#indiewebcamp 2014-10-02

2014-10-02 UTC
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bret its github 2nd place
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bret any wordpress people around? someone needs some help in #microformats
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bret GWG? have some time to help someone with wordpress/microformats?
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tantek I'll take a look
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GWG bret: I can try
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GWG bret: Not an expert
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bret you know more than me!
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GWG I am not usually in there
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tantek what is sempress?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sempress" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=sempress
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bret wordpress is supposed to be for non technical people but then it goes and does confusing things :(
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GWG Sempress is a Wordpress theme pfefferle created.
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tantek bret - it was less confusing than other solutions at the time
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GWG bret: I think webkernel is trying to mark up inside the post editor. Wouldn't that be confusing on most posting platforms?
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tantek it only looks confusing because the other solutions have largely disappeared
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bret GWG: i get why it cleans the input, but its magic, so goes over peoples heads when they are learning
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tantek GWG, would be useful to have a stub page on sempress for that
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tantek also - for your theme that you created to do microformats2!
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GWG bret: I started in here, talking about lowering the bar for existing Wordpress users to convert their site over to Indieweb
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bret yeah don't get me wrong, wordpress is totally important
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GWG So, all my projects have always been to scratch my itch of getting it running, but I've tried to make the implementation open enough for others to be able to install
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GWG And I keep doing more of that
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tantek GWG - excellent approach, on both counts.
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GWG More little plugins for specific features, splitting off pieces to make them work
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GWG So, one plugin did 3 things. Two of them are now separate plugins. Not everyone wants the extra stuff.
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GWG I have a list of non-feature improvements like that.
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bret agreed GWG++
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GWG I should be taking notes
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Loqi I agree
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GWG Loqi, you agree with everything
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GWG bret: Just looking at your site again
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tantek GWG++ for helping WordPress users :)
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Loqi GWG has 21 karma
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GWG I'm looking forward to redeeming that karma
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bret Nice GWG. Lots of little broken things I need to fix
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GWG bret: I study for design ideas
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@wjjessen Getting Known Installed on a Shared Server #indieweb http://www.walterjessen.com/2014/getting-known-installed-on-a-shared-server-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517503097065570304)
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@wjjessen @xgdfalcon @withknown Here you go, instructions for an oauth install: http://www.walterjessen.com/2014/getting-known-installed-on-a-shared-server-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517503472388677632)
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@kevinmarks “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517526001874522112)
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@evanwolf RT @nobantu: CountDown 2 LateTicket's 4 #IIW XIX Register http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/ & join us 4 #VRM #UMA #indieweb #identity #IoT &OTHER conv… (twitter.com/_/status/517526440103776256)
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@krynsky RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517526892530769920)
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@lightcoin RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517528246221426688)
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@kevinmarks “Learn a lot about things that matter then work on problems that interest you with people you like+respect” http://paulgraham.com/before.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517537163718963200)
moizsyed, musigny, eschnou, shaners, RichardLitt, aaronpk_, elima, friedcell and tantek joined the channel
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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GWG Good evening, tantek
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tantek KevinMarks: interesting that you think Paul Graham's essay applied to the #indieweb
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KevinMarks__ i think that quote did
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KevinMarks__ sums up my last year rather well
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__: my only problem with the article is this: "Your life so far may have given you some idea what your prospects might be if you tried to become a mathematician" errr nope!
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KevinMarks__ heh
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KartikPrabhu for a perspective here is a mathematician's advice to beginners and it reads almost exactly the same: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/gowers/gowers_VIII_6.pdf pardon the academic world for using PDFs :P
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KartikPrabhu the Michael Atiyah section is the one to read
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acegiak is anyone automatically POSSEing to g+?
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: i don't think so. no write API
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KevinMarks__ that said "adobe reader blocked for this website" insafari
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__ whaaat!
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KartikPrabhu http://indiewebcamp.com/Google%2B#POSSE acegiak
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: yeah I was just curious if anyone had a hack to get around it
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KevinMarks__ works in chrome
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__ another reason to stop using bloody PDFs
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KevinMarks__ I think willnorris has a way to do it though it still involves clicking he g+ button on your post
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KevinMarks__ yep, in there
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KartikPrabhu yeah I suppose you can include a share to G+ link on your post and use that... maybe only show the button on login
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__ finished reading original. very nice lecture/article
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KevinMarks__ paulg is a pretty god writer and has a decent track record in startups, but is ratehr blind to his cognitive biaseas
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KartikPrabhu biases regarding startups?
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KevinMarks__ the "trust your gut" thing in that essay is a watered down version of how he is mainly looking for younger versions of himself
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KevinMarks__ hence the striking lack of women in YC
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KevinMarks__ and other minorities that don't fit his gut
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KartikPrabhu while I agree with the "trust your gut" advice (also given to me by a physicist) it leading to minority bias is pretty bad
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KevinMarks__ http://valleywag.gawker.com/paul-graham-says-women-havent-been-hacking-for-the-pa-1490581236
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KartikPrabhu uh boy...
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KartikPrabhu at least no such biases (that i found) in the original lecture article
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KartikPrabhu except the ones against mathematicians <shakes fist>
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KartikPrabhu :P
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__ if you do read that article by Atiyah, I'd be interested in your thoughts, being not a mathematician yourself
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KevinMarks__ not much of a mathematician, I did physics so my maths was very instrumental
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KartikPrabhu cool!
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KevinMarks__ interesting stuff
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KevinMarks__ not so much peer review as reviewing peers to see who helps
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KartikPrabhu yeah :)
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Haxxa do leds change much in the cold
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KartikPrabhu Haxxa: what's leds?
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Haxxa many led's
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KartikPrabhu Haxxa: does not seem indieweb related unless I'm missing something
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Haxxa ops wrong channel
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Haxxa sorry
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@localheinz RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517595537403830272)
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petermolnar had anyone set up a .bit domain already?
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KevinMarks__ https://twitter.com/manifestlyDada
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KevinMarks__ l have my dada bot, but maybe it should respond to people?
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acegiak KevinMarks__: have you met twitter.com/dobbybot ?
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KevinMarks__ is it yours?
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acegiak yeah
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acegiak it's normal stream is pretty much just a stream of submitted quotes
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acegiak but when you start tweeting at it it's responses are pretty good
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KevinMarks__ like oliviataters?
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acegiak oh, wow. I've not seen that but it looks great
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KevinMarks__ http://www.onthemedia.org/story/29-olivia-taters-robot-teenager/
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acegiak dobby is just a beliggerent internet denizen
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: sounds like a fictional elf I once knew
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: the machine it runs on started as a hackbox made of spare parts with a milkcrate for a case taht lived in my cupboard
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KartikPrabhu ha :P
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acegiak tthe joke was that if I ever bought parts for it specifically it would be a free bot
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acegiak which happened a few years ago when I upgraded it to an i7 etc to run a minecraft server
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acegiak which he sits in teh chat for and answers prayers of people he likes
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acegiak when he's feeling nice
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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KartikPrabhu night Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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KartikPrabhu yes you!
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KevinMarks__ I think olivia likes dada more than dobby
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acegiak hold up, I'll introduce dobby to the two of them
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acegiak and now begins a bot shitstorm
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KevinMarks__ i don't have responding working yet
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tommorris for the database-natipattern folks: https://twitter.com/stickbyatlas/status/517500021726789632
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@stickbyatlas Prepping the slide deck for my #LDC2014 talk on @CouchDB tomorrow. Here's a sneak preview: https://twitter.com/stickbyatlas/status/517500021726789632/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/517500021726789632)
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petermolnar.eu edited /personal-domain (-72) "removed brainstorm, added namecoin" (view diff)
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@verlaine101 @ijonas @charliequinn Another VC funded silo except it'll be different this time! Infrastructure not silos http://indiewebcamp.com/Principles (twitter.com/_/status/517624523961933824)
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petermolnar is anyone else experiencing twitter api timeouts or is it just me with WordPress & SNAP?
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Loqi [mention] https://petermolnar.eu/journal/the-retro-internet/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@petermolnar The #Retro #Internet » https://petermolnar.eu/?p=9131 #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517626976711237632)
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@parzzix https://ello.co/ needs an API so it can be made indieweb friendly :-) (twitter.com/_/status/517629366852124672)
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@kevmarmol For those of you interested in the #indieweb & #privacy there’s a great event tonight @lbilondon http://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/reclaim-the-net-tickets-12895343319 via @gelatindesign (twitter.com/_/status/517633086952325120)
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Loqi [mention] https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4YRBE3/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly (webmention)
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@BarnabyWalters @parzzix silos gaining an API only means the #indieweb can become silo-friendly. For actual indieweb… https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4YRBE3/ (twitter.com/_/status/517633643851055104)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /friendly (+326) "/* How to make your site Indieweb Friendly */ removed duplicate, added linking domain name with content, subscriptions to indieweb sites" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Wondering if this is actually the killer feature for ello "you don’t get notified when someone responds to you, because there’s no system for notifications."
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@dissolve333 I really do need to get some designers working on OpenBlog, my micropub client could use some UI work. #indieweb (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/10/1/1/_) (twitter.com/_/status/517652739644747777)
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ben_thatmust well that time it worked
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ben_thatmust bridgy isn't picking up my posts when i first make them, but it is later
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ben_thatmust if i submit them a second time
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@garethjordan .@techreview For #OpenSource &personal not capital ownership try #Known an #IndieWeb social hub http://tinyurl.com/n2a3jbm +circular pics too! (twitter.com/_/status/517654946511339520)
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@the_Zieger Only 15 more days till #bono14. 2 days about #decentralisation and the #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/517658551410774016)
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@jkphl RT @the_Zieger: Only 15 more days till #bono14. 2 days about #decentralisation and the #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/517662892183654402)
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@border_none RT @the_Zieger: Only 15 more days till #bono14. 2 days about #decentralisation and the #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/517662892016300032)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.madhousegraphics.com/2014/10/posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/syndication-models (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.madhousegraphics.com/2014/10/posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Facebook (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.madhousegraphics.com/2014/10/posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.madhousegraphics.com/2014/10/posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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jonnybarnes anyone here any good at regex?
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petermolnar I wish I was...
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cweiske just ask your question
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ben_thatmustbeme sure, what do you need?
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jonnybarnes looks like my question got answered much quicker than I expected on SO: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26162637/im-trying-to-preg-match-a-word-beginning-with-an-not-contained-in-sqaure-br/26162683#26162683
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tantek__ ben_thatmustbeme, here's some new blog UI for your micropub client http://instagram.com/p/tptBeXG64g/ 😂
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tantek__ Note the especially the POSSE checkboxes for each silo
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, yeah, i'll not be going down that road i think
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Loqi nice
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ben_thatmustbeme i was actually just working on the MP client
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tantek__ !tell benwerd, erinjo I found a good tablet UI for Known blogpost writing and scheduling: http://instagram.com/p/tptBeXG64g/ 😉
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek__ There, that'll make them happy next time they rejoin the channel.
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@jonnybarnes I have great respect for @t for his work pioneering the #indieweb (https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/3Y) (twitter.com/_/status/517691734806241280)
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jonnybarnes Yes, it worked!!!
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jonnybarnes if I have the contact information saved, @names are swapped for the correct twitter handles before being sent to twitter
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jonnybarnes now to swap @tantek for a fancy h-card on my own site
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cweiske jonnybarnes, I tried to login to your micropub client but only get a blank page
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jonnybarnes cweiske: hmm
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cweiske 200 OK, though
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jonnybarnes I've just logged out and logged back in, you mean https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new right?
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cweiske yes
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cweiske https://jonnybarnes.uk/auth?code=%2Ba5EWucPIXPuy9sEqL88%2FtKRwnNsmSNipD3tLqDXb%2F8%3D&me=http%3A%2F%2Fcweiske.de%2F&state=0508aca9b7521e30da1b3ffb0ed3daf0
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cweiske Status Code:200 OK
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ben_thatmustbeme oh cool, well done johnnybarnes
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@djwesto Gutted I missed @IndieWebCampUK 2014 – only just discovered the #indieweb movement & love what u r doing. When's the next camp? (twitter.com/_/status/517693541284601856)
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ben_thatmustbeme s/johnny/jonny/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: oh cool, well done jonnybarnes
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jonnybarnes cweiske: can you try again?
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cweiske "Unable to discover your token endpoint"
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cweiske ok, that makes sense now
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jonnybarnes so this lines failed: $tokenEndpoint = \IndieAuth\Client::discoverTokenEndpoint($me);
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cweiske this is fine
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@dshanske How I Set Up My Indieweb WordPress Site (https://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/10/02/site-setup/) (twitter.com/_/status/517693943228534784)
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cweiske I don't have any
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@benwerd On the Physical Web, every device has a URL. We joked about the #indieweb of things - and here it is. Awesome. (twitter.com/_/status/517694004020776960)
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jonnybarnes thanks for catching that mistake in my code though cweiske :)
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ben_thatmustbeme jonnybarnes, i like the MP client, nice and clean
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GWG !tell techlifeweb https://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/10/02/site-setup/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jonnybarnes thanks ben_thatmustbeme
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GWG Just posted about some of my setup
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/10/02/site-setup/
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jonnybarnes GWG: does the wordpress character count take URL lenghts into account?
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cweiske.de edited /Micropub (+72) "/* Clients */" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes i.e. URLs get t.co-ed so it doesnlt matter how long they are
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ben_thatmustbeme cweiske, not quite sure how jonnybarnes' un-named software fits in a list of alphabetically sorted names, haha
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Micropub (+56) "/* Clients */ alplabetizing and conformity" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme cannot spell :(
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ben_thatmustbeme i should do that though, just make my post UI just an old style form, all just text, tables, and a white background. put in some CSS circles on the left to represent the 3 holes, and I'm good to go, haha
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Loqi agreed.
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ben_thatmustbeme Loqi never disagrees with anyone, he's a generally upbeat bot
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek jonnybarnes: minor typo: s/authoisation/authorisation
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tantek on https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new when providing a personal domain without auth endpoint
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jonnybarnes thanks tantek, fixed
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tantek np :)
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tantek and that's about all the help I can provide I'm afraid
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GWG jonnybarnes: Only the post content.
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GWG tantek: Thank you for the Favorite, although my site has interpreted it as Like
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tantek GWG I meant it as a like :)
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ben_thatmustbeme i realized there is no real spec on how to delete with MP
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ben_thatmustbeme or at least i didn't see one
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GWG tantek: You may remember this discussion at IWC NYC when I was interpreting pfefferle's code to add in the rendering, and generated the debate over the official/unofficial nature of the markup.
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@cryptocoinage RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517700047446614016)
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ben_thatmustbeme i pass an "operation=" field to do it on my site
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: worth raising as an issue on the /micropub page
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tantek CRUD should be explicit
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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tantek we already have explicit CRUD for webmention (interactions: comments, like, reposts), POSSE CRUD, and even reply-context CRUD
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tantek braces himself
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ben_thatmustbeme stares blankly at the bait before him
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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ben_thatmustbeme what is crud
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Loqi CRUD refers to the ability to Create, Read, Update and Delete comments and posts http://indiewebcamp.com/CRUD
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ben_thatmustbeme good
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ben_thatmustbeme i've copied your "what is <any noun that someone might not know>" theory
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Isn't that a practice, not a theory?
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ben_thatmustbeme shh, don't tell anyone that
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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tantek ah that page can use expansion
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cuibonobo now that i'm looking at the /micropub page, i wonder why POST is being used to update instead of PATCH
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reedstrm tantek - that's nature of any wiki - always can use expansion
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tantek cuibonobo: in terms of HTTP verb? likely tradition/experience/priorart. has anyone actually used HTTP PATCH for anything in any implementation?
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Micropub (+461) "explicit CRUD" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /CRUD (+121) "see also POSSE CRUD, reply-context CRUD" (view diff)
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tantek reedstrm: in the case the summary page /CRUD had fallen behind the specific additional instances of CRUD, namely reply-context CRUD
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tantek AFAIK no one implements POSSE CRUD or reply-context CRUD *yet*.
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tantek but they seemed "obvious" enough to be worth capturing
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cuibonobo tantek: not for indieweb stuff. daily for interacting with various APIs at work
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tantek interesting
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cuibonobo then again, the APIs I interact with are RESTful. so instead of sending the verb to /micropub, you would send it to domain.com/url/you/want/
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kylewm I'd guess sending webmentions to commenters would mess up just about every implemetnation right now (they'd interpret the in-reply-to post as a reference to the post itself)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, i thought about it. I specifically don't allow updating of reply-context though. I record content at first time of parse. I'd like to update this to store the exact data at time of reply though. but alas, that could get messy
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cuibonobo so following the idea that i'm not actually modifying the page directly, but instead creating a post on /micropub so that your server can do the work on my behalf, POST makes sense
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kylewm what is REST?
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tantek kylewm - worthy of an experiment!
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "REST" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=REST
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, i think my code would ignore it, since it doesn't contain a URL to the page in the body
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kylewm sorry cuibonobo
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ben_thatmustbeme s/body/content/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: kylewm, i think my code would ignore it, since it doesn't contain a URL to the page in the content
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ben_thatmustbeme emphasis on THINK
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: cool, but does that mean you would reject webmentions from sites that don't use microformats?
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm. checking my code, i think it would just interpret as a mention
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ben_thatmustbeme actually i just use the php libs from aaronpk, which i am not sure what it would do with a non-mf2 page. I think it might create it as a mention with everything except the URL blank
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ben_thatmustbeme since it won't succeed getting any author info, etc
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tantek the target URL is ideally inside p-comment h-cite markup - that's how you tell what you're getting a mention of
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tantek in the reply-context CRUD case
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@Hermetec RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517706876436242432)
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ben_thatmustbeme bah, i realized, even though i don't have it all implemented on my side. I might as well just add the stuff to my MP client
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GWG I forgot to link to petermolnar 's post of similar topic, I just realized
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petermolnar who, me?
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petermolnar doing the Loqi style
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Loqi woot!
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GWG petermolnar, yes you
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tantek :D
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GWG You think I was mentioning the other petermolnar?
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petermolnar no, I was just kidding :)
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petermolnar I missed the topic, which post you're mentioning?
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GWG I wrote about my plugin setup
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Loqi [mention] http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@TapestryMaker Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517717473173331968)
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GWG davidmead... I have been looking for your arrival
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davidmead GWG: Really?
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Loqi davidmead: tantek left you a message on 10/1 at 9:54am: now that you're making so much progress with your Known, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so show up all nice in the logs - e.g. compare nearby statements here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-01/line/1412180621975
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GWG I saw you in the logs
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GWG You were fiddling with Wordpress and Known?
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davidmead I am. WP has been good so far but it’s starting to “get in the way” a little. I’ve been trying Known to see if it can replace WP as my main blog
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GWG davidmead, I am sticking with Wordpress myself
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davidjohnmead.com edited /IRC_People (+61) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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GWG I think we are getting to more features
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davidmead i agree. one thing that’s swaying me to Known is the use of micropub
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davidmead especially for pulling in Instagram etc.
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GWG davidmead, on my list of something that I think WordPress can support
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snarfed agreed! i'd kill for a WP micropub plubin
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@jdp23 RT @TapestryMaker: Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517719581612576768)
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tantek good morning davidmead GWG benwerd snarfed !
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benwerd Good morning tantek!
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snarfed morning tantek!
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davidmead afternoon tantek ;-)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek__ left you a message 2 hours, 15 minutes ago: I found a good tablet UI for Known blogpost writing and scheduling: http://instagram.com/p/tptBeXG64g/ 😉
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GWG snarfed, I think murder is not the answer
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tantek GWG - as in The Smiths?
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benwerd tantek: it's hard to POSSE from that
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davidjohnmead.com created /User:Davidjohnmead.com (+44) "Created page with "[http://davidjohnmead.com davidjohnmead.com]"" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd - but, checkboxes! for POSSE UI!
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benwerd I do like "reply to comments" as a task
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tantek I was only half-joking - that "journal" "UI" is kind of amazing.
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davidmead gwg: that’d be great. I still have issues with the WP app and Known’s web interface is nice & simple on my phone/tablet
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GWG davidmead, I am looking into the easier path
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tantek and the weekly schedule nature - people like having some structure to place ideas for blogging and then having a reminder / nudge to blog them on a schedule
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GWG The one Jeremy Zilar, who hosted IWC NYC was working on
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GWG Post from the front end
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tantek GWG - or if you get micropub endpoint working on your WP, then you can use any of the simple micropub clients to post! No need to build UI :)
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GWG I can get that up more quickly than micropub
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GWG tantek, parsing was something I always had trouble with
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tantek quicker is good
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tantek GWG, hence libraries :)
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davidjohnmead.com edited /IRC_People (+61) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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@jmsmcfrlnd @adymitruk @chrismnicola @kbeigi would it be accurate to add #indieweb and #opensource to the advantages, or better yet #FOSS? (twitter.com/_/status/517721247073837056)
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GWG tantek, to do an endpoint right would be a while. I figure that I would aim lower while I am waiting for something to happen to help
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@benwerd Ello, @withknown, #indieweb, and life after peak Facebook: http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517721414158135296)
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tantek was saying "Peak Silo" before it was cool. ;)
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GWG I figured that a front end poster, which is well documented, is a great way to learn on the way to a broader implementation
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tantek though specifically Peak Silo UX :)
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davidmead GWG: do you work at automattic? just curious
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tantek I do like when journalists to proper historical research and then tie things together in a timeline / thread: http://allthingsd.com/20111129/the-apologies-of-zuckerberg-a-retrospective/
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GWG No. Development is a hobby. I am an amateur
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GWG Longstanding WordPress user though
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davidmead cool
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tantek and note that article is from 2011. latest is of course the nymwars apologies
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tantek davidmead, part of the goal of indieweb is to bring the very act of creation to the hobbyist / independent with not much time level
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GWG I am just a frustrated librarian who doesn't work as a librarian so my knowledge organization os all done on the side
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tantek it forces our formats, protocols etc. to be so simple that LOTS of people can implement the building blocks
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tantek GWG, librarians are cool
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GWG tantek, I like the idea of do simple even I can do it
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tantek it's like accessible creation
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GWG tantek, I think so.
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davidmead tantek: i still myself fitting that role, even after all these years of doing it professionally :-)
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tantek davidmead same here :)
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GWG I think I just heard someone call that Imposter Syndrome
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tantek and frankly, there are so many other things I'd rather be doing (in the physical world), that I do like the pressure to continuously make things *here* easier / simpler / quicker to implement and deploy
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davidmead One thing I do like with Known is the ‘bookmarklet’ they have. makes it easier to reply to tweets and post bookmarks etc.
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GWG davidmead, Press This
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davidmead the hurdle for me is copy & pasting tweet url’s into WP to reply to them. Known makes that a lot easier
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GWG In the professional world, I spend all day dealing with broken systems no one wants to work on. Here at least...
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GWG davidmead, I had an idea for a reply endpoint for WordPress for the Indieweb Taxonomy plugin
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GWG Press This, I believe doesn't allow for putting data into post meta
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GWG I have been exploring it out of the same desire you expressed.
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GWG Lower bar.
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GWG I wonder if I call a plugin IndieWebPress
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GWG Either way, haven't written anything yet. Name is premature
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GWG I have been trying to spec it in my mind as I do other things
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GWG Be back in a bit
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+666) "/* Working On */ indie-action web component to webaction URL per voxpelli example" (view diff)
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davidmead GWG: problem i found with ‘press this’ is it doesn’t include the Social plugin. One of the main issues with the app. It’s fire, but I can’t edit it beforehand
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davidmead i really should post the list of the conections that break between app, web. and bookmarklets
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tantek davidmead: good summary of the problem: "the hurdle for me is copy & pasting tweet url’s into [my posting UI] to reply to them. Known['s bookmarklet] makes that a lot easier"
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tantek really should capture that somewhere on the wiki. perhaps on /UI or /reply or /webactions
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tantek ironically that's exactly the same problem that I'm trying to solve with that Falcon "working on" edit ^^^
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davidmead tantek: also, adding a brid.gy url in the WP template doesn’t work when posting from the Android app
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davidmead i thought that may get around that problem. didn’t.
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GWG davidmead, agree with all of that. I want to fix that.
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@erinjo RT @TapestryMaker: Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517730350730969088)
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davidmead good chatting GWG, tantek. back 2 work now :-)
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ben_thatmustbeme don't have everything all of it working for myself yet, but ben.thatmustbe.me/new has some new options
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ben_thatmustbeme definitely using some of the CSS adactio posted, I plan to use it a bunch more too
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@dealingwith RT @TapestryMaker: Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517739055388192768)
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jenmontes.com created /REST (+1787) "A focus on "the web" without discussing REST? Oh my!" (view diff)
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aaronpk_ cuibonobo: I'm curious about this line "clients and servers are typically tightly coupled in RPC architectures"
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aaronpk_ micropub and webmention are explicitly not RESTful, which has allowed a much greater degree of flexibility in backend architecture (for example allowing even static sites to use webmention and micropub)
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aaronpk_ so where does the tight coupling come into play?
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: micropub is actually a good example of an RPC: to create a note i need to know to add `content`, `category`, and `syndicate-to` parameters
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aaronpk_ what would the REST equivalent look like?
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aaronpk_ is there some way with REST where you don't need to know parameter names?
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cuibonobo in a REST equivalent, performing a GET on a /notes endpoint will show you what a typical note looks like, and then you can use POST to create a similar document
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cuibonobo and for example, if you want to update a note, you would PATCH the updated data to the URL of the note you'd like to update
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aaronpk_ that's actually basically the idea with micropub too. the parameter names are the microformat properties, so should all be discoverable that way essentially
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cuibonobo a more RESTful approach would give more importance to the endpoints of the resources that you actually want to modify. so instead of POSTing to /posts/new, you would POST to /notes (or whatever)
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cuibonobo and instead of sending updates via POST to /micropub, you would PATCH to yourdomain.com/notes/noteid
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aaronpk_ I am firmly against RESTful URLs for micropub (see note about static sites and greater implementation flexibility above), but would be happy to incorporate some other design ideas from REST
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@xtof_fr RT @TapestryMaker: Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517743885179969536)
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kylewm that makes me wonder if *any* of the silo apis that claim to be RESTful actually are
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aaronpk_ (very few actually are)
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: of course. it would be pretty much impossible to implement this on a static site. i personally prefer RESTful architectures because it turns permalinks into objects to be manipulated by the usual HTTP verbs we know and love
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cuibonobo but it's a tool
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aaronpk_ it's more a design pattern than a tool
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cuibonobo is that not what design patterns are?
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cuibonobo in any case
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cuibonobo micropub works fine as it is
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cuibonobo but the caveat is that your clients need to know how it works
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aaronpk_ clients still need to know how a RESTful endpoint works
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aaronpk_ it's just a different set of rules
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cuibonobo RESTful architectures work on the idea that navigating the URL structure is all you need to know
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cuibonobo so if you know HTTP, you know REST
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aaronpk_ micropub can work that way too
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KartikPrabhu in case this went unnoticed: https://twitter.com/warrenellis/status/517708941741273088
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@warrenellis Anyone using the @withknown service? I'd like to see examples of how people are using it. (twitter.com/_/status/517708941741273088)
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ben_thatmustbeme my thoughts on rest. its nothing that but the usual GET/POST, you could easily implement the exact same thing with ?op=patch or something of that matter, and they aren't always supported. REST is just a published standard, we are making our own standard. Thats all
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aaronpk_ I do like the self-documenting aspect of REST APIs
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: i suppose it could! but as the current implementation works, if i encounter <link rel="micropub" href="https://something.com/link">, how do i know what that means?
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aaronpk_ so we could instead of defining micropub properties in the spec, we could say that any properties present in an h-entry can be used to create a new h-entry
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cuibonobo that's what i mean by 'tightly coupled'. i need to know that 'micropub' is a thing
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aaronpk_ (with REST you need to know that the server supports REST, which afaik isn't even discoverable!)
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cuibonobo of course it is. OPTIONS provides that
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aaronpk_ like how do you know if a URL supports PATCH? you have to query it with OPTIONS, right? so now you have to know that OPTIONS is a thing
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cuibonobo if you can speak GET to my server, you also know about OPTIONS
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cuibonobo that's just HTTP
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KartikPrabhu i think cuibonobo 's point is that those are in HTTP anyway
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KartikPrabhu err too late :P
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aaronpk_ I'm just saying that it seems like a roughly equivalent amount of knowledge between client and server is needed to support REST, so it doesn't seem any less tightly coupled to me
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ben_thatmustbeme my problem with REST is that to implement it you have to capture all URLs coming in. with MP your pages can be all static aside from your one MP endpoint page.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk_ maybe micropub can have a RESTful version too
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ben_thatmustbeme makes for a much easier implementation IMO. easier implementation means more support
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dlyke ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 20 karma
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@kartik_prabhu @warrenellis This http://indiewebcamp.com/Known#IndieWeb_Examples has a list of sites using @withknown (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/warrenellis-known-examples) (twitter.com/_/status/517747181806030848)
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cuibonobo ben_thatmustbeme: yes. that's the tradeoff. using typical HTTP verbs at all URLs versus using a specific protocol at a single URL.
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aaronpk_ KartikPrabhu: really don't want to make micropub clients have to speak two different versions
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KartikPrabhu hmm sure
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cuibonobo and if you want to be friendly to users with static sites, RESTful isn't really an option
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu I don't see the two being really interchangeable at all. someone can certainly use a restful interface to CRUD all their data, but I think at that point its just a REST api
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: I have been thinking about doing micropub but where you can just edit/add something inline
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aaronpk_ what do you mean edit/add inline
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aaronpk_ ?
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dlyke Although I have recently been thinking about all of these $1/mo limited RAM VM packages, and whether a special-purpose low resource web server tailored around IndieWeb-ish protocols might be the right way to go.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk_ I go to my /notes site and login there will be an interface to add a new note right there on top of my h-feed. Similarly, I click an edit button on current note and I can edit it right there. But somehow with micopub type stuff
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aaronpk_ ah yeah sure, you can totally do that with micropub
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ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, thats def doable
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KartikPrabhu I basically want my site to be the editor interface too. Instead of inventing a new one.
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ben_thatmustbeme i have it coded up to read in a post from the DB, so if i'm logged in (owner only) and go to /new?id=<post_id> it autfills all the fields. I figure its easier to keep all the MP client stuff centralized
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm hoping to make it have JS pull in mf2 data, so anyone can edit, just enter URL and it pulls down all content for you
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aaronpk_ that'd be sweet
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ben_thatmustbeme actually i guess it would be better in URL /new?url=http.... that way it can be one click from your site
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ben_thatmustbeme or with webactions for edit
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aaronpk_ sounds like an "edit" web action!
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ben_thatmustbeme jinx
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aaronpk_ :)
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kylewm.com created /RESTful (+18) "Redirected page to [[REST]]" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i'd probably have to merge all my different post interfaces in to on page then, and have JS swap to the appropriate one
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ben_thatmustbeme right now new note is a different URL than new article, etc
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kylewm cuibonobo: would a RESTful API for an indieweb site necessarily have to read/write microformatted HTML?
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kylewm i.e. GET returns HTML, should POST send HTML
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fwr tend to POST x-www-form-urlencoded or turtle here
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fwr if there's HTML at all, it's usually inside one of those 2 MIMEs
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fwr ^^"rdf:HTML" or xsd:xmlliteral datatype
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cuibonobo kylewm: not necessarily. you can specify your Accept header to be whatever format you choose. the thing with a RESTful server is that it isn't necessarily stored as JSON, XML, HTML, or what have you
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cuibonobo the server is simply responding in a way that you've specified, but the internal representation may be completely different
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fwr Accept-Post: text/turtle, text/n3, application/json
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fwr state what you accept in OPTIONS
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aaronpk_ this all sounds good in theory. I am curious if anyone has actually implemented this on their own site.
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kylewm ah interesting
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: this is what i'm doing for my own site. i haven't pushed my stuff to my actual website yet, but the dev version of my server can respond in XML, JSON, or HTML, depending on your Accept header
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fwr any graph-patch formats?
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aaronpk_ cuibonobo: sweet. maybe I will try it out!
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: at the moment i've got GET working for everything. POSTing and PATCHing nested data is hard. Also, how do i represent OPTIONS? very sticky
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cuibonobo i guess that's just a header response, but still
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aaronpk_ you could always avoid nested data by requiring all nested data have its own URL
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aaronpk_ which actually seems more RESTful
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kylewm nested data like reply contexts and comments?
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kylewm or more granular than that?
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aaronpk_ I was assuming thingsl ike locations
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: there's instances where that doesn't make sense. for example 'location': {'latitude':34,'longitude':-74}
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aaronpk_ yes for raw lat/lng having a URL is kind of overkill
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aaronpk_ but still would technically work
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aaronpk_ and the URL could show a map centered at that location
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aaronpk_ the URL could even be something like http://map.geoloqi.com/45.51,-122.64
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cuibonobo well, in this case, latitude is nested in location. i can't show a location unless i have both
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cuibonobo shoot. looking into it more, HTML forms don't support PUT, PATCH, or DELETE. waat.
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aaronpk_ oh I thought you knew that
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aaronpk_ that's the main reason I didn't bother with anything except GET and POST for micropub
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cuibonobo the human interface of HTTP doesn't support all the verbs. i'm heartbroken
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gregorlove.com created /rest (+18) "r" (view diff)
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tantek cuibonobo: I believe there were proposals (e.g. for HTML5) to extend HTML forms to support more HTTP verbs, however, the lack of apparent real world (public web) usage of them made them uninteresting / hypothetical more than practical.
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shaners good morning-ish, sailors!
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shaners reads logs
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gRegor` Hiya, shaners
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@kevinmarks RT @TapestryMaker: Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517759219647676416)
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shaners The way Rails pretends like all of the verbs are supported is to put a hidden field on form with a name of _method and value of put or delete.
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tantek the full suite of HTTP verbs were likely overdesigned a priori, which was "common practice" in that age of standards development
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ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, i forgot that about rails
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@techlifeweb RT @TapestryMaker: Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517761028654780416)
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ben_thatmustbeme didn't really like rails personally
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KevinMarks_ CRUD can be really problematic. You don't necessarily want delegates to delete things, or send poorly framed updates
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aaronpk_ that's what the "scope" of the access token is for
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aaronpk_ so you can grant a micropub client access only to create things
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tantek nice
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ben_thatmustbeme also, a choice for the server to implement or not
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tantek I remember Flickr's auth having different levels for upload, update, delete
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KevinMarks_ Right, but if you think in crud terms you're assuming that the client knows best
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aaronpk_ sounds like we should update the micropub page to figure out full CRUD and also document scopes for each
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reedstrm shaners: morning? You must be ...a New Zealander? Ah but morning-ish - merely a PDT dweller, then?
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@jacarandachick RT @TapestryMaker: Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517761422605180930)
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks_ I'm assuming you use a client you trust
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tantek KevinMarks: huh? that doesn't follow? where do you jump to "assuming that the client knows best" ?!?
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shaners reedstrm: Nope. Just slept way the fuck in. #funemployed
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KevinMarks_ POST keeps it clear that the server is managing integrity
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reedstrm Ah, PST: personal Standard Time
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KevinMarks_ PUT means the client is
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KevinMarks_ Here's a concrete example from experience
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tantek KevinMarks: why should you have to make *either* a single point of failure? that seems like a methdological flaw
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, talking about REST vs MP not MP & CRUD
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KevinMarks_ Google contacts built a CRUD REST api because that was the CS way to do it
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KevinMarks_ Apple used this to integrate contacts with the iPhone
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cuibonobo (what is 'the CS way'?)
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ben_thatmustbeme the counter strike way... throw a grenade?
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cuibonobo ben_thatmustbeme: i like it.
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tantek haha cuibonobo for avoiding Loqi's query. you can also use "what's" instead of "what is" to do that ;)
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reedstrm Compter Science - KevinMarks is trying to gently disparage Theory over Practice ...
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KevinMarks_ The accepted computer science wisdom that crud is ideal and rest maps to crud
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tantek whoa KevinMarks [citation needed]
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cuibonobo tantek: i meant the parenthesis more in an 'this seems to be a term i'm supposed to know, but i don't' kind of way
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tantek says the MSCS grad - looks for diploma - darn it - forgot to frame it and put it on the wall like a dentist or doctor.
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KevinMarks_ I'm saying this was an implicit assumption by that team
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, you never got the PhD Either?
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reedstrm KevinMarks - Ah, personal knowledge!
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ben_thatmustbeme regrets only that he is not called a doctor.
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: couldn't wait to go work on "real things"
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shaners I'm an art school drop out, personally.
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reedstrm suddenly remembers KMs bio
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KevinMarks_ However, the contacts models were different - gmail added everyone you ever emailed to contacts so that autocomplete worked
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tantek also observed that the industry was advancing the state of the art faster / better than PhDs (with the exception of a few fields like NLP, computer vision, robotics)
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KevinMarks_ But iPhone contacts were manually curated by users
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aaronpk_ google contacts pretty much screwed up my entire idea of an address book because of the auto-entered gmail contacts
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tantek KevinMarks: please do not conflate this with the contacts kerfluffle.
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KevinMarks_ They didn't like all those bare email addresses
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aaronpk_ ever since I started using gmail I stopped maintaining an address book at all
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tantek horrible example. no one does contacts across 2+ devices well.
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ben_thatmustbeme moves off topic stuff to #indiechat
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KevinMarks_ And deleted them
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reedstrm In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice ...
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KevinMarks_ Breaking gmail autocomplete
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, another reason I'd like to move my contacts list in to my personal site
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reedstrm So, gmail abused contacts to store bare emails. This teachs us ... what?
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tantek the cloud is squishy
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reedstrm (not snark, looking for the linkage ...)
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tantek btw, Apple / iCloud silo is *still* losing people's contacts: https://twitter.com/mezzoblue/status/508684918575357952
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@mezzoblue iCloud decided to delete all my contacts and now I have to guess at who's texting me by the phone number. #its2000again (twitter.com/_/status/508684918575357952)
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tantek less than a month ago
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, i just had to reset all my wife's calendars since iOS got confused and stopped showing any google calendar data
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aaronpk_ so uh, keybase deleted my public key https://keybase.io/aaronpk/key.asc
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tantek yup. the field is wide open for someone to "fix" contacts/calendar multi-device support
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tantek everyone has failed
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cuibonobo aaronpk_: what the hell. why would they do that.
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aaronpk_ wait, where did my account go
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aaronpk_ https://keybase.io/aaronpk
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tantek silos gonna silo
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cuibonobo indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme silos--
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Loqi silos has -1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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tantek what is keybase?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "keybase" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=keybase
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reedstrm I'm finding myself intrigued by trello's handling of due dates anda calendar view of them.
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tantek Loqi, perhaps with a "Criticism" section?
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tantek what is trello?
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Loqi Trello is a popular online project management/note taking/ticket system http://indiewebcamp.com/Trello
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aaronpk_ kylewm is gone too https://keybase.io/kylewm
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cuibonobo i get "Unknown user. Fix thy typo or join." when i try to log in
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cuibonobo looks like they deleted everything
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tantek maybe they had a database corruption?
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tantek ducks
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reedstrm I don't actually _want_ to use a calendar event as a primary data type to manipulate- I want to have a date based view of stuff I hgave to do.
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ben_thatmustbeme hahaha
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aaronpk_ tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 89 karma
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tantek oh, and any service that does claim to support contacts syncing and asks you to import? you might want to look out for: https://twitter.com/mathowie/status/309417266842308608
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@mathowie With three clicks, I (accidentally) asked 1138 people to connect on LinkedIn using their import feature. Goddammit, I hate you LinkedIn. (twitter.com/_/status/309417266842308608)
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tantek and yeah that was just last year
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tantek what is linkedin?
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Loqi LinkedIn is a special-purpose silo for hosting your professional resume / history http://indiewebcamp.com/LinkedIn
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tantek well look at that, no Criticism section...
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aaronpk_ I noticed my keybase account was gone because I tried signing in on indieauth.com with my GPG key
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aaronpk_ that's what I get for not hosting my own public key
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ben_thatmustbeme just put that tweet in the criticism section to start
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kylewm keybase seems to be back up
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cuibonobo seems like logging in brought stuff back ok keybase.io
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tantek on it
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aaronpk_ oh weird now my profile is back
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cuibonobo weird hiccup
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aaronpk_ I tried logging in before and it didn't let me, and a password reset failed too.
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aaronpk_ https://twitter.com/maxtaco/status/517765576530210816
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@maxtaco @aaronpk @KeybaseIO Sorry, bug fixed! Transient outage. Should work as before (twitter.com/_/status/517765576530210816)
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aaronpk_ they must have temporariliy pointed production at an empty database
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cuibonobo hah. ok.
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tantek.com edited /LinkedIn (+565) "Criticism section" (view diff)
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aaronpk_ tantek: here you go:
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aaronpk_ https://twitter.com/maxtaco/status/517766680240324608
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@maxtaco @aaronpk @KeybaseIO Yeah we lost the DB connection in our Web process so all queries were failing. Weird, first time we've seen that bug. (twitter.com/_/status/517766680240324608)
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reedstrm auto-reconnect is a good thing ...
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tantek BOOM
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ben_thatmustbeme watches for the first stone to fly
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reedstrm confused?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: who needs stones when you've got public citations FOR ALL TIME?
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ben_thatmustbeme until the chat logs or twitter's DB goes down
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cuibonobo hah
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@kirilind Ello, Known, #indieweb, and life after "Peak Facebook" http://stream.tapestrymaker.net/2014/ello-known-indieweb-and-life-after-peak-facebook (twitter.com/_/status/517767711858753536)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that's what archive.org is for ;) which stores data in ...
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reedstrm Have heard a certain pundit on a podcast who uses his tween daughter and her friends as leading indicators. They consider FB a way to talk to Grandma. Using Dad's account.
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ben_thatmustbeme i believe loqi uses a DB correct \'; select * from logs;
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Loqi :)
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aaronpk_ ben_thatmustbeme: it's way worse than that
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ben_thatmustbeme ?
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tantek.com edited /LinkedIn (+156) "and the blog post LinkedIn is a Virus" (view diff)
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aaronpk_ Loqi is a perl script that shells out to a PHP script
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cuibonobo covers loqi's ears
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh. I knew loqi was perl, but didn't know he ran php too
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reedstrm my only beef w/ archive.org: they let domain squatters hide history, w/ a deny all robots.txt
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tantek.com created /keybase (+21) "cap" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme is tempted to fire up a hubot and call him Thor
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aaronpk_ :)
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tantek reedstrm: agreed. that's a pretty big beef too.
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petermolnar Thor should be a bit dumber, but much stronger
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dlyke reedstrm: Friend's teen daughter: "Facebook is where I talk to people I know, but don't like, Tumblr is where I talk to people I like but don't know."
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe Thor would not talk, just do the autovoice bits we were talking about
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aaronpk_ darn, Thor is registered
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ben_thatmustbeme darn too late 'aaronpk_ :Nickname is already in use.'
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aaronpk_ ha
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ben_thatmustbeme i'd be surprised if Thor wasn't registered
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tantek.com created /Keybase (+459) "stub with dfn, outage, see also" (view diff)
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reedstrm dang, Þor isn't available either
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm bored so lets test Loqi.. <style>body{background-color:pink;}</style>
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ben_thatmustbeme good loqi
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gRegor` Thor bot could just randomly say "This digital form has grown weak. I need sustenance!"
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ben_thatmustbeme thorbot taken?
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tantek gRegor`: that sounds like botnoise
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tantek I like that everything Loqi says is in response to *something* - even if it sometimes external events like wiki edits and tweets.
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ben_thatmustbeme nods
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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ben_thatmustbeme although he has a tendency to say some silly things at times
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ben_thatmustbeme Loqi
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ben_thatmustbeme hey anomalily
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tantek Loqi knows to ignore you when he's been mentioned too often.
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gRegor` (only being funny. :)
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kylewm reedstrm: I have that exact problem with my old domain and archive.org, very sad
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tantek I wonder if that could be fixed with https archiving and cert pinning
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tantek where a *new* site with bad robots.txt couldn't cause the previous/old https site with cert to go away
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ben_thatmustbeme does it make sense to ever be able to syndicate bookmarks?
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aaronpk_ sure why not?
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aaronpk_ tantek: I like that idea!
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: whether or not it makes sense, adactio does it
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tantek he POSSEs his bookmark / "link" posts on adactio.com to their own twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme okay then, just deciding if i should keep support in my model or not
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tantek 130 followers currently: https://twitter.com/adactioLinks
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tantek what are links?
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Loqi A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is typically comprised of a URL and optional text accompanying it http://indiewebcamp.com/links
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cuibonobo reedstrm: i wouldn't be too hard on archive.org. i doubt they have the resources to undergo a legal battle.
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cuibonobo instead, i would urge all indiewebbers to archive the stuff you read
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reedstrm I did note that it's my _only_ beef with them.
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cuibonobo to your own server that is
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tantek what is indiearchive?
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reedstrm I had the privilege of eating dinner seated next to Brewster Kahle several (many?) years ago, at a conference. He was an engaging dinner companion.
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Loqi IndieArchive is a project to collaboratively grow an archive of pages replied to (possibly also mentioned) in indie web posts http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive
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benwerd ben_thatmustbeme We have a (community-written) Diigo POSSE plugin for bookmarks.
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tantek cuibonobo: ^^^ how to do that in a collaborative and distributed manner :)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+1083) "/* Fragile */ subheads, clarify MySQL instance, add DB connection loss with Keybase and WordPress citations" (view diff)
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reedstrm And don't underestimate their legal savvy: they've gotten themselves certain exemptions for copyright purposes
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reedstrm I'd think the correct approach for them would be to archive the WHOIS data for domains as well, and only honor robots.txt if the ownership matched.
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ben_thatmustbeme hey benwerd, how goes the Known startup storm?
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ben_thatmustbeme s/startup/popularity
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: hey benwerd, how goes the Known popularity storm?
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cuibonobo tantek: using git is an excellent idea. i wish we could push to it though (instead of depending on a maintainer to pull)
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reedstrm loves loqi's sed interpreter
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Loqi hugs reedstrm
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ben_thatmustbeme reedstrm, i've made loqi repeat things in pig latin that way
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benwerd ben_thatmustbeme: Good, thanks! Concentrating on features for our hosted Pro accounts, as well as a few interesting general functions that address common questions
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ben_thatmustbeme s/\b([^aeiou ]*)(\w+)\b/\2\1ay/gi
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: eedstrmray, iaye'vay ademay oqilay epeatray ingsthay inay igpay atinlay atthay ayway
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tantek cuibonobo: I think aaronpk and barnabywalters have indiearchive implementations of various degrees
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benwerd ben_thatmustbeme: Best thing has been the feedback button in the top right of every page; we get a lot of emails every day, and they're all super useful.
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ben_thatmustbeme benwerd, excellent. its really nice to have something polished out there
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ben_thatmustbeme or being polished
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benwerd Ha, thanks! It's still version 0.6 - lots and lots more to do.
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benwerd I'm actually staring at my tasklist in a combination of horror and denial right now.
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ben_thatmustbeme hahaha, but imagine how great it will feel when you get half way through
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benwerd :)
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reedstrm So, did Leo's show kick this off, or just ride the wave?
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't say done, tasklists never get done
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ben_thatmustbeme just longer or shorter
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benwerd reedstrm: Leo's show blew us away. It's responsible for lots of interest - although we also had demo day the very next day, as well as Gigaom and Wired.
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reedstrm Ah, so a well orchestrated PR campaign, then.
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benwerd "Orchestrated" is a strong word, but it worked out really well :)
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reedstrm Hmm, thinking about thinkup in relation to indieweb ...
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cuibonobo re: indiearchive, given all the parameters / algorithms that services currently employ to determine the content to show you, i wonder if at least the access location should be stored as well
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auli.haldjas.org edited /IRC_People (+54) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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tantek what is thinkup?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "thinkup" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=thinkup
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aaronpk_ oh cuibonobo, I just remembered, for plain lat/lng you can always use geo URIs, like geo:45.52173,-122.67813
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tantek cuibonobo: also why h-card flattened usage of p-latitude p-longitude and p-altitude http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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aaronpk_ i'm about to attempt to post a note to my site from my pebble watch via micropub
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tantek no need to wrap them in an h-geo nested object for the simple case
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tantek same with structured addresses and optional h-adr
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tantek aaronpk - wat? what input device does pebble watch have? morse code via tapping?
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aaronpk_ it's gonna be a pre-filled list of posts (food)
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tantek how is that a "note" ?
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tantek rather than a /collection ?
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aaronpk_ you will see
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aaronpk_ eventually
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cuibonobo tantek: this is an interesting example. i had concluded to simply flatten my parameters and use dot notation. i.e. location.latitude, location.longitude
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tantek for what object?
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aaronpk_ dot notation?! but the latitude and longitude may also contain decimal points
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cuibonobo like this: ?location.latitude="40.0"&location.longitude="50.0"
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aaronpk_ oh gotcha
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tantek is going to keep quiet about OctalGeo.
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ben_thatmustbeme continues to watch brid.gy fixes by way of his e-mail
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bret.io created /OWL (+163) "Created page with "<dfn>OWL</dfn> is the Web Ontology Language, a layer above RDF to define the classes and properties used in RDF, as well as to describe the relations between them."" (view diff)
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aaronpk_ boom http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/02/1/
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 570 karma
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bret aaronpk_: how did you input that?
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aaronpk_ the string was hard-coded into my app :P
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aaronpk_ but it's a good proof of concept
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tantek cuibonobo re: HTTP verbs, you might be interested in: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2013/08/lets-remove-verbs-from-http-20.html
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tantek waits for aaronpk to learn morse code and implement morse code tap-to-text in his pebble
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tantek so he can secretly post short text notes when in a compromised situation
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KartikPrabhu re OWL... now we need a layer over RDF which is a layer over HTML... jeees
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tantek KartikPrabhu: turtle(s) all the way down. pun intended.
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KartikPrabhu :)
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cuibonobo tantek: i'm surprised at this. putting stuff like DELETE in the request header seems like needless obfuscation
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tantek cuibonobo: see also https://annevankesteren.nl/2007/10/http-methods
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tantek so yes, there's a growing set of folks thinking along the lines of just 3 verbs: GET, POST, HEAD
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tantek for HTTP at least
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tantek btw Brett (onebigfluke) is co-inventor/author of PuSH
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tantek so he has some familiarity with this space :)
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cuibonobo tantek: are there useless verbs? sure. replace DELETE with POST? no.
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tantek cuibonobo: why not? seems to work for webmention comment CRUD
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tantek in fact it keeps webmention *much* simpler by doing so
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cuibonobo the beautiful thing about verbs is that they describe action. removing verbs just pushes the vocabulary to either the object you're sending or the headers
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cuibonobo i honestly can't fathom why anyone would advocate for *removing* vocabulary.
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cuibonobo what is this, 1984?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "this, 1984" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=this%2C+1984
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tantek when you can inspect the state of an object for information, better to retrieve from that than an ephemeral parameter in a protocol
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tantek because simpler machine vocabularies are a good thing and not to be confused with squishy human vocabularies
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cuibonobo but how would you know that any particular parameter describes the action?
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tantek simpler = easier implementations, lower security surface etc.
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tantek simplify all the (machine) things!
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finchd isn't webdav the only thing built on HTTP that actually uses all of those verbs? CREATE, DELETE, etc?
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aaronpk_ i'd love to get some opinions on markup for this new post type
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aaronpk_ I'm working on publishing food and drink that I consume
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bret aaronpk_: make it look like its displayed on your pebl watch, but on your website
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aaronpk_ my raw data is basically https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/2f5a67d855bc47597092
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tantek aaronpk - but how do you want to present it? publish some without explicit markup (e.g. in a note) and then we can analyze based on real world example(s)
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tantek and then work out vocab backwards from that
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tantek rather than forward from raw data
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aaronpk_ I'm thinking it will be like "Ate a burrito" or "Drank a coffee" so that it matches the things like "Slept from..."
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tantek start with what you want the humans to see
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tantek a-ha - like adactio and toast
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bret "does this bagel and creme cheese count as pizza?"
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tantek was the bagel toasted? and half a bagel or both halves?
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bret aaronpk_: can you just assign emoji to different foods, and then make a timeline and put the emoji on the different parts of the line?
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aaronpk_ lolol
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tantek food emoji are so limited :(
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bret coffee = sushi2
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek #firstworldproblems
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: find me an emoji for glass of water :P
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bret aaronpk_: or do a time based histogram of the foods
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ben_thatmustbeme can't, about to run to catch the train home
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kylewm cuibonobo: it makes sense to me to limit the HTTP verbs since you couldn’t possibly enumerate all the possible verbs some application might want. PUT, PATCH, DELETE seem very likely to be misused or bastardized for some slightly different purpose than intended
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aaronpk_ bret: that's all later stuff. I just need something for my http://aaronparecki.com/metrics page
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bret aaronpk_: yeah im saying make at most 1 entry per day that is a food histogram
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cuibonobo kylewm: admittedly, I've only used HEAD, GET, POST, PATCH, and DELETE. those map nicely to CRUD too. i feel like the author of this article was just hungry for clicks.
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aaronpk_ bret: interesting. that sorta seems like a collection tho.
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aaronpk_ could be a good summary visualization
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bret i guess you could give each item in the histogram a url
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tantek what is food?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "food" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=food
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tantek what is a meal?
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bret aaronpk_: depends on how much you want to break it down
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "meal" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=meal
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tantek what is a drink?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "drink" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=drink
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bret what is a draaaank?
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tantek what is eat?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "draaaank" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=draaaank
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "eat" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=eat
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@yoz @calliaphone Known is part of #indieweb, whose premise is “hey, maybe we should be posting our thoughts & pics on sites we actually own” (twitter.com/_/status/517788755785420800)
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kylewm cuibonobo: do you know of any public webservices that use ^{GET, POST} ? I’m only really familiar with FB, Twitter, Wordpress, Disqus APIs
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cuibonobo kylewm: github also uses PUT and DELETE
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cuibonobo ah! turns out they use PATCH too
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bret aaronpk_: unless you wanted to tie in coffeetime with these meal metrics, (ie sending webmentions about 'dat coffee' so and so owes you) i dont see the purpose for having urls for each food item
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aaronpk_ bret: each item has a timestamp of when I ate it
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tantek dt-consumed lol
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aaronpk_ lol
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bret sure, that would be preserved in the collection, similar to your sleep logs
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kylewm cuibonobo: interesting, thanks!
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cuibonobo kylewm: oh! amazon's S3 also uses more verbs. DELETE and POST.
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cuibonobo *PUT
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KartikPrabhu how does one delete a post though micropub?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: looks like you can’t officially. ben_thatmustbeme uses a special field operation=’delete’
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tantek__ see implementation extension IRL: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Explicit_CRUD
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KartikPrabhu hmm seems like this HTTP verb things are useful, except they can't be used with HTML forms for some strange reason
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KartikPrabhu adding a field to do CRUD seems like reinventing the verb thingie
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tantek__ does some research to answer Kartik's HTML form question
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: since PUT and DELETE don't exist in HTML forms, you'd only be able to perform them with AJAX
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: yeah
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KartikPrabhu annoying
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aaronpk_ keep in mind that if you send a DELETE request to the micropub endpoint that's implying you're trying to delete the micropub endpoint
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cuibonobo exactly. DELETE requests should only be sent to the specific thing you want to delete
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KartikPrabhu tantek__ there is this http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/211790 which makes no sense to me
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk_ I know and that is not my goal anyway
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aaronpk_ right now micropub defines two parameters, "h" and "url"
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aaronpk_ everything else is part of the content of the post
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KartikPrabhu if I am making a post interface for my site, I want a delete action
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cuibonobo we were discussing before that making all of your URLs responsive like that would be impossible on a static site. so micropub is responding to the situation in which it would be used
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Loqi gives KartikPrabhu a delete action
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KartikPrabhu thanks Loqi!
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk_ create: h=entry update: h=entry&url=...
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aaronpk_ so what should delete look like?
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu, specifically see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10671 and https://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/195
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KartikPrabhu ok but why even have those verbs in HTTP then? or even AJAx?
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KartikPrabhu re write the spec and get rid of them
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tantek__ short answer, looks like the model of how PUT and DELETE in a <form> should work is undefined, and the door has been left open to someone (anyone) writing up an HTML5 extension specification that defines their behavior and then tries to get browser interested in implementing them.
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aaronpk_ any word that is chosen for the parameter name cannot be used as a content field of the post
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu - " why even have those verbs in HTTP then?" exactly
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tantek__ hence Brett (onebigfluke) proposal to drop them
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KartikPrabhu oh ok tantek__ why have POST, lets use one verb REQUEST
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu - POST is well defined, interoperably implemented
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tantek__ at both HTML and HTTP layers
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tantek__ so in short, it works (well), don't break it :)
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KartikPrabhu this is going around in circles
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: PUT and DELETE have a specific semantic meaning and when I sent a request with those methods, the server should always respond in the same way
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tantek__ much easier to advocate dropping things that never made it to the user visible bits
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KartikPrabhu tantek__ no one uses it because there is no spec, there is no spec because no one uses it
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: POST on the other hand, doesn't have that limitation. it's expected that the state of the server will continuously change if i continue sending POST requests
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cuibonobo (which is why forms will warn you about sending data again)
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu - you are referring to the chicken/egg problem. however note that plenty of standards have overcome that, so it's not a reasonable excuse.
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: yeah. I know you can't mung everything into one verb, :)
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tantek__ hence my point about if you really care, start with writing an HTML5 extension spec for PUT/DELETE - others may be interested as well
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tantek__ might want to start with a use-case for having such FORM functionality in HTML
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KartikPrabhu tantek__ it seems people who write specs are not interested in using it, and people who want to use it are not interested in witing a spec so it will be in this limbo forever
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tantek__ the separation of functionality between HEAD, GET, POST seems quite nice and minimal
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KartikPrabhu tantek__ I want to make a button to delete a post
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tantek__ minimal info, idempotent retrieval, change something
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cuibonobo tantek__: but POST is not idempotent?
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tantek__ cuibonobo no - as you observed
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tantek__ " (which is why forms will warn you about sending data again)"
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cuibonobo i meant the question mark ironically
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tantek__ my point is that that conceptual separation into only 3 categories of action is quite elegant
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tantek__ and good design from a modularity perspective
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tantek__ and leave the spectrum of what *kinds* of changes you want to make up to another layer
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tantek__ KartikPrabuhu "to delete a post" - you'd use an HTTP POST - with additional semantics
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cuibonobo as i think about it more, i begin to realize that the needs of people and the needs of machines are different. removing everything but HEAD, GET, and POST addresses the needs of people (who are able to reason about sending form data twice)
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cuibonobo meanwhile, a machine can't reason about anything. if a machine is unsure that a request was sent, it can simply PUT again.
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KartikPrabhu tantek__ too many turtles for me already
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tantek__ cuibonobo - precisely. everything needs to have a thread back to the needs of the people (user-centered / use-case-centered design)
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu turtles != modules
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KartikPrabhu or layers
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tantek__ building blocks are a good thing
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KartikPrabhu you like 3 types of verbs, others like 5 <shrug>
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KartikPrabhu "doesn't save lives" so...
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cuibonobo and what if *i* am unsure that a request was processed? (because of network issues or what have you) i can PUT again. PUT != POST
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu - experience has shown *lots* of variance in that "5" number. but not in those 3.
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KartikPrabhu I just made it into 1
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KartikPrabhu REQUEST is the verbs and not use additional layer to say what kind of request. It can be done, no one wants to do it.
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tantek__ what you made into 1 sounds like an unnecessary layer of abstraction
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KartikPrabhu same with POST + additional semantics... sounds unnecessary to me
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KartikPrabhu too many layers for me, but well
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tantek__ it defers needing to define a full set of changing verbs
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tantek__ which clearly people have added to over time
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tantek__ per the above references (e.g. annevk's research)
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tantek__ cuibonobo your point about PUT is a good one. will think on that some more.
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tantek__ cuibonobo are you saying PUT is an idempotent change?
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cuibonobo it is by definition
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tantek__ ok I understand your distinction now.
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tantek__ the other aspect which I feel is grossly neglected in any HTTP verb model (which is hinted at in http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Explicit_CRUD ) is the *user* notion of being able to UNDO changes.
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shaners Oof. I left the channel hours ago and came back to find yall are still talking about HTTP verbs. :P
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tantek__ If I was going to start *anywhere* with looking at changes to this HTML+HTTP layering, I'd start with UIs that provide *UNDO* support.
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tantek__ IMO that's far more interesting/important than arguing about why not PUT/DELETE etc.
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tantek__ shaners, welcome the broader conversation that is /micropub
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tantek__ s/the/to the
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Loqi tantek__ meant to say: shaners, welcome to the broader conversation that is /micropub
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shaners oh sure. i read the logs. ;)
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tantek__ AFAIK no one has implemented any form of "Undo" in their micropub clients - except maybe OpenBlog?
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cuibonobo tantek__: RESTful architectures specifically push UI concerns to the client. your application needs to keep a cache of your recent operations and essentially PUT back any DELETEs, for example
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shaners This whole To REST or Not To REST always feels religous to me. Like To DB or Not To DB.
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tantek__ shaners - I think that's a misreading - of both debates, each of which cite *specific* problems / concerns / use-cases. not religous [sic]
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cuibonobo shaners: absolutely. and in the context of micropub specifically, REST doesn't make sense
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tantek__ the static site use-case is a very good pragmatic reason against REST
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cuibonobo exactly
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tantek__ that is, user use-case trumps any notion of architectural purity
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KevinMarks___ Undo is the argument against crud
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shaners I've always thought that if you don't like REST, don't use it.
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cuibonobo well, architectural purity is useless if the thing doesn't work
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tantek__ cuibonobo thank you for clarifying that for me - that's the first time I've had it explained to me that simply.
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tantek__ the bit about static-sites vs. REST
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tantek__ excellent insight and observation
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KevinMarks___ Update and delete should affect edit history, not be irrevocable
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tantek__ Kevinmarks, interesting posit
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tantek__ are you proposing CRUDU?
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KevinMarks___ It's the "keep all the versions" argument
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tantek__ ok I'm convinced
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cuibonobo KevinMarks___: i feel like you're just shifting the problem. instead of your data store being your source of truth, now your edit history is
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tantek__ (Create + Undo) = unsend (per gmail extension)
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tantek__ (Update + Undo) = revert
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KevinMarks___ which is a deep architectural one, as it moves us off a von neumann architecture to a functional one
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tantek__ (Delete + Undo) = undelete
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tantek__ each of those (unsend, revert, undelete) are *user* level features
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KevinMarks___ Even sql has commit and rollback
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tantek__ and use of "Undo" provides the flexibility of leaving state tracking up to the *server* rather than (any number of) clients
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KartikPrabhu hmm so now I should store history of changes somewhere too
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cuibonobo tantek__: it's interesting you mention gmail. in the app, unsend doesn't *actually* unsend. the app is simply waiting a predetermined time before sending. once the email is actually sent, you're SOL
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KartikPrabhu this is getting more complicated
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KevinMarks___ That's the git worldview
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KartikPrabhu yeah and git isn't so easy to use for me at least
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tantek__ cuibonobo: similarly, I'm working on delayed POSSE, so I can unpost
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KevinMarks___ http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/05/keep-all-versions.html
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KevinMarks___ Is my longer essay / rant on this
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tantek__ cuibonobo re: "cache of your recent operations and essentially PUT back any DELETEs, for example" - in an unreliable network environment (the usual), that's not a reasonable assumption, especially without transactional integrity.
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cuibonobo tantek__: your app shouldn't clear its history until it gets the 200 OK i would imagine
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tantek__ I should be able to hit "Post" from my laptop, pack it up, walk away, realize, OOPS, open my mobile device, and press Undo.
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finchd undo with email is very hard, because allowing one user on this server to delete email (ostensibly the one they sent) from other people's inboxes on *all* other servers (or worse if they collect their mail on their personal machines (which may be offline)) is asking to get abused
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Loqi agreed.
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tantek__ finchd - unsend in practice is only delayed send.
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finchd Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 302 karma
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finchd tantek__: exactly, because real usend would take a fundamental security/identity rewrite
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tantek__ and IMO delayed send works GREAT in practice for enabling unsend
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cuibonobo tantek__: this can be solved with immutable posts. your server should keep all versions.
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tantek__ cuibonobo I'm not sure what that means in terms of UI
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tantek__ I'm talking about having "Publish" as a button, and then "Unpublish" (for some period of time)
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tantek__ per gmail unsend analogy / example
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tantek__ and being able to do that across clients = can't depend on any one client to cache state and use that
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KartikPrabhu tantek__ does "unpublish" exist in Wordpress already?
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cuibonobo tantek__: but the gmail example won't work for the 'work on your laptop, undo on your mobile device' example
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tantek__ KartikPrabhu - not AFAIK
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cuibonobo so you can't depend on a delay
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tantek__ cuibonobo you're right - that's a new feature that I want for my own site
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finchd storing all versions probably is the (between devices) answer, but only works on your site, it can't guarantee that it removes your POSSE/PESOS stuff from everywhere it got relayed to
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tantek__ I was only using the gmail unsend example as a way of hinting at step one of this kind of user-model thinking
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tantek__ finchd - hence delayed POSSE (as noted above), similar to delayed *actual* send
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tantek__ I would also delay the PuSH and feed update as well
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cuibonobo in order to get undo from any device to work: create a post (version 1), delete the post (version 2), undo the delete (version 3 == restoring the data from version 1)
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KartikPrabhu tantek__ just checked in Wordpress you can change the status of post from "Published" to "Draft" or "In Review" at any time
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tantek__ except in actual UI terms, deleting and undoing a post have very different UX expectations
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finchd tantek__: ooh, sorry, yes. also DB-backed sites could delay display, then you could do inter-device time-limited undo
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tantek__ e.g. undoing a post (send) drops you back into the editor
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tantek__ finchd - should work with either DB-backend or file-storage backend - pretty sure that plumbing should be transparent for this use-case
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cuibonobo tantek__: it's best for your editing app to work that out i think. no need to overload your data store with that knowledge
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tantek__ cuibonobo - not overloading, point is that information has to be somewhere client-independent otherwise the UI can't work it out
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tantek__ also you can always delete. point of undoing a post/send is that it's a time-limited operation.
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tantek__ e.g. 30-60 seconds timeout
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tantek__ undoing a post != delete. they're very different from a UX perspective
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cuibonobo but why does your data store need to know anything about UX?
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tantek__ your data store needs to store whatever bits the UX needs to reconstruct the state for the user, that's why it cares.
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KevinMarks___ Is quantum wavefunction collapse the expiry of the universe's undo buffer?
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tantek__ Undo is hard UX. Perhaps why only gmail (in an extension no less) implements it in popular usage.
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cuibonobo your editing application should be aware of the context in which the user performed an action by keeping a time-limited cache. my primary data store doesn't need to know about any of that.
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tantek__ we only disagree about the time-limit being a cache. and being on the client vs. the server.
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tantek__ *a* client vs. *the* server I should say
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KevinMarks___ Well, Gdrive and macos /iOS are undo based filesystems now
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dlyke Interesting notion here of undo attached to a data store rather than a device... Although I'd suggest that some sites' time limited edit windows are similar...
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KevinMarks___ The end of save and the addition of revert
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cuibonobo tantek__: ah. i realize why we disagree. "your data store needs to store whatever bits the UX needs to reconstruct the state for the user". in the interest of separation of concerns, i disagree with this.
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cuibonobo but i suppose you *could* store the state on the server!
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finchd cuibonobo: where else do you store something 2+ clients should know?
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KartikPrabhu that is the thing with REST right? server does not store client states
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KevinMarks___ This gets more important if it is a shared resource
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cuibonobo finchd: in the model that i proposed, the server would simply store all the different versions of a piece of content. it's up to the application to make sense of those versions to provide a meaningful experience
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: possibly using timestamps to time-order from multiple clients?
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KevinMarks___ And whether it stores them as snapshots or edits is invisible to the clients?
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KevinMarks___ Then we get into operational transforms for edit order independence
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shaners If any of you are interested in this, some friends of mine have just launched an alpha test of a private self-hosted Heroku like thing called Vektra. http://discuss.vektra.com/t/welcome-alpha-warriors/8
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shaners And they're using Homesteading's Notes as their demo app. #indieweb!
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tantek what is Vektra?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Vektra" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Vektra
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tantek shaners ^^^ :)
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@AnastasiaAshman @benwerd @erinjo, founders of @withknown, do you know @teacher_suzy #founder of @tinker_ed? You should! #edtech #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/517804961363529728)
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shaners I'VE BEEN TANTEKED! ;)
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tantek cuibonobo: separation of concerns is only useful when it helps implementation practice - otherwise it leads down the horrible path of java-style seemingly infinite call stacks.
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tantek in this case, I'm positing that storing that information on the server (undo-ness, timing) actually simplifies implementation on both server and clients, likely improves reliability too. of course actual answers will have to await an actual implementation. so just opinion for now.
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tantek recalls something about HTTP supposing to be stateless, implying all state stored on the server.
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cuibonobo tantek: indeed! all state about the *resource* should live on the server, which is why i call it my 'point of truth'. application and user states are another thing entirely
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tantek I don't think users understand "application and user states" being different, thus just "state".
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tantek even as someone who might understand "application and user states" being different, I don't want to have to think about that. I don't want that cognitive load in a user interface that I myself use.
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KevinMarks___ This was interesting along that line http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MarkMennell/20140929/226628/Making_FastPaced_Multiplayer_Networked_Games_is_Hard.php
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cuibonobo tantek: if your application is well-designed, the user doesn't have to think about anything. server state lives on the server, application state lives on the application, and the user doesn't have to care about any of that
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tantek network unreliability interferes with any chance of that
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cuibonobo if your application is well-designed, it will respond to server status codes and the like. just like everything else.
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cuibonobo for example, if i have my gmail app open and disconnect my internet, the app knows that it can no longer communicate with the server and lets me know
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KevinMarks___ Which is easy for email, but harder for documents with shared edits
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iamshane.com created /Vektra (+1655) "Vektra" (view diff)
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shaners What is vektra?
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Loqi Vektra is a platform as a service (PaaS) that can be run locally on your own computer or "in the cloud" on a server http://indiewebcamp.com/Vektra
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shaners Does Loqi truncate at the punctuation or at a character length?
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Loqi who, me?
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shaners Yes, you.
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aaronpk_ tries to find a single sentence
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shaners kthx
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aaronpk_ you can also add an explicit p-summary tag around it
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iamshane.com edited /Vektra (-13) "improve dfn sentence" (view diff)
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shaners What is vektra?
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Loqi Vektra is a (largely) Heroku-compatible platform as a service (PaaS) that can be run locally on your own computer or "in the cloud" on a server http://indiewebcamp.com/Vektra
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shaners What is Heroku?
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Loqi Heroku is a platform as a service (PaaS) that supports Ruby, Java, Node.js, Scala, Clojure, Python, PHP and others http://indiewebcamp.com/Heroku
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shaners Good enough for government work!
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shaners I wonder if @benwerd had anythign to do with this? #chicken http://ilovecharts.tumblr.com/post/52230805255/mikeyfriskeyhands-my-brother-saved-this
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rascul.io edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+221) "/* Apprentices */ add my apprentice jessie" (view diff)
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cuibonobo i only hang out on #indiewebcamp for the chicken references
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benwerd shaners: No, but seek out the video of the live presentation. It's a sight to behold.
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shaners i can only imagine
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cuibonobo the audience's laughter is infectious! also: chickens
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gRegor` After catching up on the logs, I need a . . . rest
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cuibonobo OH NO HE DIDN'T
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cuibonobo ;_
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cuibonobo ;)
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gRegor` Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah *sunglasses*
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cuibonobo *deal-with-it.gif*
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kylewm B :)
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kylewm B :)
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kylewm B:)
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kylewm B)
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cuibonobo LOL
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kylewm doh!
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gRegor` Hahaha
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cuibonobo kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 61 karma
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KartikPrabhu kylewm++ :D
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Loqi kylewm has 62 karma
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kylewm tee hee
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kylewm cuibonobo educates everyone about REST and I get the karma
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kylewm sounds right
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gRegor` cuibonobo++
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Loqi cuibonobo has 11 karma
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo++
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Loqi cuibonobo has 12 karma
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cuibonobo hah! shucks you guys :)
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cuibonobo i just like to get tantek riled up ;)
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kylewm speaking of, cuibonobo you should add yourself to /Python
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cuibonobo ah. sure thing.
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KartikPrabhu moar python
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aaronpk_ so... "Drank <data class="p-quantity" value="1">a</data> <span class="p-drink">coffee</span>"?
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shaners aaronpk_ I think p-drink is too specific
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aaronpk_ p-consume?
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KartikPrabhu we should use RDF with type=drink
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Loqi fo sho
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shaners it should be a noun, right?
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KartikPrabhu shaners: yeah agreed
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dlyke wouldn't you need "p-units p-drink", to specify that "coffee" is both the substance and the quantity?
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jenmontes.com edited /Python (+235) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Added myself to indieweb examples" (view diff)
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dlyke (Albeit a poorly specified one, that could be 8 to 20 oz)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Python (+21) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ moved Jen earlier in order" (view diff)
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tantek cuibonobo++ for being a patient teacher
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Loqi cuibonobo has 13 karma
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aaronpk_ I hate this part of publishing new kinds of data. Whatever decision I make now is going to stick around for a long long time because it gets coded into things all over the place.
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tantek aaronpk - so use *-x-* or *-aaronpk-*
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aaronpk_ but then i'm gonna have to change it later!
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tantek aaronpk - better *you* change it later than it "stick around for a long long time because it gets coded into things all over the place"
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KartikPrabhu is having the same problem with changing u-photo to u-featured
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aaronpk_ i meant all over the place being my server and my wrist
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tantek aaronpk - especially with anything new. ESPECIALLY with something with no documented research.
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tantek ahem
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#VENDOR_EXTENSIONS
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tantek see for example examples of p-good-preptime vs p-x-prep-time (difference deliberate)
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tantek aaronpk - I strongly suggest you start http://microformats.org/wiki/food per http://microformats.org/wiki/process
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gRegor` u-featured for photo? hm
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tantek if you just want to make up names and change things as you go along *without* first doing/documenting research, then h-aaronpk-* and p-aaronpk-* go for it. implementation experiments are also useful (independent of research)
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dlyke gregor` <img src=".*?
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aaronpk_ I think I'm gonna just go with this as an implementation experiment
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dlyke gregor`: Ugh, trying again... <img src=".*?\.jpg"> says "photo", u-featured says "this is a featured image", or this is a good image to use to represent the content on this page, or some other semantic meaning.
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gRegor` Just wondering about the use of "featured"
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gRegor` Seems broad. Featured image? Featured product?
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tantek proposal in http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry##u-featured - read that first
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dlyke Apparently it's drawn from WordPress's "Featured Image" language. http://indiewebcamp.com/link-preview
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gRegor` But Kartik is gone at the moment. I'll pick his brain about it
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tantek aaronpk for microformats/wiki/food-examples I give you this starting seed citation: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=from%3Aadactio%20toast&src=typd
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rascul tantek i added my sister http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=14062&oldid=12734&rcid=14105
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gRegor` Interesting
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tantek rascul++ for excellent recruiting!
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Loqi rascul has 22 karma
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tantek waits for aaronpk to see the photos in that twitter search and see if he thought of how "consumed" posts should have photos or not and how.
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aaronpk_ tantek: that's awesome
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tantek and this is why we research and document examples
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aaronpk_ photos would be sweet, but I am not likely to post photos for a while
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aaronpk_ right now I have 14 months of food data in backlog that I am going to publish
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tantek hypothesizes that aaronpk has published "consumed" posts with "photos" on instagram.com/aaronpk in the past
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tantek aaronpk, that sounds nuts.
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aaronpk_ it is, in fact
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aaronpk_ is all about the complete data sets
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evan I believe shane posted about Vektra earlier
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evan I thought I'd pop in and answer any questions y'all have
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tantek welcome evan!
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tantek what's your personal site?
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evan hello t!
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evan I suppose it's blog.fallingsnow.net
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evan though it's a sad personal site.
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tantek welcome to the club :)
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evan I should make a personal site that just pulls down my twitter feed and uses a markov generator on each tweet to create a post
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Loqi definitely
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rascul what is pesos?
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Loqi PESOS is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish Elsewhere, Syndicate (to your) Own Site http://indiewebcamp.com/pesos
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evan well, i'll just idle a bit
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evan if y'all have any vektra related questions
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tantek evan - site looks pretty clean actually. interesting infinite scroll implementation.
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tantek plenty of other WordPress folks here too
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tantek is that "Twitter Updates" thing a plugin? or are you able to change the markup? or both?
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GWG Did someone say WordPress?
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GWG tantek: What are your thoughts on infinite scroll vs pagination?
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tantek what is infinite scroll?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "infinite scroll" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=infinite+scroll
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tantek what is pagination?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pagination" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pagination
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@wchrisjohnson RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/517825282707701760)
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rascul not that again
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tantek nice to see the lack of appreciation of reverse psychology by the retweeters, or perhaps they mean to send people here