#indiewebcamp 2014-10-01

2014-10-01 UTC
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@npdoty @joeld regarding DDoS mitigation, I've proposed a change to the webmention spec that I think would help: https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/35 (twitter.com/_/status/517102869653499904)
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KartikPrabhu oh hai Loqi
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tantek Loqi missed whatever you guys said since 17:05
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Loqi is done
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tantek apparently
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tantek also between 16:07 and 17:05 - or was it just quiet then?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: we did talk since 17:05 I can provide logs to update Loqi
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KartikPrabhu if i figue out how to get logs out of my client
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tantek KartikPrabhu: cool - don't worry for now - aaronpk was here so he has backups
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KartikPrabhu cool
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tantek but was it really quiet between 16:07 and 17:05?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: Loqi missed everything but tweets between 16:01 and 17:17
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tantek !tell npdoty your X-Forwarded header usage proposal https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/35 sounds interesting, could you add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Brainstorming along with a sample curl command line that shows how to do it?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu tantek: npdoty added it here: http://indiewebcamp.com/DDOS#Forward_originating_IP_address
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npdoty indeed I did
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Loqi npdoty: tantek left you a message 54 seconds ago: your X-Forwarded header usage proposal https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/35 sounds interesting, could you add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Brainstorming along with a sample curl command line that shows how to do it?
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tantek but that's too far out of the way. actual spec changes should go on #brainstorming
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npdoty thanks, Loqi, I saw
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tantek on /Webmention
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npdoty sure, I can add it there too
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KartikPrabhu tantek: one naive I idea I had was, when A sends a webmention to B, A could include a "secret_code" in the POST request, which B can use while using GET to verify the mention by A, then A allows access only if the secret_code matches .... ?
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KartikPrabhu npdoty: ^ also see :)
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KartikPrabhu similar to authorization codes in micropub
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tantek KartikPrabhu: for private posts?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: no for preventing DDOS type things
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tantek but I'm thinking that could work for webmentions from private posts where you want the receiver of the webmention to be able to verify it
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KartikPrabhu afaik a third party won't have these secret codes right? if both parties are using HTTPS
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tantek KartikPrabhu: downside - "secret_code" enables MASSIVE per receiver spamming
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KartikPrabhu so the DDOS attacker will fail due to not having a secret code
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KartikPrabhu tantek: but if I send the code through HTTPS only to the people I want to webmention... ?
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kylewm doesn’t a GET request for the same URL work without a secret code?
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tantek i.e. if I set secret_code to same as target, then I can webmention EVERYONE and simply include a temporary link to secret_code in EVERY response to a query with a secret_code
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tantek presto - I've just faked my way to showing up on *everybody's* posts without including links back to them
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hmm I was thinking the webmention receiver only does a GET if it gets a secret_code with it
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npdoty KartikPrabhu, in the DDOS attack, the attacker is the one who sent the ping (he acts as sender, or person A), so he would choose the secret code
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's my point - that's the scenario in which the abuser wins
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KartikPrabhu npdoty: yup and the attckers code does not match the one I have set, so I reject the GET equest immediately
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tantek receiver does a GET with the secret_code in it, and sender includes in the reply a custom HTML page that includes a link to secret_code which happens to be the same as target. then receiver goes oh there's my target, verified.
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ben_thatmust_1 /nick ben_thatmust__
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ben_thatmust_1 well then
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you're missing the point, the attacker *is* the one that set the secret_code in the first place
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KartikPrabhu tantek: aaah i see, if the sender changes the HTML based on secret code... yes, it is a spam waiting to happen... i did not think of that :)
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ben_thatmust_1 so reading back i agree comments are what we get in response to a post
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tantek yw :)
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ben_thatmust_1 a reply is a post with in-reply-to
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tantek yay ben_thatmustbeme !
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Loqi giggles
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ben_thatmust_1 thread has been confusing things
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KartikPrabhu judas priest there are too many ben... s to auto complete right now
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ben_thatmust_1 but so has "context"
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ben_thatmust_1 since in the dictionary definition, a context is both text before and after
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KartikPrabhu did not follow that discussion but for me "context" is posts that this post is in response to, and "response" is the responses to this post
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ben_thatmust_1 i didn't really like the term history for the recursive in reply-to chain
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tantek if we know the context, then what is the protext ?
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tantek ;)
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KartikPrabhu is that a word?
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ben_thatmust_1 oh god, KartikPrabhu, no more terms to confuse us
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KartikPrabhu lol :P
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ben_thatmust_1 just like the oposite of congress is progress?
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ben_thatmust_1 s/opo/oppo/
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Loqi ben_thatmust_1 meant to say: just like the opposite of congress is progress?
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KartikPrabhu and the opposite of contest is protest ?
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ben_thatmust_1 in-reply-to chain is the least ambiguous i can think of
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ben_thatmust_1 we drop any "history" as it doesn't make sense
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmust_1: not to worry, you guys can decide the "best" terminology for the wiki and I can keep using what makes sense to me on my site #indieweb ;)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I suggest we drop all *-thread history-* and *-chain
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ben_thatmust_1 honestly, i am not sure any of these threads need their own page.
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ben_thatmust_1 exactly
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tantek well that would be my fault
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ben_thatmust_1 and only refer to recursive reply-context ?
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tantek plural
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tantek recursive reply-contexts
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KartikPrabhu i've been known to violate an indieweb definition or two anyway
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ben_thatmust_1 or 'full reply context'
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tantek thus keeping it clear that reply-context is *one*
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npdoty.name edited /webmention (+966) "/* Brainstorming */ using x-forwarded-for to mitigate DDoS abuse" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust_1 good point
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tantek I'd avoid "full" as it presume you have full knowledge of something
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tantek just as "new xyz" is bad and "old xyz" is bad
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npdoty tantek, done.
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tantek everything old was new once, and everything new becomes old eventually.
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tantek such are temporally fragile naming
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ben_thatmust_1 now i'll just have to implement mine to pull in all replies to anything in the recursive reply-contexts
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ben_thatmust_1 just to screw things up :)
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tantek.com moved /history-thread to /recursive_reply-contexts
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+101) "/* history thread */ recursive reply-contexts" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ KartikPrabhu: example of URL that is different with a slash: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/ vs http://indiewebcamp.com/irc
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KartikPrabhu aah yes that is what I was looking for :) ty
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tantek.com edited /context-thread (-82) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /context-tread (+10) "r" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ tantek - it's not about temporally fargile, it's talking about it in ralation to the post you're displaying
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KevinMarks__ it things in its past that it is a response to, and things that happened later that responded to it
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tantek KevinMarks you're confusing two threads here in IRC :P
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KevinMarks__ maybe thats why this is getting so messy
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tantek naming errors:
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tantek using "full" - presumes you have full knowledge of something
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ben_thatmust__ ack, just lost a good chuch of that conversation from a reload
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tantek using "new something" - everything new becomes old eventually
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tantek using "old something" - everything old was new once, and do you mean the most recent old something or the older old something?
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tantek combining those last two: both "new something" and "old something" are temporally fragile naming errors
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KevinMarks__ agreed
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KevinMarks__ I was talking about history vs context vs replies
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kylewm definitely still living with a NewGraphArranger class from 2008
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tantek.com edited /recursive_reply-contexts (+284) "update phrasing" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks, enjoy: https://www.google.com/search?q="new+new+new+thing"
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: ok I think I fixed it all - please review. :) /reply-context and /recursive_reply-context
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tantek.com created /recursive_reply-context (+38) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+12) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ recursive reply-contexts" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ nice http://mattchamlee.withknown.com/2014/indieweb-and-syndicating-yourself-posse
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ben_thatmust__ that looks a lot cleaner
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KevinMarks__ so indieweb it hurts: http://tilde.club/~ford/
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KartikPrabhu that might also be the picture anti-indieweb people have to the indieweb
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+154) "in-reply-to hack, and error messages completed" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+0) "sorting TODO list" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust__ wew, knocking out more of my todo list
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tantek.com edited /MySQL (-137) "/* Ben Werdmuller */ nope. MongoDB" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MongoDB (+17) "benwerd is a current MongoDB user, but plans on switching" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust__ he's been planning on switching for quite some time if I remember
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kylewm mko was making mongo sound pretty great the other day
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ben_thatmust__ tantek, reading back on this vouch stuff now... haven't gotten all the way through it, but wouldn't it only take one person who has auto accepting webmentions to be able to spam everyone in their friends network
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ben_thatmust__ or rather, once one spam link gets it, it could spread to all that site's friends, and then that sites, friends. and once that is accomplished you basically have the task of trying to fight a virus
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ben_thatmust__ in the human body sense that is
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ben_thatmust__ i think an XFN 'friend list' would be useful, then you know its not some errant link or a "look at this site, its funny but also has spam" link
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KartikPrabhu is adactio.com down for anyone else?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Not working for me
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KartikPrabhu time to send a DM... wish I had private posts working already
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ben_thatmust__ KartikPrabhu, me too, that should get interesting though and probably tie in to a list of contacts idea
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KartikPrabhu yes and indieauth :) only see post if you login with your domain
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KartikPrabhu seems I can't DM adactio on twitter because he does not follow me... interesting
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ben_thatmust__ well yes, but i mean, its annoying if i want to send a message to someone or worse multiple people, I have to look up their url constantly
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ben_thatmust__ it would be nice to just have a drop down and say "post this privately to A,B,and C"
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmust__ : of course. same as auto-linking in notes :)
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KartikPrabhu how would one send a private webmention?
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ben_thatmust__ auto-linking in notes?
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ben_thatmust__ you send a webmention but when the server pulls that page, it returns a
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ben_thatmust__ actually
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ben_thatmust__ there is a wiki page
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GWG http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmust__: yeah you @mention someone in a note and it auto-links to the appropiate profile fom your address book
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ben_thatmust__ ahh i see
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ben_thatmust__ that would be cool
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: already does this. should work the same for private posting :)
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ben_thatmust__ /indieweb-messaging has you polling twice for every request. I really wish there were some way to say in the webmention 'this is a priv message, i'll need an auth key'
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ben_thatmust__ you could infer it from it being a reply to a private post, but thats all
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ben_thatmust__ alternatively i could just always include the auth keys when polling from a site I have a key for, but then i don't know what ones are private or public
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KevinMarks_ Can't it day so in the header?
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kylewm.com edited /indie-config (+1225) "/* See Also */ poorly written stab at documenting the indieweb examples so far" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust__ saying that its private
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ben_thatmust__ certainly, just need something standard for that. I know a number of people don't like to do things in the http headers as they cannot do that on static sites, but it could be done in meta tags or in microformats perhaps
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ben_thatmust__ i wouldn't mind showing the viewers of the post that it was intended for them and someone else
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ben_thatmust__ or do you mean the webmention say that its private when it sends
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ben_thatmust__ anyway, its late here, i should get to bed
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: you mean you're not already linking with rel=follow to external reply permalinks in your comments display?
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tantek I should have clarified, a rel=nofollow link from C to A does not count as a vouch
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Loqi agreed.
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tantek I love it when Loqi double-checks my protocols. :)
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Loqi grins profusely
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acegiak tantek: did my webmention for this get to you? http://acegiak.net/2014/09/30/tantek-com-braindumped-vouch-webmention-antispam-protocol-extension-indiewebcamp-comirc2014-09-28t1411927207068-thoughts-httpindiewebcamp-comirctodaybetabottom-tantek/
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tantek good q - have to check my webmention.io :)
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tantek verified 2014-09-30T13:20:31+00:00!
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acegiak cool
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tantek acegiak - in short - it makes it: 1. less work on the part of the receiver.
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tantek 2. allows a *dynamic* 2nd degres to comment on your stuff - beyond XFN tree whitelist
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: sounds sot of like the objection i was making against "vouch"
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KartikPrabhu just like I don't go back and see if my comment passed moderation or not, it is unlikely that i'll go back, look for a suitable vouch and resend a webmention
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acegiak tantek: oh. i get it in the context of manually adding webmentions
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acegiak tantek: can you explain the dynamic bit a little more?
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tantek it's dynamic because every day people you've linked to in the past, themselves link to new folks all the time - thus dynamic. even if you're not doing anything yourself.
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acegiak tantek: ah ok. so you're suggesting that non-xfn links also count
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tantek bingo
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tantek non-rel-nofollow links
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acegiak ahhh
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tantek :)
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tantek the point is you can *still* moderate, delete, block *after* that
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tantek this is just to auto-filter all the obvious spams from people you don't know who are just trolling you for linkbacks etc.
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tantek it won't stop people you sort of know from spamming you - the response to that is to give them a hard time socially. that is, if you have a social tie with them already, them spamming you is straining that social tie
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tantek and that aspect no code/protocol will deal with - you have to deal with that human to human
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acegiak yeah
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acegiak oh my god
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acegiak "Why doesn't whisperfollow seem to be pulling anything from mf2 pages?"
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acegiak if there's no rss feed detected it calls the mf2 parsing function on the bookmark
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acegiak and then the function attempts to parse... the rss feed
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acegiak ugh
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tantek wat
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KartikPrabhu what is whisperfollow?
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Loqi WhisperFollow is a WordPress based social reader create by acegiak that currently supports H-Entry, RSS, Atom and PubSubHubbub http://indiewebcamp.com/Whisperfollow
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KartikPrabhu reader for Wordpress nice
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acegiak I've become addicted to it though
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GWG acegiak: Addictive dogfooding...hmmm...
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acegiak like in a "checks every few minutes" way
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GWG Sounds like Flappy ird
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GWG Bird
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tantek you created your own dopamine hook ;)
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acegiak apparently!
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acegiak GWG: if you're using it I'll push a fix for the mf2 thing shortly
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GWG I haven't had a chance. Been busy
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acegiak EXCELLENT! so you won't have been disappointed by that stupid bug
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GWG I tried it for a moment, temporarily disabling Semantic Linkbacks
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acegiak GWG: I pushed a fix to both for the collision
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GWG acegiak: By the way, more people seem to be using the Taxonomy plugin
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acegiak awesome!
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GWG Have to figure out what's next.
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acegiak GWG: is there something you want it to do that it doesn't do at the moment?
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GWG Well, I want to redesign the theming to be a bit more flexible.
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GWG I have some random thoughts about changing the way the automatic content embed works.
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acegiak ah ok
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GWG I want to refine it, and add in the ability to build other things off it.
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voxpelli !tell tantek,barnabywalters,kylewm My quick stab at a web component using X-Tags can be found here: https://github.com/voxpelli/indie-action-component Not sure if X-Tags is the right way to go, Polymer might be preferable. (Or perhaps a non-Web Component polyfill)
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Loqi voxpelli: barnabywalters left you a message 8 hours, 25 minutes ago: did you publish your indie-action webcomponent code anywhere? I’d love to add it to shrewdness for people who don’t have micropub enabled!
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Loqi voxpelli: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 12 minutes ago: could you provide the URL where you have (had?) <indie-action> markup plus web componenets support e.g. with reply and pay actions?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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voxpelli Was that the right way to have loqi deliver a message to multiple people?
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Loqi :)
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@rizzardcore SOME #indiedev and #indiegame and #indiegames and #indieweb people are some of the worst fucking people on earth... https://twitter.com/rizzardcore/status/517202763051433984/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/517202763051433984)
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@TheIndieSloth RT @rizzardcore: SOME #indiedev and #indiegame and #indiegames and #indieweb people are some of the worst fucking people on earth... http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/517202766666936321)
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@indiegamesdevel RT @rizzardcore: SOME #indiedev and #indiegame and #indiegames and #indieweb people are some of the worst fucking people on earth... http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/517202925459087360)
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@GameDevRobot RT @rizzardcore: SOME #indiedev and #indiegame and #indiegames and #indieweb people are some of the worst fucking people on earth... http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/517203521905504256)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/724885424/1566815933547350/1298010021 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@acegiak Got https working on http://acegiak.net and http://machinepspirit.net for #indieweb and prepping for - http://acegiak.net/2014/10/01/5495/ (twitter.com/_/status/517213815809667072)
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Loqi [mention] http://haverholm.com/2014/10/01/has-the-facebook-exodus-begun/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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acegiak ok what do tantek.com and waterpigs.com have in common that is making my mf2 parsing not work...
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acegiak /s/s.com/s.co.uk/
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@virtualinfocom 3D #Runner4Runner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.virtualinfocom.runner #indieweb #gamedev (twitter.com/_/status/517223817538580482)
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@TheIndieSloth RT @virtualinfocom: 3D #Runner4Runner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.virtualinfocom.runner #indieweb #gamedev (twitter.com/_/status/517223820886048769)
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@GameDevRobot RT @virtualinfocom: 3D #Runner4Runner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.virtualinfocom.runner #indieweb #gamedev (twitter.com/_/status/517224657720594432)
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /IndieAuth (+203) "/* Issues */ added placeholder for possible issue with RDFa" (view diff)
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@GDevBroadcaster @ virtualinfocom: 3D #Runner4Runner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.virtualinfocom.runner %E2%80%A6 #indieweb #gamedev (twitter.com/_/status/517225125419450368)
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@Parodossy virtualinfocom: 3D #Runner4Runner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.virtualinfocom.runner %E2%80%A6 #indieweb #gamedev (twitter.com/_/status/517225239286398976)
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@GameDevRobot RT @Parodossy: virtualinfocom: 3D #Runner4Runner https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.virtualinfocom.runner %E2%80%A6 #indieweb #gamedev (twitter.com/_/status/517225411718025216)
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@jhendrickx2 Krijg meer grip op je online data met Known http://mediaatelier.wordpress.com/2014/10/01/krijg-meer-grip-op-je-online-data-met-known/ #mediacvoa #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517230663255486464)
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek: you might want to review this edit: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=14000&oldid=13140&rcid=14042
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@HealthEugene earned $2.39 from selling my own data via @DataCoup last month - not about the money but the principle.. :) #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/517252357835739136)
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ben_thatmust hmm, okay so only on links without nofollow. I don't always put no-follow links in articles I post.
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kodfabrik.se edited /indie-config (+112) "Added a link to my proof-of-concept indie-action web component" (view diff)
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voxpelli !tell kylewm Regarding how to fallback if no indie configuration is present, I believe one would have to use a timeout on the request, but perhaps there are better ways.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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SkippyUK part
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (-203) "RDFa's rel problem belongs on a page about "rel" not IndieAuth" (view diff)
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barnabywalters I didn’t really understand that issue. Does RDFa “break” if you have links with rel attributes on the page?
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Loqi barnabywalters: voxpelli left you a message 6 hours, 4 minutes ago: My quick stab at a web component using X-Tags can be found here: https://github.com/voxpelli/indie-action-component Not sure if X-Tags is the right way to go, Polymer might be preferable. (Or perhaps a non-Web Component polyfill)
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+203) "/* Issues */ RDFa - incompatible rel processing, cite longer explanation a microformats.org" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmustbe: in general you should NOT put rel=nofollow on your links - that's the point - you're linking to something you think has relevance and that someone you're likely ok with commenting on your posts
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Loqi tantek: voxpelli left you a message 6 hours, 10 minutes ago: My quick stab at a web component using X-Tags can be found here: https://github.com/voxpelli/indie-action-component Not sure if X-Tags is the right way to go, Polymer might be preferable. (Or perhaps a non-Web Component polyfill)
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tantek cool
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 3 hours, 39 minutes ago: you might want to review this edit: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=14000&oldid=13140&rcid=14042
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tantek done
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: what vouch adds is the implicit "ok to comment" on people that your links themselves link to, which is a reasonable approximation. It's unlikely that those you link to themselves link to spam.
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tantek or if they do, *then* you can a) tell them directly, and then link to them with nofollow.
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acegiak tantek: I've fallen back to using your atom feed because I can't work out why whispefollow won't read your h-entries
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@SenseiOrlando Self-Publishing Q&A with Orna Ross and Joanna Penn: http://www.youtube.com/user/indieauthoralli A regular ALLi Member... https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DlJmZoKhDL3w&ct=ga&cd=CAIyGmRmM2Q5NmY3NWE3ZDY3Nzg6Y29tOmVuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNGvH9cMrCIW93Mit3Vhklr6hXRg0Q&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed (twitter.com/_/status/517295673092218880)
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barnabywalters acegiak: might it be because tantek’s homepage h-entries are children of a top-level h-card?
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barnabywalters in fact, that’s wrong — they’re children of a h-feed which is a child of a h-card
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acegiak barnabywalters: shouldn't be. I'm using your findMicroformatsByType function
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acegiak https://github.com/acegiak/WhisperFollow/blob/master/WFCore.php#L237
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acegiak to just get all the h-entrys
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barnabywalters acegiak: hrm okay, that works fine for me
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barnabywalters acegak: but $feeditem will be a list of h-feeds, whereas later on you’re expecting it to be a single object: https://github.com/acegiak/WhisperFollow/blob/master/WFCore.php#L246 https://github.com/acegiak/WhisperFollow/blob/master/WFCore.php#L258
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barnabywalters not sure if that’s related to this issue?
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acegiak barnabywalters: it doesn't seem to be creating an issue for any other mf2 pages?
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barnabywalters acegiak: strange. It’s worth fixing regardless, as that conditional will always fall back to $page as it is :) Other than that I can’t see what might be wrong
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barnabywalters do you have a PHP debugger set up? if not, you could interactively test that function locally with tantek’s site and see what’s going on
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barnabywalters http://psysh.org/ is a really handy tool for this — like a minimal ipython for PHP
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barnabywalters acegiak: btw, mf-cleaner also has some functions for more robustly getting microformats properties, e.g. rather than assuming e-content with $mf[‘properties’][‘content’][0][‘html’], M\getHtml($mf, ‘content’, [optional fallback]) will look first for [‘html’], falling back to html-escaping the value if it’s a plaintext property
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barnabywalters (and falling back to [optional fallback] if the ‘content’ property doesn’t exist at all)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek_ tantek___ that all makes sense to me, i'd make sure to note that the vouch could also be a link from within your own site as well. if I linked to an article, i may not record that, but i'd still want to accept mentions from them. Also note that this really only works as a generated white list, its just a first level to spam filtering
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+178) "stat items to calculate" (view diff)
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cweiske bear, indiestats.com login fails with my id server:
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cweiske Invalid URL in "client_id" parameter: scheme missing
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bear oh poo
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cweiske &client_id=bear.im
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bear ok, I thought I fixed that
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bear when I get off of the train i'll take a look at that
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acegiak barnabywalters: oh, that's cool. I should look into using some of those functions
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cweiske.de edited /website-analytics (+31) "/* Log Analyzers */" (view diff)
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acegiak and yeah I should set up a debugger, just haven't got around to it yet
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barnabywalters acegiak: I think netbeans does interactive PHP debugging quite well, but my favourite is jetbrains PHPStorm, which you can get a free copy of if you’re working on open source software
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cweiske in that case you also may only use it to work on OSS software
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acegiak I'm doing everything over ssh
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cweiske ssh -Y :)
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barnabywalters acegiak: you don’t have a copy of your code running locally?
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barnabywalters doesn’t work on any non-OSS PHP :) only python for work
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jenmontes.com edited /web_hosting (+124) "/* Virtual Private Server */ Added Atlantic.net's new $0.99 a month VPS" (view diff)
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: do you use atlantic.net? they look like quite a good deal
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barnabywalters especially the XS or S packages, which is slightly better than my current provider but for much less
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: i don't, but i'm specifically interested in how to get lower-income people on the indie web so it seems like a good entry-level option
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cuibonobo i personally use digitalocean. they've been excellent
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barnabywalters yeah, $12 a year is a pretty great price for a VPS
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /vouch (+2788) "first pass at vouch protocol summary" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek, first pass at /vouch protocol summary, please review
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters I’m also cautiously interested in whether the various free domain name registrars could be used to make it easier for people to get on the indieweb
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barnabywalters e.g. .tk
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barnabywalters if they have an API for registering domain names, hosted services like known could offer free signups with your own domain name, completely config-free
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barnabywalters just type the desired domain name in a text field when signing up
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: i've been researching that as well but from a different angle: getting dynamic DNS sites like noip.com to point to a server
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cuibonobo the only catch is that you need to 'renew' your domain name every 30 days, but i just tried it and it seems to work: jenmontes.sytes.net
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: interesting — have you come across http://pagekite.net/? I’ve used it in the past with raspberry pis
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barnabywalters the creator (Bjarni Einarsson) came to IWC UK 2013 and demoed it there
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cuibonobo yes! i've used it to get around dumb firewalls. it's genius.
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barnabywalters such a good tool
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@JDCurriewriter Self-Publishing Q&A with Orna Ross and Joanna Penn: http://www.youtube.com/user/indieauthoralli A ... https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DlJmZoKhDL3w&ct=ga&cd=CAIyGmRmM2Q5NmY3NWE3ZDY3Nzg6Y29tOmVuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNGvH9cMrCIW93Mit3Vhklr6hXRg0Q&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter #selfpub #indiepub (twitter.com/_/status/517324252844806144)
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@AlphonsoPSpain RT @JDCurriewriter: Self-Publishing Q&A with Orna Ross and Joanna Penn: http://www.youtube.com/user/indieauthoralli A ... https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DlJmZoKhDL3w&ct=ga&cd=CAIyGmRmM2Q5NmY3NWE3ZDY3Nzg6Y29tOmVuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNGvH9cMrCIW93Mit3Vhklr6hXRg0Q&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter #selfpub #indie… (twitter.com/_/status/517324814756110336)
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barnabywalters it looks like a company called freenom have developer plans and an API which allows programmatic registration of free domains: https://my.freenom.com/details/free_domains.html
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cuibonobo hmm!
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cuibonobo but what do we know about the longevity of these domains?
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cweiske price vs. who is the product
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barnabywalters as far as I can tell, if you don’t pay you can register them for up to 12 months, and then renew for free two weeks before the end of the renewal period
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barnabywalters cweiske: yeah exactly, hence being quite cautious of these services
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barnabywalters there’s no point giving people free domains if myname.tk is less reliable and you have less control than myname.withknown.com
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barnabywalters if nothing else, it would be a wonderfully compelling demo, to actually have a working “sign up for a personal website” service with a single field
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barnabywalters it would show that “this is how easy it can be, and should be”
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petermolnar in theory a tld domain could be used for free, non-commercial, personal sites
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petermolnar but as far as I know, there's no intention going around doing it
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cuibonobo ok. i'm researching the dot TK company in particular. seems like the government of Tokelau gave them exclusive registration rights for their country, and any proceeds will go toward development projects on the Islands of Tokelau
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cuibonobo one of their income generators is expired domains: http://www.nic.tk/en/aftermarket-1.html
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petermolnar I have a long-shot idea: what if there really was a tld domain, with as much free entries as many DNS servers you're willing to host to serve the tld zone?
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cuibonobo other revenue streams for dot TK include a $75 a month subscription service for brand protection to make sure trademarked stuff isn't squatted on
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cuibonobo and then the regular stuff you'd expect from a domain provider: hosting, DNS, etc.
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cuibonobo besides monetizing expired domains, nothing on their "business opportunities" section seems too fishy
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: .tk also charge huge amounts of money for very short domains (e.g. if tantek wanted t.tk he’d have to shell out thousands of $$$)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /personal-domain (+839) "added section on free domain names, noted potential caveats, freenom dev plan and API" (view diff)
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: ah! i didn't see that on their site. interesting.
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: petermolnar: ^^^ I started a section on free domain names, please add any clarifications/caveats/brainstorming
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barnabywalters it would be awesome to get this working with known, for example
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petermolnar ok
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waterpigs.co.uk created /personal-domains (+28) "Redirected page to [[personal-domain]]" (view diff)
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cuibonobo i just tried out the dot TK registration process and their confirmation email sent me back my password in cleartext. lol. wat
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: ugh seriously
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petermolnar.eu edited /personal-domain (+348) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: and i got a 502 error the first time i clicked the confirmation link. hardly the kind of infrastructure i'd like to make an app depend on, but it's free!
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: heh — maybe one of the other free registrars are better
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barnabywalters cuibonobo++ for actually trying free registrars out
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Loqi cuibonobo has 10 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme by the way cuibonobo, I now display error messages when you login and it fails, haven't gotten terribly detailed with it yet though
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cuibonobo ben_thatmustbeme: feedback win! huzzah!
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GWG Morning
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cuibonobo good morning!
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ben_thatmustbeme morning
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GWG What is going on?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "going on" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=going+on
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petermolnar I feel a Loqi patch had to be done soon :)
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ben_thatmustbeme cuibonobo, eventually I want to make my own auth endpoint, which will warn you if you don't have an auth endpoint specified. OR if you are getting there and it isn't your proper endpoint.
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waterpigs.co.uk created /going_on (+16) "“what’s going on?”" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i was just about to do that myself
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ben_thatmustbeme what is new
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Loqi Welcome to news about the IndieWeb where recent notable articles about the IndieWeb are cited and linked to keep you up to date http://indiewebcamp.com/new
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GWG Trying to figure out how to prioritize the Indieweb things that I want to do
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ben_thatmustbeme nods
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ben_thatmustbeme i usually go with easiest when i don't have much time, and most fun when i do
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GWG Well, not everything is fun per se
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme after that its by necessity
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG do you have your list public
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GWG Not in any organized fashion
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@localherodotbiz Can the @withknown folks comment on what they are doing that can't be done currently via wordpress with plugins? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517341359707922433)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme, one thing that I want to do is iterate and refine what I have that works.
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GWG Not as exciting as new features
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jenmontes.com edited /personal-domain (+1416) "/* Free Domain Names */ Added research on free domain registrars" (view diff)
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jenmontes.com edited /personal-domain (+2) "/* Free Domain Registrars */ Fixing internal link" (view diff)
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jenmontes.com edited /personal-domain (+52) "/* Free Domain Registrars */ Added countries for good measure" (view diff)
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kylewm withknown needs a FAQ
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Loqi kylewm: voxpelli left you a message 9 hours, 29 minutes ago: My quick stab at a web component using X-Tags can be found here: https://github.com/voxpelli/indie-action-component Not sure if X-Tags is the right way to go, Polymer might be preferable. (Or perhaps a non-Web Component polyfill)
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Loqi kylewm: voxpelli left you a message 4 hours, 51 minutes ago: Regarding how to fallback if no indie configuration is present, I believe one would have to use a timeout on the request, but perhaps there are better ways.
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, i know exactly what you mean
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kylewm voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 8 karma
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jenmontes.com edited /personal-domain (+141) "/* Free Domain Registrars */ Added note about what is displayed in WHOIS information" (view diff)
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davidmead aaronpk: just got OwnYourGram working with my Known account. Nice :-)
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aaronpk_ davidmead: nice!!
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Loqi aaronpk_: tantek left you a message on 9/30 at 1:40pm: all of tantek_ and tantek___ and tantek_otp are leftover connections from ?beta Join - server might need rebooting to let go of those connections.
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Loqi aaronpk_: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 9/30 at 1:41pm: ben_thatmust_ is leftover too
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aaronpk_ tantek_: haha ok
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Loqi rofl
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davidmead aaronpk: I couldn’t get it working with my WP blog, so I may move over to a self-hosted version of Known soon
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aaronpk_ is there a micropub plugin for wordpress now?!
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davidmead aaronpk: not that i know of, that’s why it didn’t work :-(
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aaronpk_ oh ok
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aaronpk_ thought you had found one that wasn't working
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barnabywalters greetings aaronpk_!
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aaronpk_ hi barnabywalters!
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davidmead no. and i couldn’t get schnarfed Instagram importer to work either. He lloked at it and it was an Instagram issue
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aaronpk_ oh yeah ownyourgram doesn't import yet. i do need to work on that cause I need to import my own photos
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davidmead i used http://instaport.me/ to get a dump of my stuff as a .zip, just in case
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aaronpk_ I also made http://flickstagram.org a long time ago which pushes them all to flick
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aaronpk_ r
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davidmead nice
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ben_thatmustbeme cool
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davidmead i’ll have to try that
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ben_thatmustbeme didn't know about that one
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aaronpk_ I was pushing photos so fast to flickr that the API guys noticed it!
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ben_thatmustbeme hey, I was thinking about including the Short_url in my posts
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aaronpk_ I ran in to one of them at a hackathon and he was like oh you're the guy that made that app?
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ben_thatmustbeme but don't know what the correct markup for that would be
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davidmead i think this is now the pain point of #indieweb - wrestling your content from silos and import it in a meaningful way to your blog. retaining the meta info & dates
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aaronpk_ I spent a loooong time making sure to grab all the metadata from instagram when it imports to flickr
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ben_thatmustbeme well with micropub the idea would be it should iterate over each of those and just ship them out
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jonnybarnes the micropub page mentions short urls
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barnabywalters davidmead: one of the pain points :)
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aaronpk_ hashtags in the caption show up as flickr tags, location is included, all the comments show up in the flickr description
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davidmead barnabywalters: lol, yeah
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jonnybarnes ben_thatmustbeme: the micropub page uses rel="shortlink"
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aaronpk_ I publish "shortlink" on my pages too
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aaronpk_ http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fnotes%2F2014%2F09%2F30%2F1%2Fdrhorrible##shortlink
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davidmead aaronpk: cool thing about yr ownyourgram & #indieauth was I just changed my homepage URL in Twitter bio to http://davidmead.withknown.com/, and it worked like a dream :-)
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aaronpk_ ha cool
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk_ side note, need to escape double quotes in the meta tags. the og:title tag is broken
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aaronpk_ oh crap
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aaronpk_ thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme i probably have the same bug, not sure
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aaronpk_ man google analytics is confusing the crap out of me, it's all different than it was 5 years ago. I think I might just turn it off on my site cause I don't even know what to look for anymore
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aaronpk_ basically I just want to know what pages are getting the most traffic
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ben_thatmustbeme there is a definite downside to ownyourgram... even the terrible photos of my co-worker end up on my site
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aaronpk_ ben_thatmustbeme: simple solution: stop taking terrible photos :P
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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@401matthall If I've changed my domain name how do I point #bridgy to my new domain name? #bridgy #indieweb #known (twitter.com/_/status/517352862230544385)
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aaronpk_ methinks we're gonna see a lot of questions about "how do I ____ after I change my domain name" thanks to known providing subdomains by default
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk_ you might be right. does known offer redirects to new domain names if you change off
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ben_thatmustbeme ?
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aaronpk_ that's a good idea
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aaronpk_ that's a very responsible thing to do as a service provider that supports indieweb principles
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aaronpk_ is gonna add that to http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly
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bear is indieauth.com feeling ok? (or is it my amtrak-train wifi connection?)
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aaronpk_ bear: looks fine to me
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bear k, i'll blame the wifi
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barnabywalters aaronpk_: indeed, it’s going to be an interesting case for apps which consume indieweb content to handle
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aaronpk_ yes also that!
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aaronparecki.com edited /friendly (+260) "provide HTTP redirects if someone changes their domain (thanks ben.thatmustbe.me!)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /going_on (+22) "fix double redir" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme oh and aaronpk_ as far as google analytics, if its been that long have you updated to the new tag?
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aaronpk_ new tag?
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, they changed the code on their JS tag a little while back
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aaronpk_ i have no idea lol
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ben_thatmustbeme the old one is still supported, but you get more options
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tantek the flip side of free domains is lowering the barrier for spammers to generate new domains on the fly :/
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 2 hours, 12 minutes ago: pass at /vouch protocol summary, please review
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ben_thatmustbeme it should have something about upgrading to "universal analytics tag"
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aaronpk_ oh maybe I did
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: will do! thanks for the initial write-up!
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barnabywalters tantek: indeed, which demands some sort of identity check e.g. requiring a unique email address, and then (for example) limiting people to one free domain per email
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tantek I'd like to see a way to bootstrap (in the general sense) to a new domain *without* previously owning an email or phone number.
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tantek s/to a new/to owning a new
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Loqi tantek meant to say: I'd like to see a way to bootstrap (in the general sense) to owning a new domain *without* previously owning an email or phone number.
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aaronpk_ sounds perfect for spammers :(
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, and aaronpk Behavior -> Overview is what you are looking for
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aaronpk_ ben_thatmustbeme: I don't have that option
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tantek voxpelli++ for writing up his <indie-action> web components implementation from IndieWebCampUK!
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Loqi voxpelli has 9 karma
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jonnybarnes does this PHP make sense? if(($var !== null) && ($var !== '')) {}
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voxpelli tantek: I should write up even more about it, it's still on my todo of doing :P
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aaronpk_ wtf google analytics provides demographic data?
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barnabywalters yep, it’d be cool to find some way of registering a domain without requiring legacy contact information
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tantek !tell davidmead now that you're making so much progress with your Known, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so show up all nice in the logs - e.g. compare nearby statements here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-01/line/1412180621975
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk_, they have for a while, but it was hacky, now its just adding 1 line in the tracking tag
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk_ if you are missing that you are probably outdated. go into admin / it should have upgrade info there
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tantek speaking of /friendly - has anyone shown / sent that page to the Ello folks?
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aaronpk_ I don't know if I actually want to enable that
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ben_thatmustbeme you don't have to do the demographics stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme they piggy back on some other company for it, thats why you have to add the line
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ben_thatmustbeme i forget who
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aaronpk_ i still can't even find my top pages anymore
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aaronpk_ I just want to drop it completely. I bet I can write my own tiny analytics that gives me list of top pages pretty quick.
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that should be pretty simple
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aaronpk_ oh and I guess seeing referers is nice too
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fwr what's a good minimal open indie-lytics solution?
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aaronpk_ I tried piwik a while ago
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aaronpk_ it's not exactly minimal, but it's self-hosted and comparable to GA
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aaronpk_ http://indiewebcamp.com/analytics
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fwr i dont even log. once it scrolss off stderr, poof
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fwr thx
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ben_thatmustbeme figured, my top 3 pages. 1: /, 2: /new (my micropub client), ad 3: /note/2014/9/12/1/_ because tantek replied to it
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aaronpk_ ha
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fwr love when referers are displayed on-page. obviously something spammers would like to tohugh
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aaronpk_ that's basically waht comment display is
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tantek fwr - easy, only display referers from your (dynamic) "whitelist" :)
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@willplayforfood @bike @gln @aisforanne @robrasmussen you must be under the influence of the latest indie trend. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (see Alternatives) (twitter.com/_/status/517358874983030785)
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@kyle_wm @401matthall just need to change your social media bio to point to the new domain and reauth on https://brid.gy #indieweb @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/517358896499802112)
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tantek love it: https://twitter.com/bike/status/517342005068705792
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@bike @willplayforfood @gln @aisforanne you're right. to hell with this. I'm rewriting the streaming delivery apps in HTML. /@robrasmussen (twitter.com/_/status/517342005068705792)
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tantek the more people we have writing code to natively read/write HTML for the web for their apps, the more holes we poke in the theories that you always "need" XML/JSON/RDFa/databases/YAML/etc. for "storage" for all apps.
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jancborchardt hmm – tantek is erinjo around in this channel at all? Just wanted to let here know that our »Open Source Design« devroom for the FOSDEM conference in Brussels was accepted – and it would be cool to have her there: https://twitter.com/jancborchardt/status/517350150574837760
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@jancborchardt Open Source Designers rejoice:Our »Open Source Design« devroom at #FOSDEM was accepted!https://fosdem.org/2015/news/2014-09-30-accepted-devrooms/ (twitter.com/_/status/517350150574837760)
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tantek jancborchardt: she pops in from time to time. And congrats on getting the design devroom accepted!
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jancborchardt tantek: thanks! Are you at FOSDEM at all? Or are there any other IndieWebCamp folks you think should attend especially the OS Design devroom? I’m already in touch with Brennan
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tantek I'm not unfortunately. Brennan (bnvk in the channel) is the right contact as he ran IndieWebCamp 2014 in Berlin (as you know :) )
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aaronpk_ maybe caseorganic would be up for it? (not sure her travel schedule around that time)
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tantek maybe also ping Harry Halpin - he seems to be in Europe often and may be going to FOSDEM
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tantek he's the W3C staff contact for the W3C Social WG https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg
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tantek (boy do they / we need a ton more UX / user / design focus more than protocols :) )
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jenmontes.com edited /personal-domain (+604) "/* Free Domain Registrars */ Added note about how ToS for free domain registrars could be dangerous" (view diff)
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20141001-175029.txt "Uploaded via email by "Commerzbank AG"<no-rep*@*2.4shared.com>"
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bret aaronpk_: is [[File:20141001-175029.txt]] a form of spam? posted by email?
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bret or tantek ^
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cuibonobo hah! looks like it *was* some kind of virus / malware but the email host switched it with a text file: http://indiewebcamp.com/images/0/07/20141001-175029.txt
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cuibonobo how is post-by-email even allowed?
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tantek ahem, aaronpk ;)
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aaronpk_ :)
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aaronpk_ it's useful for uploading photos from events
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benwerd had so many requests for that
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 9/28 at 8:31pm: I presume from http://werd.io/2014/thedavidjohnson-we-actually-recommend-mysql-known-started-with-mongodb-but that you're using MySQL on werd.io? If not please correct me here: indiewebcamp.com/MongoDB
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aaronpk_ probably needs some sort of verification tho
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tantek already taken care of
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tantek benwerd :)
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aaronparecki.com deleted /File:20141001-175029.txt "Spam"
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tantek ! tell KevinMarks perhaps next time you have a timely tweet re: Ello, perhaps suggest that they add IndieWeb support per http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly
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tantek !tell KevinMarks perhaps next time you have a timely tweet re: Ello, perhaps suggest that they add IndieWeb support per http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@adactio Tweaking my indieweb posting interface. https://dribbble.com/shots/1748272-Checkboxes-mobile (twitter.com/_/status/517376606521004032)
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aaronpk_ adactio++
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aaronpk_ awesome!
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Loqi adactio has 5 karma
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adactio aaronpk_: Cheers!
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hober :)
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tantek nice hit targets you got there adactio
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tantek adactio++
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Loqi adactio has 6 karma
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tantek welcome hober!
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adactio tantek: Thanks. Maybe I should post a gist/jsbin with the CSS.
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tantek yes!
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aaronpk_ or even a blog post :D
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KartikPrabhu adactio++ for big sliding checkboxes :)
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Loqi adactio has 7 karma
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tantek hober, go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so you show up all nice in the logs! e.g. check out: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-01/line/1412187301197
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: i'm trying to understand the `vouch` extension. are you saying that you can vouch for someone if you have their site on a list where the link *does not* have rel=nofollow?
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aaronpk_ I think you should ask tantek about that. I haven't caught up with the "vouch" work yet.
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tantek cuibonobo: no list. just a link without rel-nofollow
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /IndieAuth (+111) "/* RDFa */ added link to solution" (view diff)
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tantek from C to A
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@equivalentideas RT @adactio: Tweaking my indieweb posting interface. https://dribbble.com/shots/1748272-Checkboxes-mobile (twitter.com/_/status/517378385727602688)
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tantek nice of elf to find a workaround to the issue he found!
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KevinMarks_ Tantek I tried unmunging ello's json to h-feed yesterday, but their permalinks aren't in it
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Loqi KevinMarks_: tantek left you a message 11 minutes ago: perhaps next time you have a timely tweet re: Ello, perhaps suggest that they add IndieWeb support per http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly
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KevinMarks_ http://feed.unmung.com/ello?ello=cshirky
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KevinMarks_ So to do it I'll need to parse their html
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tantek.com edited /YAGNI (+70) "/* See Also */ shaners' example" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: having to parse their HTML and their invisible sidefiles and match things up - where have I heard that before? ;)
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gRegor` tantek, KevinMarks: I @'d one of the Ello devs yesterday. No response yet. https://ello.co/gregorlove/post/0LGJ_01RwAKKrB5iDfqO1w
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cuibonobo tantek: ok. the problem with that is that a spammer could potentially do `source=http://spam.com&target=http://aaronparecki.com/some/post&vouch=https://google.com/+aaronpk`
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ben_thatmustbeme cuibonobo, that would only work if google.com/+aaronpk linked to spam.com
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gRegor` Only if https://google.com/+aaronpk has linked to spam.com before, if I understand correctly
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tantek cuibonobo nope - https://google.com/+aaronpk does not link to spam.com
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tantek vouch fail
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ben_thatmustbeme and aaronparecki.com acccepted any vouch from google
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ben_thatmustbeme which i would not recommend anyway
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tantek gRegor`: not quite, not "linked to spam.com" before but *actually links to spam.com now*
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: aaronpk likely has linked to google.com
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tantek thus using google.com as vouch is reasonable
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tantek however this does raise an issue for our IRC logs
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ben_thatmustbeme also a reason I would not trust indiewebcamp.com at all either
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tantek I suggest that any hyperlinks in any statements from anyone in the logs who is *not* in /irc-people have rel=nofollow place upon them, so people can't use the logs for vouching
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aaronpk_ KevinMarks_: there are no permalinks in the JSON feed? That seems like... bad design
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: why?
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danlyke yeah, I think sites/implementers need to be super cautious about who they use as vouch sites; I won't trust every site I link to.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, anyone could edit the wiki and then use that as their vouch
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danlyke Heck, in moments of weakness I've linked to sites like sfgate.com and Huffington Post, it's quite possible that advertisers on those sites will spam me with WebMentions.
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: and there's exactly zero spam on the wiki right now
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gRegor` If a link has rel=nofollow, it shouldn't be used for vouching, correct?
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ben_thatmustbeme "right now"
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ben_thatmustbeme and...
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: given that edits show up here - I expect them any additions to disappear within seconds
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ben_thatmustbeme <Loqi> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Post-by-email * uploaded "[[File:20141001-175029.txt]]": Uploaded via email by "Commerzbank AG"<no-rep*@*2.4shared.com>
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Loqi :)
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: e.g. try and find a spam link on Wikipedia even
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KevinMarks_ There are permalinks with db ids in, but not the long hex strings they actually use
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gRegor` Speaking of spam, think some just got uploaded :)
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that got cleared out
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tantek gRegor`: no that was just ben_thatmustbeme quoting loqi
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gRegor` Oh. Hah
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tantek danlyke - can you show non-rel-nofollow links from huffpo or sfgate to advertisers?
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gRegor` drinks more coffee
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tantek and note that that takes *money* to do, so it's still a sufficiently high barrier to typical web spam
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tantek if you get a well known brand trying to spam you, you can a) block them (black list), b) embarrass them by posting about it with a rel=nofollow link
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, for that matter, the same is true of google though. Just because I link to google, does not mean i trust it as a vouch. google.com/+spam is under google's domain, but I am not about to trust anything from there
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tantek such bad press is not worth it to them
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tantek so danlyke, you're talking about different kinds of actors than those we're fighting against
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: ok I'll challenge you to find non-rel-nofollow spam links on google.com - go for it
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tantek posit: they don't exist
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TysonBrooks KevinMarks: what were question were you answering from me? I just seen I had mIRC still opened and had a notification from you saying: "they do at http://stream.withknown.com/"
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tantek IRC logs are the current lowest barrier
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tantek until we rel=nofollow any links from anyone not listed in /irc-people
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ not sure where to put that request
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ben_thatmustbeme my biggest concern with using any link i don't put rel=nofollow on is puts the burden on me to worry about who i link, rather than the other way around which was what this was for. maybe i am being overly cautious, but I see this as a shortcut through any extra spam filtering, so I want to make sure what is getting through is as clean as possible
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cuibonobo ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 19 karma
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: no burden, do it lazily.
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aaronpk_ tantek: interesting
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tantek if you ever get a spam link via a vouch, go see who vouched for it, and then give them a hard time, up to and including replacing all your links to them with rel=nofollow
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aaronpk_ wouldn't it make more sense from a publisher perspective to have to explicitly mark up the links that *should* be used for vouching instead? (e.g. add markup to the links from people who *are* on irc-people)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, to clearify, do you mean i have to have linked to the exact page, or linked to somewhere on the site?
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aaronpk_ (caveat: I haven't been following the vouch logic completely)
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tantek what's much more likely is that it's an old blog post, with a link to an expired/squatted domain, and your friend you linked to will be happy to be made aware of the link to fix!
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danlyke tantek, I'm not sure what bad actors we're going to be fighting, I'm just saying that blog authors are going to have to be selective about which external sites they allow to be vouch sites.
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tantek danlyke - those that spam pingback currently
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tantek simple
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gRegor` Yeah, I was just thinking we could rel=nofollow all links from IRC logs, then just use /irc-people
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tantek not advertisers that *buy* advertising. sheesh
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: i would definitely prefer an explicit whitelist to being watchful of what does / doesn't have rel-nofollow
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tantek cuibonobo: you can do an explicit whitelist *now*, without vouch, and you likely should if you like the whitelist approach
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tantek aaronpk - re: "explicitly mark up the links that *should* be used for vouching " nope nope nope - too much burden.
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cuibonobo tantek: indeed! i was only looking through the vouch extension to see if it somehow put less burden on the receiver's end, but sadly that isn't the case.
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tantek don't worry about those you link to, just assume that when you link, you're linking to someone you consider reasonably legit.
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danlyke tantek, the amount of malware attempts delivered through ads in sites I read (and potentially link to) is high, so I assume there'll be lots of overlap. But most of those ads are currently served via Ajax inclusion, not in the raw HTML.
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tantek like I said, lazy block
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tantek cuibonobo: no vouch can't put less burden, it's a protocol *extension* :)
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tantek danlyke - a-ha! we are saved by non-curlable AJAX including technique usage :)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, you mean that the vouch would only have to be in the same domain as something you linked to correct? not the exact page?
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tantek correct
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ben_thatmustbeme its creates too much concern for any site that is a silo though
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: simple then, rel=nofollow all links to silos ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme actually, i have a link to facebook that has rel=me
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tantek which isn't such a bad idea
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tantek btw - all silos use rel=nofollow now on *all* links from people
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tantek so silos can't be used as vouch links anyway
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tantek (sad trombone)
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ben_thatmustbeme not so, on their user account pages
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danlyke yeah, I currently drop Pingback/Trackback/Referers on the floor, so I'm less worried about spam than DDOS amplification.
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ben_thatmustbeme and only current silos
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yes so, on their user account pages
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tantek e.g. Twitter
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danlyke Which is really up to the developer of each blog system to be smart about which external sites they let be valid vouch sites.
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I challenge you to find a counter example
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cuibonobo tantek: https://ello.co/gregorlove
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aaronpk_ rel="me nofollow"
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, a spammer sets up a user account, twitter.com/spammer with rel=me back to their site. they send me webmention with vouch = twitter.com/spammer, I link to twitter.com/dissolve33 with rel=me
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ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah
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ben_thatmustbeme damn you aaronpk!
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cuibonobo ello doesn't have any rel-nofollow on its link to gRegorLove.com
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ben_thatmustbeme if i forget once though in a post, i am now open to any spam from twitter
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gRegor` Nor a rel=me. Fail, ello.
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ben_thatmustbeme thank you cuibonobo, perfect example. if i link to ello right now without a rel=nofollow, (i forgot) now anyone with an ello account can spam me
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tantek a-ha Ello is new at this, they'll learn. until then, link to them with rel=nofollow. done.
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ben_thatmustbeme i think its better off as a list of sites that i trust. You can implement that as any site you link to
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gRegor` If you get Ello spam, then you can add the nofollow that you forgot.
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: twitter has nofollow on links from twitter.com/spammer back to their site
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tantek so that vails
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tantek s/vails/fails
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Loqi tantek meant to say: so that fails
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tantek haha vails = vouch fails
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ben_thatmustbeme what is vails
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "vails" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=vails
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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gRegor` Fail ello = Faillo
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aaronpk_ ben_thatmustbeme: did you just tantek tantek?
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gRegor` What is lazy-block?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "lazy-block" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=lazy-block
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tantek slowly steps away from the keyboard.
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gRegor` tanteking++
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Loqi tanteking has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk_ basically, yes
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ben_thatmustbeme brb
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gRegor` Surprised Ello doesn't support hashtags, too.
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@nobantu CountDown 2 LateTicket's 4 #IIW XIX Register http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/ & join us 4 #VRM #UMA #indieweb #identity #IoT &OTHER conversations! (twitter.com/_/status/517386269337612290)
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gRegor` I don't give Ello very long to last. Maybe a year.
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danlyke gRegor` Ello is *really* early stage, there's a lot of basic functionality they haven't gotten to yet.
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gRegor` Understood
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@tomwiththeweath RT @nobantu: CountDown 2 LateTicket's 4 #IIW XIX Register http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/ & join us 4 #VRM #UMA #indieweb #identity #IoT &OTHER conv… (twitter.com/_/status/517386734330724353)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek. its also non-trivial for you to verify that you linked to a site, not without storing every link you ever made that doesn't have a rel=me
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danlyke That's not meant to counter your prediction for their longevity at all :-)
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danlyke ben_thatmustbeme It just requires a *cough* database :-D
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aaronpk_ you mean a text file?
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tantek lol
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ben_thatmustbeme i think thats fine as a way to pre-populate your list of acceptable sources, but I think thats personal preference
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ben_thatmustbeme oh god, not that again
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danlyke ;-)
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ben_thatmustbeme database, no database. CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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aaronpk_ i think we are doing a pretty good job of that actually
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tantek aaronpk - text file for explicit whitelist (user curated), /database-cache for tracking what/who you've linked to. presto, best of both.
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: "learn about the controversy" :)
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gRegor` Yeah, the improvements to /database-antipattern recently have been great, IMO
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed. they have
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tantek s/learn/teach
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Loqi tantek meant to say: ben_thatmustbeme: "teach about the controversy" :)
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tantek actually: "teach the controversy" ;)
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aaronpk_ what's the parenthesized text for under "community split"?
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ben_thatmustbeme that original page was quite opinionated, I like the inclusion of the community split section
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cuibonobo you know. i'm still hung up about the rel-nofollow thing. i just checked time.com and they don't add rel-nofollow to their links
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ben_thatmustbeme cuibonobo, links to what though?
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tantek cuibonobo: any bad links from time.com?
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't see spam links on time.com
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tantek aaronpk - parenthesized text to indicate why it is earlier than it should be in pure sort order
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tantek specifically, highlighting systems that multiple people have installed and are using on their primary sites
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tantek s/systems/projects
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Loqi tantek meant to say: specifically, highlighting projects that multiple people have installed and are using on their primary sites
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cweiske bear, indiestats.com during login: Internal Server Error
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cweiske The server encountered an internal error and was unable to complete your request. Either the server is overloaded or there is an error in the application.
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bret aaronpk_: what do you think about voicing irc-people?
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aaronpk_ sure
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aaronpk_ I don't really know how tho
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cuibonobo tantek: mostly links to twitter profiles for authors. i found an article with a link to the cdc. i don't think they add nofollow to anything though.
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tantek bret - what's the use-case for voicing? :P
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aaronpk_ bret: could you write something up on /irc in a "voice" section maybe?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, i would be fine with you implementing any non-relnofollow links, but I think it would be best to prefer an XFN list of some sort. as I won't implment it for all links
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bret :/ maybe have loqi /msg chanserv and set a flag?
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aaronpk_ the wiki would be a good place for use case too
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bret tantek: differentiating people who are on irc-peopple and who are not?
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bret tantek: motivation
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tantek ah - visibly showing who's on irc-people
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aaronpk_ IIRC the use case was to incentivise people to add themselves to irc-people
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tantek good one
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: you're confusing the two checks that a vouch receiver must perform
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tantek B->C and C->A
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@shelholtz Just wrapped up recording FIR on Tech #2 as @danyork's guest. Topic: The IndieWeb, Known, and Ello. Watch for it tomorrow on @firpodcast. (twitter.com/_/status/517388339125948416)
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tantek C->A is a simple load C, check for non-rel-nofollow link to A
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@seanbohan RT @nobantu CountDown 2 LateTicket's 4 #IIW XIX Register http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/ & join us 4 #VRM #UMA #indieweb #identity #IoT &OTHER... (twitter.com/_/status/517388413230923777)
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bret tantek: also moderation benefits too but that isn't terribly needed right now
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tantek B->C is the up to you piece, including XFN list etc. whatever whitelistish type approach you prefer
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@Phil_Comtek RT @seanbohan: RT @nobantu CountDown 2 LateTicket's 4 #IIW XIX Register http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/ & join us 4 #VRM #UMA #indieweb #identity #I… (twitter.com/_/status/517388508357738496)
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gRegor` Not sure voice is much of a incentive to add yourself to irc-people
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tantek BTW - ben_thatmustbeme only minor complaint about your /vouch write-up so far, you mixed up (swapped) A and B from my description in IRC which could be confusing
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, exactly what i'm saying, but if someone grabs the wrong link because the only place i test for B->C is my XFN list, then they are SOL
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bret gRegor`: for some people it might be, but otherwise its just for differentiating people
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tantek gRegor`: semi-agreed. the logs are more incentive. but maybe for some?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, sorry, I was copying from /webmention
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tantek and yeah, quickly looking at a list of user in an IRC client is faster than checking to see if someone is in /irc-people
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aaronpk_ if nothing else it'll make it so tantek and I aren't the only ones who look different here
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tantek good point aaronpk
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gRegor` Hehe
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ben_thatmustbeme regrets handing over the keys to #indiechat :P
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cuibonobo what is voice?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "voice" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=voice
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gRegor` Haha
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cuibonobo asking for a friend
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tantek what is audio?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "audio" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=audio
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gRegor` What is asking for a friend?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "asking for a friend" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=asking+for+a+friend
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aaronpk_ shakes head
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ben_thatmustbeme tanteking galore
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gRegor` What i— jk
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cuibonobo google says it allows you to talk when +m is on
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tantek It looks like we don't have a page for "audio" yet, however *6* pages link to it! https://indiewebcamp.com/Special:WhatLinksHere/audio Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=audio
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aaronpk_ tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 87 karma
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cuibonobo but i dunno what +m is for
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tantek moderation?
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tantek what is +m?
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Loqi messaging refers to one user sending another user a message (memo, letter, etc.) http://indiewebcamp.com/m
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tantek haha
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gRegor` moderation, yeah
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cweiske so you want to force people to add themselves to irc-people just to ask a question in this channel=
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cweiske ?
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gRegor` No
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aaronpk_ no
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aaronpk_ we wouldn't prevent non-voiced people from being able to talk
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tantek cweiske, only if we run into irc spam/deluge problem
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gRegor` Without +m on, it would just display the IRC user list differently.
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cuibonobo has +m mode ever been on in this channel?
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aaronpk_ no
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gRegor` voiced users get a +v and are sorted higher in the list. non-voiced appear below them.
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tantek which we haven't yet - only isolated incidents of nutters
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gRegor` (depending on the IRC client, of course)
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aaronpk_ do people have to be registered with nickserv to be +v?
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gRegor` No
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't believe so
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tantek aaonpk - I don't think so, I think any ops can grant +v
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tantek thus perhaps we need to grant Loqi ops
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danlyke tantek, "only isolated incidents of nutters": Oh, sorry, my bad, I'll dial it back :-)
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gRegor` Try it, aaronpk: /mode username +v
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cuibonobo i dunno. seems to me like you're getting back into that "creator", "blogger", "apprentice" nonsense
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tantek danlyke - you're definitely not isolated ;)
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bret maybe setting the flag with chanserv might require registration
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aaronpk_ is not connected through the aaronpk account right now
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bret (for autovoice)
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bret or just have Loqi set +v
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aaronpk_ yeah Loqi should be able to do it. gonna require some ugly hacking of Loqi though
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bret Sorry Loqi
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Loqi :)
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gRegor` Haha, danlyke ;)
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tantek the problem with +v on someone not registered with nickserv is that it might not be the person that added themselves to /irc-people
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ben_thatmustbeme other issue is, once anyone is voiced they could +v anyone else can't they, or does that depend on room settings
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bret true, but thats a problem with IRC
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme: I don't think so, or was not aware of that setting.
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tantek no it's a problem of using +v to indicate that someone is who they say they are in /irc-people
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tantek +v people cannot +v others
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tantek only ops can
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aaronpk_ is there a way to tell if someone is registered with nickserv?
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tantek yes
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gRegor` "is logged in as X" shows in whois
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gRegor` Probably a more direct way, too
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tantek /msg Nickserv INFO aaronpk
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gRegor` s/Probably/There is probably/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: There is probably a more direct way, too
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aaronpk_ so I could only +v people if they are also registered with nickserv
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bret thats is fair
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tantek yes
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@paulsq Aral Balkan's "indieweb" social network runs on Mac OS X https://ind.ie/ #somuchforindependence (twitter.com/_/status/517391097426083840)
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gRegor` aaronpk_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1682920/determine-if-a-user-is-idented-on-irc
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gRegor` int status codes, easier to process. :)
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aaronpk_ nice
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aaronpk_ also the response contains the nick and int, so I don't need a bunch of async code to handle it
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gRegor` Oh good, more ind.ie / indieweb conflation. ^
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cuibonobo oh good, another social network -___- ^
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gRegor` Oh good, another caret ^
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cuibonobo :D
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gRegor` :)
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tantek caret > stick
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gRegor` http://sadtrombone.com
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gRegor` tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 88 karma
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tantek There is no indieweb social network. There is the whole web we use as a social network.
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KartikPrabhu too much smiling... get back to work everyone :P
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aaronpk_ so basically when someone joins, Loqi would do an "ACC" on their nick to find if they are registered with nickserv. If so, would then check the irc-people list and if they are present, would +v them.
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gRegor` Ah, KartikPrabhu is back to continue the beatings until morale improves. ;)
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KartikPrabhu :D
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gRegor` What are you working on, KartikPrabhu?
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cuibonobo i would be very interested in the technology used to provide private p2p sync. unless they've partnered with BitTorrent?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you working on, KartikPrabhu" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+working+on%2C+KartikPrabhu
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tantek aaronpk - would it make sense to also only link / avatar people in the logs if their nick is registered? is there some way to capture in the logs "this person had +v when they spoke" ?
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: see Loqi response ;) ^^
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tantek oh I got this
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gRegor` Le sigh
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aaronpk_ oh man you guys
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aaronpk_ you know that in our work channel, Loqi asks people "What are you working on?" several times per day
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tantek wait for it
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tantek.com created /you_working_on,_KartikPrabhu (+43) "r" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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aaronpk_ it's funny to see people do that to each other here
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gRegor` Haha
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tantek What are you working on, KartikPrabhu?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/you_working_on,_KartikPrabhu
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aaronpk_ oh man
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tantek boom
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aaronpk_ https://donereports.com/
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tantek what are you working on, gRegor`?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you working on, gRegor`" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+working+on%2C+gRegor%60
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tantek tag you're it
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gRegor` Dangit.
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aaronpk_ this wiki is getting nuts
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gRegor` I am working on transfering a WordPress site from wpengine.com
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gRegor` What are you working on, Loqi?
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tantek oh you're going to make me do it huh?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you working on, Loqi" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+working+on%2C+Loqi
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gRegor` You are the wiki-master
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gRegor` ;)
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aaronpk_ you know I can make a Loqi regex for this
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tantek.com created /you_working_on,_gRegor` (+43) "r" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm still mad at loqi
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gRegor` Loqi could pick out a line from our user page "working on" maybe? Heh
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ben_thatmustbeme what is ben_thatmustbeme
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ben_thatmustbeme" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme LIES
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tantek.com created /you_working_on,_Loqi (+24) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk_ /what are you working on,? (.+)\?/ -> look up nick in irc-people and link to #Itching on their user page
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tantek aaronpk - not quite, because people have different sections
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tantek Itching, Working On, Ideas, Interests
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tantek what are you working on, aaronpk?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you working on, aaronpk" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+working+on%2C+aaronpk
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aaronpk_ well now that you've enumerated them, could just check for which one is present :)
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gregorlove.com created /wiki-master (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek gRegor`: I defer to tommorris
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tantek.com created /you_working_on,_aaronpk (+46) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` who is ben\_thatmustbeme?
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tantek aaronpk - I expect more variants, since there have been 4 variants for 5 people
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gRegor` Loqi quits
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ben_thatmustbeme what is is ben\_thatmustbeme
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for " is ben\_thatmustbeme" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=+is+ben%5C_thatmustbeme
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danlyke who is on first?
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ben_thatmustbeme we should probably move all that nonsense in to #indiechat
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Loqi I agree
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ben_thatmustbeme problem with ?beta page, its pushing non-topic stuff back here
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tantek Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 302 karma
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@CVOAntwerpen RT @jhendrickx2: Krijg meer grip op je online data met Known http://mediaatelier.wordpress.com/2014/10/01/krijg-meer-grip-op-je-online-data-met-known/ #mediacvoa #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517395364786487297)
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@thierrymarianne Back to #ExpoWave... discussing #LinkedData and #IndieWeb (among many human/robots topics) for the future with @xtof_fr @kirilind (twitter.com/_/status/517395747810320384)
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tantek aaronpk, re: more regexes for Loqi - yes please! per http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi#Ideas
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gregorlove.com edited /ind.ie (+17) "Indienet section (blank)" (view diff)
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@brambruggeman RT @jhendrickx2: Krijg meer grip op je online data met Known http://mediaatelier.wordpress.com/2014/10/01/krijg-meer-grip-op-je-online-data-met-known/ #mediacvoa #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517399772765126656)
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gregorlove.com created /Indienet (+29) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /ind.ie (+161) "/* Indienet */ uh, I dunno. it's a start?" (view diff)
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@gregoire I d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ know why you say g̶o̶o̶d̶b̶y̶e̶ Ello I say goodbye http://indiewebcamp.com/Ello #IndieWeb #silo (twitter.com/_/status/517401062253555712)
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@NewsDataScience RT @gregoire: I d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ know why you say g̶o̶o̶d̶b̶y̶e̶ Ello I say goodbye http://indiewebcamp.com/Ello #IndieWeb #silo (twitter.com/_/status/517401846915543040)
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@beandog76 Woah. Database-antipatterns. Mind blown .... that doesn't happen much. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/517402561024753664)
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tantek good to still be blowing minds I suppose.
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gRegor` Hopefully in a "let me check this indieweb out more" way
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@4c4d http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern good to read on why your personal projects should avoid databases (twitter.com/_/status/517404839270043648)
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@4c4d http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern good to read on why your personal projects (with caveats) might want to avoid databases (twitter.com/_/status/517404982237089792)
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tantek gRegor`: a lot of indieweb is challenging a lot of assumptions. so this is good.
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sparverius tbqh i disagree with some of those points, but i can think of a few things ive done where i probably shouldnt have used a database
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tantek I for one don't mind people thinking differently, as long as they are thinking for themselves.
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tantek independent dissent is to be encouraged.
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aaronpk_ especially dissent with citations :D
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gRegor` sparverius: Yeah, there's a fair range of opinions on databases in the community. I'm fairly pro, but definitely see some good points on /database-antipattern
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gRegor` I balked at the page early on, but that was before I fully understood this isn't intended as a /monoculture
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tantek the page has certainly been improved by all the questioning and criticism
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jonnybarnes right, so I now have a *very* basic contacts page at https://jonnybarnes.uk/contacts
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jonnybarnes lets see if I can use it to implement a nickname's cache (indiewebcamp.com/nicknames-cache)
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aaronpk_ oh nice!
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jonnybarnes how the hell did tantek get the twitter name "t"?
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aaronpk_ was one of the first people to join twitter?
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tantek early adopter and breaking with convention (of not using single letters for usernames)
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tantek other early adopters tried it, didn't like it, switched to "traditional" user names
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tantek it wasn't til at least (maybe?) a year later that people thought it was "cool" to have a shorter name. for me it was pure utility - initially you could tweet longer if your username was shorter. tweet length used to be 156 - length-of-username.
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gRegor` Does anyone manually cross-post comments into disqus or other comment silos?
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gRegor` I'm about to for the first time.
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aaronpk_ I have once or twice I think
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tantek gRegor`: I did once to gigaom
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: I did once to a wordpress type thingie
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tantek manually POSSE'd even
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aaronpk_ hey come back
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tantek and ended up filing a bunch of Bridgy feature requests :)
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gRegor` Hehe
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/no-need-start-scratch-mediajunkie
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tantek gRegor`: mine, including POSSE threading on Twitter too! http://tantek.com/2014/255/t2/well-deserved-talented-known-minor-correction
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KartikPrabhu also manually backfed reply to comment :P
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jonnybarnes theres nothing on the micropub page about updating contacts
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: manually backfeeding, that's hardcore :)
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tantek jonnybarnes: is there anything about updating at all on the micropub page?
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KartikPrabhu thanks :P
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jonnybarnes what would that be? h=contact?
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gRegor` From the guy who said he doesn't check if his comment has made it past moderation. ;)
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KartikPrabhu ha! :P
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jonnybarnes tantek: yeah, load of stuff
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tantek jonnybarnes: you can create h-card pages :)
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tantek instead of h-entry
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jonnybarnes ah, ok
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tantek hmm - is micropub a replacement for WebDAV too?
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tantek and if not, what is it missing?
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tantek similarly, is using micropub with h-event a replacement for CalDAV?
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tantek and, is using micropub with h-card a replacement for CardDAV?
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gRegor` What is WebDAV?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WebDAV" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=WebDAV
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gRegor` What is CalDAV?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CalDAV" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CalDAV
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tantek does anyone here use WebDAV?
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tantek does anyone here use CalDAV?
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aaronpk_ does
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aaronpk_ webdav
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tantek tags aaronpk with http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=WebDAV and "IndieWeb Examples"
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gRegor` "Sorry, WebDAV, I can't let you do that."
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aaronpk_ heh /p3k already links to /WebDAV
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tantek aaronpk, the "*#* of links to" would be quite handy for the Loqi responses!
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Loqi grins profusely
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aaronpk_ yeah totally
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jonnybarnes i use caldav via owncloud
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aaronpk_ i've been thinking about supporting caldav so that I can create events on my site using the mac calendar app and my phone
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tantek tags jonnybarnes with http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CalDAV and creating an "IndieWeb Examples" section
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tantek what is owncloud?
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bret.io edited /IRC (+615) "/* Join the discussion: #indiewebcamp chat */ Added section about how to get voice" (view diff)
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/owncloud
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tantek well at least there's that
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bret gtg to lunch. feel free to edit that
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cweiske.de edited /ownCloud (+85) (view diff)
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jonnybarnes.uk edited /ownCloud (+74) "add myself as an example" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /WebDAV (+226) "stub with" (view diff)
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cweiske the owncloud desktop client uses webdav for file sync
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joskar.se edited /IRC_People (+49) (view diff)
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jonnybarnes.uk created /CalDAV (+231) "Basic intro" (view diff)
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fwr meanwhile, over on corporate-whoreweb http://socialmachines.media.mit.edu/2014/10/01/mittwitter-launch-announcement/
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aaronpk_ thinking about PESOS'ing my amazon purchase history
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jonnybarnes and making it public on your own site, or why?
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aaronpk_ probably not everything public
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aaronpk_ but would import them first as private posts, then may make some of them public
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aaronpk_ I now know how much I have spent at Amazon in the past 6 years
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@dougmckown Very excited for Heartbeat ("...a social network client that is private by default...") https://ind.ie/ #indieweb #heartbeat (twitter.com/_/status/517425586193461248)
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KartikPrabhu anyone know how this "Hearbeat" works?
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aaronpk_ as far as I can tell the only info about it right now is thew few words on ind.ie
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KartikPrabhu see: https://ind.ie/##network+with+a+heart
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danlyke I think it works through pure wishful thinking and spare web design.
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KartikPrabhu in particular, where will my public posts appear? URL, domain?
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KartikPrabhu would be good to know before "signing up"
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kylewm most of Aral’s conversations about it on Twitter are debating GPL
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aaronpk_ oh, didn't even think to check there
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kylewm only technical information I could find was it’s Go + Javascript
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kylewm oh and people accusing him that his anti-Ello article seems pretty calculated timing-wise
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KartikPrabhu ha why is that an accusation :P
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KartikPrabhu smart timing
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kylewm disingenuous I guess?
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rascul http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/01/facebook-apologizes-to-lgbt-community-and-promises-changes-to-real-name-policy/
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KartikPrabhu not really. he has criticised ello for exactly what he thinks is wrong with them, and he is providing an alternative to correct those wrongs
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cuibonobo private synchronization over P2P sounds like bittorrent.
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KartikPrabhu i'm more interested in how the experience is rather than technical details. like if I post privately where is the post stored. If I post publically is it viewable on a URL. If so whose URL? Or is all of this stuck inside Heartbeat, in which case so much for freedom
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aaronpk_ KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 67 karma
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kylewm it’s pointless to even speculate, it’s just buzzword soup at this point
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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aaronpk_ https://twitter.com/aral/status/517376028181012480
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@aral So, to summarise, the Indienet is:✓ Independently-funded (no VC)✓ Distributed✓ Free as in freedom✓ Beautifulhttps://ind.ie (twitter.com/_/status/517376028181012480)
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@dougmckown @indie I'm a former software tester and #indieweb supporter and would love to help out out as a tester for Heartbeat. (twitter.com/_/status/517428950923247617)
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KartikPrabhu ha yeah so far lot of hype... will wait it out before criticising
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bret hes got a point, lets try to focus more on http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly than to just call it a slio
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bret if im reading between the lines, its aiming to be more like bittorrent sync/bleep than a federated web/server app
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bret which if it can be pulled off, sweet!
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bret http://labs.bittorrent.com/bleep/
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KartikPrabhu bret: maybe. but then how is a public post going to look?
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aaronpk_ hadn't heard about that yet!
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bret KartikPrabhu: who knows?
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KartikPrabhu bret: yup exactly. if they are claiming free as in freedom, this is the first thing I'd want to know
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bret aaronpk_: bittorrent has done a number of weird DHT chat/comment experiements
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aaronpk_ neat
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bret most of them sucked
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bret imo
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KartikPrabhu anyway i'll still wait for more to come out
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aaronpk_ yeah
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bret im totally behind his vision, the problem is that its never been done, and its going to be a) super duper hard to and cost a ton of money and work to get anything remotely close to what is being called for in a short ammount of time and b) no proof of prior related work so I am afraid its all talk
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kylewm is spread.ly on http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly#Organisations_who_are_Indieweb_Friendly dead or just down?
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bret who knows though, it only takes a c/win32 guru to throw together some cutstom libraries to make a uTorrent
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah not connecting for me either
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aaronpk_ http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/spread-ly
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kylewm.com edited /friendly (+127) "/* Organisations who are Indieweb Friendly */ note that it appears to be down/dead" (view diff)
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kylewm that’s what happens when you befriend the indieweb, kids
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KartikPrabhu lol
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cuibonobo re heartbeat: i dunno. the maidsafe guys have been working on data decentralization for years and years to ensure that even if your computer is off, your public stuff will remain public somehow. color me skeptical
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aaronpk_ purely p2p just isn't a priority for me. I'm totally ok with a "server" running somewhere
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: ae there any examples of a working system like that?
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: they're in the middle of wrapping up their first test network. test net 2 is scheduled for this week, and i think 'the real thing' will probably deploy at the end of the year
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GWG I've been thinking about something again
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aaronpk_ uhoh
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: hmm interesting. will keep an eye out
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aaronpk_ GWG: sounds dangerous
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GWG aaronpk_: While we haven't met in person, I think you have come to know me well enough to think that.
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aaronpk_ it usually ends well
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bret aaronpk_: is pin13 up to spec?
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aaronpk_ spec?
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bret like up to date
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aaronpk_ with the mf2 parser?
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bret yeah
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aaronpk_ 0.2.9
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bret is there a field that I can post in just html?
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bret rather than point at a url
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GWG I know this keeps coming up, but if I don't hang around on silos, how do I know what to reply to on my own site if I want to engage with less independent people? Except I don't want to hang around on silos really
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kylewm aaronpk_: bret: related https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/19
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aaronpk_ no but I should probably add that
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KartikPrabhu bret: https://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/?
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aaronpk_ i've got some indieweb gardening to do apparently
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KartikPrabhu bret: also https://kartikprabhu.com/connection/mfparser if you want to test with mf2py with HTML input
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bret yay!
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Loqi :D
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bret aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 569 karma
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bret KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 68 karma
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cuibonobo GWG: i feel you. i'm doing a combination of RSS and email notifications from silos.
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aaronpk_ GWG: not sure what you mean? do you mean how do you find content from non-indieweb sites without actually having an account on a bunch of silos?
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GWG aaronpk_: Without actually going there
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KartikPrabhu GWG: you need a reader
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GWG KartikPrabhu: A silo reader? I know about feed reading..
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KartikPrabhu hey if you can backfeed from silos you can read from them too :P
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KartikPrabhu no one has made one yet though
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kylewm since he’s not here, obligatory plug for https://facebook-activitystreams.appspot.com/
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KartikPrabhu Twitter has the API to do this
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KartikPrabhu kylewm:++ yeah that
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KartikPrabhu kylewm++ I mean
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Loqi kylewm has 60 karma
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jonnybarnes why is aaronpk not op?
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GWG Isn't there something int he Twitter T&C about displaying it differently than they do?
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jonnybarnes and why is their both aaronpk and aaronpk_
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aaronpk_ it's complicated
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GWG One for each of his personalities?
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jonnybarnes GWG: theres rules about displaying tweets, but they only apply if they were retrieved via the API
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reedstrm more complicated than the standard signed in fro,m more than one device?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I doubt they'll come after you for using your own styles in your personal reade
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jonnybarnes the rules definitely don't apply if you are locally hosting the tweet
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aaronpk_ jonnybarnes: citation?
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bret rules are for breaking
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aaronpk_ as long as you know them first
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GWG Why do I keep trying to think of solutions to problems I'm not prepared to solve?
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aaronpk_ that's why we have #itching
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cuibonobo that reminds me. i want to make a parser for the IRC logs, but i'm getting an SSL error
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aaronpk_ what really?
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aaronpk_ dammit
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cuibonobo "requests.exceptions.SSLError: hostname 'indiewebcamp.com' doesn't match either of 'mail.indieweb.org', 'indieweb.org'"
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GWG aaronpk_: Is that a freenode chat room?
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aaronpk_ oh that sounds like your HTTP client doesn't support SNI
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aaronpk_ GWG: no, the section on your user page
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aaronpk_ cuibonobo: i'm guessing you're using python?
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kylewm ya, that’s python fo sure
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: yes! thanks for pointing me in the right direction. seems like i need to install some stuff to get the requests module to work
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jonnybarnes aaronpk_ searching
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cuibonobo per: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18578439/using-requests-with-tls-doesnt-give-sni-support/18579484#18579484
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aaronpk_ weird. I don't know why python doesn't work for that by default
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aaronpk_ all the other languages/environments seem to support it now
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: i'm still on python 2.7. this is fixed in python 3.x seems like
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aaronpk_ ah hm ok
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aaronpk_ is super unfamiliar with python things
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kylewm I couldn’t get https://t37.net/ in python either (althoguh I think that is a separate issue)
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bret pyyyytttthoooonnnnn
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GWG Maybe I should just limit the scope
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GWG Maybe I should figure out how to keep track of all of you guys and move on from there
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jonnybarnes aaronpk_: here's adactio talking about it: https://adactio.com/journal/5698/
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aaronpk_ oh yeah hmm
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jonnybarnes he mentions one of the guys at twitter saying it only applies to API-retreived tweets
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: according to bear the new requests update fixed the SNI issues
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GWG aaronpk_: Why does indieauth not work with SSL/SNI though?
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aaronpk_ what do you mean?
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aaronpk_ it works just fine I thought
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: i just installed 2.4.1 but the problem persists.
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GWG aaronpk_: It doesn't since I switched
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aaronpk_ hmm, my site uses SNI and it works fine
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GWG It says there was an SSL error
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aaronpk_ might be a different error then
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GWG aaronpk_: Who can I contact to ask?
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aaronpk_ I can look at the raw logs if you try it again
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aaronpk_ oh yeah I see "SSL ERROR: hostname does not match the server certificate"
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aaronpk_ that's very odd
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kylewm is it the wildcard cert?
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bret aaronpk_: did you see http://indiewebcamp.com/irc#Voice ?
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aaronpk_ oh cool thanks!!
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aaronpk_ guess I have to do that now ;)
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bret whenever :)
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aaronpk_ GWG: I just restarted the site and now it works for you
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aaronpk_ kinda confused about that
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aaronpk_ but at least it's working
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GWG aaronpk_: Thank you.
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aaronpk_ I'm wondering if it was ruby caching some stuff internally
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aaronpk_ what did you say you changed recently?
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GWG aaronpk_: I went from no SSL to SSL a while back, then from SSL to all SSL
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aaronpk_ did you change the certificate at any point?
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GWG aaronpk_: Yes.
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GWG Do you cache them?
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aaronpk_ not intentionally
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aaronpk_ but I wonder if internally an http library is caching
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GWG aaronpk_: Either way, that means I can edit the wiki without getting my cell phone OTP generator out. Thank you
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aaronpk_ :)
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GWG Can someone present at IWC Cambridge without being there?
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aaronpk_ we might be able to do that
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GWG aaronpk_: I still would like to get some more detailed feedback on the Wordpress stuff I've been doing. I keep missing that guy who comes in and was asking about it, davidmear, I think it was.
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GWG I want to refine it and make it easier for a new person to add it to their site.
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GWG For someone who already has an established Wordpress system
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aaronpk_ nice that'd be cool
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GWG I should do what petermolnar and others did. How I set up my installation
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Loqi I agree
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kylewm GWG: a blog post is in order
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techlifeweb GWG: ping me if you write a post about that
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GWG techlifeweb: What aspect interests you the most?
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techlifeweb GWG: I guess general set up. Pain points you had and how you solved or worked around them them.
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techlifeweb GWG: sounds like you are a developer so anything where something existed that wasn't working so you decided you could do it better. Or you saw a need and filled it.
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GWG techlifeweb: I'm not a developer. I'm an amateur
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sparverius GWG: do you code?
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tantek I don't understand - what happened to Spreadly? That crunchbase link doesn't say anything about shutdown.
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tantek !tell pfefferle what happened to spreadly.com? http://dev.spreadly.com/ still works.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG sparverius: I do...but not professionally...or well.
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GWG I'm not sure what the definition techlifeweb is using
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tantek kylewm what happeend to Spreadly?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that is what we are confused about. spreadly.com does not work
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KartikPrabhu but dev. does
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tantek.com edited /friendly (-185) "/* Organisations who are Indieweb Friendly */ previously spreadly" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ GWG I presented at IWC Brighton remotely
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KevinMarks__ not sure how well that worked, tantek can review
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tantek KevinMarks your presentation went well!
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tantek.com created /Spreadly (+1274) "stub with info from /friendly and a little bit of digging on Twitter" (view diff)
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techlifeweb GWG: Well, you've made plugins for WP, correct?
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GWG techlifeweb: Yes
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tantek.com edited /Spreadly (+11) "likely silo" (view diff)
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bret oh shnap, bitbucket is down
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bret https://bitbucket.org is giving 500s
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tantek what is bitbucket?
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Loqi Bitbucket is a source code silo and alternative to github as it offers free git (and mercurial) repository hosting for public and private projects for individuals http://indiewebcamp.com/Bitbucket