#indiewebcamp 2014-08-11

2014-08-11 UTC
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KartikPrabhu ooo another Chicago person.
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KartikPrabhu waves to dotnic
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KartikPrabhu *fail
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@djp1974 RT @benwerd: A preview of the services @withknown is offering to educators & institutions: https://www.youtube.com/ #edtech #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/498638271820210176)
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@MarkMorvant RT @benwerd: A preview of the services @withknown is offering to educators & institutions: https://www.youtube.com/ #edtech #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/498664761781809152)
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kylewm anybody else getting push back from people who aren't comfortable with their replies being backfed? ref https://twitter.com/fraying/status/498575854977298432
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@fraying @scottros do you ever get any unhappy feedback on it? I feel a twitter conversation is different from commenting, but might just be me. (twitter.com/_/status/498575854977298432)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/27301982/342255025932027/506306793 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@mattn_jp URLに対して言及する際のプロトコル。既にライブラリが幾つかある。はてな さんいかが？ / “webmention - IndieWebCamp” http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (twitter.com/_/status/498679504479330304)
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@RtestR webmention - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/498680541936230400)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2014-222-lm-facebook-504-error.jpg]]""
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+265) "Link Wrapper Problems and Link Wrapper Unreliability" (view diff)
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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@Bali_Maha @cogdog @MiaZamoraPhD @jimgroom what's FriendFeed? :) is it like the #indieweb version of facebook? (twitter.com/_/status/498722261449601024)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/487370638374363136/14099692 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (webmention)
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voxpelli tantek: good morning!
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voxpelli kylewm: the only causes for push back on backfeeding would be either that the source isn't clearly presented (that it isn't clear that it's a tweet) or that it isn't removed if the original tweet is removed (does Brid.gy support removal of tweets?)
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jonnybarnes hey indiewebcamp
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Jeena hey jonnybarnes, I think everybody from the other continent is still asleep ;)
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jonnybarnes Jeena: well of course
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jonnybarnes Jeena: are you in Europe then?
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Jeena Yes, Sweden.
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jonnybarnes cool, so does your clock say 11:09? Im from the UK
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voxpelli Jeena: nice with a fellow swede!
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@reinergaertner PESOS oder POSSE? Eine Frage der Ehre. Meine Daten und Inhalte gehören mir! Auf ins #indieweb - http://rgae.de/20 (twitter.com/_/status/498773561276776448)
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Jeena voxpelli, thing is I only live in Sweden, I'm from Germany originally (or I'm born in Poland actually)
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tommorris oh by the way, indiewebsters, I saw that a friend of mine has started POSSE-ing to FB and Twitter of his own accord without really being connected to the community. http://stuff.dave.org.uk/
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jonnybarnes tommorris: oh I get it, his sites using tumblr and its through tumblr that its getting posted to twitter
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jonnybarnes ooh, barnabywalters, you might now?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: I have no idea what that meant :)
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jonnybarnes why is php-mf2 giving me the human readable content of the time tag for `published` for one HTML file
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jonnybarnes but the attribute value of datetime="" for another HTML file
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: er, that should not be happening — can I see the files?
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jonnybarnes just getting them in a gist
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jonnybarnes https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/8badbaa106ba7fa30194
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tommorris jonnybarnes: ah, I didn't get that it was Tumblr.
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barnabywalters tommorris: it’s well hidden, the usual Follow button isn’t there
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jonnybarnes these are just generic html to test my webmentions parsing class im writing
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jonnybarnes thus the nemes joe bloggs and billy
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: that would be due to the missing = between the datetime property name and value on line 26
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barnabywalters https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/8badbaa106ba7fa30194#file-testreplycontent-html-L26
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cweiske that's what you get from not validating html
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: webmention parsing class sounds good, what does it do? find links to webmention, or parse h-entries for display?
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jonnybarnes basically when I jacked together webmentions on my site to get them working I didn't like the result. the best word I can come up with to describe my code is "fragile"
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jonnybarnes s/jacked/hacked
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Loqi jonnybarnes meant to say: basically when I hacked together webmentions on my site to get them working I didn't like the result. the best word I can come up with to describe my code is "fragile"
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jonnybarnes so I'm writing the actual heres the parsed mf and heres what I actually need to display on my website into its own library with relevant tests
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jonnybarnes writing the tests now
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jonnybarnes so Im going to do what aaronpk does fro example, if I can't find the 'name' property, use the hostname the webmention came from as oppose to just failing, which is what my production code currently does
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: http://github.com/indieweb/php-comments might be of interest, as well as my feed-reader-oriented wrapper around it: https://github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness/blob/master/src/app.php#L81
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: so is items-props-published meant to be machine readable then?
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jonnybarnes looks like what I'm trying to do 😊
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, it’s supposed to be ISO8601
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jonnybarnes yo barnabywalters, once you've tagged a commit, how do you sign the tag?
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: found it: http://git-scm.com/book/en/Git-Basics-Tagging#Signed-Tags
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voxpelli Jeena: I'm just happy that someone else from the same region is involved :)
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Jeena nice :) me too :)
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www.dentonjacobs.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (-46) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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aaronpk good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk *whew* no !tells
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kylewm.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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cuibonobo morning!
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cuibonobo today i've been thinking about this conversation: https://twitter.com/fraying/status/498575854977298432
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@fraying @scottros do you ever get any unhappy feedback on it? I feel a twitter conversation is different from commenting, but might just be me. (twitter.com/_/status/498575854977298432)
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cuibonobo i feel like on my site i may have different 'sections' at the bottom of an article to keep native comments, twitter replies, and other back-fed interactions separate from each other
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cuibonobo first, because i think collating the interactions with one another breaks up conversations
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cuibonobo and secondly, because the context of where these interactions came from is more obvious
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cuibonobo what do you think?
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aaronpk I don't find that distinction useful, personally
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aaronpk but that may be because I turned off native comments on my blog years ago
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cuibonobo i do admit that creating different sections for the various backfed silo comments seems like a design nightmare
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kylewm I think it's an interesting question ... on one hand i'm unsympathetic. if people start thinking a little harder about what they say to each other because tweets aren't quite so "ephemeral", that sounds pretty good actually
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kylewm but on the other, i can see why someone would feel uncomfortable, 'why is my name and face on your blog, i didn't put it there'
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gRegor` cuibonobo: I have local / external interactions combined and I think it's worked well so far. E.g. http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/
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cuibonobo maybe the answer is keeping them in the same stream more obvious stylistic difference between the comments
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kylewm gRegor`: to be fair, i don't think we're likely to have the traffic/visibility that scott does
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gRegor` If I added gravatar support for local comments, you'd barely be able to tell them apart without looking at the links.
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gRegor` kylewm: Meaning you think with a larger audience, more likely someone would get upset by it?
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kylewm pretty much, yes
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gRegor` Makes sense.
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kylewm (exponentially more likely because their comment will also get more visibility)
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gRegor` I feel like it could become a bigger problem with Facebook interactions, since their privacy settings are so obscure. How often do people look at the post visibility icon before commenting on something? :)
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gRegor` Wheras Twitter it's hopefully much more obvious if you're interacting with someone public or private.
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gRegor` The ability for someone to easily remove their silo content from your site would be good, too.
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kylewm yeah...
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kylewm that is not a fun problem
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kylewm just want to point out that it's pretty clear this is from twitter: http://www.wordyard.com/2014/08/10/doing-is-knowing-sweet-jane-and-the-web/#comments
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cuibonobo sure, but maybe we can do more than just "via twitter.com". I'm not sure!
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cuibonobo gRegor`, kylewm: I'm reminded of this article: https://medium.com/message/what-is-public-f33b16d780f9
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cuibonobo where we're saying "hey, you should have known this was public", but maybe that's not the *right* thing to do
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gRegor` I had "via" in an earlier version
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: Good morning (from Pacific Time)
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Loqi npdoty: kylewm left you a message on 8/7 at 8:02pm: yes about rendering webmentions client side! there is also https://webmention.herokuapp.com/
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Loqi npdoty: snarfed left you a message 3 days, 12 hours ago: also https://github.com/bcomnes/webmention.js
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Loqi npdoty: aaronpk left you a message 3 days, 10 hours ago: I know you already got a bunch of replies about this but yes that's correct. also you now have an account with the username "npdoty.name" :-)
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voxpelli I'm thinking of adding something like "from Twitter.com via Brid.gy" to my webmention endpoint, that solves part of the confusion
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voxpelli The other part is the classic debate of whether comments should be threaded or not – a Twitter discussion can be interpreted as a thread if there's a chain of replies and it might get confusing if it is not presented as a thread but instead mixed with other comments
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cuibonobo voxpelli: that was part of my concern as well. a conversation on Facebook is a different thread than a conversation on Twitter. interleaving them seems problematic
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aaronpk not really a classic debate anymore. modern UIs (twitter, facebook, etc) all decided that not-threaded is the way to go
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voxpelli aaronpk: Twitter is semi-threaded, isn't it? Replies are shown in connection to what it replies to
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aaronpk I'm talking about threading in the sense of forums, like hackernews
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voxpelli they don't indent like hackernews does, but they are presenting tweets higher and lower in the discussion hierarchy – even so when you embed a tweet elsewhere
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aaronpk example?
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voxpelli well, https://twitter.com/fraying/status/498575854977298432 on the web is one example
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@fraying @scottros do you ever get any unhappy feedback on it? I feel a twitter conversation is different from commenting, but might just be me. (twitter.com/_/status/498575854977298432)
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aaronpk or do you just mean the reply context?
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aaronpk yeah that's just a single thread. the permalink is for the tweet that's displayed on the white background, and twitter also shows the context around it, both above and below the chain
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aaronpk many people are doing that on their own sites here too
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voxpelli yes, and grouping related tweets together in the comments of a site would sure lessen the confusion
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voxpelli more so than separating content by source
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cuibonobo that's an excellent point
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aaronpk I guess I haven't seen a case where I really need that to happen. even twitter doesn't handle very long reply chains well, and it takes a person reading each message to actually figure out the conversation
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voxpelli I guess the same would actually be true for indieweb-discussions, showing that out of two comments, one is actually a reply to another, would be useful
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gRegor` dotnic has the best wiki user page so far: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Nicoletollefson.com
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gRegor` http://nicoletollefson.com/ is great, too.
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barnabywalters hah, awesome
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kylewm barnabywalters: another js question if you don't mind...how to you invalidate the browser cache when your app.js file changes?
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barnabywalters kylewm: actually I don’t yet, which has caused some problems in the past
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rascul hit reload twice
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kylewm hehe
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kylewm now i don't feel so bad!
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ben_thatmustbeme you can cheat and add app.js?v=2
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: pretty sure there can be problems with that sometimes too
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barnabywalters IIRC some network-level caches ignore query string parameters
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rascul yeah caching issues
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gRegor` Yeah, tack on the js file's modified date
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rascul if there's a cache between the browser and the site, anyway
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gRegor` Oh
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rascul depends on the cache though
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/known-and-education-a-love-story linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/why (webmention)
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snarfed cuibonobo, kylewm, gRegor`: you've probably already seen it, but just in case, http://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed#Discussion
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kylewm I wonder if I should have a disclaimer in my about me on twitter/facebook
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aaronpk removed the jquery dependncy for the irc logs yay
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Loqi giggles
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ben_thatmustbeme so whats the deal with the pushback against using jquery now? just get load times down since it is overkill
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aaronpk oh I use it all the time for stuff. but on the irc logs the only thing it was doing was selecting elements and adding a class. way not necessary.
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aaronpk I have no problem using it if i'm gonna actually use more complicated things from it
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ben_thatmustbeme fair enough
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gRegor` I hadn't seen that, snarfed
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gRegor` kylewm: I did add a note on my first cross-posted FB link, "Cool new feature: If you like or comment on this status, it will show up on the original post within ~5 minutes." but haven't on the two posts sine then.
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aaronpk wonder if I should change the timestamp column on the irc logs to include microseconds to avoid the error when there are multiple messages in the same second
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KevinMarks Microseconds might be overkill. Milliseconds? Centiseconds?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: good morning... err a little late though :)
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aaronpk oh i meant milli
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aaronpk *1000
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aaronpk unfortunately there's about 3 million records in this database so it's gonna take a loooong time to migrate the data
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KevinMarks Re the comments discussion, Twitter has the multiple overlapping threads problem too - see @pmarca's tweetstorms for examples
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@timweston Is there an #indieweb community in #Orlando ? (twitter.com/_/status/498883659819405312)
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KartikPrabhu re comments threads: IMO post pages should have direct replies to them in the comments thread. Replies to replies need special handling that I don't think anyone is figured out yet. Also, doing all this with backfeed is more complicated
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aaronpk right now everyone using bridgy gets replies to replies displayed the same as on twitter
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: well twitter does not distinguish them properly anyway, so bridgy has no real way of knowing
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: ?
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aaronpk twitter does, each tweet has an explicit in-reply-to ID
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snarfed right
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm yeah forgor about that. so snarfed what was the issue to send backfeed only to that ID ?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: heh yes, we did have this same discussion a few weeks ago. :P some of it is in that issue.
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snarfed it's a design decision. right now i've chosen to make it promiscuous, ie send to all previous posts in the chain, but that's definitely not set in stone
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KartikPrabhu alright! will look at the issue. Might help me when I finally get to using activity-streams to do my own backfeed :)
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snarfed bridgy definitely sees and uses that. it's promiscuous about where it send webmentions (and renders in-reply-to links), though, at least right now. it sends to every previous tweet in the direct reply chain that it can find an original post link for
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snarfed sure!
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snarfed (that's fairly new, only a few weeks old or so. before it would only send to one previous original post link, chosen arbitrarily)
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snarfed gory details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/217
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snarfed personally, i'd probably want to see more movement on people designing http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-chain for themselves before i make bridgy less promsicuous
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: why chosen arbitrarily. If a tweet knows what it is in reply to, shouldn't that be the one getting backfeed?
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snarfed and even then, those designs would probably de-dupe and unify multiple wms from bridgy, so it may become a non-issue. we'll see
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KartikPrabhu or do bridgy users expect different?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: it wasn't intentional. i just hadn't implemented support for multiple previous tweets in a chain
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KartikPrabhu seems like a catch-22 to me
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KartikPrabhu designing reliable reply-chain would need reliable backfeed
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KartikPrabhu i see. but why multiple then? is that something users expect?
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KartikPrabhu sorry if I am re-threading old discussion
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KartikPrabhu I have no idea how I would decide "this tweet actually replies to this post" if bridgy does not distinguish
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: good point. let me check something
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: so, when it sends each wm, it renders just one in-reply-to link that matches the target url for that wm…but that still doesn't help you
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KartikPrabhu yeah that is the problem
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KartikPrabhu i can see it is the same tweet from the u-url, but how do I know which in-reply-to was the actual one?
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snarfed right
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snarfed the simplest solution is to only send one wm, to the direct in-reply-to
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snarfed the problem is, if i switch to that right now, backfeed for existing users who posse reply chains will be fragmented across the replies' original posts
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KartikPrabhu yes. but only if bridgy users expect it (and twitter users mean that)
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snarfed as opposed to showing the full chain on every post
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: agreed
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snarfed how about this. if/when you start looking at doing this on your own site, i can special case bridgy to only send you the direct reply wms, and we can see where we end up
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KartikPrabhu got yourself in a pickle there
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: cool will let you know. will require a lot of work on my end before that can happen :)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: understood. thanks for thinking it through with me!
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KartikPrabhu sure thing!
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aaronpk Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 279 karma
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: in general i think the pushback against jquery is in case you want to split your code out into a reusable library that doesn't have a transitive dependency on jq. for me it's just a fun exercise in minimalism
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: nice
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kylewm snarfed: I'm getting a "The connection was interrupted" connecting to https://brid.gy/ ... just me?
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KartikPrabhu hi JonathanNeal
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snarfed kylewm: ah. it doesn't serve ssl on the naked domain. you want either https://brid.gy/ or https://brid.gy/
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kylewm http://brid.gy or https://www.brid.gy ?
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snarfed huh. i wrote those links right, but they came out wrong
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kylewm oh that's weird!
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snarfed https://brid.gy/ or https://brid.gy/
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snarfed whoa. my irc client is doing something weird
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snarfed https://www.brid.gy/ or http://brid.gy/
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snarfed that worked
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gRegor` Thanks, Clippy
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snarfed silly
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gRegor` "Did you mean https://brid.gy/?"
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snarfed gRegor`: :P
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: this is what we call IRC tag?
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kylewm testing twitter profile "heads up: @-replies, favorites, and RTs are backfed to my personal site thanks to http://Brid.gy"
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: hah!
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JonathanNeal How is fragmention stuff going, or marginalia, or what are you working on these days?
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gRegor` snarfed: Since they redirect anyway, might want to change the links in the documentation, like http://brid.gy/publish/facebook to https://brid.gy/publish/facebook
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: have been busy with science things... not much indieweb stuff going on currently
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JonathanNeal Science is good too.
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snarfed gRegor`: good call, will do
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: true. once I an bit free I want to look into this n-th instance problem with fragmention.js
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JonathanNeal It’s really important that IndieWeb social has success soon. The more I read about the current centralized, crop-shared version of online interaction, the more I grow concerned about its negative impact on society and the web.
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kylewm gRegor`: need a www. in the second URL don't you?
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gRegor` Er, yeah
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JonathanNeal Not that you’re behind that, but I’m very provoked by the information folks are sharing and gathering about how well built well intentioned algorithms are sabotaging people.
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kylewm JonathanNeal++
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Loqi JonathanNeal has 14 karma
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JonathanNeal To backup my concerns for society and the web: http://www.wired.com/2014/08/i-liked-everything-i-saw-on-facebook-for-two-days-heres-what-it-did-to-me/ http://dcurt.is/facebooks-predicament
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: agreed! but the current trend seems to be to complain about current silos for being meanies and then wish for better silos to come about
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: yes, but this collection of data is important. It prevents us from villianizing Facebook or its employees. Instead, we see that any centralized advertisement model will do this naturally. In fact, their developers are forced to actively work against it. I’m reminded of the “she invented” fiasco.
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JonathanNeal http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-05-24-n36.html
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JonathanNeal If you’re trying to create a service that rewards all this pattern matching, you can’t account for every person’s experience, but (at this time) you must move forward to create relevant matches anyway in order to allow for more effective advertising. As a result, crap happens:
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JonathanNeal http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444165804578008740578200224
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: A more sinister angle to algorithmic personalisation: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gilad-lotan/israel-gaza-war-social-networks-data_b_5658557.html
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JonathanNeal I feel dumb pretending to make this conclusion, but a federated system would better serve humans. An indieweb system allows individuals to retain much greater control over their experience.
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KartikPrabhu but people seem to want a recommendation engine. How will I know which links are good
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KartikPrabhu does anyone know of a site that does UI/UX for good reply-chaining but also includes all replies to original post?
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cuibonobo how about how gawker does it: http://gawker.com/dear-douchebag-bike-thief-you-messed-with-the-wrong-cy-1619485318
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cuibonobo i.e. replies to the original post are shown inline, but each comment also has UI that shows the number of replies *under* a top-level comment
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: looks good. do you know if replies to a reply to a reply just don't happen?
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: i was actually just looking for one now. the UI is there for you to be able to reply to child comments, but i'm not sure how widely used that is
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KartikPrabhu yeah. it seems the comment UI itself somehow discourages n-th level replies. But would be harder to control that on the indieweb
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tantek.com created /irc/today (+24) "r - let's see if this works" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People (+305) "subheads, add timezone name aliases section at bottom, switch myself to US/Pacific per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones" (view diff)
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aaronpk what's the irc/today redirect for?
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tantek so we can link to [[irc/today]] on the wiki
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aaronpk oh weird
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tantek KartikPrabhu: America/Chicago does not actually imply the person lives in the city named "Chicago"
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tantek (in the context of timezone names)
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KartikPrabhu yeah realised that later :P
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aaronpk worth replacing all timezone refs to the US/* aliases?
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tantek aaronpk - let's let each person do it for themselves
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@soycamo @glassresistor indieauth? I missed the session on this (twitter.com/_/status/498924487040311297)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IRC_People (-9) "update my timezone to US alias" (view diff)
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tantek if you see any which aren't valid tzdatabase names then add them to the aliases section! indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People#Timezone_Aliases
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jenmontes.com edited /IRC_People (-6) "/* Nicknames */ Timezone whatever whatever" (view diff)
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tantek lurkers gonna lurk ;)
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aaronpk :)
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: the gawker solution for threaded comments still isn't ideal. they could do a better job of distinguishing top-level comments from their children
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: agreed
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tantek cuibonobo: gawker has a solution for something? ;)
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cuibonobo tantek: we were looking for examples of sites that show threaded comments while still showing top-level ones
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tantek KartikPrabhu: re: site that does UI/UX for good reply-chaining but also includes all replies to original post? - FB events I find do a good job of this.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hmm will dig up old fb events
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tantek KartikPrabhu: check out some of the past FB POSSE events for HWC SF
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tantek those are public too so you can cite them etc.
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tantek as examples
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tantek like maybe add to / expand this: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-presentation#Facebook
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cuibonobo tantek: seems like those only go 2 levels deep? as in, a top-level comment to the event has the same UI as a status update in the news feed, and then the second level is comments to *those* comments
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tantek cuibonobo: yes that's correct. It feels like there has been some sort of deliberate UX/usability convergence on 2 levels deep
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People (+278) "add note about city name does not imply residence, hint/nudge to use "US/" tz names for US folks" (view diff)
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cuibonobo can we know that it's really about usability? maybe it's just a hard problem :D
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cuibonobo reddit is ugly but gaining popularity
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tantek cuibonobo: it *is* a hard problem yes. I'm in general pretty impressed by FB's tradeoffs on usability (with very few notable exceptions)
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tantek is reddit gaining popularity or is the demographic of teenage boys simply growing over time?
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kylewm.com edited /IRC_People (-11) "/* Nicknames */ change my tz to US/Pacific" (view diff)
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cuibonobo i'd rather not make blanket statements about their demographics, but google trends does show a larger search interest for "reddit"
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tantek cuibonobo: I'll see if I can find a citation for reddit demographics - I do know it's been written up in the past, specifically correlated with the hostility / immaturity to both women and GLBT.
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tantek some of which has been firsthand experienced by people in this community, e.g. crystal_
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tantek (reddit comments on her blog posts)
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KartikPrabhu stays away from reddit and such "aggregator" sites... much foul
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cuibonobo i think reddit is as reviled as it is powerful :)
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tantek cuibonobo: is it powerful? I haven't seen the impacts in that way in particular.
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tantek for me it's reviled purely because of the toxicity density
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KartikPrabhu it is powerful in the sense of "social media bullying" at which twitter-verse is getting better now
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rascul i find reddit to be a cesspool and i try to stay far away from it
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tantek hmm, perhaps we have enough material to start http://indiewebcamp.com/Reddit
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tantek does anyone here POSSE to Reddit?
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cuibonobo powerful as a curatorial tool and as a way to direct internet traffic
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rascul i do read a lot of hackernews though
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tantek ok cuibonobo since you have the positive statement, want to start /Reddit ? and then others can add criticisms/citations as deemed fit.
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cuibonobo the "problem" is that it's full of young dudes at the moment, but young dudes need outlets as well :)
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tantek.com created /hackernews (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Hackernews (+25) "r" (view diff)
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cuibonobo tantek: i only visit the front page and the gifs subreddit, so i'm sure there are better people for the task
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cuibonobo but i'll take a stab at it
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tantek cuibonobo: that sounds like a good start actually.
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tantek especially since you've found a positive way to make use of it - that itself is valuable to document/capture.
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tantek what is hackernews?
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Loqi Hacker News is a link aggregator as well as a silo for comments on those links http://indiewebcamp.com/hackernews
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tantek is thinking of updating our /Template:irc_user to include image links
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tantek similar to the sparkline templates we have
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rascul ooo two months to cambridge!
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aaronpk wow
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tantek less than one month to UK!
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rascul hrm i'm confused, /2014/Cambridge says MIT, /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List says harvard
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rascul also i counted 12 people but it says 10
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tantek.com edited /Template:irc_user (+19) "try adding a fourth parameter for image and see if anything breaks" (view diff)
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tantek rascul - sounds like some DRY violation data drift ;)
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tantek.com edited /Template:sparkline (+7) "empty alt in case src is missing" (view diff)
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rascul i think all the cambridge stuff used to be on one page, then i think someone split it up into several pages
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rascul that's maybe why there's a mixup
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tantek in such situations you can almost always assign an order to the reliability of the data, and then fix accordingly
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tantek.com edited /Template:irc_user (-6) "try using sparkline subtemplate and see if anything breaks" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:t (+1) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:t (-1) "-" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People (+27) "add image to my entry" (view diff)
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tantek it worked!
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kylewm.com created /User:Kylewm.com/irc-people (+6367) "Created page with "A list of [[IRC]] regulars, sorted by nick, and their usual timezones. Note: the name of a city does not imply that someone lives there. It's from the [https://en.wikipedia.org/..."" (view diff)
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tantek ok folks, simply add a fourth parameter of a URL to your avatar image (jpg etc) to your entry on /irc-people and you'll get a nice face before yourself in the list
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cuibonobo aaaw. lookit that tiny tantek head :3
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tantek lol. a bunch of us have created little shorthand templates for ourselves for easily adding face+name to RSVPs on events etc, e.g.: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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rascul.io edited /IRC_People (+35) "/* Nicknames */ add my avatar" (view diff)
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tantek so I simply built upon that technique
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rascul oh yeah i have my own fancy template thing too
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tantek and if this works well, I have a feeling aaronpk may add the avatars to the IRC logs as well
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tantek sweet - the images made it into the parsed microformats! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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rascul what are thoughts on adjusting post date/times via client side js to the timezone of the user browsing the site?
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kylewm.com edited /IRC_People (+47) "add my avatar" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IRC/logs (+120) "dfn, summary, heading level fix, TOC, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /IRC_logs (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /irc_logs (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /irc-logs (+22) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /IRC_People (+40) "/* Nicknames */ avatar + tz change to US/Central for disambig" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /IRC_People (+0) "/* Nicknames */ tz" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+35) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek welcome back barnabywalters !
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:sparkline (+69) "Add link to documentation sub-page" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: thanks! I was making food
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tantek we've been doing some /irc-people tweaking
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tantek take a look when you have a moment
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jenmontes.com created /Reddit (+972) "Initial post" (view diff)
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barnabywalters very nice
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barnabywalters I love how those tiny profile photos look on retina screens
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gregorlove.com created /Template:sparkline/doc (+267) "beginning of doc" (view diff)
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barnabywalters why are the mini profiles called sparklines?
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gRegor` I was about to ask the origin of sparkline, actually
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barnabywalters I supposed they fit the definition, but not the conventional usage
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tantek is on it
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aaronpk I thought sparklines were mini graphs
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cuibonobo yeah that's what i thought too
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tantek that's a common misconception
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barnabywalters aaronpk: really the point is not the mininess but the fact that they’re seamlessly inline with the text
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tantek they're not just graphs
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aaronpk oh is it just anything that's inline?
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tantek said he is on it!
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aaronpk waits patiently
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barnabywalters aaronpk: informational graphics in-flow with text
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barnabywalters and a profile photo is one sort of informational graphic
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cuibonobo i've got that tufte book, beautiful evidence.
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barnabywalters but the actual name breaks down a little bit once you move outside the little line charts :)
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cuibonobo haha yes. i think that's what caused the reaction
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:sparkline/doc (-18) "correcting description" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+208) "/* Blank Template */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+83) "/* Parameters */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters over the weekend, shrewdness got search, improved styling and (via activitystreams-unofficial) subscription to as-yet-unindiewebified people I follow on twitter
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aaronpk wow
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barnabywalters so it’s now completely replaced twitter.com for me with minimal loss of functionality
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barnabywalters and in some cases better functionality (e.g. faceted search, archiving of all tweets in my timeline)
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barnabywalters just writing a bunch of brainstorming onto the wiki to prioritise next moves
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tantek.com created /sparkline (+940) "draft" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /sparklines (+23) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+241) "/* Example */" (view diff)
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tantek what is a sparkline?
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Loqi A sparkline is a small intense, simple, graphic with typographic resolution http://indiewebcamp.com/sparkline
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aaronpk what does "intense" mean in this context?
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cuibonobo lol. i was about to ask the same thing
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tantek you'll have to ask tufte :)
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barnabywalters I always interpreted it as high information density
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tantek oh I think he means "dense" in that context
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barnabywalters e.g. the saturn examples cram a huge amount of information and comparison potential into a tiny space
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aaronpk http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001OR
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aaronpk "A sparkline is a small intense, simple, word-sized graphic with typographic resolution. Sparklines mean that graphics are no longer cartoonish special occasions with captions and boxes, but rather sparkline graphic can be everywhere a word or number can be"
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tantek he uses "intense resolutions" in the description
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tantek aaronpk - yes our page links to that :)
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cuibonobo aha, tufte says "data-intense", which supports barnabywalters's definition
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tantek cuibonobo: he also says "intense resolutions"
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tantek I think he means both
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gRegor` I was going to add an example to http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:sparkline for setting up the signature templates several of us are using, but maybe I should just make a signature template?
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barnabywalters it could also refer to the speed at which it can be, or was intended to be taken in — i.e. the graphic is being used as if it was a word which perfectly expressed what the graphic was about
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gRegor` Drop in the name, photo URL, and link and it sets it up, no messing with HTML to make the h-card
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tantek.com edited /sparkline (+3) "data dense instead of intense, since "typographic resolution" already covers "high/dense resolution"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /sparkline (+56) "inline-ness is pretty essential, as is with relevant text" (view diff)
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tantek gRegor`: people are pretty good at copy/pasting from others' examples in a page
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jenmontes.com edited /sparkline (-1) "Stray comma" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /sparkline (+41) (view diff)
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barnabywalters IIRC blocking was discussed here a little while ago, but /block is empty — was it solidified into a wiki page?
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kylewm barnabywalters: /mute perhaps?
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barnabywalters kylewm: perfect, thanks — redirecting
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waterpigs.co.uk created /block (+17) "redirect" (view diff)
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gRegor` I'll leave it as is. I don't think I want to get into all the explanation of setting up the template page itself
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tantek whoa block != mute!
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gRegor` /mute and /block should be individual pages
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tantek that's a pretty big deal
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tantek barnabywalters, kylewm did you not see the huge flareup on Twitter about this a few months ago?
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gRegor` Tweetbot can be listed as an example of mute. many seem to love it for that feature.
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barnabywalters tantek: I am well aware of Twitter’s inadequacies, not so much the differences between block and mute
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gRegor` mute doesn't unfollow.
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tantek barnabywalters: the qualitative differences between block and mute *are* the key source of Twitter’s inadequacies in this context
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gRegor` Just hides the statuses temporarily.
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aaronpk they're completely different! if I mute someone, I just stop seeing things from them. if I block them, I expect that they no longer see my stuff
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barnabywalters that is not adequately expressed by /mute
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tantek you can't really be "**well** aware of Twitter’s inadequacies" without that understanding
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tantek aaronpk - it is much more than that!
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tantek the best example of block (by any silo) so far is Flickr's implementation
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barnabywalters tantek: then please stub /block with explanations of the differences
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tantek https://www.flickr.com/help/contacts/?search=blocking#96
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gRegor` Tweetbot also allows muting by source. So if you don't want to see instagram tweets (likely you already follow them on instagram...), it will silence those.
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tantek Twitter's inability to grok this, and failure to understand "block" to the extent Flickr does, is why people are pissed at Twitter about this
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aaronpk flickr did so many things right
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gRegor` Twitter added native mute this year? Is it web only?
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gRegor` I've not noticed it in the Android app
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /block (+232) "unredirected, stubbed with dfn" (view diff)
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gRegor` Ah, found it.
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tantek gRegor`: it's in the iOS app at least, same place you can turn off retweets from someone
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gRegor` That's a different feature than I meant. They've had that for a while.
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barnabywalters tantek: stubbed an improved definition (you’re right, /mute does actually specify hiding without unfollowing or any other implications), please expand and clarify
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gRegor` But I see if I go to a profile and click the gear "Mute @username" is an option
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barnabywalters my bad for not reading /mute properly
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gRegor` I didn't realize they'd added that.
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tantek a few months ago?
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gRegor` Don't mind me. I misread you, tantek.
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cuibonobo regarding nested comments, i found a really crazy example: http://www.debiki.com/demo/-71cs1/demo-page-1
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cuibonobo though i must admit that the little map on the upper right tickles me
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: 2-d scrolling nooooooooooo
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: oh wow that’s so cool! I totally had this idea years ago and dismissed it as pointless and tricky to build :)
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: tricky to use... build maybe not
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kylewm whoa, it scrolls faster if you drag the background left or right
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: yeah 2D scrolling is a pain, especially on a desktop. but worse is the feeling of disorientation, which i think is why i like that map so much
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cuibonobo kylewm: good catch! i hadn't noticed that
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: also the whole 2-d thing is only on the first-level. After that they go back to forum style indent. Proves that this isn't scalable
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KartikPrabhu s/Proves/shows
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: cuibonobo: also the whole 2-d thing is only on the first-level. After that they go back to forum style indent. shows that this isn't scalable
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: yeah we clearly need 3D scrolling
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KartikPrabhu scrollception!
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barnabywalters usually at this point I would suggest aaronpk add a new feature to Loqi (saying BOOOONNNNGGGG when someone says *ception) but given the conversation in #indiechat it’s probably not such a good idea ;)
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: I was going to type that but stopped short
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tantek.com edited /block (+1193) "expand definition, silo examples, see also" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: barnabywalters kylewm: given that, that UI switches to forum-style anyway, do you think that the 2-d thing only on the first level is useful nonetheless?
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barnabywalters tantek: thanks for that — even having a stub there prevents idiots like me absent-mindedly throwing a redirect in there
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@cbeams Why I Host From Home: http://chris.beams.io/18992688/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/498950350318338049)
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gRegor` Hah, that 2d scrolling is pretty cool. The map is awesome.
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tantek barnabywalters: want to find references to Facebook and Twitter's documentation of their "block" features and add to /block ?
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barnabywalters hopefully I can find some which are not themselves on twitter
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barnabywalters oh sorry, misread again
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: want to add these cool UI examples you found as links to /reply-chain? (he says is his tantek voice) ;)
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gRegor` lulz
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bear barnabywalters - this? https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1.1/post/blocks/create
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gregorlove.com edited /mute (+12) "/* See Also */ +block" (view diff)
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barnabywalters sign @ “(unless retweeted by another user)” — this is dumb, twitter
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barnabywalters bear: thanks, I’d rather find user-facing documentation but that’s good reference too
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bear ah - user docs
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bear https://support.twitter.com/articles/117063-blocking-users-on-twitter
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bear and https://support.twitter.com/articles/15794-online-abuse
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barnabywalters bear: interestingly, the user-facing docs don’t mention the caveat about retweets
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bear yea, twitter views blocking as one direction only
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tantek bear - block is fundamentally a unidirectional user-action taken by one user against another
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gRegor` Guess they should have a "turn off retweets OF @username" and do that automatically when blocking.
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tantek wow - others can retweet people to you that you've blocked?!?
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gRegor` Based on the API doc, yeah
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barnabywalters really the result should be “hide @username EVERYWHERE across ALL twitter UIs”
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gRegor` https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1.1/post/blocks/create
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barnabywalters tantek: yeah, and it’s barely documented, which (apart from being stupid) has resulted in a lot of the anger
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tantek amazing
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bear it's a huge abuse related issue that twitter has never answered properly
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /block (+967) "Added references+quotes and criticism of Twitter’s blocking" (view diff)
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gRegor` barnabywalters beat me to the edit :)
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gregorlove.com edited /follow (+11) "dfn" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /following (+20) "Redirected page to [[follow]]" (view diff)
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jenmontes.com uploaded /File:debiki-comment-system.png "2D threaded comment view."
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kylewm correct me if i'm wrong, isn't part of the issue with blocking that blocked users can tell that they're blocked?
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kylewm blocking on Twitter*
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gRegor` I've not heard that complaint. I've heard the complaint that the blocked person can still @reply you, even if it doesn't show up in your tiimeline, which can show up in searches
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barnabywalters wow, Facebook’s documentation seems pretty good https://www.facebook.com/help/748040478549007/
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barnabywalters other than not actually detailing what exactly happens when you block someone
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jenmontes.com edited /reply-chain (+198) "Adding 2D threaded comment example" (view diff)
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gRegor` and that they can still read your tweets, unless you go private.
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cuibonobo can someone please fix the image i'm trying to add to /reply-chain ?
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cuibonobo my wiki-fu sucks
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gRegor` Sure
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`s is better than mine
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gRegor` It's File:
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cuibonobo gRegor`: i tried File at first but it still wasn't working, so i copied from a page that had a working image, but still no dice
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cuibonobo is it case-sensitive? maybe that's it
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /block (+394) "Documented facebook’s blocking" (view diff)
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gRegor` yeah
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cuibonobo aha. ok
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kylewm.com edited /reply-chain (-1) "/* FOSS */ remove Image: prefix from image embed" (view diff)
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kylewm gRegor`: oops sorry if I stepped on your toes
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gRegor` No worries
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: thanks! that is a unique example... hopefully someone does better for indieweb chaining :P
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gRegor` My mostly foolproof method when uploading images is to edit the page where I want the image, use the image button which fills in the wiki syntax for File:, set the filename I intend to upload, and save the page. Then click the link it will create and it will prompt you to upload the file.
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Loqi gives gRegor` the image
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gRegor` Thanks, Loqi
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gRegor` hopes that explanation made sense.
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cuibonobo gRegor`: it did! thank you
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gRegor` The wiki filename does not need to match your local filename, btw.
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gRegor` Just as long as it's the same filetype: jpg, png, etc.
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Denton had to back out this week. Margot RSVPed on Facebook, though.
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gRegor` His home is under repair and he's going to be staying in NW Indiana this week, heh
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yeah saw his un-rsvp ... cool at least we'll have 3 people :P
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@gregturn RT @cbeams: Why I Host From Home: http://chris.beams.io/18992688/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/498961197270859776)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Shrewdness (+3793) "Added a bunch of brainstorming on focus-enhancing UI, column based UI, links to other brainstorming" (view diff)
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rascul must consider with hosting at home the contract you sign with your isp, that sorta thing might not be allowed
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aaronpk actually it mostly is, just often making money/ selling stuff is not
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Shrewdness (-45) "/* Focus-enhancing */" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Shrewdness (+3) "/* Column-based */" (view diff)
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rascul aaronpk comcast doesn't seem to allow it but it's hard for me to dig through http://www.comcast.com/policies and find which specifically applies to me
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aaronpk i heard comcast was one that actually doesn't prohibit it
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Shrewdness (+59) "Linked to feed testing UI" (view diff)
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GWG Evening
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rascul aaronpk interesting
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rascul GWG hi
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GWG Hi, rascul
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GWG What's going on around here?
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aaronpk it's not in the list of prohibited actions http://www.comcast.com/Corporate/Customers/Policies/HighSpeedInternetAUP.html
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cuibonobo re: comcast policies, if you look here: http://www.comcast.com/Corporate/Customers/Policies/HighSpeedInternetAUP.html
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cuibonobo under section I. Prohibited Uses and Activities
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cuibonobo "use or run dedicated, stand-alone equipment or servers from the Premises that provide network
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cuibonobo content or any other services to anyone outside of your Premises local area network (“Premises
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cuibonobo LAN”), also commonly referred to as public services or servers. Examples of prohibited
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cuibonobo equipment and servers include, but are not limited to, email, web hosting, file sharing, and proxy
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cuibonobo services and servers;"
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aaronpk oh huh
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rascul technical #5
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rascul yeah that one
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cuibonobo and unfortunately, for many people it's Comcast or Nothing™
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rascul for me it's comcast or almost nothing
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tantek What is Comcast?
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tantek oh darn cuibonobo left
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finchd tantek: major ISP in the Western US