#indiewebcamp 2014-05-30

2014-05-30 UTC
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j12t I figured this might be a rathole. Not expecting people on this channel to have a lot of experience selling.
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j12t so forget that I said it
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j12t wrong place for this discussion
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tantek j12t perhaps you're looking for the h-product microformat? http://microformats.org/wiki/h-product
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j12t definitely not
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tantek if you're talking about selling
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j12t really, never mind
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GWG snarfed: I figured out the problem
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snarfed yeah?
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GWG snarfed: https://twitter.com/dshanske/status/471086141660491776
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@dshanske Semantic Comments and User Testing https://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/05/26/semantic-comments-user-testing/ https://twitter.com/dshanske/status/471086141660491776/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/471086141660491776)
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GWG This tweet shows the link
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GWG https://twitter.com/dshanske/status/472056645783396352
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@dshanske I want to enhance this site with some photo capabilities. For this...I need some photos. I'm going to go take some next week. ... (twitter.com/_/status/472056645783396352)
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GWG This tweet does not
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GWG Nextscript again
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GWG I'm going to Bridgy publish if you finally fixed the Facebook problem
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snarfed you mean the first tweet has a link to your site but the second doesn't?
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GWG Yup
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snarfed right, but the rel-syndication links are exactly what removes the need for those links in the tweets
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snarfed i've been debugging too. looks like bridgy actually isn't finding the favorite
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snarfed still not sure why
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GWG Hope I'm being helpful
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tantek hopes j12t gets independently wealthy with indiebox and then teaches the rest of us some business/selling skills. ;)
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snarfed GWG: very! thank you!
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aaronpk wonders if @datahiveconsulting would be a good one for j12t to get in touch with since they seem to be in this business
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Loqi aaronpk: pauloppenheim left you a message 1 hour, 28 minutes ago: ahh! i haven't been to AWE since it was ARE, good luck on the talk
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j12t aaronpk: other than in your brain, is there some place where somebody could find out about those guys, and guys like them?
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aaronpk pauloppenheim: oh! Did I meet you there in like 2011?
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j12t anyway, gtg
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aaronpk j12t: they have a website. I've only interacted with them on twitter
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pauloppenheim aaronpk: yeah, i liked your talk back then
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pauloppenheim we chatted, you gave me a geoloqi sticker, then i looked you up on twitter and saw we had half of the same friends
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aaronpk Haha awesome!
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aaronpk Well now I'm talking about this kind of stuff: http://aaronparecki.com/presentations/2014/05/29/1/awe-2014
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kylewm j12t: good luck with the reboot! i'm sure that was a tough decision to make
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snarfed omg. the twitter api is giving me a tweet with favorite_count = 0 and favourites_count = 1
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snarfed shoot me now
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kylewm wth
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GWG snarfed: You need a Brit to sort out the u out
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tantek reboot? what happened?
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snarfed maybe that one favorite is region locked
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GWG They region lock favorites?
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snarfed no no, it was a joke :P
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kylewm tantek: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/canceled-indie-box-one-campaign http://indiecomputing.com/c/crowdfunding-faq/
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aaronpk The sad thing is nobody would be surprised if that actually happened
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kylewm funny coincidence, talking web actions yesterday we decided that was a concrete reason to prefer "like" or "bookmark" to "favorite"
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snarfed aha funny
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tantek kylewm: that's a tough decision. man, sorry to hear that j12t, but brave, and hopefully we can figure more things out in this community to help you iterate.
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aaronpk j12t: kudos for calling that early and not letting it drag on
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snarfed hear hear!
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aaronpk Much better to reassess now than end up like so many failed kickstarter projects
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tantek totally agreed.
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aaronpk Even successfully funded kickstarter projects end up as miserable failures dragging on and suck the life out of the founders
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aaronpk I've seen it happen a couple times and it's really sad
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tantek exactly. and usually burns people's hopes for the space in general.
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KevinMarks the pathology is often the rewards taking over from the project itself
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tantek.com edited /Indie_Box (+208) "/* Articles */ crowdfunding canceled, see also FAQ" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: there are many pathologies / failure modes.
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tantek like feeding the press taking over from the project itself
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KevinMarks agreed, but I've seen that one happen a lot
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tantek or spending more time doing talks about the company/project than actually leading/building it.
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tantek is a bit self-conscious about that one in particular.
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tantek aaronpk, 404: http://marvelouslabs.com/pushup-counter
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tantek linked from: http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/05/26/203254/
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tantek linked from http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
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tantek linked from http://aaronparecki.com/presentations/2014/05/29/1/awe-2014
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tantek pops up from manual link check validation.
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tantek KevinMarks, aaronpk - is it worth stubbing a page on project failure modes to capture these?
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aaronpk oops... Will fix that
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@kevinmarks RT @Museyapp: @erinjo and @benwerd sharing about #indieweb & @known. #ownyourowndata @mattervc awesome #shareout https://twitter.com/Museyapp/status/472120161290297344/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/472183052206997504)
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tantek aaronpk - love that you used the same silos image!
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tantek nice slides aaronpk - looking forward to seeing the video!
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tantek.com edited /checkin (+15) "see also exercise" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /presentations (+264) "The Future of Quantified Self and Data Ownership" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /exercise (+176) "more tags, IndieWebCamp Sessions" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+149) "/* Notes */ restore irc archives link for day/night of, instructions in comments to keep it and just update the date for copies of this event" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-06-04-homebrew-website-club (+56) "/* Notes */ restore irc archives link for day/night of" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+0) "06-18 irc" (view diff)
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tantek it's very likely I'll be in NYC on 2014-06-04. Any other NYC folks here who would be interested in a late night HWC drinkup/meetup? like from 20:30-22:30 EDT (thus synchronized with the PDT meetups?)
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GWG tantek: If I wasn't going to be out of town....
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@dariusdunlap My login to my Blog… now IndieAuth-Powered! #indieweb https://twitter.com/dariusdunlap/status/472199995626909696/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/472199995626909696)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: looking to write my own micropub client. where should I start?
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tantek !tell dariusdunlap well done with IndieAuth login to your blog! Is that a plug-in to add to /WordPress ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: check out quill.p3k.io
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@veganstraightedge Talking thru @homesteadingio plans with @jlsuttles, I had an epiphany about #micropub in #indieweb land. Excited about its implications. (twitter.com/_/status/472203548596260865)
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j12t Thanks for all the nice words. Worst thing is to have a successful campaign that successfully lead into the wrong spot. Didn’t want to be there ...
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j12t I’m actually more confident now than going in, because now I know a lot more about the state of the market.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah well thanks :P I mean what parts need to be there... I suppose I need to have some sort of authentication do-dad..
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: try signing in, it should walk you through all the steps
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KartikPrabhu hmm oh i understand. just do all steps that Quill does...?
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aaronpk Quill is a client, and if you try to sign in, it will tell you all the things you need to do to support it
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aaronpk So if you look at the doc pages you should be able to implement the same things it does to make a client
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bret aaronpk oh rad!
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bret is that the full p3k posting infereace?\
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KartikPrabhu bret it only works for notes at the moment i thin
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bret cool
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bret really need to finish up my endpoint
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bret school--
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Loqi school has -1 karma
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KartikPrabhu i've been using it to post notes for week now :)
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KartikPrabhu in fact Quill helped get my micropub handling in shape
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: Quill feature request: optional publish date for future dated post :D
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KartikPrabhu of course if you are inclined :)
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KartikPrabhu shouldn't be greedy
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/05/29/3/micropub linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-29#t1401394015 (webmention)
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: noted :)
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KevinMarks2 http://www.googlism.com/what_is/i/indieweb/
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@kevinmarks "@DanielleMorrill: Someone want to fix my personal website a redesign it? I officially have no time" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/472267528308158464)
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@HelenLederer leave it with me RT @kevinmarks: "@DanielleMorrill: Someone want to fix my personal website redesign it?I officially have no time" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/472268800717762560)
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KevinMarks3 That is so twitter. (if you don't know these women, you should)
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@islayblog @Sean_Munger I'm using it in combination with @pfefferle's Indieweb plugin for @WordPress, works great. Pulls in likes and conversations (twitter.com/_/status/472326506052874240)
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GWG Morning
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GWG Good morning luxagraf
scor, alistair, pbeaulieu, Sebastien-L, krendil, bnvk, luxagraf, ttepasse, barnabywalters_, barnabywalters, bnvk1, chloeweil, eschnou, j12t, chrissaad and brianloveswords joined the channel
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bnvk1 barnabywalters: with "p-category" does each tag element need to be wrapped in it's own element with that?
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bnvk1 or is CSV multiple tags in one element ok?
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barnabywalters bnvk1: for example usage see footer in http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WKEe7/
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barnabywalters bnvk1: one element per tag
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barnabywalters if you can come up with a good use case + published examples for comma separated tags in the same element then document it
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bnvk1 gotcha
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bnvk1 I've never seen it anywhere
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bnvk1 was just thinking it is nice
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bnvk1 but if the MF parser wants the items separate, that is what I'll do :)
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barnabywalters typically tags are links, so they’re published in their own elements by default
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barnabywalters microformats just paves the cowpaths
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bnvk1 yah
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bnvk1 I'm using this for the "Tags" that Facebook applies to messages
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barnabywalters is this for Social Archiver?
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bnvk1 inbox, sent, seen, etc...
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barnabywalters ah, interesting
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bnvk1 so that state of message can be retained
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barnabywalters it’s debatable whether or not they’re actually tags, in the widest sense of tags being *user*-assigned keywords
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barnabywalters but p-category works just as well as anything else to store them
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bnvk1 cool
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bnvk1 yah, they're not user defined per se, but they are user relevant and one to many style data
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barnabywalters bnvk1: as someone exporting data I would want to have them there and have no problem with them not being user-assigned
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barnabywalters esp. as it’s in a context where user-assigned tags don’t exist
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bnvk1 sweet
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bnvk1 Oh, also if I'm using "u-uid" for content, is there any OTHER MF I can use for a unique user ID as well as the content ID?
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barnabywalters bnvk1: uid is just “the ID of this thing”, so if you want to give a user a uid, just put uid in h-card
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bnvk1 ah, ok
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barnabywalters URLs are generally preferable to non-resolvable IDs too
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barnabywalters if they exist for the platform
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barnabywalters i.e. facebook will have ID URLs for users, probably not for individual messages
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bnvk1 well, it has both
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bnvk1 wait, there are individual message IDs
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bnvk1 but not URL's to single messages
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bnvk1 but I'm hesitant to make the MF have a URL to the user profile, as Fbook changes it's URL query string sometimes
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barnabywalters bnvk1: if you’re worried the links might break, maybe put the string ID in u-uid and the potentially-breakable URL in u-url?
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bnvk1 that would work
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bnvk1 barnabywalters: so if I currently have <a class="p-author h-card">John Smythe</a> and I want to add the u-uid for user, is <a class="p-author h-card">John Smythe<span class="u-uid">21123234123</span></a> OK?
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bnvk1 or does the "John Smythe" need to be wrapped in something as well since I'm adding a child?
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barnabywalters try it out in http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2
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barnabywalters the “name” property will include the ID
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bnvk1 yep
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bnvk1 ick
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bnvk1 so "p-name" does the trick :)
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barnabywalters indeedy
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tantek KevinMarks: see also https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/472272215778406400
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Loqi [@benwerd] @daniellemorrill Would love to get you a site using @withknown
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Loqi see http://erinjo.is .. http://werd.io/2014/daniellemorrill-would-love-to-get-you-a-site-using-withknown (http://twtr.io/mrnCbWJYtL)
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tantek the "have no time" issue is a key one - indieweb software needs to be zero admin - it should "just work" and not require updates if you're ok with current functionality
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tantek is skeptical about the auto-update methodology too due to things quietly breaking.
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bnvk1 tantek: not require updates, like ever?
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tantek bnvk - like every static site generator for example
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tantek requires zero updates to your site for it to "just keep working"
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tantek ultimate sustainability
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bnvk1 like, you mean zero updates to the publishing software itself?
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tantek precisely
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tantek and thus the site
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tantek as an example - all my old blog posts from 2002-2008 still "just work" with "zero updates" even though I'm not using that "system" any more.
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bnvk1 I see, because they're static HTML pages
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tantek right, that's one solution to "zero updates"
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bnvk1 what are others?
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tantek unlike tons of sites I've linked to that are database backed and have died since
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bnvk1 yes, that is definitely annoying when that happens
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tantek all database backed sites require some maintenance = time = eventual death because everyone reaches the "officially have no time" point
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bnvk1 gotcha
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@osulop http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE @jorikemppi (twitter.com/_/status/472400291984580608)
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tantek bnvk - re: fb and user profile URLs - they have to support the simple profile URLs for ever with redirects
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bnvk1 wat?
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tantek your u-uid questions earlier
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bnvk1 yes, but they (being Facebook) has to support what exactly?
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bnvk1 I've seen them change the profile URL by ID change like 3 times in the past few years
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tantek but all the simple/old ones work
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bnvk1 ah, that's good to know
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bnvk1 I was also not wanting just the URL so as to not require custom parsing on top of the MF extraction
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tantek bnvk, in particular the https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= URLs
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tantek custom parsing?
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tantek URLs are URLs - you can treat them as string IDs
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tantek in fact it's even simpler than that
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tantek e.g. https://facebook.com/214611
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bnvk1 yes
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bnvk1 right, but to get the id value
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tantek why do you care about the silo specific ID value?
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bnvk1 many reasons
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bnvk1 to bind it to photos, other user metadata extracted from other API calls
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tantek to do that without URL parsing, you can use https://graph.facebook.com/214611
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bnvk1 yes, but that's a different URL + another API call
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bnvk1 additionally, notice there are no pictures in that data?
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tantek yeah, and sadly no URL either despite the fact that I set my URL/homepage to be *public*
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bnvk1 nope
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bnvk1 to get that metadata a user must explicitly grant a given app access
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bnvk1 fuck silos
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Loqi lolz
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tantek for a while it was in the public HTML view of a profiel
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bnvk1 yep
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bnvk1 word Loqi, sometimes you aight
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek even with rel=me :/
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barnabywalters the *really* stupid thing is that if you try hard enough at parsing the HTML on https://facebook.com/214611 you can extract profile URLs e.g. https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpa1/t1.0-1/c0.0.50.50/p50x50/1549485_10100891503381873_160031268_t.jpg
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tantek profile pics?
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barnabywalters yeah
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barnabywalters hrm, or maybe that’s because I’m logged in
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tantek and barnabywalters, technically that's scraping since they can change that markup at any point
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barnabywalters tantek: sure, but it makes the fact that it doesn’t show up publicly on graph.facebook.com silly because it *is* public
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bnvk1 yep
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barnabywalters switching locations
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bnvk1 me too
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bnvk1 bbiab
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@mapkyca Hey @npdoty @benwerd! A proposed update for my OpenPGP login spec: http://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2014/05/30/openpgp-login-spec-countering-replay-attacks/ I'll be interested in your thoughts! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/472407358795427840)
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@Johannes_Ernst Marcus Povey and PGP-based login http://upon2020.com/blog/?p=1962 #indieweb #lid #pgp #gpg (twitter.com/_/status/472422842588356608)
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tantek j12t - indeed! thought it sounded familiar ;)
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tantek I'll take it more seriously when it he has it working on his own website
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tantek PGP has long been too difficult / painful to bother with - even for developers
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j12t it will work just fine, I’ve been running LID since 2005
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tantek so it got some adoption but plateaued?
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j12t for marketing reasons, I basically folded it into OpenID
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j12t before that took its sharp right turn
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tantek "marketing reasons" <-- always a bad reason
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j12t before its time
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tantek feel free to stub this: http://indiewebcamp.com/LID especially since you have it running on your own website!!
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j12t actually on several
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@cdxtech The tiny box that lets you take your data back from Google http://www.wired.com/2014/05/out-in-the-open-indie-box/ #IndieWeb #IndieBox #FreedomBox (twitter.com/_/status/472426383701196802)
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upon2020.com created /LID (+848) "basic overview" (view diff)
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j12t BTW, the “private messages” stuff recently discussed is also eerily similar to what we had in LID for URL-to-URL-based encrypted, signed messaging
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tantek.com created /lid (+17) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /LID (+213) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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gRegor` Interesting article: https://medium.com/@joeld/the-next-web-must-have-coin-ccbe484fa5e7 Not sure I agree about extending the HTTP protocol, though.
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gRegor` But it makes some good points about publishing / easily accepting payments for content.
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gRegor` Also, hello again, indieweb.
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j12t Would that payment be voluntary (“donation”) or enforced (“first page free”)
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tantek gRegor`: original here: http://thelocalyarn.com/article/the-next-web-will-have-coins
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tantek (I was about to dismiss anyone talking about "the next web" not on their own website but the author did publish first on his own website)
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aaronpk the http spec has had a status code reserved for "payment required" forever
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gRegor` Yep. First thing I checked for was that he posted on his own site. I was pretty sure he had, since I've followed him for a while.
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tantek aaronpk - it was a half-baked idea rather than anything actually selfdogfooded
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aaronpk you know i'm noticing a lot of people POSSEing their articles to Medium
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aaronpk tantek: yeah it looked more like a placeholder to me
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tantek placeholders do not belong in specifications
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aaronpk like "we're gonna need to do something about this later" and "later" never arrived
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tantek we have learned this lesson
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snarfed fun point of trivia: 402 (that status code) was actually the initial project code name for http://www.google.com/insights/consumersurveys/
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tantek keep the spec smaller rather than more forward looking
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aaronpk "402 Payment Required: This code is reserved for future use."
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snarfed and probably many other projects
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tantek brainstorming belongs in a separate wiki page / section
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snarfed (brett slatkin's full time gig)
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jonnybarnes hey guys and gals
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tantek so here is my summary rejection of the article about "needing" coins:
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tantek people don't receive payment for replying to txt messages and answering cell phone calls, yet cell phones, individual cell #s are widely adopted
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KartikPrabhu is confused as to why money should be speced in HTTP or something
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tantek therefore, people don't need to receive payment for a similar popularity of indieweb peer-to-peer publishing/commenting/messaging
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gRegor` It really shouldn't, Kartik
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@steinbring Remember web rings? With IndieWeb becoming more of a thing, we should bring those back. The ultimate decentralization of content discovery. (twitter.com/_/status/472439868963180546)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I think the author is arguing more about money going to writers on the Web or something. Just like you would buy a book in real life
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jonnybarnes Whats a web ring?
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: you're back!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: my point is the author's assertion of "*the* *next*" is false
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KartikPrabhu oh as in the "next web"?
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tantek I provided a simple analogy to an existing ecosystem/adoption pattern that proves that payment to publishers is *not* necessary for widespread adoption
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tantek therefore demonstrating the author's assertion of *need* to be false
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KartikPrabhu agrees on that point :)
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tantek it's a "nice to have", not necessary for success (if success = wide adoption)
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tantek second dismissal: the author failed to do their homework with *existing* web marketplaces
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tantek Want to make money from your website? Package it up with a manifest and submit it to https://marketplace.firefox.com/
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KartikPrabhu related thing I just found out about is Gittip https://www.gittip.com/ have been seeing this at a few places
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kylewm aaronpk: the irc log had a hard time converting that medium link (thought @joeld was a twitter sn)
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tantek author doesn't mention Firefox Marketplace *at all*, but does mention *private* marketplaces
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aaronpk guys! I just pushed out a couple fixes for indieauth.com!
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gRegor` woo, aaronpk!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yay new logo
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gRegor` had not heard of Firefox marketplace before
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: gittip is really interesting, did you hear the interview on the Changelog?
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tantek https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Apps/Build/Manifest
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: no. I just found out about this a few days back. link?
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gRegor` @joeld is his twitter name, actually. I'm an internet acquaintance of his and have mentioned indieweb a few times. I'll suggest he check out the chat sometime.
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tantek no rel=manifest on http://thelocalyarn.com and no http://thelocalyarn.com/manifest.webapp either
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tantek anyone talking seriously about selling something on the open web, or creating protocols for doing so, should be *at least* attempting to do so with existing tech first
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tantek or providing critique of why existing tech does not work for them
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gRegor` Is Firefox Marketplace YAAS? (Yet Another App Store) :)
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tantek so that's my summary dismissal of this article. go do your homework before proposing additions to HTTP.
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I haven't listened yet... http://thechangelog.com/123/ I learned about gittip from an interview he did with them last year though. interesting guy, kind of an iconoclast
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tantek gRegor`: all based on open standards, so you can actually make your own app store at your own domain
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I am curious as to why some of these "marketplaces" are widely known but others aren't. Had never heard of FF marketplace before
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: @Shanley blasted him on twitter last week, interesting read
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tantek.com created /marketplace (+19) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I'm back! Sorta. I'm still in Bellingham, WA. I fly back tomorrow night.
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aaronpk indieauth updates: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/30/3/indieauth
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KartikPrabhu so Gittip is like a money-exchange silo
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barnabywalters tantek: as far as I’ve seen, the firefox marketplace and associated standards are designed for packaged apps. how would one use it/them for buying/subscribing to content?
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tantek your web site = your web app
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tantek should just setup a web manifest so people can install tantek.com for $1 and see what happens.
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aaronpk pretty sure that wouldn't be accepted by the mozilla app store gods tho, right?
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@gRegorLove @joeld I mentioned this on #indiewebcamp (Freenode IRC) & there was some interesting talk. I wasn't aware of https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Apps/Build/Manifest before (twitter.com/_/status/472442587031146496)
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tantek aaronpk, based on what?
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aaronpk oh wait i'm thinking of the ff extension marketplace
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barnabywalters tantek: that doesn’t really count unless there’s private content in the bought version which isn’t otherwise available on tantek.com
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@gRegorLove @joeld http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-30 starting at 10:52. You should drop by the chat. I think there's good overlap w/ your publishing interests. (twitter.com/_/status/472442924353859584)
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barnabywalters as that’s the goal people what to achieve
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aaronpk gRegor`: you can share permalinks to specific lines in irc by clicking the hash sign http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-30#t1401472349
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aaronpk and man that autolinking is borked
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aaronpk wonders how tantek's autolinking code handles that
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gRegor` Aye, but I wanted him to see the full conversation after w/o clicking
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aaronpk yeah, click that. it shows the whole page
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aaronpk just jumps and highlights that line
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gRegor` Hm.
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aaronpk just fyi for next time
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gRegor` How do I get that link? I click a timestamp and get a few lines
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aaronpk the hash sign
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gRegor` Ohh, duh. Haha
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gRegor` Thanks
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tantek.com edited /store (+444) "dfn, FF marketplace example and App Manifest link to Client App Store Examples for better discovery" (view diff)
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tantek gRegor`: check out and add to http://indiewebcamp.com/store
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tantek and perhaps see if you can get joeld to join us here in #indiewebcamp
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gRegor` I get tantek's overall point about payments, but I'm not sure I follow the SMS coronary. We do pay for the content, just not directly to the person providing the content.
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tantek.com edited /store (+2) "ag" (view diff)
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gRegor` s/coronary/corollary/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: I get tantek's overall point about payments, but I'm not sure I follow the SMS corollary. We do pay for the content, just not directly to the person providing the content.
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gRegor` Selected the wrong spellcheck word. :)
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tantek gRegor`: every time YOU write an SMS, YOU are the publisher. YOU are not getting paid for your publishing.
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gRegor` tantek: Already tweeted to joeld above ^ :)
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tantek saw :)
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tantek barnabywalters: advantage your personal "web app" could provide - local caching of say all your blog archives so people could read everything you wrote offline.
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barnabywalters tantek: can that not be done from a regular website anymore?
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tantek of course it can, but why not try charging for it (since it's extra work for you) and see what happens?
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aaronpk i should put the indiewebcamp wiki up
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tantek see now we're talking
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aaronpk download a copy of the wiki! only $2!
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tantek though aaronpk - then you'd have to answer the question of where the $ goes etc. open accounting and all that.
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aaronpk nah, it goes to me because... stuff
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tantek since you'd be making available a community resource freely contributed
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barnabywalters that’s easy — “sponsor future indiewebcamp events”
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aaronpk it's all public domain right? that means I can sell it!
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aaronpk :P
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tantek right, going towards domain name registrations, server hosting etc. - that's a *great* way to document it
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tantek 
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barnabywalters aaronpk: lol
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tantek aaronpk, it's not a question of can, it's a question of community health :)
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aaronpk but yes I do keep meaning to document all the costs I'm incurring for the servers and domain names :)
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tantek would easily pay $2 to install a copy of the indiewebcamp wiki if it went towards DNS/hosting fees.
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tantek it's not that different than the open source Colloquy iOS app costing $ to install.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/472442924353859584/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-30 (webmention)
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek but yes transparency sets a good example
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luxagraf tantek: certainly don't *need* payments for widespread adoption, but it would sure be a huge help I bet
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aaronpk hm maybe I'm just lacking examples of ways to make this transparent, which is why i haven't done it yet
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tantek luxagraf - I disagree - the time cost of dealing with coding for accounting may greatly dwarf any amount actually made.
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tantek not necessary = distraction
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luxagraf tantek: well, i was assuming if something were done at the protocol level, as per that article, it would be easy to implement otherwise yeah, no advantage over today
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tantek aaronpk - for each indiewebcamp, e.g. /2011 it can have an expenses page, e.g. /2011/expenses which documents all expenses paid by whom for what
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tantek that would be a good start
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: this is what I see on indieauth.com - http://imgur.com/qKcKkqj
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tantek luxagraf, wait, seriously?!?
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aaronpk oh look what I did http://indiewebcamp.com/expenses
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tantek "assuming if something were done at the protocol level, as per that article, it would be easy to implement" <--- almost never true
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: boo. how wide is your browser?
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luxagraf tantek: trying to find exception...
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tantek aaronpk - yeah I've noted that text overlap as well
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luxagraf tantek: but no, you're right. just my wishful thinking
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aaronpk bootstrap is supposed to make that all magic for me
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: im on a 13" MBP, is there an easy way of getting Fx to tell me its screen width?
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tantek luxagraf - based on experience with implementing protocols
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aaronpk ah it's only broken in firefox
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tantek aaronpk - bootstrap is long on promises, short on delivery
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: did you ever get TLSv1.2 sorted?
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tantek it was also at fault for screwing up indiewebify IIRC
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aaronpk this is an older bootstrap too
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: sadly, no.
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aaronpk well I'm happy to take suggestions on other similar css frameworks
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luxagraf but i did get everything up to level 4 https and pushed that out.
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rascul aaronpk i've not found one i like
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: sounds good
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tantek luxagraf - of course there are exceptions (hence *almost* never true), but that's not the point. preponderance of data (e.g. # of protocols) are *not* easy, not even close to, to implement
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tantek thus poor assumption
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I tend to just use a simple normaliser and work from there rather than trying to learn large frameworks and figure out how to fit my brain-pictures into their assumptions
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I don't really have brain-pictures, I just want to get it out on the page and not have it look like the default browser css
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tantek aaronpk, /expenses is a good start! but needs payer / payee columns
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luxagraf tantek: agreed. i think the whole argument is wrong anyway.
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tantek luxagraf - also, it fails the "scratch your own itch" test
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tantek i.e. want to solve payments on the web? great, put up your website into an appstore for pay to try it out and document the results.
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters aaronpk I'm stealing the term brain-pictures, thats fantastic :P
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/472442924353859584/472445981301043200 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-30 (webmention)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I’ve found that it generally only takes a hundred lines or so of CSS to bridge the gap between nasty browser defaults and looking-okay
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aaronpk barnabywalters: you should share those hundred lines :)
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: I imagine its something wrong with your config, could be that TLS1.2 is getting disabled somewhere, maybe in the main http block
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tantek anyone proposing stuff for web architecture but not actually experimenting with it on their own site (or at least showing concrete steps to experimenting with it - i.e. for "harder" problems) is usually dismissable as hand-waving.
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aaronparecki.com edited /expenses (+195) "add payer/payee" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/472442924353859584/472446232216891392 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-30 (webmention)
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gRegor` body { margin: 1em
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gRegor` font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif
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gRegor` } /* boom */
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: i had a great moment of hope yesterday when i moved all the https config stuff to the main config file, but unfortunately that didn't help.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I’m a little afraid of doing that, because I’ll look at different sites and say “hey, there are some similarities here, I just need to abstract this and this and this…” and then POOF, a new CSS framework is born
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aaronpk :)
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tantek has a simple.css that he starts with.
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: did you compile nginx yourself? cos the version in the Debian repos, is linked against openssl0.9.8
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tantek going offline for a bit. transit. bbiab.
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: theres a relavent xkcd for that
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barnabywalters !standards
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Loqi http://xkcd.com/927/
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: yup compiled myself, explicitly linked to 1.0.1e
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aaronpk wat how'd you do that
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luxagraf ha. nice Loqi
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barnabywalters aaronpk: you added the command ;)
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: is openssl self-compiled?
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barnabywalters in 51 seconds, if I remember correctly
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gRegor` !help
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aaronpk oh yeah hahahaha
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gRegor` Is there a list of commands?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: that would make things too easy
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jonnybarnes what is Loqi
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2012-08-22#t1345662167
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barnabywalters gRegor`: start making a list on /Loqi!
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Loqi is done
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gRegor` Haha, barnabywalters
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: no. which might be the problem. i tried to figure out a way to linke nginx to a self-complied version, but could not figure out how to do that
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gRegor` Loqi is a silo! ;)
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gRegor` Good call, barnabywalters
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: if you compile openssl yourself and leave everything to default, openssl stuff gets installed to /usr/local/ssl
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jonnybarnes then you can compile nginx with the flag --with-http_ssl_module --with_openssl=/usr/local/ssl
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jonnybarnes I documented some of this here: https://jonnybarnes.net/blog/2013/03/getting-spdy-support
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aaronpk wonders what the threshold is for when a domain is consndered a community expense
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jonnybarnes but thats from 2013 obv
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: okay, but then how do I make sure that when nginx connects to openssl it uses that and not /usr/bin/openssl
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: ah, right. hmm.
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jonnybarnes because it does :), that worke when I had v0.9.8 installed from the main repos which couldnt possible enable spdy
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barnabywalters aaronpk: threshold of what? cost? number of people in the community?
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aaronpk like when do i add it to /expenses
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jonnybarnes and my site was defo ising spdy so nginx must have been using the self-compiled openssl
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jonnybarnes atm my site is on a vps with a new enough version of openssl in the repos so I didnt need to self-compile openssl
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aaronpk indiewebcamp.com for sure, and probably indieweb.org too. but how about webmention.io? or micropub.net? then there's also sandeep's webmention.org but I don't even know if he'd want that
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gregorlove.com edited /Loqi (+280) "Added Commands and Queries section" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I’d say then the majority of the content on the domain is created or edited by the community
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: see, that's the thing. I'm on debian 7, openssl is at 1.0.1e anyway, which should work I think
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barnabywalters i.e. when it’s a /commons
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jonnybarnes im on debian 7 as well
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aaronparecki.com edited /expenses (+795) "add Linode expenses" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes and I defo have tls1.2 support
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jonnybarnes with self-compiled nginx
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aaronpk how about indieauth.com?
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aaronpk and ownyourgram.com?
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barnabywalters indiewebcamp.com is a commons, webmention.io is a solo project
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barnabywalters aaronpk: they’re solo projects rather than commons, so it’s up to the project maintainer to solicit donations
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barnabywalters at least, that makes the most sense to me
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aaronpk that seems reasonable
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gregorlove.com edited /Loqi (+127) "/* Commands and Queries */" (view diff)
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joeld_ Hey folks. I guess there are some doubts as to the approach I took in my article? Happy to learn.
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barnabywalters greetings joeld_! welcome to #indiewebcamp
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gRegor` Hey, joeld_. Welcome.
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: when you compiled against system openssl did you still use -with-openssl=
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barnabywalters tantek: joeld_ (author of the payment article) popped in
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: nope
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aaronpk gRegor`: could you do me a favor? create a template like http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:Attendee/Doc but for rows in the /expenses page?
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gRegor` joeld_: Missed your tweet. Glad you got IRC sorted. :) I usually use Chatzilla in Firefox.
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jonnybarnes just --with-htto_ssl_module
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aaronpk that attendee one is really well done
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jonnybarnes and the --with-http_spdy_module as well, but thats not strictly necessary
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joeld_ gRegor`: I'm on a second-class machine atm ;)
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gRegor` aaronpk: Sure, though it probably won't be until early next week.
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aaronpk ok cool
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gRegor` Traveling tomorrow and decompressing Sunday :)
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: then in the output of ./configure you shoud see the line Using system OpenSSL library in Configureation Summary which is near the end of the output
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gRegor` joeld_: Tantek can probably best reply to your post. He was away in transit for a bit, but might be back.
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tantek is mobile right now and mostly listening. :)
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: yeah I got that message, it said it was using system ssl. Here's my configure setup: http://pastebin.com/KxiLXByS
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: wondering if maybe there's something that conflicts in the 3rd-party tools I use.
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gregorlove.com edited /Loqi (-95) "/* Ideas */" (view diff)
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: esp naxsi
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tantek luxagraf, if you get it working, can you add what you figured out to the /https page, perhaps in a Troubleshooting section?
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luxagraf tantek: will do.
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tantek Sounds nontrivial to go from level 4 to 5
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jonnybarnes well what happens if you try and compile without the naxsi module, pro-temp anyway
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luxagraf tantek: actually, for most people it seems pretty trivial. I just got lucky it seems
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: I'm going to try that now.
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joeld_ tantek: so if I understand correctly, you feel the article is "hand-waiving" -- I guess I'm not sure what that means.
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tantek luxagraf: That makes your experience particularly valuable :)
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tantek Handwaving = talking rather than doing
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: I dont see why naxsi would stop tls1.2
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tantek See above about app manifest and existing open web app stores for payment etc
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jonnybarnes it doesnt really have anything todo with ssl
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joeld_ tantek: yes ok. I did read through what I could up there.
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tantek See also /store
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: true. i
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tantek Great! Try deploying an app manifest
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: but it does sandbox nginx to some extent I believe
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: a quick google of nginx naxsi tls isnt coming up with anything
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: just checking, do you have libssl-dev installed as well as openssl?
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joeld_ Firefox app store seems to me to be another centrally-organised thing bolted on top of the web.
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tantek Aside: googling for either open web App Store or open web marketplace both quickly shows the Firefox marketplace and app manifest resources
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joeld_ Also, no one uses it.
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gRegor` joeld_: tantek is referring to http://indiewebcamp.com/store, btw. just shorthand.
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tantek Already thousands of apps in ffos App Store as is obv from the link if you go there.
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gRegor` I didn't think FF Marketplace addresses exactly what you're talking about, joel.
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: yes.
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joeld_ I'm much more interested in knitting micropayments for resources into the web itself.
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tantek Build on open webstandards
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tantek Anyone can host an open web App Store
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gRegor` Does FF Marketplace support subscriptions? Or just one-time payments?
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aaronpk wtf wired y u break your old urls http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/11/32092
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gRegor` joeld_: What was the service you were using to distribute your ebook in progress? I forget.
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joeld_ tantek: so my question then is, are distributed little "app stores" somehow a better solution than including micropayment functionality in HTTP? Why do we need app stores?
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joeld_ tantek: you're right that I'm talking without doing, because there currently is no way to do what I'm actually talking about
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aaronpk archive.org URL http://web.archive.org/web/20121110211000/http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/11/32092 "Toward a Click-and-Pay Standard" from 1999
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tantek It's *a* solution. And deployed. If you're not willing to try that, why should anyone be interested in your hypothetical approaches?
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tantek Shipping wins
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tantek Hence, blog post = hand waving
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joeld_ tantek: so far I guess it feels as though I wrote an article on the minimum wage and you're berating me for not tipping buskers.
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luxagraf aaronpk: that's all wired does with old URLs
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joeld_ I'm not saying there's no way to do "busking" on the web a la app stores or gittip or Patreon or whatever various little parties have put together. I'm saying it would be better for it to be handled at the protocol level.
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: well, it's definitely one of the the 3rd part modules, because compiling stock gets me an A- (I need better Forward Secrecy support I guess)
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barnabywalters joeld_: how might that be achieved? what’s the minimum functionality which would have to be added to HTTP to achieve your goal?
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tantek I'm saying you're not even trying busking yourself.
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tantek App stores are a proven model
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tantek So why not try that first
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tantek Rather than ask for something hypothetical?
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tantek And frankly much more than busking
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: with TLS v1.2?
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: yes
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luxagraf https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=luxagraf.net
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jonnybarnes go through and recompile nginx adding each module one at a time then I suppose
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jonnybarnes :/
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: yup. hope its not pagespeed. that thing really helps
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joeld_ tantek: you seem to think I'm mainly interested in making money for myself
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joeld_ frankly no. My real concern is creating a web where the things I love can thrive without being big enough to attract ads or VCs.
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aaronpk joeld_: that is an excellent goal
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aaronpk and well summarized in your post "The real source of this problem is that the open software and protocols that power the internet lack a crucial piece of functionality: the ability to set prices or accept payments for things."
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luxagraf joeld_: that's awesome. I'd like to see it happen. but wouldn't good place to start be with your own site?
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aaronpk however I can think of at least a dozen ways I can set prices and accept payments for things
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joeld_ tantek: also, subcompact publishers tried app stores. It was a quagmire precisely because there are too many of them.
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joeld_ aaronpk: yes, that's the problem: there ARE a dozen ways.
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bnvk and none of them talk nicely with each
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joeld_ aaronpk: I'm saying, ideally, there would be one: HTTP.
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bnvk also, not to mention the totally screwy-ness of Int transactions
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tantek I'm saying without at least trying existing deployed & adopted open web payment systems, eg by packaging & selling your own website, you likely lack the experience to back a claim like "at the protocol level"
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bnvk for instance PayPal offers no ways to transfer money to Iceland
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joeld_ credit cards and transaction fees are a huge obstacle here too.
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joeld_ because they set a floor for prices that is way too high for most resources.
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tantek That's not about making money for yourself. It's about gaining experience to use to make credible proposals. Without experience, proposals are just hand waving.
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rascul waves his hand
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bnvk in fact, the only way to accept credit card donations in Iceland is to 1 of the 2 local paypment processes who majorly gouge on fees
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aaronpk the fact that it's an open market for payment processing has allowed companies like Stripe or Gumroad to come along and demonstrate a clean and new way of handling payments in the existing infrastructure. that's a good thing i think.
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joeld_ tantek: you know Siskel and Ebert never made a movie right? ;)
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gRegor` Bitcoin, guys! Bitcoin! </kidding>
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joeld_ tantek: but I have experimented on storefronts like Kindle Publishing for Blogs, leanpub, etc. if that's worth anything to you.
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tantek They never proposed how to make movies either.
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joeld_ OK, I think I understand the objection that I haven
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barnabywalters joeld_: I had not heard of any of those, and would be interested to read about your (presumably negative) experiences with them
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tantek Proprietary experience counts too obv. But proposing open web protocols without even discussing existing open web protocols shows lack of research at best.
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joeld_ ...'t rebuilt a new HTTP implementation on my own
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aaronpk popping up a level on this... frankly I think regardless of whether there ends up being payment extensions to http or whatever, there's still the more fundamental issue of fraud prevention and actually making money change hands that's not gonna be in http
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joeld_ tantek: if I were proposing anything above Transport on the OSI model I think that would be a valid concern.
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aaronpk the mechanics of moving money around is complicated enough that there are entire companies devoted to specific aspects of it
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joeld_ aaronpk: yes, definitely aware.
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aaronpk I guess I'm saying I don't see that addressed at all in the post. It seems to be kind of hand-waved at the end, with "As soon as you start attracting attention, change starts trickling in."
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bnvk what post?
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joeld_ aaronpk: Now yes, that's hand-waiving.
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joeld_ aaronpk: in a perfect world, I would have included a satoshi-style white paper on the payment system. tbh I don't have one.
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aaronpk it seems too early to talk about adding payments to http when there isn't even a way to send small payments
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joeld_ aaronpk: but in the article I'm trying to focus on the need for such a system and the implications of its being in place (or not), so even assuming I had a reference implementation it would be out of place here.
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aaronpk I definitely agree with the sentiment of the article
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joeld_ aaronpk: well there I think blockchain protocols are showing us [the/a] way forward
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bnvk aaronpk: what article is this?
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aaronpk http://thelocalyarn.com/article/the-next-web-will-have-coins
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joeld_ bnvk: https://medium.com/@joeld/the-next-web-must-have-coin-ccbe484fa5e7 was the one I put out today, based on an earlier version I had on my site
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aaronpk oh they're different?
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joeld_ aaronpk: there are moderate rearrangements though they are substantially the same
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joeld_ aaronpk: FRUSTRANTING that Medium doesn't allow footnotes.
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gRegor` heh, frustranting
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aaronpk ah did you use the paragraph comments for that?
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gRegor` frustranting++
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joeld_ (hmm I might keep frustranting)
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Loqi frustranting has 1 karma
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joeld_ aaronpk: I did. But I had to remove most of the footnote content of the original, or find a place for it in the body text
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aaronparecki.com edited /Medium (+103) "/* Criticism */ medium doesn't support footnotes" (view diff)
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joeld_ tantek: Experiments in busking, http://thelocalyarn.com/article/kindle-epub-publishing
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joeld_ Thanks all for the feedback. I'll definitely be back.
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aaronpk I do wonder what the minimim viable implementation of this might look like right now
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joeld_ (Especially when I get time to try implementing webmentions in Textpattern.)
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joeld_ aaronpk: well at a minimum we'd need a protocol spec, a modified browser and a modified apache or nginx or some such.
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aaronpk i mean even more minimal than that
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tantek joeld, I think another aspect was the focus on protocol first, rather than UX
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joeld_ tantek: UX is definitely a consideration that deserves fleshing out more.
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tantek I mean, perhaps I missed something, but I'd expect to see a sketch of a UI flow of how micropayments could work without jumping to the conclusion that changing http was necessary.
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tantek that conclusion may still be valid
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tantek I'm just wary of discussing protocols before UX
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tantek but that's a newish principle/value that folks here in indiewebcamp are trying to practice / propagate
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tantek that is, UX first, formats/protocols second
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joeld_ tantek: my thought when writing it (and mentioned in the medium version) is that app stores have pretty much solved the UX aspects of this, which is possible in large part because they have direct access to your wallet.
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/design#UX_Before_Protocols
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tantek I guess if app stores have solved the UX aspect, then that leads to the conclusion that one should at least *try* open web app stores before proposing anything
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kylewm aaronpk: if you are interested in distributing those hosting costs, you could put a link to https://www.gittip.com/aaronpk/ on /expenses
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aaronpk joeld_: if what i'm imagining is your vision for this is correct, then it sounds like you want something that is nothing like the existing app store experience
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tantek right
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tantek either app store ux is fine, then try existing open web app stores
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aaronpk in which case I would love to see that experience sketched out more
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joeld_ aaronpk: it is nothing like that experience in that it would be built right into all web browsers.
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tantek or app store ux is not fine, and come up with a new UI flow before proposing any protocols/formats
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aaronpk "built in" is not quite a sketch
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joeld_ aaronpk: each web browser would likely experiment with ways to streamline the UX.
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aaronpk the way I'd imagine it is something like an OAuth approval prompt, but that may not be how you're imagining it
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aaronpk either way that's the part that's more interesting to explore and experiment with
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joeld_ aaronpk: I'm actually not sure I see the point in prescribing UX approaches at this point. Probably the best browser would win.
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aaronpk not "prescribing", but testing out
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joeld_ aaronpk: well OAuth is not something your browser handles, so no, I'm not really thinking in those terms.
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aaronpk but your browser *could* handle it if it were built in to browsers
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joeld_ aaronpk: ok I see what you are saying. Technically anything could be browser-handled yes, with extensions, e.g...
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: have you worked out which module is messing things up yet?
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aaronpk with extensions until the browser builds it in eventually, yeah
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joeld_ aaronpk: I'm talking about HTTP-level stuff though. HTTP handles GET and POST requests. Those requests should be able to include pricing information and payment details.
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aaronpk the point is you can learn a lot about the best way to design a protocol by looking at what the end experience should look like
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aaronpk it's really tempting to jump into protocol design because it's so easy to do it when you don't need to worry about UX design
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bnvk aaronpk: have you written down your major gripes with Bitcoin / blockchains anywhere? All I remember you saying was the size of the public ledger being your biggest concern
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aaronpk bnvk: no I don't really want to get involved
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bnvk haha
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aaronpk i'm serious
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: None it would seem. When I started recompiling I also moved all my config files to focus on just the luxagraf rules. problem is in one of the other config files
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: basically i am wrong. :)
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: ahh, oh dear...
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bnvk aaronpk: it's mighty interesting to me how interested you are in digital money, yet how anti BTC you are
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aaronpk bnvk: and that sentence is probably the online documentation that mentions me and bitcoin in the same sentence (except now this one too dammit)
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aaronpk only, not online
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bnvk hahahah
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bnvk sorry :/
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gRegor` How about an HTTP header in response to a GET request that indicates "this page requires $X"
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gRegor` And then an extension / browser could handle responding to that?
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gRegor` ^ joeld_, tantek, arronpk
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aaronpk there are several members of the community with whom I have had very negative experiences, and nobody with whom I've had a positive experience in that context, so I just don't engage
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gRegor` A custom HTTP header is much easier to experiment with than extending HTTP.
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: I got it. it's a totally unrelated config file that references a self-signed cert (it's not a public site, also behind htpasswd) but
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aaronpk gRegor`: show me a UI sketch :)
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gRegor` This is joel's baby. I'm just suggesting simpler methods than reworking the pipes. ;)
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: weird
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aaronpk there are any number of ways to make the browser "handle" the request for payment. the most widely implemented one right now is a paywall in html :)
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: and it sets ssl_protocols SSLv2 SSLv3 TLSv1
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luxagraf which seems to override the other... which makes me think I don't really understand how nginx is loading config files...
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luxagraf jonnybarnes: anyway, I changed it and now it's working so problem solved. now i just need to fix Forward Secrecy and Session resumption
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jonnybarnes luxagraf: very weird indeed
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joeld_ gRegor`: I would be interested in that if it were a requisite step to getting HTTP extended.
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joeld_ gotta go folks! been good talking with you. I'll write something up about my failure to include a reference implementation in my article ;-)
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gRegor` Thanks for stopping by, joel!
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joeld_ cheers
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@rtaibah Springpad is shutting down. The Internet has become a nomad land, data is never stationary, pick up your stuff and go elsewhere #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/472471865571557376)
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aaronpk kylewm: thanks. added gittip profile to my home page
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luxagraf how do i leave a message again?
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aaronpk !tell luxagraf hi
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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luxagraf aaronpk: thanks
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Loqi luxagraf: aaronpk left you a message 27 seconds ago: hi
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luxagraf !tell jonnybarnes - thanks for all your help debugging my ssl issues. everything is working now.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret we actually have a gittip community: https://www.gittip.com/for/indiewebcamp/
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aaronpk bret: what does that do, other than show people in the list?
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bret errm, i dunno?
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luxagraf have a good weekend all
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aaronpk i assumed it would let you do something like give $x/week to the community and it would distribute it equally to everyone
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aaronpk but it appears to be a nice gallery instead
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bret it collects stat about people who identify with the community
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bret and pools that
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bret but other than that
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bret not sure
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kylewm it is possible to give money to a organization on gittip, and they choose among themselves the equitable distribution
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kylewm i'm not sure if that is the same thing as a community or not
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bret.io created /gittip (+143) "Created page with "{{stub}} Gittip is a payment system. There is an indiewebcamp community page that anyone can join: https://www.gittip.com/for/indiewebcamp/"" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu is caught up. Still not convinced about changing HTTP to do accounting
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bnvk is there a preferred MF for media contained within a h-entry?
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bret.io edited /gittip (+200) (view diff)
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aaronpk bnvk: like photos?
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aaronpk oh you probably mean arbitrary media
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@skinny @KirinDave I'm a cofounder of indiewebcamp, so yah, I join you in the resentment of Facebook's dominance. (twitter.com/_/status/472479572148375553)
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aaronparecki.com edited /gittip (+17) "add dfn markup" (view diff)
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bnvk aaronpk: yah, arbitrary
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bnvk well, I can have some control over it
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bnvk specifically for image attachments inside Facebook messages
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bnvk Is just "u-photo" good enough?
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aaronpk u-photo for photos would be good
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bnvk ok
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bnvk I think all Facebook allows is photos or their emoticons
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bnvk oh, no, that's just the chat window
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bnvk aaronpk: I'm sending you moar test messages, please ignore :)
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aaronpk ha ok
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bnvk so, clearly other media types might exist
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bnvk is there a generic MF for media or should I just use "p-content" ?
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aaronpk don't use content
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aaronpk that's the main note body
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aaronpk does it even need a microformats class name? or is a regular <a> tag enough?
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bnvk I could sure
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bnvk I just wanted something slightly semtantic
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk I don't have a good answer
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bnvk hehe, ok
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bnvk i'll just use p-media
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bnvk or p-file
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aaronpk PSA for anyone in portland: http://calagator.org/events/1250466356
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Loqi Upcoming.org Kickoff Party on Friday, May 30, 2:30pm at Green Dragon Bistro & Brew Pub
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bnvk nice
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aaronpk heading out there now!
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bnvk bye
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bnvk oh hey tantek
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bnvk tantek: was just asking aaron, is there a preferred MF for files inside of h-entry that are not pictures?
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tantek like attachments in general?
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bnvk yah
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bnvk and for pics would I use u-photo or p-photo?
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tantek there's some prior art for that, like music enclosures for podcasts, or file attachments to calendar events
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bnvk yah
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tantek u- vs p- is just a difference in how do you want it parsed
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tantek either way a photo property is a photo property
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bnvk tantek: what's the diff in the parsing?
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tantek u- properties look at URL-like attributes first, and perform relative to absolute conversion on them first
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tantek see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
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bnvk ah ok
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tantek in otherwords, u- properties are designed for easily re-using the URL you already have in your content for functional reasons, e.g. as a link or embedded image
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tantek without having to explicitly declare the property value separately as a string
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bnvk a lil fuzzy, but makes more sense
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tantek it's all from the principle of minimizing impact on existing markup/content - i.e. making it easy(ier) to add microformats
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bnvk cool
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tantek alright let's see if we can do a more specific job of answering your files attached to h-entry question…
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tantek checks logs
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tantek aside: "failure to include a reference implementation" - straw man. no one asked for a "reference implementation"
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tantek ooh just saw aaronpk is out at the Upcoming.org kickoff party. so jealous!
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tantek would love to attend remotely via the webrtc io thing
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benwerd really really hopes the new upcoming can be made compatible with rsvp webmentions
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tantek hopes the new upcoming lets us "claim" our profiles via rel=me
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@benwerd Backing up the #indieweb: some evidence http://werd.io/2014/backing-up-the-indieweb-some-evidence (twitter.com/_/status/472495543294246912)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/backing-up-the-indieweb-some-evidence linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: Backing up the #indieweb: some evidence http://werd.io/2014/backing-up-the-indieweb-some-evidence (twitter.com/_/status/472499489513537537)
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @benwerd: Backing up the #indieweb: some evidence http://werd.io/2014/backing-up-the-indieweb-some-evidence (twitter.com/_/status/472499889738231808)
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@bear @lukekarrys @brycebaril I would be curious if normal contact meta data could be sent, say if the person uses IndieAuth on your site (twitter.com/_/status/472509059971952640)
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@DIYauthor .@IndieAuthorLand has poll "50 Self-Published Books Worth Reading" when (surely) meant "Top 50" https://plus.google.com/+Indieauthorland/posts/GH1kbKMGD8A (twitter.com/_/status/472509333096652802)
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@DIYauthor .@IndieAuthorLand has poll "50 Self-Published Books Worth Reading" when they (surely) meant "Top 50" https://plus.google.com/+Indieauthorland/posts/GH1kbKMGD8A (twitter.com/_/status/472509527653621760)
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tantek lol indieauth match
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@DIYauthor .@IndieAuthorLand has poll "The 50 Self-Published Books Worth Reading" when they (surely) meant "The Top 50" https://plus.google.com/+Indieauthorland/posts/GH1kbKMGD8A (twitter.com/_/status/472509724177760256)
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@ChrisWellWriter .@IndieAuthorLand has poll "The 50 Self-Published Books Worth Reading" when they (surely) meant "The Top 50" https://plus.google.com/+Indieauthorland/posts/GH1kbKMGD8A (twitter.com/_/status/472509724412641280)
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tantek heh, DIYauthor had to tweet that 3 times huh
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@DIYauthor Oops - apparently they weren't confused. If you're not on this list, @IndieAuthorLand is saying your book is crap. https://plus.google.com/+Indieauthorland/posts/GH1kbKMGD8A (twitter.com/_/status/472511267840991233)
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tantek !spammer DIYauthor
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Loqi Got it! There are now 12 spammers blacklisted
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tantek for feeling like they had to post the same link 4 times
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KartikPrabhu they also don't seem to know the diff. between an ranking and a poll
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tantek bnvk - haven't forgotten about you - still researching...
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@ChrisWellWriter So I got into something of an altercation about #selfpub on Google+ - seriously, is it me? https://plus.google.com/+Indieauthorland/posts/GH1kbKMGD8A (twitter.com/_/status/472514473161678850)
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tantek LOL people debating *self*-publishing on *G+*
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+551) "Springpad shutting down 2014-06-25" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (-15) "one dfn is enough" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (-3) "-''" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+121) "yeah that xkcd needs to be embedded" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /livejournal (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /LiveJournal (+82) "embed xkcd making fun of LiveJournal for being peaceful" (view diff)
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tantek finishes reading XKCD to the present from that one about LiveJournal.
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tantek finds no more indiewebcamp related posts to embed.
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tantek bnvk - for attachments the closest prior art / brainstorming I found was http://microformats.org/wiki/hmedia#hAtom_and_hMedia and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Photos_and_other_attachments
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tantek the hMedia usage never did really take off - and is a bit format / media specific
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tantek since email calls files "attachments", e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_attachment
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tantek and iCalendar RFC 2445 5545 uses the name "Attachment" - I think we should go with "attachment" as a property name (despite iCalendar using "ATTACH" as their property name
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tantek also RFC 2183 Content-Disposition: attachment
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tantek per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME
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tantek and http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec19.html#sec19.5.1
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tantek so let's go with u-attachment for when you want to just provide a URL to an enclosed file
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tantek and p-attachment h-entry when you want to provide the attachment inline - how does that sound?
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tantek bnvk ^^^
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tantek bnvk if that sounds good to you, try publshing a page marked up as such, and we can then add it to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Properties in the experimental / proposed additions section alongside u-photo