#indiewebcamp 2014-05-10

2014-05-10 UTC
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kbs A useful thing jwz points out (once you get past the condescending aggressiveness!) is the distinction between high-availability and backups - it took me quite some time to appreciate it...
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snarfed kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 9 karma
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kbs aw, thanks :)
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aaronpk the only way to truly back stuff up is to publish it and distribute it widely
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kbs all hail the linus way :)
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bret aaronpk: did you set up a btsync key for the wiki?
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@t Congrats! http://hello.idno.co to http://withknown.com & http://t.co/NbO4teDTM4's https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (ttk.me t4Vz1) (twitter.com/_/status/464928648219222016)
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tantek barely squeezed those both in! Four URLs in a tweet = lots of characters for t.cos
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tantek !tell benwerd, erinjo, j12t great job this week with the projects you've launched! your efforts have really leveled up the #indieweb and #ownyourdata momentum.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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j12t tantek : put something about indie box on your blog, that way I can publicly say thanks, too!
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Loqi j12t: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: great job this week with the projects you've launched! your efforts have really leveled up the #indieweb and #ownyourdata momentum.
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tantek j12t: every tweet of mine since 2010 originates with a permalink at my blog :D http://tantek.com/2014/129/t1/congrats-withknown-indie-box-indiegogo
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tantek currently at the top of my home page: tantek.com
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j12t I know, but that’s very sparse compared to what you just typed into irc
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tantek ah, ok
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@ayirpelle RT @t: Congrats! http://hello.idno.co to http://withknown.com & http://t.co/NbO4teDTM4's https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (ttk.me t4Vz1) (twitter.com/_/status/464930388222021632)
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@indieboxproject RT @t: Congrats! http://hello.idno.co to http://withknown.com & http://t.co/NbO4teDTM4's https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb (ttk.me t4Vz1) (twitter.com/_/status/464930603696013312)
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@t Great launches this week @BenWerd @ErinJo @Johannes_Ernst! Your work has leveled up #indieweb #ownyourdata momentum. (ttk.me t4Vz2) (twitter.com/_/status/464931249245548544)
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @t: Great launches this week @BenWerd @ErinJo @Johannes_Ernst! Your work has leveled up #indieweb #ownyourdata momentum. (ttk.me t4Vz2) (twitter.com/_/status/464931468155035649)
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bret i wanna see the trsst guy implement indieweb standards, cause there is no way im running java or writing this kind of schema: https://github.com/TrsstProject/trssthttps://github.com/TrsstProject/trsst
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bret woops https://github.com/TrsstProject/trsst
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tantek j12t there you go :) http://tantek.com/2014/129/t2/great-launches-leveled-up-indieweb-ownyourdata
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tantek bret - is Trsst a monoculture?
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tantek perhaps document in /monoculture if that is the case?
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bret tantek: im not totally sure, its built on rss
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@Johannes_Ernst Thanks @t. We're all trying to do the same thing: #takeback the #internet /cc @benwerd @erinjo #indieweb http://upon2020.com/banter/?p=202 (twitter.com/_/status/464932009458929664)
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bret j12t: trying to figure out if I have a spare $500
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tantek j12t love seeing the permalinks to upon2020 at the end of your tweets. makes me smile every time :)
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j12t This is cute. This line shows up here first, before Wordpress has decided that it did indeed make the post.
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tantek slow wordpress is slow
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j12t tantek — you made me
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j12t my setup is still very clumsy, but I’m trying
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tantek welcome to the club :)
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tantek my setup has been clumsy since 2010 ;)
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j12t bret : not sure what I should advise :-)
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j12t gtg, l8r
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tantek l8r!
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bret tantek: trsst has a monocultury feel to it. he made it into the https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/refinement/trsst-a-distributed-secure-blog-platform-for-the-open-web refinement round
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bret maybe if he gets additional funding, more resources could broaden the scope
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bret bummed not to see idno or the indieweb apprentiships make it
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bret mailpile made it though!
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kylewm.com edited /monoculture (-3) "it's -> its" (view diff)
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kylewm bret: any more details anywhere about this? "folks from the indieweb and Evan from pump.io have reached a censuses to collaborate!" http://bret.io/2013/08/08/t5/
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bret kylewm: I talked to Evan about that sometime last year in person and he said he wanted to see cross site posting in pump
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bret i submitted a simple uf2 patch to pump and let it sit
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kylewm yep, I've seen your patch
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kylewm probably before I knew about indiewebcamp actually
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bret with the hope of discussing it more. Evan is rarely on irc though, and I have not really pushed it
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bret kylewm: my guess is that its low on his priority. he has done much more on on POSSE for pump, which is fine by me :)
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bret pump has a pretty solid community founded from his work on identica.
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kylewm cool, I like pump but I did get the impression that he has more backlog work on it than one person could ever feasibly do
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bret kinda a lot of 'i just want something I can use now' type of crowd
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bret linuxy sysadmin types
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bret who tend to be a little more resistant to cutting edge things
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@ayirpelle RT @t: Great launches this week @BenWerd @ErinJo @Johannes_Ernst! Your work has leveled up #indieweb #ownyourdata momentum. (ttk.me t4Vz2) (twitter.com/_/status/464934833630633984)
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bret totally fune, but yeah ihes interested. i was hoping someone from pumps community would show interest
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bret fine*
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bret tantek: mozilla uses buddy cloud?
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tantek bret - no idea. mozilla uses lots of different things. and mozillians themselves use lots of different things. you'd have to check sites and people case-by-case, and you could likely investigate as well as I could.
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rascul according to buddycloud.com, mozilla does use it
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rascul also, it's in mozilla labs https://mozillalabs.com/en-US/Buddycloud/
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rascul i was looking at buddycloud recently, i think i did find mozilla using it somewhere
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ben_thatmust hey guys
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rascul hi hi
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rascul umm
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rascul you're missing part of your name
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ben_thatmust yeah, that one is still logged on at work
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rascul oh
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ben_thatmust i just leave it logged in there
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rascul so he's an imposter!
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rascul give me the address, i'll tar and feather him
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ben_thatmust hah
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ben_thatmust Boston...
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rascul my dog's name is boston
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rascul not gonna tar and feather her, sorry
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rascul but she did catch a bird today, so i guess she feathered herself?
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ben_thatmust hah
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ben_thatmust should probably leave that convo for the other chat though
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rascul yeah possibly
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bret thanks rascul
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rascul thanks for what?
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rascul what did i do this time?
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rascul hrm, must be good if i'm getting thanked!
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rascul oh, buddy cloud stuff? sure, i'm actually trying to dig up mozilla's buddy cloud that i may have found at one point
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tantek have a great weekend everyone! signing off. :)
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rascul bret looks like mozilal has/had a vps for buddycloud? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781964
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@npdoty @konklone that feature is a lovely side effect of the indieweb method: a fav has its own URL and you can fav any URL. Favs all the way down. (twitter.com/_/status/464946107324182528)
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@TheTweetserve RT @npdoty: @konklone that feature is a lovely side effect of the indieweb method: a fav has its own URL and you can fav any URL. Favs all … (twitter.com/_/status/464950678356381697)
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JonathanNeal hello
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@seanhopp RT @t: at last night's #microformats 7th celebration, @willnorris and I came up with "POSSE" as an #indieweb approach: http://tantek.com/2012/173/t1/posse-core-indieweb-approach (twitter.com/_/status/464957903762255872)
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JonathanNeal what’s crackin’
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@benwerd Thank you to @t, @aaronpk, @caseorganic & @skinny for founding such an inspiring, welcoming community. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/464971054968868864)
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@coderdojoli RT @NZN: #freedombox session and #indiebox demo at #iiw to reclaim control of #indieweb by #SovereignIndividuals ... the underlying shift i… (twitter.com/_/status/464974484647448576)
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @NZN: #freedombox session and #indiebox demo at #iiw to reclaim control of #indieweb by #SovereignIndividuals ... the underlying shift i… (twitter.com/_/status/464978408380694529)
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@indieboxproject RT @NZN: #freedombox session and #indiebox demo at #iiw to reclaim control of #indieweb by #SovereignIndividuals ... the underlying shift i… (twitter.com/_/status/464978506472882176)
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@dariusdunlap RT @t: Great launches this week @BenWerd @ErinJo @Johannes_Ernst! Your work has leveled up #indieweb #ownyourdata momentum. (ttk.me t4Vz2) (twitter.com/_/status/464979811899695104)
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: Thank you to @t, @aaronpk, @caseorganic & @skinny for founding such an inspiring, welcoming community. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/464983580821553152)
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@aaronpk RT @benwerd: Thank you to @t, @aaronpk, @caseorganic & @skinny for founding such an inspiring, welcoming community. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/464983871885701120)
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david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (+115) "/* Features in Development */" (view diff)
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@Johannes_Ernst .@r0bl0rd you might have seen @indieboxproject crowdfunding this week, if not right down your #indieweb http://upon2020.com/banter/?p=206 (twitter.com/_/status/464991787308699649)
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kylewm hmm, does anyone know if releasing my project itself as GPL prevents me from factoring out libraries and making them LGPL?
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pauloppenheim kylewm: if you're the only copyright holder, you can do whatever you want whenever you want. As soon as you accept a patch, things change
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pauloppenheim kylewm: why use a share-alike style license in the first place if that's not your intent?
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kylewm great question, I think that is what I have to decide
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kylewm I believe in copyleft in theory, but in practice, there are a lot of people just experimenting here, not planning or ready to release their code, and i don't want to disallow that at all
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kylewm where is indiewebcamp.com/licensing when I need it :)
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pauloppenheim kylewm: who would you like to use your code? What is their license? Could they use GPL code?
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Loqi their license is not compat
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pauloppenheim kylewm: idno is apache 2: https://github.com/idno/idno/blob/master/LICENSE
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kylewm pauloppenheim: for this, I want everyone doing python indieweb stuff to be able to use it, kartik, bear, you etc.
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kylewm ah nice, I'm putting together a stub page with the major projects licenses
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pauloppenheim kylewm: i do MIT, usually
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kylewm looks like aaron and benwerd use Apache, Barnaby MIT, snarfed and tantek public domain
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pauloppenheim public domain! i love it
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kylewm ha I know
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pauloppenheim nothing says "i don't give a fuck about how you use my code" like public domain.
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pauloppenheim so, nobody is using copyleft
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pauloppenheim i am guessing because we are all employed ;)
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kylewm hehe, interesting
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pauloppenheim sadly, work is taking over all of my spare coding moments these days, fortunately i'm working on web-related stuff now
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kylewm that's nice at least, you mentioned something about Windows Azure the other day?
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pauloppenheim so i get more PEP-333 knowledge to my already curiously-stocked shelf, if anything pops up
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pauloppenheim yeah
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pauloppenheim we use azure
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pauloppenheim and it has a free tier
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pauloppenheim and you can push from git
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pauloppenheim so, free cloud hosting
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pauloppenheim well, we're well into the not-free tier
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pauloppenheim but it's useful for quickly getting PHP, python, node, or even ASP (if that's your thing) up quickly
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kylewm ah, awesome
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pauloppenheim Azure is a weird combination of PAAS and IAAS
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kylewm I didn't know anything about it, but that sounds pretty great
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pauloppenheim well, they want hackers to use it
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pauloppenheim actually
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pauloppenheim the azure team appears to open source a fair amount of code
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kylewm except I know scott hanselmann likes it
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kylewm also I was wrong about tantek, CASSIS.js is cc-by-sa .. contributions from others are released into the public domain
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kylewm (which I didn't know was a software license)
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pauloppenheim microsoft azure code on github: https://github.com/Azure/azure-sdk-for-python
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pauloppenheim which is mindblowing in several ways
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bear cc-by-sa is not technically a software license
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pauloppenheim https://github.com/Azure/azure-sdk-tools-xplat
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pauloppenheim i'm not trying to be a fan of microsoft
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pauloppenheim i was a mac user for a long time, and now use linux
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pauloppenheim and it seems their azure team is probably a lot like me! ;)
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kbs kylewm: these days (when I remember to add one at all :) I've been using the 2-clause bsd license. It's short and (fwiw) GPL compatible.
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kbs (as are many others of course.)
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kbs used to be a GPL fanatic in my misbegotten youth
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kylewm kbs: pauloppenheim: thank you both for weighing in :)
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kylewm i like BSD too, short, to the point, and free of legalese
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bear i've used in the past: MIT, BSD 2-clause, MPL and plain ol' public domain
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kylewm MPL is Mozilla?
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bear yes
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bear MPL and Apache2 if I know it will be used commercially
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kylewm ah, what is the difference for commercial stuff?
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bear patent protection mostly
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pauloppenheim turns out all the legalese means something
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bear :)
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kylewm ha
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bear the "fun" is when you realize that you really should have gotten explicit agreement from contributors about them agreeing to the license
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kylewm sigh, I'm sure this falls under the "stuff that gets in the way of actually building things category" of IWC.
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bear the core of IWC is building for yourself - so have at it :)
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kylewm.com created /licensing (+1873) "stubbed out licenses and some "research" on who's using what" (view diff)
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kylewm thanks all, please correct or tell me if I said anything wrong or stupid on that page
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Loqi [mention] http://kylewm.com/note/2014/05/10/1 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/licensing (webmention)
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KevinMarks There's a reason we chose cc0
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kylewm KevinMarks: for microformats.org?
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KevinMarks And then iwc
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KevinMarks If you want usable cla ashamed
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KevinMarks s/ashamed/agreements try owf
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: If you want usable cla agreements try owf
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KevinMarks https://sites.google.com/site/openwebfoundation/
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@kevinmarks RT @t: Great launches this week @BenWerd @ErinJo @Johannes_Ernst! Your work has leveled up #indieweb #ownyourdata momentum. (ttk.me t4Vz2) (twitter.com/_/status/465015144993398784)
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@whaity @defmoves https://indiewebcamp.com/why Are you in? Makes sense (twitter.com/_/status/465030282148851712)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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KartikPrabhu wassup indie-visitor ?
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rascul my web site design moving along! i guess soon i should make sure it works in more browsers than mine thouh
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ben_thatmust might be a good idea
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rascul hrm i wonder that if the user has a different default font size if it breaks my site, i'll have to check that
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ben_thatmust most browsers scale that well, except safari... it sucks at that
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ben_thatmust like really really sucks
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rascul safari and ie are the ones i'm not currently capable of testing
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rascul i may have to recruit some help with that!
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ben_thatmust rascul, i just have a virtualbox of windows in case i ever want to test IE
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ben_thatmust but there is always http://netrenderer.com/ too
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rascul ooo this netrenderer looks useful
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rascul i don't have a (legal) copy of any windows version handy right now
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rascul or illegal for that matter
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rascul hrm and now i'm running into a problem of mixing px and rem
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rascul is there a way in js to figure out how many px are in 1 rem?
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ben_thatmust http://povonte.com/convert-px-to-rem/ does this help?
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rascul it assumes default font size is 16
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rascul i'm against assuming default font size, or setting an explicit base size
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ben_thatmust well i don't know that you can determine size from within JS
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rascul i think i may be on to something though
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rascul http://stackoverflow.com/a/15195345
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ben_thatmust why would you want to though, isn't the idea of rem to just define everything in rem?
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rascul yes, but window.scrollY gives me pixels
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rascul which conflicts with everything being rem because i'm using it to set something to position:fixed when scroll so far
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ben_thatmust http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10305993/jquery-javascript-convert-pixels-to-em-in-a-easy-way
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ben_thatmust just use the html element instead of the parent
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rascul yeah that's about what i figured to do
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rascul see here's what i got http://crash.rascul.io/
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rascul feel free to give me any sort of criticism if you look at it
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rascul btw this to get the font size window.getComputedStyle(document.getElementsByTagName("html")[0], null).fontSize;
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rascul oh i'm doing it all wrong because i can just get the position of an element and use that
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ben_thatmust oh nice, i really like it
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rascul cool beans!
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rascul working on the inner part now
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rascul i'm lost in floats heh
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kylewm.com edited /licensing (+1) "/* Permissive */ modified BSD -> simplified BSD" (view diff)
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rascul hrm any thoughts on fair license? http://opensource.org/licenses/Fair
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kylewm.com edited /licensing (+130) "add link to Atwood article" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /licensing (-4) "/* External License */ formatting" (view diff)
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rascul i don't like gpl
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rascul shouldn't need to be an attorney to understand a software license
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kylewm.com edited /licensing (+157) "/* Permissive */ explain difference b/t modified and simplified BSD licenses" (view diff)
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kylewm rascul: yeah I am dropping GPL ... I'm not writing linux, i'm writing boring code that implements interesting protocols
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rascul yeah
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rascul gpl probably good for big things maybe but not for simple things that simple minded me write!
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rascul typically i would use wtfpl
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kylewm somehow that does not surprise me
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kylewm ;)
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kylewm I like http://unlicense.org/ for that purpsoe
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rascul it looks similar except that it takes more time to read
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rascul two big issues i've seen that people have with wtfpl is the language and that it doesn't state there's no warranty
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rascul personally i don't feel that stating no warranty should be necessary
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kylewm wtfpl just seems unnecessarily snarky to me
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rascul heh i like it because it's like a jab at all the big licenses
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rascul i keep looking at fair license, but it doesn't really say that you can do whatever you want, it just says to keep the licenses and there's no warranty
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rascul i guess i should correct my earlier statement: i don't like gpl for my stuff
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kylewm ah yeah, i think that is my attitude too. i'm glad it exists, i'm glad that important software used it, but i don't think it's going to negatively impact the world if someone uses my blog engine for commercial purposes. :)
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rascul i don't care one bit whatsoever if someone uses my blog engine type thing for commercial purposes
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rascul i write my software for me and me alone, but if someone else finds it useful, i'm ok with that
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rascul maybe if something i write gets big and widespread my attitude might change on that particular project, but that hasn't happened yet and i don't see it happening in the near future
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aaronpk good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk today is data recovery and backup planning day!
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rascul almost works right but the floats on the inside are still winning http://crash.rascul.io/
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rascul morning aaronpk
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rascul didn't mean to ignore you heh
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rascul oh i needed to use clear to fix my floats, now i'm winning again!
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KevinMarks helpful review of hosting options https://medium.com/p/b8c5c0dc621c
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rascul hehe i like the title
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rascul in fact i like the whole article!
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cweiske.de edited /PHP (+15) "/* Projects */ link stapibas" (view diff)
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kbs rascul: (only as you ask :) love sites that render reasonably without javascript
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kbs as I use noscript. There's some strange shadowing issue at narrower screen widths at http://crash.rascul.io/ (firefox on macos) - be happy to upload a screenshot if that's useful
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cweiske.de edited /Bitbucket (+17) "its a silo" (view diff)
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rascul kbs i haven't made it work right on smaller screens yet, but does it work right with no javascript? i haven't checked that yet either, and it only uses just a little bit
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rascul just found this https://asunews.asu.edu/20140428-indie-web-movement
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kbs rascul: seems reasonable to me with all the placeholder text - let me upload a screenshot anyway so you can admire your handiwork as I do :)
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rascul wondering if i should link it here http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb but it mostly seems to reference another post that's already linked
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rascul kbs sure thanks
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rascul the only js it uses it to make stuff fixed when you scroll
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cweiske.de edited /licensing (+57) "/* Copyleft */" (view diff)
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kbs rascul: ah, I see - makes sense - the whole page scrolls for me (and that also works for your site)
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rascul pushed my latest changes to make the stuff inside line up right
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kbs http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=d5b6438
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rascul ahh yeah i gotta make it work for smaller resolutions, and it appears it's not loading the fonts there also
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rascul i'm unsure if i like the shadow stuff
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kbs rascul: fonts - right. As you can tell, it's not an actual obstacle for most things (unless it uses icon fonts as buttons and one can't figure out what a button is supposed to do)
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rascul yeah it does
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rascul http://rascul.io/rascul-top.png and http://rascul.io/rascul-scrolled.png
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rascul (don't get attached to those urls they won't last too long)
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kbs aaronpk: best luck vis-a-vis data recovery. Your notes here have also helped increase Amazon's revenue by a couple hundred bucks vis-a-vis drives and misc peripherals
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk I'd be curious to see your (new) setup documented
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kbs not much actually - just rolling over new drives, it's about time. [I have parts of my current setup documented at /backup]
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aaronpk cool
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rascul kbs what browser is that?
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kbs rascul: firefox 29, mac os
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rascul i wonder why it doesn't load the fonts?
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kbs rascul: I think it might be one of the plugins, let me poke a bit
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kbs aaronpk: new peripherals are mostly for my friend - she's interested in the auto-archiving thing I've got going for email+facebook+photos from my android phone - I thought I'd risk attaching a pi rather than an openwrt'ed router just so I can play with it
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kbs just upgraded to firefox 29 and can't find the place where noscript reports its status!
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rascul 24 esr here but i'll install some more browsers later on to test em out and stuff
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kbs rascul: fwiw, yes - it's noscript - blocking openfontlibrary.org
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rascul ahh ok
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rascul i wonder if it would be worth hosting those fonts myself? i just now added some fallback font familys though
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kbs (guess would depend to some extent on how much patience you can tolerate for random riff-raff running noscript :)
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kylewm.com edited /Python (+167) "/* Libraries */ added mf2datetime" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Python (-2) "/* Libraries */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /commons (+30) "links to licensing" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind (-4) "remove reference to GPL" (view diff)
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kbs maybe adding titles or something to the <a> tags would help for the on-hover-able situations
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kylewm.com edited /Python (+37) "/* Projects */ remove reference to Red Wind being GPL" (view diff)
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rascul ahh good one, the titles
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rascul.io created /User:Rascul.io (+204) "Create my user page" (view diff)
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kbs fwiw - KartikPrabhu goes bananas with svg rather than using icon fonts - which works nicely with noscript. He'll probably have some neat ideas, should definitely ask him when he's awake
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kbs c.f. http://kartikprabhu.com/ - funky hover effect on his icon
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rascul i was thinking using images after i saw the icon font wasn't loading for you
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kbs true, that would probably work for even more situations
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rascul i can't look at that page
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rascul the circle thing in the corner is way too distracting
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rascul i can't help but to play with it
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kbs haha :)
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Loqi nice
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rascul is easily amused
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kbs think I now understand what a cat feels with a laser pointer ;)
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ben_thatmust rascul "open sores"? ewwww
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rascul oh heh
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rascul don't worry it'll be changed to source in due time when i push it to github
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ben_thatmust yeah i figured, haha
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rascul at the moment i'm trying to figure out how to make an indieauth extension for flask
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rascul no idea how this will turn out!
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@kyle_wm Well, I decided to drop GPL for my indieweb projects and go with pretty much the polar opposite (simplified BSD)…http://kylewm.com/note/2014/05/10/2 (twitter.com/_/status/465172641427767296)
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kylewm rascul: do you use Flask-Login?
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kylewm and phew, I didn't get the "open sores" = "open source" joke. relieved :)
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kbs kylewm++ nice summary. and, ditto :)
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Loqi kylewm has 10 karma
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rascul kylewm i do
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rascul it's easy peasy
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kylewm oh thanks, kbs!
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kylewm rascul: I'd definitely use a Flask-Login indieauth extension
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kylewm I'm trying to pull stuff out into libraries too
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bnvk wat? A Flask IndieAuth lib, where?
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rascul currently it is vaporware!
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rascul but maybe i'll have something in due time
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rascul hrm writing flask extensions seems kinda foreign to me i will put this off for later when i learn more about it
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bnvk hehe
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kbs idly wondering whether "the web" should learn from the brain and have some way of auto-forgetting some things. eg: an infrequently clicked link reduces the probability of that link remaining over time. Conversely, a frequently clicked link begins to cache the linked-to page, to increase the likelihood of the content remaining
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kbs (blame it on feeling sleepy on this sunny day and procrastinating on getting things done...)
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bnvk SnapWeb©
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kbs heh
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kbs well - the thing that brought it up actually, was wondering what might happen if the indiewebcampwiki were to suddenly go bellyup
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aaronpk speaking of which
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aaronpk i'm literally *right now* setting up more backups of it
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kbs oh :) sorry - unfortunate/bad example - wasn't thinking
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aaronpk i'm setting it up so there's a folder of .txt files and png/jpg images that gets exported from the wiki
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kbs nice
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aaronpk and will host it on btsync so anybody can keep a copy
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kylewm aaron has us all thinking about backups, that's a good thing!
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kylewm tiny silver lining on a really unfortunate thing
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aaronpk yeah
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kbs it also triggered the thought that maybe as I browse, it might be useful to locally cache things that I visit often.
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aaronpk i would love to see all that be part of an IndieArchive system
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aaronpk might be time to flesh out that idea some more
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@visitlakeanna Policy:No #Facebook #dataslave formats, ie #instagram #whatsapp #OculusRift will be interacted with by this account. #indieRespect #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/465190142622593024)
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kbs aaronpk: cool :)
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aaronpk kbs: maybe add those two ideas? http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive
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kbs cool - clearly not the first time this idea has come up :)
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aaronpk although most of that page is about archiving in the context of pages your site links to/from
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kylewm btw, if anyone is around San Jose tonight and interested in electronic music, I think this show at the Tech museum is going to be bonkers http://www.thetech.org/plan-your-visit/special-exhibitions/rebootmusic
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kylewm interested in electronic music and/or cyborgs :)
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kbs aaronpk: feel more comfortable adding to /IndieArchive if/when I or someone actually implements some sort of local caching proxy - right now the 'idea' such as it is, feels too vague to me...
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aaronpk that's what a "Brainstorming" header is for :)
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kbsriram.com edited /IndieArchive (+684) "well, okay." (view diff)
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rascul ponders databases
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aaronpk yay thx
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rascul is there a json to html type tool?
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rascul oh for microformats i mean
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rascul oh i guess i could just look at the wiki...
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kbs rascul: fwiw - tantek has his polemic re databases here http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern - while I'm less strident :) for archival purposes at the least, it's seems useful to always have a bunch of simple files that can be masaged into new database (versions/formats/types) etc over time.
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rascul kbs yeah i've been looking at that
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kbs ah, okay
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rascul i see stuff for html to json but not the other way
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rascul i'm thinking up my storage idea, i should note this stuff down somewhere
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rascul i used to be of the though to do markdown stuff, but it seems to me that since i know html then maybe i should skip the markdown and store the html for my posts in a bunch of files
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kbs One slightly less obvious thing (for some definition of obvious? :) is filesystems themselves are databases - they too can become obsolete...
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rascul s/though/thought/
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Loqi rascul meant to say: i used to be of the thought to do markdown stuff, but it seems to me that since i know html then maybe i should skip the markdown and store the html for my posts in a bunch of files
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rascul yes, i want to use fs for a db
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rascul i figured like this: i have a b-tree filesystem perfect for storing things, so why do i need something else?
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kbs just make sure your backups aren't on some exotic filesystem (or soon to be exotic filesystem :)
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rascul oh ext4 it is
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rascul they're already on ext4 i mean
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aaronpk the main difference is that it's easy to transfer between filesystems because they all appear the same to the OS
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aaronpk whereas switching between even different versions of MySQL is not always possible
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rascul if i were to use sql it would be postgres
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aaronpk same idea
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rascul yeah
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kbs (until you find that the last backup you had was on a sunos ufs filesystem, but I digress... :)
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aaronpk btw if you know of any significant differences between the way mysql and postgres work with regards to things on that page, that would be worth noting
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rascul i'm not knowledgable of mysql
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rascul can one comment from their site on a post from someone else's?
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bnvk because the data sed so http://tylervigen.com/
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KevinMarks_ JSON to HTML is XOXO http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code-python
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aaronpk rascul: you mean like this? http://aaron.pk/r4Vy2
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rascul three links at once oh my!
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rascul KevinMarks_ thanks, i may possibly use that
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KevinMarks_ code is a bit old
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KevinMarks_ I should revive and maintain it
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KevinMarks_ (see how old the HTML header it makes is)
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Loqi yea
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rascul aaronpk yes exactly that i think! say i comment on your post, i need to send a webmention so you know about it?
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KevinMarks_ I had a PHP version too: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-sample-code-php
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aaronpk yep! lots of docs on that: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply
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KevinMarks_ which looks like the wiki markup ate it
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KevinMarks_ (It used to be on a different wiki)
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rascul this is good, if i don't need for people to comment on my site, then that makes it much simpler
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aaronpk bret: want to start syncing a copy of the wiki?
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rascul because i don't have to worry about users and logins and forms
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aaronpk argh case in-sensitive filesystems ftl!
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kbs oh - cool - the Special:Export url also works, it seems
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bnvk brilliant!!!! http://jonmitchell.net/work/how-smartphone-ui-should-work
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kbs aaronpk: the irc logs don't come under the purview of the wiki backup (clearly) right?
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aaronpk correct
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aaronpk that's a whole different story
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aaronpk probably worth doing, but separately
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kbs *nod* funnily enough, that's the URL I visit the most often :) was starting to think there's usually enough interesting stuff there that it's worth grepping [for me anyway] every once in a while
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aaronpk it wouldn't take much for me to add a .txt version of the irc logs to the filesystem
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aaronpk ok so since we have a bunch of wiki pages that are the same name but different case, how should I be handling that?
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/geo and http://indiewebcamp.com/Geo for example
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aaronpk in theory one of those will always be a redirect to the other
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rascul can you not archive it in a case sensitive way so you don't have to bother with that?
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aaronpk well linux filesystems are case sensitive, but mac isn't
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kbs speaking of the subtle issues with filesystems... :)
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rascul hrm
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aaronpk so if you download a copy, you'll get an incomplete picture
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rascul you could maybe put it in a tarball and let users figure it out but that might not be ideal
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aaronpk yeah that seems less than ideal
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aaronpk the neat thing is you'll be able to run btsync and you'll always have an up to date copy of the whole wiki
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rascul i need to learn me about this btsync stuff
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aaronpk it's realy easy to set up, you should download it and i'll give you the code to downlaod the wiki
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kbs I've sort of also wondered whether a tarball of a git format might potentially allow for protection against fat-fingering something
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rascul i shall
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aaronpk i spoze I could check everything in to a git repo all the time, but that seems less automated and more likely to fail at some point
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kbs was thinking more doing that just when tarballing it (should you ever decide to tarball your downloads I guess, dunno :) I know little about mediawiki, and should stop random peanut gallery commentary...
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rascul duplicity is good for tarball stuff
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rascul aaronpk i got btsync installed
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aaronpk rascul: sweet
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aaronpk one sec
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ben_thatmust wait, hfs isn't case sensative?
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kbs it's a funny case-preserving/but case-insensitive deal. Silly as heck
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aaronpk yeah i think i'm going to have to not create duplicate files
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aaronpk "duplicate"
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aaronpk i'm going to have to do some fancy logic for only creating the non-redirect version
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aaronpk here's a question, is it worth storing the redirect pages in the archive at all?
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kbs out of curiosity - does mediawiki in essense just have a (btsync'able I guess) directory of content? So restore == copy back this directory and point the software at this?
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aaronpk no it stores everything in mysql
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aaronpk i'm just exporting all the pages to .txt files so that is sharable
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kbs *nod* I see, thanks :)
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aaronpk seems more usable than sharing a mysqldump around :)
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kbs :) how easy is it to convert those txt files back into a usable wiki?
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aaronpk pretty easy since they are mediawiki source
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aaronpk i actually had this working bi-directionally when aaronparecki.com was mediawiki
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aaronpk so I could create a new .txt file and it'd go create the mediawiki page
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kbs ah, pretty neat. thanks - was just curious how the pieces fit together
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aaronpk it allowed me to edit my site while offline, and dropbox would sync the content back up later
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/Local-MediaWiki-Sync
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kbs hahe, neat. (And now, firefox is giving me an OCSP error, sigh.)
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aaronpk for github?
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kbs yea
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aaronpk weird
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kbs pretty sure you've taken this into account (but having burnt myself a few times :) would be awesome to allow for snapshots of some kind rather than only a 'latest backup'. (c.f. my scars - some script runs rm -r on something, not noticed for a while, backup runs, and all copies are now useless.)
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aaronpk yeah, was thinking about that
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aaronpk do you think that should be part of the shared folder?
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aaronpk like, would you mind hosting weekly snapshots of the wiki?
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kbs I'm not sure about the actual mechanics to be honest - not least because I don't understand mediawiki (and its internal versioning of content as well)
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aaronpk ok here's a concrete example
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aaronpk say you're going to help host a backup copy of the wiki
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aaronpk it's going to be several hundred .txt files and ~100mb of images
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+39) (view diff)
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aaronpk would you mind if that was duplicated a few times to keep weekly/monthly snapshots?
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rascul i would not
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kbs I think if that was the only option - might be least worst to keep a few versions back (spaced 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, something like that)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (-1) (view diff)
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rascul i have no wiki password, what do i put in config.php?
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aaronpk rascul: don't run that, i'm making a bunch of changes to it
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rascul oh i was just gonna do the import
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kbs but that's also why I was initially wondering whether git might serve that purpose - but not fully sure :) also, I guess mediawiki has some internal understanding of versioning as well
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aaronpk yeah mediawiki keeps a full history of each page at every revision
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gRegor` Ok, I think my dt-start and dt-end, with timezone offsets are correct, but pin13 doesn't show the timezone offset: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox Thoughts?
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aaronpk rascul: yeah i'm going to have something way better for you in a sec, but i'm handling some more edge cases with the wiki right now
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rascul ok
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gRegor` I followed this: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing
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gRegor` And a reminder that I have to use the <span>-soup because mediawiki limits showing template variables in <time> elements and others.
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gRegor` Let me try adding seconds to the times...
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+6) (view diff)
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kbs (aaronpk: fwiw, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_rotation_scheme#Grandfather-father-son has been the "traditional" way to do this, sans something like git...)
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gRegor` Aha
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gRegor` pin13 likes it now.
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gRegor` Eenteresting.
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kbs aaronpk: and sure - goes without saying, be happy to suck down copies into whatever random boxes I have scattered around :) I can also potentially keep the various versions regardless naturally
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+34) (view diff)
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rascul IndieWebCamp could not send your confirmation mail. Please check your e-mail address for invalid characters.
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rascul Mailer returned: Unknown error in PHP's mail() function
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rascul i broke it!
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aaronpk what did you do!
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rascul i tried to send a confirmation mail to verify my email address
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aaronpk i don't even know where that is, why did you try to verify your email? i should probably try to disable that
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rascul so it would email me for pages i watch
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aaronpk oh hmm I don't think I've ever set up mail there
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rascul ahh ok
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kbs *waves* will check back later on how to be another sink for any wiki copies :)
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rascul bye
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+1099) "/* Braindump */ mf2 date and time parsing" (view diff)
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gRegor` aaronpk: Is pin13.net yours? Does it use php-mf2?
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gRegor` !tell tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com#mf2_date_and_time_parsing
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+120) "/* mf2 date and time parsing */" (view diff)
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gRegor` May need more coffee. I'm making silly mistakes today.
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gRegor` !tell tantek You can probably disregard that link. Apparently I need more coffee because I'm making silly mistakes. :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed hey gRegor`, remember when you wanted the twitter user's URL from bridgy mf2 pages that showed their web site instead?
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snarfed did you end up extracting their Twitter handle from the u-id? or do you still want their twitter URL?
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snarfed also, yeah, pin13.net is aaronpk's and it does use php-mf2
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KartikPrabhu kbs: rascul: i use icon fonts too. For all the little icons in the menu items for example. Though even there I prioritise SVG over others :)
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j12t just noticing that wikipedia has no entry on indieweb
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KartikPrabhu I blame tommorris! :P
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gRegor` I haven't done any more on that, no. I've thought about it some and was thinking I might just use the same name on the same post as a pretty good guess it's the same person. Lower priority, though.
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gRegor` But yes, it would be awesome if the same profile URL (Twitter, FB) showed up in all wm, in addition to the author's site
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KartikPrabhu is out!
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gRegor` yeah, it's super nice. Get outside. :)
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: may do sometime soon
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gRegor` snarfed: For now it's pretty low priority. It's not like it looks bad having a separate wm for a comment and a like, e.g. http://gregorlove.com/2014/01/1178/#comments
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snarfed gRegor`: got it, thanks
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@NZN Support the #indieBox One on #indieGoGo https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #vrm (twitter.com/_/status/465231515790479360)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+36) "/* One-day-event template testing */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Feedback welcome on the one-day-event template. Examples: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox I'm heading out, but leave me a tell or add to the feedback section of the sandbox page.
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+4) "/* One-day-event with UTC offset */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com () "(-1066) /* mf2 date and time parsing */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+0) "/* One-day-event with no UTC offset */" (view diff)
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@indieboxproject RT @NZN: Support the #indieBox One on #indieGoGo https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #vrm (twitter.com/_/status/465233453407940608)
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gRegor` !tell tantek Instead, have a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @NZN: Support the #indieBox One on #indieGoGo https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #vrm (twitter.com/_/status/465234494837248000)
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@Nymble_Me RT @NZN: Support the #indieBox One on #indieGoGo https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #vrm (twitter.com/_/status/465234655705174016)
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@aaronpk @squarespace is getting some #indieweb love from @caseorganic on #probablyscience (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/10/3/indieweb-probablyscience) (twitter.com/_/status/465245657452666881)
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@thedatahive For the #indieweb to be open to everyone, it can’t just be a niche for technologists & early adopters: http://datahiveconsulting.com/2014/04/10/indiewebify-me-and-the-knowledge-gap/ (twitter.com/_/status/465246183783686144)
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@aaronpk @thedatahive We're working on it ;-) http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/05/10/1/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/465247041078034432)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/05/10/1/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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@thedatahive Were paying attention & hope to help RT @aaronpk: @thedatahive We're working on it ;-) http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (http://t.co/SQ6yPny5t6) (twitter.com/_/status/465255212316639232)
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@artwisanggeni webmentiontools 0.4.0: Tools for http://t.co/ZRk0kgfwWf. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/webmentiontools/0.4.0 (twitter.com/_/status/465263065055780864)
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aaronpk rascul: ok I think I'm ready! at least with the initial dump of the wiki!
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aaronpk it's pretty wild to see the whole wiki laid out as text files
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aaronparecki.com created /wiki/backup (+438) "add instructions on how to help back up the wiki" (view diff)
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rascul ok
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aaronpk i don't have it pushing changes there yet, but that is next up. at least there's a snapshot now
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rascul how big is it?
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rascul it's going now
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aaronpk 70mb
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rascul oh looks like it finished
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aaronpk sweet
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aaronpk i'll probably set up auto-updates later tonight
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aaronpk trying to figure out the best way to handle that
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aaronpk bye for now!
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