#indiewebcamp 2014-06-06

2014-06-06 UTC
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/expenses (+742) "add [[2013]] expenses" (view diff)
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Loqi luxagraf: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 51 minutes ago: hey catching up on logs. barnaby wrote this for nominatum -> h-adr https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/8318401
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Loqi luxagraf: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 48 minutes ago: and I ported his code to python here https://github.com/kylewm/redwind/blob/master/redwind/locations.py
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luxagraf kylewm: thank you! that is exactly what I was looking for.
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kylewm luxagraf: great! all credit to barnabywalters
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aaronparecki.com edited /2013/expenses (+365) "add direct expenses from sponsors" (view diff)
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luxagraf kylewm: I never get a suburb. otherwise my port looks pretty much like yours
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kylewm luxagraf: I got an interesting location at the miami airport https://kylewm.com/checkin/2014/06/02/1
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luxagraf kylewm: nice. :) how are you putting in your geo coords?
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kylewm luxagraf: just javascript... navigator.geolocation.getCurrentPosition(function(position) {}) ... you can see my interface here https://kylewm.com/admin/new?type=checkin
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luxagraf kylewm: cool, i like that. i need to automate my location stuff. right now i just drop a pin on a map.
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GWG kylewm: You came to South Florida and didn't tell me?
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@davidmead Going to be putting all notes from #RustbeltRefresh conference tomorrow on my own domain: http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/06/05/677/ #silos #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/474716580149227520)
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benwerd finished local files.
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benwerd I think I need a beer.
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rascul beer is good
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benwerd rascul: A+ to that
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benwerd KevinMarks / KevinMarks2: thank you again for your schema hint. Invaluable, and now fully implemented.
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aaronpk benwerd: w00t congrats!
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benwerd aaronpk: thanks!
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aaronpk I would buy you a beer if we were within a couple miles of each other
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GWG aaronpk: You were the one talking about location data the other day, or am I misremembering?
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aaronpk A few of us were I think
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aaronpk Or you mean my GPS logs?
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GWG I'm just wondering about the why
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kylewm GWG: re
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kylewm south florida, are you referring to my checkin at the miami airport? (i was there monday for about 45 minutes :)
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GWG And you didn't say anyting?
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aaronpk Do you mean this? http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2014/06/01/1/long-term-archiving-of-gps-logs
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GWG aaronpk: That was what I was remembering
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GWG But..why hold so much?
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aaronpk Take a look at this for more background http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/03/06/1/everywhere-ive-been-gps-data-portraits
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GWG So, this was your business for a bit?
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rascul aaronpk that stuff is nifty
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GWG I just like this line, "Aaron Parecki is known for having tracked his location at 5 second intervals since 2008"
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KartikPrabhu GWG: iirc aaronpk was one of the founders of GeoLoqi
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GWG I am reading that
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KartikPrabhu makes sense he has high spatio-temporal resolution of his location data
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GWG I've only recently started thinking about this for myself.
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GWG Not the five second intervals.
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GWG But I just was working on location data for notes and trying to figure out...
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GWG Is it for yourself or for others?
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kylewm aaronpk: the logs to/from school on that blog post are adorable. and thank you for the update to ownyourgram for me, i was able to log in again!
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aaronpk haha thanks
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aaronpk Lots of parts of my site pull location data from this source, like creating new posts and things will use that to know where I am
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aaronpk Also my site shows the local time at whatever timezone I'm currently in
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GWG aaronpk: That feature I like.
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GWG I was thinking of doing that.
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GWG But I'm not a time zone hopper
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aaronpk Do it! There's a small timezone API project on my GitHub somewhere
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kylewm you could show whether you are asleep too!
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kylewm so people would know whether or not to call you
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aaronpk That would be neat
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aaronpk Unfortunately I don't get the sleep record until after it's done
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GWG I have so many things I'd like to do
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acegiak morning, all
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kylewm tzag, acegiak
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GWG acegiak: Morning, acegiak
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GWG I've been wanting to talk to you again
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acegiak GWG: what about?
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GWG acegiak: Things?
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GWG acegiak: I am trying to make a decision, and you were able to help me clarify my thinking beforehand.
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bdesham what's the syntax for attaching a microformat to a <meta> tag?
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KartikPrabhu bdesham: it is generally considered a bad idea to have invisible hidden data. but you cna just use class for the meta tag too
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KartikPrabhu microformats can be attached to any tag, as they only use classes
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bdesham hm, I didn't realize you could put @class in <meta>
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bdesham true story, though: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#global-attributes
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bdesham thanks
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KartikPrabhu you can put class and id on any tag
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GWG acegiak: I spent that time yesterday putting a location metabox into the taxonomy plugin and I'm still asking myself...does it belong there?
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bdesham yeah, I knew about id, but I guess I assumed that since class is usually used for styling it was only valid on tags within the <body>
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acegiak O
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acegiak I'm not sure it does? but then if it's a TAXONOMY plugin do any of hte meta boxes belong in there?
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GWG acegiak: It belongs there for one scenario
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GWG There is one type of post that requires it
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acegiak oh, a checkin?
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KartikPrabhu bdesham: I forget where but Jeremy keith/adaction once wrote "classes are HTML not CSS" :)
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acegiak then yeah we just hide it when it's not that type
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GWG acegiak: Exactly
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GWG acegiak: Well, people post notes with location data as well.
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bdesham yeah that makes sense :)
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GWG acegiak: That is why I think it sort of fits, but I deliberately was writing it without a mapping provider
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GWG So, it is basically just the boxes to store the data.
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GWG acegiak: The code is messed up right now anyay
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Loqi yay!
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GWG Loqi: Why yay?
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acegiak because "anyay"
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GWG Oh, typo
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GWG anyway
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acegiak so the problem with the location data is you don't want to pick a mapping provider so you're not sure how the boxes should be populated other than manually?
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GWG acegiak: They are populated. With geolocation data from the HTML5 geolocation API. But there isn't reverse geolocation
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acegiak yeah
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acegiak is there a way to do a web-actiony type thing?
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GWG I'm not sure if I should use something like Google API, or Nominatim, or what have you
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GWG What is a web actiony type thing?
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KartikPrabhu what is a web action
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/web_action
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KartikPrabhu boom!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I know what that is
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: beat me to the punch
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GWG I don't know what acegiak is thinking
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KartikPrabhu must read up on web actions as he doesn't fully know :P
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GWG http://codex.wordpress.org/Geodata
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GWG This is where I started
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acegiak I'm trying to think if we had a markup that said "browser: please use this person's favourite reverse geolocation "
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GWG Well, that isn't a web action.
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GWG That is more of a plugin setting
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acegiak yeah, perhaps the plugin needs settings
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GWG Well, that comes later.
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GWG I want to fix the boxes first.
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GWG Right now, the geolocation isn't pretty
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acegiak fair enough
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acegiak hmm
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GWG I also want to write some functions for use
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acegiak right now: use whatever mapping provider YOU like, and then we can make it customizable in a settings page later?
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GWG acegiak: This is my first foray into mapping, so I have none.
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acegiak use google as default then
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GWG acegiak: So I'm likely to go Nominatim
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GWG Because I'm not generating actual maps.
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GWG I just want human readable names for now
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GWG But, that isn't my first priority
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GWG Right now, the plugin isn't usable at all
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GWG It is proof of concept.
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acegiak yeha
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GWG acegiak: So, next is boring but essential stuff. Prepopulation of the taxonomy with standard types
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GWG functions that mirror common wordpress function...
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acegiak yeah I'm gonna get your code and then I'm gonna work on the showy hidy javascript
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GWG The problem with the second one is based on your use case
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acegiak really?
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acegiak you don't need to change which elements display for which types?
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acegiak like surely you don't need a response url box for a checkin?
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GWG acegiak: For now, it can just be ignored/left blank.
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GWG In a check-in, the URL could be a link to the location also.
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acegiak I see
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GWG I have boxes in my semantic comments plugin for Google Plus, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
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GWG I've never filled in the Instagram box
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GWG It isn't applicable.
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GWG The display information has an if empty clause
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@skry RT @benwerd: If you enjoyed @t's awesome talk at #pdf14, head here to learn more: http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/474739972373618688)
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GWG acegiak: For now, the issue is how to account for multiple selections, which some people want.
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acegiak so multiple kinds for a single post?
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acegiak or multireplies?
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GWG Multiple kinds for a single post
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GWG Like and Reply.
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GWG Which I don't get, but...
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acegiak you would do two posts?
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GWG Why would you do both?
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GWG I see a like as...I liked this, but I have nothing else to say.
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GWG I see a reply as actually having something to say.
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acegiak what if you like it and have something to say?
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acegiak you just say so in the comment?
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GWG Isn't that a reply?
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GWG Yes
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acegiak ah
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GWG I wouldn't mark it up as a like
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GWG But that's me
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acegiak interesting
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acegiak I know a lot of people do that
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acegiak but I also know people who dont?
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GWG I think it leads to confusion.
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acegiak GWG: how so?
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GWG Simplicity over complexity.
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acegiak hmm fair enough
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GWG Either way, I want to create a function called kind_class() based on the Wordpress body_class function
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GWG That will add the classes to anything...
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GWG The problem is the logic of it
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GWG Since the taxonomy, while I want to prepopulate, can be user-contributed...
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acegiak hmm, yeah
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GWG That's why I want to pre-populate. The pre-populated classes can be mapped, and any other classes can be based on the taxonomy slug
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acegiak yeah
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acegiak I'll pastebin how I'm generating markup based on metadata atm
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GWG I'd like to see that.
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KartikPrabhu !tell bear: do you know any good references on how to make a good requirements.txt where the requirements might be from a github repo to have the latest bleeding-edge stuff? trying to make by blog stuff open on github
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak it's a bit messy: http://pastebin.com/8g80DUtK
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20140606-032157.jpg "Uploaded via email by =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3pera_Im=F3veis?= <contato@operaimoveis.onmicrosoft.com>"
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20140606-032158.jpg "Uploaded via email by =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3pera_Im=F3veis?= <contato@operaimoveis.onmicrosoft.com>"
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GWG Is it p-like or u-like-of?
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acegiak when I wrote it there was debate about whether or not a like should include the -of
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acegiak so I've done both
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acegiak and I've used a p- prefix because it's a block with a u-url <a> tag inside it
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GWG acegiak: I'm still trying to figure out how this will integrate into themes/plugins/etc
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acegiak yeah, same. I'm not sure what the best solution is, because structure is an important part of the metadata for indieweb stuff
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GWG Well, iteration is probably the only way to figure it out
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acegiak at the moment I'm trying to fix my broken tumblr posseing
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GWG I am going home after visiting family for a few days.
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GWG Need to do some things before returning to work.
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@felipelavinz i would really like to see a blog search feature in @duckduckgo ... could be a nice boost for the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/474766311181258753)
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@benwerd Fully booked for Indie Web Camp in Portland at the end of the month. You should come too: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (twitter.com/_/status/474780826186424322)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/fully-booked-for-indie-web-camp-in-portland-at-the linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+1) "/* West */ updating numbers for West" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/474780826186424322/14099692 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/474780826186424322/4450441 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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adaburrows.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+301) "/* West */" (view diff)
iboxifoo, paulcp, KevinMarks2, netweb, KevinMarks, b0bg0d____, gavinc, piney0, XgF, acegiak, markmhendrickson, voxpelli, dietrich, edrex, bigbluehat, hadleybeeman, Jeena, walkah, bret, hidgw, binbasti, Garbee, jacus, etymancer, TimAbraldes and ozatomic joined the channel
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@t #PDF14: Thanks for all the kind words about the #IndieWeb talk. Appreciated. I'll @-reply questions etc. tomorrow. (ttk.me t4WS2) (twitter.com/_/status/474784684405043200)
sparverius, iboxifoo, paulcp, KevinMarks2, netweb, KevinMarks, b0bg0d____, gavinc, ozatomic, TimAbraldes, etymancer, jacus, Garbee, binbasti, hidgw, bret, walkah, Jeena, hadleybeeman, bigbluehat, edrex, dietrich, voxpelli, piney0, XgF, acegiak, markmhendrickson, caseorganic and dybskiy joined the channel
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@aaronpk @benwerd Awesome, can't wait to see you in Portland (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/06/05/2/indiewebcamp) (twitter.com/_/status/474788041395953664)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/474780826186424322/474788041395953664 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/474780826186424322/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/474780826186424322/15071058 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/facebook/36802236/10100822699211349/1640255862 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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aaronpk snarfed: got a weird one for ya https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/181
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snarfed aaronpk: looking!
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snarfed aaronpk: i'm guessing it's https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/171
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aaronpk hmm, I did add the syndication link a minute after posting the original
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aaronpk so if bridgy scanned the original and didn't find the syndication link it wouldn't have checked again later?
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aaronpk (I added the twitter syndication link first)
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snarfed right now, unfortunately no
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snarfed that's basically (imho) a bug. that issue tracks fixing it
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aaronpk k that explains it
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snarfed sorry. :/ kylewm is travelling right now but i think he's going to work on it when he's back
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aaronpk I wonder if sending a webmention to bridgy could be a way to handle this? that way I could send an updated webmention to bridgy when I change the post
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aaronpk although that means more work for me, so if you can fix it without me doing anything then that's probably better :)
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snarfed sure! that'd be an ok workaround. i think there are similar workarounds mentioned in the issue
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snarfed right. i'd rather recheck automatically, but i'm not yet sure how is best. we'll see
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aaronpk cool
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snarfed sorry for the trouble. feel free to cc yourself on the bug if you want to track it
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aaronpk I closed the other one as a duplicate and referenced #171
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aaronpk all good!
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snarfed thanks!
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Loqi cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 8 hours, 23 minutes ago: if you're serious about wanting to know how to run your own auth server, check out this page: http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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cweiske when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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cweiske !tell aaronpk: when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@mlleroulleau How we're on the verge of an amazing new open #web #indieweb - http://werd.io/2014/how-were-on-the-verge-of-an-amazing-new-open (twitter.com/_/status/474820537630621696)
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Loqi [mention] https://petermolnar.eu/blog/after-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Jeena We need a way to show that a website is webmentions enabled, I never know if a comment will have the potential to be seen by the author of the blog or not at all.
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cweiske ? there will not be a webmention endpoint if it does not support webmentions
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petermolnar should I make 88x31 pixel banner? :D
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petermolnar the request has a point though
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barnabywalters Jeena: is it pure coincidence that https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/33 was raised a minute ago?
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petermolnar we're in a process that hopefully end with a lot of webmention-enabled site/service, but most of us still keep around the regular comment sections as well
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Jeena No, I assume he reads my notes
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tobiastom he does.
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@CharlesPulliam I've got a brid.gy question, @schnarfed. I'd like to enable webmentions for a secondary tumblr blog rather than a primary. Suggestions? (twitter.com/_/status/474876465498947586)
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tobiastom http://golangprojects.com/golang-go-job-hq-Senior-SW-Backend/Devops-Engineer-Cupertino-Apple.html
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tobiastom oh, sorry. this was the wrong channel.
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barnabywalters tobiastom: ooooh — hype intensifies!
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tobiastom My intend was not to hype that think, just to link it, but here’s just no delete button :)
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tobiastom thing.
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tobiastom barnabywalters: did you just put that together or is that a real thing?
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barnabywalters tobiastom: the webmention.io logo? nope, that’s aaronpk’s thing
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barnabywalters should have attributed better, I did say it was webmention.io’s logo
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tobiastom hm. ah, ok. why is it no where mentioned?
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barnabywalters attributed now https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/33#issuecomment-45328096
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tobiastom thanks!
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tobiastom Shouldn’t it also be mentioned somewhere inside the readme?
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barnabywalters tobiastom: probably — maybe https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/IMPLEMENTATIONS.md would be a good place
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barnabywalters it is of course mentioned on the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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barnabywalters and http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention.io
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@heathbrown RT @t: #PDF14: Thanks for all the kind words about the #IndieWeb talk. Appreciated. I'll @-reply questions etc. tomorrow. (ttk.me t4WS2) (twitter.com/_/status/474885766565605376)
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petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress (+679) "/* Brainstorming */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+91) "/* Brainstorming */ added link to press-this plugin" (view diff)
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: nice, chris coyier just tweeted your svg article
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bnvk As per http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models I think it would neat to have a "Donate to the IndieWeb" ability
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bnvk perhaps a mix of Gittip, PayPal, BTC, etc…
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bnvk and then each month a rotating project could get the pot… or something along those lines
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bnvk curious about others thoughts
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petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress (+2095) "/* People using WordPress */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /projects () "(-2214) user list migrated to main WordPress article ( I've merged the two sections as most of the link were overlap )" (view diff)
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tantek bnvk, I'd say any donations should first go towards covering /expenses
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tantek then towards sponsoring the next IndieWebCamp
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bnvk tantek: for the server and domains and such?
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tantek right
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bnvk totally agree
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barnabywalters bnvk: http://indiewebcamp.com/expenses
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bnvk nice
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tantek then if we somehow we start quickly covering sponsorships for the next (or next couple of?) IndieWebCamp(s), I like the idea of pooling donations towards a rotating project of the month or something that gets highlighted
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acegiak I prefer those ideas to funding individual projects
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tantek however, we should immediately document any project-specific donation links on each project's wiki page
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tantek that way if someone finds IndieWebCamp and wants to donate to a specific project they can directly do so - no middle-man
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tantek acegiak - I tend to agree. Disintermediation and all :)
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acegiak is there a good way to accept donations without paypal yelling at me again?
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bnvk tantek: that seems quite good
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singpolyma-bb10 acegiak: bitcoin/ripple? ;)
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acegiak tantek: I just find that money needs to be kept as simple as possible or else it makes a mess of everything
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tantek heck we can start a /donate page for donating to IndieWebCamp with perhaps some of the above as outline / discussion
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tantek acegiak 100% agreed
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cweiske tantek, when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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tantek which is why we have yet to charge anyone for attending an indiewebcamp
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bnvk tantek: I think we should
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bnvk I think to not accept crypto currencies for donations would be foolish, despite people in this community not liking those communities
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acegiak cweiske: what? they might not have a twitter followers list? that's kind of how indieauth works?
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tantek cweiske - via rel=me bidirectional discovery of their twitter profile, and then it's up to you to go from there
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tantek using whatever library or Twitter snowflake API you want to
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tantek all IndieAuth does is confirm that the user is represented by that domain
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tantek that's it
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tantek you don't get any extra permissions etc. about any silo-auth
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cweiske on http://indiewebcamp.com/Why_web_sign-in#Why_not_consume_OpenID you (or someone else) gave Simon Willison's comment as example for indieauth and against openid
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bnvk also, patching in a easy way to accept donations was a big part of my idea for the Indie App Store… which would be more elegant / better separation for the project type donations
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cweiske simon wanted to have access to the user's twitter followers, which he did not get via openid
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acegiak tantek++ is best at explaining things
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Loqi tantek has 42 karma
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cweiske he does not get it via indieauth, too
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tantek cweiske - he does - there are just more steps
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tantek cweiske - also, excellent Q and we should add that to the IndieAuth FAQ
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cweiske you can get that data via openid, too
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cweiske openid data may contain the user's home page, so you can fetch his twitter page, too
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tantek cweiske does anyone actually do so today?
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tantek so "may contain" is the problem
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tantek with indieauth / web sign-in, it is a stronger assertion
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tantek bnvk - re: easy way to accept donations, rather than add more infrastructure (store) why not just add donation hyperlinks to project pages to start with?
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tantek easy and simple first, more infrastructure later
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cweiske my home page does not contain a twitter profile link, although I am registered at twitter
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barnabywalters bnvk: e.g. add donate link/bitcoin address to http://indiewebcamp.com/Mailpile
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bnvk tantek: yes, links on a project pages is great low hanging fruit
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tantek if your home page does not contain a Twitter profile link, then you're likely indicating it's not a big part of your identity, hence grabbing friends/followers from there is not necessarily a good idea
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bnvk tantek: app store is just my bigger picture starry eyed (how to make this really sustainable on a large scale) pipe dream :D
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tantek it's better to follow such hints from users, than try to do things programmatically at all costs
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tantek bnvk, really sustainable is almost always a result of small incremental real world steps, continuously
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tantek perhaps towards a bigger starry eyed picture, but never let the bigger picture stop you from making incremental progress today
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tantek "bigger starry eyed picture" also sounds like potential rationalization for architecture astronomy
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bnvk yes, sensei, I will think more humbly next time ;)
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tantek or feature bloat etc.
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tantek not necessarily more humbly, just more pragmatically impatiently ;)
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bnvk THE PEDANTRY!!!!
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tantek all about aligning incentives :)
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cweiske it's still not a good example why not to use openid - you can achieve the same with the openid login, and have to to extra steps with both indieauth and openid to access the twitter follower list
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tantek and positive framing (do something *now*!) rather than limiting (humble)
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acegiak "the zen of indieweb"
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tantek though humility is a good general thing to keep in mind :)
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bnvk haha
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cweiske the following quote speaks against indieauth, because indieauth also supports multiple providers.
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cweiske not only against openid
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tantek cweiske - "can achieve the same with the openid login" - but has anyone ever in the nearly 8 years of Twitter + OpenID being around?
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tantek cweiske - nope, OpenID has had a longer chance to show these things are doable possible deployed
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cweiske did anyone do with indieauth?
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tantek and by failing to have *even one real world example* of what you're talking about, over a MUCH longer time period = evidence that either no one cares, or it's too hard with OpenID
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tantek hence the "can achieve" holds little water
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tantek no one has achieved it - for 8 years
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tantek so, therefore, hypothetical
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Mailpile (+2) "link" (view diff)
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bnvk aaronpk: did you get iwc.org it's own Linode?
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acegiak I really don't see why you would arbitrarily pick twitter as the place to go looking for a friends list?
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cweiske acegiak, I talk about that one quote on the why_web_sign-in page
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cweiske tantek, also hypothetical for indieauth
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brennannovak.com edited /expenses (+209) "/* Regular Expenses */" (view diff)
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brennannovak.com edited /expenses (+0) "/* Regular Expenses */" (view diff)
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acegiak cweiske: so the debate is whether or not the quote should go?
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barnabywalters cweiske: IMO the criticism Simon gives is valid, but the assertion above that it’s a “good reason to use IndieAuth and Twitter as a provider” has not yet been verified in the wild
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barnabywalters other than the fact that indieauth appears more likely than openid to provide the consumer app with a homepage from which twitter identity can be determined
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barnabywalters so feel free to clarify or remove the assertion
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cweiske I won't. I'm the notorious openid-preferer in this circle, so I'm biased
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tantek the history of that quote is that the first relmeauth implementations all implemented Twitter OAuth (only) as the rel-me OAuth step
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tantek so it *was* technically possible to use the Twitter OAuth token that you got as part of doing relmeauth/websignin to do more things, e.g. to posse to the user's Twitter
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tantek and the relmeauth.php library provides this capability - with the Twitter OAuth token
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tantek so that's actually implemented, not hypothetical
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tantek and I deployed it with a UI on tantek.com/relmeauth/
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tantek anyone could web sign-in with their own domain, and it would only use rel-me to Twitter to auth you in as your domain, but then hold onto the token so you could use it to Tweet
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tantek which is more than you could ever do with OpenID, or anyone ever did do
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Why_web_sign-in (+2) "/* Why not consume OpenID */ replaced “IndieAuth” with “web sign in” as IndieAuth doesn’t provide Twitter tokens whereas other web sign in implementations do" (view diff)
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tantek using that same Twitter OAuth token to then do a friend list Twitter API call, rather than just a Tweet API call is a trivial change to existing code
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tantek unlike with OpenID, there is no such even implementation, let alone deployment
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tantek that's why they're different
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tantek bbiab
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tantek good clarification barnabywalters
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tantek and good critical analysis cweiske
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tantek appreciated on both fronts
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acegiak !tell GWG pull request for you: https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-taxonomy/pull/1
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak man, I promised myself I'd write that and then go to bed and let goat simulator download overnight
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acegiak but now it's midnight and there's only 20 minutes left on the download...
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barnabywalters acegiak: obv. you should spend the 20 minutes playing kerbal space program
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@MediaFunders @SlaughterAM @VinceDaily So many interesting talks at #PDF14 yesterday, especially the case for #indieweb by @t (twitter.com/_/status/474921142235328513)
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acegiak barnabywalters: games I dont have >.<
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acegiak minecraft will work though
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acegiak wait, no, that will slow the download
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acegiak I'm gonna retire to bed with the laptop an dtry and think of ways to make the markup for this metadata work with wordpress themes
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acegiak which is a problem I wouldn't have if I could just accept "put the markup in your post content field"
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bdesham I feel like I should be able to do something like <meta name="author" class="p-name" content="John Smith"/>
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bdesham but neither of the microformats2 parsers I tried supported this. is that just because people really hate invisible data?
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cweiske I don't hate them
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acegiak bdesham: I don't think invisible data is a thing you should need? but I don't HATE it?
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bdesham me either! I understand the objection but if the only "natural" occurence of a piece of content on the page is within the <title> element...
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acegiak oh that's a weird but sensible use-case
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bdesham maybe "hate" is too strong :) I just got the impression that that kind of thing is discouraged
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acegiak the intention is towards simplicity
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acegiak you really don't have a byline or anything on the page content?
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barnabywalters bdesham: the <title> element can be a microformats property
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barnabywalters <html class=“h-entry”><title class=“p-name”>Name of the article
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barnabywalters bdesham: also, having a string for the author is not typically very useful — most people publish a minimal h-card with at least name and url, if not photo as well.
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cweiske all my existing pages have a meta autor element, while nearly none has an explicit author div
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barnabywalters if you don’t want to show author information you can have a visible or hidden link to the author’s URL with rel=authro
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barnabywalters s/authro/author
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: if you don’t want to show author information you can have a visible or hidden link to the author’s URL with rel=author
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes does this, e.g. https://jonnybarnes.net/note/71 and http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjonnybarnes.net%2Fnote%2F71
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bdesham barnabywalters: I've been using <link rel="author" href="...my url..."/> <meta name="author" content="...my name..."/>
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bdesham although I can't remember now how that duality came about
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barnabywalters bdesham: what services consume meta name=author?
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cweiske <meta name="author" content="Christian Weiske" /><link rel="author" href="/"/>
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cweiske bdesham, why duality?
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bdesham anyway, I'm trying to mark up my name for an hCard and the only places my name occurs on the page are within templates
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cweiske it's two data points
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cweiske your name and your url
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barnabywalters cweiske: what services consume your meta name=author markup?
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bdesham so my choices are either to put class="p-name" somewhere in a template, and have an "orphaned" property on all the other pages on my site
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bdesham or else duplicate a template on this one page, requiring me to make any template changes in two places
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cweiske I don't know which services my meta tag consume. it's the standard meta tag for authorship since html 2.x
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petermolnar link rel=author and link rel=publisher is respected by Google in theory but only if it points to a google+ profile
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petermolnar I don't know if it would collide with meta autohor
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petermolnar s/autohor/author
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: I don't know if it would collide with meta author
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bdesham cweiske: yeah, it just strikes me as odd (looking at it now) that one is a <meta> and one is a <link>, with the same attribute ("author") and yet different semantics
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cweiske it's different tags, so different semantics are ok
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bdesham I suppose so... it seems arbitrary, though, which is which
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cweiske <link> should contain an url, shouldn't it?
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bdesham if you can't remember whether <link> goes with URL and <meta> with name, or vice versa, then that's a bad sign
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bdesham ...of course. didn't consider that at all
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bdesham haha
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barnabywalters bdesham: http://developers.whatwg.org/semantics.html#meta-author is quite clear that the meta value should be a name, and link href should always be a URL, so there’s no overlap
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bdesham barnabywalters: thanks
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bdesham barnabywalters: the problem with putting a class on the <title> is that my title is something like "About Me - Benjamin Esham", and of course you can't put a <span> in there
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barnabywalters bdesham: yes, that is a weird case. I wonder what the reason for the inconsistency is
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tantek checks the logs
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barnabywalters bdesham: do you have a URL for the page you’re talking about?
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aaronpk good morning!
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Loqi aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 7 hours, 12 minutes ago: when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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barnabywalters morning aaronpk
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aaronpk looks like tantek already answered that?
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cweiske that has been solved aaronpk
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bdesham barnabywalters: well, I'm talking about http://esham.io/about, although atm there isn't any microformats stuff going on there yet
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barnabywalters bdesham: and the challenge is where to put the “name” property?
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barnabywalters on body > header > h1
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bdesham yeah. right now my name is included on the page in three places, but all of those instances come from templates
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bnvk does Bridgy verfy is there is rel="syndication" before sending a webmention back to my site?
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bdesham so I could put class="p-name" on that <h1>, and that would work fine for the "about me" page, but it would be meaningless on all the other pages on my site
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bdesham or else I'd forego using the template for the "about me" page, leading to duplication
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bdesham (these are all minor problems, of course, but they offend my nerd sensibilities)
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aaronpk bnvk: yes indiewebcamp.com and such has its own server now. I was having too many problems with my current linode and thought it'd be good to isolate those
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snarfed bnvk: verify, no, but it does support them as an alternative to original post links in the possed post
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aaronparecki.com edited /expenses (+11) "force width of date column" (view diff)
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barnabywalters does your templating system not let you conditionally add markup depending on what page you’re rendering?
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snarfed bnvk: details at https://www.brid.gy/about#public
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barnabywalters e.g. add some “is_profile_page” variable into the context which adds class=p-name to the h1
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bnvk snarfed: cool
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tantek is feeling tempted to implement Twitter-aware reposts (i.e. with native retweets) and is wondeing how hard it would be, from format, to code discovery to calling Twitter API to retweet
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bdesham barnabywalters: it might, I'm not sure. it seems like the template shouldn't care about which page it's rendering though, since these "templates" are actually more like "include the entire contents of this file"
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aaronpk tantek: you mean you want to repost twitter things from your site, then do a native RT?
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bdesham that might be the best way to go though
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barnabywalters bdesham: another, slightly less clean approach would be to cheat a little and wrap the “Me” in “About Me” with an <abbr title=“Benjamin Esham”> or <data value=“Benjamin Esham”>
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petermolnar twitter retweet:
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petermolnar https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=[original tweet id]
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petermolnar this in theory calls a native retweet
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tantek aaronpk yes!
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bdesham barnabywalters: heh, sneaky :)
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aaronpk i like petermolnar's idea! goes along with your current implementation
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tantek petermolnar - it does, and I've implemented that as a webaction fallback on all my notes.
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barnabywalters tantek: whenever I’ve considered it, the presentation has always been the biggest hurdle (no surprises there). limiting your reposts to third-party content only, with no added comments, should simplify things
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barnabywalters and keep them consistent with twitter
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tantek but what I'm talking about is having my *server* do the POSSE retweet semi-automatically, just like my server does the POSSE tweet semi-automatically for all existing notes.
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petermolnar (you mentioned the API, I thought you might not be aware of this, foolish me)
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tantek barnabywalters: right, I'm specifically talking about *this* scenario: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_of_Tweets
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barnabywalters bdesham: because then it’s still slightly hidden data, but the data is in the same place as the rest of the content rather than being in some other template completely
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barnabywalters making lack of maintenance less likely
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aaronpk has been thinking about reposts lately too
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tantek rather than the slightly harder next scenario: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_to_Twitter
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bdesham barnabywalters: yeah. I kind of like this idea, thanks!
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tantek It's one of the four "tweet actions" to do on your own site instead of Twitter
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tantek tweet, reply, retweet, favorite
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tantek right now I only do: tweet & reply on my site, and POSSE those intelligently (i.e. with threading) natively to Twitter
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acegiak one of the things I want to do with whisperfollow work out if a post was possed to twitter and then when it then replies/reposts automatically
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acegiak does that action with it's posse'd tweet
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aaronpk interesting, I purposely left off my photo on my notes timeline, but if I start publishing RTs there I'm going to at least need the photo of the original poster
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acegiak like I'm currently doing with tumblr
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barnabywalters aaronpk: me too
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snarfed tantek, aaronpk: as always, i have a bridge to sell you. :P https://www.brid.gy/about#like
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acegiak except actually, I'm only checking if the post is a native tumblr post >.<
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snarfed only needs u-repost-of markup on your site and a manual or automatic webmention
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acegiak I need to A) mark up where I'm posseing to and then B) look for that markup on other's sites
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tantek snarfed - since I already have infrastructure/code to do direct POSSE posts to Twitter, I'm hoping it's not too difficult for me to add doing direct POSSE retweets to Twitter.
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tantek and without inserting another moving piece in the middle
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aaronpk snarfed: awesome, next step would be searching for a rel-syndication link on an indieweb post, that'd save me a step!
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snarfed tantek: yeah, good point. when you already have API code working, adding another call makes sense
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tantek got to run for a bit, but I'll leave you with this question: has anyone implemented http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_of_Tweets and if so could you provide permalinks to your indie repost of a tweet, and the evidence of doing so on Twitter automatically as well (rather than POSSE posting/copying the other person's tweet).
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bnvk Dear Facebook, Goodbye http://bnvk.me/Oes published, POSSE'd, and my escape has begun :)
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snarfed aaronpk: true! could have sworn i had a feature request issue for that, but maybe not
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snarfed !tell tantek yup, many of us have (indie retweeted), e.g. https://snarfed.org/2014-04-21_twitter-t-going-to-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed i think kylewm has too
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acegiak does anyone have a php micropub endpoint implementation that I can hack into wordpress?
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barnabywalters acegiak: this may be of interest: https://github.com/taproot/authentication
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aaronpk acegiak: mine is here: https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-micropub
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-micropub/blob/master/src/p3k/Micropub.php
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snarfed.org edited /Twitter (+91) "/* POSSE Reposts of Tweets */" (view diff)
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acegiak thanks guys
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snarfed !tell tantek more on https://snarfed.org/responses
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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acegiak Is there an mf2 equivalent to rel-syndication and is anyone using it?
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acegiak is bouncing from task to task
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /micropub (+286) "/* Clients */ added implementations section" (view diff)
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barnabywalters ^^^^
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aaronpk acegiak: rel-syndication is used in mf2
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barnabywalters indieauth/micropub implementors, please add your libraries to that page
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barnabywalters especially if you have a non-PHP implementation
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barnabywalters acegiak: u-syndication, and yes it is in use
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barnabywalters e.g. in http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/original-post/
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aaronpk or yes that
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acegiak coolios: I'll look that then
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kylewm.com edited /Twitter (+52) "/* POSSE Reposts of Tweets */" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 10 minutes ago: yup, many of us have (indie retweeted), e.g. https://snarfed.org/2014-04-21_twitter-t-going-to-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 6 minutes ago: more on https://snarfed.org/responses
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snarfed oh man, mediawiki's conflict resolution UI is baaad
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bdesham barnabywalters: suppose my page includes About <abbr title="Benjamin Esham">Me</abbr>. how would I mark up that title attribute as being part of an hcard?
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snarfed hard problem, but still
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barnabywalters <abbr class=“p-name” title="Benjamin Esham">Me</abbr>
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barnabywalters wonders if it would be helpful to have a list of elements and how they’re parsed in different circumstances
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barnabywalters like the microformats parsing spec but aimed at authors rather than implementors
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bdesham yes it would! :)
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barnabywalters (further disucussion in #microformats)
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barnabywalters bdesham: thanks! that is useful feedback
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snarfed.org edited /Twitter (+316) "/* POSSE to Twitter */" (view diff)
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bdesham barnabywalters: hmm, the tools by both you and kartikprabhu pick up "Me" as the value of the "name" property
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bdesham (should I take this question to #microformats instead?)
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barnabywalters bdesham: yep let’s debug this further there
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bdesham kk
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snarfed.org edited /Facebook (+317) "/* POSSE out to */ snarfed/bridgy" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /silo-quits (+391) "Stubbed bnvk 2014-06 facebook silo quit" (view diff)
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caseorganic !tell brennannovak aaronpk and I will be in iceland dec 4-8! have you been to Blue Lagoon Geothermal Resort pool in Grindavík, Iceland?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk bnvk: ^
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bnvk :)
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bnvk caseorganic: yep, been to the Blue Lagoon a few times- I definitely recommend it. Perhaps you can help me persuade barnabywalters to come <trollface> >:]
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barnabywalters bnvk: the sea or nothing!
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bnvk haha
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bnvk wait, you said lakes & rivers are ok?
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bnvk oh, that reminds me caseorganic it's also worth going to natural geothermal rivers, they're pretty darn rad
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caseorganic bnvk: neat!
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caseorganic bnvk: good idea
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barnabywalters bnvk: better those than factory runoff water at blue lagoon :)
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barnabywalters caseorganic aaronpk really looking forward to having you here!
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caseorganic bnvk: as long as we don't go chasing waterfalls
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barnabywalters caseorganic: you’re a waterfall hater?
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caseorganic bnvk: we're definitely more accustomed to rivers and lakes. you might say that's what we're used to
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bnvk no, they just lead to the rivers and the streams that we're used to
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aaronpk bnvk++
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Loqi bnvk has 4 karma
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caseorganic bnvk: great. we'll stick to those
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bnvk :D
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caseorganic bnvk++
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Loqi bnvk has 5 karma
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barnabywalters caseorganic: aaronpk: if you’re more into caves there are also plenty of those
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tantek wakes up to see discussion of caves. Indie-caving?
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tantek invites bnvk caseorganic to #indiechat.
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caseorganic tantek: duly noted
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caseorganic bnvk: join #indiechat for off-indietopic community chat
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tantek :)
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pfefferle snarfed do you use custom post types for that?
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tantek did anyone answer Jeena's question about "We need a way to show that a website is webmentions enabled" ?
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tantek (reframed as a how to)
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kylewm tantek: how would you feel about adding that note about indiechat to this channels welcome message? so no one has to kick people out
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rascul put it in /topic
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tantek kylewm - it's been a low level enough issue that we can keep introducing people by person / personally
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tantek perhaps make a note first on /IRC
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rascul often channels here on freenode that also have offtopic channels put it in /topic
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tantek also, putting things in /topic doesn't scale well
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aaronpk pfefferle: I still don't see the webmention icon here http://pfefferle.github.io/openwebicons/
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tantek in typical IRC client UIs
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tantek why does there need to be a webmention icon?
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tantek or RSS icon?
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tantek or even microformats icon
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rascul not scale well? topic here is shorter than any other channel i'm in ;)
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tantek for people to display on their sites?
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tantek rascul - yes, that's by design
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rascul i never look at topic anyway heh
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kylewm can only speak for my over sensitive self but it feels a little harsh
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tantek kylewm - which feels harsh? the personal or impersonal approach?
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pfefferle aaronpk yes, have forgotton to update the page… but it is part of the font… (icon-webmention)
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aaronpk ah ok
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kylewm tantek: being personally invited to leave feels harsh :)
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pfefferle will update the page later today if i don’t forget it ;)
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tantek oh dear
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kylewm that said, caseorganic et al know where they stand with you so probably I really am being over sensitive
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@jjmajava RT @kevinmarks: "@qz: Apple took another step towards obscuring the way the web works http://t.co/942qT8ChnQ" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/474945439587119104)
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caseorganic kylewm: oh, i'm happy to join #indiechat! forgot it existed.
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caseorganic kylewm: tantek: good to put in the topic maybe? but regardless, it was a nice reminder
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@Markotweet RT @kevinmarks: "@qz: Apple took another step towards obscuring the way the web works http://t.co/942qT8ChnQ" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/474946529309237248)
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@acegiak https://t.co/Yd70XMp7uA: Jeena, about 6 hours ago2014-06-06 09:30:29 (4) I often... http://acegiak.net/2014/06/07/httpsjeena-netnotes-jeenaabout-6-hours-ago2014-06-06-0930294-i-often-see-a-blog-post-which-i-would-like-to-comment-on-but-there-is-no-comment-field-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/474944937952178176)
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kylewm acegiak: your timezone is really +0930?
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rascul australia appears to have a +0930 time zone https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/World_Time_Zones_Map.png
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barnabywalters IIRC sandeepshetty is also in a :30 timezone
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rascul there's a few :30 time zones and apparently one :45
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@nptechweekly FYI, a story in this week’s newsletter has a bad link in it. It’s actually http://indiewebcamp.com (not .org) #nptech (twitter.com/_/status/474950483736797184)
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aaronpk oops that's supposed to redirect
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acegiak kylewm: yeah, why
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kylewm fractional timezones, how exotic!
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kylewm acegiak: mostly checking that I parsed it correctly
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kylewm but also curiosity
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aaronpk now it does
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acegiak yeah. The large corporate lobbyist keep pressuring the state government to change it because "the eastern states laugh at us and our 30 minutes difference" but we like having midday be midday
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acegiak we don't want to have a western china situation
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acegiak and then there are two regions within that tiny timezone, one of which has daylight savings and one of which doesn't
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acegiak so yeah: it's a timezone containing less than 2 million people
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barnabywalters greetings emmak — is your micropub/indieauth code available? if so add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Implementations!
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kylewm acegiak: ha yes one timezone for all of aus would be bad, but halves and quarters feels like micromanaging the sun :)
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aaronpk I saw a good argument for having only 2 timezones in the US
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emmak barnabywalters: yes, its available. i've been planning to update the wiki
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acegiak kylewm: the problem is the sheer size of the place
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acegiak then next timezone along is perth which is the most remote city in the world
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luxagraf kylewm: if i recall correctly, Nepal has a :15 zone. had a revamp my parser to handle it
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snarfed !tell pfefferle no custom post types for my possed retweets, favorites, etc. just categories to hide them from front page etc.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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luxagraf Is anyone using markdown in their notes?
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kylewm I am being a total american underestimating the size of other places
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acegiak snarfed: I'm trying to work out if I can have my actual articles "float to the top" of my feed page somehow so they don't get drowned out by all the wallspam I post
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luxagraf if so what do you do when POSSEing to twitter?
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acegiak kylewm: pretty sure it's a similar size to your country but with much less of it habitable?
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snarfed acegiak: sure! make a dedicated page with two shortcodes, first one to display articles, then one to display notes
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acegiak snarfed: this is good idea!
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snarfed acegiak: for example, https://snarfed.org/archive has posts and then pages, and it's generated by this: https://github.com/snarfed/snarfed.org/blob/master/archive.txt
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acegiak that is neat!
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GWG Just got off the plane. I think I'll go home. I see I have a pull request to look at
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Loqi GWG: acegiak left you a message 2 hours, 21 minutes ago: pull request for you: https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-taxonomy/pull/1
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acegiak hahaha
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acegiak yeah...
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acegiak I was distracting myself from a shitty evening
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acegiak I'm supposed to be sleeping
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acegiak gnight
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GWG acegiak, night
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GWG snarfed, I saw your category usage in the press this plugin. You hard-coded it
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snarfed luxagraf: i use markdown. everything automated pulls text from the generated html, though, not from the notes, which usually works ok
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snarfed GWG: hah yes, that's a particularly rough edge
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snarfed pfefferle's plugin is nicer, and i think it just dropped that part: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this
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GWG I am still hoping to finish a solution that I like someday
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snarfed go for it!
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GWG Knowing me, I'll build it then tear it down again
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snarfed that's how most (good) design works
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GWG snarfed, as I have been told
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luxagraf snarfed: so you strip html after converting?
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snarfed luxagraf: yeah, but my needs are pretty modest. i posse articles/notes manually, and only automate replies, RTs, favorites, and event RSVPs (with https://www.brid.gy/about#publish ), and those never have meaningful HTML tags
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luxagraf snarfed: gotcha.
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rascul i'm still undecided if i want to use markdown for notes
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rascul it would be nice for some things, like for bold and whatnot, but most of it i can't really see the use for in a note
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luxagraf rascul: my main use case was for links. so I can render them in html on my site and pass just the url to twitter
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snarfed it's kinda personal preference
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snarfed for authoring, i find markdown *massively* easier to write
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snarfed but it's controversial around here :P
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luxagraf snarfed: why? because it's another layer/moving part?
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snarfed luxagraf: why it's controversial?
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bret i use markdown :)
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rascul tbh i'm still undecided if i want to use markdown at all for anything
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barnabywalters I write notes in markdown, typically manually writing HTML if I need things like properly embedded SVGs, but store and edit HTML
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luxagraf snarfed: yeah
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rascul i'm currently using it for articles, but i don't know that i'll keep it that way, html isn't hard for me
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snarfed eh. people often get religious about languages, syntax, web formats and protocols, etc
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rascul and sometimes i end up putting a bunch of html in articles anyway
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rascul but then i'm still writing my software and don't quite have a working implementation yet ;)
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snarfed and sometimes take DRY to an extreme (ie never want to generate derived versions of data in different formats)
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rascul the main selling point for me to use markdown is that i can provide markdown sources, for some reason i really want to do that
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luxagraf I generally agree with the wiki /markdown but for me readability make markdown the best for of "source".
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luxagraf i.e. take away everything else from my entire site and you would still have something readable
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rascul interesting point you have there, which goes along with my want to provide markdown sources
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luxagraf e.g https://luxagraf.net/2013/may/29/oysterman-wanted/index.txt isn't pretty like https://luxagraf.net/2013/may/29/oysterman-wanted/
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luxagraf but it's readable
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rascul currently my rendered articles go to /articles/slug and markdown source is at /articles/slug.md
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rascul rendered might not be right, converted?
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snarfed rendered sounds fine
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luxagraf I do think markdown gets to be a problem when you start needing some specific implmentation and 6 plugins to properly convert/render your text
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gRegor` Apparently Tweetbot doesn't yet support Twitter's multiple photos, only showing the first one. Caused confusion when a friend only saw one photo when two were meant to be compared.
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rascul luxagraf yeah i agree, should use standard implementations to prevent that
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rascul there's a testsuite from daringfireball to test this stuff
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luxagraf rascul: i think that's part of the problem though, there really isn't a standard
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luxagraf rascul: Jeff Atwood wrote about that a while back, the need for a standardized, updated version of markdown
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luxagraf The secret to markdown is knowing when to stop using markdown and start writing HTML
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rascul yeah all we really have to go on is john gruber's (old?) syntax docs
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rascul i agree with the when to stop using it also
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rascul afaik this is the latest version of the markdown testsuite http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2006-June/000079.html
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rascul i only know it exists because discount mentions it
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Jeena tantek, "why does there need to be a webmention icon?" I was at http://mattgemmell.com/the-gift-of-writing/ and wanted to answer, there is no comment form. I wondered if I would send a webmention if it would ever get to Matt or if he would never even known about my comment on my own website. Then I had to look into the HTML source code didn't find a <link> there and then do a curl -I http://mattgemmell.com/the-gift-of-writing/ to see that he
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Jeena wouldn't get it and I probably should use twitter or write him a email. That is a terrible UI.
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rascul an icon could be a simple way to advertise that you accept webmentions
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tantek Jeena - I suppose I see that as your own site's responsibility to show you in your reply posting UI
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tantek that it would detect what you're replying to
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tantek and do webmention endpoint discovery
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tantek and then show you some notification - like whether or not the site you're replying to accepts webmention and/or pingback
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tantek I feel like we've brainstormed about this somewhere already
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tantek maybe with barnabywalters as part of the "Reply" webaction UI brainstorming
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Jeena uhm yeah, that is not much better UI wise. I think I will try to write a browser extension like https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/humanstxt-detector/?display=en
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Jeena but yeah I was thinking more in the lines rascul does
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bdesham my workflow for my website doesn't use a web browser at all unless I'm previewing how a page will look. there's no "composing" page or anything like that where it would make sense to put that kind of check
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bdesham so I agree with Jeena that tantek's solution is not always ideal
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Jeena It just would be nice to know if if it is worth opening my reply UI or just go to twitter
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bdesham plus, including some kind of icon that indicates that you check for webmentions is also an opportunity to teach people what webmentions are
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rascul indeed, i had also considered that random joe might not know what the strange icon means so perhaps he would click it and find out
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Jeena for now I will add the <form> I saw some people added and link to webmention.org in a text describing it
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gRegor` Jeena: in the scenario where the posting UI shows no webmention support, couldn't you then select a "syndicate to twitter" option, so the recipient sees it?
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gRegor` (coming into the convo late, sorry if I missed something)
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gRegor` (I do kind of like the idea of a webmention icon, though.)
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Jeena yeah but more often then not I don't even know if the person has twitter and if what username, etc.
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gRegor` Gotcha
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Jeena often I just click on a random link some of my friends post on Facebook or link in one of their blog posts
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gRegor` In that case, it might be handy to have a "social media discovery" process. "This URL doesn't support webmentions, but it looks like they have a [twttier/fb/g+ links]"
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gRegor` yeah, makes sense
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Jeena people normally don't link their facebook to their website, and those who do mostly also implement webmentions ;)
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gRegor` I just mean links to those on the URL you're mentioning
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gRegor` Could be more work than necessary though, esp if they're not marked up with rel-me
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Jeena yeah but that social media discovery would need to figure out their twitter/facebook from that url
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Jeena that is what I mean, if they mark up with rel-me they also tend to implement webmentions
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gRegor` Just trying to think of something easier than scrolling to the bottom of that sample link you gave to find the "follow me on twitter" link. I guess there is the share button up top
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gRegor` Even just a list of suggested links. "These twitter links were found."
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Jeena I still would like to know it in that place, not first after I opened my UI. Like with the Feed icon in the browser/on the website. If I don't see it I don't open my TinyTinyRSS instance and give it the URL so it could perhaps autodiscover that there is a Feed. But if I see it I know that I can subscribe.
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aaronpk i like the idea of having an icon in my browser that shows webmention support
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aaronpk kind of like that one that discovers microformats (we should make an updated version of that for mf2 btw)
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Jeena yeah that would be enough for me
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bdesham plus, don't underestimate the power of branding!
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Jeena I already have a RSS one, a humans.txt one and microformats one.
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aaronpk what's that cross-browser extension framework thingy?
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aaronpk oh there are a bunch :/
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tantek aaronpk, agreed on both a browser-extension to show webmention support on a page, and and update to the microformats browser-extension!
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tantek bdesham - the "power of branding" did nothing for OpenID, and just confused/alienated people with XML gobbledygook when they clicked those orange RSS/XML buttons
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tantek branding for pipes / backend tech like that is one of the mistakes of the last decade
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@AndrewHazlett @bosconet @Sharon_Paley see this @t post http://tantek.com/2013/322/b1/homebrew-computer-club-reunion-inspiration and http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/474986424140189696)
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tantek in independent web development
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tantek people in general do not care about plumbing, they care about features and experience
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tantek feeds are not a feature. feeds are plumbing for the features of subscription, reading, etc.
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Jeena if the alternative is to have to look into the source code, I rather see the icon
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tantek no the alternative, as you pointed out, is to put a webmention form
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tantek which is a functional display of the *feature* of commenting
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tantek rather than marketing of the plumbing of webmention
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tantek same problem with all the "Trackback" and "pingback" links
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tantek clicking them was not useful
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Jeena nobody suggested a webmention link
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bdesham tantek: I was going to retort that maybe openid was just too complicated to understand to begin with... but webmentions would probably have the same problem
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tantek Jeena - a webmention icon implies a link to webmention
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aaronpk openid is way more complicated than webmention :)
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Jeena no it doesn't
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tantek Jeena - ok, I'll take your word for it - and await seeing what you mean on your site :)
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aaronpk several of us have taken to putting something in the footer of our sites saying "this site supports webmention"
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Jeena hehe for now I implemented the form thingy
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aaronpk see aaronparecki.com and I forget who else
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Jeena and a text like aaronpk is suggesting
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tantek Jeena - right! I think you're doing the right thing.
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tantek *doing*
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tantek perhaps such simple text is fine
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Jeena yeah
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tantek or maybe "this site supports webmention comments"
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aaronpk that's better
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tantek or even "indie comments"
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tantek leaving out the plumbing in the initial text blurb
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tantek and only describe webmention in the longer prose
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tantek there's no need for casual readers / users to ever worry or know about "webmention"
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tantek just like there was never a need for them to know or wonder what "RSS" meant
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Jeena that is why we now try to use the word Feed instad of RSS
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aaronpk so with RSS it should have said "you can subscribe to this website", so for webmention it should say "you can comment on this post"?
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Jeena and that is why we use the word email instead of SMTP and IMAP
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tantek Jeena, but feed was never a feature. Feed is just an abstraction for specific feed file formats.
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tantek aaronpk - exactly
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aaronpk also "text" instead of "sms" or "imessage"
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tantek *user* feature centric
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Jeena feed it kind of a feature to me so I don't have to visit the website every day, or what do you mean
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tantek Jeena - that's not feed, that's a *subscription*
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tantek that's the *user* functionality. Frankly, whether that subscription is delivered by a feed or by email is still just plumbing.
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tantek "don't have to visit the website every day" = subscription
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bnvk aaronpk: snarfed: has there been discussion of adding a "type" field to webmentions so as to differentiate between like / favorite, share / retweet, and comment / reply ?
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tantek bnvk - can't trust it
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aaronpk bnvk: that's done by looking at the microformats on the page
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tantek see all previous work on "fat pings"
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bdesham admittedly I'm a power user, but if I saw a link saying "subscribe to this website" I *would* absolutely care whether it was RSS/Atom or email--those are totally different to me
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snarfed bnvk: yeah, you get pretty much everything like that from the page mf2
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aaronpk right now I show likes/reposts/comments/mentions all differently
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aaronpk bnvk: e.g. http://aaron.pk/n4WS2 is a good example
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bnvk right
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bnvk I've started trying to do that as well https://brennannovak.com/essays/dear-facebook-goodbye
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Jeena I agree with bdesham, we are not at the point that the plumbing doesn't matter. If I read subscribe I would think it would be for money and would get a PDF or something in my email.
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aaronpk sweet!
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bnvk but in the JSONP, there doesn't appear to be a differentiating attribute, right?
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snarfed Jeena, bdesham: that's not really the right analogy. reading email vs using a feed reader is a real UX difference
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bnvk unless I missed something
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tantek bbiab!
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snarfed the right analogy is e.g. Atom vs RSS. *that's* a plumbing difference
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Jeena I subscribe to a feed and to a newsletter
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aaronpk bnvk: I see what you mean. however that is the fault of the webmention.io API, not of webmention the protocol
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bnvk right
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aaronpk yes absolutely webmention.io should figure that out for you and include a JSON property
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bnvk okie, how are you separating them at present? Just with the item.data.content str val?
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aaronpk on my site you mean?
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aaronpk take a look at the source of a "like" post, it contains a "u-like-of" property which indicates it's a like. http://pin13.net/C6H
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aaronpk that's enough to tell whether the post is a like or a comment, no need to inspect the text
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gRegor` aaronpk, Jeena: kylewm was another that has an HTML page on the webmention endpoint linked in the footer: https://kylewm.com/webmention
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aaronpk ah nice! his prompt text is "Want to leave a comment? Send me a webmention!"
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Jeena but that stills mentions the plumbing
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aaronpk at least it's user action first
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bnvk aaronpk: so you hit the source URL and get it from the MF data?
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aaronpk yes
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bnvk ah ok
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aaronpk that's part of the step of verifying there's actually a link back
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aaronpk cause you have to do that first which involves fetching the whole http page anyway, so you might as well parse it and look at the microformats
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bnvk right… but in the case I'm just doing the lazy mans webmtion.io jsonp that doesn't quite make sense
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aaronpk bnvk: yeah webmention.io should be doing that for you because it's already done the step of verifying the link
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bnvk right, ok. I am understanding how this works :)
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gRegor` aaronpk: New section on /webmention to document these HTML webmention endpoints?
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aaronpk gRegor`: yes plz :)
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gRegor` What should the subheading be? Endpoint display?
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aaronpk bnvk: issue opened https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/18
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bnvk w00t
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gregorlove.com edited /webmention (+301) "/* Implementation Notes */ +accessing endpoints in the browser section." (view diff)
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Jeena for a decentralized community we sure use a lot of centralized websites, webmention.io, brid.gy, indieauth.com, etc. ;)
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gregorlove.com edited /webmention (+11) "/* accessing endpoints in the browser */" (view diff)
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snarfed Jeena: yeah, that's come up before
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snarfed reuse isn't inherently bad
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snarfed even reusing services (as opposed to e.g. libraries)
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gRegor` OurSilosAreBetterCamp
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gRegor` ;) jk
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Jeena hehe
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snarfed open source is a key difference. you can run your own instance of all of those
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gRegor` ^ Yep, that.
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gRegor` Good /FAQ material
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Jeena but I have to admit to myself, without brid.gy my website would only be half as interesting. But I see it as a intermediate thing until I have the time to bake it into my own software
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snarfed the ideal end state is that the *silos* implement mf2 and webmention, not that each of us reimplements backfeed for ourselves
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snarfed but that won't happen
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snarfed and again, i'm all for heavy reuse. specialization is really powerful. if you want to build your own backfeed as a learning exercise, that's great, but otherwise it's way more useful to contribute to existing project(s), or to work on something that doesn't already exist
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snarfed (just my opinion, obviously)
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bnvk I don't get too hung up on the 100% decent aspect, as the web itself isn't 100%… the DNS prob, but, it's good enough for the most part
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bnvk seriously, snarfed thanks for making such a solid service ;)
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bnvk off to a picnic!
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aaronpk also each person can decide whether to use the services, and can switch
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aaronpk services aren't inherently bad
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aaronpk it's just important that people are in control of which services they use and have options to switch if they want
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gRegor` Old websites brought back to life (via neocities): http://www.wolfgang-ziegler.com/blog/the-first-website-i-ever-built
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rascul the first web site i built used frames and had a green background
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rascul that's all i remember of it
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gRegor` Checked for it on archive.org, rascul?
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gRegor` Mine was geocities, so there's some HTML of the last revision, but no images.
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rascul i wouldn't know how to find it
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gRegor` Don't remember the URL?
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rascul nope, not even who hosted it
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gRegor` Heh
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aaronpk my first website had a splash page with a sweet image that said "click to enter" ... green text on a black background IIRC
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rascul likely it was geocities or tripod though, but i dunno
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rascul that was also the first and last personal web site i built for myself heh
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gRegor` Imagine if Yahoo would give back geocities.com
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gRegor` s/give back/sell back/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: Imagine if Yahoo would sell back geocities.com
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gRegor` The upcoming.org precedent. :)
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rascul i wonder if they still have all that data stored somewhere
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rascul yahoo/geocities i mean
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gRegor` I doubt it, but Archive Team got all or at least most of it before it went offline.
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gRegor` It's downloadable, if you have a spare HD. :D
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gRegor` There's also http://www.oocities.org/ and probably others
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gRegor` https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocities#Archiving_GeoCities_Web_sites
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aaronpk I should make squishycities like how I made my own livejournal clone called squishyjournal
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Loqi yea
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kylewm following the discussion of /expenses this morning, is there any interest in setting up a gittip "team" to receive donations? (you would create an account based on the indiewebcamp twitter and/or indieweb github acct). could initially allocate %'s based on proportion of /expenses a given person represents
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rascul would be nice if i could donate some monies to the indieweb
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aaronpk rascul: cool, are you interested in supporting particular projects?
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rascul not specifically
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kylewm (i'm also not pushing gittip in particular, i'm just most familiar with it)
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rascul i'd be happy donating to some indieweb group thing and letting it go where needed
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk trying to avoid yet another centralization of things if possible, but if people feel like they want to contribute to a pool then the market speaks
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kylewm same here, no particular project, but would donate a little toward the hosting of the wiki and other common resources
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rascul i think for this, centralization makes sense
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rascul maybe in such a fashion where if people wanted they could donate to indieweb/bridgy for example, or just indieweb
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aaronpk i think specific project donations should be encouraged whenever possible
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kylewm snarfed won't accept your donation :)
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aaronpk if that's the case then snarfed can make a "donate" page that says "donate to the indieweb pool instead!"
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aaronpk related, I've recently gotten some beef from my accountant about accepting donations, since it turns out only non-profits can accept donations
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aaronpk it has to be called something else, such as "pay-what-you-will software"
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aaronpk and the money is taxed as income unless the recipient is a 501c3 non-profit
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rascul there's a word i'm trying to remember that might fit that
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rascul damn my horrible rememberey
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kylewm oh that's surprising, i had no idea
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aaronpk most people don't, until tax season comes around
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kylewm kind of the whole point of gittip is to give money to ppl for no particular purpose
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gRegor` rememberey, haha
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Loqi hehe
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rascul memory = stuff i know, rememberey = stuff i remember :)
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gRegor` Yeah, I wouldn't mind chipping in for hosting, etc.
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gRegor` Yep, it totally works rascul
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rascul i'd like to donate to some pool because i don't want to pick favorites
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kylewm maybe indiewebcamp should become a 501c3, how hard could it be? </kidding>
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rascul some sort of automatic monthly thing i could setup and forget about would be perfect for me :)
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aaronpk kylewm: i've thought about it but there are many many reasons that is not as easy as it sounds
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rascul 501c3 = nonprofit?
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aaronpk in the US yes
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aaronpk tax-exempt, specifically
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rascul i have no clue what that involves heh
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gRegor` IndieWebCamp, Inc. ;)
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aaronpk I already have an LLC I use to accept sponsorship checks and such
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aaronpk I set up a gittip account, https://www.gittip.com/aaronpk/ but it still feels not quite right to accept $ there for indiewebcamp hosting
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gRegor` Because it's gittip, or you mean the idea of accepting $ for hosting period?
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aaronpk because it's my personal gittip
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aaronpk an indiewebcamp gittip is an interesting idea
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kylewm if nothing else i'd be curious how much money it would get
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gRegor` Do the camps usually cover all their costs with sponsors, or do you/others pay out of pocket?
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kylewm no one has been terrifically successful on gittip though
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aaronpk usually the sponsors cover all the expenses, except for the last one in portland, but that was partially my fault
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aaronpk so I just ate the difference on it
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aaronpk I guess there's no reason not to make an indiewebcamp gittip. specifically indiewebcamp, not just indieweb tho.
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aaronpk hm there's this complicated "team" mechanism on gittip, but it seems overly complicated
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aaronpk gonna keep it as an individutal
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rascul if you're registered with nickserv (do so if you haven't) then you can do something like: /msg nickserv set property url http://rascul.io
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rascul then you can see it by /msg nickserv info rascul
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gRegor` Ah, good tip.
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gRegor` rascul++
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Loqi rascul has 3 karma
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gRegor` Can you set your own properties, or a pre-defined list?
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rascul you can set whatever, see /msg nickserv help set property
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rascul maybe i'll put that on the irc page
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bret anyone familiar with Personal access tokens on github?
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rascul gRegor` see this also http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC#Personal_domain_whois
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rascul the nickserv one isn't as fun though, people don't normally use nickserv info they're more likely to /whois
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tantek tries to catchup on logs again!
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rascul puts ketchup on tantek's logs
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KartikPrabhu tried. so much discussion
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tantek KartikPrabhu: were you able to wikify some of the discussion results?
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KartikPrabhu which discussion results?
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KartikPrabhu I missed most of today morning if that's what you're asking
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tantek !tell petermolnar re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-06#t1402065802 link rel=author is respected by Google both by a direct link to a Google+ profile, OR (and preferably) by a link to your own website, which itself has rel=me to a Google+ profile.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+536) "add Silo Implementations section with Google Search" (view diff)
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tantek !tell petermolnar documented Google rel=author support here: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Google_Search
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com created /rel=author (+24) "r" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Yahoo (+26) "/* Dead Silos */ add upcoming.org" (view diff)
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gRegor` Redirect to itself, tantek? Think you meant rel-author?
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tantek where did I say redirect to itself?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: the rel=author redirects to rel=author
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tantek.com edited /rel=author (+0) "r to rel-author" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu good eye gregor`
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tantek oops!
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tantek thanks gRegor` KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu grins profusely!
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gRegor` Yo dawg, we heard you like rel-author . . .
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tantek rel=author ;)
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tantek also the whole meta name=author thing is a big a waste of time as meta keywords
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tantek invisible and obsolete
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tantek waste of space in your HTML
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KevinMarks aaronpk: gittip is a bit odd as it implies a weekly commitment
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aaronpk yes, but some people have actually said they want to contribute weekly
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aaronpk but you're right it doesn't cover the people who want to just contribute something once
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KevinMarks then that's a good fit
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KevinMarks Patreon is per-thing, so might be a good fit for Camps
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tantek perhaps split them into two sections for one-time vs. regular ?
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KevinMarks hm, I have $12.40 on gittip. I had no idea
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aaronpk yeah I had $25, no idea who from and didn't know about it!
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KevinMarks someone has been sending me $0.50 a week, then $.40
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aaronpk might be time for a /donate page on the wiki
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KevinMarks hm, what was my bitcoin wallet password.
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rascul sorry i can't find where i wrote it down
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rascul oh that was a joke i forgot the smiley ;)
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KevinMarks good job there's only .0199 BTC in it
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KevinMarks though that is apparently now worth $13 rather than $2.65 when I last looked
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rascul hehe i just looked it up too
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+906) "subheadings for post types supported to make it easier to link to them, clarify reply support to indicate multireply support as workaround for replying to an indieweb post and POSSE threading a reply" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - see my previous reference to a /donate page in the IRC logs maybe yesterday?
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tantek is going offline for a bit
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aaronpk will check
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Jeena oh finally I implemented so I can reply to more then one urls at a time
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Jeena and I moved comments to its own section, this will remove the noise from my notes
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aaronpk nice! you can add yourself to here now! http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply#IndieWeb_Examples
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Jeena hm, it did send the webmentions because my own system got one https://jeena.net/notes/181 but the other two don't show them right now. I'm not sure if they're just moderated or something else went wrong.
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Jeena I should write the responses into my log
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Loqi definitely
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Jeena oh, I do, and there was some error
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Jeena ah hehe only a absolute url /webmention as a endpoint instead of https://kylewm.com/webmention need to fix it
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Loqi [@wordyard] Links: IndieWeb optimism
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Loqi Ouellette’s self analysis
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Loqi native advertising’s scam: How we’re on the verge of an a... http://www.wordyard.com/2014/06/06/links-indieweb-optimism-ouellettes-self-analysis-native-advertisings-scam/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://twtr.io/n8K9dU3irU)
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Jeena ok, fixed, now I finally can add me to the wiki :)
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jeena.net edited /multiple-reply (+269) "added my examples" (view diff)
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aaronpk w00t
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@scottros IndieWeb optimism by @benwerd, selfy thoughts from @JenLucPiquant, @copyranter demolishes native ads: links @wordyard http://www.wordyard.com/2014/06/06/links-indieweb-optimism-ouellettes-self-analysis-native-advertisings-scam/ (twitter.com/_/status/475056530312527873)
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@benwerd RT @scottros: IndieWeb optimism by @benwerd, selfy thoughts from @JenLucPiquant, @copyranter demolishes native ads: links @wordyard http://… (twitter.com/_/status/475056787893129216)
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