#acegiakso the way you've got it set up at the moment only allows for a post to be one "kind" so I'm modding the version I'm running to allow multiples
#GWGacegiak, you can change that by removing one line.
#acegiakcause "like and reblog" is my most common use case
#aaronpkI just realized what's going on with acegiak's user page not showing the dfn
#aaronpki'm naively checking if there's already a p-summary tag and not automatically generating it from the dfn line
#gRegor`You could try an explicit p-summary instead of the <dfn>. That's what i have on mine currently.
#kylewmaaronpk: low urgency bug report: OwnYourGram seems to have stopped picking up my updates. publishing still works when I log in to OYG and click Test Post, but they stopped sending manually. (I recently revoked the app key and readded it when I changed to https)
#KartikPrabhuwhat kind of stuff do people put in the dfn on user pages?
#gRegor`The regex seems to work. aaronpk edited acegiak's page to make it work earlier, but he just added a line between the heading and the text, which you have already
#aaronpki actually added the explicit p-summary markup to make acegiak's work
#acegiakyeah, which is sometimes all, or sometimes a quote
#GWGYou also have something like pfefferle's reply context, where it pulls it in automatically
#acegiakif you want to see how I'm doing things currently without the taxonomy it's documented on my userpage in the wiki? I think the screenshots help
#GWGMy plan is always to build manual data entry and add automatic later.
#acegiakGWG: I currently have whisperfollow to prepopulate a mini form which I'm planning on extracting out into a modal and submitting results via ajax
#GWGWell, my design plan is, as mentioned, to build the manual data entry. The automatic can be a separate plugin, so you can extract from the source of your choice.
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#GWGI also want to put the URL above the content box
#acegiakyeah it would be nice to have those fields up top
#acegiakI could do a hack-y thing where I throw in some code that listens for the kind checkboxes/radiobuttons being toggled and then hide or display the divs, I'm just wondering if there's a proper wordpress way to do it
#GWGgRegor`: I just stayed up adding an HTML5 geolocation function to a taxonomy plugin, and I think I probably should have made it its own thing. But I was adding metadata fields and got carried away.
#cweiskeyes, but that does not provide the HTTP interface
#cweiskethis is the missing piece I did not want to write myself
#KartikPrabhuoh! I suppose you have to write the http yourself
#gRegor`cweiske: It can be pretty simple. Set up a form textarea and it's just three lines of PHP to parse and output it with mf2-php.
#cweiskegRegor`, I know that it can be pretty simple
#cweiskeI just prefer not to do it myself if the code is already available
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#petermolnarI'm catching up with yesterday evening
#petermolnarGWG that post-formats plugin is brilliant and could be a very good base for the webmentions plugin: custom post type, the same layout with changing fields, that would be really nice
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#acegiakGWG: are you creating a separate metabox for each meta field?
#Loqiacegiak: GWG left you a message 2 hours, 4 minutes ago: I seem to have put location as a field in there.
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#Loqibarnabywalters: gRegor` left you a message 5 hours, 58 minutes ago: I sent a PR for mf2-php
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#GWGacegiak: By type. One for the Response URL/title, and another for Location so far. I figured that I'd cover all additional metadata
#barnabywalterscweiske: oops, I left a !tell in #microformats for you accidentally instead of in here
#acegiakGWG: that makes sense. are you doing the citation thing another way other than just having a field for the citation text or are you just not using it?
#GWGacegiak: I never did a citation text myself, but I might add it in. I pushed the changes I did last night to the repository. I need to fix some of the location code I put in.
#barnabywalterscweiske: cool — hopefully that helps solve the problem you mentioned earlier
#rasculthat's the way to go with ssl i think, smaller certificate authorities you can build personal trust with instead of big ones you've never heard of
#@tjlAtom/RSS seems a less causally powerful expl for the indieweb’s death than the IRRESISTIBLE HOMOGENIZING FORCE OF GLOBAL CAPITALISM #PDF14 (twitter.com/_/status/474580742312574976)
#gRegor`barnabywalters: Is there a better way for me to fork / PR? It's still pretty new to me. Wasn't sure if I should have made a different branch name than master.
#barnabywaltersgRegor`: this seems to be working fine. I think some people ask contributors to squash all the commits in a PR into one, but I’m not particularly bothered about it
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#Loqibenwerd: aaronpk left you a message on 6/4 at 7:39pm: are you planning on coming to IWC West?
#benwerdaaronpk: literally having a conversation about PDX vs NYC right now
#snarfedthe posse part isn't too special, but the interesting part is that it can posse replies/comments, likes/favorites, and even event rsvps
#snarfedit's also nice that you can trigger it with a webmention to bridgy, so if you're rolling your own CMS and implement webmentions, you can use it to get posse support for free
#caseorganic!tell tantek if it makes the difference between him coming or not, i might go to nyc. but i'll also try to get him to come to harvard berkman center one in oct
#benwerdJust got an email from someone interested in having an Indie Web Camp at their space in Stamford, CT - thinking it's probably too short to have it simultaneous in June, but passing it over. aaronpk?
#kylewmbenwerd: that's very close to NYC, isn't it?
#LoqiGWG: petermolnar left you a message 2 hours, 21 minutes ago: I've altered the cf-post-formats by adding a radiobutton selector to the link type for webmention data ( like, reply, repost )
#benwerdbret: It's not News Challenge funding - it's matter.vc, which is partially Knight supported. It's a smaller pot of money but we get some very structured support, which is awesome.
#kylewmbenwerd: oh cool, my understanding is that is basically how reddit handled it too
#benwerdup to this point it was using Mongo's GridFS for file storage, which becomes heinously expensive - so native file support completes the picture.
#j12tbenwerd: how are you doing the “data model design” on top of blobs?
#j12tit gets really messy fast when making schema changes keeping track of all the properties and relationships
#benwerdj12t: it's no messier than using NoSQL. Essentially we're storing a JSON encapsulation of the object in the blob, for fast reconstitution
#benwerdwe're running a text search index, and some ownership and other metadata on the row itself. Metadata for searching is then a separate indexed set of tables.
#benwerdOur model needs are very slim, so this is essentially it
#benwerdwe're kind of jimmying a document database on top of mysql.
#benwerdThe schema is then controlled by the object classes in the code, which provide the structure via inheritance / interfaces
#j12tYou may not know this, but I’m also the main author of a graph database called InfoGrid.org … we use the same approach to store graphs in MySQL, and other blob stores
#benwerdWe are very likely to build indexed relationship tables in addition
#bdeshamI've done a bunch of web development using microdata. I'm now looking at the Indie Web stuff, but I'm unclear on the differences between microdata, microformats, microformats2, etc. Anyone have a quick summary?
#aaronpkmicroformats2 is less invasive into your existing html. it's possible to write a full h-card by doing just <a href="http://aaronparecki.com" class="h-card">Aaron Parecki</a>
#aaronpkmicroformats2 is replacing microformats1 since it has much cleaner parsing rules and is more easily extensible
#bretbdesham: microformats 2 is the newest version of microformats and is the foundation to a lot of indiweb projects relating to cross site commenting and interactions
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#bdeshamso I should go with either microdata or microformats2?
#luxagrafbdesham: I'm no expert, but basically microdata adds schemas and attributes to html elements, microformats1&2 use classnames
#bdeshamcross-site commenting would be nice to be able to do
#bdeshamI don't have a real clear set of goals otherwise ;)
#bdeshamah, this is for a personal site, by the way
#bretall of the cross site stuff has been done with microformats 2, and it would be a tough sell to talk people into switching and/or supporting microdata
#bretmicrodata can be used for google rich snippets
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#aaronpkIMO the only reason to use microdata is for the google rich snippets
#aaronpkcause the schema is defined by google and google is one of the only consumers of the data
#aaronpkI keep meaning to mark up my music pages with the microdata so I get neat little icons in the search results, but that's about it
#bdeshamhmm... I don't really publish any of the kinds of information that are snippet-able, afaik
#bretif I were to sit down and do a clean pass at my site right now I would do minimal microformats for google rich snippets and microformats2 for indieweb projects
#bretadding microdata requires all sorts of weird additions to html tags
#bretwheras microformats is just class names and heirarchy
#luxagrafaaronpk: Don't Bing/Yahoo also consume microdata? they're part of schema.org anyway
#aaronpkyeah probably. still only for search results.
#bretbdesham: what kinds of things do you want to mark up?
#luxagrafHas anyone here used microdata to markup blog posts and seen any change in how google presents your site in search results?
#luxagrafI had microdata for years and AFAIK it made zero difference to google
#bdeshambret: yeah, pretty much just blog posts, and some basic bio information on my "about me" page
#bdeshamluxagraf: I had the same feeling. I used microdata pretty extensively because I'm that kind of nerd, but I'm not sure it ever really did anything
#bdeshambret: and don't you need to use google+ for that authorship info anyway? I don't use g+
#luxagrafsnarfed: well yeah you can see theoretically how it might look with that parser, but, at least in my case the actual results were always pulled from my metadesc tags
#breti opened an account just for that. after turning off notifications and ignoring circles, i dont even notice it
#luxagrafactually I'm still using microdata for some geo tags and for my breadcrumbs, so not everything
#luxagrafI think it's just a nerd tic of mine though, why do you need microdata for breadcrumbs? other than because you can
#aaronpkah yeah, that includes neighborhoods and such
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#Loqitantek: caseorganic left you a message 1 hour, 47 minutes ago: douglas rushkoff asked if i was going to indiewebcamp nyc. i told him i was going to be at the portland one
#Loqitantek: caseorganic left you a message 1 hour, 46 minutes ago: if it makes the difference between him coming or not, i might go to nyc. but i'll also try to get him to come to harvard berkman center one in oct
#JonathanNealKartikPrabhu: are you testing in IE? Have you tested much with Safari iOS?
#aaronpktantek: do you run any analysis on your web server logs? like webalizer or awstats or whatever?
#KartikPrabhuJonathanNeal: Unfortunately not. I don't have access to those on my Ubuntu machine. But I am not very worried about it as SVG fails quite gracefully
#KartikPrabhuJonathanNeal: accessibility is a good point. On my actual site I am using role=presentation on the icons as I don't really want the voice readers to read the icon. I have the actual text anyway.
#aaronpkcitizencontact: if you just want to replace myopenid.com with another hosted solution you can just point to indieauth.com instead. check out my openid tags on aaronparecki.com
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#citizencontactThen look into this for a larger project, allowing people to send messages to congress.
#citizencontactwondering if indieAuth is reasonable replacement for OpenID for the project. I see that Twitter connection is possible, but no Facebook Connect interoperation.
#citizencontactthanks tantek. long time fan of yours.
#tantekIndieAuth is definitely a big upgrade of OpenID
#tommorristhe problem there is Facbeook Connect doesn’t really tie to the URL
#cweiskeha. where is the indieauth server that I can use without 3rdparty services?
#citizencontactno, not this year, but my partner in this effort David Moore is there.
#tommorriscitizencontact: I’d suggest that you probably don’t want indieauth for that. you probably want some kind of multi-network authentication system. look at OmniAuth in Rails, or Django-AllAuth in Python.
#tommorristhey let you have single user account + multiple social logins from different providers
#aaronpkcitizencontact: lol I was jokingly talking about adding postal address support to indieauth.com (along with fax support)
#tommorrisIndieAuth is for signing in with a URL and then fulfilling that authentication using one of the social silo providers
#aaronpkcitizencontact: the key with IndieAuth is that a domain name is the primary identity, so it assumes that everyone signing in will have their own domain.
#citizencontactI have been talking with USPS with an id that connects registered postal address with an online identity.
#aaronpkif that is not true of your demographic then I would not suggest using it
#tommorrismuch as it’d be awesome, most people don’t have a domain
#citizencontactI realize that is also true with OpenID at ones own domain. But this could be an option, especially for some.
#citizencontactAnd Oauth will have to be part of it anyway.
#tommorrisKevinMarks: that would imply that you are the controller of the URL. the SemWeb pedant draws an important distinction between the URL and the underlying thing.
#citizencontactAlso, is there any thought of using MicroData as I am very happy with this as a standard?
#tommorriscitizencontact: again, the social login systems like Omniauth and Allauth provide OpenID support. if you support OpenID, then indieauth people can log into it.
#tommorriscitizencontact: indieweb people mostly use microformats2, but there are weird exceptions (I’m an RDFa fanboy).
#citizencontactIn US, the postal service provides the best system to identify the address of a person, especially for jurisdictions as the Zip+4 is used for many political lines. Geo would not work.
#tantekthanks cweiske - that was what I was hoping for! :)
#tantekand used those lessons in the design of an even simpler, more efficient, and easier to use (add to markup) microformats2
#tommorriscitizencontact: the problem with that is there’s ambiguity (multiple people at one address, sometimes multiple people with the same name at one address), there’s reuse of identifiers (as the mail I get for previous tenants attests to)
#tantekcitizencontact, microdata is still one of the leftovers in the "HTML living standard" but no one really cares about it except for Google pushing it for their own semi-proprietary/oligopolic "schema.org"
#citizencontactmy interest in Microdata has a bit to do with the itemid feature and the possiblity of putting a "schema" similar to XML schema at the itemtype.
#tommorriscitizencontact: well, RDFa exists for that for the kind of rich (or perhaps overly-bloated and impractical) semantics. microformats2 is a fair bit simpler.
#tantekwow that "putting a schema similar to XML schema at the itemtype" sounds like architecture astronomy!
#tantekyes the itemid feature is useful and microformats2 re-uses it from microdata
#citizencontactI agree that RDFa is impractical. but Microdata is much better, object oriented and data friendly
#tantekin fact, in common #indieweb use-cases, we've never had any need for itemid
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#citizencontactI am working on a standard for legal citations, and itemid has a great use case for that and other things.
#tantekhowever, if you want to discuss "edge case" features like that, it's probably more appropriate for the #microformats channel
#tommorrisalso, the assumption that one address = a simple way to collect data about residents is problematic. here in the UK, the census gets sent out on a per-household basis and filled in on a per-household basis. I’ve read far too many papers about census methodology.
#tantekusually we try to scope discussions here to those that have some concrete #indieweb use-case
#Loqitantek meant to say: usually we try to scope discussions here to those that have some concrete #indieweb use-cases
#tommorrispeople often don’t give particularly accurate answers to some of the more personal questions about religion or sexuality if their parents or spouse are going to read it. ;)
#tantekcitizencontact: are you publishing legal citations on your own site?
#tommorriscitizencontact: so, in the indieweb/microformats communities, there’s a very pragmatic publish-first-legislate-later model around standards
#citizencontactI have been doing indieweb like things for over 15 years.
#tantekin general the "standards" discussions here tend to be about - what is the minimum possible spec/standard that works for simple indieweb sites, and is easily implementable
#tommorrislike, the first question that people like tantek and others here is “let’s see a web page where this is published"
#tantektommorris: indeed, though that's just the empiricism test from scientific method
#tantekcitizencontact: great! what's your personal site?
#tantekcitizencontact: btw do you have a citation for the disintegration (dropping support of) Microsoft Smart Tags? I'd like to document that
#aaronpk"they've never asked" is probably more like "nobody has come forward to offer to write one"
#citizencontactI've followed microformats for many years
#tantekcitizencontact: great - looks like you already have URLs to your Twitter etc. on there - if you hyperlink them and add rel="me" to the <a href> you should be able to get IndieAuth working
#citizencontactcan not add HTML into the openid profile page. looking for another openid hoster. otherwise I would.
#tantekaaronpk - well there is the flipside of, if a technology is too simple, and it's publicly documented for free on the web, there's less reason to write and sell a book about it
#aaronpkactually they said my OAuth 2 book is one of the few that is about a protocol rather than a specific language or technology
#tantekaaronpk - thought they had a TCP/IP others too
#KevinMarksthat was one of my big internal fights (wanting to use JSON rather than gdata for opensocial)
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#citizencontactaaronpk: great. I will attempt it and just use my own plone server and delegate. thanks.
#tantekcitizencontact, you could just *copy* and *fork* the markup from your hosted OpenID page, put it up as a static page, and make the improvements aaronpk speaks of
#aaronpkbdesham: yeah it uses Persona for email auth. in theory persona doesn't require a mozilla persona account but in practice that's the easier way to go
#tantekI should add a similar IndieWeb Examples page to that
#rasculyou can self host persona if you want but i trust mozilla for that
#citizencontactI like this. Wish I could pay for the hosting, even if small amount, so it can be self sustaining. Would have paid Janrain for Myopenid if they had asked.
#aaronpkwonder if it's worth adding an option to email you a code similar to sms auth so people don't need to figure out persona
#citizencontacttantek: liked your point about the similarities of profiles: my twitter/facebook/googleplus are so similar. if i can host my own profile page, with my own look and feel that would be the coup de grace.
#citizencontactaaronpk: best would be a registrar that included the indieauth/openid profile page for people. I have gotten people to switch to their own domains and then use google apps for email, etc. but their openid is not quite right for that solution IMO.
#aaronpki believe I asked if you had web server logs (since I know you don't use GA or other JS logs)
#cweiskeI thought about hosting persona myself, but don't use any tools/sites that require it
#cweiskeand tantek about sites that use openid login - I manage some typo3-based websites for our kindergarden, soccer club etc - they all require openid login for the backend
#tantekthere's still a personal site bias, but it can technically be done with profiles on silos too
#tantekcweiske - good to know about your experience with managing Openid logins on sites. If you'd like, feel free to add that in an "Additional Examples" section on the page.
#citizencontacttantek: It is a complex issue, identity, especially fighting the silos. been trying since the days of AOL IM. I will look into indieAuth more.
#bdeshamso indiewebify.me implies that I should have my h-card info on my site's front page, but most of that info is actually on an "about me" page. is it particularly important to have an h-card right on the front page?
#tantek.comedited /OpenID (+123) "move Additional Examples just below IndieWeb Examples for easier discover, add context" (view diff)
#lupinedevhi everyone! i lurked a little this morning. pretty new to most of this stuff but want to start POSSE-ing some of my social media posts soon.
#KartikPrabhubdesham: you can have a partial h-card on the homepage and link to your about page
#JonathanNealKartikPrabhu: in your own words, would you describe when you would use img vs presentation?
#KartikPrabhuJonathanNeal: My impression from reading the ARIA roles stuff is: img = and image that is actually the content of the post for instance illustrations and photos. presentation = image/elements used purely for decoration/aesthetics and don't add new content.
#bdeshamKartikPrabhu: should I use u-url for that kind of link?
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#kylewmaaronpk: in light of Google Analytics not showing search terms anymore, you should know your site was near the top for "ubuntu openssl version" when I searched for it earlier ;)
#lupinedevkylewm: thanks! Learned a lot being a fly on the wall in here already. Will speak up more when i have more questions :)
#KartikPrabhubdesham: you could just use <a class="h-card" href="/about">Your Name</a> the p-name and u-url can be implied from just that. See the footer of my site where I do that: https://kartikprabhu.com/
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#bdeshamKartikPrabhu: oh, that would be ideal! thanks
#tantekaaronpk, kylewm, I wrote this up based on what I understood from above, would appreciate your contributions (since I'm a bit of a a stats/site-analysis amateur) http://indiewebcamp.com/analysis
#gRegor`Does it make sense to say all times are Pacific unless otherwise specified on the HWC event pages?
#gRegor`vs. just specifying the timezone for each one
#tantekbut if there's a critical mass of HWC meetups at the same exact time, then perhaps that's just a multi-location event, including being remote visitable