#indiewebcamp 2014-09-17

2014-09-17 UTC
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+148) "/* Itches */ updated itches" (view diff)
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johnmorton kylewm: No luck yet. Thanks for the help. Try more after dinner :)
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kylewm !tell techlifeweb check out http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ftechlifeweb.com#fatal-errors I bet that unparseable character is what he was seeing
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@bsuneja What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://blogs.office.com/2014/09/16/mean-data-office-365-aim-raise-bar-visibility-control-organizations-data-office-365/ #MSExchange (twitter.com/_/status/512033827418832896)
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@MSFTExchange What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://blogs.office.com/2014/09/16/mean-data-office-365-aim-raise-bar-visibility-control-organizations-data-office-365/ #MSExchange (twitter.com/_/status/512035832388415488)
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@aristidem RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512040016475062272)
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@stevegoodman RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512040028907008001)
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parzzix Good evening everyone...
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parzzix Who has a self hosted known? How is it as far as customization, themes, and plugins?
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@stopthecyborgs The Fantasy and Abuse of the Manipulable User http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-fantasy-and-abuse-of-the-manipulable-user Something for #indieweb people - cultural not just technical (twitter.com/_/status/512043296177537025)
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@Krogsgard RT @zamoose: OH COME ON. https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ https://twitter.com/zamoose/status/511982208064978944/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/512044765844897792)
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@Krogsgard RT @jeremyfelt: WordPress is funded by me. RT @zamoose: OH COME ON. https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ https://twitter.com/zamoose/status/511982208064978944/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/512045018367148032)
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@PramTheMan RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512046643953557504)
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kylewm parzzix: looks like 11 plugins, 7 themes
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kylewm and an option to override/augment the css with the "Site Styles" plugin
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parzzix kylewm, thanks....I'm going to install on a droplet...trying to decide if know is the best choice.
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parzzix Was thinking red wind maybe
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parzzix i'm a bit indicisive
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kylewm red wind would probably only be fun for you if you wanted to hack on it
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kylewm it's in a constant state of flux...
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kylewm I would bet most everyone here can identify with your indecision though
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parzzix it would give me a reason to learn python..lol.. the main thing holdong me back on known is PHP
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kylewm I'm not trying to sell you on Known, but fwiw, it's pretty, well-structured PHP
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kylewm from what I can tell
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parzzix gotcha
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parzzix the wicki had allot of other options...to many to try to judge
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parzzix wiki even
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kylewm parzzix: have you gone down the rabbit hole of static site generators already?
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parzzix no I have not
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@chrisgoosen MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http:... (twitter.com/_/status/512050270293860352)
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kylewm I think we can probably cut the wiki/projects down to 3-4 more realistic options
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kylewm Known, Wordpress + plugins, Publify, Jekyll or other static generator + webmention.herokuapp
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parzzix hmmm...choices...Can wordpress cover everything?
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@cposner RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512050764605587456)
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@wp_cron IndieWeb advocates launch Known so bloggers can be social and still control their content http://wp-cron.com/2014/09/17/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ (twitter.com/_/status/512050941046951936)
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parzzix kylewm, checking out publify on github..seems demo site is down or buggered somehow
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kylewm hmm... well, neuro` posted a docker image recently that got it up and running on my machine in a few minutes
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parzzix really.... what is your sites addy? just to check it out
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kylewm ah sorry just a local machine
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parzzix ahhh
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kylewm http://t37.net/a-docker-image-to-test-publify-without-installing-it.html
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kylewm also, this worked http://demo.publify.co/admin
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@InsyncTech RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512052857973927937)
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@Agile_IT RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512052904006782976)
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parzzix I'm just creating a droplet and will install it..just to play
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parzzix love digitalocean
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parzzix kylewm, the more I look, known is the most well rounded option
paulcp, KevinMarks, Mark87, yobj, Aeyoun, rknLA, voxpelli_, Leeky, dietrich, mlinksva, benward___, DanToml, bigbluehat, jden, CaptainCalliope, protman, acegiak, leth, npdoty and b0bg0d_____ joined the channel
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@philip_arthur RT @zamoose: OH COME ON. https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ https://twitter.com/zamoose/status/511982208064978944/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/512067296982888448)
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@parzzix My Indieweb plans http://timapple.withknown.com/2014/my-indieweb-plans (twitter.com/_/status/512074372081659904)
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aaronpk just realized that because i'm using the pingback->webmention gateway this will be an interesting test to see if the expiring webmention endpoint cuts down on any pingback spam
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@rrikesh RT @jeremyfelt: WordPress is funded by me. RT @zamoose: OH COME ON. https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ https://twitter.com/zamoose/status/511982208064978944/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/512080818802806784)
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KartikPrabhu finally interwebs at home. back to indiewebbing. playing with Wordpress and WagTail http://www.mywifiext.net
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KartikPrabhu errr http://wagtail.io/
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GWG How is the Wordpress going?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: managed to have a local dev install with local copy/mod of SemPress in it
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GWG What was the goal?
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KartikPrabhu now to see if wagtail has better interface or to modify SemPress to be a artist portfolio+blog theme
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KartikPrabhu GWG: making portfolio type site for a friend and secretly indiewebbing it ;)
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GWG Oh
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KartikPrabhu my personal focus is to improve Bundle, but don't want to push that on others for now
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KartikPrabhu specially since it does not have any posting-interface to speak of
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@daviclif RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512097774704553985)
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KartikPrabhu is that MSFT cashing in on latest trending hastags or is there some substance? ^
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techlifeweb kylewm: thanks for the validtor link
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Loqi techlifeweb: kylewm left you a message 4 hours, 34 minutes ago: check out http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ftechlifeweb.com#fatal-errors I bet that unparseable character is what he was seeing
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aaronpk expiring webmention endpoints are now live
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aaronpk on aaronparecki.com
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aaronpk anyone want to try sending me a mention to test this for real?
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bear aaronpk - just did
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aaronpk hey cool it worked!
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aaronpk I added some logging to see how many errors I get, and I log the current time vs expiration time
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bear nice
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aaronpk so sohuld have some interesting stats in a few months
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bear I have the beginnings of a indie-stats crawler
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aaronpk sweet
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bear i'm generating a json blob each day of site info and mf2 parsed results
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aaronpk oh yeah I need to add that checkbox for indieauth.com
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bear working on a simple flask app to allow an indie-auth masked simple endpoint to let folks ping the site to get added to the list
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: this moving webmention endpoint don't seem to be documented
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KartikPrabhu only in irc I suppose
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KevinMarks_ Danlyke: what are you using for feed parsing? You could launder them through universal feed parser like I did for http://feed.unmung.com
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bear.im edited /Known (-36) "add note about source change not being required now" (view diff)
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@MikeGrahamBlog RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512120596524978177)
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bear.im edited /User:Bear.im (+405) "/* Projects */" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /User:Bear.im (-387) "/* Projects */" (view diff)
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bear.im created /indie-stats (+570) "Created page with "'''<dfn>[https://github.com/bear/indie-stats indie-stats]</dfn>''' is a Python open source [[project]] that will gather mf2 data for IndieWeb domains and generate stats. Generat..."" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+0) "fix link" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu bear: is it possible to see the indie-stats data for domains you have already parsed?
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KartikPrabhu bear.im/domains.json linked from the page 404s
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@mmahdi41 RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512140604709408768)
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neuro` Good morning indie Web
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pfefferle moin moin
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tantek.com edited /Talk:why (-376) "fixed by removing "How" link which didn't add anything beyond the other see also links" (view diff)
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hmans FML. http://engineering.foursquare.com/2014/09/16/introducing-pants-a-build-system-for-large-scale-codebases-like-foursquares/
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KartikPrabhu hmans: is this the same as your pants?
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KartikPrabhu these seem like different pants = Python Ants
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KartikPrabhu neuro`: pfefferle: morning!
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KartikPrabhu pfefferle: I successfully installed a local version of WP+SemPress... took some doing though
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DWGinNYC Hi all, I assume this channel is simply for the webcamp -- is there another channel dedicated to the indie web movement in general I can join?
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: this is the one :)
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DWGinNYC ;) Thanks, I'm plugged in then.
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hmans KartikPrabhu, no, it's a completely different app, doing something entirely different. It just has the same name.
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KartikPrabhu hmans: I like your etymology better ;)
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hmans But considering that it's backed by Twitter, Foursquare and Square, I guess I can't just let it slide.
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KartikPrabhu hmans: the name scoop is unfortunate
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: welcome! do you already have a site?
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KartikPrabhu or are looking to have one?
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DWGinNYC I've been talking about this for YEARS. Great to finally encounter an organized, or at least, impressed movement about it.
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DWGinNYC ...thought I was going crazy.
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DWGinNYC Notepad + HTML = You on the web.
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DWGinNYC etc.
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DWGinNYC lol
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DWGinNYC Yes, www.davethewebguy.com
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: nice... start simple. but folks here are also very UI/UX oriented
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DWGinNYC Heh, well I have a fundamentalist example to make my point, but even I use tools nowadays. :)
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: I see you already have Twitter etc.. links on your homepage. If you add a rel=me to them, you can log in to the wiki at indiewebcamp.com (and other IndieAuth sites)
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DWGinNYC ...hold on a sec, let me seeee
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DWGinNYC I'll try it, what do I need to do exactly? Well, generally, I can figure it out. Just point me in the right direction. You mean, edit my Twitter code to include rel = me?
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: the link that you have for Twitter, you can change it so <a href="twitterURL" rel="me"> etc... and that should suffice
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pfefferle hey KartikPrabhu … any problems with SemPress or general installation stuff of WordPress?
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KartikPrabhu oh and link to your homepage from your Twitter profile :)
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DWGinNYC Okay let me do so and advise here momentarily
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KartikPrabhu pfefferle: no Sempress problems, just getting all the simlinks stuff so that WP actually sees the local version of the theme I want to edit
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KartikPrabhu pfefferle: my plan is to edit SemPres so it acts more like a artist portfolio site, instead of a generic indieweb theme. If I think of some useful additions to SemPress itself I'll send a PR your way :)
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DWGinNYC Okay, done, FYI, I assume we are talking about my Twitter embed at http://www.davethewebguy.com/dwg_blog/display.asp , so, it's added there.
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pfefferle KartikPrabhu nice, but please use Github instead of a PR… So that I can’t lose the message ;)
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KartikPrabhu pfefferle: PR = Pull Request on Github :P I've already made a fork there
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: I was actually talking about the link on your homepage. I actually have no idea where one would put a rel=me in a Twitter embed
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pfefferle KartikPrabhu oh god… it is too early for my brain :)
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KartikPrabhu pfefferle: and it is too late for mine :P
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DWGinNYC KartikPrabhu, ah, not a problem, done there as well.
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bear KartikPrabhu - oops - i'll fix the link
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: you seem to have added me="=" , you need to add rel="me"
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+12) "fix link" (view diff)
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DWGinNYC Yeah, I caught that and fixed. Refresh. :)
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DWGinNYC I think we are talking about the same error.
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KartikPrabhu bear: success! I got the json and found myself :P
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bear cool
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@oknaknci @kisalar + ettim. Peki bu indieweb fikri ne anlama geliyor? Indie sözcüÄŸünden dolayı kulaÄŸa hoÅŸ geliyor. (twitter.com/_/status/512156324793049089)
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bear I need to add some sort of index page
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bear for each mf2 file I generate
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: nice... now if your twitter also link back to your homepage you can log in using your hompage into the wiki
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KartikPrabhu bear: neat... just bear.im/indie-stats/kartikprabhu.com should be good right?
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@agoracollective Outcome of our artistic residency, #indieweb summit and smooooothies! Busy week! https://www.facebook.com/agoracollective/posts/781949985161827 (-ms) (twitter.com/_/status/512156660518096896)
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bear yes, that contains the last poll
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bear but i'm also storing them using timestamps
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bear oh wait
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bear bear.im/indie-stats/domains/kartikprabhu.com
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KartikPrabhu oh @agoracollective talking about indiweb on FB ... tch tch
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KartikPrabhu bear: ok that works too :)
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bear i'll fix the code so it adds the history list to the main domain json file
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KartikPrabhu bear: neat! why is the mf2 having relative URLs? are you using an older version of mf2py?
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bear I may be
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Loqi [mention] http://bkf.withknown.com/2014/oknaknci-prensipleri-burada-principles-lki-ve-bence-en-nemlisi-ieriin linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (webmention)
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bear mf2py==0.1.1
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KartikPrabhu bear: I think a 0.2.0 is out
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bear let me try and upgrade
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bear ah - yes
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bear 0.2.1
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bear i'll clear the history and generate a new set now
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DWGinNYC KartikPrabhu, ah, if you mean the link at my Twitter profile page, it kind of does, but, it does via a self-written URL shortener. But I can change that if that's the place you mean.
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: i noticed it links to the blog section not the homepage.
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DWGinNYC okay, let me do some magic
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DWGinNYC Done!
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KartikPrabhu awesome now you can try logging in to and add yourself to the list: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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bear heading to bed - KartikPrabhu if you take the "polled" item from the domains.json for a domain - and strip out the :, - and Z from the time stamp you will get the last polled data
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bear so yours is 2014-09-17T08:39:08Z == 20140917T083908_kartikprabhu.com
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KartikPrabhu ooo
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bear I haven't settled on a storage pattern yet
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bear i'm thinking low tech
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bear bear.im == latest
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DWGinNYC Working on it, getting error but am troubleshooting.
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tantek hello from London!
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bear bear.im_history == list of filenames of history
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tantek perks up at "storage pattern"
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message 12 hours, 2 minutes ago: Made some suggested changes to /Getting_Started I preserved the current live version in the history so you can compare :) http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started
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KartikPrabhu bear: got it. but it still gives a relative urls in the mf2... weird
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bear tantek - just trying out different ways of storing the polled data i'm generating
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bear KartikPrabhu - I may be calling mf2 parser() wrong?
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KartikPrabhu bear: will look into it soon. since you are heading to bed we can postpone this issue for a while
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bear the code is in the repo if you get a thought or yea, we can talk further about it later
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bear it's very much in thought-code-test-repeat mode
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DWGinNYC Got it
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DWGinNYC had to use www.davethewebguy.com versus davethewebguy.com
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DWGinNYC Kewl thanks!
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DWGinNYC Adding my name.
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bear heads out
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www.davethewebguy.com edited /IRC_People (+82) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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tantek DWGinNYC: have you seen no-www.org ?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: man you are quite the globe-trotter
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: possibly going through http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started might be a good next step
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tantek !tell gRegor` your Getting_Started edits look great - ship it. We can fix any styling issues in-place.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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DWGinNYC Thanks, I'm leaving window open to resume at sunrise -- thanks for your help!
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KartikPrabhu DWGinNYC: neat! night
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@basegames Working on a Wrecking Ball game? Will Miley be there?!? #indiegames #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512168161131913217)
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@TheIndieSloth RT @basegames: Working on a Wrecking Ball game? Will Miley be there?!? #indiegames #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512168417353539585)
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@AllGameBot RT @basegames: Working on a Wrecking Ball game? Will Miley be there?!? #indiegames #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512169526063292416)
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alexhartley Hi all, just wondering if anyone would be able to help me with my http://www.brid.gy setup please? Having trouble hooking facebook up...
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tantek alexhartley: what's your personal site? go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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alexhartley Ok I will thanks. I have a known site set up at http://stream.alexhartley.me which is pulling in twitter mentions, but I can't seem to get brid.gy to recognise the web address on my facebook profile.
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alexhartley brid.gy address is here: https://www.brid.gy/facebook/537627227#_=_
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alexhartley.me edited /IRC_People (+60) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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alexhartley.me edited /IRC_People (+0) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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tantek alexhartley: great!
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tantek I'm not sure how to troubleshoot Bridgy in particular for this
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tantek perhaps add this as part of your user page?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=User:Alexhartley.me&action=edit&redlink=1
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tantek and then we can leave a message for snarfed,kylewm to take a look
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alexhartley tantek: So I just post my issue there? Sorry new to indiewebcamp!
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tantek alexhartley: no problem at all!
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tantek we use our User: pages as a place to collect what we're "Working On"
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tantek go ahead and create your User: page with name, URL, photo if you like, and add a == Working On == section with "Bridgy setup" and the details you noted
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alexhartley tantek: excellent thanks. I'll do that now.
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tantek you can check out some of our User: pages as examples too - click through various folks on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people (especially those with faces :) )
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tantek !tell benwerd,kevinmarks could you add an indie event and FB POSSE copy for San Francisco to: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club#URLs ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@fadeitdk We're seeing loads of great ideas at #GETDBerlin @Gatesense_IoT @indiewebcamp @MailpileTeam @RIOT_OS @JockelLohkamp (twitter.com/_/status/512192286386847744)
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tantek.com edited /HTTPS (+8) "move Why to the top" (view diff)
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tommorris.org edited /HTTPS (+598) "/* Why */ added my justification" (view diff)
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parzzix On known, when someone replies to a tweet or post and I want to reply to comment, I can just do it from known correct?
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parzzix do I still just do @theirname or do i use @their site name?
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tantek.com edited /HTTPS (+131) "/* Why */ move new why up closer to top add summaries of points" (view diff)
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tommorris.org edited /HTTPS (+1) "syntax fix" (view diff)
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tommorris tantek: looks good
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tantek.com edited /HTTPS (+28) "/* Why */ comment authenticity as summary" (view diff)
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elf-pavlik sends greetings from http://get-d.net , Brennan Novak also here :)
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tantek elf-pavlik: excellent! how's your IndieMark support level?
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tantek also hi bnvk!
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elf-pavlik tantek, i think quite low :( possibly quite few people control a domain name :D
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@anna_blume_hh RT @fadeitdk: We're seeing loads of great ideas at #GETDBerlin @Gatesense_IoT @indiewebcamp @MailpileTeam @RIOT_OS @JockelLohkamp (twitter.com/_/status/512216670593896448)
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@Gatesense_IoT RT @fadeitdk: We're seeing loads of great ideas at #GETDBerlin @Gatesense_IoT @indiewebcamp @MailpileTeam @RIOT_OS @JockelLohkamp (twitter.com/_/status/512219102233264128)
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jonnybarnes hello everyone
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tantek hello jonnybarnes!
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jonnybarnes I can't do javascript :(
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tantek that's ok, there's a lot of progressive enhancement positive thinkers here :)
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elf-pavlik jonnybarnes, we organized 2 JS workshops for http://jsfest.berlin :)
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elf-pavlik https://twitter.com/KenanSulayman/status/511601074512617473
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@KenanSulayman NodeSchool September '14 https://twitter.com/KenanSulayman/status/511601074512617473/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/511601074512617473)
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elf-pavlik https://twitter.com/meinharrd/status/511077203937734656
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@meinharrd teaching #javascript at @OTS_BLN at @co_up #berlin today #jsfab http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-berlin/events/202826812/ https://twitter.com/meinharrd/status/511077203937734656/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/511077203937734656)
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jonnybarnes on a sidenote this annoys me, why does berlin get its own TLD but my city of Manchester doesn't. Not fair!
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lewiscowper a capital of a major European country with a million more people in it than a city in the north of England?
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lewiscowper London has a TLD
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jonnybarnes well, when you put it like that?
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elf-pavlik talking about London - https://github.com/nodeschool/london & http://www.meetup.com/opentechschool-london/
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jonnybarnes however I would point out that "Manchester" has about 3.2million people
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elf-pavlik I think farmersmarket.manchester wouldn't make a nice domain name... maybe airport codes?
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@xtracom_tic RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512227328080900098)
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elf-pavlik farmersmarket.man :D
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lewiscowper jonnybarnes, according to wikipedia it's 2.7 million in greater manchester
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jonnybarnes elf-pavlik farmersmasket.mcr
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lewiscowper but yeah, I think the Berlin/London/Paris TLDs make more sense to figure out where demand lines
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lewiscowper *lines
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elf-pavlik tantek, do you know if https://www.brid.gy can aggregate h-cards people publish on their websites?
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tantek what would it be bridging from and to?
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elf-pavlik just pulling all the h-cards based on list of people's profiles... i didn't look at bridgy in depth, bnvk just showed it to me
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elf-pavlik i made small PoC where I can aggregate profiles which use http://schema.org/Person since i publish this way, but would also like to suppor fetching profiles people publish with h-card
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tantek elf-pavlik: bridgy bridges between two sites
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tantek pulling all the h-cards based on people's profile is just the *from*
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tantek what do you propose as the *to*?
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tantek as in, *to* what other site?
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tantek and for what use-case?
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elf-pavlik http://directory.open-steps.org/
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elf-pavlik now it makes people fillup google form to get listed, i can already list myself with data from my website
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tantek why not have that site parse people's h-cards directly from their URLs?
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tantek no need for bridgy in the middle
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@JockelLohkamp check out some first impressions from #GETDBerlin http://get-d.net/home/blog/ @GOTOber @Gatesense_IoT @RIOT_OS @MailpileTeam #indieweb @bblfish (twitter.com/_/status/512228938937282560)
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@JockelLohkamp RT @fadeitdk: We're seeing loads of great ideas at #GETDBerlin @Gatesense_IoT @indiewebcamp @MailpileTeam @RIOT_OS @JockelLohkamp (twitter.com/_/status/512229048786096128)
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elf-pavlik makes sense, i thought bridgy does something similar to directory listings as well
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elf-pavlik https://www.brid.gy/users
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tantek oh interesting - that page itself could use h-card
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tantek added: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/289
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elf-pavlik we'll continue with first option supporting formats i publish with and then i hope can work together with bnvk to add another option using h-card, my data (on github, since moving servers now) https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json
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elf-pavlik tantek, have you seen http://jsonresume.org ?
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tantek elf-pavlik: is that for real?
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tantek that's just this decade's version of http://xmlresume.sourceforge.net/ right?
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tantek elf-pavlik: feel free to add jsonresume to http://microformats.org/wiki/resume-formats at least for research / documentation purposes.
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barnabywalters omg I hadn’t seen xmlresume before
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tantek barnabywalters: all this JSON-* one-off formats have been done 10 years ago as XML-* formats.
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barnabywalters what version of HTML was current in 2004?
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tantek it's just that developers, especially new ones, forget
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barnabywalters they managed to reinvent <p> -> <para> and <em> -> <emphasis>
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tantek in 2004, XHTML1 was perhaps considered the most modern
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tantek barnabywalters: XML culture liked to reinvent things, just as JSON culture does
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tantek note the reinvention of plenty of vCard/h-card vocabulary in that jsonresume
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barnabywalters <para>normal markup
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elf-pavlik someone made issue while ago, suggesting to reuse schema.org https://github.com/jsonresume/resume-schema/issues/42
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tommorris tantek: I had some fun on twitter with the JSON Resume guys. They've managed to completely botch so many things it's unbelievable.
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elf-pavlik tommorris, link?
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tommorris Eh, can't find it now.
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tantek I'm just going to assume that the jsonresume people are "new" and missed the spate of XML-* vocabularies.
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elf-pavlik searching with http://snapbird.org
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elf-pavlik https://twitter.com/harriyott/status/486523442460889088
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@harriyott @tommorris Can you parse it into json? (twitter.com/_/status/486523442460889088)
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elf-pavlik this one could do it at first glance https://github.com/glennjones/microformat-node
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tommorris Yep, or mf2py or php-mf2 :)
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tantek elf-pavlik: so can phpmf2 and mf2py
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tantek heh
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tantek pick your language: node, PHP, Python
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tantek the Ruby parser is a bit behind and could use some help
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tantek elf-pavlik: what's your preferred backend language?
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elf-pavlik i like JS and Ruby
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elf-pavlik lately mostly Node.js
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elf-pavlik i would like to fetch h-card and parse them to JSON-LD http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats
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elf-pavlik this way i can easily store them into LevelGraph with https://github.com/mcollina/levelgraph-jsonld
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tantek elf-pavlik: what does it need beyond the JSON structure already produced by parsers?
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glennjones I keep the microformat-node update as I use on my blog ie http://glennjones.net/notes/json and it powers https://transmat.io/
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tantek elf-pavlik: microformats parsers produce a canonical JSON output
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elf-pavlik tantek, i haven't looked at mf specific json format
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elf-pavlik on first thought if i just want to reuse vocab i woldn't need to use it at all
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elf-pavlik and them mix it with any other vocabs available thanks to RDF / JSON-LD
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tantek elf-pavlik: you can do all that mixing already in microformats and in the JSON output from microformats
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tantek so I'm not sure what else JSON-LD adds (or what you need from it)
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elf-pavlik on my homepage, whenever schema.org doesn't support something i just use another vocab, for example http://smiy.sourceforge.net/cco/spec/cognitivecharacteristics.html#sec-glance
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tantek elf-pavlik: here are simple examples of the JSON output from microformats parsers: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#simple_microformats_2_examples
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tommorris tantek, elf-pavlik: I've been meaning to write some JSON-LD stuff for microformats.org parser output. wouldn't be too hard.
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elf-pavlik i guess so
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elf-pavlik BTW @LDPWG just made JSON-LD a MUST https://twitter.com/lehors/status/512088825888133120
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@lehors New LDP Last Call spec from the @LDPWG with upgraded support for JSON-LD! (MUST!) /cc @manusporny @Gkellogg See http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-ldp-20140916/ (twitter.com/_/status/512088825888133120)
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elf-pavlik s/New/Now/
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tantek btw elf-pavlik,tommorris since this is a generic vocabulary/syntax discussion re: microformats, we should probably do it in #microformats
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@hiperterminal @PibeGeek @Patton Yo ando bajando mi información de todo lado para tenerla en mi nube. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512248003726675968)
snarfed, gRegor`, hugoroyd, DanToml, tommorris, lmjabreu___, mattl, b0bg0d_____, Aeyoun, hadleybeeman, benward___, jden, jancborchardt, Garbee, CaptainCalliope, kronda_ and Phae joined the channel
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djmadeira I’m new to the IndieWeb movement; how do most people go about doing @mentions on their site without creating a twitter dependency?
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djmadeira for example, if I wanted to do POSSE on my site and support mentions, but not have those all break if/when twitter goes out of business
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djmadeira seems like most of the indieweb stuff is tied to domains; could I use @bennannovak.com as the mention, use indieauth if supported to find the twitter handle, and make that the link dynamically using a CMS?
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tantek djmadeira: you can send webmentions directly to other indieweb sites
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tantek you don't have to go through Twitter
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djmadeira right, but if I want to go POSSE
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djmadeira and I want to basically tweet from my site (notes)
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tantek POSSE is only for when you want to specifically stay involved with one or more specific silos
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djmadeira How should I handle @mention ing? should I at all? should it always be a rel=webmention
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tantek to stay in touch with your friends on those silos
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tantek the indieweb @-mention equivalent is simply linking to someone's home page and then sending a webmention to them
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djmadeira ok
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tantek no need for rel=webmention those links, in fact that's not what that means
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tantek rel=webmention is for discovery of webmention endpoints
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djmadeira oh
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tantek see indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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kylewm djmadeira: this may be helpful too http://indiewebcamp.com/nicknames-cache
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Mark87 anybody use phpmf2?
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tantek Mark87: lots of folks here!
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Mark87 I'm looking at the github, and I don't know how to install it. I just want to require() it, call a fetch() function and get back some php objects representing the data. Can it do that?
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tantek pretty sure it can work like that
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barnabywalters Mark87: yep, download src/Mf2/Parser.php and call Mf2\fetch() or Mf2\parse()
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barnabywalters https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2#fetching-microformats-from-a-page
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tantek barnabywalters: perhaps you could stub that on the wiki?
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tantek what is phpmf2?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "phpmf2" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=phpmf2
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tantek what is mf2php
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mf2php" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mf2php
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tantek what is php-mf2?
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Loqi php-mf2 is a superb open source PHP microformats2 parser that also supports classic microformats per the microformats2 parsing specification http://indiewebcamp.com/php-mf2
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barnabywalters it’s already on the readme, I don’t want to duplicate it because then it’ll go out of date
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tantek.com created /phpmf2 (+21) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` Composer makes it even easier to install.
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Mark87 Well that is much easier. Why does the Installation readme go on about Composer and GPG keys?
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gRegor` Recommended.
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Mark87 my eyes glossed over
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Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 31 minutes ago: your Getting_Started edits look great - ship it. We can fix any styling issues in-place.
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tantek.com created /mf2php (+21) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is composer?
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Loqi Composer is a package manager for PHP libraries http://indiewebcamp.com/Composer
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barnabywalters Mark87: because for anything with more than one or two dependencies, composer simplifies things hugely
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barnabywalters and because you should verify code that you’re running
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barnabywalters (not that it’s possible in most cases)
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tantek.com edited /php-mf2 (+4) "/* Composer */ linky" (view diff)
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barnabywalters (btw, mf2 is a “superb” parser? /me blushes)
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gregorlove.com edited /Getting_Started (-19) "Shipping updated version" (view diff)
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Mark87 thanks, now im gonna see about getting this running
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barnabywalters Mark87: cool! don’t hesitate to ask if you have any more questions/issues
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gregorlove.com edited /Getting_Started (+64) "TOC display" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started () "(-7808) r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (-62) "emojicon tweak, no need to float DIV separately" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes right, I've implemented a very simple form content persistance on https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new
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danlyke KevinMarks, I'm using Perl's XML::Feed. I could use some sort of proxy for the h-* stuff, but my life really doesn't need more distributed potential points of system failure...
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ben_thatmustbeme starting a new webapp to give us at least partial indiemark bits as well as some stats on all sites on irc-people
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Mark87 ben_thatmustbeme what bits do you mean?
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ben_thatmustbeme well at least be able to list who has rel=me auth providers, how many, who has what endpoints (auth, webmention, token, micropub)
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: how about building it as part of indiewebify.me?
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ben_thatmustbeme who has h-feeds linked off the main page. then just curiousity bits for like 'most posts' etc
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, I suppose i could give that a try
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kylewm jonnybarnes: nice work on the localStorage stuff! looks like you went without a library?
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ben_thatmustbeme actually, that would save me a lot of work
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gRegor` Seen the /indie-stats project bear is working on?
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: that’s exactly what indiewebify.me was started as (an indiemark tracker) but I haven’t been able to give it the attention it deserves
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bret a+ to tantek for a great IWCUK14 writeup! :)
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jonnybarnes well I found a project called store that seemed to simplify things across various browsers
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jonnybarnes bu other than that, self-made
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bret http://tantek.com/2014/259/b1/indiewebcampuk-hack-day-https-webactions
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bear ben_thatmustbeme - that is the same thing that i've started but I would love to split the work up amongst others
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jonnybarnes native JS seems to be getting very good these days, with things like querySelector and eventListener
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yup, with a few little syntatic shortcuts it can be very usable indeed
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bret i still dont quite understand how to use jquery
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barnabywalters bret: $().()$$$()$’$().$.ajax($$()))$$$))($$)
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neuro` barnabywalters: is that Lisp?
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bear ben_thatmustbeme - if you tell me what format you want the data from each domain in I can start deliverying that to you now
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Mark87 tantek do you publish h-entrys on tantek.com?
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Loqi [mention] http://timapple.withknown.com/bookmark/4dfb029156a348b411fa2eba66d0de5e/http-indiewebcampcom- linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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bret barnabywalters: gahhhhh $ does not belong in JS!
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jonnybarnes bret why not?
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bret i dunno actually. I dont know jquery clearly
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barnabywalters Mark87: yup, tantek publishes h-entry, see http://tantek.com/
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bret ;) just joking around
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jonnybarnes its just a function name i think
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ben_thatmustbeme bear, my original plan was to just curl and grep for interesting bits, but since it seems there is certainly interest in it, perhaps we should just start a fork of indiewebify.me's git repo
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jonnybarnes every time you see $() you could write jquery()
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bret $().()$$$()$’$().$.ajax($$()))$$$))($$)
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bret s/$/jquery
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Loqi bret meant to say: $().()$$$()$’$().$.ajax($$()))$$$))($$)jquery
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kylewm lol
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bret awwww
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jonnybarnes oh dear Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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barnabywalters heh, $ is a regex symbol
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bret $().()$$$()$’$().$.ajax($$()))$$$))($$)
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bear ben_thatmustbeme - i have already started it earlier this week
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bret s/\$/jquery
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Loqi bret meant to say: jquery().()jqueryjqueryjquery()jquery’jquery().jquery.ajax(jqueryjquery()))jqueryjqueryjquery))(jqueryjquery)
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kylewm this is not really a fair criticism of jquery... yes modern browsers have querySelector now, but that was not always the case
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bear I have python code that scans each domain and stores data for it
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bret pats Loqi on the head
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jonnybarnes kylewm: the only real criticism I had is jquery was not more modular
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jonnybarnes maybe theyve changed that now but it used to be one ginormous js file
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barnabywalters jQuery is, for the most part, a well designed abstraction
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barnabywalters (minus $.ajax, my nemisis)
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ben_thatmustbeme bear oh nooes. python! *shakes fist* :P do you have the repo public?
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bear ben_thatmustbeme - I was unaware that indiewebify.me had a stats component (or wanted to have)
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jonnybarnes i remember reading a list of all sorts of browser inconosistancies that it fixed
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: what's $.ajax done to you?
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bear ben_thatmustbeme yes :) - and it's python because it seemed a natural fit for the backend/cron nature of the task
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ben_thatmustbeme well, they already have a lot of the parsing for testing various components of the site, the code would basically be just running through all those things for each site and storing results
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: so much jargon (some inconsistent) to remember
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barnabywalters e.g. done vs complete vs success vs error vs fail
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bear ben_thatmustbeme what language?
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ben_thatmustbeme bear, i've become a ruby whore, though i work mostly in php...
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ben_thatmustbeme indiewebify.me is in php
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bear ugh - php *blech* *pffft*
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm not far off from just doing this in bash
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bear :)
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bear I think it can be done in two pieces - we can write the stat parsing bits in anything really and just put them in a dir with a simple calling pattern
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bear then I can feed the data to it, it generates numbers and populates a datastore
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gRegor` Mark87: You may have already seen this, but pin13.net is a good tool for testing parsing microformats from any site.
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ben_thatmustbeme php can be very frustrating for all the inconsistencies in it. I am constantly having to check the order of built in functions
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barnabywalters Mark87: gRegor`: also https://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=tantek.com
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bear yea, that is why I keep going back to python - very procedural
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bear ben_thatmustbeme - what i'm doing now is gathering the html and also running that thru mf2py - then storing both with a timestamp
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Mark87 gRegor thanks! I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with h-entry feeds, using phpmf2 to parse them, when it suddenly stopped showing me h-entry. I must have an error somewhere
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Mark87 h-entry items *
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ben_thatmustbeme bear, do you store headers for when you curl sites down?
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bear yes
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bear stores *everything*
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barnabywalters store all the things
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Mark87 barnabywalters i'll check it out, thanks
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bear if we work out a simple "here process this payload" call type - we can make it so that anyone can contribute a stat generating code bit in almost any language
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ben_thatmustbeme this started out of curiosity over who uses the headers vs who uses html <head> for endpoints
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bear I'll make a change to get a json metadata file that points to a file for headers, content and mf2 for each domain for each timestamp
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be cool.. just need some central data store, which it sounds like you are already working on
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bear I was using flatfiles just to avoid the yak shaving of picking a database
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ben_thatmustbeme flat files is fine for the html and headers
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bear yea, I kicked the "how to store the stats" question-can down the path
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rascul bear shelve is fun sometimes
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rascul well, as long as the file will only be accessed via python
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bear :)
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bear given the number of php types in the indieweb community I was sticking to json
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rascul probably a good idea
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ben_thatmustbeme nods
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bear in my editor window right now is a super simple flash app to deliver a json payload of info for a domain for a date
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bear so that anyone who wanted to consume stats would just give a date range and a domain and they would get back the json of stats
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bear ugh - what a bad typo s/flash/flask/
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ben_thatmustbeme ohhhh
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ben_thatmustbeme i was like REALLY? FLASH???!
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bear :)
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ben_thatmustbeme so you are storing history of all the html too?
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bear yes
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ben_thatmustbeme damn
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Loqi hehe
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bear right now it's not a lot - haven't fired it up for real yet
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bear but I wanted to store the html in case a new mf2 parsing feature is added and then we could backfill older stats
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, but we would script it to basically say on a daily(?) basis, go through and grab the latest data for each site and process a data point using script (X)
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bear yes
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ben_thatmustbeme bear, i've had success in the past just with a descriptor file of some sort as the go between to allow any language. just have some metadata file in whatever format you want for the python that will tell it how to run my script via shell, and how to interpret results
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bear ben_thatmustbeme - your describing the same method I normally use
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ben_thatmustbeme great
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bear my preferred choice for that is bash with a known command line pattern
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bear crunch.sh domain
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bear crunch.sh domain timestamp
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bear or something
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bear and it would loop thru a directory of crunchers calling each as needed
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snarfed indie-stats++
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Loqi indie-stats has 1 karma
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi bear has 24 karma
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snarfed so excited you took this and ran with it!
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bear it is a neat project that is forcing me to use new tools :)
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snarfed yeah, learning can definitely "hurt so good" sometimes :P
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ben_thatmustbeme ack, net split
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ben_thatmustbeme kicks the net
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ben_thatmustbeme thats better
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ben_thatmustbeme bear, if you can get me a sample. i'll work on starting some various stats modules that interest me
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bear ben_thatmustbeme I sure can - it may not be until later in the day
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ben_thatmustbeme no problem, whenever
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bear you can see my first draft of the domain master list at http://bear.im/indie-stats/domain.json
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bear or is that domains.json
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ben_thatmustbeme domains
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bear but yes, I'll get that to you tonight for sure
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bear that list was seeded from the irc-people list
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snarfed bear: i just realized bridgy has another, bigger list of domains you could use
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ben_thatmustbeme ohh, good thinking snarfed
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snarfed already publicly visible on people's user pages, linked from https://www.brid.gy/users , so no privacy concerns
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snarfed i can get you a dump if you want
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bear naa - let me grab it using the code and parse it
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bear so it can be part of the seed code I have for irc-people
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snarfed you'd have to fetch each person's user page individually :/ you can if you want to, but the dump would probably be easier
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bear unless you frown on that I don't mind
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bear or you can attach it to https://github.com/bear/indie-stats/issues/1
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snarfed will do
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bear hmm, yea - dump would be better
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bear because then I can focus on other code and start gathering data
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+616) "updated with latest design notes" (view diff)
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bear ben_thatmustbeme ^^ that is what i'm planning on doing tonight and tomorrow
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gRegor` indie-stats++
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Loqi indie-stats has 2 karma
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gRegor` Cool to see momentum on this
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snarfed bear: done!
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bear thanks!
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: glad to hear you're working on this too!
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ben_thatmustbeme :)
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snarfed !tell http://alexhartley.me/ sorry for the trouble with bridgy! it's actually set up with your FB account fine; the yellow warning banner is just a UI bug that i'm still debugging. apologies for the confusion!
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snarfed er
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snarfed !tell alexhartley sorry for the trouble with bridgy! it's actually set up with your FB account fine; the yellow warning banner is just a UI bug that i'm still debugging. apologies for the confusion!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed there
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ben_thatmustbeme oh btw, snarfed, brid.gy did not like it when i changed from http to https for everything
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: ruh roh. no?
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ben_thatmustbeme well actually it liked it fine, it just resent every comment/like again
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ben_thatmustbeme which i suppose should have been on my end to catch that
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snarfed ahh interesting
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snarfed oh you weren't de-duping? ugh sorry :/
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ben_thatmustbeme its okay, in theory my code doesn't allow it now, but figured i'd let you know
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snarfed kylewm: if we were to make bridgy de-dupe http vs https links, i wonder if that would go in PPD or somewhere broader...
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snarfed probably somewhere broader
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kylewm snarfed: definitely sounds like a posse part discovery bug
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snarfed kylewm: hmm, maybe…but, straw man, if someone includes an http link to their post, and then we discover the same url via PPD except it's https, we should probably merge them, right?
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snarfed or if someone includes two copies of a url in their silo post, one http and https. (very very unlikely :P)
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kylewm hmm, yes i agree with that
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kylewm it might send two copies right away in that case
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snarfed yeah. ok. filing
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@OnTheWebz RT @t: IndieWebCampUK 2014 Hack Day Demos: HTTPS, #webactions, new & improved #indieweb sites: http://tantek.com/2014/259/b1/indiewebcampuk-hack-day-https-webactions (twitter.com/_/status/512297128320724992)
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aaronpk where can I find more about the progress of indie-stats?
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aaronpk wiki page? http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-stats
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ben_thatmustbeme something funky is going on with my machine.....
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ben_thatmustbeme this is the second time today i've hit this issue, its like it has some issue with curling https urls
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aaronpk that seems likely
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aaronpk hm I want to see if bridgy has trouble sending me webmentions.. guess I need to POSSE something
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bear aaronpk - yes, i'll be keeping that page up to date with my progress
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aaronpk sweet
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aaronpk i like the idea of being able to add crunchers in any language
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bear because of the interest in this i'm moving it from my laptop to one of my servers tonight
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aaronpk STDIN -> STDOUT ftw
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bear yea, it's a pattern i've used in my Ops world before and it's really flexible and scalable
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aaronpk totally
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aaronpk that's the basis of Loqi :D
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi who, me?
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Loqi bear has 25 karma
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bear coolness
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snarfed aaronpk: any reason you think bridgy's having trouble? i don't see any recent failures on your user pages
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aaronpk snarfed: I changed to expiring webmention endpoint last night
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bear and we can add them to a repo and be able to auto-deploy any new hotness
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snarfed aaronpk: ah right
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aaronpk and haven't posted anything since then :)
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snarfed i just favorited a recent tweet of yours and clicked 'poll now' on https://www.brid.gy/twitter/aaronpk . we'll see!
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aaronpk there it goes!
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snarfed yay
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snarfed bridgy does cache endpoints, and i saw the discussion about that
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aaronpk I see "Also setting webmention_endpoint to..." in the logs
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aaronpk oh nice are you blanking out any parameters that include "token" automatically or something?
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snarfed no explicit expiration, but in practice it's only 1-2 hrs or so
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snarfed re: blanking, definitely
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snarfed spent more effort on that than i care to admit
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/logs.py#L17
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aaronpk so this means if bridgy tries to send another webmention after 5 minutes it will fail?
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snarfed aaronpk: you rotate every 5m? wow. then yes
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snarfed :/
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aaronpk every page request generates a new token that is valid for 5 minutes
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snarfed ugh. yeah we need to talk then
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk interesting that the webmention spec never explicitly stated whether it's ok to cache the endpoint for a domain
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snarfed right
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aaronpk it implies that the endpoint should be discovered for each post
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aaronpk but was not explicit
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snarfed we could consider an extra optional param somewhere in discovery that indicates ttl
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aaronpk :/
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snarfed yeah, understood. but running a service like bridgy, the thought of not caching also makes me :/
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aaronpk are you caching based on second-level domain?
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snarfed nah, full domain
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aaronpk er right
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aaronpk interesting that that's a sensible thing to do in the indieweb world, but not reasonable for multi-user domains
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aaronpk (like twitter.com, etc)
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aaronpk so without caching, you'd need to make an HTTP GET to each target you're sending to. is that actually a lot more work?
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snarfed aaronpk: hmm really? domain kind of implies that a single party is running it, so they'd just as easily have a single endpoint, and distinguish users based on parsing the source url
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bear we should be explicit in the TTL IMO
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aaronpk I dunno I could definitely see how twitter might want unique webmention endpoints per user
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Loqi yea!
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snarfed seems unlikely to me, but yeah, debatable
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bear because it's implied that it could change because it's discoverable
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aaronpk that's all theoretical at this point anyway
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aaronpk there's also the possiblity of caching the webmention endpoint per target URL
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aaronpk in which case TTL is also important
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snarfed re extra GETs being more work, the vast majority of links bridgy sees don't have wm endpoints, so i want to at least cache that. i could tighten the cache ttl for endpoints i do discover though
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snarfed yeah
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aaronpk i think caching a "no webmention endpoint for this domain" flag for several hours is totally reasonable
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aaronpk tho you may want to invalidate that cache if someone manually clicks the "poll now" button since it's likely to screw up onboarding new users
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aaronpk caching is hard :(
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snarfed good idea
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snarfed heh yes
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snarfed i have to admit, it seems like in practice, we don't yet have any of the problem(s) that expiring endpoints would solve, right?
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snarfed …so i'd probably want to talk a bit more before tuning bridgy for them
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gRegor` caching is hard, let's go shopping
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snarfed heh
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bear this is where I would implement an inverse ttl based on how often you've seen the domain
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aaronparecki.com edited /DDOS (+189) "/* Indieweb Examples */" (view diff)
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snarfed bear: huh. so, the more wms you send to a given domain, the shorter you cache its endpoint?
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bear hrmm did I say that wrong
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bear the more wm's a domain receives the longer the cacche
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jonnybarnes ssllabs have started flagging SHA-1 signed certs today
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bear bah - never mind - caching is hard, i'm going shopping
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snarfed bear++
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jonnybarnes so anyone with sha-1 signed certs
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Mark87 not that my opinion matters, but thinking about it overnight, I don't like expiring endpoints. They just don't solve anything
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snarfed right now at least, i vote for the optional explicit TTL or no-cache param. not convinced about the other options yet
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aaronpk to be fair, right now the spec says (implies) that the webmention endpoint should be discovered for each URL you send a webmention to.
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aaronpk so expiring endpoints may not fall entirely within the spec, but unique endpoints per URL certainly does
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Mark87 If you give an explicit TTL, you basically lose all the value of the expiration, which is to prevent the buildup of large lists. With an explicit TTL, I can automate refreshing my large list.
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snarfed aaronpk: good find, thanks
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snarfed Mark87: sure. at a high level, i just feel like we're overthinking a problem we don't actually have yet
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snarfed i know this was discussed a lot over the last 2d; i don't mean to revive that discussion. i'll back away slowly now :P
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Mark87 I wonder is there a link to discussion of the spec while it was still being developed?
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Mark87 not the last two days, but webmentions itself
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aaronpk i'm logging stuff about my webmention endpoint now so i'll be able to share some stats soon
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snarfed Mark87: there's https://github.com/converspace/webmention/commits/master/README.md
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Mark87 I feel like all the problems would be solved if the spec called for the actual html of the page being POSTed to the webmention endpoint. Then it doesn't have to perform a GET back at all. I'm curious if anyone discussed something like that
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aaronpk that's just a giant spam vector
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gRegor` My StartSSL is apparently SHA1withRSA
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Mark87 its a spam vector no matter what
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bear that's a amplification attack in the making
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Mark87 the same moderation would be used on the posted page as would be used on the retrieved page
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Mark87 read moderation=anti-spam-procedures
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jonnybarnes its fine for now gRegor` but Google Chrome will start complianing
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aaronpk you can't trust the contents of the POST, so you'd have to go fetch the real URL to verify it anyway
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@SubhuTech Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You Actually Own What You Post on Facebook: All... http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #Enterprise #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512306347355164672)
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gRegor` reads up on how to upgrade
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Mark87 well I have though about that, in what way couldn't you trust the POST contents.
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bear it kinda boils down to this in my brain - the webmention discovery is via GET - if the server returns ETAG or cache headers then they should be honoured
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aaronpk bear++ good idea
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Loqi bear has 26 karma
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Mark87 bear good call
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bear that solves the issue in my opinion
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aaronpk Mark87: you can't trust the POST contents because you can trivially imagine getting a POST request that says "google.com likes your post"
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snarfed bear: good point
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gRegor` I guess I have to wait for renewal of my cert, or pay a fee to revoke my SHA1 now.
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Mark87 @aaronpk ahhh, I was thinking about trusting the content of the post, trusting the origin of the content is an issue I missed
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bear hmm, did not know about that webmention github repo - going to have to review it to see if ronkyuu is compliant
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aaronpk http://webmention.org :D
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bear gRegor` or generate a new one with a www. or somesuch
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gRegor` Not sure I follow, bear. Wouldn't that leave the non-www current as SHA1?
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bear I do believe I walked thru webmention.org when writing it
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aaronpk gRegor`: you can just stop using your current one
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bear when you generate a non-wildcard cert you can have alt name - some vendors allow you to get a new one that way without forcing you to expire it
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bear or yes, you can always just get a new one and move on
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gRegor` I'm a noob to all this. I'll have to look into it more later.
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gRegor` I think StartSSL charges for the new one, because it means revoking the old one.
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aaronpk i've definitely got a few abondoned startssl certs lying around because I don't want to pay to revoke them
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bear some vendors - like startssl - won't let you replace a cert that has the same csr
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aaronpk no you can just generate a new one at startssl, it just has to have a unique subdomain
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bear aaronpk - right, that's what I was trying to say with the www. comment above
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bear words are hard, i'm going shopping
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aaronpk and since I don't actually use "www." I end up with things like "web." or "mail." when I need a new one
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gRegor` But will that work with my non-www domain? I don't have www
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@GraficusDesign Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You Actually Own What You Post on Facebook http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #Enterprise #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512307813201506304)
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aaronpk gRegor`: the startssl certs are valid for the second-level domain plus one subdomain
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aaronpk they usually prompt you to put "www." as the subdomain, but you can choose a different one
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gRegor` Ah, so I could pick a subdomain even if I'm not using it.
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk just like you're not using "www."
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bear I have www1 thru www23 on one of my certs
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gRegor` Heh
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bear because I keep testing different configs
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gRegor` Nice. Good to know.
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kylewm but then if someone visits https://www.gregorlove.com won't they get a insecure redirect?
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aaronpk yes
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kylewm (I haev the same problem with startssl)
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aaronpk so don't publish that URL anywhere :P
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gRegor` Hm
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bear I also finally just got my org validated because free wildcard certs from startssl was worth that effort
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aaronpk bear: yeah I'm considering doing the same. free wildcard certs <3
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gRegor` I might just wait till next year
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bear for a personal domain I would just wait
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gRegor` I still haven't even forced https on all pages, heh
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kylewm woohoo, laziness validated
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gRegor` lazinessl++
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bear the only reason i'm doing it is because we have a security related business so I have to make sure our SSL stuff is *tight*
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Loqi lazinessl has 1 karma
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bear lazinessl++
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Loqi lazinessl has 2 karma
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gRegor` I do want to understand ssl better, so might set up sha256 on another domain in the meantime
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bear gRegorbacktick++
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Loqi dude
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gRegor` sweet
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bear looks at loqi
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Loqi is done
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snarfed hugs loqi
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Loqi hugs snarfed
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bear boo - my site is no longer A+ because of the sha-1 cert
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bear ok, enough yak shaving and rabbit holes - time for some $dayjob work :)
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snarfed i know the feeling
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@erinjo Nice article in Wired from @klintron on @withknown, open source, and #indieweb. http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ (twitter.com/_/status/512310895780069376)
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jonnybarnes ergh, imessage/facetime has stopped working on Yosemite
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bret derp
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@VampirSexKttns Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You... http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #Enterprise #indieweb #Facebook #SocialMedia #technology #music (twitter.com/_/status/512312319511375872)
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@kyle_wm RT @erinjo: Nice article in Wired from @klintron on @withknown, open source, and #indieweb. http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ (twitter.com/_/status/512313132447178752)
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gRegor` http://mlkshk.typepad.com/mlkshk/2014/06/mlkshk-is-open.html Need an 'averted' section on /site-deaths? Heh
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aaronpk weird, I got a pingback from a facebook post
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snarfed whoa really?
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aaronpk i think it's some weird form of spam
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aaronpk the FB post didn't link to my article
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aaronpk must have been sorta manually crafted
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npdoty Loqi, tell benwerd and erinjo congratulations on the awesome Wired article
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Loqi dude
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npdoty "dude"? is that the confirmation message?
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gRegor` Has to start with !tell
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gRegor` !tell npdoty Like this
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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hober dude
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npdoty !tell benwerd and erinjo congratulations on the awesome Wired article
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Loqi hober: tantek left you a message 3 weeks ago: did you ever get the photos from IndieWebCamp Hollywood 2013 uploaded anywhere? When you find them, please upload with http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Upload - thanks!
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Loqi npdoty: gRegor` left you a message 22 seconds ago: Like this
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi hober: tantek left you a message 3 days, 1 hour ago: http://iamshane.com/videos/2013/5/30/1/backyard-squirrel-buddy Download video link is broken: XML: <Error><Code>AccessDenied</Code><Message>Access Denied</Message><RequestId>DA44D4B4E0CC7D53</RequestId><HostId>HoxOIEepMqbwgEhSEZ323cmTyseXmP+mm5zd6cpn7CjvIp71U5iaeCOBRlMLqVIv</HostId></Error>
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alanpearce No
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alanpearce I think it means it didn't understand
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk no, it's !tell
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npdoty ha, hober lurks for months at a time until mocking the dude reference
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snarfed oh snap
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aaronpk you can't hide from Loqi
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parzzix Does anyone know of a detailed tutorial for installing known?
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KevinMarks__ Interesting - pinboard's bookmark schema https://static.pinboard.in/schema.htm
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Loqi KevinMarks__: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 45 minutes ago: could you add an indie event and FB POSSE copy for San Francisco to: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club#URLs ?
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aaronpk ooookay now I really have some logging
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KevinMarks__ Check out @Pinboard's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/512319924124270593
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@Pinboard I have no idea what half those fields do anymore, but it seems to hold together pretty well while I sit and tweet all day (twitter.com/_/status/512319924124270593)
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KevinMarks__ Database antipattern?
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aaronpk ha
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KevinMarks__ Let's see if I can post an indie event and POSSE copy and edit the wiki on my phone while in line at the dmv
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@hhawk #NextSmallThing? After hearing about http://WithKnown.com on @FIRpodcast I've set up my account #IndieWeb http://hhawk.withknown.com/?utm_source=Tw&utm_medium=hoot&utm_campaign=new #BDi1 (twitter.com/_/status/512322268668907520)
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KevinMarks__ I already used known to check in as Swarm had wedged itself again
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kylewm parzzix: this is it http://known.readthedocs.org/en/latest/install/instructions.html
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parzzix thanks kylewm
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kylewm parzzix: and if you learn new stuff that the docs are missing, please add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/Known#How_to
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@JCCPalmer This post will be a lot of fun. My first major contribution to my Known website. #withknown #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512323769507905536)
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KevinMarks__ http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/homebrew-website-club
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parzzix kylewm, I just checked out your site...red wind looks nice. Don't know if i'm technical enough to get it going though
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@ilparone "Known... lets you keep a copy of whatever you publish and post on your own site" http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ by @klintron #internet #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512324039411773440)
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kylewm parzzix: thanks, and yeah it's not really ready for general consumption yet... probably only interesting if you want to write a lot of python
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (+68) "/* URLs */" (view diff)
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parzzix lol...I would like to learn python, but probably not the best way.
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ben_thatmustbeme i never liked that idea, "I'll open source it when its ready"
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@kyle_wm Discussion of @withknown and #indieweb on @FIRPodcast. Starts at 0:27 http://forimmediaterelease.biz/index.php?/weblog/comments/the_hobson_holtz_report_podcast_773_september_15_2014 (twitter.com/_/status/512325143037612033)
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kylewm ^this dude does a *great* job making it clear that indieweb isn't just known
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ben_thatmustbeme the wired article looked to be pretty clear about that
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npdoty +1
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kylewm they must've done a good job explaining that on TWiG
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snarfed hey lazy indieweb: i'm looking to convert rendered HTML whitespace (specifically line breaks) to the plain text equivalent
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snarfed e.g. if you have an article rendered in a browser, possibly including <p>s, <br>s, lists, etc., i'd like to convert that article's html to the equivalent plain text with line breaks that looks as similar as possible
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snarfed (…aaand i don't want to embed a browser in my code to do it)
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snarfed any ideas?
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bear I use a markdown parser for that
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alanpearce call `lynx -dump`?
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bear because embedded html is allowed
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kylewm snarfed: http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/html2text/
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bear yep ^^ was just typing kylewm's link also
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snarfed kylewm: ooh interesting, thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme well br,s and extra spaces are possible but at some point things could be styled by css
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: yes. ignoring css. :P
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snarfed bear: your markdown parser renders to text as well as html?
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bear yea, this type of conversion is always good for isolated chunks
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bear I thought it did...
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bear oh - hah - I use html2text for that also!
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bear doh!
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snarfed lol, that's the answer then
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ben_thatmustbeme actually i think i used html2text at one point in the past
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ben_thatmustbeme the name certainly looks familiar
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snarfed in a single, self-contained python lib no less. better than i dared hope
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bear yea, it's a great module - aaron really knew how to code
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bear is sad now
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KevinMarks__ Dmv line quicker than manual POSSE - shocking
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kbs apropos of nothing, and for the few people here who still use PGP :-) another little tool/idea to do the keybase "lookup-by-social-profile" features (without needing a separate service) over at https://github.com/kbsriram/keypan
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kbs idea happily stolen from rel=me hacking efforts, so thanks (I think! :)
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snarfed kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 11 karma
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bear kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 12 karma
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kbs hey snarfed and bear :) haven't given up my obsession with pgp yet, I guess
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bear never will
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ben_thatmustbeme still throws me off getting an e-mail from github mentions by you guys
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bear :)
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kylewm yeah, it's weird that it doesn't say it's from "GitHub"
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jonnybarnes so Im going to have to call Apple to get iMessage and FaceTime working on my laptop again :(
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bear that always messes with me also
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, best way to contact me would then become to github mention me
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bear i'm constantly going "why are they emailing me about brid.gy...?"
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ben_thatmustbeme i should create a repo thats just posse from my notes as git commit messages
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bear LOl
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Loqi definitely
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bear github as a notification service
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ben_thatmustbeme could be really interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme and lead to everyone immediately turning off mention notifications
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snarfed obligatory: https://github.com/aaronpk/self
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bear wow - that aaronpk dude is always 3 steps ahead of us
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snarfed (and https://github.com/aaronpk/self/issues/1 . couldn't help myself.)
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bear if I hadn't got distracted by work...
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kbs haha, aaronpk does think up cool stuff :)
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kylewm amusingly i think aaronpk only gets github notifications via IRC
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aaronpk this is true
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bear I so need to get that going again, but with xmpp instead ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed++ github as messaging
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Loqi snarfed has 46 karma
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snarfed oh god no, for the record, i am *not* advocating that :P
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snarfed just funny
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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elf-pavlik snarfed, hi :)
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snarfed hi elf-pavlik!
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elf-pavlik nice work with: bridgy !
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snarfed thanks!
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elf-pavlik i guess you need to deal with many APIs ?
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snarfed heh, oh yes
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elf-pavlik searching for video...
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elf-pavlik what do you think about Hypermedia APIs ? https://twitter.com/mamund/status/479319909621440514
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@mamund RT @layer7: Video: REST, Hypermedia, and the Semantic Gap: Why "RMM Level-3 REST" is not enough - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkAt9XSOfaE (twitter.com/_/status/479319909621440514)
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elf-pavlik also http://www.hydra-cg.com/
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elf-pavlik http://www.slideshare.net/lanthaler/a-deep-dive-into-jsonld-and-hydra
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snarfed i'm not familiar with hypermedia, sorry
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elf-pavlik i recommend checking it out, i see it as nice way for programmable interaction
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snarfed ok!
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elf-pavlik if you like interactive playgrounds
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elf-pavlik hydra: http://www.markus-lanthaler.com/hydra/console/
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elf-pavlik json-ld: http://json-ld.org/playground/
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elf-pavlik BTW how can i merge those thow accounts on bridgy?
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elf-pavlik https://www.brid.gy/users?start_name=elf
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elf-pavlik https://www.brid.gy/users?start_name=Pavlik
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elf-pavlik https://www.brid.gy/users?start_name=%E2%98%AE
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elf-pavlik 3 :)
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snarfed there's no way right now. is there something specific you wanwhat would you want hmm. what do you mean by merge?
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snarfed er, sorry, mistyped
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elf-pavlik i guess i don't understand this bridging concept... Branan just showed it to me
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gRegor` I don't know much about JSON-LD, but think Shane made some good points: http://iamshane.com/articles/2013/8/8/1/json-ld-is-an-unneeded-spec
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elf-pavlik LOL ;-) have you read Manu's reply? http://manu.sporny.org/2013/json-ld-is-the-bees-knees/
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elf-pavlik we need to ask him to implement webmention :D
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snarfed elf-pavlik: looks like you're set up on bridgy ok. your next step is to add webmention to one of your web sites.
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elf-pavlik i think i better do it even just to learn it and provide in polyglot manner!
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elf-pavlik have you seen http://sockethub.org/ by any chance?
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elf-pavlik better here https://github.com/sockethub/sockethub
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snarfed elf-pavlik: i'm definitely a sockethub fan! (see the bottom of https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial#related-work )
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bret damn snarfed, thanks for saving me $500
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elf-pavlik cool! we just met with Nick again IRL during http://lanyrd.com/2014/decentralizejs/
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bret and a major headache
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snarfed bret: lol
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elf-pavlik happy to see you implemented AS lib!
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bret so brid.gy basically taskes AS data from activitystreams-unofficial and layers on a uf2 and wm?
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bret endpoint*
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bret takes*
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snarfed bret: yes
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snarfed a-u actually also does the to/from uf2 part itself
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/microformats2.py
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elf-pavlik nice! in @SocialWebWG we work with AS2.0 spec https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams
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snarfed elf-pavlik: thanks!
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bret dude
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snarfed dude
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bret i need to read through this :)
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snarfed go for it! also available as a REST service, per silo
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snarfed e.g. http://twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com/
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snarfed barnabywalters uses that to get twitter streams inside shrewdness
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Mark87 elf-pavlik you're blowing my mind. This is something I've been dreaming up for a few months now, but using html5 microdata
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bret your like the john macfarlane of social networks (pandoc author ;p)
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elf-pavlik Mark87, cool! I work on comparing as:Activity with schema:Action https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Vocabulary_Comparison#as:Activity_.7C.7C_schema:Action
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Mark87 elf-pavlik this hyper jsonld stuff
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snarfed bret: that's high praise. thanks!
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elf-pavlik Mark87, we had chat with tantek_ and i want to get microformats JSON to JSON-LD conversion https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/512252399520866304
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@elfpavlik I try to get #microformats JSON as #JSONLD http://tinyurl.com/ohgtqkm @manusporny @MarkusLanthaler @Gkellogg can i do it without Framing? @t (twitter.com/_/status/512252399520866304)
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elf-pavlik i think we could get by with simply defining JSON-LD context and frame
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gRegor` "There have been no new Microformats released in the last 5 years and the mailing list traffic has been almost non-existent for around 5 years. From what I can tell, most everyone has moved on to RDFa, Microdata, or JSON-LD." Lulz
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@dougmckown Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You Actually Own What You Post on Facebook (and Twitter) http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512343810152472576)
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elf-pavlik gRegor`, i prefer RDFa over Microdata, also my homepage renders JSON-LD to RDFa which makes sweet templating engine! i need to pull out some stuff from http://viejs.org/
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elf-pavlik it can really DRY my view temlate https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/views/profile.hbs
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snarfed elf-pavlik: what's your homepage? wwelves.org? that just hangs for me :/
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elf-pavlik server i use went down but you can see it rendered at http://elf-pavlik.wwelves.org/
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snarfed ah thanks
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elf-pavlik also try copy its source and paste into http://rdfa.info/play/
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elf-pavlik hosting gifted by friends but occasionaly it goes down :(
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elf-pavlik once my website gets back up you can also Content Negotiate for application/ld+json
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techlifeweb Playing with indicating my stuff is syndicated by including an image with via og:image like http://techlifeweb.com/images/tlw-syndicated-60x60.png
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: I'd really like to see some examples of this stuff on your own website. I hope you can get the server back up soon!
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elf-pavlik sure, i have very little ATM, to put more up i want to use some way of managing collections, like https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design
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elf-pavlik can i with microformats make relation saying "web page with list of all people i know" ?
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elf-pavlik as you can see for now i have only very primitive functionality in https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled
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kylewm I was wondering the same thing yesterday, whether there is a rel= value for an XFN page
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kylewm (i.e., so you could find the contacts list from someon's homepage)
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elf-pavlik reading http://indiewebcamp.com/XFN
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elf-pavlik kylewm, have you looked on linke to hydra:Collection i just shared?
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kylewm looking
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, snarfed, Mark87 could you point me to someone participating in #indiewebcamp who digs and even better likes RDF? :)
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Mark87 elf-pavlik I'm new here, but im sure somebody around here is interested in RDF
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elf-pavlik Mark87, cool!
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aaronpk um tommorris has done some stuff i think
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aaronpk not many others
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elf-pavlik i help friends with converting some of their data into RDF, for example https://data.openoil.net/#nigeria_production
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elf-pavlik or http://metamaps.cc/maps/469
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elf-pavlik with JSON-LD and various vocabs from http://lov.okfn.org it looks doable
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elf-pavlik i wonder how far i could get with complex datasets if i try to model them with microformats ...
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gRegor` There's no http://indiewebcamp.com/RDF page, so I don't think there's many. Wiki additions with your experience are welcome, though.
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elf-pavlik gRegor`, ha, good point!
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tommorris Am happy to help. Just not right now. Busy. ;)
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elf-pavlik tommorris, cool!
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: I used to write RDF but then found that microformats is much easier and does the same thing
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, do you know examples of some complex datasets which use microformats? can construct graph from such data?
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: never needed to do that. Microformats only has stuff that people want to use on websites
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elf-pavlik tommorris, i can recall you from last Social WG teleconfs https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/invited-experts
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KartikPrabhu also what is a complex dataset example? I am sure I can write it in a microformats syntax ;)
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, could you start with https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json
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aaronpk how about start with something that is published on your site, elf-pavlik
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elf-pavlik soon i'll add places i visited, events participated in, people i know, wishlists of things i can give or receive etc
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aaronpk theoretical examples are not super useful, so I'm interested in things that you have actually published
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: what aaronpk said^^
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, i made mirror for the time server stays down http://elf-pavlik.wwelves.org/
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elf-pavlik no content negotiation though ...
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KartikPrabhu I am sure I have theoretical dataset examples that even RDF would find complex
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, of course but does it help us? ;)
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tommorris elf-pavlik: yep that is true
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, also next week i hope to get 2or3 out of those down https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/issues
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aaronpk cool, glad you got that up on a mirror for now!
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, I also need to publish data from my usage of public transport
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: actually most fields in that example you gave me have mf2 counter parts. Person = h-card Location = h-adr, id = uuid, name = p-name image = u-photo
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aaronpk that html page could easily be turned into structutred data with a few choice mf2 classes! and if there isn't an existing rel value or property name then those would make great suggestions
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: what is RDF helping you with, that some HTML+mf2 couldn't?
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elf-pavlik well, how do i express that i took trip on particular bus?
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elf-pavlik in RDF i could reuse http://vocab.org/transit/terms/.html
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elf-pavlik or help with https://github.com/OpenTransport/vocabulary
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aaronpk so the real question is what do consumers of this data need to do with the data? because you can always just write a sentence and people can read it
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: express for whom? people? then just write it as aaronpk said
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elf-pavlik analyze my usage of public transport to run it agains my records of contributions to such subsystem
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aaronpk that's why there haven't been many new vocabularies developed for indieweb conversations to happen, because it all happens at the people layer.
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elf-pavlik eg https://github.com/unmonastery/untransit/graphs/contributors
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: that's a great use case
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: if you want to use it only for youself then just make your own mf2 classes with h-x-* , with x denoting experimental
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, but why wouldn't I use RDF ?
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aaronpk I have similar structured data on http://aaronparecki.com/metrics which I eventually want to aggregate or count somehow but haven't done so yet
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elf-pavlik as you see people already do transit vocabs in RDF
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KartikPrabhu I wouldn't because it is complicated to author compared to mf2 wirting
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: if you really want to write RDF I won't stop you
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aaronpk the nice thing about mf2 is that it falls back to plaintext nicely. for example http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/09/17/102924/
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aaronpk if anyone were to reply to that and show the reply context, they'd render it as a note from me that says "Biked 2.2 miles in 11 minutes"
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aaronpk but if they wanted to, could actually parse the individual data on the page, like avg pace, total distance, heart rate, etc
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, i quess you know QS xtof :)
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tommorris I publish RDFa on tommorris.org. Take a look elf-pavlik. ;)
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tommorris I publish microformats2 too.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: that is a neat example! maybe you can give a image fallback of the map itself as a e-content or something?
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elf-pavlik tommorris, plus Mozilla Persona - awesome!
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aaronpk there should be a u-image for the map
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aaronpk u-photo sorry
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/09/17/102924/files/full.png
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah saw it now
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KartikPrabhu neat!
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aaronpk shows up in barnaby's reader and everything!
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elf-pavlik tommorris, cool, i put source of your pages to http://rdfa.info/play/
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aaronpk and he didn't even need to know about my "bike" vocab
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tommorris Bike vocabulary?
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aaronpk look at the other properties on the h-entry
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aaronpk http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fmetrics%2F2014%2F09%2F17%2F102924%2F
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elf-pavlik "distance": [ "2.2 mi"] so i still need to parse text to get data :(
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tommorris Units of measure are hard.
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elf-pavlik what data type you use for duration?
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aaronpk yeah there's well-defined units for time
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aaronpk other measurements are hard because you have to include the units
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aaronpk ISO8601 for time
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aaronpk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Durations
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elf-pavlik tommorris, https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Measurement
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aaronpk pdf;dr
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elf-pavlik pdf sucks!
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aaronpk don't give me a spec for web standards as a pdf lol
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, well i asked them once to turn pdf into html and they did http://schema.org/docs/actions.html
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tommorris Wow, a PDF on w3...
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tommorris Can we get W3C to ratify a standard described by a Flash SWF file? ;)
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KartikPrabhu why are units hard? <span class="h-measurement"><span class="p-type">length</span>: <data value="3" class="p-value">3</data><data value="m" class="p-unit">metres
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KartikPrabhu seems easier than parsing the ISOstuff which was a nightmare while adding to mf2py
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@elfpavlik "Wow, a PDF on @w3c ..." said @tommorris on #indiewebcamp http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-17/line/1410989521149 LOL ;-) @danbri https://www.w3.org/wiki/File:Schema.orgMeasurement.pdf @w3cmemes (twitter.com/_/status/512354221291614208)
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, i would use URI for meters
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aaronpk meters have a URI? wat?
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KartikPrabhu metres is a SI standard unit of length.... no need to use a URI for that
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KartikPrabhu a yard or foot maybe
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aaronpk lol
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KartikPrabhu or a furlong or something
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elf-pavlik what if someone abbreviates them to just 'm'
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: i did in my example already ;)
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KartikPrabhu see data-value :P
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: i think you got them backwards, <data value="meter" class="p-unit">m</data>
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KartikPrabhu if i say a legnth of 3m you don't think 3 minutes
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aaronpk the value of the unit should be the full name
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: either way :P
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: US or UK english?
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KartikPrabhu that is why I used m
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk SI doesn't actually require one or the other, says to use the local version
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KartikPrabhu SI does give you the short name as 'm' unambiguously though i think
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elf-pavlik talking about wolfs ;) https://twitter.com/manusporny/status/511625803155906562
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@manusporny The Semantic Sensor Revolution (and JSON-LD): https://medium.com/@dpjanes/one-url-the-semantic-sensor-revolution-58b6d8c86c0f (twitter.com/_/status/511625803155906562)
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elf-pavlik needs english++ ;)
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elf-pavlik just to clarify i don't need technologies to share pictures of cats (please take no offence) but to do some serious social collaboration http://www.w3.org/community/webcurrencies/
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elf-pavlik plus reputation/trust etc. http://polyeconomy.info/
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: we have been doing quite some serious collaboration using mf2 :)
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, great to hear it! :)
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KartikPrabhu like federated cross-site/cross-platform commenting
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KartikPrabhu and also "annotations" :P
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, awesome! but i still don't see it as *very complex* data
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KartikPrabhu <shrug> no one else does it :P
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Mark87 watch the video elf-pavlik posted the tweet about earlier. its good so far.
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elf-pavlik i see this one quite complex https://web-payments.org/specs/
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elf-pavlik Mark87, REST ?
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Mark87 https://twitter.com/mamund/status/479319909621440514
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@mamund RT @layer7: Video: REST, Hypermedia, and the Semantic Gap: Why "RMM Level-3 REST" is not enough - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkAt9XSOfaE (twitter.com/_/status/479319909621440514)
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: you meana complex problem, not complex data set
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Mark87 I should have just linked the video heh
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tommorris Blimey. I am gonna start a W3C meme. ;)
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aaronpk I don't see "*very complex* data" as a good thing :)
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Loqi yea
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: agreed
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, both http://goodrelations-vocabulary.org
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aaronpk if your data is that complex maybe you should work on simplifying the data model first ;)
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tommorris I should start a website: Tom drunkenly reviews W3C specs.
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elf-pavlik tommorris, LOL ;-)
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elf-pavlik + screencast
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: getting rich-snippets is not a complex problem
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elf-pavlik Mark87, also check out later https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB94dIamAQc
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KartikPrabhu or at least it is easy enough to do with mf2
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Mark87 elf-pavlik bookmarked
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KartikPrabhu laptop dying brb
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, let's say we continue conversation once i have more bit more complex data published using RDF ?
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elf-pavlik and really impressed by aaronpk metrics! :)
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elf-pavlik BTW
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aaronpk thanks!
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aaronpk there's all sorts of fun stuff there now
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elf-pavlik i plan to publish very detalied personal consupmtion/contribution logs
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elf-pavlik hi kirilind :)
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gRegor` tommorris: My Drunk W3C, a la My Drunk Kitchen
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@TheBestTechNews Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool ... - http://technews.doyoustillhateme.com/out-in-the-open-a-blogging-tool-that-lets-you-actually-own-what-you-post-on-facebook/ #IndieWeb #Twitter #WIRED https://twitter.com/TheBestTechNews/status/512358775454326785/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/512358775454326785)
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tommorris The only problem with drunkenly reviewing w3c specs is how I get my laptop past security in da club.
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elf-pavlik tommorris, i had no problems with it in places like http://muc.ccc.de/
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elf-pavlik not so much of drinker though ;) https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L52
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elf-pavlik afk, rolling...
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binbasti elf-pavlik: thanks for that link. https://iotdb.org looks great
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elf-pavlik binbasti, come over to http://get-d.net/ you can meet some folks working on http://www.riot-os.org/
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binbasti i'm sitting on a plane to sf right now :)
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elf-pavlik BTW next week i should have time to get some progress on https://github.com/elf-pavlik/remotestorage-jsonld-contexts
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elf-pavlik binbasti, jump jump!
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binbasti elf-pavlik: great! looking forward to that
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elf-pavlik i may give a go http://remotestorage.io/modules/code/files/contacts-js.html
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elf-pavlik and map it to http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf/
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binbasti yer, that was the plan anyway
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binbasti landing. cu
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elf-pavlik binbasti, i could also take a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card#Parser_Compatibility
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: I suggest that publishing data is not useful. It is one-sided. If anyone else is parsing and doing something with the data you publish that'll be agreat discussion
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, good point!
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aaronpk so this is interesting, in the past 17 hours I have received 2 legit webmentions, 1 junk test webmention from myself, and 290 spam pingbacks to endpoints from older than 5 minutes
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KartikPrabhu that is the thing that converted me to mf2 frankly, that both publishing and comsumption is easy
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rascul yeah mf2 is good
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KartikPrabhu and as a personal anecdote about how easy it is to comsume mf2. I could contribute to mf2py in less than half a year of learning python
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KartikPrabhu i don't think I can do that with RDF
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aaronpk oh interesting, a lot of the invalid webmention/pingback requests are GET requests
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: I am sure Python rdflib has issues that need work. ;)
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rascul KartikPrabhu i was processing mf2 with beautifulsoup4 before i discovered (or maybe someone told me about? mf2py
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KartikPrabhu rascul: exactly!
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aaronpk i'm gonna make it not log get requests
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: I need to sort that out too, last week I had an issue where indiewebify.me spammed me. Need to do a duplicate check or something
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Loqi ShaneHudson: tantek left you a message 2 days, 2 hours ago: you should stub http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=User:Shanehudson.net&action=edit&redlink=1 with an h-card (name, url), and add a list of what you're "Working On" as well as any "Itches"!
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: I have no motivation since I don't intend to consume RDF... selfdogfooding and all that
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: just show a HTML page on GET requests to your endpoint like: https://kartikprabhu.com/webmention which could be more useful from a UX pov
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aaronpk I already do
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aaronpk but it was also logging it
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KartikPrabhu oh I see :)
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elf-pavlik yay, may get access to VM and deploy my stuff again :) thanks to https://twitter.com/as250
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Mark87 wouldn't the most useful thing be to actually have a webmention form at the endpoint?
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aaronpk yes, see: http://aaronparecki.com/webmention
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: yes! that is what I was thinking of.
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aaronpk and several others do as well
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KartikPrabhu and like always aaronpk has beaten me to it
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bret elf-pavlik where did you get the sweet avatar painting/drawing?
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Mark87 @aaronpk KartikPrabhu haha I saw kartik's page and immediately thought of that
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elf-pavlik bret, http://www.yorokobu.es/moneyless/
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: I have a webmention form at the end of articles but will have to modify it to have a source field
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bret Heh nice! Is there an english transaltion? or just google translate
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu I need to find a way to implement webmentions somehow I think
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu very cool btw
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: what do you run on your site?
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elf-pavlik does webmention have nice sequence flow diagram? i played a bit with nice editor to render them from text https://stackedit-beta.herokuapp.com/viewer#!provider=gist&gistId=0977176e6f4e8e84d575&filename=webdpack-basic-sequence.md
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bret Mark87 lots of ways to do that, but still a bit of work from scratch
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KartikPrabhu as in backend?
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: to display comments?
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu bret I don't have a blog because I'm not much of a writer, but I have a feed reader I wrote from scratch and It would be cool to use webmentions to reply to articles I like from twitter or a new blog if I get one
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, first to learn how the plumbing works
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bret Mark87 do you take photos or tweet?
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Mark87 bret nope. I really don't write anything haha. I just read
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Mark87 bret im a lurker
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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KartikPrabhu everim my experience every question has a wiki page :)
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KartikPrabhu s/everim/in
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: in my experience every question has a wiki page :)
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Mark87 bret i'm an infrequent commenter I guess, but sometimes I like to interact
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bret Mark87 well commenting with your own site is still writing, and definately a rad development. maybe see if you can play with Shrewdness?
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: maybe begin by posting reply notes on your site
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gRegor` What is Shrewdness?
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bret barnaby is writing a feed reader that lets you comment, but it needs a micropub endpoint
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Loqi Shrewdness is a micropub-enabled reader web app, currently being developed by Barnaby Walters http://indiewebcamp.com/Shrewdness
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: my examples https://kartikprabhu.com/notes
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Mark87 bret ill check that out
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gRegor` From what barnaby said the other day, it's invite-only right now.
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bret im not sure if there are any getup and go micropub endpoints
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gRegor` His superfeedr bill is racking up, so not opening it up more at the moment
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ShaneHudson What's the correct way to do a page redirect on the wiki
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, good point again! once i read it all i'll make sequence diagram for future generations ;)
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bret ShaneHudson i forget syntax but google mediawiki redirect
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: pictures are always useful
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aaronpk ShaneHudson: #REDIRECT[[page name]] (or just look at an existing redirect and copy)
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gRegor` ShaneHudson: #redirect [[wikipage]]
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ShaneHudson Thanks :)
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gRegor` aaronpk beating us to things, as usual
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gRegor` ;)
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bret elf-pavlik what do you like to use to make sequence diagrams?
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elf-pavlik friend just showed me this tool which i played with making https://stackedit-beta.herokuapp.com/viewer#!provider=gist&gistId=0977176e6f4e8e84d575&filename=webdpack-basic-sequence.md
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shanehudson.net created /User:Shanehudson.net (+33) "Adding a redirect for my name" (view diff)
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu that's a very cool idea
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KartikPrabhu ooo making SVG sequence diagrams with embeded mf2 would be sweet!
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gRegor` elf-pavlik: When your main site is back online, you should sign in to the wiki and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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Mark87 I think the first thing I need to do is implement login with indieauth
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elf-pavlik gRegor`, i'll mark it as TODO
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j12t_ The "semantic web" has been superseded. Don't worry about it :-)
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j12t_ Wrong channel, sorry.
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KartikPrabhu j12t_++ for wrong channel but right comment
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Loqi j12t has 4 karma
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Mark87 j12t_ KartikPrabhu superceded?
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gRegor` semantic web 2.0?
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j12t_ You wish
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: in the sense that no one actually does the semantic web thing anymore do they?
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elf-pavlik calls tommorris for help :'(
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu ahh, well I would say no one ever really started using the semantic web
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: even worse then :)
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Mark87 what is indiewebcamp if not a semantic web movement?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indiewebcamp if not a semantic web movement" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=indiewebcamp+if+not+a+semantic+web+movement
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Mark87 lol loqi
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KartikPrabhu hence the philosophy here to implement what you need
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Loqi :)
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KartikPrabhu and worry about protocols and all that plumbing later
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu well that's just nice manners really
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KartikPrabhu and good practice
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Mark87 otherwise every coder and their pizza eating friend would be in here clamoring for everyone to adopt their half-baked idea for a specification
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shanehudson.net edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+1319) "Stubbing it out as Tantek asked." (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu so let those good manners serve as motivation for you to post notes Mark87
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Mark87 haha
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Mark87 I found my old wordpress blog and was actually amazed at how much I did write in it
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: maybe revive it and indiewebify it following /Wordpress
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KartikPrabhu more precisely: http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress#Adding_Indieweb_Support.2FElements_to_a_Wordpress_Site
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Mark87 my problem is I have a chicken and egg issue. I don't feel like writing to an audience of zero, but I won't have an audience if I don't write.
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: so starting with replies is a good starting point
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elf-pavlik gRegor`, once my website goes online again i'll add IndieAuth using Persona to it http://feeding.cloud.geek.nz/posts/indieauth-as-a-persona-identity-provider/
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gRegor` Awesome!
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu haha ok I get the point. i'll start something. Maybe i'll start using my Known page I started after watching TWiG
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shanehudson.net created /User:ShaneHudson.Net (+34) "Adding another redirect" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu yeah Known is great
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: have you started accepting webmentions on articles again?
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ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: Ah yes I have, I forgot to tell you! That *should* be working properly now :)
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bret Mark87, i started with 0 audience, and still have a small audience, but I try to capture things that I am interested for myself, and that others might find interestig or useful too, like if I solve a problem that required putting together of many other resources
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rascul Mark87 i write to an audience of myself, that way i know somebody reads it
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ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: Although still some improvements to make. And sending webmentions is quite buggy at the moment
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bret the main thing is creating something of value for yourelf
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ShaneHudson Hmm I need to open source my webmention plugin actually, will do that now
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bret or maybe those around you that show interest
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Mark87 bret rascul yes those are excellent ideas
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: did you change your URL structure. my webmention from https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/shanehudson-real-life still does not show up
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shanehudson.net edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+31) "Added https to implemented list" (view diff)
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Mark87 bret rascul i'll set a goal maybe, write at least a tweet's-worth a day
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bret has anyone tried to use twitter as a datastore?
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bret Mark87 I try to only write when have something to say
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rascul Mark87 if you have nothing to write about then i wouldn't bother writing
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bret but usually i dont write it down then forget
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: I probably also have an audience of <5 so who cares :)
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bret ha
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ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: I changed to https://shanehudson.net instead of http://www.
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elf-pavlik bret, https://twitter.com/kidehen must have tried ;)
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: I get some index.php?p=stuff for the URL
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ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: Same here, odd. Will have a look to see what's going on :)
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bret elf-pavlik hehe seems like a funny thing to try and do
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KartikPrabhu cool! also maybe consider treating webmentions to www. and no-www as the same
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KartikPrabhu should do that too
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bret im feeling the need for automatic posse in gitpub really soon
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elf-pavlik https://twitter.com/hashtag/Nanotation?src=hash
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shanehudson.net edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+127) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: see /microsyntax
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tommorris I have argued the toss over RDF and SemWeb in the past, elf-pavlik. Now there are things that occupy a more central part of my life. :)
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KartikPrabhu what is microsyntax?
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Loqi microsyntax refers to short text conventions for conveying specific semantic meaning, such as an "@" prefix indicating a (user)name, or "#" prefix indicating a hashtag (both conventions popularized by Twitter) http://indiewebcamp.com/microsyntax
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elf-pavlik #indiewebcamp rocks the house :D
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KartikPrabhu what is marginalia? elf-pavlik
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "marginalia? elf-pavlik" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=marginalia%3F+elf-pavlik
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KartikPrabhu aww come on Loqi?
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KartikPrabhu what is marginalia?
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Loqi Marginalia are interactions or responses to arbitrary parts of a post, in contrast to a traditional comment which refers to the entire post http://indiewebcamp.com/marginalia
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: could this be solved? using "what is" with a reference to a nick?
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techlifeweb I write stuff down on my blog mostly for me. I figure if I'm having the problem then someone else might as well. Kind of funny how often I've searched my own stuff.
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aaronpk i should just make the regex stop at a ?
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Loqi yea!
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KartikPrabhu Loqi has spoken
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elf-pavlik afk
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KevinMarks hm, salesforce $1m hackathon has a heroku category and specific prizes for open source - indieweb ideas? https://developer.salesforce.com/million-dollar-hackathon
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KartikPrabhu hmm someone could build a heroku indieweb site platform ala Known
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kylewm the last salesforce hackathon i heard about didn't get such good press
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bret what happened?
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kylewm bret: https://medium.com/@aliciatweet/the-dirty-secret-behind-the-salesforce-1m-hackathon-b839268fb82d
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, another dataset i want to play with http://mundraub.org/map
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, ^
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elf-pavlik i can imagine straigt forward path when using something like http://mundraub.org/map
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elf-pavlik i can imagine straigt forward path when using something like https://github.com/geojson/geojson-ld
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elf-pavlik needs to catch some sleep - 1AM CEST
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bret we'll be here tomorrow :)
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bret night
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elf-pavlik night bret, @all great vibes here, i look forward to hang aournd more :)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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KartikPrabhu welcome RaspberryPiGuy
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RaspberryPiGuy thanks!
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RaspberryPiGuy Would anybody be willing to help me setup Known on my LInux Mint box?
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RaspberryPiGuy I'm having trouble finding sufficient documentation
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kylewm bret: tl;dr is that they gave the $1 million dollar prize to someone who had been a salesforce employee for 9 years and had demoed the app long before the hackathon started, and then to deal with allegations of cheating gave a second $1 mil prize to developers from a company salesforce invested in
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KartikPrabhu RaspberryPiGuy: maybe others who have setup Known would know.... kylewm?
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kylewm RaspberryPiGuy: sure, have you read over http://known.readthedocs.org/en/latest/install/instructions.html
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kylewm you don't have to install from git anymore, as there is a proper zip release now on withknown.com
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bret kylewm lol
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RaspberryPiGuy actually I have not. I've read what was basically a repost of that though.
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KevinMarks right, so they're going to be really careful this year
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bret kylewm salesforece rubs me the wrong way. I hardly know anyting about them, but the whoe "no software" thing really bugs me
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KevinMarks though as an ex-salesforce employee maybe I shouldn't enter
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RaspberryPiGuy I'll try to follow those instructions and report back. thanks!
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bret Ha KevinMarks! the odds are in your favor so far
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elf-pavlik just noticed aaronpk on https://github.com/esri
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KevinMarks bret: I read that as "don't pay for software"
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KevinMarks salesforce sells services
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KevinMarks not software
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bret KevinMarks interesting, I read it as "just use our webapp!"
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bret again, totally uninformed about it
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kylewm RaspberryPiGuy: where are you getting stuck?
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RaspberryPiGuy well I was using nginx at first. I managed to get to the point where I specified the database info, but was getting errors connecting to it
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kylewm MySQL or Mongo?
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KartikPrabhu ugh databases
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RaspberryPiGuy MySQL
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kylewm ok, did you create the db and a user and grant the user privileges on the db?
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RaspberryPiGuy I'm using apache now though since nginx was confusing the crap out of me
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RaspberryPiGuy no, I could not create a database. I'm a total newb when it comes to databases.
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@Di93ig IndieWeb advocates launch Known so bloggers can be social and still control their content http://di93ig.com/2014/09/17/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ (twitter.com/_/status/512377239535509505)
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elf-pavlik example of IMO *complex dataset* and beta workbench to work with it http://generator.geoknow.eu/videos.html @KartikPrabhu @aaronpk
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KevinMarks "no software" was a slogan defined against Oracle/SAP etc who sell you software for huge $ then maintenance contracts for it to keep it up to date
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: what is the data? geo-locations?
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kylewm RaspberryPiGuy: so on the command line do "mysql -u root -p" and enter your password.
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kylewm CREATE DATABASE known;
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: for geolocation data representation see http://microformats.org/wiki/h-geo
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kylewm GRANT ALL PRIVILEGES ON known.* to 'yourusername'@'localhost' IDENTIFIED by 'yourpassword';
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RaspberryPiGuy kylewm: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (2)
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kylewm and then you have to load the schema... mysql -u yourusername -p < schemas/sql/mysql.sql
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kylewm RaspberryPiGuy: I think that means mysql isn't running
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kylewm try "sudo service mysql start" ?
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RaspberryPiGuy kylewm: it says unrecognized service. Do I need mysql-server installed? synaptic won't let me install it because it can't resolve dependencies. I'll try mongo if that's easier.
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RaspberryPiGuy I do have mysql-client installed though
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kylewm yeah you need the server
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kylewm I think you're better off trying to get MySql working than using Mongo
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kylewm https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/510895753875566592
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@benwerd @TheDavidJohnson We actually recommend MySQL. Known started with MongoDB, but MySQL is more portable, and other benefits. (twitter.com/_/status/510895753875566592)
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RaspberryPiGuy kylewm: ugh. ok. I'm determined to make this work.
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kylewm RaspberryPiGuy: let's go to DM for debugging linux stuff
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RaspberryPiGuy ok how do I do that?
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tantek what kind of UI do people have for deleting comments (e.g. those received via webmention?) ?
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gRegor` tantek: I don't have delete yet, but I do have a checkbox for "Display on site" so I can remove them from the frontend.
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tantek so you store one bit in your data per comment saying whether to hide them or not?
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tantek KevinMarks: thanks for posting http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/homebrew-website-club - could you post a POSSE copy on FB also?
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tantek (I think that has to be done manually with Known for events)
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gRegor` Correct.
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tantek what is hashcash?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "hashcash" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=hashcash