#indiewebcamp 2014-10-16

2014-10-16 UTC
EOGreer and KartikPrabhu_ joined the channel
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aaronpk
hm do I dare push a significant update to my website from a plane when I won't land for another 6 hrs?
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ShaneHudson
If it is version controlled, go for it
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ShaneHudson
If not, no!
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aaronpk
it is! I just may lose internet over the ocean and not be able to see what's going on
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aaronpk
i think i'm ready to launch vouch support
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bear.im
created /mx (+170) "Created page with "{{stub}} <dfn>MX - tells other servers where to send email to for the domain (e.g. mail for example.com is handled by mail.example.com)</dfn> === See Also === - [[dns]]""
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snarfed
aaronpk: sweet!
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danlyke
finchd built it myself. Still evolving. Gross code at https://github.com/danlyke/FlutterbyNetCPP lots of clean-up left to do, and some Perl bits which still need to become C++
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snarfed
will bridgy wms survive?
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bear.im
edited /mx (+123)
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finchd
pdurbin: I may try that one, but... requires perl & python?
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bear.im
edited /mx (+20)
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aaronpk
snarfed: yes! (I had to add bridgy to my whitelist)
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snarfed
whitelist++
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Loqi
whitelist has 1 karma
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bear.im
created /ns (+189) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>a NS (aka NameServer) record in DNS tells the other DNS zone servers which servers are to be considered authoritative for zone updates.</dfn>''' === See Also ==...""
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gregorlove.com
moved /mx to /MX "capitalization"
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bear
gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 23 karma
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pdurbin
finchd: just perl. I install it with RPMs. I think there are Debian packages too.
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finchd
pdurbin: well the setup instructions say you need python-docutils
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bear
hugs gRegor`
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gRegor`
Haha
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gregorlove.com
edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[dns]] to [[DNS]] over redirect"
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gregorlove.com
edited /DNS (+3) "/* DNS Record Types */"
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tantek
bear++
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Loqi
bear has 38 karma
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tantek
gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 24 karma
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tantek
thanks guys - this stuff is way too cryptic for most even dev-types, nevermind others. part of the hell that is configuring independent DNS presence on the web.
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bear
if shane doesn't put his example into /DNS I will grab one of my older zone files and put it in there
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pdurbin
finchd: huh. I didn't realize
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cr
independent DNS still probbaly a lot simpler than SMTP? (the getting mails actually delivered part)
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cr
even in "early" days like 96 cablemodem/DSL most people told me the messages never arrived. already all sorts of realtime blackhole/spamtrapped-subnets back ten
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@jonathanfrei
I'm learning a lot from the fine folks involved with http://indiewebcamp.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/522571895414460417)
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fiatjaf
is this channel only for commentaries about indiewebcamp actual supported projects or can I talk about anything that may be related?
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bear
it's for anything that is related to the indieweb
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bear
if it goes too far astray we do have a off-topic channel
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fiatjaf
what do you guys think of couchdb? of using couchdb and couchapps to implement some services that everyone interested can run in their own couchdb database?
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bear
we tend to be back-end agnostic - a lot of folks store things using various databases
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bear
the key points are that you host your own data on your own domain - how that is implement is left up to you :)
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bear
if you have implemented that then we would love to hear about it
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fiatjaf
I'm thinking about a "scrapbook" application.
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fiatjaf
does "scrapbook" have any meaning to you?
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fiatjaf
there are a lot of indie tools for publishing content, I miss one (a really simple one) for receiving content. quick public notes people want to share to you, at your website.
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bear
only in the physical sense
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fiatjaf
along with links to their own public scrapbooks, so you can answer them there.
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bear
that is handled by having your site/app receive webmentions
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bear
so people post from their site to yours by referencing it on their site
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bear
what is webmention
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fiatjaf
and other people can read all this and join the conversation, if they want.
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Loqi
Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
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bear
what is reply
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Loqi
A comment is a kind of post that is in reply to some other post, that makes little or no sense without reading or at least knowing the context of the source post http://indiewebcamp.com/reply
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fiatjaf
is this a bot?
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bear
loqi is a bot - yes
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Loqi
woot!
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bear
the "what is" command scans the indiewebcamp.com wiki for that keyword
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bear
and returns the summary dfn if it finds one for that page
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fiatjaf
what is scrapbook
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "scrapbook" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=scrapbook
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bear
the first thing you will want to do is to get your own domain setup for auth
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bear
what is welcome
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Loqi
Welcoming is how we as a community welcome new members to our community http://indiewebcamp.com/welcome
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bear
that page lists the first two things that we like new folks to do
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fiatjaf
I'm reading about webmention, but it seems to need a webserver that can execute http requests, right?
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bear
that is the most common way to do it
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bear
I have a static site, so I wrote a small flask (python) app to handle the webmention side of things
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fiatjaf
couchdb won't support this. can't it be done from the client-side?
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fiatjaf
ok, I'll read more about it.
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bear
it could be - your website could have a webmention handler that takes the POST and does the couchdb magic to add it
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fiatjaf
this can be done.
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fiatjaf
I think.
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bear
let us know - self-dogfooding is a huge part of the indieweb community
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fiatjaf
ok. I will.
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bear
cool - and welcome :)
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fiatjaf
thank you.
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fiatjaf
one more thing:
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fiatjaf
does it fit in the indieweb?
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fiatjaf
or, because it is made to work with github pages, it doesn't?
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bear
quite a few folks are experimenting with github stored serverless data
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bear
but since github is a silo...
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bear
but for some that can be a hard hurdle to jump
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bear
that would be akin to people using WithKnown for their pages or Wordpress
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bear
so yea, it fits :)
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fiatjaf
heroku is also a silo?
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bear
yea, silos are everywhere
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bear
even my site is a silo in so far as it's running on a server I don't physically control
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fiatjaf
the only thing that is not a silo is a webserver running in your own house?
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bear
but that's splitting hairs at the microscopic level
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fiatjaf
well, maybe we could talk about levels of siloness, then
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bear
yea, sorry - I was just following a mental thread
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bear
if you have data in wordpress or heroku or ghpages - that works
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fiatjaf
github is probably less siloer than facebook.
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fiatjaf
but I will be quiet for now, and listen
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bear
some will quibble about it but in the end you own your domain and your data - where you host it is up to you
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fiatjaf
instead of trying to change your concepts
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cr
delegated access-control is key to DNS, and the RWW
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bear
I'll probably get some pushback about my mini-rant above from the others ;)
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cr
mabe you hve a geeky friend with a super-stable server. she sets ACLs so you can control your stuff yet not have to pay off the ICANNSAICVERISIGNDONUTS DNS cartel yourself, or manage a server yourself
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kylewm
fiatjaf: are you using Coisas to publish on your own site?
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cr
a phone/tablet is a good place to put a webserver too
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cr
if you carry it with you, network connectivity wll never be an issue to get your stuff. hopefully you rsync/git-push it to something with more reachability/uptime if it's intended to be public
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bear
wanders off to have a late night snack
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fiatjaf
kylewm: yes, my own blog, that is temporarily running at the github.io domain
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fiatjaf
kylewm: my girlfriend is also using it for her blog. so it is a huge success.
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kylewm
fiatjaf: better than me!!
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fiatjaf
kylewm: what do you use?
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kylewm
that's very indieweb though, especially when you put it on your own domain
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cr
~90mb, compared to ~9mb in SQLite.
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cr
did you try btrfs/reiser4? they don't have the insane 4096-byte-minimum like most FSes
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cr
did you additionally try their built-in compression features. or try gzipping your files and setting the approprahte HTTP header to inform the other end
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cr
am thinking you could get that down to mayb 2x sqlite size with a bit of tweaking
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fiatjaf
kylewm: well, your software implements a lot of indieweb nice thing, mine is just a static html generator :P
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kylewm
fiatjaf: i just meant I'm my only user ;)
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cr
"I did not want to think about caching recently accessed files in memory and am happy for now to leave that sort of logic up to a smart database. " - what? the kernel does this for files
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kylewm
that's a good point, cr
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cr
" it still felt "icky" to have to keep all this post data stored in two separate places, " - hard links, multiple pointers to a single inode
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kylewm
cr: one place was the raw files in the file hierarchy, the other place was an index
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kylewm
one big blob of json in the root
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cr
FTP ppl used symlink index-dirs for decades
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cr
that's what i do . just with HTTP..
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tot
the webserver, while encountering files that will go into a response, compares their mtimes vs the local index timestamp. anything out of date is 'reindexed'.
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tot
so navigating to a new email ends up spewing a few symlinks, one onto a global 'timeline' dir walkable by date, another into the address dir (either to or from )
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tot
3rd symlink is for the References/In-Reply-To field, to reconstruct threads
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tantek
tot, is there a reason why you change your name from cr?
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tot
you want it to stay the same? that can be arranged
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tantek
just curious
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cr
ive acted in a way that i don't accrue an online "persona". changing nicknames on IRC every day for 20 years. each opensource project contribution under a different pseudonym/email. i dont blog or tweet or have a personal homepage
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cr
i guess this is more in line with the "rave" scene i remmeber from teh early 1990s. it wasnt so much about superstar DJs as more of a communal anonymous experience
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snarfed
cr: fascinating. unusual. i like it
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snarfed
tantek_: curious what you think. are indieweb and cr's behavior basically disjoint? or is indieweb still relevant to cr somehow?
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snarfed
indieweb's core tenet is arguably owning your own (long-lived) domain and using it to own/post your own content
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snarfed
cr: given that, and given you intentionally avoid any long-lived identity, i'm curious what about indieweb interests you
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sparverius
snarfed: things like namecoin are interesting then
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sparverius
because, as long as you can keep cryptographic proof of your name, you hold onto it
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snarfed
sparverius: sure! but it sounds like cr wants the exact opposite
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snarfed
he intentionally *changes* his name regularly to keep his identity ephemeral
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snarfed
(or she)
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sparverius
oh yeah, i change my name on every network, game, etc
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sparverius
makes you harder to google
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tantek
snarfed, it's an interesting question. fundamentally indieweb is about owning your online identity and data (indie = independence / independent) through the use of your own domain (web).
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snarfed
tantek: exactly! which it sounds like cr actively avoids
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tantek
snarfed, in some ways I like to hope we can keep the barrier to entry to at least the IRC channel fairly low to encourage folks curious about the indieweb to be able to easily explore it, engage in some inquisitive dialog.
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tantek
independent of what their own preferences are
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snarfed
tantek: sure! now i'm mostly just hoping to hear from cr why he/she is interested, given the background
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tantek
indeed! it's fascinating to find out how new folks find us, and what they might be curious about.
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tantek
(cr, not necessarily talking about you in particular in the third person like that, but more so the general notion of new folks showing up)
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tantek
snarfed, in some recent conversations with folks pursuing indie / social web related things, I've made it pretty clear that owning your data / domain is of top importance to us, so however they want to serve it, that's up to them, but certainly we can collaborate on many things, e.g. extracting one's data from silos and making it usable.
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snarfed
tantek: definitely. another alternative for people like cr might be, they own their content on their own domain, but it's entirely private, and they only posse it out to silo accts that change regularly
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cr
trying to read Plusone.google on lynx. press 'A' 3 times to accept cookies, then it says "Bad HTML" and barfs an error. then shows some blank login page
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cr
is there some simple pythonscript that spits out gplus posts to .txt or HTML? https://plus.google.com/115094562986465477143/posts/Di6RwCNKCrf
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cr
no way i'm disabling /etc/hosts blockage of them, since they spy on you on damn near ANY webpage w/ those "like buttons" . them and facebook
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cr
only halway serious about pseudonymity thing. it's more something i'm accused of
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cr
but, using the same hostname from a shell, you could easily piece back togethe rall the nicks
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cr
anonymous was absolutely everywhere in 90s , gopher/ftp/telnet username default guest-user etc
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cr
so simple to spoof NNTP client settings yet still get your stuff showing up on USENET etc
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cr
a far cry from this "Real Name or else" the Orwellian companies prefer today
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cr
having a somewhat stable reputable identity can definitelyt help w/ antispam. but it neednt be tied to real names. that's jsut marketing-surveillytics crazytalk
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aaronpk
we have surprisingly few examples of people posting events and rsvps on their own sites
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aaronpk
I thought there were more implementations than listed here http://indiewebcamp.com/event#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk
ah more RSVP implementations listed here http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
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thierry.marianne.io
edited /projects (+1064) "/* added new section about the grid project to experimental projects */"
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thierry.marianne.io
edited /projects () "(-1064) /* Experimental */"
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thierry.marianne.io
edited /projects (+1064) "/* Not sure this summary about the grid belongs to the project page ... please let me know if this is good enough */"
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aaronpk
good morning from Amsterdam!
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obra
good morning!
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neuro`
Good morning aaronpk
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neuro`
welcome to old Europe
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michielbdejong.com
created /events/2014-10-15-hwc-lisbon/ (+2645) "Created page with "Report: Present: Andrea, Eva, Guiseppo, Michiel, Pierre '''Broadcast hour''' Things we discussed during the first ("broadcast") hour: * what is indieweb * what is webmention,...""
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@mcnesium
Ich hab jetzt hier mal das webmention Plugin installiert. Mal sehen ob das auch funktioniert. Simon hat dafür eine… https://mcnesium.com/1341/
(twitter.com/_/status/522662023067234307)
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thierrymarianne
Good morning!
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michielbdejong
aaronpk: good morning from Lisbon! :)
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aaronpk
oh very cool!
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aaronpk
great notes!
KartikPrabhu_, petermolnar, Sebastien-L, tilgovi, sammachin, EOGreer, krendil and Haxxa joined the channel
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grant
Hey, anyone available to help me test out webmentions?
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petermolnar
I can help
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grant
awesome, can you send a relpy to this? http://grant.codes/notes/2014-10-16
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grant
cool thanks
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Pierre-O
kylewm: Thanks for your feedback, do you know where I can report issues?
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notizblog.org
edited /site-deaths (+264) "added YIID"
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@kevinmarks
@charlesarthur @ruskin147 @kellan it would partially work. Reducing Huish interaction to rules is always hard. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/522702008604569600)
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fiatjaf
how are people here dealing with web analytics? http://indiewebcamp.com/website-analytics almost only talks about mowens.com
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petermolnar
I'd recommend piwik for a really indie approach
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@kevinmarks
@SarahMarshall @thudnik that is why we have http://indiewebcamp.com and the protocols to make this distributed again
(twitter.com/_/status/522703684078030848)
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ShaneHudson
what is piwik
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "piwik" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=piwik
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petermolnar
I've tested it out, it's pretty decent, but getting data out from it can hammer the mysql server heavily
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michielbdejong.com
edited /Events (+523) "/* Upcoming */ announce the second HWC Lisbon on 29 Oct"
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michielbdejong.com
edited /Events (+1) "/* Upcoming */ fix copy-paste mistake"
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@IndieHosters
Yesterday we helped set up the Lisbon chapter of the Homebrew Website Club. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-15-hwc-lisbon/ Do one in your city, too! #indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/522709935290064896)
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@pierreozoux
RT @IndieHosters: Yesterday we helped set up the Lisbon chapter of the Homebrew Website Club. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-15-hwc-lisbon/ Do one in your city, t…
(twitter.com/_/status/522711016191574016)
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thierry.marianne.io
edited /projects (+4) "/* attempt to rephrase last paragraph */"
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /IndieAuth (+122) "/* Security */ Link to my post on why we shouldn't use TOTP"
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ben_thatmust
!tell aaronpk, bret My argument as requested http://btmb.me/s/2q
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@BrighidBrighid
What I love about LLPIX Designs is Laura works with Authors until they are satisfied with book cover. #amwriting #indieweb #indie #books
(twitter.com/_/status/522733941539618816)
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fiatjaf
ShaneHudson, petermolnar: I am developing a pure-couchdb (plus http command-line client) web-analytics platform (simple thing, but highly useful, I think). do you think it will interest anyone?
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ShaneHudson
Probably, simple and useful is the best way to go :) I've never used couchdb though
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petermolnar
couchdb? sound alien :D
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petermolnar
( I've seen it before, never used it )
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petermolnar
but it would probably be interesting
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fiatjaf
couchdb is very useful, it can contain server logic and serve content through http. it has embedded auth, users, roles and can have complex rules for accepting writes. so a lot of webpages and apps can be built using only couchdb, no other backend: http://nolanlawson.com/2013/11/15/couchdb-doesnt-want-to-be-your-database-it-wants-to-be-your-web-site/
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ShaneHudson
what is couchdb
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "couchdb" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=couchdb
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ben_thatmustbeme
what platform are people using for analytics? sounds like a question for bear to add to indie-stats
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ben_thatmustbeme
i use Google Analytics
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fiatjaf
couchdb databases are also easily moved, copied or continually backed-up using their replication protocol to and for various other backends (http://pouchdb.com/2014/07/25/pouchdb-levels-up.html), including the browser's idb, the filesystem and any leveldb-levelup backend
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petermolnar
Google Analytics, no, thanks, although I'm guilty as well, using wordpress.com analytics
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petermolnar
piwik is a good one though
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats weird, Benwerd liked my post on FB, but bridgy sends a WM to all links that i linked to?
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reedstrm
petermolnar: had performance issues trying to set up piwik some time ago. You had any problems with it?
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petermolnar
reading out from it, yes, it was slow as hell, putting data in: no issues
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fiatjaf
what is webfinger
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Loqi
WebFinger is a discovery protocol for the web that aims to bring functionality found in the unix finger tool to the web, using email address-like identifiers or fully qualified URLs to represent people http://indiewebcamp.com/WebFinger
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bigbluehat
fiatjaf: your couchdb analytic's thing has interest to me! :) tell me more ^_^
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bigbluehat
full disclosure: I'm a core committer to couchdb ;)
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bigbluehat
about Cloudant (based on Apache CouchDB) as a "webized" database
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bigbluehat
...which makes it very IndieWeb-y
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fiatjaf
bigbluehat: I don't understand JSON-LD, it seems like a very complicated protocol without any use case. am I being too ignorant?
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bigbluehat
nope. :)
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bigbluehat
the value of JSON-LD is the @context thing
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fiatjaf
bigbluehat: which is a xml-like value
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bigbluehat
if you imagine all your usual JSON keys being obfuscated
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bigbluehat
into UUIDs or something meaningless to people
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bigbluehat
but provided a JSON-LD @context body that said what each of those UUID's actually mapped to
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bigbluehat
then the value (to machines) becomes apparent
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bigbluehat
for instance
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fiatjaf
right. I understand that.
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bigbluehat
first_name, firstName, givenName, etc all have the same meaning to (most) people
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fiatjaf
but I can't think of a use case for that.
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bigbluehat
but none of them == (let alone) === to a computer
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fiatjaf
I don't have lots of public data waiting to be queried by the masses, no one here has
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bigbluehat
but you want to get data from each other, right?
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bigbluehat
and for that to have meaning to the code you right
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bigbluehat
regardless, the post is less about JSON-LD and more about URLs for all the things :)
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bigbluehat
and thereby webizing
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fiatjaf
right. I like that :P
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bigbluehat
that's really all JSON-LD is providing :)
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bigbluehat
a way to map URL's on top of existing JSON
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bigbluehat
with less in-line mess / changes
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bigbluehat
it's a take it or leave it sort of tech ;)
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bigbluehat
if you don't see it's value, don't bother with it :)
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fiatjaf
but who is using it?
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fiatjaf
anyway, my webnalytics couchdb tool isn't going to surprise you, as you are a core couchdb committer, it is just the user accessing your site posting events (pageView, clickSomewhere etc.) info to your couchdb.
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tantek
fiatjaf - what's your personal website?
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fiatjaf
tantek: why are you asking that? what do you want from me? who are you?
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tantek
fiatjaf in reverse order: I am tantek.com. I'd like to find out how you're doing on your own indieweb site (for the first 2 questions)>
#
tantek
and your interest in indiewebcamp
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ShaneHudson
fiatjaf++
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Loqi
fiatjaf has 1 karma
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fiatjaf
tantek: I am not an engaged indieweb user, I found this yesterday
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tantek
how did you find it?
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tantek
(I mean the channel, us)
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tantek
also, we ask people here about their personal website as way of also seeing how much they use their own tools (like your webnalytics couchdb and site posting events) on their own personal site.
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bigbluehat
fiatjaf: the project sounds cool :)
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bigbluehat
let me know if/when you get something into a github (or your own site) somewhere
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tantek
bigbluehat: I see from http://bigbluehat.com/ that you're going to TPAC - which groups are you participating in?
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bigbluehat
you may also want to surface it in #couchdb and the user@ list
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bigbluehat
why yes! :D
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bigbluehat
tantek: annotation stuff mostly
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bigbluehat
all day Wednesday for that
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fiatjaf
tantek: I have a blog hosted at github, fiatjaf.github.io (don't judge me). I have some domains also, but I'm working on doing something with them.
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bigbluehat
a bit of it on Tuesday
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fiatjaf
I have this, for example: http://wiki.fiatjaf.alhur.es/
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bigbluehat
will have to recheck the schedule to be accurate on the TPAC stuff
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bigbluehat
you're going to be there tantek ?
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tantek
fiatjaf: no judgments! any start with your own stuff on the web is a good start.
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ShaneHudson
Shame I won't be able to get to TPAC
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bigbluehat
would be cool to meet up :)
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bigbluehat
fiatjaf: yeah FedWiki! :D
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tantek
bigbluehat: I am in Social WG MT, then plenary day on Wednesday, then AB/AC meetings ThF.
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fiatjaf
tantek: I've heard about you reading something about camlistore.
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bigbluehat
port that to CouchDB and you'll have my undying gratitude ;)
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fiatjaf
who uses fedwiki?
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bigbluehat
and maybe a commit or two! even
#
tantek
what is fedwiki?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "fedwiki" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=fedwiki
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ShaneHudson
Hmm 'who uses' would be an interesting one for Loqi
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tantek.com
created /fedwiki (+37) "r"
(view diff)
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fiatjaf
what is Smallest Federated Wiki
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tantek
fiatjaf I don't see any users listed on http://indiewebcamp.com/Smallest_Federated_Wiki
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fiatjaf
bigbluehat: are you saying you want a fedwiki port to couchdb?
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fiatjaf
that's interesting.
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bigbluehat
well...maybe not the whole thing, but couchdb and/or pouchdb provide "federation" (of a kind) out of the box
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bigbluehat
so the ability to have things like FedWiki and Tiddly hosted inside CouchDB/PouchDB would get one most of the way there
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bigbluehat
the space still needed in the "federation" side of the CouchDB/PouchDB story is discovery, sharing, replication "hand shaking" etc.
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bigbluehat
for one, I'd love to see JPAKE-based "handshakes" for replication
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tantek
what is fedwiki?
#
Loqi
The Smallest Federated Wiki is an open source project led by Ward Cunningham to produce a wiki that federates using fork history, and was created & launched at the first IndieWebCamp in 2011 in Portland http://indiewebcamp.com/fedwiki
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tantek
what is CouchDB?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "CouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CouchDB
#
tantek
what is PouchDB?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "PouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PouchDB
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bigbluehat
this needs fixing for sure :)
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tantek
what is Tiddly?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Tiddly" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tiddly
#
bigbluehat
what is Tiddler
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Tiddler" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tiddler
#
bigbluehat
what is Tiddler?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Tiddler" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tiddler
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bigbluehat
oh...works without the ?
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ShaneHudson
One more o.O and I was going to ask if bigbluehat is a bot :P
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bigbluehat
not today ;)
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Loqi
hehe
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ShaneHudson
Ooo!!! We need a tantek-ing bot :D
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bigbluehat
ha! when did Loqi learn to laugh :)
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Loqi
grins profusely
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bigbluehat
nice touch
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fiatjaf
someone asking the newcomers who are they
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bigbluehat
we used to have "Monty" in #couchdb (> 4 years ago)
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bigbluehat
it would essentially accost new comers with crazy questions or comments
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bigbluehat
...it was funny...but sadly unhelpful in the long run :-P
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bigbluehat
PouchDB + WebRTC
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bigbluehat
what is IPFS?
#
ShaneHudson
Loqi is the first bot I have found very useful, the wiki and twitter integration is very useful
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "IPFS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=IPFS
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bigbluehat
what is ipfs.io?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "ipfs.io" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ipfs.io
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bigbluehat
ShaneHudson: what's loqi based on?
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aaronpk
who is Loqi?
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bigbluehat
Loqi: who made you?
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aaronpk
what is loqi?
#
Loqi
aaronpk: ben_thatmust left you a message 3 hours, 19 minutes ago: My argument as requested http://btmb.me/s/2q
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Loqi
Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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bigbluehat
motivate.im support
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ShaneHudson
bigbluehat: You would have to ask aaronpk :)
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bigbluehat
would be nice :)
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aaronpk
that's basically what the ++ is for
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bigbluehat
ShaneHudson: tnx! wandering the links
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bigbluehat
aaronpk: yeah, truly. !m is just funnier :)
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bigbluehat
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 583 karma
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bigbluehat
plus, you don't get "so-and-so has 1 karma" sadness
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bigbluehat
as it's not karma...just "nice" :)
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bigbluehat
aaronpk: great work on loqi regardless...very cool
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aaronpk
thanks :)
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aaronpk
hm what's that twitter profile_image URL trick?
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tantek
bigbluehat - re: Loqi / the wiki not knowing about those terms - CouchDB, PouchDB etc. - it's an indicator that so far they are irrelevant to the indiewebcamp community
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aaronpk
I thought we had some linked from /irc-people
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tantek
because if they were relevant, then someone would have documented even a simple stub article
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bigbluehat
yeah...it's that which I find suprising
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tantek
why? do you use them on your own site?
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bigbluehat
on several sites, but not bigbuehat.com...yet
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tantek
so that's why
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bigbluehat
github.com/bigbluehat/blueink <-- as the CMS is being rewritten from PHP/MySQL into something actually webby ;)
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tantek
they may be of use to others, but not indieweb
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tantek
you yourself are not using them on your own indieweb site
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tantek
therefore, as far as you know, they are irrelevant to the indieweb
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ShaneHudson
Yeah we tend to add terms once we use them on our own sites. Like I've been working on my DNS, so going to add some of that to the wiki
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bigbluehat
tantek: ha! hardly
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bigbluehat
it doesn't mean they have no value.
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tantek
bigbluehat: re-read above
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tantek
"they may be of use to others, but not indieweb"
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bigbluehat
just that no one here's seen it yet ;)
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tantek
no value until proven
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ShaneHudson
bigbluehat: Not that they have no value, but we just don't have time to document everything there is on the web. The going slowly approach seems to work well
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tantek
otherwise it's all hypothetical / theoretical
#
tantek
and there's too much of that to bother with
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bigbluehat
oh, sure! I wasn't expecting you to docuent all the things
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bigbluehat
i checked to see if someone had :)
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tantek
bigbluehat - it's a value by doing
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tantek
if no one is doing something, it likely has very little value
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bigbluehat
tantek: sure. I'm not sure what point you're actually trying to make here
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bigbluehat
I get why they're not on the wiki
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tantek
that so far, there is no evidence of any value of couchdb / pouchdb to the indieweb
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tantek
that's the point
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rascul
if/when there is, add something about it to the wiki :)
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tantek
it may be harsh, but so far, absent examples / evidence to the contrary, it is true
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bigbluehat
but why be harsh?
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tantek
bigbluehat: to filter noise
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tantek
see also: email lists
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aaronpk
who has the prettiest reply contexts these days?
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aaronpk
it feels odd to use screenshots of my own site in this slide deck
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ben_thatmustbeme
"pretties" is subjective i feel
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tantek
aaronpk - that's the challenge - yours (p3k) are among the prettiest :)
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aaronpk
i'm looking for subjective!
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tantek
UX is subjective!
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ben_thatmustbeme
mine isn't pretty
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aaronpk
aw man all the indieweb examples in /reply-context have broken twitter profile images
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ben_thatmustbeme
i need to work on css
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aaronpk
barnaby shows full reply context
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ShaneHudson
I need to get micropub working, but keeps going on the backburner
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ShaneHudson
Posting from my phone is quite annoying at the moment
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tantek
aaronpk - how about the separate page?
#
tantek
what are reply context examples?
#
tantek
faster to ask Loqi for the URL than type the URL
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aaronpk
oh hey!
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tantek
ooh I remember kylewm has decent examples
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tantek
reply contexts
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ShaneHudson
tantek: Oh dear, that has a screenshot of the tweet I sent you not realising you had @t since the beginning lol
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ShaneHudson
I really really like Kartik's site, a good one to use as an example of a lot of indieweb things
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aaronpk
kylewm: is your site overriding command-click somehow?
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kylewm
aaronpk: yeah that is broken :( i catch click events anywhere on h-entrys in the h-feed
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ben_thatmustbeme
command-click = rightclick ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
you can do that with JS, there are always ways around it though
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kylewm
and unfortunately that sometimes means it catches both events
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aaronpk
it's very frustrating when that happens
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kylewm
aaronpk: are you ctrl-clicking on the permalink?
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kylewm
I'll try to fix that, thanks for the heads up
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tantek.com
edited /reply-context-examples (+693) "dfn, add examples encouragement"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, works fine here, specific version?
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tantek
what are reply context examples?
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Loqi
reply context examples are real-world examples of reply-contexts on both indieweb sites and silos, how they are presented, their visual design, UI, etc http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context-examples
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aaronpk
i'm on home page, command-click permalink of the first post, and it opens in a new tab and also navigates the current window
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aaronpk
chrome on osx
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aaronpk
kylewm: you have two twitter syndication links here and one is 404 https://kylewm.com/note/2014/10/14/1/i-think-my-first-project-learning
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aaronpk
also as far as I can tell, nobody else besides me is parsing out h-events for the reply context
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kylewm
aaronpk: oops, fixed
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tantek
bigbluehat: what do you use on your own site? Perhaps document that on your user page!
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bigbluehat
tantek: right now it's an old (and sadly proprietary) PHP/MySQL implementation of BlueInk http://demo.bueinkcms.com (if you're curious)
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tantek
bigbluehat: definitely curious!
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bigbluehat
and many other places
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bigbluehat
but most of that's local :)
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bigbluehat
github.com/bigbluehat/sprung is nearly ready--check the "browsing" branch
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bigbluehat
it's partly a re-implementation of springpad.com (which I dearly miss) and partly an implemenation of an older idea--which lead me to love springpad.com...while it lasted
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bigbluehat
tantek: but yeah, I'll update my page on the indie web wiki :)
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tantek
great! I'll help with an h-card at the top and then leave the rest to you :)
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tantek
check out others' user pages for examples of what they're "Using" "Working On" for the personal site, as well as "Other Interests"
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tantek.com
edited /User:Bigbluehat.com (+28) "h-card for personal site link"
(view diff)
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bigbluehat
cool will do :)
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bigbluehat
fwiw, my site is IndieAuth compat
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bigbluehat
and supports userinfo.me :)
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bigbluehat
...think it's the only one so far ;)
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tantek
indeed! as you've used IndieAuth to login to the wiki :)
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bigbluehat
it doesn't use the custom UserInfo header, though...yet.
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bigbluehat
oh, right! ;)
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bigbluehat
forgot...
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bigbluehat
been a bit
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tantek
speaking of which
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tantek
you can now update your entry on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people to include an image!
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bigbluehat
k. lunch time here
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tantek
ok - enjoy!
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fiatjaf
anyone using webfinger?
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tantek
fiatjaf - not really, maybe a few? Originally it was completely ignored because no one needed it for their own indieweb site.
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fiatjaf
tantek: is there a consensus on what people should do about that?
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tantek
about what?
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kylewm
!tell pierre-o it looks like your indieauth is working now?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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fiatjaf
about how to get info from users
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fiatjaf
info from people based on their email/domain
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ben_thatmustbeme
did write up my whole why to not use TOTP as single factor auth
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tantek.com
edited /WebFinger (+2) "/* IRC Transcript */ update IRC conversation permalink. yay milliseconds"
(view diff)
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fiatjaf
or (can it be?) some specific page on a domain
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 25 karma
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tantek
fiatjaf - yes using their h-card on their site
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ben_thatmustbeme
or at least why its not as secure
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kylewm.com
uploaded /File:kylewm-reply-context-2014-10-16.png "example reply context from kylewm.com"
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ben_thatmustbeme
fiatjaf, for example http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://ben.thatmustbe.me/ parses my microformats for that page
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reedstrm
bigbluehat: some of us are very aware of that(those?) tech, just not yet seen their utility in an indieweb context. Don't need a Ferrari to get to the corner store ...
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reedstrm
(sorry, reading scollback)
#
reedstrm
I am surprised tiddler/fedwiki's not here, though. Yet. I looked at those a looong time ago, played around w/a tiddler on a stick for note taking.
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Pierre-O
@kylewm just tried right now.. Nope.. I really don't know what's happening.. Would like to help, but don't know where to start..
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tantek.com
edited /WebFinger (+77) "expand definition to explain functionality, superseded by, move unix naming origins to another sentence/para"
(view diff)
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reedstrm
performance eventually tanked. But that was a long time ago - hardware (and borwsers and JS engines) are all much faster now ...
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tantek
reedstrm: fedwiki is here - just needed a redirect.
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kylewm.com
edited /reply-context-examples (+154) "/* Kyle Mahan */ add example from my site"
(view diff)
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tantek
fedwiki was started at IndieWebCamp 2011!
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tantek
what is fedwiki?
#
Loqi
The Smallest Federated Wiki is an open source project led by Ward Cunningham to produce a wiki that federates using fork history, and was created & launched at the first IndieWebCamp in 2011 in Portland http://indiewebcamp.com/fedwiki
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reedstrm
Ah good. Yeah, I knew that. Need more caffeine!
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tantek
sometimes when what is fails it just means we need a redirect.
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kylewm
Pierre-O: I don't have an explanation yet, but try with "www" -- http://www.pierre-o.fr
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reedstrm
(been fighting the poodle and other ssl infelicities all morning)
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ben_thatmustbeme
thanks fiatjaf, i don't have a note about me, and i don't plan to add my email
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Pierre-O
@kylewm cool ;) \o/ Perfect! It's working, thanks a lot!
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Pierre-O
I do not use GHpages anymore
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ben_thatmustbeme
looks like pin13 doesn't follow redirects
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ben_thatmustbeme
does work that is
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kylewm
Pierre-O: ah interesting, please file an issue when you have a chance https://github.com/aaronpk/indieauth
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kylewm
normally i'd bug aaron in the channel but I think he is getting ready for a presentation :)
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fiatjaf
ben_thatmustbeme, tantek: so why do you use these h-cards? when commenting on each others' blogs you paste your domain so they know who are you?
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ben_thatmustbeme
fiatjaf, h-cards makes a simple way to identify "Me" if someone replies to my post and they want to pull in my icon and homepage link, they can, likewise if someone comments on my post, I know how to pull in their name / icon / url etc
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ben_thatmustbeme
it makes reply context possible across sites like this https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/10/11/6/
willowbl00, mlncn and jet__ joined the channel
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Pierre-O
@kylewm thanks, it's done ;)
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kylewm
Pierre-O++
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Loqi
Pierre-O has 1 karma
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kylewm.com
uploaded /File:mko-checkin-example-2014-10-15.png "example of a check in post from mowens.com"
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kylewm.com
edited /checkin (+221) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add mko with screenshot"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
edited /checkin (+26) "/* = Michael Owens */ add clearing div"
(view diff)
#
bear
Pierre-O++
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Loqi
Pierre-O has 2 karma
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kylewm.com
edited /checkin (+7) "/* = Michael Owens */ ugh fixing typos"
(view diff)
#
kylewm.com
edited /checkin (+6) "/* Michael Owens */"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
created /indie.js (+22) "redirect to proper capitalization"
(view diff)
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kylewm
!tell barnabywalters It doesn't look like I'm getting webmentions from you, any idea why?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
bigbluehat
reedstrm: I believe you are the first person I know of to call CouchDB a Ferrari :)
#
bigbluehat
due to its dependability, etc.
#
bigbluehat
and perhaps thrifty seat cover choices
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tantek
bigbluehat: re: "it wants to be your web site" - do you know anyone that is using couchdb as their primary content store on their personal site? Perhaps invite them here?
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bigbluehat
yeah, I'll ask around!
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bigbluehat
tantek: this page and list are a bit stale, but it's a decently long list for it's age: http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/CouchDB_in_the_wild#line-94
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bigbluehat
the BBC used it for a few years. :) and NPR does last I heard
#
bigbluehat
not for their entire site, though.
#
tantek
am going to assume "in the wild" is too noise filled to actually find individuals with their own websites
#
bigbluehat
sorry...didn't understand that.
#
tantek
from above
#
tantek
"their primary content store on their personal site"
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bigbluehat
yeah, I'll ask around.
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bigbluehat
tantek: is there some metric you're after? like "uses couchdb and support X IndieWeb tech"?
#
bigbluehat
or just "is used for personal web site" (vs. company, etc)?
#
tantek
"their primary content store on their personal site" is a good start
#
tantek
and then we can start asking the harder questions like
#
tantek
do the developers of couchdb actually use it *themselves* as their primary content store on their personal site
#
tantek
AKA how well is couchdb selfdogfooded?
#
gregorlove.com
edited /WebFinger (-1) "using/uses"
(view diff)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hey tantek, based on the talks of mobile UI and the contact info at IWC, i have started moving type creation for my MP client to its own page each, and once I'm finished I'll have a folder / screen with just MP client buttons.
#
tantek
what is MP?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "MP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=MP
#
bigbluehat
tantek: yeah, the "personal" site question is interesting. I know http://writing.jan.io/ does. jchris.net did (seems his hosting account's expired). and other's I've heard of in the past do
#
bigbluehat
it's just not always easy to tell without asking the people directly :)
#
bigbluehat
because varnish
#
tantek
what is varnish?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "varnish" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=varnish
#
ben.thatmustbe.me
created /MP (+22) "redirect"
(view diff)
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bigbluehat
reverse proxy
#
tantek
bigbluehat: that would be good to document (which devs have which couchdb sites and not) on the /CouchDB page (or whatever is the canonical capitalization)
#
bigbluehat
it's CouchDB
#
bigbluehat
Apache CouchDB to be specific :)
#
ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /MP (+0) "Redirected page to [[Micropub]]"
(view diff)
#
Loqi
Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients http://indiewebcamp.com/MP
#
tantek
cr what do you use on your site?
#
tantek
and what is your personal site?
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tantek
what is Irmin?
#
snarfed
tantek: i think we discussed this last night :P
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Irmin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Irmin
#
tantek
cr, looks like no one here uses Irmin.
#
arcatan
irmin looks interesting, though
#
bigbluehat
what is filesystem?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "filesystem" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=filesystem
#
bigbluehat
tantek: looks like no one here uses the filesystem either ;)
#
finchd
what is flatfile?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "flatfile" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=flatfile
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+16) "filesystem"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /flatfile (+26) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /filesystem (+26) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is filesystem?
#
Loqi
File Storage is the practice of storing main (primary) site content in flat files in a filesystem http://indiewebcamp.com/filesystem
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tantek
there you go bigbluehat
#
tantek
now your turn, create a page on /CouchDB
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bigbluehat
on it ;)
#
tantek
and finchd - your turn, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek
hello mlncn!
#
tantek
nice meeting you at IndieWebCampCambridge this past weekend!
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bigbluehat
tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/2012/Guest_List##CouchDB <-- personal site using CouchDB...reference circa 2012 :)
#
bigbluehat
so the existence of a wiki page != usage by the community
#
tantek
but the absence thereof does indicate not only lack of usage, but lack of interest (worse)
#
bigbluehat
of interest in documenting things on the wiki
#
bigbluehat
not much else.
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tantek
sure - it could also indicate lack of interest in collaboration - but that's good to know too
#
tantek
good find nonetheless - appears that there may be one indieweb community member that uses CouchDB on their site - since we don't know for sure
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bigbluehat.com
created /Apache_CouchDB (+240) "Add Apache CouchDB page"
(view diff)
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bigbluehat
tantek: check it ^^
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bigbluehat
tantek: nah, we just can't keep narrowing "collaboration" to anything smaller than "the Web" :)
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tantek.com
edited /Apache_CouchDB (+5) "-dup heading, +dfn"
(view diff)
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bigbluehat
tnx ^^ :)
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tantek
bigbluehat: sure, collaboration in this community
gr0k joined the channel
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finchd
tantek: sinxe hte last time you asked me that, i've: bought a domain, paid for hosting... I've yet to relearn HTML form scratch or make any content, so no IndieAuth for me...
#
tantek
finchd - you can copy paste some html from https://indieauth.com/setup
#
tantek
that should get you started!
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bigbluehat
what is CouchDB
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "CouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CouchDB
#
tantek
I can help with that
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tantek.com
created /CouchDB (+28) "r"
(view diff)
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bigbluehat
didn't know how to make a redirect
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tantek
what is CouchDB?
#
Loqi
Apache CouchDB (aka CouchDB) is a Document Storage Database with a straightforward HTTP API and the ability to do stateless master-master replication over (interruptible) HTTP connections http://indiewebcamp.com/CouchDB
#
tantek
what is couchdb?
#
Loqi
Apache CouchDB (aka CouchDB) is a Document Storage Database with a straightforward HTTP API and the ability to do stateless master-master replication over (interruptible) HTTP connections http://indiewebcamp.com/CouchDB
#
bigbluehat
nice! tnx tantek
#
tantek
well done Loqi :)
#
Loqi
who, me?
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bigbluehat
what is PouchDB?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "PouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PouchDB
#
bigbluehat
on it! ;)
#
tantek
bigbluehat: and now you do! (know how to make a redirect)
#
bigbluehat
waith....not quite...how'd you make the redir?
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finchd
tantek++ will do after work
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Loqi
tantek has 100 karma
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finchd
! hit one hundred!
#
tantek
woot!
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shaners
tantek--
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Loqi
tantek has 99 karma
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shaners
just kidding,
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shaners
tantek++
#
bigbluehat
!m tantek
#
bigbluehat
^^ see ;) useful ;)
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tantek
finchd - great! plenty of folks here to help step by step with adding to your website
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shaners
tantek++
#
tantek
bigbluehat++ for starting the docs on CouchDB
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Loqi
bigbluehat has 1 karma
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bigbluehat
ha! tnx ;)
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gRegor`
tantek++
#
Loqi
too much karma!
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shaners
LOQI I DIDNT MEAN IT. LET ME ++ AGAIN.
#
finchd
heh
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gRegor`
No such thing, Loqi!
#
reedstrm
Loki won't let you play those games ... :-)
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shaners
NOOOOOOOO
#
shaners
Did I break Loqi?
#
bigbluehat
if you all are into karma systems, checkout https://github.com/project-bitmark/
#
gRegor`
Nah, Loqi just rate limits karma
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bigbluehat.com
created /PouchDB (+178) "Add PouchDB page"
(view diff)
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bigbluehat
tantek: think I did that one betta
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gRegor`
What is PouchDB?
#
Loqi
PouchDB is an open-source JavaScript database inspired by Apache CouchDB that is designed to run well within the browser http://indiewebcamp.com/PouchDB
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tantek
looks good!
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ben_thatmustbeme
phew, broke webmention support this morning it looks like
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was playing more with vouch support
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tantek
bigbluehat: perhaps add a == Selfdogfood == section to /CouchDB noting what you said above about which of its devs are using on their personal sites
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ben_thatmustbeme
I think i'm pretty close to being able to send with vouches
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ben_thatmustbeme
just by default;
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tantek
nice ben_thatmustbeme !
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm going to take it out of my UI i think, just assume it can find it based on the page its given, the base url / homepage (if different) and any rel=me links that are internal to the site
#
tantek
perhaps leave it in for debugging for now?
#
tantek
until more receivers have their end working?
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ben_thatmustbeme
true, my end point just won't use the one its given
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i now have my whitelist public so that people can easily use that method to find a link on my site (if its published in that list, not all are)
#
mko
kylewm: Thanks for the comments regarding my checkins. :-)
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mko
I still have to figure out how to display posted imagery better with them, though. Right now, I just have photos appended below the map.
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mko
Thinking I might have to restructure some to do something like what Foursquare does on its pages with photos.
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ben_thatmustbeme
mko, i can't actually tell where that is though unless I know the area. I can't find a way to zoom out the map
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ben_thatmustbeme
or even tell what country it is
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tantek
mko++ - great work you've been doing there. seriously amazing indieweb design stuffs :)
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Loqi
mko has 10 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
it does look beautiful though
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Loqi
mko has 11 karma
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mko
That's okay, ben_thatmusbeme. I've got a lot more to do with it now that I've backfilled my site with all my previous Foursquare checkins.
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tantek
mko - you've imported all your previous checkins?!? whoa
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mko
Yep. All 2900 of them.
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tantek
that definitely deserves some documentation on /Foursquare on how you did it
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ben_thatmustbeme
i've been thinking about going through and backfilling all my old text messaging / AIM history once i get private messaging really worked out
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tantek
maybe in an == Export == section
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mko
I've also imported all 76,000 Last.fm listens.
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tantek
aaronpk - you've got some competition! ;)
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@rtaibah
Kullect is shutting down #indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/522808454096777216)
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tantek
what is Kullect?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Kullect" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Kullect
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mko
Hm. Never even heard of Kullect before.
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tantek
mko - what's a permalink to an example indieweb "listen" or "scrobble" on your site?
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mko
Technically, I haven't figured out a good way to POSSE my Last.fm activities, so they're still PESOS (though I did post a manual one just to ensure that I could do it without having to PESOS).
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ben_thatmustbeme
kullect: future entry for /site-deaths
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ben_thatmustbeme
another silo
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mko
That's an example of what they look like right now. Again, now that I've got tons of data, I'm seeing what I can do to improve the visual design of the listens.
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tantek
mko you're blowing me away - this is so good
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tantek
what is a listen?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "listen" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=listen
#
tantek
what is a scrobble?
#
Loqi
A scrobble is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track) that you have listened to http://indiewebcamp.com/scrobble
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gRegor`
mko++
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Loqi
mko has 12 karma
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mko
If you look at the HTML structure, each of the data elements has a p-* with the Musicbrainz ID of the various Tracks and Albums where it's available.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i misread that a a Scoble
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tantek.com
created /listen (+22) "r since scrobble is more often used (for now)"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /scrobble (+26) "dfn AKA listen"
(view diff)
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mko
Thanks, gRegor`. I wanted a good way of denoting that I didn't want a lot of my posts directly tied to locations, but I liked the idea of being able to segment them as a separate type of "location."
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gRegor`
Even caching album images locally? Nice
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gRegor`
needs to get time to get back to work on my site
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mko
Yeah. It annoyed me that Last.fm served images without HTTPS, so I cached the imagery for every track. I need to run a checksum comparison of images to remove duplicate files at some point.
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tantek.com
edited /scrobble (+239) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Michael Owens"
(view diff)
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mko
And when I imported Foursquare, I imported all of my posted photos, likes, and comments, though the likes and comments haven't been converted into IndieWeb mentions yet.
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ben_thatmustbeme
wow, mko you have really gone all out with imports, thats is excellent.
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tantek.com
edited /scrobble (+382) "details"
(view diff)
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mko
And now I've got a push endpoint on my site, so anytime I check-in on Foursquare through the app, it'll check me in via my site as well. If I check in via my site, it'll check me in via Foursquare and ignore the push response for the checkin (so I don't get duplicate checkins).
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tantek.com
edited /Foursquare (+268) "stub Export"
(view diff)
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mko
ben_thatmustbeme: I used to run a startup that was called Notion which was all about democratization of your personal health data. I've got so much more to import that it's not even funny. I have something like 2 TB of photo data that I want to figure out how to expose on my site, around half a million non-Foursquare location data points, millions of biomarkers, and my entire genetic sequence.
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ben_thatmustbeme
entire gene sequence should be interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme
i am just wishing there was some notification system for plays in Google Music so I could just push it all to my site
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tantek.com
edited /Foursquare (+690) "new POSSE section"
(view diff)
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mko
Yeah. I've already got a few visualizations working locally, but figuring out how to expose them publicly is proving to be a challenge. It's over 30MB of text data. Probably going to have to splice it (no pun intended) up into each chromosome.
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mko
ben_thatmustbeme: PESOS from Last.fm
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mko
They have a Google Music scrobbler.
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tantek
mko - if you have a moment to braindump how you did the Foursquare export/import - http://indiewebcamp.com/Foursquare#Export
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mko
Converts everything to files.
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mko
:-)
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mko
I live in public, my friend.
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, interesting *installs Scrobbler*
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tantek
what is Last.fm?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Last.fm" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Last.fm
#
tantek
what is Google Music?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Music" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Google+Music
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mko
How do you do an ordered list in wiki markup?
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mko
Just use HTML?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think its # at the start of a line
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ben_thatmustbeme
just from memory
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tantek.com
edited /Foursquare (+299) "/* Export */ scripts"
(view diff)
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mko
Yep. Thanks!
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mko
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 26 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, last update to last.fm before now was in 2011
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats going to change fast
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mowens.com
edited /Foursquare (+848) "/* Export details */"
(view diff)
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@Freerange_Inc
@mcphoo @bonnienardi @AndreaWiggins trust you're all familiar with the #indieweb and in particular @indie and the recent indie tech summit?
(twitter.com/_/status/522814545438707713)
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mko
Oops. I apparently broke my site search.
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mko
Not sure when that happened.
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ben_thatmustbeme
anyone doing PESOS from last.fm? and how are you doing it?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i can do an import for all my last.fm history, despite the huge gap... i wonder what other things have data like that on them... hmm
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fiatjaf
but I am not doing. I'm interested in learn how are you doing and how can I stop scrobbling to last.fm and start scrobbling to my domains.
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gRegor`
Last.fm Scrobbler now supports Last.fm?
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gRegor`
Er
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gRegor`
drinks more coffee.
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gRegor`
Last.fm Scrobbler now supports Google Music?
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gRegor`
There. Nailed it.
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gRegor`
I'd seen some unofficial javascript that scrobbled from Google Music, but hadn't tried it.
mlncn-agaric and Pierre-O joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
created /Last.fm (+162) "stub"
(view diff)
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cr
scroblr is a good vector from breaking free of last.fm
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cr
kinda sohcked it doesnt have some generic POST-handler for alternate update locations, but source is on github
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gregorlove.com
edited /scrobble (+72) "origin of term"
(view diff)
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fiatjaf
what is last.fm
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Loqi
Last.fm is a silo for tracking music listening and providing music recommendations http://indiewebcamp.com/Last.fm
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gRegor`
cr: Cool. Do you use scroblr.fm? Want to add it to the wiki?
Mark87 joined the channel
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Mark87
bigbluehat ooo that userinfo.me stuff looks very cool
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Mark87
I love when people come up with new uses for http
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bigbluehat
Mark87: thanks! :)
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bigbluehat
it's what I do. :)
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bigbluehat
here's another relify.com
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bigbluehat
those curl commands on userinfo.me work, btw ;)
snarfed and Mark87 joined the channel
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Mark87
weird. will someone mention me again. my client crashed when bigbluehat mentioned me
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bigbluehat
Mark87: bye, Mark :)
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Mark87
well im still here
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Mark87
that's weird
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bigbluehat
hi Mark87 !
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Mark87
i'll just blame it on windows10
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Mark87
are there any microdata or rdf users here that have opinions on microformats and pros and cons or anything they feel like sharing?
EOGreer joined the channel
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kylewm
that is a very open-ended question Mark87
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Mark87
i'm looking for open ended answers ;)
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kylewm
what are you trying to do, what do you want to use microdata or rdf for?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "you trying to do, what do you want to use microdata or rdf for" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+trying+to+do%2C+what+do+you+want+to+use+microdata+or+rdf+for
#
kylewm
Loqi!
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Loqi
is done
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Mark87
I want to make my pages a bit more machine readable so I can implement some ideas I have. i'm just looking for experiences or opinions to think about as I decide what syntax I want to use
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Mark87
I can start the conversation though. I have been a quiet fan of microdata for a long time now, what with schema.org, although i have an idea that goes in a slightly different direction than that. But at the same time, microformats have more traction, and really they are more useful than microdata because they are also css hooks
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kylewm
the nice thing (to me) about mircoformats is that they just to attempt to mark up the content that is already there
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Mark87
I recently wondered whether you couldn't replicate the machine-readableness i'm after with link tags with some sort of rel=context attribute like json-ld has
#
Mark87
well to the same extend microformats markup data so too does microdata
#
Mark87
extent*, and im sure rdfa for that matter, although i have no experience with it
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scor
rdfa does too
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gRegor`
I have no experience with microdata or rdfa, but I like mf2 for the minimal markup, in attributes ('class') I'm already using.
#
fiatjaf
I have bad prejudices against rdf or anything using xml, but I like triplestores, and every search for "triplestore" on google will return information about rdf.
#
gRegor`
What is triplestore?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "triplestore" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=triplestore
#
gRegor`
microdata is schema.org, right? Or is it a more general term?
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Mark87
microdata is part of the html5 spec and is a syntax for putting attributes in html tags that carry meaning
#
Mark87
schema.org is a library of objects that the major search engines can read from microdata embedded in indexed websites
tantek joined the channel
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scor
schema.org is a library of objects that the major search engines can read from microdata, RDFa or JSON-LD embedded in indexed websites
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gRegor`
Ah
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gRegor`
Personally, for my site, I'm more interested in interop with other people's sites, not so much search engines.
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tantek
on the indieweb, tommorris has experimented with all three, microformats, microdata, and rdfa
#
Mark87
gRegor as am I
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tantek
gRegor`, Mark87 indeed - that was one of the big lessons learned with "classic" microformats.
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Mark87
h-* could just as easily be microdata, or rdfa encoded
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gRegor`
Sure, but why?
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tantek
That if we assume search engines are the use-case then we end up waiting a long time for them, and then giving them too much power.
#
tantek
thus with microformats2, and indiewebcamp, we're focusing on immediately beneficial use-cases, peer to peer
#
tantek
rather than waiting for any large sites
#
danlyke
I think the lengths that modern search engines are going through to parse English and understand context shows that if you provide the data, search engines will find ways to use it.
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danlyke
Conversely, if you let search engines drive your page content, you get SEO.
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tantek
danlyke - both very accurate observations IMO
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mko
danlyke++
#
Loqi
danlyke has 9 karma
#
danlyke
yeah, the counter to that is that you have to have *an* application in order to justify markup, but I think inclusion of inbound links (even if I'm still skeptical about the notification mechanism) is a good application, and that gives microformats2 a leg up.
#
KartikPrabhu_
Mark87: just to add a small nit, ant html attribute can be a css hook so nothing special about mf2 using classes there
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu_: except that there's a big difference between "can be" and "is in practice"
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Mark87
KartikPrabhu i don't know if i knew that or not. unfortunately a bunch of data- prepended attributes will be ugly and inelegant
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu_: therefore "nothing special" is false
#
tantek
there's plenty special about working with the way developers already work (using class names)
KartikPrabhu__ joined the channel
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tantek
in fact, that's a pretty big deal, and a big difference between the way we design things for microformats / indieweb, and a lot of the theoretical academic junk out there
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KartikPrabhu__
tantek: I meant nothing special wrt CSS hooking
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Mark87
what i want to experiment with is adding "actions" to microformats
#
tantek
again, no
#
tantek
practical CSS hooking >>>>> theoretical CSS hooking ability
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tantek
practical > theoretical is plenty special
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KartikPrabhu__
hey many people use data-* in CSS now so...
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: many people use many HTML attributes
Pierre-O joined the channel
#
tantek
that doesn't mean they are using them for CSS hooks
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Mark87
so you're not just marking up "Here is the author's name", "here is the content of the post", "here is x data". I want to also say "here is a url where you can POST a reply to the post", "here is a url where you can rsvp to the event", etc
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KartikPrabhu__
i meant for CSS
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tantek
this is the same "special" that is the difference between theory that is evidence (practice) backed, vs. just theory (in science)
#
tantek
pretty darn special
#
tantek
as a scientist, you should appreciate that a lot!
#
tantek
we're doing science here, not just math.
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KartikPrabhu__
I like that mf2 uses classes because classes are simpler
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KartikPrabhu__
rather than all the new property and other stuff RDF has
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Mark87
KartikPrabhu__ that's exactly the sort of response i was looking for when i asked my original question. Now someone has to say something like "But you can't do X with microformats but you can with rdfa"
#
tantek
Mark87 - there's plenty such theoretical X
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KartikPrabhu__
so mf2 using classes -> simpler to write
#
tantek
but nothing in practice in *actual* end-user use-cases
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: one X i have heard to represent arbitrary graph like data, but I haven't needed to do that yet, except to write arbitrary graph like data
#
tantek
which is, a tautology
#
Mark87
i don't understand why you couldn't do that in microformats
#
Mark87
even if it might be less elegant a syntax for that sort of expression
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: because mf2 parsing happens like a tree
pauloppenheim joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu__
this web based beta version of logs is so awesome :P
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Loqi
aaronpk has 584 karma
#
Mark87
i can use some sort of reference to refer to other graph nodes
#
Mark87
probably a url
#
KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: you could add to mf2 syntax to do that, but that has not been useful so far
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KartikPrabhu__
I see no use for it except to use it
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KartikPrabhu__
like a textbook excercise
#
gRegor`
KartikPrabhu_ You've seen people hooking data- attributes in CSS? :;shakes head::
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KartikPrabhu__
gregor`: yes... and I have done this for marginalia myself because the js used data-* anyway
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gRegor`
Hmm
#
gRegor`
I think there should be a more stable way to do that with existing DOM elements+classes
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KartikPrabhu__
maybe. but adding/removing classes with JS is a nightmare
#
KartikPrabhu__
because clases are multi-valued
KartikPrabhu__ joined the channel
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: adding/removing classes with JS is a nightmare - not true! there are methods for that now!
#
tantek
DOM methods
#
KartikPrabhu__
gregor`: yeah you can CSS hook to any HTML attribute
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gRegor`
Just feels weird to use an attribute that is not intended for visibility to style the element.
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gRegor`
I knew you "can", just wasn't convinced it's a good idea.
KartikPrabhu__ joined the channel
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gRegor`
bye/wb/bye/wb KartikPrabhu_
#
KartikPrabhu__
sorry logged out accidently from web client
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tantek
gRegor`: hence theory ("can") vs. practice ("do")
#
KartikPrabhu__
tantek: these are some new JS methods and not sure they can used in older browsers
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KartikPrabhu__
the methods to manipulate classes I mean
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KartikPrabhu__
i try to write very stupid js for that reason
#
tantek.com
created /negging (+29) "r"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
stupid.js
#
tantek.com
edited /code-of-conduct (+76) "dfn, p-summary"
(view diff)
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mowens.com
edited /code-of-conduct (+39) "/* Signed */"
(view diff)
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Mark87
hmm one negative to microformats is the possibility of false positives because developers may use keyword class names in non-microformat webpages. Avoiding this introduces the annoying requirement to prepend keywords with u-/h-/etc prefixes
#
cr
ya raw DOM API aint that bad anymore inom
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tantek.com
created /CoC (+29) "r"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
Haha, kylewm
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cr
certainly vs 800K of enterprise-grade factorycreatorfactory-angular-scaffolding
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87: no the rpefixes are used by the parsering algorithm. they are not just namespace decorations
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gRegor`
The mf2 prefixes also provide important information for how to parse
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KartikPrabhu__
uggh me English, so bad
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aaronpk
mko: you imported 76000 last.fm scrobbles?! dang you beat me to it!!
#
aaronpk
also interesting permalink choice for venues! (https://mowens.com/entries/at/ocean-beach)
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aaronpk
dangit now I've got some serious catching up to do!
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aaronpk
oops that's still broken
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aaronpk
sorry KartikPrabhu__
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KartikPrabhu__
hmm ha the me breaks on web chat
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aaronpk
scrobbling is one of my longer-opened issues https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/16
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mko
Thanks, aaronpk. :)
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mko
I've got streaming auto-scrobbling as well as manual syndicated scrobbling. I couldn't figure out how to permalink to a Last.fm syndicated scrobble, though, so I'm not officially syndicating. I'm technically "duplicating"
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aaronpk
scrobbles don't have permalinks?
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tantek
neither do Favorites on Twitter
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aaronpk
but you're still basically doing PESOS from last.fm right?
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Mark87
all the homebrew website meetups are so far away from me, is there anyone in the st Louis area?
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gRegor`
Chicago is just 5 hours! ;)
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Mark87
gRegor indeed, i have thought about it
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tantek
Mark87 - for generic microformats questions / issues (e.g. "possibility") unrelated to any specific practical indieweb usage, feel free to ask in #microformats
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tantek
Mark87 re: St. Louis HWC, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings - maybe someone else from St. Louis will find you!
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gRegor`
Mark87: You should add your interest for STL here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings
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Mark87
@tantek i'll keep that in mind. i see some of the same people are involved
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tantek
gRegor`: jinx :)
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gRegor`
Out-tanteked!
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gRegor`
Don't mess with the master
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tantek
steps away, his job is done.
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gRegor`
:)
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gRegor`
tantek: Know if MN has been keeping up with HWC meetups?
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gRegor`
And should we remove the "TBD"s from http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club ?
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markmurfin.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+50) "/* Up-and-coming Meetings */"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Under "Where"
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tfontaine
gRegor` Semper ubi sub ubi.
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tantek
gRegor`: not sure about MSP, and yeah, likely remove TBDs that you know the outcome of
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gRegor`
I have no idea the outcome of MSP. Wasn't sure if you were still in contact with them.
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tantek
I am - I can ask :)
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gRegor`
tfontaine: Translate? #lazyweb
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tfontaine
Always where under where
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gRegor`
Lulz
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gregorlove.com
edited /Ghost (+47) "Indieweb Examples section"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
tfontaine: You should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/Ghost#Indieweb_Examples
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke
created /RAID (+280) "Creating something to fix"
(view diff)
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anomalily
I'm looking for this too, actually, because I want to steal CSS
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+17) "strongly emphasize "primary long-term storage""
(view diff)
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kylewm
anomalily: what are you looking for? (i.e. that you want to steal CSS from)
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Mark87
what features do people like in their indie feed readers? or do you even use them?
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tantek
Mark87, check out /reader
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anomalily
Hey all, aaronpk needs to get off IRC and finish his talk for tomorrow
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anomalily
LEt's shame him off IRC
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gRegor`
Haha
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anomalily
kylewm: Sorry, I was responding to higher up on chat logs ;)
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke
edited /PostgreSQL (+486) "/* Dan Lyke */ Adding my rebuttal to "database antipatterns""
(view diff)
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anomalily
I'm looking to steal someone's pretty CSS for webmentions. Mine is pretty messy right now
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tantek
anomalily: you mean for comments?
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anomalily
Yea.
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tantek
webmention is just plumbing ;)
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gRegor`
anomalily: emmak has a nice layout http://notenoughneon.com/2014/7/26/1
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ben_thatmustbeme
starting to gather what data I can find
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@gRegorLove
@aaronpk Stop looking at Twitter and IRC. Finish those #indieweb slides! :]
(twitter.com/_/status/522854896995807232)
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aaronpk
la la la la I can't hear you
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, unfortunately mysql doesn't seem to happy with my kanji input
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gRegor`
Probably needs utf8mb4 instead of just utf8 charset
mcepl, Pierre-O and snarfed joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
edited /MySQL (+402) "/* Stopwords */ === Full UTF-8 Support ==="
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
https://ben.thatmustbe.me/listen/2012/3/25/25/ nevermind, field was still latin1 while the table was utf8
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gRegor`
"Nobody should need more than 3 bytes for a character" MySQL utf8
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gRegor`
Cool. Just that one field, or all fields? latin1 => utf8 can mess up some characters, if utf8 was inserted previously.
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gregorlove.com
edited /Tantek-ing (+4) "wikilink 'dfn'"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
it was on all, i switched it over and re-inserted those 4 records that were messed up
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ben_thatmustbeme
the bold doesn't look great
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ben_thatmustbeme
but its ok for now
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gRegor`
Oh, only 4 records. Phew. Cool :)
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gRegor`
I recommend an ALTER DATABASE to set the default to utf8
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gRegor`
Otherwise I'm too likely to forget the charset in each create table sql
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gRegor`
ben_thatmustbeme++ nice work
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 27 karma
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KartikPrabhu__
throws a bomb and ducks
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think the room has become database-antipattern fight impervious at this point
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KartikPrabhu__
is happy that regulars here have learned to avoid db fights :)
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KartikPrabhu__
this was a triumph, I'm making a note here "huge success"
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KartikPrabhu__
s/triumph/trial
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu__ meant to say: this was a trial, I'm making a note here "huge success"
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gregorlove.com
edited /code-of-conduct (+0) "/* Consequences */ them/they, semi-colon"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Meh. I know you use a database, KartikPrabhu_. :)
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gRegor`
The database is a lie!
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KartikPrabhu__
i am trying to move on to my mf2-file-storage cube
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KartikPrabhu__
fwiw I had a similar MySQL encoding problem and it barfed on a emdash! luckily only 1 entry needed to be re entered
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gRegor`
barfed, meaning it wouldn't insert the em dash? Or displayed the garbage characters on output?
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KartikPrabhu__
it refused the emdash as an entry in the DB because it could not be encoded in latin whatever
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gRegor`
That's odd. Usually it's coerced into latin1 bytes.
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gRegor`
Which is why it messes up on subsequent display. I've had to deal with a lot of latin1 to utf8 issues at work over the years, heh
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@kartik_prabhu
@adactio fixed. added your post as webmention. The emdash in your html title was causing #mysql to throw a hissy fit.
(twitter.com/_/status/417178161978167296)
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gRegor`
If anyone needs code to pretty safely convert, I have this for PHP https://github.com/gRegorLove/nucleus-cms-to-utf8 It's specific to Nucleus CMS, but could be generalized pretty easily.
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KartikPrabhu__
adactio uses emdash in the title :)
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gRegor`
I do too
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danlyke
If the connection to the database was UTF8 and the table was Latin1, the database would have to be coercing 8212(decimal) into an 8 bit number, so it'd choke on that. If the connection was Latin1 and the table was Latin1, you'd get garbage.
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KartikPrabhu__
well thankfully I fixed it
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gRegor`
Actually, guess it's the html entity for it, not an actual em dash. nvm
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: iirc that was my problem too. took me a while to realise as this was my first time using any DB
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danlyke
wish there was a "no, really, everything is UTF8 so stop messing with my bytes!" global (including the user's browser) setting.
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KartikPrabhu__
hence my motivation to switch to HTML+mf2 for storage.
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Mark87
is there anyone who publishes h-cards inside h-entrys?
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KartikPrabhu__
a lot of them. me for instance
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Mark87
thank you
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KartikPrabhu__
anything here https://kartikprabhu.com/notes has a h-entry > h-card
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gRegor`
I do, for authorship, currently.
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gRegor`
gregorlove.com and gregorlove.com/notes
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KartikPrabhu__
in fact h-feed > h-entry >h-card
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Mark87
its interesting how they can appear in different places. @tantek's appear to be h-card > h-feed > h-as-note
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Mark87
and maddening
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danlyke
So does kylewm. And apparently I need to do something h-card is on my blog pages, although I have the "which identity page is this" problem there.
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gRegor`
The /authorship algorithm can be a bit tricky, yeah. http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Determining
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Mark87
gRegor++
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Loqi
gRegor has 7 karma
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: pick one. you can always change the "identity url" later
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Mark87
I knew that there would be a page for that somewhere, im going to stop asking questions and just search one of these days
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kylewm
Mark87: take a look at tantek's permalink pages, that's a more apples to apples comparison with others
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tantek
checks logs
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danlyke
so does a p-author need to be within an h-card, or is it sufficient authorship within an h-entry?
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kylewm
h-card within an h-entry needs a p-author property on it (if it's the author's card)
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kylewm
otherwise it might be a reference to someone else
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kylewm
h-card on KevinMarks is child of the h-entry, but not the author
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: for authorship you need a p-author which has your name in it. if you want more info then use .p-author.h-card
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tantek
Mark87 - what problem are you trying to solve?
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Mark87
i'm trying to parse the output of phpmf2 into something useable. Now I've decided the easiest way is to just convert it to RSS which I already have a robust parser for.
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danlyke
So <article class="h-entry"><a class="p-author p-name" href="/archives/user.cgi?id=$author_id">$name</a> should be correct? Or do I need an h-card in that <a class="..."> too?
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: the p-name will make it the name of your h-entry
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tantek.com
edited /dfn (+88) "see also start a page, note p-summary works because inside h-entry for the page"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /start_a_page (+10) "see also dfn"
(view diff)
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danlyke
Yep, just caught that. Thanks.
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gRegor`
mf2 to RSS? Whoa.
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Mark87
just for h-entrys
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Mark87
just title, author, link, description
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KartikPrabhu__
for your case you'd want <article class="h-entry"><div class="p-author h-card"><a href="/archives/user.cgi?id=$author_id">$name</a></div>
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danlyke
Yeah, because in a vcard p-name is equivalent to fn
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tantek
Mark87 "something useable" - for what use-case?
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: I think the h-card will altumatically infer a name and url for you
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danlyke
Going with "p-author h-card" for now.
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danlyke
On mf2 to RSS: Yeah, all of my applications for mf2 are basically RSS semantics, so that makes sense.
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tantek
Mark87++ very cool!!!
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Loqi
Mark87 has 0 karma
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tantek
wait what?!?
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tantek
who gave Mark87 negative karma?
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Mark87
lol me I believe
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tantek
Loqi ought to not let people self-karma, even negatively.
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Mark87
well I didn't do it, it tried to do it, and someone else did when loqi refused
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Mark87
I tried*
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Mark87
I made a bad joke, or several
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gRegor`
Mark87++ for positive karma
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Loqi
Mark87 has 1 karma
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Mark87
hurray!
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gRegor`
puns++
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Loqi
puns has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu__
Mark87++ as compensation
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Loqi
dude
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tantek
seems like I missed quite the handwringing about MySQL and UTF8
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KartikPrabhu__
oh come on Loqi be nice
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Loqi
woot!
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gRegor`
handwringing?
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kylewm
Mark87: when you say "my feed reader" do you mean the reader you use or the reader you building?
#
Mark87
kylewm building
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Mark87
and using
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kylewm
ooooh
#
Mark87
its now become a vicious cycle. I built it for giggles, then found myself using it, so now im building it more, which makes me use it.....
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tantek
you do realize how the following does not make databases (or at least MySQL) look very good?
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tantek
"Probably needs utf8mb4 instead of just utf8 charset" - wait what? why do I care as a user?
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kylewm
Mark87: very well stated explanation of http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood ;)
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tantek
"nevermind, field was still latin1 while the table was utf8" - wait, you have that option of hurting yourself?
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tantek
"Just that one field, or all fields? latin1 => utf8 can mess up some characters, if utf8 was inserted previously." - no, seriously?
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tantek
"i switched it over and re-inserted those 4 records that were messed up" - only 4 records worth of fix-up tax then?
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gRegor`
I did add utf8mb4 to the /mysql
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tantek
"I recommend an ALTER DATABASE to set the default to utf8" - when was the last time you had to ALTER DIRECTORY?
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KartikPrabhu__
look like tantek picked up my DB-bomb
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tantek
" I'm too likely to forget the charset in each create table sql" = source of fragility
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu__: yup. whee!
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gRegor`
Storying utf8 characters in latin1 encoding can have the same effect in a file as in a database.
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tantek
"fwiw I had a similar MySQL encoding problem and it barfed on a emdash!"
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gRegor`
s/Storying/Storing/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: Storing utf8 characters in latin1 encoding can have the same effect in a file as in a database.
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KartikPrabhu__
gregor`: has english encoding issues :P
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tantek
gRegor`: "Storying" was correct. as in "can have" is a story, not experience. :P
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gRegor`
tantek: ? Cannot parse
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tantek
"can" is hypothetical, "has" and "does" is experience
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KartikPrabhu__
snarfed: while you are here, do you know if python functions can be run from other systems? I ask in anticipation of making a python mf2+HTML storage
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KartikPrabhu__
I anticipate it being a big endeavour and want to get the structure roughly sorted out
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snarfed
i'm going to regret this, but i'm still curious about one thing re database-antipattern
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snarfed
whenever people advocate or deep dive into specific backend tools here, we often say, "that's plumbing, we prefer to focus on end user use cases (and maybe interop) here"
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snarfed
...but we make an exception for db vs flat files, which we dive into with relish, even though it's still plumbing
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gRegor`
snarfed: It's a trap!
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gRegor`
;)
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KartikPrabhu__
I think tantek has been pointing out the UX issues with DBs particularly for non-experts
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snarfed
gRegor`: yeah, i got caught :P
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tantek
snarfed - correct, I think I answered this before (so I should make it an FAQ), however when plumbing's unreliability/fragility becomes visible to the UX, then it's worth documenting as a source of problems.
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snarfed
tantek: i guess. we go way beyond just user-visible criticism though.
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danlyke
Yeah. The big reason for the rise of MySQL? Users can configure it without going all "chmod -R 0777" on shared hosting. Thus it's easier.
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snarfed
er, criticism caused by user-visible bugs, etc
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KartikPrabhu__
rubs hands gleefully for DB-bombing... <excellent> ;)
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tantek
snarfed, do we? pretty sure all the criticism on /database-antipattern is from a user-impact
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danlyke
I'll also note that I ran a short poll after the last discussion on another channel, and got a unanimous "the database-antipatterns page turns me off from that community" from people who actively maintain their own personal web sites.
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snarfed
(UX for developers doesn't count. that's plumbing debate. which is still worthwhile! we just often disavow it.)
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snarfed
tantek: i was thinking more about the discussions. i haven't audited that page :P
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tantek
snarfed - not UX for developers, UX for people with their own website
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: for context. were these people themselves seasoned devs?
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snarfed
tantek: right. just confirming axioms
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@kartik_prabhu
@adactio fixed. added your post as webmention. The emdash in your html title was causing #mysql to throw a hissy fit.
(twitter.com/_/status/417178161978167296)
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kylewm
danlyke: suspect you'd get a similar reaction to that poll in *this* channel.
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: yup. the problem is for beginners who just want a website
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@adactio
@kartik_prabhu I’m trying to send a webmention to that post (through your form) but I’m getting a 500 error. My URL: http://adactio.com/journal/6620/
(twitter.com/_/status/417080794931159040)
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snarfed
yup. again, i fully agree there are examples. it just hadn't seemed like they were the center of the debate
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snarfed
but maybe i misinterpreted
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tantek
snarfed, if it doesn't affect the UX - you're right, it's just plumbing preferences
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tantek
the problems are in two categories:
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snarfed
good to hear
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tantek
1) fragility = your website goes down / away / corrupted = very bad UX
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danlyke
Yabbut: I suspect that class of users just want a tool they can one-click from a CPanel, or an image they can one-clilck run on a VPS.
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KartikPrabhu__
danlyke: yup! UX
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tantek
2) DBA tax = your website sucks more of your otherwise free time (also impacts your UX of using/maintaining your website since it is more demanding for non-content oriented tasks)
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KartikPrabhu__
actually CPanel is horrible UX too :P
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snarfed
tantek: understood
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu__: re calling python fns "from other systems," not sure what you mean…?
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KartikPrabhu__
the whole point is if you are a seasoned dev then you have no trouble with building a website in the first place! but for "normal" people managing and debugging a DB is a nightmare
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KartikPrabhu__
"normal" includes me
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tantek
thanks snarfed, based on that I'll add it as an FAQ
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gRegor`
I have experienced (at work), putting UTF-8 into an ISO-8859-1 encoded HTML file and subsequent garbage text, until I ensured our designers text editors were saving as UTF-8. It may be rare, but it's not hypothetical (to me).
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I *am* a seasoned dev and I have no time for DBA tax.
#
tantek
seriously, not my idea of a fun hobby
#
tantek
but apparently it is to some
#
KartikPrabhu__
tantek: true. but it is worse for beginners
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kylewm
the idea that it's easier to use the file-system than a database [needs citation]
#
kylewm
for anything more complex than a static site generator
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tantek
it is MUCH worse for beginners. which is why it's even more ludicrous to see all the people emo-tweeting in reaction to /database-antipattern. it's as if they lack empathy for non-dev users.
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KartikPrabhu__
snarfed: If I make a python storage thingie with functions that insert and pull entries from a file system will people running PHP be able to use it on their website?
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snarfed
yeah. until very recently, i still didn't understand that we meant dbs were an antipattern just for personal sites until very recently. i thought the argument was that they were bad, period
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snarfed
i'm glad that's been clarified recently
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tantek
snarfed - yeah, my bad for not making that clear up front
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pdurbin
people are emo-tweeting?
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KartikPrabhu__
no way! pdurbin that never happens ;)
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu__: that's kind of too high level and vague to answer. sure, yes, if your storage thingie is something lang-agnostic, e.g. txt or json or a db (duck)
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snarfed
…but not if it's e.g. pickles
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tantek
pdurbin - yes, 90% (made up stat) of the (re)tweets referencing /database-antipattern were emo-tweets (lacking any rational argument)
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snarfed
but i'm guessing that's not what you mean?
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KartikPrabhu__
no i mean can PHP call the python function get_entry(slug) or something?
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KartikPrabhu__
maybe best to avoid thinking o this before I have some code :P