having built for you?
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aaronpk
and progessively enhancing the experience so that you can do whatever you want with the domain but by default it does x
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rascul
aaronpk maybe we need an .indie gtld
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j12t
kbs: the only “custom” thing is that they put two drives into the box for us, instead of one. Go to http://mini-box.com/
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rascul
with indieweb guys being the registrar of course!
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kbs
j12t: ah - nice. (and thank you for the pointer :)
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aaronpk
j12t: you should get in touch with Intel and try to find a NUC box you can use
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j12t
Well, I don’t want us to be in the hardware business.
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andicascadesf
Hi KevinMarks! We are donating a few booths to local communities for our first UXNight in Mountain View on 4/29 and I was wondering if you + others were interested in representing Indie Web Camp.
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j12t
aaronpk: Yep! I shall … first focus on crowdfunding though.
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: yeah, like about.me but with an actual domain instead of a subdomain, and a really nice UI for doing domain adminney things
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andicascadesf
p.s. Hello everyone
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barnabywalters
greetings andicascadesf!
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: yeah
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aaronpk
greetings!
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pauloppenheim
backlog reading
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pauloppenheim
trailing slash: it's from POSIX
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pauloppenheim
j12t: have you used FreeNAS yet?
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rascul
pauloppenheim i kinda thought that
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KevinMarks
Sounds like fun - benwerd and Erinjo should come too
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andicascadesf
It’s at Intuit on 4/29, would be a very good way to meet some more of the design community and spread the word about IWC
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tantek.com
created /security (+476) "stub with breaches"
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aaronpk
hm 4/29 was a week ago
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andicascadesf
LOL sorry
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andicascadesf
5/29
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Loqi
!calc 5/29
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aaronpk
oh, may 29
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andicascadesf
haha sorry
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tantek.com
created /Heartbleed (+588) "stub with sites affected so we can keep track for indieweb reasons"
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KevinMarks
Aaronpk I remember a buy domains by text tool built by Emma Persky
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KevinMarks
So you could register domains you think of while out drinking
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pauloppenheim
j12t: FreeNAS has an app store now, and it's backed with BSD Jails for privilege separation
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rascul
drunken domain registration?!
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andicascadesf
KevinMarks what is your e-mail address so we can send you info on the booth, etc?
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j12t
pauloppenheim: didn’t know about the app store, but when I last looked at it, it was a bit too “integrated” to make it as broad of a platform as I’d like Indie Box to be
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pauloppenheim
j12t: also, mini-box are awesome, if they're who i think they are
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j12t
some guys in fremont?
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: aaronpk: shouldn’t that be the other way round? a service which requires a brethalyzer test before registering a domain?
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barnabywalters
s/brethalyzer/breathalyzer
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: KevinMarks: aaronpk: shouldn’t that be the other way round? a service which requires a breathalyzer test before registering a domain?
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j12t
pauloppenheim: pointer to the app store?
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rascul
barnabywalters i never would have rascul.io if i needed a breathalyzer to register a domain!
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rascul
i probably woulda got a less expensive tld heh
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pauloppenheim
j12t: it's in the freenas web console, lemme see if i can find an external link
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pauloppenheim
it's small
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pauloppenheim
j12t: owncloud is an app
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j12t
Oh, I see. Yeah, what I have mind for an app store is a bit of different beast ...
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j12t
should probably write that up
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tantek
wow a tale of two silos sold in 2005: Upcoming.org - now back in founder Andy's hands. Delicious, keeps being (re)sold like an unwanted hot potato.
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andicascadesf
Tantek says that email is so 1990s
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andicascadesf
hahaha
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j12t
I’ve been doing shaarli instead of delicious for about 5 months now, and I’m a lot happier.
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tantek
andicascadesf: you may be looking for: http://tantek.com/w/EmailEfail
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andicascadesf
What happens when you have an assistant and she has to be copied on everything?
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andicascadesf
Mainly to keep her in the loop
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andicascadesf
In that case, wouldn’t e-mail be most efficient?
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snarfed
grabs popcorn
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tantek
andicascadesf: see links in EmailEfail, IM to assistant would be more efficient than email
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tantek
lol snarfed
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andicascadesf
hahaha
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andicascadesf
KevinMarks, do you have an e-mail address? haha.
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KevinMarks
My email is linked from kevinmarks.com
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andicascadesf
making it difficult.
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tantek.com
created /Delicious (+509) "stub with dfn, sales history, see also"
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andicascadesf
got it
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andicascadesf
thanks!
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tantek.com
created /delicious (+23) "r"
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KevinMarks
Use a wiki to cc assistant?
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andicascadesf
possibly
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tantek.com
edited /projects (-19) "/* Shaarli */ link to local delicious page"
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tantek.com
edited /tags (+4) "linky"
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tantek.com
edited /likes (+4) "linky"
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tantek.com
edited /2013/UK/Demos (+8) "/* Alf Eaton */ linky linky"
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andicascadesf
KevinMarks I’ll sync up with you in the next couple of days and will send an e-mail with details.
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andicascadesf
Tantek, is the event on Wednesday, May 21st an IndieWebCamp event?
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gRegor`
Between IRC and twitter, that post sure is getting a workout.
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tantek.com
edited /site-changes (+11) "/* Redesigns */ linky linky"
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tantek.com
edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+4) "/* IndieBox IIW Session */ linky"
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tantek
gRegor`: where are you getting the template for the HWC events?
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tantek
I've noticed a few that are missing the default link to IRC archives
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gRegor`
I copied the initial version of the last event
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tantek
oh darn - no way to edit that!
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gRegor`
Which in turn I probably did before. Sorry. I could set up a template, though :)
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gRegor`
Default link to the event date's logs?
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tantek.com
edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+79) "/* Notes */ add irc link"
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tantek
ok so maybe for the next one you can copy the 2nd version instead of the initial version? ;)
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andicascadesf
I’m going to sign out, but will chat with you guys later!
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gRegor`
makes a mental note :)
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tantek
heh - and that one
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@tremaynett
How do you define data ownership? #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/464553429097263105)
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gRegor`
I should wrap up the template I was already working on for /events
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tantek.com
edited /Heartbleed (+1) "fix link"
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gRegor`
tantek: I'm thinking for events that span multiple dates, still only showing the first date in the date bubble. Think that's ok? Full dates will always display under the event name
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tantek.com
edited /Heartbleed (+15) "security"
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tantek
date bubble?
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gRegor`
Sorry, see the sandbox link ^
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gRegor`
This is for individual events on /events
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tantek
oh need
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tantek
maybe have two templates? one for one day and one for multiday?
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tantek
and then shrink the day font size a bit to allow for e.g. 28-29 ?
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gRegor`
Sure, but I haven't come up with a multi-day one that I think looks good. I feel like the second example there takes up too much space.
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gRegor`
I'm also thinking of edge cases where the event spans two months
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gRegor`
or even two years
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gRegor`
indienewyears
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tantek
gRegor`: you can cross those template bridges when we get to real world examples thereof
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tantek
until then, worry not, solve just today's use-cases
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gRegor`
Mmk
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gRegor`
Who, me? Overthink?
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gRegor`
</software engineer>
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tantek
indieweb folks, I started the http://indiewebcamp.com/Heartbleed page just to keep track of various services and software that anyone in the community may have been using that was vulnerable to Heartbleed but has been patched since - please add to it
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tantek
in particular add:
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tantek
any services that were vulnerable but which have been patched AND you've already changed your pw on