#indiewebcamp 2014-10-17

2014-10-17 UTC
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tantek
is still documenting snarfed's FAQ and others' too.
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tantek
re: templates for microformatted html - for most post pages and things like reply /reply-context etc. we do have "how to mark up" suggestions. we can and should add more.
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tantek
every type of post page should have some suggested way to mark it up
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tantek
which should hopefully refer back to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry for more examples / how-to
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tantek
as kylewm says, as a guideline or at least getting started
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tantek
yes I use some XPath in Falcon
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tantek
search cassis.js for /* XPath */ :)
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tantek
nm - I see kylewm posted
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tantek
alright it sounds like for consuming applications, we need /stream-discovery /post-discovery and /post-parsing
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tantek
(preferring stream over feed, and post over entry)
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tantek
(user-centric terms over legacy plumbing-centric terms)
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KartikPrabhu__
tantek: do you mean algorithms for those three like authorship discovery algorithm?
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tantek
to reduce the pain that I think Mark87 is referring to
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KartikPrabhu__
hmm a more precise pain point would be useful
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tantek
also, pretty sure this can be done quickly by a mix of I can braindump, and barnabywalters can share his experience with reading h-feed and h-entry for /shrewdness
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KartikPrabhu__
I haven't been pained by any mf2 output using
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: to put words in Mark87's mouth/keyboard:
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tantek
how do I find the primary stream of posts on a page?
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KartikPrabhu__
and might I recommend /mf2util by kylewm for python users
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tantek
how do I find a post inside a stream on a page?
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tantek
how do I find a post on a page?
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kylewm
thanks, KartikPrabhu :)
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KartikPrabhu__
would those be more than "look for first h-feed/entry"?
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tantek
how do I find the details of a post on a page like name of post if any, content, summary, author, date published, date updated if any, featured image or other link-preview?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's possible that the answers are that short
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KartikPrabhu__
oh ok with the added details maybe a documentation is useful
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tantek
we should still document them
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tantek
as the answers may not be so obvious to the casual (or new) observer
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KartikPrabhu__
yes. I might be biased due to writing code for mf2py and digging through everything
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fiatjaf
wasn't the silos the inventors of many of the features indieweb sites support today (like tweets, check-ins and songs heard)?
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: yes! no one here denies the UI advances that happened in silos instead of on everyone's website
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KartikPrabhu__
note silos don't support cross-silo interactions though :P
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you're biased because you've already spent the time figuring out the answers, which are now obvious to you ;)
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KartikPrabhu__
tantek: yes!
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KartikPrabhu__
kylewm: maybe an outline of the algo used in /mf2util might be a good start in this direction
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tantek
fiatjaf: re: silos the inventors - yes! very much so and we're documenting them as we can! http://indiewebcamp.com/silos#Silo_Innovations
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mowens.com
edited /checkin (+92) "/* Michael Owens */"
(view diff)
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fiatjaf
I was thinking that maybe people here could think twice about these inventions. they may not be so good as they seem.
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fiatjaf
but I'm just saying that because I personally don't like a lot of these features
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: any examples? also everyone is free to implement whatever subset of features they like
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fiatjaf
(but I am not trying to judge any of you)
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fiatjaf
(neither criticize)
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: "not good" in what sense though?
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fiatjaf
(I don't have any criticisms. in contrary, I was looking for them)
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: I don't think you'll encounter much oppposition to "i don't want to implement X"
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fiatjaf
KartikPrabhu__: oh, for example, maybe tweets are bad because they disencourage long thoughts about subjects.
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tantek
fiatjaf: "tweets" meaning short text notes were done by people on their own sites LONG before Twitter
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: of course! but people here have /notes not tweets :)
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KartikPrabhu__
any length restriction is up to you
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+297) "/* Silo Innovations */ add checkins and scrobbles per fiatjaf pointing them out"
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fiatjaf
KartikPrabhu__: right, right
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tantek
is "discourage long thoughts about subjects" worthy of adding to a "Criticism" section on /note ? fiatjaf, KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu__
tantek: /notes don't have any strict length limit so probably not. But criticism of /Twitter maybe
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fiatjaf
tantek: really? I didn't know that. I am not from the US, and I am new at the computers world, so the first time I heard the word "tweet" was about thing people wrote at twitter.com
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tantek
fiatjaf: certainly "tweet" was an invention of Twitter as a term, but the underlying concept of a short text note long predates Twitter
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tantek
the original Blogger tool only let you post text notes (without a title)
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tantek
many of the first bloggers in the late 1990s posted short text notes
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tantek
which is probably why Twitter's success caught nearly all of them by surprise
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tantek
needs to get another laptop to keep up with the rate of topics in #indiewebcamp
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: are you already writing on your on site?
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KartikPrabhu__
needs his actual laptop to be delivered from Hong Kong!
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fiatjaf
tantek: understood.
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fiatjaf
KartikPrabhu__: http://fiatjaf.github.io/ I have two old posts, content from others' and the clippings I make when reading anything at my kindle. but it is mostly portuguese.
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@almereyda
Hi @davewiner: Is #Radio3.io consciously an @indiewebcamp approach to publishing, like @withknown, or does it stay a service without source?
(twitter.com/_/status/522908073296674817)
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: nice! I was looking into posting reading notes too
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kylewm
are you an economist fiatjaf?
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KartikPrabhu__
fiatjaf: yes just like those ones :)
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fiatjaf
kylewm: probably, it depends on your concept of "economist" :P
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kylewm
my entire understanding of Brazil's economy is based on http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money but it seems *fascinating*
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fiatjaf
what is comments
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Loqi
A comment is a kind of post that is in reply to some other post, that makes little or no sense without reading or at least knowing the context of the source post http://indiewebcamp.com/comments
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fiatjaf
kylewm: is it about Brazil?
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fiatjaf
kylewm: seems to be about money in general.
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kylewm
fiatjaf: only Act 1
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tantek.com
edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[photos]] to [[photo]] over redirect: singularize"
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fiatjaf
kylewm: I am hearing it.
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tantek.com
edited /Photos (-1) "r"
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fiatjaf
Act 1 is about money, the rest is about Brazil?
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tantek
On another topic: those of you posting photos on your own sites http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to people-tag the people in the photos?
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kylewm
fiatjaf: Act 1 is called "The Lie that Saved Brazil", about the invention of the Real: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money?act=1
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tantek
alright, I'm going to !tell that one
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kylewm
I'm interested in having "in this photo: list of names" type tags, but not so much tagging x/y coordinates
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KartikPrabhu__
tantek: by people tag you mean the UI where it tags some region on the photo with people?
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tantek.com
moved /people-tag to /person-tag "singularize"
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tantek.com
created /people_tag (+24) "r"
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tantek.com
created /person_tag (+24) "r"
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Mark87
does anyone here follow Dave Winer at all?
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: follow as in?
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Mark87
pay attention to?
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Mark87
read his stuff on any sort of regular basis
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Mark87
know who he is?
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kylewm
Mark87: I have just started recently
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KartikPrabhu__
hmm i read th things that people here link/refer
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kylewm
Mark87: why do you ask?
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Mark87
kylewm I just started to recently. Somebody needs to get him involved in indieweb
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Mark87
he's following a similar thought process as us
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tantek
Mark87 - I used to, since he has interesting opinions that are often different, however I have stopped since the misogynist and ageist posts :(
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kylewm
afaict, he is well-aware and uninterested
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Loqi
it'll be ok
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Mark87
I see
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: hmmm quite unlikely. He views indiewebcamp as anti-RSS
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Mark87
no one has any links handy do they?
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KartikPrabhu__
or that is my reading of his view
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tantek
Mark87 - his writings on those matters are pretty clear violations of our /code-of-conduct
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tantek
which is unfortunate, because he is obviously quite passionate about a lot of the same /principles as indieweb
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@davewiner
If you're going to @indiewebcamp today, please tell them that RSS is a good thing for independence, and please use it, don't fight it. ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/482858756800520192)
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tantek
Mark87 - I don't want to link to specifics of those directly - you can discover the easily by google for "winer misogynist" or "winer ageist". I keep holding out hope that he will retract and apologize.
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tantek.com
created /person_tagging (+24) "r for findability"
(view diff)
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Mark87
interesting
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Mark87
i have googled for 8 minutes. i am now an expert
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+250) "/* Silo Examples */ FB limitation 50 people"
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fiatjaf
kylewm: I like the interviews. I'd never heard such happy casual interviews with these guys before.
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@djp1974
"Techno-utopians like to argue that open systems always win, but that simply isn’t true" @caseorganic http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/11/the-internet-of-someone-elses-things/ #iot #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/522917853133934592)
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tantek
!tell snarfed,bret,benwerd,aaronpk,adactio,KartikPrabhu since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+704) "IndieWeb interest"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: a "person tag" is something semantic about the photo, and yes usually has a specific UI for a user to explicitly "person tag" someone in a post rather than just "mention" a person. More: http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+128) "person, and explicit tag vs. mention"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is a person tag?
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Loqi
A person tag (AKA people tag) is a special kind of tag that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tag by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag
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KartikPrabhu__
not much of an itch for me since I don't really have people with URLs to tag afaik
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu__: tantek left you a message 24 minutes ago: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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Mark87
why are some people duplicating e-content as p-name in their h-entry markup?
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: example?
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KartikPrabhu__
probably because they are /notes notes don't have a separate p-name
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Mark87
do you do it for compatibility or something? if there's no title why not exclude it?
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kylewm
Mark87: everything has a name property, if you don't give one, one will be generated for you
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kylewm
and you won't like the one that is generated
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kylewm
so people mark up the thing that is closest to a name
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: yeah the p-name is implied but it will pick up all the text inside the h-entry including date and synicated to links
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Mark87
http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Properties seems to say that all properties are optional, and "title-less" notes can exist
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Mark87
what software is autogenerating titles?
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kylewm
uh oh, we have a new thing that is between a /note and an /article http://waxy.org/2014/10/middling/
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KartikPrabhu__
yes they can. but parsers will make a p-name for you if there is none
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Mark87
which parsers?
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Mark87
if you don't mind me asking
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KartikPrabhu__
all microformat parsers
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Mark87
well that's annoying. I'll just do a check if title=content ignore it
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Mark87
for my purposes
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: that is th definition of a note anyway
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KartikPrabhu__
it is the safe default for any plaintext aka p-* property
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Mark87
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 71 karma
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tantek
Mark87: re: title==content, see http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm for a more precise algorithm
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tantek
kylewm re: middling, I think that's still just a note
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tantek
unless he names his posts (titles), then it's an article. still a simple distinction I think.
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KartikPrabhu__
lets call a norticle!
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Mark87
twiddicle?
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tantek
that being said, if you find an example in the wild of something between a note and an article, feel free to post the URL and we can debate it :)
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GWG
reads u
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GWG
reads up
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KevinMarks__
I caught up on backscroll, then everyone left
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GWG
KevinMarks__: What am I? Chopped liver?
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GWG
Everyone in the previous conversation
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KevinMarks__
Everyone I wanted to bicker with
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KevinMarks__
Mark87 and danlyke for example
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GWG
KevinMarks__: Anything I can do?
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KevinMarks__
I think that turning the output on the mf2 parser into rss for further processing is like the mathematician making tea
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GWG
KevinMarks__: While RSS still has its place, it does seem like a step backward. I can understand RSS -> MF2
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KevinMarks__
S/ on / of /
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KevinMarks__
I'm assuming everyone knows that joke?
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GWG
Never heard it before
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KevinMarks__
The mathematician makes a cup of tea: he gets the kettle out of the cupboard, fold it with water, puts it on the stove, waits for it to boil, scalds the teapot, adds leaf tea, pours the booking water in, waits 5 minutes, pours some tea into a cup, adds milk and drinks it
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kylewm
is enjoying KevinMarks's literary flourishes. much better than the description from wikipedia
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GWG
I'm missing something here
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KevinMarks__
His colleague asks for a cup of tea. So the mathematician empties the teapot and kettle down the sink, puts them back in the cupboard, and now has can apply the existing method
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GWG
Missed the last part
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KevinMarks__
Sorry, took a while to type on the android
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kylewm
javascript question, can i catch mouseclicks anywhere inside a div that are not otherwise handled (e.g., by a <a>)
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kylewm
for example, in twitter you can click on a tweet to see more details, but that doesn't interfere with clicking on links in the tweet
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KevinMarks__
Can't you add an onclick handler to the div?
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kylewm
that's what I do, but as aaronpk pointed out this morning, ctrl-clicking on a link in the div opens the link in a new tab, but *also* activates the onclick handler
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KevinMarks__
Iirc clicks get passed through to container if nothing else eats it first
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kylewm
oh... maybe that's not what i do then
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KevinMarks__
Maybe the link needs to have an onclick too that returns false?
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KevinMarks__
Or will that stop the default click behaviour?
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kylewm
i think that that would stop the click behavior
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kylewm
man this is sounding like Swing (Java)
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GWG
I had planned on doing some stuff in the next few days
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GWG
But I have a bad cold. Been sleeping a lot more to try to kill it before I go out of the country
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kylewm
sorry to hear that GWG, it seems like it has been going around. try to get some rest
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GWG
I did a bunch
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kylewm
KevinMarks__: i see, it looks like 'return false' does stop event propgation if you are using jquery
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kylewm
what is Movable Type?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Movable Type" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Movable+Type
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KevinMarks__
Movable type is interesting in the database debate. It users a database, but renders all pages to static files by default
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KevinMarks__
s/users/uses/
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Loqi
KevinMarks__ meant to say: Movable type is interesting in the database debate. It uses a database, but renders all pages to static files by default
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KevinMarks__
So sites made with it tend to be less fragile and persist longer
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kylewm
it looks like it used to be free but is now $600 and is also on github?
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KevinMarks__
That got a bit murky, yes. SixApart ended up with multiple blog engines in different states of openness and payment
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KevinMarks__
I lost track
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KevinMarks__
Movable type, livejournal, vox, some corporate fork of mt, pownce
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@obra
@antifuchs No, known is the indieweb software I use to power s.ly
(twitter.com/_/status/522972040400105472)
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KevinMarks__
Typepad too
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kylewm.com
created /Movable_Type (+807) "stub"
(view diff)
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kylewm
KevinMarks__ I quoted you^
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kylewm
I was amused that he said "medium-length" to mean "shorter than something you would post on Medium" https://twitter.com/waxpancake/status/522924066060398592
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@waxpancake
I love @mathowie's new blog: http://tilde.club/~mathowie/ I really miss medium-length blogging, I think I'll start doing it again on Waxy.
(twitter.com/_/status/522924066060398592)
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GWG
Updating my subscription list. Who writes interesting indieweb and such type articles I want to follow?
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@kevinmarks
@waxpancake @markjaquith @mattcutts it can support h-feed, h-entry, indieauth and webmention if you edit your template a little
(twitter.com/_/status/522979067277373440)
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kylewm
I'm contemplating changing my permalinks from type/year/month/day/index/slug to just year/month/slug
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GWG
What is index?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "index" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=index
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kylewm
hush Loqi
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Loqi
who, me?
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kylewm
GWG: the index of the post within the day, so if it's the first post of that type that day, it'd be 1
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kylewm
the main tradeoff is that slugs will be meaningful
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kylewm
i mean, they will actually identify the post
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kylewm
currently they are optional
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aaronpk
kind of interesting to see the list of organizations at the 2010 federated social web summit http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/Organisations
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 20 minutes ago: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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aaronpk
!tell tantek person-tagging is a little bit of an itch right now, but will get much itchier as soon as I launch my new "links-to" pages, which show every post on my site that links to e.g. tantek.com
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
fascinating: "I spent a couple hours trying to learn enough javascript to parse JSON to make a nicer tilde.club mobile site for browsing on a phone, but eventually gave up." - http://tilde.club/~mathowie/files/2bd97320fd790f1ed7ae40d1c841858a-24.html
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Loqi
tantek: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 1 minute ago: person-tagging is a little bit of an itch right now, but will get much itchier as soon as I launch my new "links-to" pages, which show every post on my site that links to e.g. tantek.com
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tantek
oops I forgot to not bug aaronpk til after his talk. sorry about that!
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tantek
what is person-tagging
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Loqi
A person tag (AKA people tag) is a special kind of tag that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tag by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card http://indiewebcamp.com/person_tagging
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tantek
I agree with this: "If you have to wade through garbage, the abuse has already happened." from https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/
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@brennannovak
@waxpancake that's what I like most about #indieweb posts. Most ppl post things in that middle range!
(twitter.com/_/status/523021261233225728)
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@kevinmarks
“If you have to wade through garbage, the abuse has already happened.” https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/
(twitter.com/_/status/523036595050401792)
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aaronpk
who wants to send me a vouch!
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joskar
aaronpk: I tried it at least, I've never sent a webmention before :)
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joskar
I hope I did the vouch thing correctly as well...
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joskar
I just realized that I probably screwed that one up, so now you should have gotten a second one.
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KevinMarks_
aaronpk: if we're already linked to by you, isn't a vouch unnecessary?
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tantek
Congrats aaronpk on being done with your talk!
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cweiske
congrats on everyone having woken up from sleep
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aaronpk
Danke!
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tantek
cweiske huh?
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aaronpk
cweiske: es war für mich schwer heute Morgen :-)
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cweiske
I just wanted to give an example of a nonsense congratulation for something that happens automatically
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cweiske
it would have been different if you congratulated to a successful talk
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cweiske
but congratulating to simply finishing
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cweiske
a talk ends when nobody speaks anymore
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cweiske
so it happens automatically
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tantek
cweiske - I see it more like running a race. finishing means you got to the end, which itself is a worthy accomplishment
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cweiske
I'd say it would be accomplishment to not finish a talk
#
cweiske
but you can only verify that at the end of time
#
tantek
perhaps we have different meanings for accomplishment
scor joined the channel
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cweiske
probably
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cweiske
you're us-american
#
cweiske
we definitely have different meanings for accomplishment
#
tantek
anyway - no need to mock what was a friendly congrats.
#
tantek
aaronpk, I do believe you have the first claimed complete implementation of receiving vouches! now someone just needs to send a few to verify.
#
tantek
that's worth noting for /timeline
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aaronpk
Don't add it til we've seen if it works ;-)
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tantek
do we even have a wiki page somewhere for food tracking?!?
#
aaronpk
Something is wrong there... The times don't make sense
#
aaronpk
I was apparently eating in my sleep
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cweiske
prev/next buttons do not work
#
aaronpk
Might have a timezone error on the food import
#
aaronpk
Yes they are disabled on date perma links right now
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tantek
either way, definitely time to create that /food page!
#
tantek
since now we have an IndieWeb Example!
#
aaronpk
I started publishing on Oct 3, and imported the backlog today
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ben_thatmust
aaronpk, I just pushed my code live from yesterday
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cweiske
aaronpk, is map.geoloqi.com down?
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ben_thatmust
completely untested but i should be sending and receiving vouch now
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aaronpk
hmm shouldn't be down, will check in a minute
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aaronpk
ben_thatmust: awesome! If you send me a vouched webmention you should see the vouch URL on the comment!
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ben_thatmust
hmm, let me throw in some logging, make sure it works
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ben_thatmust
aaronpk, am i going to be able to find a vouch URL is the question..
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aaronpk
Use the wiki!
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ben_thatmust
oh, i don't manually submit my vouch, it tries to find it on its own
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ben_thatmust
but we shall see
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ben_thatmust
if it doesn't go through, i'll resubmit via curl
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aaronpk
Oh right
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ben_thatmust
well i clearly broke my webmention sending
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ben_thatmust
not even pulling it out of the queue
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ben_thatmust
or putting it in to the queue for that matter
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ben_thatmust
well then
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ben_thatmust
sent by curl and got 202 back
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aaronpk
Oh shoot I just realized I forgot to restart my background process after the update
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ben_thatmust
i have to go, i'll be back in about an hour
cweiske joined the channel
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aaronpk
Ok it's running
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aaronpk
I didn't see yours come through successfully but I'm ssh'd from my phone so I can't really read the console
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aaronpk
Also I sent myself a bunch of webmentions and I'm not sure why. I should probably disable sending myself webmentions
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cweiske
I did that
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cweiske
to test if you vouch yourself
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aaronpk
oh hah
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aaronpk
Thanks?
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cweiske
do you manually approve webmentions?
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aaronpk
My laptop ran out of battery so I'll have to find a plug at the next break
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aaronpk
No it's all automatic right now
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cweiske
then I wonder why the comments did not show up
#
aaronpk
It is entirely possible that I horribly broke my site
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aaronpk
Need electricity to figure this out
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@danlyke
@gwenners do you have any coding inclination? The http://IndieWebCamp.com folks are thinking about better ways to do this ... @rivenhomewood
(twitter.com/_/status/523103186962239488)
cweiske joined the channel
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aaronpk
whew found an outlet
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aaronpk
ben_thatmust: heh this vouch URL doesn't actually link to your site: https://aaronparecki.com/webmention/AYZfashK
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aaronpk
laurakalbag is giving a plug to Known here!
#
notizblog.org
edited /site-deaths (+161) "added Spreadly"
(view diff)
j12t, shiflett, thierrymarianne and pfefferle joined the channel
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@franatique
Hey #indieweb folks. Do you know of any free and open indie user auth service? Maybe the crowd at #bono14 can help?
(twitter.com/_/status/523118247139639296)
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@ixisio
RT @franatique: Hey #indieweb folks. Do you know of any free and open indie user auth service? Maybe the crowd at #bono14 can help?
(twitter.com/_/status/523118603856773120)
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@aaronpk
@franatique What exactly do you mean "user auth service"? There's https://indieauth.com of course #bono14 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/523119101305036800)
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ben_thatmust
yeah, i saw that, your code doesn't unify http/https
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ben_thatmust
the wiki links to http thats why
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aaronpk
no actually /irc-people links to your wiki user page, not your website!
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ben_thatmust
yes it does
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ben_thatmust
look at my icon
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aaronpk
oh! sneaky
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ben_thatmust
the text links to my user page the icon links to my page
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ben_thatmust
its not me, thats the template
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aaronpk
ok well I found a totally unrelated bug which I am fixing
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ben_thatmust
i resubmitted with http
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ben_thatmust
woah, i got 400
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aaronpk
you posted to an expired endpoint ;)
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aaronpk
yeah yeah give me a sec ;)
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aaronpk
I found a bug
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@aaronpk
@franatique It supports SMS, email (via Persona), and now GPG auth: https://indieauth.com/gpg
(twitter.com/_/status/523122225692418049)
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aaronpk
i'm supposed to check that the vouch links to the source domain without rel=nofollow, right?
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ben_thatmust
i'm probably going to be submitting a bunch since I am testing, sorry
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cweiske
nice idea that hidden iframe to check if web+action works on /indie-config
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aaronpk
cool. realized I had forgotten that part since it's not explicitly mentioned on the vouch page
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aaronpk
cweiske: yeah! that's some neat work going on there! I still haven't quite got my head around it all
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cweiske
that would also solve the discovery problem for my web+fork button
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cweiske
but i'd like to have buttons that work completely without javascript
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cweiske
and use javascript only to discover if the protocol is registered
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aaronpk
if you can figure out a good way to do that it would be a great addition to the wiki page!
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aaronpk
that sounds like a good goal
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cweiske
oh, it's not hard
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cweiske
just use web+action:reply as url
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cweiske
or web+action:favorite
#
cweiske
(and add the url as parameter
#
cweiske
that way, no javascript is involved when the user clicks the link
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cweiske
so no config is needed at all
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cweiske
web+action:config would only be needed for discovery
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cweiske
(in the hidden iframe)
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aaronpk
ben_thatmust: GOT IT
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ben_thatmust
excellent
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ben_thatmust
i'm still finding a bunch of bugs in my code
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aaronpk
so i'm not following the vouch algorithm exactly, because I don't actually want to reject everything right now
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aaronpk
so if you send me a vouch, I will go verify it and reject the mention if I don't approve the vouch, even if I approve your domain
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aaronpk
which is a little weird, but probably fine for now
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aaronpk
i wonder what tantek thinks of that
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ben_thatmust
okay, it looks like i'm sending webmentions again
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ben_thatmust
at least fallback version
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cweiske
the downside of my approach is that the single URL used to handle web+action needs to be a dynamic script
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cweiske
handling config, reply, favorite and other actions
#
cweiske
while the current approach allows different tools to be used for different actions
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ben_thatmust
yeah, cweiske, I need to note on that page the other downside that means you can't use more than one client for different action
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ben_thatmust
you got there
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Loqi
haha
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cweiske
ben_thatmust, one could use a proxy script
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cweiske
that delegates to different tools
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cweiske
I think that not requiring javascript has higher priority
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aaronpk
yeah the handler could be a web page that links out to different tools
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ben_thatmust
okay, now how to instrument this thing correctly... oy
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aaronpk
coding is hard
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cweiske
now I finally have something indie to add to my website and semanticscuttle
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ben_thatmust
well i'm using a modified version of menion-client-php
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aaronpk
cweiske++
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Loqi
cweiske has 15 karma
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aaronpk
oh man, apparently i'm not de-duping webmentions on short URLs
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aaronpk
now there are two of yours because you sent one with the shorturl as the source
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ben_thatmust
yeah, sorry, my automated version sends it as short
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ben_thatmust
wait, did that automated one come with a vouch?
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ben_thatmust
the shorturl one that is
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aaronpk
it did not
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ben_thatmust
didn't expect it to
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ben_thatmust
unless you linked to someone who i have in my list
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cweiske
why web+action and not web+reply, web+favorite, web+bookmark?
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ben_thatmust
my whole vouch list just got overweritten
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Loqi
lolz
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ben_thatmust
helps if i have a where clause on that update
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ben_thatmust
its been happening for a while
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ben_thatmust
i need to go over them all now
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ben_thatmust
none of my links survived
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snarfed
hi guys!
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snarfed
so...vouch.
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snarfed
i've only followed it at a high level. i'm guessing there's no obvious vouch i could send with bridgy wms...? and/or it's maybe too early to implement anything in bridgy?
#
Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message on 10/16 at 6:12pm: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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aaronpk
there probably isn't actually a reasonably vouch you can send, because it would rely on the person you're sending the WM to to have linked to bridgy
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aaronpk
i'm thinking about a different way to handle it though
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snarfed
aaronpk: right, i figured as much.
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snarfed
whitelisting also seems reasonable. it is a bit of a special snowflake
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aaronpk
for the silos that bridgy supports, i might take twitter.com/t and turn it in to t.twitter.com then do the normal approval process
#
ben_thatmust
fore right now i have bridgy whitelisted
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ben_thatmust
so to not deal with it
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aaronpk
but since twitter users can't send a vouch it would basically just prevent replies from people i'm not connected to, which may not actaully be what I want
#
ben_thatmust
i figure i'm not as worried about that case since the silos tend to handle spam on their service
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aaronpk
maybe I can use it to auto-approve or put into a moderation queue or something
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ben_thatmust
twitter might become a problem i suppose
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aaronpk
but right now bridgy is whitelisted
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gRegor`
Morning, indieweb
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ben_thatmust
okay, i have my vouch list rebuilt again
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snarfed
yeah. if the whitelisting works, maybe deprioritize anything more compicated
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snarfed
regardless, thx, answers my q
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snarfed
hey gRegor`
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ben_thatmust
aaronpk, just sent another, but that one should (hopefully have contained a vouch
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ben_thatmust
any luck?
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aaronpk
it didn't have a vouch
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ben_thatmust
i responded to that page specifically because i knew i could find a link to kartik's site there
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aaronpk
wait maybe i looked at the wrong one
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aaronpk
nope no vouch
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ben_thatmust
YES, that time it should have sent the vouch no problem
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ben_thatmust
it was trying to send with a url from your page, since it know about that one
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aaronpk
it sent a vouch
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aaronpk
but it doesn't link to the source because shorturl!
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aaronpk
and I can't follow all redirects on the vouch URL looking for a match
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ben_thatmust
the first thing i do when i receive a webmention is pull that page and use the true URL not the short one
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ben_thatmust
so then all you have to do is look for the short OR the redirected one
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aaronpk
oh man
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aaronpk
no I think your shortener is messing it up
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ben_thatmust
woah, yeah, thats not right
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aaronpk
whatever you send needs to be present on the vouch URL without following any redirects
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ben_thatmust
that will never work in practice
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ben_thatmust
it seems fairly reasonable to assume that if a person has a url shortener they are sending with it
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aaronpk
why wouldn't you just send the canonical URL?
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ben_thatmust
bridgy caused that
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ben_thatmust
in syndication it will use the url sent, if i send the canonical then all posts will have the canonical not the short
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aaronpk
is this because bridgy publish?
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aaronpk
i think that should be changed, not the vouch algorithm
#
aaronpk
because bridgy publish is kind of a weird overloading of webmention
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ben_thatmust
its not the vouch algorith, thats basic webmention, if someone sends you a short url you should be testing for its redirect first
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ben_thatmust
you have to pull the page anyway
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aaronpk
for example bridgy publish could parse your mf2 looking for a shorturl property
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ben_thatmust
why not just check the resolved url
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ben_thatmust
it could, but then it doesn't have an indicator of if you want short or canonical
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ben_thatmust
it just assumes?
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aaronpk
presumably it's a safe assumption to use shorturl if present?
#
aaronpk
anyway I don't think that should be affecting this discussion
#
aaronpk
I would rather leave out any artifacts of how bridgy publish works when considering this
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ben_thatmust
okay, but basically your method says that you have to send the canonical URL, or actually, you have to send the exact url that is mentioned on a site
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ben_thatmust
i'm saying if they refer to the canonical I don't think sending a shortURL is unreasonable. You HAVE to resolve the page as part of the webmention process
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ben_thatmust
to make sure my post even has a reference to yours
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aaronpk
right now my implementation looks for a string match of the source value in the HTML of the vouch page
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tantek
the source *domain*
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aaronpk
agh yes
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aaronpk
( that was my bug earlier ;) )
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tantek
which I think is a reasonable requirement
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aaronpk
ben is saying I should be looking for a string match of the fully-resolved source URL, in the case that the source URL given sends a 301
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tantek
I think that's backwards
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ben_thatmust
i send all my webmentions with short URLS, which is fine for standard webmention, since the last step does source -> target
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ben_thatmust
implicitly you resolve
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tantek
because it's more likely that the vouch may be "old" and hence refer to and older URL of yours
#
tantek
s/and older/an older
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: because it's more likely that the vouch may be "old" and hence refer to an older URL of yours
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ben_thatmust
canonical vs redirect.. either one could be older
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ben_thatmust
its just what they entered at the time
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tantek
disagreed, you control what you send in the webmention, you don't control what the vouch has on its page
#
tantek
"what you send" is present
#
tantek
vouch page is in the past
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ben_thatmust
okay, i can agree with that
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ben_thatmust
interestingly that could make it possible for me to send vouches that have their own internal redirects, t.co for example (if i figure out some way to track the URL used on the vouch page)
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ben_thatmust
not sure why it sent the wrong version of the URL anyway, that was pretty messy
#
www.flutterby.net user:danlyke
edited /User:Www.flutterby.net_user:danlyke (+454) "Evolving a personal involvement motivation statement"
(view diff)
#
@mirrorkill
http://indiewebcamp.com/ RT @NickMargerrison Social media is a bridge. Use it to reach people but don't build a house on.. #myspace #twitter
(twitter.com/_/status/523146995629043712)
#
tantek
aaronpk what I think of what? reject unapproved vouches?
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aaronpk
no, my pseudo-implementation
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tantek
you shouldn't bother checking the vouch if you already approved the source
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aaronpk
i'm not following the flowchart exactly right now for testing purposes and to not reject all vouch-less mentions
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aaronpk
so if you send a vouch at all I run it through the vouch flow
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tantek
for testing purposes? I guess that makes sense?
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aaronpk
at some point I'll switch out of testing mode, but probably not for a while
#
aaronpk
like until there are at least several other vouch sending implementations
#
tantek
snarfed - re: bridgy and vouch - I think we assumed any "approval" algorithm would whitelist bridgy
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tantek
re: bridgy being weird overloading of webmention - rather bridgy is a legitimate webmention spoofer
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aaronpk
bridgy publish
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aaronpk
(yes bridgy is a legitimate webmention spoofer but that's not what I was referring to)
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tantek
oh right - yeah that is a bit odd use of webmention
#
tantek
bridgy BAAS is a legitimate webmention spoofer - that's the actual challenge we have to solve IMO
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tantek
I agree with "leave out any artifacts of how bridgy publish works when considering this"
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danlyke
So I like what it's enabling, but Bridgy seems to me to be, by definition, an intermediate step that we hope to deprecate. So can be treated as a special case for now.
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ben_thatmust
aaronpk tried again, this time it should be sending canonical
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tantek
danlyke - we can think of all of POSSE as an intermediate step that we hope to deprecate
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aaronpk
it sent the same value for target and vouch!
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tantek
as we can assume that all silos will likely die in 10-15 years
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ben_thatmust
oh, hah, its because it sees that there is a link on your site, its outsmarting me
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ben_thatmust
you should be a good vouch for youself damnit
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ben_thatmust
there, i deleted that entry and resent
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ben_thatmust
next time that link is clicked it will pick it up again
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aaronpk
now you got the werid source in there
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danlyke
tantek, maybe, I still see POSSE as the mechanism for commenting and likes, but Bridgy is about enabling non-cooperative sites, no?
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ben_thatmust
what the hell
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ben_thatmust
the source has the index= junk
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ben_thatmust
that should only ever be doing that when it hits my htaccess thats how it rewrites to the code
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ben_thatmust
i used the same exact code though... so weird, it should have that cached
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tfontaine
Isn't portal.zimbra drupal based?
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tfontaine
whoops :)
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tantek
danlyke - when all sites are either indie or support webmention directly, there's no more need for POSSE.
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tantek
for comments, likes, anything. POSSE and backfeed are about enabling non-cooperative sites in general. Bridgy is BAAS (backfeed as a service), and Bridgy Publish is PAAS (POSSE as a service).
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danlyke
tantek ah, I have been interpreting Webmention as an implementation of POSSE.
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cweiske
now I remember again why I didn't use the hidden iframe route for web+fork with phorkie: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2014-10-17%20chromium%2034%20iframe%20web%2Baction%20request.png
#
cweiske
chromium 34 opens a popup whenever an unregistered url is opened
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ben_thatmust
okay, aaronpk, i know i sent it right this time, i checked the payload just before curl sent it
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tantek
cweiske that's why we use promises to complete the web+action URL resolution
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cweiske
tantek, no
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cweiske
I get the same with the promise
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tantek
o rly
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cweiske
tried both with and without promise
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tantek
please share exactly what you're doing to cause that with voxpelli
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tantek
because when he did it it worked in Chrome and Firefox - no popups/alerts
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ben_thatmust
the promises bit was definitely something i had wanted to get working at IWC
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tantek
I'm still working on getting it working myself.
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tantek
ben_thatmust: you and me both
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tantek
I decided it was more important to refine vouch
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ben_thatmust
all my links edit, delete, repost links have been marked up for it
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ben_thatmust
just don't have it working yet :)
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tantek
I need to retry with voxpelli's latest instructions
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ben_thatmust
oh, i remembered something else i didn't bring up at IWC, if you are logged in to my site, you get an EDIT / delete link on your own comments
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tantek
cweiske: I'll let you know my results when I get it implemented
#
tantek
appreciate the heads-up
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tantek
ben_thatmust++ whoa that's an awesome use-case for IndieAuth consumption!
#
Loqi
ben_thatmust has 2 karma
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ben_thatmust
well, pending aaronpk's confirmation, i am sending webmention + vouch automatically now
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tantek
or rather Web Sign-in in general
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cweiske
tantek, maybe newer versions of chrome behave differently
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ben_thatmust
obviously it requires that the user's MP endoint support edit/ delete, which there aren't many
#
www.flutterby.net user:danlyke
created /UTF-8 (+276) "Created page with "UTF-8 is a way to encode Unicode characters in variable number of bits per character. Although it allows for the millions of characters that Unicode can support, UTF-8 encoded t...""
(view diff)
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tantek
cweiske - I take your word for it, I'm going to try implementing and document my results with specific browser versions.
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tantek
ben_thatmust: in that case why not go all the way and *creating* comments? (via MP - since the "create" verb is what folks already supporting MP support)
#
ben_thatmust
good point I really should have that
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ben_thatmust
i want to button up vouch first
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ben_thatmust
need to practice what i preach on the 'search for a whitelist' part
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tantek
ben_thatmust: does this comment editing UI require that the user give your website MP permissions to fully create/edit/delete posts on their own site?
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aaronpk
I see it there!
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aaronpk
Check my /mentions page! It's at the top
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ben_thatmust
tantek, currently I only ask for post access, and obviously its web-action so they should ideally be directing back to their own site
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ben_thatmust
i need to go through what access it requests
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ben_thatmust
don't know why it has my name twice aaronpk
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aaronpk
Yeah I saw that
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aaronpk
So you have two name properties?
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ben_thatmust
really needs to review all his markup
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aaronpk
Check it in the pin13 parser really quick
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ben_thatmust
i copied it from sempress, it has both mf and mf2 classes on it
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ben_thatmust
so it should have class='name p-name'
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aaronpk
Well anyway we got it to work!
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tantek
is this the first webmention+vouch comment sent to a webmention+vouch receiver and verifier?
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gRegor`
I think there's still some bugs in php-mf2 wrt de-duping legacy mf from mf2
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tantek.com
edited /sign-in-use-cases (+905) "split commenting into inline commenting UI vs. local comments"
(view diff)
#
ben_thatmust
oh, and for the UI, no, it will display either way, if they route to my MP client, it will ask then there
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ben_thatmust
its not done inline at the moment
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aaronpk
Oy, I need an option to load only the last few lines of irc in the logs. The page is so big it won't load on this terrible Internet connection
#
aaronpk
tantek: this is related to the thing I mentioned about my implementation not following the algorithm exactly
#
aaronpk
Since ben's site already passes my source approval, he would have no way of testing sending vouched webmentions to me cause it would always ignore the vouch
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aaronpk
So instead I always test the vouch URL if present
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tantek
that's a nice UI touch
#
tantek
might be a good "should" to help promote vouch awareness
#
tantek
as a differentiator from pingback
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aaronpk
Showing "vouched for by ____"?
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aaronpk
I should maybe link the word "vouched" to the wiki page
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snarfed
PSA for anyone looking for a name/domain for their indieweb project: want granary.io? i was going to use it, but i probably won't any more
#
snarfed
(the conceptual pun is, silos *hold* grain, granaries *distribute* it)
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gRegor`
Hiyoooo
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gRegor`
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 48 karma
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tantek.com
edited /Vouch (+1228) "why, how to, IndieWeb Examples"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - sure, linking "vouched" to /Vouch makes sense as a useful teachability point, and I just made /Vouch more approachable as well (improved summary, ToC, new Why section, and How to)
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gregorlove.com
edited /UTF-8 (+27) "stub, dfn"
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gregorlove.com
created /utf8 (+19) "r"
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tantek
aaronpk - re: checking valid URLness of vouch URL - I think that ought to be done at the same time as the others. since validity check should be super-cheap computationally (zero IO), clustering it makes sense.
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tantek
rather than assumed to be part of "approve vouch?" step
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aaronpk
I wonder if it makes sense for current implementors to do it the way I have and always verify vouches even if the source is approved, just so there are more testable implementations
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tantek.com
edited /Vouch (+35) "/* Flow Chart */ check vouch validity if present same time as URL validity for other params"
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tantek
aaronpk , sure I'll quickly write it up as an option
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tantek
async only right?
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aaronpk
Well I in general only like doing that kind of thing async so yes
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tantek
right, I'll only document this because you walked the walk first.
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aaronpk
Oh also if you send me an un-vouched webmention from a source I don't approve, you get a nice warning message saying I might not accept this unvouched in the ear future and link to the wiki
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ben_thatmust
yay, okay now i check all rel=me links within the same domain too
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ben_thatmust
when searching for someone i can use as a vouch
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ben_thatmust
that way if someone links to a contacts page, or whitelist page, like i do, i can easily find them that way
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aaronpk
I don't understand all this magic you're doing yet ;-)
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aaronpk
But I did start logging referers
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tantek.com
edited /Vouch (+679) "/* How To */ Webmention with Vouch testing support (without rel=nofollow)"
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ben_thatmust
haha, its not bad
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tantek.com
edited /Vouch (+35) "/* Aaron Parecki */ Webmention with Vouch testing (unvouched warning option)"
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aaronpk
Sweet thanks
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tantek
noted your warning option too - though I'd expect others to 449 that path
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aaronpk
Again that's temporary until there are more sending implementations
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tantek
hence " in the near future. "
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ben_thatmust
so given a URL, X, that i am responding to, and a list of referrers to me, R, (that i verified are good and don't use rel=nofollow), download page X and search for all links without rel=nofollow. for each of those, check them against my list R, if R(X) returns a value, i'm done. if none are found, i move on to checking the base domain. and repeat. if still none are found, i look for all rel=me links that are on in the
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ben_thatmust
domain, and repeat (the idea being to find internal rel=me links to /about /contacts /whitelist etc)
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tantek
like aaronpk, I'm not totally following ben_thatmust
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aaronpk
Once there are a couple examples of easy vouch sending implementations then I'll switch it
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tantek
sounds like something you could document on your project documentation wiki page?
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tantek
what is food?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "food" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=food
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^ since you implemented first ;)
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aaronpk
About to sit down for dinner, so possibly later tonight
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tantek
so you're going to do food, then write about it. ok that's fair ;)
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aaronpk
I will even use it as the linked example ;-)
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aaronpk
Tho it may be in German
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tantek
aaronpk - still working on timezone issues for food posts? http://aaronparecki.com/2014/01/01 shows you eating in your sleep
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aaronpk
Indeed. Didn't get to check that out yet
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Postly (+36) "now sending webmentions with vouch!"
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tantek
ben_thatmust: that reads like you receive vouches too ;)
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gRegor`
What is noms?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "noms" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=noms
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ben_thatmust
i do (i think)
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ben_thatmust
but untested yet
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tantek.com
created /noms (+18) "r"
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tantek.com
created /nom (+18) "r"
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gRegor`
:)
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tantek
oops that's wrong
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aaronpk
Ah crap it's an am/pm thing
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aaronpk
Ohhh because there's something at 12am
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ben_thatmust
noms? isn't that french for names?
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ben_thatmust
hate that 12am / 12pm thing, always gets me
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ben_thatmust
thats why i use 12:00 / 24:00
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tantek.com
edited /nom (+177) "actually, a nom is a thing"
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aaronpk
or 0:00
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tantek.com
edited /noms (-1) "r nom"
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ben_thatmust
japan would show open times like 08:00 - 26:00
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tantek
ben_thatmust: I have photos posted of that somewhere
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ben_thatmust
because day wrapping could confuse between 12/24 hour
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ben_thatmust
as they switch back and forth
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aaronpk
Problem is my source data is kind of messy
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aaronpk
I should post a screenshot of it
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aaronpk
I'm also not super happy with the food posts on my site, they take up a lot of space
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aaronpk
I want to make them way smaller somehow
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gRegor`
diet-food posts ;)
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tantek
aaronpk - you can apply post clustering to adjacent posts of the same type in a stream
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aaronpk
That helps a little
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tantek
that's what FB does
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aaronpk
Still want to show the dates of each
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tantek
you mean times
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aaronpk
Hm need to see an example of that from FB
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aaronpk
Yes times
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tantek
which works well on a horizontal clustering
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tantek
it's called a timeline
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KevinMarks_
with brid.gy and vouch, would the idea be to see if you follow them on twitter?
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tantek
KevinMarks: need context
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aaronpk
KevinMarks_: yes that was my thought
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aaronpk
Or whether I've tweeted at them actually
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KevinMarks_
reading scrollback, aaron said he would whitelist brid.gy, but I recall tantek sayign that his queued brid.gy webmentions were spammy
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tantek.com
edited /Vouch (+39) "/* Ben Roberts */ postly, domain"
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tantek
KevinMarks: true! however I realized in discussions last weekend that those spams were manual, not automated
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KevinMarks_
I'm not sure twitter has crawlable evidence for follows any more
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tantek
thus not the use-case that vouch is solving
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tantek
so it means I need to implement block on my end
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aaronpk
I've definitely gotten spam tweets before
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KevinMarks_
right, but that is a possible extension of vouch's utility - to provide a filter for the @ reply problems that twitter has that gamergate is demonstrating
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aaronpk
But probably not enough to go through the trouble yet
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aaronpk
And the spam accounts are usually deleted quickly, but not before Bridgy sends them to me and they show up on my site
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tantek
KevinMarks: gamergate is not automated. not the use-case that vouch solves.
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tantek
see /block for solving gamergate abuse/harrasment
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kylewm
how do you distinguish automated spam botnets from a thousand people searching on a hashtag and replying with a link to a youtube video that will "explain everything"
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kylewm
seems like the same use-case
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KevinMarks_
right, I think vouch can protect for that too
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@PoobumHeadface
@ElizaBarr @kevinmarks @Nopeinator Be honest Eliza, what's the word for people who buy media spin hook, line and sinker?
(twitter.com/_/status/522635759568703488)
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tantek
aaronpk - opening hours sign in Japan with times til 25:00 and 24:30: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/23526204/in/datetaken/
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Postly (+1315) "first pass at explaining my algorithm for vouch"
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ben_thatmust
you guys will have me for that one i'm sure
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ben_thatmust
s/have/hate/
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Loqi
ben_thatmust meant to say: you guys will hate me for that one i'm sure
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cweiske
chrome on linux uses xdg-open for protocols it does not understand
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KevinMarks
Block is defined in silo terms because they don't filter by default, or rather have stopped doing so
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tantek
KevinMarks: nope. /Flickr still gets /block right
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tantek
Block is defined in silo terms because they invented it
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tantek
speaking of ...
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+202) "/* Silo Innovations */ block - Flickr 2005-07-27"
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tantek
this is really good explanation of block, how it should work, and responding to people who complain about being blocked: https://www.flickr.com/help/contacts/#96 (also cited in the above edit)
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KevinMarks_
I think you're missing my point a bit. Thsisi what I wrote about int that twitter post - the notification cascade problem
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KevinMarks_
vouch has the potential to dampen it down
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tantek
yes, secondary side-effect
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tantek
very much deliberate
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tantek
the other aspect is a bit of a social / psych hack
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@kevinmarks
“If you have to wade through garbage, the abuse has already happened.” https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/
(twitter.com/_/status/523036595050401792)
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tantek
gamergate / troll types are also the type that take offense at being asked to prove themselves in any way, e.g. that someone would "vouch" for them, and thus are unlikely to bother with doing so, purely stopped by their own ego.
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tantek
hah - KevinMarks - I quoted that exact quote here in the channel before you tweeted it ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-17#t1413532469438
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ShaneHudson
Did silos really invent block? I used both forums and I think some IRC clients quite a while ago (early 2000s) that had blocking or at least ignoring.
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KevinMarks_
right, though that was the "mena kids" thing that set of Kathy's first bout of harrassment
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KevinMarks_
I know you did tantek
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tantek
ShaneHudson - if you can find citations / descriptions, please write them up!
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tantek
IRC clients have /ignore
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ShaneHudson
tantek: Okay, I'm off out now but will try to later
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danlyke
ShaneHudson killfiles have been around in NNTP clients since the beginning of time.
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tantek
killfile is more of a filter
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tantek
than block
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tantek
but yes, killfiles are a predecessor
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ShaneHudson
I never did use Usenet. Bit of a shame really, read a lot of the archives :)
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kylewm
hackernews has a weird block
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tantek
feel free to add more research to http://indiewebcamp.com/block
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ShaneHudson
I only read hackernews through the twitter bot, absolutely abhore the typical comments
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kylewm
i stay far away from it, ShaneHudson, but they have a sort of global ban where you don't know youre banned and don't know no one cansee your comments
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gRegor`
!tell snarfed it's been a couple weeks. Ready for another bridgy issue? ;) http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/10/17/1/ and subsequent notes in the thread say "No post links found" for twitter replies
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bear
the irc mods at twit have implemented a hush feature - it blocks any user from posting but they don't know they have been hushed and only admins can see what they post
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tantek
what is hush?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "hush" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=hush
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bear
it allows them to silence trolls in a way that blocking doesn't - because they don't then start hopping ip's to get around the ban
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gRegor`
That's brilliant
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finchd
and easy to implement in your IRC server
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bear
i'll add it and then add a reference to /block
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bear
yea, it's a custom irc module they have written
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reedstrm
ShaneHudson: there's still remnants of usernet out thre, if you know where to look ...
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reedstrm
Ah, I see you've already discuss 'plonk' yeah, the usenet 'block at client w/ a killfile' had that affect - you didnt' know your audience had walked away, hence the invention of 'plonk!' to let them know. Really bad for to say 'plonk' then later respond to the individualin question :-)
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reedstrm
should clean of point of view in that sentence - I think it switched 3 times!
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reedstrm
s/for to say/form to say/
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bear
oh - it's called shun not hush
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tantek
what is shun?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "shun" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=shun
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bear.im
created /shun (+369) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>Shun is a custom module added to TWiT's IRC server to allow a moderator to silence a user to the group but not have any indication of the silence for that user<...""
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kylewm
aw i like hush better :)
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tantek
bear - note /dfn - put <dfn> around *just* the term, not the whole definition
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bear.im
edited /shun (+1)
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ben_thatmust
only problem being the only one sending vouches, is i can't test receiving really
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bear.im
edited /shun (+0)
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bear
oh - so the ''' bit is not needed either
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bear.im
edited /shun (-6)
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tantek
the ''' bit is stylistic
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kylewm
happy to send you vouches via curl, ben_thatmustbeme
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bear
yea, i've been reading gRegor` 's edits to try and improve my additions
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bear.im
edited /block (+11) "add shun to the see also list"
(view diff)
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kylewm
bear: are the TWiT channels not (publicly) logged then?
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gRegor`
The first use of the term should be in a <dfn>, or optionally, use an explicit p-summary around what Loqi should respond with. Latter is usually not necessary
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Loqi
yeah!
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tantek
what is TWiT?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "TWiT" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=TWiT
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bear
kylewm - not logged at all publicly
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bear
they would be a source of abuse if logged online
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kylewm
bear: makes sense, and shun kind of seems to depend on that
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ben_thatmustbe__
TWiT : this week in tech twit.tv not really something we need on the wiki i don't believe
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gRegor`
realizes he should read back before commenting :)
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kylewm.com
edited /StatusNet (+0) "fix double redirect"
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kylewm.com
edited /StatusNet (+0) "try again..."
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bear.im
edited /shun (+19) "add link to TWiT"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbe__
kylewm send away. should prove interesting
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ben_thatmustbe__
of course you are already in my whitelist
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tantek.com
created /GNU_Social (+24) "r"
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kylewm
<b>Parse error</b>: syntax error, unexpected '.' in <b>/home/thatmust/public_html/ben/blog/model/webmention/queue.php</b> on line <b>8</b><br />
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tantek.com
edited /GNU_social (-21) "no need to double-cite"
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ben_thatmustbe__
DOH
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ben_thatmustbe__
kylewm that should fix it
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kylewm.com
edited /GNU_social (-55) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ not broken anymore"
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbe__: sent! got a 202, and it says i am queued
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KevinMarks
Er could have a page for TWiT, but only if Leo signs in to the wiki, which he could with Leoville.net
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bear
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 70 karma
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ben_thatmustbe__
kylewm, didn't get the vouch unfortunately, darn
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tantek.com
edited /GNU_social (+102) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ mattl.io seems to work, note founder"
(view diff)
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbe__: did i send it righT? https://gist.github.com/kylewm/93e2e0bbe781e777a8d1
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kylewm
also the status page still says queued, should it return 449 or something?
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ben_thatmustbe__
doh, on the whitelist, let me try removing you for that first
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tantek
on topic: hey nice microformats markup parsed result! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://mattl.io/notice/2844 - GNU social supports h-entry h-card
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mattl
tantek: ++
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tantek
mattl - feel free to add your site and GNU social to the top of this list: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Examples_in_the_wild
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mattl
tantek: can you add for me? On GPRS and mobile.
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squeakytoy
scrathes his head
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squeakytoy
I have an idea, but its outside indiewebcamp's core principles. But its kinda cool :S
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squeakytoy
is there a good source/forum/reddit where I can post an idea to get feedback? any recommendations?
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squeakytoy
well, I should say its close to windiewebcamp's principles, but just another idea
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kylewm
try us, squeakytoy :)
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mattl
just don't call us windiewebcamp ;)
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squeakytoy
well, basically, the idea is that, lets say all your public data is stored in a single (common and well defined structured) .json file you control. You can store this file wherever you want, for example in dropbox.
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squeakytoy
but that fail contains, tweet-ish messages, your public photo-albums, etc, etc
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reedstrm
hehe - Freudian slip, much? fail -> file
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reedstrm
squeakytoy: the actualy data, or lots-o-pointers?
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reedstrm
s/actually/actual/
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reedstrm
awww, no Loqi edit love
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Loqi
who, me?
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reedstrm
Ah, cause I failed at regex
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squeakytoy
and then there will be different services 1) Viewers, that can read in those .json files and present your profile in a neat way 2) organizations/companies that help internet-newbies to create, maintain and host their own .json file
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squeakytoy
am i explaining this poorly?
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fiatjaf
please proceed
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snarfed
squeakytoy: sounds similar to http://asheville.io/
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Loqi
snarfed: gRegor` left you a message 55 minutes ago: it's been a couple weeks. Ready for another bridgy issue? ;) http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/10/17/1/ and subsequent notes in the thread say "No post links found" for twitter replies
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reedstrm
Seems like a 'one format to rule them all' sort of suggestion, but ...
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squeakytoy
so, for an advanced user they can host and maintain their own public file, for new internet users they can find a free or commercial provider
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squeakytoy
reedstrm, yea
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kylewm
squeakytoy: also kind of like transmat.io?
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squeakytoy
reedstrm, like RSS
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squeakytoy
will check those links
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snarfed
gRegor`: ugh, sorry. :/ looking
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kylewm
squeakytoy: how would you scale JSON to a very very large file?
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fiatjaf
sounds more like remotestorage
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snarfed
(no kylewm don't do it! :P)
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squeakytoy
kylewm, you can either link to other web resources in your "main" json-file, or have one huge json-file
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reedstrm
Ashville's PESSO support, looks like.
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kylewm
I know there are SAX-type readers for JSON where you don't have to read the whole thing into memory to parse it, but that seems like the exception more than the rule
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squeakytoy
kylewm, for example, squeakytoy.json might be the main file, but inside point to sqeakytoy.tweets.json for my tweets, etc, etc, for albms, CV, etc
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snarfed
gRegor`: looks like it sent them all to me…? https://www.brid.gy/twitter/gRegorLove
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fiatjaf
if you have a lot of "linked" files it starts to become more like a database, or a complex filesystem no one can maintain
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squeakytoy
fiatjaf, "who" cant maintain? and it will not become a database, it will become a web :-)
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gRegor`
snarfed: Oh, cool. Guess it was lagged?
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fiatjaf
it is not a problem if there is some software helping the maintenance
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gRegor`
Those replies were showing up on the page, but "No post link found" instead of the sent wm
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snarfed
gRegor`: ah, yeah. bridgy only refetches syndication links every 2h, so it may have been that
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tantek
"a lot of linked files" - sounds like hypertext
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fiatjaf
I like the idea, but it needs some criticism
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fiatjaf
isn't this JSON-LD?
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squeakytoy
yea, i guess its similar to that
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snarfed
is embarrased that he still doesn't really know what json-ld is
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snarfed
finds a whitepaper to d/l
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tfontaine
what is json-ld
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "json-ld" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=json-ld
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tfontaine
Sorry, snarfed. I tried. ;)
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squeakytoy
so, everyone in here, we just need to agree on a common way to structure up our .json files, then we can create an open social web :-)
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kylewm
"just"
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squeakytoy
it would be decentralized, and we would own our own data
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fiatjaf
remotestorage has "modules", I think
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squeakytoy
and anyone can write viewers to browse around profiles and content
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bear
their is already a common format that allows for federated linking - html behind known urls
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kylewm
bear++
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Loqi
bear has 39 karma
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bear
how that html gets generated is going to be a conversation that never gets old in indieweb land
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snarfed
bear, squeakytoy: and it even has a (mild) json schema. e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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fiatjaf
those "modules" are data models about common things, what attributes these things must contain and helpers for displaying, listing and adding more things
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fiatjaf
(I don't know exactly)
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squeakytoy
yupp yupp
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fiatjaf
so various applications can reuse the modules templates and the uniformized data of various users
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squeakytoy
so, is it worth exploring the idea?
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fiatjaf
and show/edit the data the way they want
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bear
one thing to remember and realize is to avoid going down the rabbit whole of architecture too deep without having paused to implement the ideas
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fiatjaf
what is remotestorage
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "remotestorage" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=remotestorage
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bear
s/whole/hole/
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Loqi
bear meant to say: one thing to remember and realize is to avoid going down the rabbit hole of architecture too deep without having paused to implement the ideas
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gRegor`
JSON-L(EA)D: JSON, but heavier
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squeakytoy
okay then..
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Mark87
squeakytoy we're big on experimenting here, its worth a shot
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squeakytoy
is there a more structure way to get a discussion?
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snarfed
squeakytoy: we'd encourage you to try out the existing mf2 schema before inventing your own
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bear
squeakytoy - I would suggest finding the core bit of your idea, getting some code written to generate html pages with mf2 in place and then exploring
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snarfed
bear++
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Loqi
bear has 40 karma
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fiatjaf
squeakytoy: I would like it if it gained mass adoption, but I think it is difficult that it will happen, but I think you could join the remotestorage effort, about which I don't know anything else, look at the modules they have: https://github.com/remotestorage/modules/tree/master/src
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gRegor`
squeakytoy: IRC is the primary mode of communication, rather than getting bogged down in mailing lists or forums.
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bear
if you find something with mf2 + html that is preventing a feature, then *that* is a great time to explore new options
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snarfed
squeakytoy: there are mf2 parsers in most language that will convert mf2 html to json, if you really want json
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gRegor`
(For indiewebcamp, that is)
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ben_thatmustbe__
kylewm, that worked but it parsed it as a mention, which aren't displayed at the moment
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bear
our structured discussions are IRC with links to the indiewebcamp wiki for long form discussions and archiving of thoughts
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kylewm
squeakytoy: fiatjaf: be wary of any idea that will only be interesting if it achieves mass adoption : http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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squeakytoy
i was just curious
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gRegor`
That and documenting our experience on the wiki. Have you logged in to the wiki, squeakytoy? You could document your ideas/experience on your User: page
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bear
squeakytoy - curiousity is very much welcome - apologies if all of us responding is a bit overwhelming
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bear
we are all excited to hear about new ideas
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gRegor`
Totally!
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squeakytoy
yea, but isnt really aligned to indiewebcamp
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bear
like any community that is growing we have to be careful of how we great new folks :)
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squeakytoy
or its principles
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbe__: why did it parse as a mention and not a reply?
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fiatjaf
it is aligned
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gRegor`
If it's about owning your data, it seems pretty inline
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fiatjaf
I think
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squeakytoy
but it isnt about microformats, etc, etc
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ben_thatmustbe__
not sure, actually when i parsed as mention it had all kinds of issue
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fiatjaf
kylewm: I read that, I am aware (since I read)
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tantek.com
created /json-ld (+205) "stub with dfn, see article"
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tantek.com
moved /json-ld to /JSON-LD "ALL CAPS"
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bear
indieweb uses mf2 as a primary way of exchanging data but at it's core it's about owning your message - so if you decide to implement your site with no mf2, so be it
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Mark87
squeakytoy its been my experience that until somebody has something else working on their own site usig something other than microformats, no one will be very excited about it
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bear
but, IMO, once you start trying to share info/ideas with others, then mf2 will become very useful
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squeakytoy
okay, but to have a page to get a discussion/feedback, is the user-page on wiki the best place?
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squeakytoy
or.. should i start a reddit, or
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bear
right, maybe mf2 isn't needed for your site, but we are a dogfood community and really prefer someone who is making a point about something to show how they implemented it
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bear
your user page would be a great start
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bear
as would a project page where you can state your goals and what features are implemented
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gRegor`
Yeah, a lot of us have dedicated project pages on the wiki. Like /Falcon and /p3k
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gRegor`
What is Falcon?
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gRegor`
What is p3k?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "p3k" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=p3k
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gRegor`
uh
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gRegor`
stopwords
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tantek
squeakytoy: I'm curious, what on http://indiewebcamp.com/principles do you feel you're not really aligned to? (note that "microformats" is not even mentioned on that page)
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gregorlove.com
created /peek (+17) "r"
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gRegor`
What is peek?
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Loqi
pзk (pronounced "peek") is the name of the software that runs aaronparecki.com and caseorganic.com http://indiewebcamp.com/peek
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gRegor`
boom
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gregorlove.com
edited /Falcon (+31) "trying explicit p-summary"
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fiatjaf
who created mf2?
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bear
squeakytoy - first you will need to follow some of the steps in http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+44) "explicit p-summary"
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ben_thatmustbe__
kylewm, i'm use using aaronpk's php-comments
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squeakytoy
ill look into it tomorrow, need zzzZzzzZzzz now tho :-)
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ben_thatmustbe__
it gets no author data, and thinks its a mention
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squeakytoy
thanks all and good night
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Loqi
sleep tight!
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tantek.com
created /mf2 (+27) "r"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
fiatjaf: Mostly through gathering examples on the microformats.org wiki and mailing list over the years.
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gRegor`
Not sure the core group of people that "started" it
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbe__: oh that's interesting! it's because it can't find the author, not because it's a p-in-reply-to h-cite?
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fiatjaf
what is the difference between indieauth and web sign-in?
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gRegor`
Night, squeakytoy!
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "the difference between indieauth and web sign-in" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+difference+between+indieauth+and+web+sign-in
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bear
what is indieauth
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Loqi
IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth
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fiatjaf
which providers work with indieauth? do they need to implement something, or is just a bad magic that the indieauth server does without they even knowing about?
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tantek
fiatjaf - originally I proposed we consider doing a major update to microformats, called microformats2, on 2010-05-02 at Foo East http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2010-05-02-microformats-2-0
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tantek
and then have developed / edit it since.
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fiatjaf
bear: so indieauth is an openid provider that uses web sign-in?
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tantek
fiatjaf: that is a true statement but limiting
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tantek
indieauth is an implementation of web sign-in and additional sign-in methods (TOTP, Persona, GPG)
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ben_thatmustbe__
maybe someone else can help explain whats going on here https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/10/17/1/this-explanation-makes-me-think-totpre
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gregorlove.com
edited /microformats2 (+158) "dfn + sentence, See Also section"
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tantek.com
edited /IndieAuth (+104) "more dfn"
(view diff)
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fiatjaf
right, thank you, tantek
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fiatjaf
what happens to the indieweb principles if the government, or someone else, starts stealing the domains from people? is that a possibility?
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fiatjaf
what is web sign-in
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "web sign-in" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=web+sign-in
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gRegor`
ben_thatmust: What do you mean?
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tantek
fiatjaf: yes indieweb depends on DNS, as does the internet as a whole
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tantek
what is DNS?
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Loqi
DNS is an abbreviation for Domain Name Server and often used to refer to the configuring thereof http://indiewebcamp.com/DNS
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tantek.com
edited /microformats2 (+621) "Background"
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ben_thatmust
gRegor` php-comments parses that as a mention, with no author data at all
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tantek
fiatjaf: note that that has already happened: "government, or someone else, starts stealing the domains from people" https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/11/us-government-seizes-82-websites-draconian-future
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gRegor`
Ah. I'd have to look at php-comments closer
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tantek
fiatjaf: more: someone wrote a Firefox add-on to "undo" this damage, and Mozilla was asked to remove it, but refused: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/05/mozilla-resists-us-govt-request-to-nuke-mafiaafire-add-on/
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tantek
if anyone thinks that's worthy of documenting, feel free to add it to /DNS perhaps in a vulnerability section
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tantek.com
edited /microformats2 (+86) "/* Background */ along with simplification proposals"
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tantek
bear++ for really good, considerate replies to squeakytoy
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Loqi
bear has 41 karma
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cweiske
voxpelli, the reply button on your site does not seem to work with webactions
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tantek.com
edited /IndieAuth (+24) "linky linky"
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cweiske
I tried to set some breakpoints, but it does not even try to run loadIndieConfig()
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbe__: aaronpk's site was able to parse my reply to this post ... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/16/4/originalhipster
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loic_m
question: do I have to only add the rel="me" links on my web page (or it can work too if there're also on the other pages)?
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ben_thatmust
looks like i'll be fixing php-comments
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aaronpk
loic_m: you need to add the rel-me links from the page you are using as your identity, usually your home page
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aaronpk
ben_thatmust: what's wrong with php-comments?
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loic_m
aaronpk> ok, so it's better to only have them on one page (the one I want to use for my identity)
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aaronpk
not sure why you'd want them on more than one page, but it won't hurt anything. rel=me is just saying that this other page represents the same person
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gRegor`
loic_m: I use <link rel=me> so it appears on all my pages currently, but only because I'm using a single HTML header file.
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loic_m
it's just that my publishing tool (homemade) don't allow me to have a specific header at the moment ;)
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gRegor`
Shouldn't cause any problems
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loic_m
it's the same on every pages :)
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ben_thatmust
aaronpk, https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/10/17/1/this-explanation-makes-me-think-totp gets parsed as a mention, not reply, no author data
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aaronpk
it won't hurt anything
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loic_m
ok ok
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loic_m
great
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aaronpk
ben_thatmust: oh I think I might not have added support for that much nesting of things
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aaronpk
in-reply-to in your case is an h-cite object. I may only have made it work when it's a URL
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aaronpk
pull requests welcome :D
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aaronpk
what really?
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kylewm
I know for sure that your site doesn't like "like-of" to be an h-cite
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kylewm
but I thought it worked with in-reply-to
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kylewm
it's relegated back to being a mention now
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kylewm
ack, nevermind the nevermind
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aaronpk
ben_thatmust: are you passing in the $refURL property when calling IndieWeb\comments\parse()?
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sparverius
that's pretty cool
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sparverius
ive been using keepass for a long time and the shitty non-windows support has been holding me back for a while
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ben_thatmustbe__
been a long time since i've looked at this code
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ben_thatmustbe__
$mf2_parsed = Mf2\parse($page_content, $canonical_url);
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ben_thatmustbe__
$comment_data = IndieWeb\comments\parse($mf2_parsed['items'][0], $target_url);
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finchd
cr: firefox plugin? that'll do
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tantek
and Google search is now worse for my site, than Twitter is for my POSSE copies. WTF.
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aaronpk
what happened google!
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tantek
I mean, like *historical* search
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sparverius
looks like im moving off of keepass
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tantek
Google dropped the ball in 2014
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aaronpk
makes me want to build an elasticsearch backed indieweb search engine
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sparverius
ive been trying to figure out how to rync my passwords around sanely
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sparverius
between two local machines
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aaronpk
tantek: it occurs to me that in my reply context and comments presentation I should add rel=nofollow to any links that appear in other peoples' posts on my site. does that sound reasonable?
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aaronpk
otherwise someon can add a link to my site that can be used as a vouch without me knowing
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tantek
aaronpk - sure. you could also do a quick "approval test" of such links and add rel-nofollow if they fail
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tantek
minimizing use of rel-nofollow is a good thing
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aaronpk
that sounds not very fun, so I'm adding it to my issues list instead of busintg it out right now :)
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aaronpk
omg wow my parsing of am/pm was just totally wrong
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tantek
am/pm? 24hourtime FTW
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aaronpk
it basically only worked when there was a food entry at 12:something
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aaronpk
yeah the problem is I was typing freehand text for entries into a notepad doc on my phone for 1yr 3 months
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aaronpk
and I was not strict about am/pm or 24hr time
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tantek
oh. contextual info needed. got it.
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@kevinmarks
@jonnojohnson I look forward to it, and hope it builds on the indieweb protocols we have been working on rather than being a monoculture
(twitter.com/_/status/523222272916480000)
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tantek.com
edited /federation (+4) "linky"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /DNS (+100) "centralized/hierarchical vulnerability/bottleneck"
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fiatjaf
?join #cloudant
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ShaneHudson
sparverius: How come you're moving off Keepass? That's what I use :)
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sparverius
i use linux and windows
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sparverius
and keepass is a big monolithic style manager while pass is more the unix way
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sparverius
which is nice because when i rsync i can preserve all of the metadata associated with each password
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ShaneHudson
Ah okay, I use KeepassX which works on everything. Though I think that is probably quite insecure
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ShaneHudson
Oh okay, will have to take a look at pass :)
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bret
ShaneHudson: sparverius I use keepass, and sync via bittorrent sync
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Loqi
bret: ben_thatmust left you a message 1 day, 9 hours ago: My argument as requested http://btmb.me/s/2q
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Loqi
bret: tantek left you a message on 10/16 at 6:12pm: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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ShaneHudson
I sync via dropbox... obvious insecure but convinent
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bret
ben_thatmustbe++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbe has 1 karma
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bret
will check it out
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bret
ShaneHudson: as long as you keep a key file off the wire you should be able to trust the encryption
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ShaneHudson
bret: Yeah that's what I figured
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bret
tantek: i could do it by hand as an example but i still have some serious technical debt I'm catching up on still
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bret
tantek: (photo tagging that is)
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aaronpk
now that I have this I want photo tagging: http://aaronparecki.com/links-to/bret.io
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ShaneHudson
aaronpk: Oh I like that
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aaronpk
could just as easily be photos-of/
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tantek
wow - photos-of/ would be amazing
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tantek
what is photos-of?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "photos-of" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=photos-of
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bret
Tag a photo send a WM
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aaronpk
"tag" being the operative word
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aaronpk
distinct from mentioning them in the caption of the photo
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ShaneHudson
You don't need to tag
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ShaneHudson
A mention would work fine providing it semantically knew that the person is in the photo. You don't need to say where.
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tantek.com
created /photos-of (+567) "stub with dfn, Silo Examples"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
instagram and facebook support tagging a 2D coordinate along with the person.
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aaronpk
flickr supports 2D rectangles or no shapes
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aaronpk
ShaneHudson: yes, it's that semantic part that nobody has done yet. didn't say anything about plocation within the photo
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tantek.com
edited /photos-of (+164) "Instagram"
(view diff)
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ShaneHudson
aaronpk: True, I suppose I always relate 'tag' to the rectangle
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tantek.com
created /photosof (+23) "Flickr URL path segment spelling"
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tantek.com
created /photos_of (+23) "r"
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aaronpk
flickr expicitly allows taggin people with no rectangle, so there's prior examples there
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tantek
bret - I understand you *could* do it, just wondering how motivate you are to do it.
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tantek
Facebook allows tagging people in any post, not just photos, distinct from mentioning them.
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KevinMarks_
twitter supports tagging people in images, but not rects
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ShaneHudson
I think that is one of the keystones of social networks, especially facebook. Being able to essentially create content for other people.
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tantek
KevinMarks: do you have a URL to view all the photos of you on Twitter?
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ShaneHudson
I expect the answer is no - but can the vouch system work for allowing people to view content?
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ShaneHudson
For example, there is a lot on Facebook (mostly photos taken by other people) that if I were looking for a job or something, I would probably want fairly private.
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tantek
ShaneHudson: one way to answer that question is to ask how do viewing permissions work on photos on Facebook?
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ShaneHudson
Yeah I see your point, must be logged in. So log in with indieauth and verfiy against a list of people allowed to see post?
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tantek
start from the UI
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tantek
e.g. common examples: public (indexable), public (no robots / login required), friends of anyone person-tagged in the photo, friends of the author of the photo, subset of friends of the author of the photo, only the author
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ShaneHudson
Friend of friend is interesting, though far too complicated for the moment.
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aaronpk
"friend of friend" (or "vouch of vouch" is closer for me now that I'm building lists of inbound and outbound domains
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ShaneHudson
'lists'? You have more than one?
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aaronpk
in and out are separate lists yeah
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tantek
ShaneHudson: not complicated! friend of friend *is* vouch!
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aaronpk
I also quickly remembered in this process that https sites don't send referers
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ShaneHudson
tantek: Oh? I've not had time to read it properly (obviously wasn't there at the time), friend of a friend is included in the vouch algorithm?
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tantek.com
edited /private_posts (+549) "silo examples, facebook"
(view diff)
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tantek
ShaneHudson - rough analogy
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tantek
see /Vouch. Now imagine: A is a friend of C is a friend of B. friend of friend
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ShaneHudson
what is vouch
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Loqi
The Vouch protocol is an anti-spam extension to Webmention. Webmention with Vouch depends on understanding Webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
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aaronpk
it's not referenced as friend of friend because the relationships between A B and C need not be friend relationships
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tantek
precisely
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tantek
however you could use /Vouch as a building block to build friend of friend
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tantek
with something like, say, XFN
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ShaneHudson
I see, that makes sense
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KevinMarks_
good question, tantek - it shows up as a notification
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tantek
ShaneHudson: feel free to do more research about how Facebook photos work for you in terms of privacy, and document more here: http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts#Facebook
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tantek
e.g. what icons they use, what precise wording they use "Visible to everyone" etc.
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tantek
document that stuff, as it will help driveinform any underyling plumbing