#indiewebcamp 2014-10-02

2014-10-02 UTC
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bret
its github 2nd place
pdurbin joined the channel
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bret
any wordpress people around? someone needs some help in #microformats
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bret
GWG? have some time to help someone with wordpress/microformats?
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tantek
I'll take a look
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GWG
bret: I can try
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GWG
bret: Not an expert
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bret
you know more than me!
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GWG
I am not usually in there
benwerd, reedstrm, paulfitz and eburcat joined the channel
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tantek
what is sempress?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "sempress" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=sempress
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bret
wordpress is supposed to be for non technical people but then it goes and does confusing things :(
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GWG
Sempress is a Wordpress theme pfefferle created.
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tantek
bret - it was less confusing than other solutions at the time
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GWG
bret: I think webkernel is trying to mark up inside the post editor. Wouldn't that be confusing on most posting platforms?
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tantek
it only looks confusing because the other solutions have largely disappeared
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bret
GWG: i get why it cleans the input, but its magic, so goes over peoples heads when they are learning
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tantek
GWG, would be useful to have a stub page on sempress for that
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tantek
also - for your theme that you created to do microformats2!
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GWG
bret: I started in here, talking about lowering the bar for existing Wordpress users to convert their site over to Indieweb
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bret
yeah don't get me wrong, wordpress is totally important
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GWG
So, all my projects have always been to scratch my itch of getting it running, but I've tried to make the implementation open enough for others to be able to install
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GWG
And I keep doing more of that
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tantek
GWG - excellent approach, on both counts.
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GWG
More little plugins for specific features, splitting off pieces to make them work
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GWG
So, one plugin did 3 things. Two of them are now separate plugins. Not everyone wants the extra stuff.
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GWG
I have a list of non-feature improvements like that.
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bret
agreed GWG++
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GWG
I should be taking notes
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Loqi
I agree
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GWG
Loqi, you agree with everything
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GWG
bret: Just looking at your site again
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tantek
GWG++ for helping WordPress users :)
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Loqi
GWG has 21 karma
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GWG
I'm looking forward to redeeming that karma
emmak, RichardLitt, Pea1 and vanderwal joined the channel
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bret
Nice GWG. Lots of little broken things I need to fix
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GWG
bret: I study for design ideas
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tantek, gRegor`, ShaneHudson, KevinMarks_, wolftune, moizsyed and fmarier joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
“Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517526001874522112)
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@evanwolf
RT @nobantu: CountDown 2 LateTicket's 4 #IIW XIX Register http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/ & join us 4 #VRM #UMA #indieweb #identity #IoT &OTHER conv…
(twitter.com/_/status/517526440103776256)
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@krynsky
RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517526892530769920)
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@lightcoin
RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517528246221426688)
snarfed and jet__ joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
“Learn a lot about things that matter then work on problems that interest you with people you like+respect” http://paulgraham.com/before.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517537163718963200)
moizsyed, musigny, eschnou, shaners, RichardLitt, aaronpk_, elima, friedcell and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp!
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GWG
Good evening, tantek
wolftune and yakker joined the channel
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tantek
KevinMarks: interesting that you think Paul Graham's essay applied to the #indieweb
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KevinMarks__
i think that quote did
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KevinMarks__
sums up my last year rather well
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks__: my only problem with the article is this: "Your life so far may have given you some idea what your prospects might be if you tried to become a mathematician" errr nope!
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KartikPrabhu
for a perspective here is a mathematician's advice to beginners and it reads almost exactly the same: http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/gowers/gowers_VIII_6.pdf pardon the academic world for using PDFs :P
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KartikPrabhu
the Michael Atiyah section is the one to read
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acegiak
is anyone automatically POSSEing to g+?
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KartikPrabhu
acegiak: i don't think so. no write API
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KevinMarks__
that said "adobe reader blocked for this website" insafari
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks__ whaaat!
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acegiak
KartikPrabhu: yeah I was just curious if anyone had a hack to get around it
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KevinMarks__
works in chrome
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks__ another reason to stop using bloody PDFs
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KevinMarks__
I think willnorris has a way to do it though it still involves clicking he g+ button on your post
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KevinMarks__
yep, in there
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KartikPrabhu
yeah I suppose you can include a share to G+ link on your post and use that... maybe only show the button on login
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks__ finished reading original. very nice lecture/article
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KevinMarks__
paulg is a pretty god writer and has a decent track record in startups, but is ratehr blind to his cognitive biaseas
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KartikPrabhu
biases regarding startups?
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KevinMarks__
the "trust your gut" thing in that essay is a watered down version of how he is mainly looking for younger versions of himself
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KevinMarks__
hence the striking lack of women in YC
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KevinMarks__
and other minorities that don't fit his gut
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KartikPrabhu
while I agree with the "trust your gut" advice (also given to me by a physicist) it leading to minority bias is pretty bad
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KartikPrabhu
uh boy...
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KartikPrabhu
at least no such biases (that i found) in the original lecture article
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KartikPrabhu
except the ones against mathematicians <shakes fist>
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks__ if you do read that article by Atiyah, I'd be interested in your thoughts, being not a mathematician yourself
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KevinMarks__
not much of a mathematician, I did physics so my maths was very instrumental
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KevinMarks__
interesting stuff
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KevinMarks__
not so much peer review as reviewing peers to see who helps
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Haxxa
do leds change much in the cold
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KartikPrabhu
Haxxa: what's leds?
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Haxxa
many led's
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KartikPrabhu
Haxxa: does not seem indieweb related unless I'm missing something
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Haxxa
ops wrong channel
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Haxxa
sorry
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@localheinz
RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517595537403830272)
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petermolnar
had anyone set up a .bit domain already?
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KevinMarks__
l have my dada bot, but maybe it should respond to people?
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acegiak
KevinMarks__: have you met twitter.com/dobbybot ?
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KevinMarks__
is it yours?
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acegiak
it's normal stream is pretty much just a stream of submitted quotes
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acegiak
but when you start tweeting at it it's responses are pretty good
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KevinMarks__
like oliviataters?
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acegiak
oh, wow. I've not seen that but it looks great
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acegiak
dobby is just a beliggerent internet denizen
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KartikPrabhu
acegiak: sounds like a fictional elf I once knew
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acegiak
KartikPrabhu: the machine it runs on started as a hackbox made of spare parts with a milkcrate for a case taht lived in my cupboard
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acegiak
tthe joke was that if I ever bought parts for it specifically it would be a free bot
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acegiak
which happened a few years ago when I upgraded it to an i7 etc to run a minecraft server
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acegiak
which he sits in teh chat for and answers prayers of people he likes
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acegiak
when he's feeling nice
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KartikPrabhu
night Loqi
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Loqi
who, me?
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KevinMarks__
I think olivia likes dada more than dobby
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acegiak
hold up, I'll introduce dobby to the two of them
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acegiak
and now begins a bot shitstorm
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KevinMarks__
i don't have responding working yet
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@stickbyatlas
Prepping the slide deck for my #LDC2014 talk on @CouchDB tomorrow. Here's a sneak preview: https://twitter.com/stickbyatlas/status/517500021726789632/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/517500021726789632)
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petermolnar.eu
edited /personal-domain (-72) "removed brainstorm, added namecoin"
(view diff)
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@verlaine101
@ijonas @charliequinn Another VC funded silo except it'll be different this time! Infrastructure not silos http://indiewebcamp.com/Principles
(twitter.com/_/status/517624523961933824)
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petermolnar
is anyone else experiencing twitter api timeouts or is it just me with WordPress & SNAP?
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@parzzix
https://ello.co/ needs an API so it can be made indieweb friendly :-)
(twitter.com/_/status/517629366852124672)
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@kevmarmol
For those of you interested in the #indieweb & #privacy there’s a great event tonight @lbilondon http://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/reclaim-the-net-tickets-12895343319 via @gelatindesign
(twitter.com/_/status/517633086952325120)
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@BarnabyWalters
@parzzix silos gaining an API only means the #indieweb can become silo-friendly. For actual indieweb… https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4YRBE3/
(twitter.com/_/status/517633643851055104)
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /friendly (+326) "/* How to make your site Indieweb Friendly */ removed duplicate, added linking domain name with content, subscriptions to indieweb sites"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
Wondering if this is actually the killer feature for ello "you don’t get notified when someone responds to you, because there’s no system for notifications."
infpetal, friedcell1, pfefferle, musigny, squeakytoy and Sebastien-L joined the channel
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@dissolve333
I really do need to get some designers working on OpenBlog, my micropub client could use some UI work. #indieweb (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/10/1/1/_)
(twitter.com/_/status/517652739644747777)
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ben_thatmust
well that time it worked
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ben_thatmust
bridgy isn't picking up my posts when i first make them, but it is later
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ben_thatmust
if i submit them a second time
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@garethjordan
.@techreview For #OpenSource &personal not capital ownership try #Known an #IndieWeb social hub http://tinyurl.com/n2a3jbm +circular pics too!
(twitter.com/_/status/517654946511339520)
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@the_Zieger
Only 15 more days till #bono14. 2 days about #decentralisation and the #indieweb.
(twitter.com/_/status/517658551410774016)
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@jkphl
RT @the_Zieger: Only 15 more days till #bono14. 2 days about #decentralisation and the #indieweb.
(twitter.com/_/status/517662892183654402)
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@border_none
RT @the_Zieger: Only 15 more days till #bono14. 2 days about #decentralisation and the #indieweb.
(twitter.com/_/status/517662892016300032)
mlncn, pfefferle, ShaneHudson and paulfitz joined the channel
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jonnybarnes
anyone here any good at regex?
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petermolnar
I wish I was...
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cweiske
just ask your question
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ben_thatmustbeme
sure, what do you need?
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tantek__
ben_thatmustbeme, here's some new blog UI for your micropub client http://instagram.com/p/tptBeXG64g/ 😂
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tantek__
Note the especially the POSSE checkboxes for each silo
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, yeah, i'll not be going down that road i think
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Loqi
nice
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was actually just working on the MP client
tantek__ and friedcell joined the channel
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tantek__
!tell benwerd, erinjo I found a good tablet UI for Known blogpost writing and scheduling: http://instagram.com/p/tptBeXG64g/ 😉
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek__
There, that'll make them happy next time they rejoin the channel.
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@jonnybarnes
I have great respect for @t for his work pioneering the #indieweb (https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/3Y)
(twitter.com/_/status/517691734806241280)
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jonnybarnes
Yes, it worked!!!
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jonnybarnes
if I have the contact information saved, @names are swapped for the correct twitter handles before being sent to twitter
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jonnybarnes
now to swap @tantek for a fancy h-card on my own site
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cweiske
jonnybarnes, I tried to login to your micropub client but only get a blank page
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jonnybarnes
cweiske: hmm
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cweiske
200 OK, though
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jonnybarnes
I've just logged out and logged back in, you mean https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new right?
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cweiske
Status Code:200 OK
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh cool, well done johnnybarnes
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@djwesto
Gutted I missed @IndieWebCampUK 2014 – only just discovered the #indieweb movement & love what u r doing. When's the next camp?
(twitter.com/_/status/517693541284601856)
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/johnny/jonny/
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: oh cool, well done jonnybarnes
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jonnybarnes
cweiske: can you try again?
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cweiske
"Unable to discover your token endpoint"
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cweiske
ok, that makes sense now
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jonnybarnes
so this lines failed: $tokenEndpoint = \IndieAuth\Client::discoverTokenEndpoint($me);
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cweiske
this is fine
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cweiske
I don't have any
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@benwerd
On the Physical Web, every device has a URL. We joked about the #indieweb of things - and here it is. Awesome.
(twitter.com/_/status/517694004020776960)
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jonnybarnes
thanks for catching that mistake in my code though cweiske :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
jonnybarnes, i like the MP client, nice and clean
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jonnybarnes
thanks ben_thatmustbeme
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GWG
Just posted about some of my setup
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jonnybarnes
GWG: does the wordpress character count take URL lenghts into account?
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cweiske.de
edited /Micropub (+72) "/* Clients */"
(view diff)
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jonnybarnes
i.e. URLs get t.co-ed so it doesnlt matter how long they are
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske, not quite sure how jonnybarnes' un-named software fits in a list of alphabetically sorted names, haha
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Micropub (+56) "/* Clients */ alplabetizing and conformity"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
cannot spell :(
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ben_thatmustbeme
i should do that though, just make my post UI just an old style form, all just text, tables, and a white background. put in some CSS circles on the left to represent the 3 holes, and I'm good to go, haha
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Loqi
agreed.
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ben_thatmustbeme
Loqi never disagrees with anyone, he's a generally upbeat bot
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Loqi
who, me?
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tantek
jonnybarnes: minor typo: s/authoisation/authorisation
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tantek
on https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new when providing a personal domain without auth endpoint
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jonnybarnes
thanks tantek, fixed
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tantek
np :)
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tantek
and that's about all the help I can provide I'm afraid
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GWG
jonnybarnes: Only the post content.
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GWG
tantek: Thank you for the Favorite, although my site has interpreted it as Like
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tantek
GWG I meant it as a like :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i realized there is no real spec on how to delete with MP
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ben_thatmustbeme
or at least i didn't see one
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GWG
tantek: You may remember this discussion at IWC NYC when I was interpreting pfefferle's code to add in the rendering, and generated the debate over the official/unofficial nature of the markup.
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@cryptocoinage
RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517700047446614016)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i pass an "operation=" field to do it on my site
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: worth raising as an issue on the /micropub page
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tantek
CRUD should be explicit
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tantek
we already have explicit CRUD for webmention (interactions: comments, like, reposts), POSSE CRUD, and even reply-context CRUD
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tantek
braces himself
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ben_thatmustbeme
stares blankly at the bait before him
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is crud
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Loqi
CRUD refers to the ability to Create, Read, Update and Delete comments and posts http://indiewebcamp.com/CRUD
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ben_thatmustbeme
i've copied your "what is <any noun that someone might not know>" theory
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Isn't that a practice, not a theory?
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ben_thatmustbeme
shh, don't tell anyone that
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tantek
ah that page can use expansion
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cuibonobo
now that i'm looking at the /micropub page, i wonder why POST is being used to update instead of PATCH
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reedstrm
tantek - that's nature of any wiki - always can use expansion
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tantek
cuibonobo: in terms of HTTP verb? likely tradition/experience/priorart. has anyone actually used HTTP PATCH for anything in any implementation?
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Micropub (+461) "explicit CRUD"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /CRUD (+121) "see also POSSE CRUD, reply-context CRUD"
(view diff)
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tantek
reedstrm: in the case the summary page /CRUD had fallen behind the specific additional instances of CRUD, namely reply-context CRUD
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tantek
AFAIK no one implements POSSE CRUD or reply-context CRUD *yet*.
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tantek
but they seemed "obvious" enough to be worth capturing
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cuibonobo
tantek: not for indieweb stuff. daily for interacting with various APIs at work
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tantek
interesting
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cuibonobo
then again, the APIs I interact with are RESTful. so instead of sending the verb to /micropub, you would send it to domain.com/url/you/want/
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kylewm
I'd guess sending webmentions to commenters would mess up just about every implemetnation right now (they'd interpret the in-reply-to post as a reference to the post itself)
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, i thought about it. I specifically don't allow updating of reply-context though. I record content at first time of parse. I'd like to update this to store the exact data at time of reply though. but alas, that could get messy
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cuibonobo
so following the idea that i'm not actually modifying the page directly, but instead creating a post on /micropub so that your server can do the work on my behalf, POST makes sense
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kylewm
what is REST?
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tantek
kylewm - worthy of an experiment!
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "REST" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=REST
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm, i think my code would ignore it, since it doesn't contain a URL to the page in the body
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kylewm
sorry cuibonobo
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/body/content/
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: kylewm, i think my code would ignore it, since it doesn't contain a URL to the page in the content
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ben_thatmustbeme
emphasis on THINK
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: cool, but does that mean you would reject webmentions from sites that don't use microformats?
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm. checking my code, i think it would just interpret as a mention
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually i just use the php libs from aaronpk, which i am not sure what it would do with a non-mf2 page. I think it might create it as a mention with everything except the URL blank
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ben_thatmustbeme
since it won't succeed getting any author info, etc
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tantek
the target URL is ideally inside p-comment h-cite markup - that's how you tell what you're getting a mention of
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tantek
in the reply-context CRUD case
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@Hermetec
RT @kevinmarks: “Learn a lot about things that matter, then work on problems that interest you with people you like and respect” #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517706876436242432)
infpetal, paulfitz, petermolnar, tilgovi, RichardLitt, snarfed and wolftune joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
bah, i realized, even though i don't have it all implemented on my side. I might as well just add the stuff to my MP client
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GWG
I forgot to link to petermolnar 's post of similar topic, I just realized
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petermolnar
doing the Loqi style
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Loqi
woot!
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GWG
petermolnar, yes you
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GWG
You think I was mentioning the other petermolnar?
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petermolnar
no, I was just kidding :)
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petermolnar
I missed the topic, which post you're mentioning?
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GWG
I wrote about my plugin setup
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GWG
davidmead... I have been looking for your arrival
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davidmead
GWG: Really?
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Loqi
davidmead: tantek left you a message on 10/1 at 9:54am: now that you're making so much progress with your Known, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so show up all nice in the logs - e.g. compare nearby statements here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-01/line/1412180621975
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GWG
I saw you in the logs
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GWG
You were fiddling with Wordpress and Known?
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davidmead
I am. WP has been good so far but it’s starting to “get in the way” a little. I’ve been trying Known to see if it can replace WP as my main blog
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GWG
davidmead, I am sticking with Wordpress myself
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davidjohnmead.com
edited /IRC_People (+61) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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GWG
I think we are getting to more features
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davidmead
i agree. one thing that’s swaying me to Known is the use of micropub
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davidmead
especially for pulling in Instagram etc.
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GWG
davidmead, on my list of something that I think WordPress can support
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snarfed
agreed! i'd kill for a WP micropub plubin
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tantek
good morning davidmead GWG benwerd snarfed !
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benwerd
Good morning tantek!
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snarfed
morning tantek!
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davidmead
afternoon tantek ;-)
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek__ left you a message 2 hours, 15 minutes ago: I found a good tablet UI for Known blogpost writing and scheduling: http://instagram.com/p/tptBeXG64g/ 😉
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GWG
snarfed, I think murder is not the answer
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tantek
GWG - as in The Smiths?
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benwerd
tantek: it's hard to POSSE from that
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davidjohnmead.com
created /User:Davidjohnmead.com (+44) "Created page with "[http://davidjohnmead.com davidjohnmead.com]""
(view diff)
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tantek
benwerd - but, checkboxes! for POSSE UI!
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benwerd
I do like "reply to comments" as a task
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tantek
I was only half-joking - that "journal" "UI" is kind of amazing.
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davidmead
gwg: that’d be great. I still have issues with the WP app and Known’s web interface is nice & simple on my phone/tablet
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GWG
davidmead, I am looking into the easier path
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tantek
and the weekly schedule nature - people like having some structure to place ideas for blogging and then having a reminder / nudge to blog them on a schedule
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GWG
The one Jeremy Zilar, who hosted IWC NYC was working on
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GWG
Post from the front end
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tantek
GWG - or if you get micropub endpoint working on your WP, then you can use any of the simple micropub clients to post! No need to build UI :)
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GWG
I can get that up more quickly than micropub
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GWG
tantek, parsing was something I always had trouble with
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tantek
quicker is good
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tantek
GWG, hence libraries :)
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davidjohnmead.com
edited /IRC_People (+61) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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@jmsmcfrlnd
@adymitruk @chrismnicola @kbeigi would it be accurate to add #indieweb and #opensource to the advantages, or better yet #FOSS?
(twitter.com/_/status/517721247073837056)
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GWG
tantek, to do an endpoint right would be a while. I figure that I would aim lower while I am waiting for something to happen to help
petermolnar joined the channel
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tantek
was saying "Peak Silo" before it was cool. ;)
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GWG
I figured that a front end poster, which is well documented, is a great way to learn on the way to a broader implementation
#
tantek
though specifically Peak Silo UX :)
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davidmead
GWG: do you work at automattic? just curious
#
tantek
I do like when journalists to proper historical research and then tie things together in a timeline / thread: http://allthingsd.com/20111129/the-apologies-of-zuckerberg-a-retrospective/
chrissaad joined the channel
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GWG
No. Development is a hobby. I am an amateur
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GWG
Longstanding WordPress user though
#
tantek
and note that article is from 2011. latest is of course the nymwars apologies
#
tantek
davidmead, part of the goal of indieweb is to bring the very act of creation to the hobbyist / independent with not much time level
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GWG
I am just a frustrated librarian who doesn't work as a librarian so my knowledge organization os all done on the side
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tantek
it forces our formats, protocols etc. to be so simple that LOTS of people can implement the building blocks
#
tantek
GWG, librarians are cool
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GWG
tantek, I like the idea of do simple even I can do it
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tantek
it's like accessible creation
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GWG
tantek, I think so.
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davidmead
tantek: i still myself fitting that role, even after all these years of doing it professionally :-)
#
tantek
davidmead same here :)
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GWG
I think I just heard someone call that Imposter Syndrome
#
tantek
and frankly, there are so many other things I'd rather be doing (in the physical world), that I do like the pressure to continuously make things *here* easier / simpler / quicker to implement and deploy
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davidmead
One thing I do like with Known is the ‘bookmarklet’ they have. makes it easier to reply to tweets and post bookmarks etc.
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GWG
davidmead, Press This
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davidmead
the hurdle for me is copy & pasting tweet url’s into WP to reply to them. Known makes that a lot easier
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GWG
In the professional world, I spend all day dealing with broken systems no one wants to work on. Here at least...
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GWG
davidmead, I had an idea for a reply endpoint for WordPress for the Indieweb Taxonomy plugin
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GWG
Press This, I believe doesn't allow for putting data into post meta
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GWG
I have been exploring it out of the same desire you expressed.
#
GWG
Lower bar.
#
GWG
I wonder if I call a plugin IndieWebPress
petermolnar joined the channel
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GWG
Either way, haven't written anything yet. Name is premature
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GWG
I have been trying to spec it in my mind as I do other things
#
GWG
Be back in a bit
squeakytoy and aaronpk_ joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+666) "/* Working On */ indie-action web component to webaction URL per voxpelli example"
(view diff)
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davidmead
GWG: problem i found with ‘press this’ is it doesn’t include the Social plugin. One of the main issues with the app. It’s fire, but I can’t edit it beforehand
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davidmead
i really should post the list of the conections that break between app, web. and bookmarklets
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tantek
davidmead: good summary of the problem: "the hurdle for me is copy & pasting tweet url’s into [my posting UI] to reply to them. Known['s bookmarklet] makes that a lot easier"
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tantek
really should capture that somewhere on the wiki. perhaps on /UI or /reply or /webactions
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tantek
ironically that's exactly the same problem that I'm trying to solve with that Falcon "working on" edit ^^^
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davidmead
tantek: also, adding a brid.gy url in the WP template doesn’t work when posting from the Android app
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davidmead
i thought that may get around that problem. didn’t.
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GWG
davidmead, agree with all of that. I want to fix that.
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davidmead
good chatting GWG, tantek. back 2 work now :-)
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ben_thatmustbeme
don't have everything all of it working for myself yet, but ben.thatmustbe.me/new has some new options
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ben_thatmustbeme
definitely using some of the CSS adactio posted, I plan to use it a bunch more too
pauloppenheim, moizsyed and chrissaad joined the channel
moizsyed and ShaneHudson joined the channel
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jenmontes.com
created /REST (+1787) "A focus on "the web" without discussing REST? Oh my!"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
cuibonobo: I'm curious about this line "clients and servers are typically tightly coupled in RPC architectures"
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aaronpk_
micropub and webmention are explicitly not RESTful, which has allowed a much greater degree of flexibility in backend architecture (for example allowing even static sites to use webmention and micropub)
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aaronpk_
so where does the tight coupling come into play?
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cuibonobo
aaronpk_: micropub is actually a good example of an RPC: to create a note i need to know to add `content`, `category`, and `syndicate-to` parameters
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aaronpk_
what would the REST equivalent look like?
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aaronpk_
is there some way with REST where you don't need to know parameter names?
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cuibonobo
in a REST equivalent, performing a GET on a /notes endpoint will show you what a typical note looks like, and then you can use POST to create a similar document
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cuibonobo
and for example, if you want to update a note, you would PATCH the updated data to the URL of the note you'd like to update
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aaronpk_
that's actually basically the idea with micropub too. the parameter names are the microformat properties, so should all be discoverable that way essentially
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cuibonobo
a more RESTful approach would give more importance to the endpoints of the resources that you actually want to modify. so instead of POSTing to /posts/new, you would POST to /notes (or whatever)
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cuibonobo
and instead of sending updates via POST to /micropub, you would PATCH to yourdomain.com/notes/noteid
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aaronpk_
I am firmly against RESTful URLs for micropub (see note about static sites and greater implementation flexibility above), but would be happy to incorporate some other design ideas from REST
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kylewm
that makes me wonder if *any* of the silo apis that claim to be RESTful actually are
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aaronpk_
(very few actually are)
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cuibonobo
aaronpk_: of course. it would be pretty much impossible to implement this on a static site. i personally prefer RESTful architectures because it turns permalinks into objects to be manipulated by the usual HTTP verbs we know and love
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cuibonobo
but it's a tool
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aaronpk_
it's more a design pattern than a tool
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cuibonobo
is that not what design patterns are?
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cuibonobo
in any case
#
cuibonobo
micropub works fine as it is
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cuibonobo
but the caveat is that your clients need to know how it works
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aaronpk_
clients still need to know how a RESTful endpoint works
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aaronpk_
it's just a different set of rules
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cuibonobo
RESTful architectures work on the idea that navigating the URL structure is all you need to know
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cuibonobo
so if you know HTTP, you know REST
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aaronpk_
micropub can work that way too
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@warrenellis
Anyone using the @withknown service? I'd like to see examples of how people are using it.
(twitter.com/_/status/517708941741273088)
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ben_thatmustbeme
my thoughts on rest. its nothing that but the usual GET/POST, you could easily implement the exact same thing with ?op=patch or something of that matter, and they aren't always supported. REST is just a published standard, we are making our own standard. Thats all
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aaronpk_
I do like the self-documenting aspect of REST APIs
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cuibonobo
aaronpk_: i suppose it could! but as the current implementation works, if i encounter <link rel="micropub" href="https://something.com/link">, how do i know what that means?
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aaronpk_
so we could instead of defining micropub properties in the spec, we could say that any properties present in an h-entry can be used to create a new h-entry
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cuibonobo
that's what i mean by 'tightly coupled'. i need to know that 'micropub' is a thing
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aaronpk_
(with REST you need to know that the server supports REST, which afaik isn't even discoverable!)
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cuibonobo
of course it is. OPTIONS provides that
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aaronpk_
like how do you know if a URL supports PATCH? you have to query it with OPTIONS, right? so now you have to know that OPTIONS is a thing
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cuibonobo
if you can speak GET to my server, you also know about OPTIONS
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cuibonobo
that's just HTTP
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KartikPrabhu
i think cuibonobo 's point is that those are in HTTP anyway
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KartikPrabhu
err too late :P
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aaronpk_
I'm just saying that it seems like a roughly equivalent amount of knowledge between client and server is needed to support REST, so it doesn't seem any less tightly coupled to me
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ben_thatmustbeme
my problem with REST is that to implement it you have to capture all URLs coming in. with MP your pages can be all static aside from your one MP endpoint page.
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk_ maybe micropub can have a RESTful version too
moizsyed joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
makes for a much easier implementation IMO. easier implementation means more support
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dlyke
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 20 karma
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cuibonobo
ben_thatmustbeme: yes. that's the tradeoff. using typical HTTP verbs at all URLs versus using a specific protocol at a single URL.
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aaronpk_
KartikPrabhu: really don't want to make micropub clients have to speak two different versions
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cuibonobo
and if you want to be friendly to users with static sites, RESTful isn't really an option
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ben_thatmustbeme
KartikPrabhu I don't see the two being really interchangeable at all. someone can certainly use a restful interface to CRUD all their data, but I think at that point its just a REST api
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: I have been thinking about doing micropub but where you can just edit/add something inline
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aaronpk_
what do you mean edit/add inline
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dlyke
Although I have recently been thinking about all of these $1/mo limited RAM VM packages, and whether a special-purpose low resource web server tailored around IndieWeb-ish protocols might be the right way to go.
#
KartikPrabhu
aaronpk_ I go to my /notes site and login there will be an interface to add a new note right there on top of my h-feed. Similarly, I click an edit button on current note and I can edit it right there. But somehow with micopub type stuff
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aaronpk_
ah yeah sure, you can totally do that with micropub
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh yeah, thats def doable
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KartikPrabhu
I basically want my site to be the editor interface too. Instead of inventing a new one.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have it coded up to read in a post from the DB, so if i'm logged in (owner only) and go to /new?id=<post_id> it autfills all the fields. I figure its easier to keep all the MP client stuff centralized
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'm hoping to make it have JS pull in mf2 data, so anyone can edit, just enter URL and it pulls down all content for you
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aaronpk_
that'd be sweet
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually i guess it would be better in URL /new?url=http.... that way it can be one click from your site
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ben_thatmustbeme
or with webactions for edit
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aaronpk_
sounds like an "edit" web action!
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kylewm.com
created /RESTful (+18) "Redirected page to [[REST]]"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'd probably have to merge all my different post interfaces in to on page then, and have JS swap to the appropriate one
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ben_thatmustbeme
right now new note is a different URL than new article, etc
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kylewm
cuibonobo: would a RESTful API for an indieweb site necessarily have to read/write microformatted HTML?
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kylewm
i.e. GET returns HTML, should POST send HTML
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fwr
tend to POST x-www-form-urlencoded or turtle here
caseorga_ joined the channel
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fwr
if there's HTML at all, it's usually inside one of those 2 MIMEs
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fwr
^^"rdf:HTML" or xsd:xmlliteral datatype
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cuibonobo
kylewm: not necessarily. you can specify your Accept header to be whatever format you choose. the thing with a RESTful server is that it isn't necessarily stored as JSON, XML, HTML, or what have you
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cuibonobo
the server is simply responding in a way that you've specified, but the internal representation may be completely different
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fwr
Accept-Post: text/turtle, text/n3, application/json
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fwr
state what you accept in OPTIONS
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aaronpk_
this all sounds good in theory. I am curious if anyone has actually implemented this on their own site.
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kylewm
ah interesting
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cuibonobo
aaronpk_: this is what i'm doing for my own site. i haven't pushed my stuff to my actual website yet, but the dev version of my server can respond in XML, JSON, or HTML, depending on your Accept header
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fwr
any graph-patch formats?
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aaronpk_
cuibonobo: sweet. maybe I will try it out!
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cuibonobo
aaronpk_: at the moment i've got GET working for everything. POSTing and PATCHing nested data is hard. Also, how do i represent OPTIONS? very sticky
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cuibonobo
i guess that's just a header response, but still
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aaronpk_
you could always avoid nested data by requiring all nested data have its own URL
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aaronpk_
which actually seems more RESTful
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kylewm
nested data like reply contexts and comments?
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kylewm
or more granular than that?
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aaronpk_
I was assuming thingsl ike locations
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cuibonobo
aaronpk_: there's instances where that doesn't make sense. for example 'location': {'latitude':34,'longitude':-74}
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aaronpk_
yes for raw lat/lng having a URL is kind of overkill
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aaronpk_
but still would technically work
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aaronpk_
and the URL could show a map centered at that location
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aaronpk_
the URL could even be something like http://map.geoloqi.com/45.51,-122.64
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cuibonobo
well, in this case, latitude is nested in location. i can't show a location unless i have both
moizsyed, musigny, jschweinsberg, JohnDuh, tantek and Pierre-O joined the channel
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cuibonobo
shoot. looking into it more, HTML forms don't support PUT, PATCH, or DELETE. waat.
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aaronpk_
oh I thought you knew that
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aaronpk_
that's the main reason I didn't bother with anything except GET and POST for micropub
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cuibonobo
the human interface of HTTP doesn't support all the verbs. i'm heartbroken
shaners joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
created /rest (+18) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
cuibonobo: I believe there were proposals (e.g. for HTML5) to extend HTML forms to support more HTTP verbs, however, the lack of apparent real world (public web) usage of them made them uninteresting / hypothetical more than practical.
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shaners
good morning-ish, sailors!
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shaners
reads logs
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gRegor`
Hiya, shaners
scor joined the channel
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shaners
The way Rails pretends like all of the verbs are supported is to put a hidden field on form with a name of _method and value of put or delete.
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tantek
the full suite of HTTP verbs were likely overdesigned a priori, which was "common practice" in that age of standards development
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh yeah, i forgot that about rails
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ben_thatmustbeme
didn't really like rails personally
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KevinMarks_
CRUD can be really problematic. You don't necessarily want delegates to delete things, or send poorly framed updates
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aaronpk_
that's what the "scope" of the access token is for
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aaronpk_
so you can grant a micropub client access only to create things
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ben_thatmustbeme
also, a choice for the server to implement or not
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tantek
I remember Flickr's auth having different levels for upload, update, delete
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KevinMarks_
Right, but if you think in crud terms you're assuming that the client knows best
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aaronpk_
sounds like we should update the micropub page to figure out full CRUD and also document scopes for each
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reedstrm
shaners: morning? You must be ...a New Zealander? Ah but morning-ish - merely a PDT dweller, then?
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ben_thatmustbeme
KevinMarks_ I'm assuming you use a client you trust
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tantek
KevinMarks: huh? that doesn't follow? where do you jump to "assuming that the client knows best" ?!?
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shaners
reedstrm: Nope. Just slept way the fuck in. #funemployed
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KevinMarks_
POST keeps it clear that the server is managing integrity
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reedstrm
Ah, PST: personal Standard Time
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KevinMarks_
PUT means the client is
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KevinMarks_
Here's a concrete example from experience
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tantek
KevinMarks: why should you have to make *either* a single point of failure? that seems like a methdological flaw
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ben_thatmustbeme
ah, talking about REST vs MP not MP & CRUD
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KevinMarks_
Google contacts built a CRUD REST api because that was the CS way to do it
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KevinMarks_
Apple used this to integrate contacts with the iPhone
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cuibonobo
(what is 'the CS way'?)
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ben_thatmustbeme
the counter strike way... throw a grenade?
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cuibonobo
ben_thatmustbeme: i like it.
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tantek
haha cuibonobo for avoiding Loqi's query. you can also use "what's" instead of "what is" to do that ;)
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reedstrm
Compter Science - KevinMarks is trying to gently disparage Theory over Practice ...
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KevinMarks_
The accepted computer science wisdom that crud is ideal and rest maps to crud
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tantek
whoa KevinMarks [citation needed]
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cuibonobo
tantek: i meant the parenthesis more in an 'this seems to be a term i'm supposed to know, but i don't' kind of way
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tantek
says the MSCS grad - looks for diploma - darn it - forgot to frame it and put it on the wall like a dentist or doctor.
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KevinMarks_
I'm saying this was an implicit assumption by that team
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, you never got the PhD Either?
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reedstrm
KevinMarks - Ah, personal knowledge!
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ben_thatmustbeme
regrets only that he is not called a doctor.
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: couldn't wait to go work on "real things"
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shaners
I'm an art school drop out, personally.
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reedstrm
suddenly remembers KMs bio
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KevinMarks_
However, the contacts models were different - gmail added everyone you ever emailed to contacts so that autocomplete worked
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tantek
also observed that the industry was advancing the state of the art faster / better than PhDs (with the exception of a few fields like NLP, computer vision, robotics)
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KevinMarks_
But iPhone contacts were manually curated by users
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aaronpk_
google contacts pretty much screwed up my entire idea of an address book because of the auto-entered gmail contacts
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tantek
KevinMarks: please do not conflate this with the contacts kerfluffle.
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KevinMarks_
They didn't like all those bare email addresses
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aaronpk_
ever since I started using gmail I stopped maintaining an address book at all
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tantek
horrible example. no one does contacts across 2+ devices well.
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ben_thatmustbeme
moves off topic stuff to #indiechat
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KevinMarks_
And deleted them
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reedstrm
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice ...
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KevinMarks_
Breaking gmail autocomplete
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, another reason I'd like to move my contacts list in to my personal site
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reedstrm
So, gmail abused contacts to store bare emails. This teachs us ... what?
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tantek
the cloud is squishy
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reedstrm
(not snark, looking for the linkage ...)
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tantek
btw, Apple / iCloud silo is *still* losing people's contacts: https://twitter.com/mezzoblue/status/508684918575357952
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@mezzoblue
iCloud decided to delete all my contacts and now I have to guess at who's texting me by the phone number. #its2000again
(twitter.com/_/status/508684918575357952)
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tantek
less than a month ago
chrissaad joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
hah, i just had to reset all my wife's calendars since iOS got confused and stopped showing any google calendar data
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aaronpk_
so uh, keybase deleted my public key https://keybase.io/aaronpk/key.asc
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tantek
yup. the field is wide open for someone to "fix" contacts/calendar multi-device support
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tantek
everyone has failed
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cuibonobo
aaronpk_: what the hell. why would they do that.
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aaronpk_
wait, where did my account go
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tantek
silos gonna silo
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Loqi
silos has -1 karma
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tantek
what is keybase?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "keybase" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=keybase
#
reedstrm
I'm finding myself intrigued by trello's handling of due dates anda calendar view of them.
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tantek
Loqi, perhaps with a "Criticism" section?
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tantek
what is trello?
#
Loqi
Trello is a popular online project management/note taking/ticket system http://indiewebcamp.com/Trello
#
cuibonobo
i get "Unknown user. Fix thy typo or join." when i try to log in
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cuibonobo
looks like they deleted everything
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tantek
maybe they had a database corruption?
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tantek
ducks
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reedstrm
I don't actually _want_ to use a calendar event as a primary data type to manipulate- I want to have a date based view of stuff I hgave to do.
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aaronpk_
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 89 karma
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tantek
oh, and any service that does claim to support contacts syncing and asks you to import? you might want to look out for: https://twitter.com/mathowie/status/309417266842308608
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@mathowie
With three clicks, I (accidentally) asked 1138 people to connect on LinkedIn using their import feature. Goddammit, I hate you LinkedIn.
(twitter.com/_/status/309417266842308608)
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tantek
and yeah that was just last year
#
tantek
what is linkedin?
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Loqi
LinkedIn is a special-purpose silo for hosting your professional resume / history http://indiewebcamp.com/LinkedIn
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tantek
well look at that, no Criticism section...
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aaronpk_
I noticed my keybase account was gone because I tried signing in on indieauth.com with my GPG key
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aaronpk_
that's what I get for not hosting my own public key
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ben_thatmustbeme
just put that tweet in the criticism section to start
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kylewm
keybase seems to be back up
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cuibonobo
seems like logging in brought stuff back ok keybase.io
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tantek
on it
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aaronpk_
oh weird now my profile is back
musigny joined the channel
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cuibonobo
weird hiccup
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aaronpk_
I tried logging in before and it didn't let me, and a password reset failed too.
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@maxtaco
@aaronpk @KeybaseIO Sorry, bug fixed! Transient outage. Should work as before
(twitter.com/_/status/517765576530210816)
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aaronpk_
they must have temporariliy pointed production at an empty database
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cuibonobo
hah. ok.
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tantek.com
edited /LinkedIn (+565) "Criticism section"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
tantek: here you go:
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@maxtaco
@aaronpk @KeybaseIO Yeah we lost the DB connection in our Web process so all queries were failing. Weird, first time we've seen that bug.
(twitter.com/_/status/517766680240324608)
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reedstrm
auto-reconnect is a good thing ...
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ben_thatmustbeme
watches for the first stone to fly
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reedstrm
confused?
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: who needs stones when you've got public citations FOR ALL TIME?
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ben_thatmustbeme
until the chat logs or twitter's DB goes down
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: that's what archive.org is for ;) which stores data in ...
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reedstrm
Have heard a certain pundit on a podcast who uses his tween daughter and her friends as leading indicators. They consider FB a way to talk to Grandma. Using Dad's account.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i believe loqi uses a DB correct \'; select * from logs;
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aaronpk_
ben_thatmustbeme: it's way worse than that
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tantek.com
edited /LinkedIn (+156) "and the blog post LinkedIn is a Virus"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
Loqi is a perl script that shells out to a PHP script
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cuibonobo
covers loqi's ears
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ben_thatmustbeme
ahh. I knew loqi was perl, but didn't know he ran php too
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reedstrm
my only beef w/ archive.org: they let domain squatters hide history, w/ a deny all robots.txt
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tantek.com
created /keybase (+21) "cap"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
is tempted to fire up a hubot and call him Thor
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tantek
reedstrm: agreed. that's a pretty big beef too.
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petermolnar
Thor should be a bit dumber, but much stronger
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dlyke
reedstrm: Friend's teen daughter: "Facebook is where I talk to people I know, but don't like, Tumblr is where I talk to people I like but don't know."
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ben_thatmustbeme
maybe Thor would not talk, just do the autovoice bits we were talking about
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aaronpk_
darn, Thor is registered
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ben_thatmustbeme
darn too late 'aaronpk_ :Nickname is already in use.'
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'd be surprised if Thor wasn't registered
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tantek.com
created /Keybase (+459) "stub with dfn, outage, see also"
(view diff)
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reedstrm
dang, Þor isn't available either
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'm bored so lets test Loqi.. <style>body{background-color:pink;}</style>
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gRegor`
Thor bot could just randomly say "This digital form has grown weak. I need sustenance!"
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ben_thatmustbeme
thorbot taken?
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tantek
gRegor`: that sounds like botnoise
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tantek
I like that everything Loqi says is in response to *something* - even if it sometimes external events like wiki edits and tweets.
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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ben_thatmustbeme
although he has a tendency to say some silly things at times
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey anomalily
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tantek
Loqi knows to ignore you when he's been mentioned too often.
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gRegor`
(only being funny. :)
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kylewm
reedstrm: I have that exact problem with my old domain and archive.org, very sad
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tantek
I wonder if that could be fixed with https archiving and cert pinning
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tantek
where a *new* site with bad robots.txt couldn't cause the previous/old https site with cert to go away
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ben_thatmustbeme
does it make sense to ever be able to syndicate bookmarks?
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aaronpk_
sure why not?
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aaronpk_
tantek: I like that idea!
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: whether or not it makes sense, adactio does it
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tantek
he POSSEs his bookmark / "link" posts on adactio.com to their own twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay then, just deciding if i should keep support in my model or not
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tantek
what are links?
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Loqi
A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is typically comprised of a URL and optional text accompanying it http://indiewebcamp.com/links
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cuibonobo
reedstrm: i wouldn't be too hard on archive.org. i doubt they have the resources to undergo a legal battle.
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cuibonobo
instead, i would urge all indiewebbers to archive the stuff you read
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reedstrm
I did note that it's my _only_ beef with them.
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cuibonobo
to your own server that is
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tantek
what is indiearchive?
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reedstrm
I had the privilege of eating dinner seated next to Brewster Kahle several (many?) years ago, at a conference. He was an engaging dinner companion.
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Loqi
IndieArchive is a project to collaboratively grow an archive of pages replied to (possibly also mentioned) in indie web posts http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive
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benwerd
ben_thatmustbeme We have a (community-written) Diigo POSSE plugin for bookmarks.
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tantek
cuibonobo: ^^^ how to do that in a collaborative and distributed manner :)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+1083) "/* Fragile */ subheads, clarify MySQL instance, add DB connection loss with Keybase and WordPress citations"
(view diff)
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reedstrm
And don't underestimate their legal savvy: they've gotten themselves certain exemptions for copyright purposes
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reedstrm
I'd think the correct approach for them would be to archive the WHOIS data for domains as well, and only honor robots.txt if the ownership matched.
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey benwerd, how goes the Known startup storm?
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/startup/popularity
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: hey benwerd, how goes the Known popularity storm?
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cuibonobo
tantek: using git is an excellent idea. i wish we could push to it though (instead of depending on a maintainer to pull)
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reedstrm
loves loqi's sed interpreter
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Loqi
hugs reedstrm
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ben_thatmustbeme
reedstrm, i've made loqi repeat things in pig latin that way
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benwerd
ben_thatmustbeme: Good, thanks! Concentrating on features for our hosted Pro accounts, as well as a few interesting general functions that address common questions
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/\b([^aeiou ]*)(\w+)\b/\2\1ay/gi
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: eedstrmray, iaye'vay ademay oqilay epeatray ingsthay inay igpay atinlay atthay ayway
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tantek
cuibonobo: I think aaronpk and barnabywalters have indiearchive implementations of various degrees
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benwerd
ben_thatmustbeme: Best thing has been the feedback button in the top right of every page; we get a lot of emails every day, and they're all super useful.
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ben_thatmustbeme
benwerd, excellent. its really nice to have something polished out there
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ben_thatmustbeme
or being polished
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benwerd
Ha, thanks! It's still version 0.6 - lots and lots more to do.
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benwerd
I'm actually staring at my tasklist in a combination of horror and denial right now.
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ben_thatmustbeme
hahaha, but imagine how great it will feel when you get half way through
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reedstrm
So, did Leo's show kick this off, or just ride the wave?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't say done, tasklists never get done
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ben_thatmustbeme
just longer or shorter
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benwerd
reedstrm: Leo's show blew us away. It's responsible for lots of interest - although we also had demo day the very next day, as well as Gigaom and Wired.
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reedstrm
Ah, so a well orchestrated PR campaign, then.
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benwerd
"Orchestrated" is a strong word, but it worked out really well :)
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reedstrm
Hmm, thinking about thinkup in relation to indieweb ...
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cuibonobo
re: indiearchive, given all the parameters / algorithms that services currently employ to determine the content to show you, i wonder if at least the access location should be stored as well
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auli.haldjas.org
edited /IRC_People (+54) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is thinkup?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "thinkup" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=thinkup
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aaronpk_
oh cuibonobo, I just remembered, for plain lat/lng you can always use geo URIs, like geo:45.52173,-122.67813
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tantek
cuibonobo: also why h-card flattened usage of p-latitude p-longitude and p-altitude http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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aaronpk_
i'm about to attempt to post a note to my site from my pebble watch via micropub
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tantek
no need to wrap them in an h-geo nested object for the simple case
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tantek
same with structured addresses and optional h-adr
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tantek
aaronpk - wat? what input device does pebble watch have? morse code via tapping?
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aaronpk_
it's gonna be a pre-filled list of posts (food)
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tantek
how is that a "note" ?
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tantek
rather than a /collection ?
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aaronpk_
you will see
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aaronpk_
eventually
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cuibonobo
tantek: this is an interesting example. i had concluded to simply flatten my parameters and use dot notation. i.e. location.latitude, location.longitude
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tantek
for what object?
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aaronpk_
dot notation?! but the latitude and longitude may also contain decimal points
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cuibonobo
like this: ?location.latitude="40.0"&location.longitude="50.0"
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aaronpk_
oh gotcha
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tantek
is going to keep quiet about OctalGeo.
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ben_thatmustbeme
continues to watch brid.gy fixes by way of his e-mail
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bret.io
created /OWL (+163) "Created page with "<dfn>OWL</dfn> is the Web Ontology Language, a layer above RDF to define the classes and properties used in RDF, as well as to describe the relations between them.""
(view diff)
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Loqi
aaronpk has 570 karma
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bret
aaronpk_: how did you input that?
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aaronpk_
the string was hard-coded into my app :P
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aaronpk_
but it's a good proof of concept
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tantek
cuibonobo re: HTTP verbs, you might be interested in: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2013/08/lets-remove-verbs-from-http-20.html
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tantek
waits for aaronpk to learn morse code and implement morse code tap-to-text in his pebble
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tantek
so he can secretly post short text notes when in a compromised situation
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KartikPrabhu
re OWL... now we need a layer over RDF which is a layer over HTML... jeees
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: turtle(s) all the way down. pun intended.
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cuibonobo
tantek: i'm surprised at this. putting stuff like DELETE in the request header seems like needless obfuscation
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tantek
so yes, there's a growing set of folks thinking along the lines of just 3 verbs: GET, POST, HEAD
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tantek
for HTTP at least
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tantek
btw Brett (onebigfluke) is co-inventor/author of PuSH
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tantek
so he has some familiarity with this space :)
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cuibonobo
tantek: are there useless verbs? sure. replace DELETE with POST? no.
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tantek
cuibonobo: why not? seems to work for webmention comment CRUD
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tantek
in fact it keeps webmention *much* simpler by doing so
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cuibonobo
the beautiful thing about verbs is that they describe action. removing verbs just pushes the vocabulary to either the object you're sending or the headers
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cuibonobo
i honestly can't fathom why anyone would advocate for *removing* vocabulary.
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cuibonobo
what is this, 1984?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "this, 1984" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=this%2C+1984
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tantek
when you can inspect the state of an object for information, better to retrieve from that than an ephemeral parameter in a protocol
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tantek
because simpler machine vocabularies are a good thing and not to be confused with squishy human vocabularies
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cuibonobo
but how would you know that any particular parameter describes the action?
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tantek
simpler = easier implementations, lower security surface etc.
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tantek
simplify all the (machine) things!
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finchd
isn't webdav the only thing built on HTTP that actually uses all of those verbs? CREATE, DELETE, etc?
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aaronpk_
i'd love to get some opinions on markup for this new post type
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aaronpk_
I'm working on publishing food and drink that I consume
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bret
aaronpk_: make it look like its displayed on your pebl watch, but on your website
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tantek
aaronpk - but how do you want to present it? publish some without explicit markup (e.g. in a note) and then we can analyze based on real world example(s)
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tantek
and then work out vocab backwards from that
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tantek
rather than forward from raw data
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aaronpk_
I'm thinking it will be like "Ate a burrito" or "Drank a coffee" so that it matches the things like "Slept from..."
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tantek
start with what you want the humans to see
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tantek
a-ha - like adactio and toast
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bret
"does this bagel and creme cheese count as pizza?"
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tantek
was the bagel toasted? and half a bagel or both halves?
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bret
aaronpk_: can you just assign emoji to different foods, and then make a timeline and put the emoji on the different parts of the line?
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tantek
food emoji are so limited :(
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bret
coffee = sushi2
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek #firstworldproblems
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: find me an emoji for glass of water :P
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bret
aaronpk_: or do a time based histogram of the foods
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ben_thatmustbeme
can't, about to run to catch the train home
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kylewm
cuibonobo: it makes sense to me to limit the HTTP verbs since you couldn’t possibly enumerate all the possible verbs some application might want. PUT, PATCH, DELETE seem very likely to be misused or bastardized for some slightly different purpose than intended
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aaronpk_
bret: that's all later stuff. I just need something for my http://aaronparecki.com/metrics page
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bret
aaronpk_: yeah im saying make at most 1 entry per day that is a food histogram
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cuibonobo
kylewm: admittedly, I've only used HEAD, GET, POST, PATCH, and DELETE. those map nicely to CRUD too. i feel like the author of this article was just hungry for clicks.
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aaronpk_
bret: interesting. that sorta seems like a collection tho.
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aaronpk_
could be a good summary visualization
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bret
i guess you could give each item in the histogram a url
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tantek
what is food?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "food" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=food
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tantek
what is a meal?
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bret
aaronpk_: depends on how much you want to break it down
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "meal" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=meal
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tantek
what is a drink?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "drink" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=drink
#
bret
what is a draaaank?
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tantek
what is eat?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "draaaank" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=draaaank
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "eat" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=eat
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@yoz
@calliaphone Known is part of #indieweb, whose premise is “hey, maybe we should be posting our thoughts & pics on sites we actually own”
(twitter.com/_/status/517788755785420800)
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kylewm
cuibonobo: do you know of any public webservices that use ^{GET, POST} ? I’m only really familiar with FB, Twitter, Wordpress, Disqus APIs
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cuibonobo
kylewm: github also uses PUT and DELETE
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cuibonobo
ah! turns out they use PATCH too
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bret
aaronpk_: unless you wanted to tie in coffeetime with these meal metrics, (ie sending webmentions about 'dat coffee' so and so owes you) i dont see the purpose for having urls for each food item
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aaronpk_
bret: each item has a timestamp of when I ate it
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tantek
dt-consumed lol
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bret
sure, that would be preserved in the collection, similar to your sleep logs
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kylewm
cuibonobo: interesting, thanks!
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cuibonobo
kylewm: oh! amazon's S3 also uses more verbs. DELETE and POST.
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KartikPrabhu
how does one delete a post though micropub?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: looks like you can’t officially. ben_thatmustbeme uses a special field operation=’delete’
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KartikPrabhu
hmm seems like this HTTP verb things are useful, except they can't be used with HTML forms for some strange reason
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KartikPrabhu
adding a field to do CRUD seems like reinventing the verb thingie
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tantek__
does some research to answer Kartik's HTML form question
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cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: since PUT and DELETE don't exist in HTML forms, you'd only be able to perform them with AJAX
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: yeah
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aaronpk_
keep in mind that if you send a DELETE request to the micropub endpoint that's implying you're trying to delete the micropub endpoint
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cuibonobo
exactly. DELETE requests should only be sent to the specific thing you want to delete
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KartikPrabhu
tantek__ there is this http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/211790 which makes no sense to me
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk_ I know and that is not my goal anyway
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aaronpk_
right now micropub defines two parameters, "h" and "url"
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aaronpk_
everything else is part of the content of the post
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KartikPrabhu
if I am making a post interface for my site, I want a delete action
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cuibonobo
we were discussing before that making all of your URLs responsive like that would be impossible on a static site. so micropub is responding to the situation in which it would be used
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Loqi
gives KartikPrabhu a delete action
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KartikPrabhu
thanks Loqi!
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Loqi
you're welcome
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aaronpk_
create: h=entry update: h=entry&url=...
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aaronpk_
so what should delete look like?
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KartikPrabhu
ok but why even have those verbs in HTTP then? or even AJAx?
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KartikPrabhu
re write the spec and get rid of them
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tantek__
short answer, looks like the model of how PUT and DELETE in a <form> should work is undefined, and the door has been left open to someone (anyone) writing up an HTML5 extension specification that defines their behavior and then tries to get browser interested in implementing them.
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aaronpk_
any word that is chosen for the parameter name cannot be used as a content field of the post
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tantek__
KartikPrabhu - " why even have those verbs in HTTP then?" exactly
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tantek__
hence Brett (onebigfluke) proposal to drop them
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KartikPrabhu
oh ok tantek__ why have POST, lets use one verb REQUEST
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tantek__
KartikPrabhu - POST is well defined, interoperably implemented
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tantek__
at both HTML and HTTP layers
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tantek__
so in short, it works (well), don't break it :)
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KartikPrabhu
this is going around in circles
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cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: PUT and DELETE have a specific semantic meaning and when I sent a request with those methods, the server should always respond in the same way
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tantek__
much easier to advocate dropping things that never made it to the user visible bits
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KartikPrabhu
tantek__ no one uses it because there is no spec, there is no spec because no one uses it
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cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: POST on the other hand, doesn't have that limitation. it's expected that the state of the server will continuously change if i continue sending POST requests
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cuibonobo
(which is why forms will warn you about sending data again)
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tantek__
KartikPrabhu - you are referring to the chicken/egg problem. however note that plenty of standards have overcome that, so it's not a reasonable excuse.
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: yeah. I know you can't mung everything into one verb, :)
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tantek__
hence my point about if you really care, start with writing an HTML5 extension spec for PUT/DELETE - others may be interested as well
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tantek__
might want to start with a use-case for having such FORM functionality in HTML
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KartikPrabhu
tantek__ it seems people who write specs are not interested in using it, and people who want to use it are not interested in witing a spec so it will be in this limbo forever
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tantek__
the separation of functionality between HEAD, GET, POST seems quite nice and minimal
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KartikPrabhu
tantek__ I want to make a button to delete a post
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tantek__
minimal info, idempotent retrieval, change something
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cuibonobo
tantek__: but POST is not idempotent?
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tantek__
cuibonobo no - as you observed
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tantek__
" (which is why forms will warn you about sending data again)"
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cuibonobo
i meant the question mark ironically
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tantek__
my point is that that conceptual separation into only 3 categories of action is quite elegant
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tantek__
and good design from a modularity perspective
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tantek__
and leave the spectrum of what *kinds* of changes you want to make up to another layer
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tantek__
KartikPrabuhu "to delete a post" - you'd use an HTTP POST - with additional semantics
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cuibonobo
as i think about it more, i begin to realize that the needs of people and the needs of machines are different. removing everything but HEAD, GET, and POST addresses the needs of people (who are able to reason about sending form data twice)
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cuibonobo
meanwhile, a machine can't reason about anything. if a machine is unsure that a request was sent, it can simply PUT again.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek__ too many turtles for me already
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tantek__
cuibonobo - precisely. everything needs to have a thread back to the needs of the people (user-centered / use-case-centered design)
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tantek__
KartikPrabhu turtles != modules
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KartikPrabhu
or layers
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tantek__
building blocks are a good thing
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KartikPrabhu
you like 3 types of verbs, others like 5 <shrug>
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KartikPrabhu
"doesn't save lives" so...
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cuibonobo
and what if *i* am unsure that a request was processed? (because of network issues or what have you) i can PUT again. PUT != POST
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tantek__
KartikPrabhu - experience has shown *lots* of variance in that "5" number. but not in those 3.
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KartikPrabhu
I just made it into 1
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KartikPrabhu
REQUEST is the verbs and not use additional layer to say what kind of request. It can be done, no one wants to do it.
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tantek__
what you made into 1 sounds like an unnecessary layer of abstraction
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KartikPrabhu
same with POST + additional semantics... sounds unnecessary to me
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KartikPrabhu
too many layers for me, but well
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tantek__
it defers needing to define a full set of changing verbs
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tantek__
which clearly people have added to over time
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tantek__
per the above references (e.g. annevk's research)
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tantek__
cuibonobo your point about PUT is a good one. will think on that some more.
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tantek__
cuibonobo are you saying PUT is an idempotent change?
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cuibonobo
it is by definition
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tantek__
ok I understand your distinction now.
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tantek__
the other aspect which I feel is grossly neglected in any HTTP verb model (which is hinted at in http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Explicit_CRUD ) is the *user* notion of being able to UNDO changes.
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shaners
Oof. I left the channel hours ago and came back to find yall are still talking about HTTP verbs. :P
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tantek__
If I was going to start *anywhere* with looking at changes to this HTML+HTTP layering, I'd start with UIs that provide *UNDO* support.
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tantek__
IMO that's far more interesting/important than arguing about why not PUT/DELETE etc.
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tantek__
shaners, welcome the broader conversation that is /micropub
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tantek__
s/the/to the
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Loqi
tantek__ meant to say: shaners, welcome to the broader conversation that is /micropub
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shaners
oh sure. i read the logs. ;)
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tantek__
AFAIK no one has implemented any form of "Undo" in their micropub clients - except maybe OpenBlog?
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cuibonobo
tantek__: RESTful architectures specifically push UI concerns to the client. your application needs to keep a cache of your recent operations and essentially PUT back any DELETEs, for example
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shaners
This whole To REST or Not To REST always feels religous to me. Like To DB or Not To DB.
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tantek__
shaners - I think that's a misreading - of both debates, each of which cite *specific* problems / concerns / use-cases. not religous [sic]
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cuibonobo
shaners: absolutely. and in the context of micropub specifically, REST doesn't make sense
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tantek__
the static site use-case is a very good pragmatic reason against REST
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cuibonobo
exactly
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tantek__
that is, user use-case trumps any notion of architectural purity
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KevinMarks___
Undo is the argument against crud
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shaners
I've always thought that if you don't like REST, don't use it.
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cuibonobo
well, architectural purity is useless if the thing doesn't work
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tantek__
cuibonobo thank you for clarifying that for me - that's the first time I've had it explained to me that simply.
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tantek__
the bit about static-sites vs. REST
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tantek__
excellent insight and observation
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KevinMarks___
Update and delete should affect edit history, not be irrevocable
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tantek__
Kevinmarks, interesting posit
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tantek__
are you proposing CRUDU?
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KevinMarks___
It's the "keep all the versions" argument
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tantek__
ok I'm convinced
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cuibonobo
KevinMarks___: i feel like you're just shifting the problem. instead of your data store being your source of truth, now your edit history is
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tantek__
(Create + Undo) = unsend (per gmail extension)
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tantek__
(Update + Undo) = revert
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KevinMarks___
which is a deep architectural one, as it moves us off a von neumann architecture to a functional one
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tantek__
(Delete + Undo) = undelete
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tantek__
each of those (unsend, revert, undelete) are *user* level features
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KevinMarks___
Even sql has commit and rollback
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tantek__
and use of "Undo" provides the flexibility of leaving state tracking up to the *server* rather than (any number of) clients
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KartikPrabhu
hmm so now I should store history of changes somewhere too
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cuibonobo
tantek__: it's interesting you mention gmail. in the app, unsend doesn't *actually* unsend. the app is simply waiting a predetermined time before sending. once the email is actually sent, you're SOL
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KartikPrabhu
this is getting more complicated
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KevinMarks___
That's the git worldview
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KartikPrabhu
yeah and git isn't so easy to use for me at least
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tantek__
cuibonobo: similarly, I'm working on delayed POSSE, so I can unpost
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KevinMarks___
Is my longer essay / rant on this
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tantek__
cuibonobo re: "cache of your recent operations and essentially PUT back any DELETEs, for example" - in an unreliable network environment (the usual), that's not a reasonable assumption, especially without transactional integrity.
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cuibonobo
tantek__: your app shouldn't clear its history until it gets the 200 OK i would imagine
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tantek__
I should be able to hit "Post" from my laptop, pack it up, walk away, realize, OOPS, open my mobile device, and press Undo.
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finchd
undo with email is very hard, because allowing one user on this server to delete email (ostensibly the one they sent) from other people's inboxes on *all* other servers (or worse if they collect their mail on their personal machines (which may be offline)) is asking to get abused
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Loqi
agreed.
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tantek__
finchd - unsend in practice is only delayed send.
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finchd
Loqi++
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Loqi
Loqi has 302 karma
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finchd
tantek__: exactly, because real usend would take a fundamental security/identity rewrite
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tantek__
and IMO delayed send works GREAT in practice for enabling unsend
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cuibonobo
tantek__: this can be solved with immutable posts. your server should keep all versions.
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tantek__
cuibonobo I'm not sure what that means in terms of UI
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tantek__
I'm talking about having "Publish" as a button, and then "Unpublish" (for some period of time)
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tantek__
per gmail unsend analogy / example
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tantek__
and being able to do that across clients = can't depend on any one client to cache state and use that
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KartikPrabhu
tantek__ does "unpublish" exist in Wordpress already?
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cuibonobo
tantek__: but the gmail example won't work for the 'work on your laptop, undo on your mobile device' example
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tantek__
KartikPrabhu - not AFAIK
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cuibonobo
so you can't depend on a delay
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tantek__
cuibonobo you're right - that's a new feature that I want for my own site
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finchd
storing all versions probably is the (between devices) answer, but only works on your site, it can't guarantee that it removes your POSSE/PESOS stuff from everywhere it got relayed to
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tantek__
I was only using the gmail unsend example as a way of hinting at step one of this kind of user-model thinking
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tantek__
finchd - hence delayed POSSE (as noted above), similar to delayed *actual* send
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tantek__
I would also delay the PuSH and feed update as well
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cuibonobo
in order to get undo from any device to work: create a post (version 1), delete the post (version 2), undo the delete (version 3 == restoring the data from version 1)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek__ just checked in Wordpress you can change the status of post from "Published" to "Draft" or "In Review" at any time
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tantek__
except in actual UI terms, deleting and undoing a post have very different UX expectations
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finchd
tantek__: ooh, sorry, yes. also DB-backed sites could delay display, then you could do inter-device time-limited undo
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tantek__
e.g. undoing a post (send) drops you back into the editor
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tantek__
finchd - should work with either DB-backend or file-storage backend - pretty sure that plumbing should be transparent for this use-case
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cuibonobo
tantek__: it's best for your editing app to work that out i think. no need to overload your data store with that knowledge
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tantek__
cuibonobo - not overloading, point is that information has to be somewhere client-independent otherwise the UI can't work it out
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tantek__
also you can always delete. point of undoing a post/send is that it's a time-limited operation.
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tantek__
e.g. 30-60 seconds timeout
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tantek__
undoing a post != delete. they're very different from a UX perspective
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cuibonobo
but why does your data store need to know anything about UX?
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tantek__
your data store needs to store whatever bits the UX needs to reconstruct the state for the user, that's why it cares.
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KevinMarks___
Is quantum wavefunction collapse the expiry of the universe's undo buffer?
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tantek__
Undo is hard UX. Perhaps why only gmail (in an extension no less) implements it in popular usage.
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cuibonobo
your editing application should be aware of the context in which the user performed an action by keeping a time-limited cache. my primary data store doesn't need to know about any of that.
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tantek__
we only disagree about the time-limit being a cache. and being on the client vs. the server.
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tantek__
*a* client vs. *the* server I should say
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KevinMarks___
Well, Gdrive and macos /iOS are undo based filesystems now
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dlyke
Interesting notion here of undo attached to a data store rather than a device... Although I'd suggest that some sites' time limited edit windows are similar...
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KevinMarks___
The end of save and the addition of revert
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cuibonobo
tantek__: ah. i realize why we disagree. "your data store needs to store whatever bits the UX needs to reconstruct the state for the user". in the interest of separation of concerns, i disagree with this.
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cuibonobo
but i suppose you *could* store the state on the server!
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finchd
cuibonobo: where else do you store something 2+ clients should know?
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KartikPrabhu
that is the thing with REST right? server does not store client states
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KevinMarks___
This gets more important if it is a shared resource
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cuibonobo
finchd: in the model that i proposed, the server would simply store all the different versions of a piece of content. it's up to the application to make sense of those versions to provide a meaningful experience
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: possibly using timestamps to time-order from multiple clients?
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KevinMarks___
And whether it stores them as snapshots or edits is invisible to the clients?
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KevinMarks___
Then we get into operational transforms for edit order independence
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shaners
If any of you are interested in this, some friends of mine have just launched an alpha test of a private self-hosted Heroku like thing called Vektra. http://discuss.vektra.com/t/welcome-alpha-warriors/8
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shaners
And they're using Homesteading's Notes as their demo app. #indieweb!
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tantek
what is Vektra?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Vektra" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Vektra
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tantek
shaners ^^^ :)
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@AnastasiaAshman
@benwerd @erinjo, founders of @withknown, do you know @teacher_suzy #founder of @tinker_ed? You should! #edtech #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/517804961363529728)
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shaners
I'VE BEEN TANTEKED! ;)
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tantek
cuibonobo: separation of concerns is only useful when it helps implementation practice - otherwise it leads down the horrible path of java-style seemingly infinite call stacks.
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tantek
in this case, I'm positing that storing that information on the server (undo-ness, timing) actually simplifies implementation on both server and clients, likely improves reliability too. of course actual answers will have to await an actual implementation. so just opinion for now.
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tantek
recalls something about HTTP supposing to be stateless, implying all state stored on the server.
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cuibonobo
tantek: indeed! all state about the *resource* should live on the server, which is why i call it my 'point of truth'. application and user states are another thing entirely
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tantek
I don't think users understand "application and user states" being different, thus just "state".
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tantek
even as someone who might understand "application and user states" being different, I don't want to have to think about that. I don't want that cognitive load in a user interface that I myself use.
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cuibonobo
tantek: if your application is well-designed, the user doesn't have to think about anything. server state lives on the server, application state lives on the application, and the user doesn't have to care about any of that
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tantek
network unreliability interferes with any chance of that
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cuibonobo
if your application is well-designed, it will respond to server status codes and the like. just like everything else.
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cuibonobo
for example, if i have my gmail app open and disconnect my internet, the app knows that it can no longer communicate with the server and lets me know
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KevinMarks___
Which is easy for email, but harder for documents with shared edits
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iamshane.com
created /Vektra (+1655) "Vektra"
(view diff)
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shaners
What is vektra?
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Loqi
Vektra is a platform as a service (PaaS) that can be run locally on your own computer or "in the cloud" on a server http://indiewebcamp.com/Vektra
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shaners
Does Loqi truncate at the punctuation or at a character length?
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Loqi
who, me?
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shaners
Yes, you.
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aaronpk_
tries to find a single sentence
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aaronpk_
you can also add an explicit p-summary tag around it
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iamshane.com
edited /Vektra (-13) "improve dfn sentence"
(view diff)
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shaners
What is vektra?
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Loqi
Vektra is a (largely) Heroku-compatible platform as a service (PaaS) that can be run locally on your own computer or "in the cloud" on a server http://indiewebcamp.com/Vektra
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shaners
What is Heroku?
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Loqi
Heroku is a platform as a service (PaaS) that supports Ruby, Java, Node.js, Scala, Clojure, Python, PHP and others http://indiewebcamp.com/Heroku
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shaners
Good enough for government work!
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rascul.io
edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+221) "/* Apprentices */ add my apprentice jessie"
(view diff)
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cuibonobo
i only hang out on #indiewebcamp for the chicken references
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benwerd
shaners: No, but seek out the video of the live presentation. It's a sight to behold.
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shaners
i can only imagine
chrissaad joined the channel
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cuibonobo
the audience's laughter is infectious! also: chickens
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gRegor`
After catching up on the logs, I need a . . . rest
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cuibonobo
OH NO HE DIDN'T
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gRegor`
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah *sunglasses*
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cuibonobo
*deal-with-it.gif*
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gRegor`
Hahaha
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cuibonobo
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 61 karma
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm++ :D
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Loqi
kylewm has 62 karma
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kylewm
tee hee
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kylewm
cuibonobo educates everyone about REST and I get the karma
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kylewm
sounds right
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gRegor`
cuibonobo++
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Loqi
cuibonobo has 11 karma
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo++
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Loqi
cuibonobo has 12 karma
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cuibonobo
hah! shucks you guys :)
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cuibonobo
i just like to get tantek riled up ;)
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kylewm
speaking of, cuibonobo you should add yourself to /Python
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cuibonobo
ah. sure thing.
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KartikPrabhu
moar python
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aaronpk_
so... "Drank <data class="p-quantity" value="1">a</data> <span class="p-drink">coffee</span>"?
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shaners
aaronpk_ I think p-drink is too specific
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aaronpk_
p-consume?
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KartikPrabhu
we should use RDF with type=drink
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Loqi
fo sho
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shaners
it should be a noun, right?
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KartikPrabhu
shaners: yeah agreed
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dlyke
wouldn't you need "p-units p-drink", to specify that "coffee" is both the substance and the quantity?
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jenmontes.com
edited /Python (+235) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Added myself to indieweb examples"
(view diff)
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dlyke
(Albeit a poorly specified one, that could be 8 to 20 oz)
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /Python (+21) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ moved Jen earlier in order"
(view diff)
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tantek
cuibonobo++ for being a patient teacher
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Loqi
cuibonobo has 13 karma
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aaronpk_
I hate this part of publishing new kinds of data. Whatever decision I make now is going to stick around for a long long time because it gets coded into things all over the place.
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tantek
aaronpk - so use *-x-* or *-aaronpk-*
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aaronpk_
but then i'm gonna have to change it later!
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tantek
aaronpk - better *you* change it later than it "stick around for a long long time because it gets coded into things all over the place"
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KartikPrabhu
is having the same problem with changing u-photo to u-featured
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aaronpk_
i meant all over the place being my server and my wrist
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tantek
aaronpk - especially with anything new. ESPECIALLY with something with no documented research.
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tantek
see for example examples of p-good-preptime vs p-x-prep-time (difference deliberate)
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gRegor`
u-featured for photo? hm
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tantek
if you just want to make up names and change things as you go along *without* first doing/documenting research, then h-aaronpk-* and p-aaronpk-* go for it. implementation experiments are also useful (independent of research)
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dlyke
gregor` <img src=".*?
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aaronpk_
I think I'm gonna just go with this as an implementation experiment
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dlyke
gregor`: Ugh, trying again... <img src=".*?\.jpg"> says "photo", u-featured says "this is a featured image", or this is a good image to use to represent the content on this page, or some other semantic meaning.
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gRegor`
Just wondering about the use of "featured"
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gRegor`
Seems broad. Featured image? Featured product?
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dlyke
Apparently it's drawn from WordPress's "Featured Image" language. http://indiewebcamp.com/link-preview
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gRegor`
But Kartik is gone at the moment. I'll pick his brain about it
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tantek
aaronpk for microformats/wiki/food-examples I give you this starting seed citation: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=from%3Aadactio%20toast&src=typd
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gRegor`
Interesting
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tantek
rascul++ for excellent recruiting!
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Loqi
rascul has 22 karma
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tantek
waits for aaronpk to see the photos in that twitter search and see if he thought of how "consumed" posts should have photos or not and how.
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aaronpk_
tantek: that's awesome
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tantek
and this is why we research and document examples
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aaronpk_
photos would be sweet, but I am not likely to post photos for a while
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aaronpk_
right now I have 14 months of food data in backlog that I am going to publish
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tantek
hypothesizes that aaronpk has published "consumed" posts with "photos" on instagram.com/aaronpk in the past
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tantek
aaronpk, that sounds nuts.
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aaronpk_
it is, in fact
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aaronpk_
is all about the complete data sets
wolftune, Pierre-O and evan joined the channel
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evan
I believe shane posted about Vektra earlier
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evan
I thought I'd pop in and answer any questions y'all have
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tantek
welcome evan!
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tantek
what's your personal site?
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evan
hello t!
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evan
I suppose it's blog.fallingsnow.net
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evan
though it's a sad personal site.
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tantek
welcome to the club :)
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evan
I should make a personal site that just pulls down my twitter feed and uses a markov generator on each tweet to create a post
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Loqi
definitely
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rascul
what is pesos?
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Loqi
PESOS is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish Elsewhere, Syndicate (to your) Own Site http://indiewebcamp.com/pesos
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evan
well, i'll just idle a bit
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evan
if y'all have any vektra related questions
Pierre-O joined the channel
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tantek
evan - site looks pretty clean actually. interesting infinite scroll implementation.
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tantek
plenty of other WordPress folks here too
alexhart_ joined the channel
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tantek
is that "Twitter Updates" thing a plugin? or are you able to change the markup? or both?
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GWG
Did someone say WordPress?
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GWG
tantek: What are your thoughts on infinite scroll vs pagination?
alexhartley joined the channel
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tantek
what is infinite scroll?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "infinite scroll" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=infinite+scroll
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tantek
what is pagination?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pagination" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pagination
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@wchrisjohnson
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern
(twitter.com/_/status/517825282707701760)
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rascul
not that again
mlncn joined the channel
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tantek
nice to see the lack of appreciation of reverse psychology by the retweeters, or perhaps they mean to send people here