2014-08-25 UTC
# 00:01 GWG I'm still trying to figure out something.
# 00:02 GWG If I set up a script that allows someone to fill out a text box that will send a push notification to my cell phone, will I quickly become enraged and/or annoyed and take it off?
# 00:02 snarfed GWG: just for support and solidarity, i'm still happy on WP, no plans to switch to anything else. i don't count my indierank, but i'm sure it's pretty high up there
# 00:02 snarfed (and the vast majority of bridgy users are on WP too)
# 00:04 GWG snarfed: I know. I started getting sad when willnorris left.
# 00:04 gRegor` Seems like it would be ripe for spam, GWG. But maybe worth a try?
# 00:04 GWG gRegor`: Wouldn't giving my AIM name do that as well?
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# 00:05 GWG Assuming someone other than tantek still has that up
# 00:05 gRegor` Sure, but do you have AIM PUSH to your phone?
# 00:05 GWG I would be doing a semi-custom solution
# 00:05 gRegor` AIM spam would be much less of a nuisance, then, IMO.
# 00:05 GWG I suppose I could set up an XMPP system
# 00:05 gRegor` I get AIM spam every now and then. I think it's because their db has been compromised at least once
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# 00:06 gRegor` Plus I've had the AIM screenname so long, it's bound to have gotten out there.
# 00:07 snarfed GWG: i actually doubt you'd get much (any) spam. spammers only target systems with really big installed bases - email, aim, wordpress. unique forms like yours aren't worth their time to go discover and understand
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# 00:08 gRegor` Github changed their notification icon to a little inbox document tray. I like it.
# 00:08 gRegor` OMG, Double Kartik! What does it mean?? :)
# 00:10 GWG If I build it, will you all help me test it?
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# 00:14 cuibonobo my nick is registered on freenode but it didn't complain?
# 00:15 GWG I doubt it will, but it should not allow existing names
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# 00:25 gRegor` So that's problematic :)
# 00:32 KevinMarks GWG scoble has had his phone number on his site for ages, he says he rarely gets spam from it
# 00:33 GWG Kevinmarks: I've never had the pleasure of meeting Robert Scoble, but considering his notoriety, I'd imagine he is a target for attention
# 00:34 GWG Wordpress site using the default theme
# 00:35 GWG Kevinmarks: Also, it is sort of hiding
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# 00:43 bret_beta this is crazy
# 00:46 GWG Kevinmarks: You think I should call him and ask his advice?
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# 00:55 bret its my impression a lot of people dont care what they are using
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# 01:01 kylewm bret: or they get more readers and engagement on social media
# 01:02 GWG kylewm: What's the point of speaking if no one is listening?
# 01:10 bret i started a website as a way to take notes on things I was learning
# 01:10 bret that goal quicky falls by the wayside as I just want to learn more, rather than write about it
# 01:12 GWG bret: That is where the indieweb all falls down
# 01:13 GWG You can't build a community based on sharing if no one is sharing
# 01:13 GWG Admittedly, I kick myself for not expressing my thoughts more often
# 01:13 GWG Note to self...write a post tonight
# 01:14 GWG bret: I'm thinking of writing about my geeky communications methods
# 01:17 GWG bret: I've been working on improvements to my theme since June
# 01:17 GWG But I just learned about transients...and am thinking of going back
# 01:22 kylewm scoble's love for Facebook seems so misplaced though. I don't get any tech news there, don't think I know anyone who does
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# 02:25 aaronpk nickserv lets me stay connected as a registered user way longer than I would have thought
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# 02:58 KevinBBQ Is there a nick length limit?
# 02:58 KevinBBQ I'm on the edge of connectivity here in the garden
# 02:58 KevinBBQ It didn't seem to like kevinmarksbbq as a nick
# 02:59 KevinBBQ Ah, ok. I got a b
# 03:00 KevinBBQ s/b/nickserv alert I couldn't dismiss/
# 03:00 Loqi KevinBBQ meant to say: Ah, ok. I got a nickserv alert I couldn't dismiss
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# 03:02 aaronpk sorry KevinBBQ you're gonna get disconnected a bunch
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# 03:05 KevinMarks_ Yes I'm bbqing. Last night I went to the fancy supermarket and bought organic chicken thighs. I said "give me 6 " expecting 1-2lb
# 03:05 GWG KevinMarks_: Try Costco. Then you expect that many
# 03:06 KevinMarks_ So I had 3 left over which I marinated in yogurt and tandoori sauce overnight, and I'm cooking them now
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# 03:14 aaronpk ok well now if nickserv sends notices you'll see them on the web client
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# 03:25 GWG aaronpk: Does that prevent impersonation?
# 03:26 aaronpk I thought clients got kicked by nickserv if they don't identify in some amount of time, but that doesn't seem to be the case
# 03:27 GWG That is why I squat continuously.
# 03:29 aaronpk at least now the web client will show you when nickserv yells at you
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# 05:30 expandrew.com created /User:Expandrew.com (+474) "Created page with "== Andrew Westling == designer and aspiring web developer I have a degree in architecture and I like to think about connections between real world environments and the new land..."" (
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# 10:25 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 11:52 tantek !tell aaronpk for ?beta, perhaps 1) auto detect URLs in the join field and do /indieauth and then use their /irc-people nickname, and 2) block anyone joining using a name that's already listed in irc-people
# 11:52 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 14:09 Loqi aaronpk_: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 16 minutes ago: for ?beta, perhaps 1) auto detect URLs in the join field and do /indieauth and then use their /irc-people nickname, and 2) block anyone joining using a name that's already listed in irc-people
# 14:09 aaronpk_ This interface stil needs a little work to be usable on mobile
# 14:11 aaronpk_ Ben go to today's irc log and add ?beta to the URL then scroll to the bottom
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# 14:12 ben_thatmustbe oh NICE!
# 14:13 ben_thatmustbe well done sir
# 14:13 ben_thatmustbe immediately
# 14:13 ben_thatmustbe that was weird
# 14:13 ben_thatmustbe immediately
# 14:13 tantek ben_thatmustbe have you not seen the realtime updating logs before? that's so last week ;)
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# 14:16 tantek I don't know of any mobile IRC clients that show faces
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# 14:17 tantek aaronpk - that's ok the page reloads when you go back to it
# 14:18 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: true, visible highlights in the logs of your name would be cool
# 14:18 aaronpk_ I'm planning on adding desktop notifications for mentions, I wonder what mobile browsers will do with those
# 14:18 tantek when joined (or even when not joined but maybe with a cookie)
# 14:19 tantek aaronpk - pretty sure Firefox on Android will send you notifications, also FxOS
# 14:19 tantek wow if you get that working I may have to start carrying my FxOS "phone" with me just as an IRC client.
# 14:20 aaronpk_ I am also extremely pleased I was able to do this entirely with native browser APIs, no JS libraries
# 14:22 aaronpk_ Looks like my connection stayed open when switching tabs within mobile safari, nice
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# 14:25 tantek I wonder when "indiewebcamp-irc-logs" becomes "indiewebcamp-irc-client" ;)
# 14:26 aaronpk_ It survived switching to the messages app and back, but did not persist after my phone went to blank screen
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# 15:04 tantek !tell caseorganic looksl like http://cyborgcamp.com/ is running WordPress and some IndieWeb plugins! Which plugins in particular? Is the cyborgcamp.com setup documented anywhere?
# 15:04 Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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# 15:16 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 15:17 tantek (even if not ideally marked up, should still be consumable)
# 15:17 barnabywalters tantek: shredness doesn’t need h-feed, look at the data in the test util — the markup is almost completely broken
# 15:19 barnabywalters AFAICT it’s built-in wordpress classic microformats support, which is rather incomplete
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# 15:19 barnabywalters yeah, IIRC it’s because wordpress splits the responsibility for inserting that markup between the back end core wordpress code and the theme author
# 15:20 tantek ah so that turned out to be a fragile approach
# 15:21 tantek somewhat related - should we *not* do implied p-name when doing backward compat parsing?
# 15:22 barnabywalters tantek: I suspect that would have more downsides that upsides, e.g. microformat objects with no names (currently impossible in mf2)
# 15:22 tantek snarfed, was wondering about that. do any of the indieweb WP plugins add proper h-entry markup (or repair hAtom / hentry markup) ?
# 15:23 snarfed tantek: yes! sempress and wordpress-uf2 are good and mature. there are also smaller semi-documented hacks. i think /WordPress already has the details
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# 15:36 aaronpk actually it was mostly caseorganic who set up cyborgcamp.com, I was just importing old posts from other past versions of the site
# 15:37 aaronpk she's using the P2 theme, so that would need an update to support h-entry
# 15:37 aaronpk the cool part of this site was that we didn't have to write any code at all, just installed wordpress, installed the IndieWeb and IndieAuth plugins and that's it
# 15:37 barnabywalters (aside: Loqi feature request: when !tells are left for more that one person, it would be great if Loqi said “X left you, Y and Z a message:”
# 15:38 jonnybarnes barnabywalters: when you favourite something on twitter, is that info on waterpigs.co.uk as well?
# 15:39 barnabywalters although now I’m using shrewdness all the time it’s higher up in my priority chain
# 15:39 aaronpk oh I guess the right way to do it is to make a child theme of P2
# 15:39 barnabywalters a little better, yes — my geocoding endpoint stopped working and I haven’t fixed it yet
# 15:39 aaronpk barnabywalters: what was your geocoding endpoint?
# 15:39 barnabywalters aaronpk: provide lat/long, get h-adr (or optionally only one property as plaintext) back
# 15:41 jonnybarnes I donlt know what to do for mine, currently I geolocate for lat lng values, then the place "name" is just a plain text entry
# 15:42 aaronpk I'm using the Esri reverse geocoding endpoint to find city name. I don't get more granular than that except for specific venues from instagram
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# 15:48 aaronpk poll: for posts that have a duration, like bike rides or sleeps, would you expect to see the date as the start or end time?
# 15:52 aaronpk in theory these posts are published at the end of the event
# 15:53 aaronpk but I need to pick a date for the permalink line, so I guess that should be the date it is published
# 15:53 aaronpk then I need to figure out where in the UI to put the start/end times for my bike rides
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# 15:58 aaronpk barnabywalters: not sure what the benefit of marking those up as h-event would be
# 15:59 barnabywalters aaronpk: when someone builds a mf2 event -> iCal tool it’d allow you to visualise your sleep data in any calendaring app
# 16:00 barnabywalters or how about iCal -> micropub? post events to your site using any calendaring app
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# 16:01 aaronpk I couldn't find the source code for P2, but I am also not very familiar with wordpress dev stuff
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# 16:03 aaronpk it's all pretty slick now, you can install stuff right from the admin panel
# 16:04 aaronpk I don't think this is true anymore "By default, the administrative user created during Wordpress installation is username 'admin'. "
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# 16:07 barnabywalters_f so if the WebIDE FxOS simulator is accurate, this also works from FxOS devices
# 16:09 barnabywalters_f it’d be cool if there’s some API allowing text inputs to add suggestions to the FxOS autosuggest bar
# 16:09 barnabywalters_f e.g. in this client it could add all of the present usernames
# 16:10 barnabywalters_f maybe datalist is the best way of going about that?
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# 16:10 barnabywalters_f it would make up for (and indeed improve on) the lack of a tab key
# 16:11 barnabywalters_f tantek_: even better!
# 16:11 aaronpk from irc-people is way easier than from the actual list of people in IRC, I could see doing that
# 16:11 tantek_ so you could !tell someone tabcomplete even when they were not in the channel!
# 16:11 barnabywalters_f tantek_: who do we have to bug at mozilla to make this happen?
# 16:11 aaronpk although I've never done tab-complete stuff in JS before
# 16:11 tantek_ aaronpk, what did you think of my suggestion to hookup indieauth to the "join" box?
# 16:12 aaronpk tantek: I do like the idea of signing in with IndieAuth
# 16:12 tantek.com edited /P2 (-1) "/* missing microformats support */ WP core provides *hentry* - not yet microformats2 h-entry" (
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# 16:14 aaronparecki.com edited /WordPress (+251) "/* Security and Spam Protection */ remove note about default account being "admin" since now the installer prompts you to create an account. add references to IndieAuth and IndieWeb plugins" (
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# 16:16 tantek aaronpk - was not advocating it being the only option, just *an* option - e.g. autodetect a URL and use indieauth on it
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# 16:17 aaronpk tantek: yeah seems cool, I guess what is the actual benefit though?
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# 16:17 tantek aaronpk, actual benefit is the part 2 of what I wrote earlier
# 16:17 jonnybarnes_beta and I type in here?
# 16:17 tantek block use of any nickname in the "join" button
# 16:17 Loqi tantek meant to say: block use of any irc-people nickname in the "join" button
# 16:18 aaronpk do you think that is going to be a significant problem?
# 16:18 jonnybarnes_beta people asking for tab-completion in this
# 16:18 tantek so if you're on /irc-people, you *must* login in with your indieauth domain name to use your nickname via the web UI
# 16:18 aaronpk I mean anyone can sign in to IRC using a real IRC client as anyone else
# 16:18 jonnybarnes_beta what happens to people using assistive technologies and use the tab button for navigation
# 16:18 tantek aaronpk - well it eliminates the impersonation problem that cuibonobo demonstrated
# 16:18 aaronpk so it's not like it actually prevents impersonation
# 16:18 tantek aaronpk - like most security, it's not a matter of absolute prevention
# 16:19 tantek having such a easy-to-use web-based IRC client will mean many more people will use it, (lower barrier), thus it's reasonable to provide that for /irc-people
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# 16:20 tantek jonnybarnes: it doesn't stop people from joining and using your nickname
# 16:20 aaronpk jonnybarnes: I was trying that out yesterday... I didn't actually get kicked by nickserv using someone else's nick
# 16:20 tantek as cuibonobo demonstrated yesterday with "tantek
# 16:20 tantek all nickserv helps you with is to boot them out when you join
# 16:20 barnabywalters yeah, I registered my nick then forgot the password, so now use it without identifying
# 16:21 tantek_com looks like nicknames can't contain periods
# 16:21 aaronpk I think nickserv will let you boot someone else off if you want
# 16:21 tantek_com no it's not
# 16:21 tantek_com hmm - looks like my web client is now half connected!
# 16:21 tantek_com I can post, but the log is not updating!
# 16:22 tantek_com half crashed?
# 16:22 aaronpk one for streaming the logs to viewers, and a separate one that only handles input from the web form
# 16:23 aaronpk ok restarted it and launched with a while true loop
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# 16:23 tantek_com so yeah the basic idea is, type your domain name into the Join box (e.g. tantek.com)
# 16:24 tantek_com do URL detection on it and then run it through indieauth flow
# 16:24 tantek_com assuming it authenticates, use it to look up nickname in /irc-people
# 16:24 tantek_com and use that nickname if found, if not, turn the periods in the domain name into _ and use that (like this)
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# 16:27 aaronpk haha, replace "_" with "." then run the autolinker on it?
# 16:27 tantek_com right. and then the h-card discovery / photo / logo use from the domain root becomes even more useful
# 16:27 tantek_com (the yet to be implemented that barnabywalters was asking for)
# 16:28 gRegor` You can enable nick protection with nickserv and it will auto-boot if your nick doesn't identify within 30 seconds
# 16:28 tantek all of a sudden the IRC web client becomes a good live example of how to consume indieauth and then show a person's avatar and link to their home page in a fully federated fashion.
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# 16:29 tantek perfect example for your next IndieAuth talk aaronpk
# 16:29 aaronpk tho that probably means I'm gonna implement h-card discovery into indieauth.com as part of the service it provides
# 16:30 aaronpk so when you verify an auth code with indieauth.com it returns not just the domain name but also the h-card
# 16:31 tantek_com I'm pretty excited about this web IRC client thing - means no more hassle with blocked ports e.g. at NYT
# 16:32 tantek_com hmm - looks like indieauth.com doesn't implement the fragmentions js
# 16:35 gRegor` aaronpk: It's a Nickserv command, so per-account
# 16:39 gRegor` what is Nickserv?
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# 16:43 tantek well I documented a page for P2 but contributing seems to require some sort of human dialog on a "forum" which I don't really feel like doing. I just want to contribute the minor patches needed to add microformats classes. I don't want to have a big web-based-forum discussion about it
# 16:45 KevinMarks_ Barnaby: I tried posting as both a status and a post, so manual duplication
# 16:46 barnabywalters KevinMarks_: ah okay, makes sense — there should still be a redirect in place really
# 16:46 tantek barnabywalters, aaronpk, caseorganic not sure what else I can do to help get cyborgcamp.com's markup parsable by microformats2 browsers. If you find a simple/easy way to submit patches / pull requests to P2, please add it to /P2 ! Thanks.
# 16:47 barnabywalters but if there’s a redirect or 410 shrewdness at least knows to do something about it
# 16:48 tantek aaronpk, re: bike rides / durations - do you ever pause/resume during those? e.g. on Nike+ when tracking runs, if you stop, it pauses, and then resumes when you start running again.
# 16:49 tantek re-using dt-start and dt-end from h-event makes sense - I'm just wondering about the pause/resume nature of fitness metrics in particular
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# 16:52 tantek so in that case do you track / have access to all the start/stop absolute times?
# 16:52 tantek or is that merely summarized in the "duration" meaning actual time-in-motion
# 16:52 tantek which might be *less* than dt-end minus dt-start !
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# 16:56 gRegor` Testing with my registered nick on the web chat
# 16:56 Guest25610 Got a popover from NickServ to identify, so that's good.
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# 17:09 tantek_com aaronpk++ for an amazingly usable #indiewebcamp web UI
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# 17:11 aaronpk actually /msg should work to other people too, I was trying it myself
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# 17:21 KevinMarks_ Or have more than one face+name style to show auth status, as classically done to show mods
# 17:22 KevinMarks_ Web UI could show msgs as web notifications, make it the browsers problem. Is there a notification pokyfill?
# 17:23 Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: Web UI could show msgs as web notifications, make it the browsers problem. Is there a notification polyfill?
# 17:23 aaronpk i don't want to have to store whether a message was written by an auth'd user in the logs
# 17:24 aaronpk especailly cause it's harder to tell if regular IRC users are authed
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# 17:46 aaronpk their own player still references the raw media on vimeo.com
# 17:46 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: seriously! calling every tracking code as spyware is kind of too much
# 17:47 ben_2 wonder what will happen if this is open at the midnight rollover
# 17:48 ben_2 gregor` it cuts off emotes
# 17:48 ben_2 losing all history?
# 17:48 ben_2 ?beta redirected to the actual day
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# 17:51 gRegor` definitely needs to set up queueing for sending webmentions.
# 17:51 gRegor` Even just one wm to brid.gy publish
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# 17:58 gRegor` Interesting, barnabywalters. I'll look into that more. I was working on setting up beanstalk, but I'm on Dreamhost (shared) and I'm not sure they permit running the daemon.
# 17:58 aaronpk I doubt you'll be able to run a background daemon on dreamhost
# 17:58 gRegor` The wiki seems to indicate that, though I had one running for at least a couple days. I forgot to check back since then
# 17:59 gRegor` Right, that's what I was thinking.
# 17:59 barnabywalters gRegor`: I’ve been using post-content “tasks” for ages now with no problems — just make sure to send a Content-length header if you’re using the response in an AJAX call
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# 18:10 emmak gRegor`: dreamhost also allows you to run cron jobs
# 18:10 gRegor` Yeah, I'm using cron for my incoming webmentions currently
# 18:10 KevinMarks_ the "browser refreshes on mobile" is true for ff and iOS safari, but not chrome android
# 18:11 gRegor` I might upgrade to VPS soon. I'd like to do more with queuing
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# 18:11 KevinMarks_ I switched back to yesterday's irc tab and today's updates started appearing
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# 18:15 tantek snarfed, cool. it wasn't clear that that plugin would work with P2
# 18:21 tantek.com edited /P2 (+865) "note workaround to lack of microformats support, and add FAQ with unanswered questions, indie web examples" (
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# 18:33 barnabywalters why doesn’t that page have a list of sites which support micropub? especially if we’re using it for evangelism now
# 18:40 tantek aaronpk, when did you launch micropub support on aaronparecki.com and for what post types?
# 18:41 tantek barnabywalters and KartikPrabhu you too when did you launch micropub support on aaronparecki.com and for what post types?
# 18:41 aaronpk wish there was a better way to search my git commits
# 18:44 aaronpk barnabywalters: `git log --grep=micropub` works great
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# 18:44 aaronpk I just google stuff and look for the stackoverflow answers. that usually works.
# 18:45 barnabywalters KevinMarks: did you get micropub posting to known working with benwerd’s new updates?
# 18:46 aaronpk really need to make a micropub plugin for wordpress
# 18:46 aaronpk who's up for that? my wordpress chops are not so good.
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# 18:51 KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: seems to work. would be good if Shrewdness showed my log in status on top...
# 18:52 barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: yay! yep, I need to figure out the best way of showing current user status as well as logout
# 18:52 barnabywalters part of that is figuring out how best to surface different spaces in the UI — I’m anticipating the user status UI to be in the same palce
# 18:53 Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: part of that is figuring out how best to surface different spaces in the UI — I’m anticipating the user status UI to be in the same place
# 18:54 KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: cool. I'll keep Shrewdness in mind next time I have to reply to a post.
# 18:54 barnabywalters aside: I’m really enjoying seeing posts from people I don’t follow (via other shrewdness users) in my search columns
# 18:57 KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: so if I subscribe to some site on Shrewdness it recommends it to you also?
# 18:57 barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: well not “recommends” as such, but the posts show up in everyone’s search columns
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# 19:06 aaronpk tantek: thoughts on moving the "clients" section to under the indieweb examples section?
# 19:11 tantek.com edited /micropub (+355) "move Client Apps section up (sorted alphabetically, feel free to pick another sort), and open source / implementations" (
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# 19:12 aaronpk nice trick preserving the #Implementations id. was going in to edit that to add it and saw yo ualready did :)
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# 19:23 tantek aaronpk I started trying to organize the spec-like bits into how to implement
# 19:23 tantek right now it seems the client app and server side pieces are mixed together a bit
# 19:23 aaronpk happy to see some other people jump in on that page too :)
# 19:24 tantek but I'm afraid I know too little to understand how to properly separate them
# 19:24 aaronpk oh you mean the "how to implement" has both client and server bits?
# 19:24 tantek e.g. in to "how to implement a client" and "how to implement an endpoint" sections instead of "how to implement"
# 19:25 aaronpk yeah this was originally written as a description of the whole thing
# 19:25 tantek aaronpk I'm enshrining you as editor of the spec
# 19:26 bret aaronpk I would be happy to meet up with you sometime to work on the micropub pages/spec
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# 19:29 tantek (replace the CC0 line I added with that - since you're the editor)
# 19:31 aaronpk I think it reads better with the "web apps and native apps..." section above the editor section, is that ok?
# 19:31 tantek yeah - cluster them into the same paragraph at the top with the dfn.
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# 19:47 tantek aaronpk: do you prefer Micropub to be capitalized? or lowercase micropub?
# 19:51 tantek also this way the TOC doesn't interfere with any of the How to implement code
# 19:51 tantek while the lists of sites/implementations are short/simple enough to not be disturbed by the TOC being next to them
# 19:53 tantek now you just have to split "how to implement" into "how to implement a client" and "how to implement an endpoint" :)
# 19:54 aaronpk hey not bad, less than 1 year from first edit to stub removed!
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# 20:01 tantek ok done tweaking /Micropub for now - great work on this aaronpk, looking forward to Wednesdays updates :)
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# 20:04 tantek aaronpk - is there an issue filed on Known to support Micropub?
# 20:05 aaronpk don't see one, but I thought he had made a note of that already
# 20:05 aaronpk !tell benwerd is there an open issue on Known to support Micropub? If not, I will gladly create one!
# 20:05 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 20:17 tantek oh hey - insecure "XML-RPC endpoint for updating the blog" which requires username/password.
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# 20:25 aaronpk xml-rpc doesn't really have anything to do with posse
# 20:26 KartikPrabhu "The server will look at the source of the page to discover the address of the XML-RPC endpoint for updating the blog."
# 20:26 aaronpk if anything, i'm reinventing XML-RPC but without the XML or the RPC, and with OAuth instead of username/password auth
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# 20:40 ben_thatmustbeme not sure i really want to order my domain through google. not sure what I'm getting myself in to honestly
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# 21:11 aaronpk KevinMarks_: my favorite quote from that: "Do your programming in a programming language. Don’t try to embed it in some crazy will-never-be-a-standard binding expression invented by a fly-by-night JavaScript framework."
# 21:21 KevinMarks_ Does polymer make this potentially better? Because it will build real dom?
# 21:25 jonnybarnes aaronpk: I donlt think a templating language is such a bad thing when built with something like PHP
# 21:28 cuibonobo a few months ago i underwent a comprehensive survey of JS frameworks in order to decide on one for a company project
# 21:29 cuibonobo they're so complicated that learning how they work is about as much work as learning a new programming language
# 21:30 cuibonobo APIs that needed hundreds of pages of docs to explain. just a mess.
# 21:30 aaronpk gRegor`: it's not clear from that post if processwire is actually just running PHP or re-interpreting PHP syntax
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# 21:31 aaronpk jonnybarnes: twig is another example of the problem
# 21:31 gRegor` re-interpreting PHP syntax?
# 21:32 aaronpk gRegor`: ok it looks like it's actually running PHP
# 21:32 tantek developer doesn't want to read to understand a programming language (or the DOM). developer creates a framework that requires reading hundreds of pages of docs to understand.
# 21:33 cuibonobo tantek: and it wasn't just one developer. there are scores of them :)
# 21:34 tantek though cassis.js tends to just get weird looks from other JS (or PHP) devs.
# 21:35 cuibonobo the docs aren't great, but you can read the entire body of code in 5 minutes so...
# 21:36 gRegor` aaronpk: Yeah, the framework is a lightweight way of accessing pages and fields within those pages, but when it comes to outputting them, it's just PHP. No abstractions built in to it.
# 21:36 gRegor` Or even just static HTML for a template, no PHP necessary. I like that flexibility.
# 21:36 aaronpk gRegor`: cool, yeah that's a senseible way to do it
# 21:36 KevinMarks_ Cassis.js is weird, though. It anticipated node.js by requiring you to think very hard while writing it
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# 21:39 KevinMarks_ (as cuibonobo has about mvc frameworks I mean, not about Cassis.js)
# 21:40 aaronpk I treat bootstrap as a better UI than the default browser styles. I don't usually go in and customize/theme bootstrap things
# 21:42 tantek because it's maybe 10x more bytes than is necessary for such functionality
# 21:42 benatkin responsive doesn't mean perfect adaptation to all common devices
# 21:43 aaronpk without bootstrap, indieauth.com would look super ugly, just saying
# 21:44 tantek aaronpk - ok, when I generalize my homepage HTML/CSS into something 1/10 the size of bootstrap but covering perhaps 80% of the actually useful/necessary technology, I'll let you know.
# 21:45 benatkin microsoft should have kept the electric blue in windows XP
# 21:46 benatkin now if they use it, in order to symboliize trust, people will think they're stealing it from facebook and twitter
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# 21:49 tantek GWG, snarfed, all you other WordPress fans, here's an example of why I dislike WordPress:
# 21:50 tantek "There are 7 comment(s) that have not been processed by Defensio." <-- I should never see something like this in a CMS/publishing UI
# 21:50 tantek (yeah I know it is a plugin - why is it bugging me in a giant yellow box?)
# 21:50 tantek "There might be a connectivity issue between you and Defensio. Your comments will automatically processed within the next 10 minutes, or when connectivity is restored."
# 21:55 KevinMarks I'm at the point with kevinmarks.com that I need to do some kind of templating
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# 21:59 tantek KevinMarks: could you rephrase "need to do some kind of templating" as the specific use-case you're trying to solve?
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# 22:02 KevinMarks I have a lot of static pages. I'd like to add some generic wrappers so they get css styles, fragmention.js and webmention support. In the spirit of "do it by hand until it hurts", using a templating pass would be good for this
# 22:06 KevinMarks maybe constructing a better hfeed page than doing it manually to follow
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# 22:07 rascul or you could be like me and write your own ;)
# 22:07 rascul just don't use mine, it's not ready for human consumption
# 22:08 KevinMarks a static site generator will peforce need some kind of templating
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# 23:24 GWG tantek, I don't think WordPress should be held responsible for a poorly designed third-party plugin
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# 23:35 ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: I know there was a lot of talk about changing the syntax, using css selectors etc
# 23:37 KartikPrabhu the one syntax based discussion here was to just use a # instead of ##
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# 23:42 GWG snarfed, for GCM. Bridgy could send notifications
# 23:43 GWG I remember aaronpk talking about a mentions app
# 23:44 snarfed GWG: ah, no, no plans like that. webmention recipients can choose whether/how to do that on their own. i was just impressed at GCM's traffic volume
# 23:44 GWG I have WordPress send it using a plugin.
# 23:45 GWG snarfed, now that it is open to general use, curious to see what people build
# 23:45 snarfed GWG: if you have the wordpress app, i think it can notify you on every new comment
# 23:46 snarfed (and afaik gcm has been open to general use since android launched. this just looks like new features.)
# 23:47 GWG snarfed, I was referring to the new features that are now open to general use
# 23:48 snarfed GWG: sure! you didn't need any of them to just send notifications though. :P regardless, good stuff.
# 23:49 GWG snarfed, I think I am aiming lower right now
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# 23:55 tantek is trying to save some open edits on wiki pages before the flight closes its doors.