#indiewebcamp 2014-10-16

2014-10-16 UTC
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aaronpk hm do I dare push a significant update to my website from a plane when I won't land for another 6 hrs?
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ShaneHudson If it is version controlled, go for it
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ShaneHudson If not, no!
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aaronpk it is! I just may lose internet over the ocean and not be able to see what's going on
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aaronpk i think i'm ready to launch vouch support
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bear.im created /mx (+170) "Created page with "{{stub}} <dfn>MX - tells other servers where to send email to for the domain (e.g. mail for example.com is handled by mail.example.com)</dfn> === See Also === - [[dns]]"" (view diff)
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snarfed aaronpk: sweet!
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danlyke finchd built it myself. Still evolving. Gross code at https://github.com/danlyke/FlutterbyNetCPP lots of clean-up left to do, and some Perl bits which still need to become C++
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snarfed will bridgy wms survive?
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bear.im edited /mx (+123) (view diff)
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finchd pdurbin: I may try that one, but... requires perl & python?
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bear.im edited /mx (+20) (view diff)
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aaronpk snarfed: yes! (I had to add bridgy to my whitelist)
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snarfed whitelist++
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Loqi whitelist has 1 karma
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bear.im created /ns (+189) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>a NS (aka NameServer) record in DNS tells the other DNS zone servers which servers are to be considered authoritative for zone updates.</dfn>''' === See Also ==..."" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com moved /mx to /MX "capitalization"
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bear gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 23 karma
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pdurbin finchd: just perl. I install it with RPMs. I think there are Debian packages too.
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gregorlove.com edited /MX (-2) (view diff)
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finchd pdurbin: well the setup instructions say you need python-docutils
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gregorlove.com created /MX_record (+16) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /ns (+1) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com moved /ns to /NS
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gregorlove.com created /NS_record (+16) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /nameserver (+16) "r" (view diff)
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bear hugs gRegor`
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gRegor` Haha
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gregorlove.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[dns]] to [[DNS]] over redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /DNS (+3) "/* DNS Record Types */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /MX (+7) (view diff)
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tantek bear++
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Loqi bear has 38 karma
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tantek gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 24 karma
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tantek thanks guys - this stuff is way too cryptic for most even dev-types, nevermind others. part of the hell that is configuring independent DNS presence on the web.
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bear if shane doesn't put his example into /DNS I will grab one of my older zone files and put it in there
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pdurbin finchd: huh. I didn't realize
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cr independent DNS still probbaly a lot simpler than SMTP? (the getting mails actually delivered part)
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cr even in "early" days like 96 cablemodem/DSL most people told me the messages never arrived. already all sorts of realtime blackhole/spamtrapped-subnets back ten
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@jonathanfrei I'm learning a lot from the fine folks involved with http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/522571895414460417)
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Loqi [mention] http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/10/im-learning-a-lot-from-the-fine-folks-involved-wi linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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fiatjaf is this channel only for commentaries about indiewebcamp actual supported projects or can I talk about anything that may be related?
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bear it's for anything that is related to the indieweb
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bear if it goes too far astray we do have a off-topic channel
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@jonathanfrei Iā€™m learning a lot from the fine folks involved with http://indiewebcamp.com http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/10/im-learning-a-lot-from-the-fine-folks-involved-wi (twitter.com/_/status/522574813400145920)
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fiatjaf what do you guys think of couchdb? of using couchdb and couchapps to implement some services that everyone interested can run in their own couchdb database?
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bear we tend to be back-end agnostic - a lot of folks store things using various databases
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bear the key points are that you host your own data on your own domain - how that is implement is left up to you :)
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bear if you have implemented that then we would love to hear about it
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fiatjaf I'm thinking about a "scrapbook" application.
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fiatjaf does "scrapbook" have any meaning to you?
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fiatjaf there are a lot of indie tools for publishing content, I miss one (a really simple one) for receiving content. quick public notes people want to share to you, at your website.
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bear only in the physical sense
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fiatjaf along with links to their own public scrapbooks, so you can answer them there.
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bear that is handled by having your site/app receive webmentions
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bear so people post from their site to yours by referencing it on their site
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bear what is webmention
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fiatjaf and other people can read all this and join the conversation, if they want.
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Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
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bear what is reply
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Loqi A comment is a kind of post that is in reply to some other post, that makes little or no sense without reading or at least knowing the context of the source post http://indiewebcamp.com/reply
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fiatjaf is this a bot?
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fiatjaf ok.
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bear loqi is a bot - yes
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Loqi woot!
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bear the "what is" command scans the indiewebcamp.com wiki for that keyword
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bear and returns the summary dfn if it finds one for that page
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fiatjaf what is scrapbook
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "scrapbook" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=scrapbook
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bear the first thing you will want to do is to get your own domain setup for auth
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bear what is welcome
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Loqi Welcoming is how we as a community welcome new members to our community http://indiewebcamp.com/welcome
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bear that page lists the first two things that we like new folks to do
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fiatjaf I'm reading about webmention, but it seems to need a webserver that can execute http requests, right?
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bear that is the most common way to do it
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bear I have a static site, so I wrote a small flask (python) app to handle the webmention side of things
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fiatjaf couchdb won't support this. can't it be done from the client-side?
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fiatjaf ok, I'll read more about it.
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bear it could be - your website could have a webmention handler that takes the POST and does the couchdb magic to add it
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fiatjaf this can be done.
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fiatjaf I think.
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bear let us know - self-dogfooding is a huge part of the indieweb community
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fiatjaf ok. I will.
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bear cool - and welcome :)
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fiatjaf thank you.
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fiatjaf one more thing:
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fiatjaf I have this project: https://github.com/fiatjaf/coisas
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fiatjaf does it fit in the indieweb?
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fiatjaf or, because it is made to work with github pages, it doesn't?
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bear quite a few folks are experimenting with github stored serverless data
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bear but since github is a silo...
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fiatjaf :P
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bear but for some that can be a hard hurdle to jump
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bear that would be akin to people using WithKnown for their pages or Wordpress
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bear so yea, it fits :)
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fiatjaf heroku is also a silo?
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bear yea, silos are everywhere
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bear even my site is a silo in so far as it's running on a server I don't physically control
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fiatjaf the only thing that is not a silo is a webserver running in your own house?
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bear but that's splitting hairs at the microscopic level
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fiatjaf well, maybe we could talk about levels of siloness, then
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bear yea, sorry - I was just following a mental thread
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bear if you have data in wordpress or heroku or ghpages - that works
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fiatjaf github is probably less siloer than facebook.
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fiatjaf but I will be quiet for now, and listen
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bear some will quibble about it but in the end you own your domain and your data - where you host it is up to you
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fiatjaf instead of trying to change your concepts
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cr delegated access-control is key to DNS, and the RWW
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bear I'll probably get some pushback about my mini-rant above from the others ;)
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cr mabe you hve a geeky friend with a super-stable server. she sets ACLs so you can control your stuff yet not have to pay off the ICANNSAICVERISIGNDONUTS DNS cartel yourself, or manage a server yourself
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kylewm fiatjaf: are you using Coisas to publish on your own site?
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cr a phone/tablet is a good place to put a webserver too
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cr if you carry it with you, network connectivity wll never be an issue to get your stuff. hopefully you rsync/git-push it to something with more reachability/uptime if it's intended to be public
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bear wanders off to have a late night snack
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fiatjaf kylewm: yes, my own blog, that is temporarily running at the github.io domain
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fiatjaf kylewm: my girlfriend is also using it for her blog. so it is a huge success.
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kylewm fiatjaf: better than me!!
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fiatjaf kylewm: what do you use?
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kylewm that's very indieweb though, especially when you put it on your own domain
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kylewm http://indiewebcamp.com/Red_Wind
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cr ~90mb, compared to ~9mb in SQLite.
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cr did you try btrfs/reiser4? they don't have the insane 4096-byte-minimum like most FSes
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cr did you additionally try their built-in compression features. or try gzipping your files and setting the approprahte HTTP header to inform the other end
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cr am thinking you could get that down to mayb 2x sqlite size with a bit of tweaking
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fiatjaf kylewm: well, your software implements a lot of indieweb nice thing, mine is just a static html generator :P
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kylewm fiatjaf: i just meant I'm my only user ;)
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cr "I did not want to think about caching recently accessed files in memory and am happy for now to leave that sort of logic up to a smart database. " - what? the kernel does this for files
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fiatjaf ah!
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kylewm that's a good point, cr
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cr " it still felt "icky" to have to keep all this post data stored in two separate places, " - hard links, multiple pointers to a single inode
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kylewm cr: one place was the raw files in the file hierarchy, the other place was an index
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kylewm one big blob of json in the root
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cr FTP ppl used symlink index-dirs for decades
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cr that's what i do . just with HTTP..
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tot the webserver, while encountering files that will go into a response, compares their mtimes vs the local index timestamp. anything out of date is 'reindexed'.
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tot so navigating to a new email ends up spewing a few symlinks, one onto a global 'timeline' dir walkable by date, another into the address dir (either to or from )
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tot 3rd symlink is for the References/In-Reply-To field, to reconstruct threads
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tantek tot, is there a reason why you change your name from cr?
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tot you want it to stay the same? that can be arranged
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tantek just curious
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cr ive acted in a way that i don't accrue an online "persona". changing nicknames on IRC every day for 20 years. each opensource project contribution under a different pseudonym/email. i dont blog or tweet or have a personal homepage
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cr i guess this is more in line with the "rave" scene i remmeber from teh early 1990s. it wasnt so much about superstar DJs as more of a communal anonymous experience
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snarfed cr: fascinating. unusual. i like it
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snarfed tantek_: curious what you think. are indieweb and cr's behavior basically disjoint? or is indieweb still relevant to cr somehow?
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snarfed indieweb's core tenet is arguably owning your own (long-lived) domain and using it to own/post your own content
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snarfed cr: given that, and given you intentionally avoid any long-lived identity, i'm curious what about indieweb interests you
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sparverius snarfed: things like namecoin are interesting then
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sparverius because, as long as you can keep cryptographic proof of your name, you hold onto it
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snarfed sparverius: sure! but it sounds like cr wants the exact opposite
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snarfed he intentionally *changes* his name regularly to keep his identity ephemeral
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snarfed (or she)
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sparverius oh yeah, i change my name on every network, game, etc
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sparverius makes you harder to google
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tantek snarfed, it's an interesting question. fundamentally indieweb is about owning your online identity and data (indie = independence / independent) through the use of your own domain (web).
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snarfed tantek: exactly! which it sounds like cr actively avoids
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tantek snarfed, in some ways I like to hope we can keep the barrier to entry to at least the IRC channel fairly low to encourage folks curious about the indieweb to be able to easily explore it, engage in some inquisitive dialog.
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tantek independent of what their own preferences are
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snarfed tantek: sure! now i'm mostly just hoping to hear from cr why he/she is interested, given the background
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tantek indeed! it's fascinating to find out how new folks find us, and what they might be curious about.
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tantek (cr, not necessarily talking about you in particular in the third person like that, but more so the general notion of new folks showing up)
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tantek snarfed, in some recent conversations with folks pursuing indie / social web related things, I've made it pretty clear that owning your data / domain is of top importance to us, so however they want to serve it, that's up to them, but certainly we can collaborate on many things, e.g. extracting one's data from silos and making it usable.
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snarfed tantek: definitely. another alternative for people like cr might be, they own their content on their own domain, but it's entirely private, and they only posse it out to silo accts that change regularly
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cr trying to read Plusone.google on lynx. press 'A' 3 times to accept cookies, then it says "Bad HTML" and barfs an error. then shows some blank login page
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cr is there some simple pythonscript that spits out gplus posts to .txt or HTML? https://plus.google.com/115094562986465477143/posts/Di6RwCNKCrf
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cr no way i'm disabling /etc/hosts blockage of them, since they spy on you on damn near ANY webpage w/ those "like buttons" . them and facebook
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cr only halway serious about pseudonymity thing. it's more something i'm accused of
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cr but, using the same hostname from a shell, you could easily piece back togethe rall the nicks
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cr anonymous was absolutely everywhere in 90s , gopher/ftp/telnet username default guest-user etc
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cr so simple to spoof NNTP client settings yet still get your stuff showing up on USENET etc
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cr a far cry from this "Real Name or else" the Orwellian companies prefer today
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cr having a somewhat stable reputable identity can definitelyt help w/ antispam. but it neednt be tied to real names. that's jsut marketing-surveillytics crazytalk
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aaronpk we have surprisingly few examples of people posting events and rsvps on their own sites
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aaronpk I thought there were more implementations than listed here http://indiewebcamp.com/event#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk ah more RSVP implementations listed here http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
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thierry.marianne.io edited /projects (+1064) "/* added new section about the grid project to experimental projects */" (view diff)
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thierry.marianne.io edited /projects () "(-1064) /* Experimental */" (view diff)
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thierry.marianne.io edited /projects (+1064) "/* Not sure this summary about the grid belongs to the project page ... please let me know if this is good enough */" (view diff)
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aaronpk good morning from Amsterdam!
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obra good morning!
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neuro` Good morning aaronpk
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neuro` welcome to old Europe
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michielbdejong.com created /events/2014-10-15-hwc-lisbon/ (+2645) "Created page with "Report: Present: Andrea, Eva, Guiseppo, Michiel, Pierre '''Broadcast hour''' Things we discussed during the first ("broadcast") hour: * what is indieweb * what is webmention,..."" (view diff)
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@mcnesium Ich hab jetzt hier mal das webmention Plugin installiert. Mal sehen ob das auch funktioniert. Simon hat dafĆ¼r eineā€¦ https://mcnesium.com/1341/ (twitter.com/_/status/522662023067234307)
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thierrymarianne Good morning!
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michielbdejong aaronpk: good morning from Lisbon! :)
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michielbdejong we did a HWC here yesterday http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-15-hwc-lisbon/
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aaronpk oh very cool!
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aaronpk great notes!
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grant Hey, anyone available to help me test out webmentions?
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petermolnar I can help
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grant awesome, can you send a relpy to this? http://grant.codes/notes/2014-10-16
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petermolnar here you go: https://petermolnar.eu/r/test-reply/
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grant cool thanks
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Pierre-O kylewm: Thanks for your feedback, do you know where I can report issues?
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notizblog.org edited /site-deaths (+264) "added YIID" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks @charlesarthur @ruskin147 @kellan it would partially work. Reducing Huish interaction to rules is always hard. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/522702008604569600)
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fiatjaf how are people here dealing with web analytics? http://indiewebcamp.com/website-analytics almost only talks about mowens.com
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petermolnar I'd recommend piwik for a really indie approach
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@kevinmarks @SarahMarshall @thudnik that is why we have http://indiewebcamp.com and the protocols to make this distributed again (twitter.com/_/status/522703684078030848)
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ShaneHudson what is piwik
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "piwik" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=piwik
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petermolnar it's on the http://indiewebcamp.com/website-analytics page
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petermolnar I've tested it out, it's pretty decent, but getting data out from it can hammer the mysql server heavily
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/522703684078030848/522704209251426304 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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michielbdejong.com edited /Events (+523) "/* Upcoming */ announce the second HWC Lisbon on 29 Oct" (view diff)
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michielbdejong.com edited /Events (+1) "/* Upcoming */ fix copy-paste mistake" (view diff)
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@IndieHosters Yesterday we helped set up the Lisbon chapter of the Homebrew Website Club. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-15-hwc-lisbon/ Do one in your city, too! #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/522709935290064896)
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@pierreozoux RT @IndieHosters: Yesterday we helped set up the Lisbon chapter of the Homebrew Website Club. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-15-hwc-lisbon/ Do one in your city, tā€¦ (twitter.com/_/status/522711016191574016)
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thierry.marianne.io edited /projects (+4) "/* attempt to rephrase last paragraph */" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /IndieAuth (+122) "/* Security */ Link to my post on why we shouldn't use TOTP" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust !tell aaronpk, bret My argument as requested http://btmb.me/s/2q
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@BrighidBrighid What I love about LLPIX Designs is Laura works with Authors until they are satisfied with book cover. #amwriting #indieweb #indie #books (twitter.com/_/status/522733941539618816)
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fiatjaf ShaneHudson, petermolnar: I am developing a pure-couchdb (plus http command-line client) web-analytics platform (simple thing, but highly useful, I think). do you think it will interest anyone?
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ShaneHudson Probably, simple and useful is the best way to go :) I've never used couchdb though
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petermolnar couchdb? sound alien :D
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petermolnar ( I've seen it before, never used it )
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petermolnar but it would probably be interesting
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fiatjaf couchdb is very useful, it can contain server logic and serve content through http. it has embedded auth, users, roles and can have complex rules for accepting writes. so a lot of webpages and apps can be built using only couchdb, no other backend: http://nolanlawson.com/2013/11/15/couchdb-doesnt-want-to-be-your-database-it-wants-to-be-your-web-site/
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ShaneHudson what is couchdb
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "couchdb" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=couchdb
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ben_thatmustbeme what platform are people using for analytics? sounds like a question for bear to add to indie-stats
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ben_thatmustbeme i use Google Analytics
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fiatjaf couchdb databases are also easily moved, copied or continually backed-up using their replication protocol to and for various other backends (http://pouchdb.com/2014/07/25/pouchdb-levels-up.html), including the browser's idb, the filesystem and any leveldb-levelup backend
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petermolnar Google Analytics, no, thanks, although I'm guilty as well, using wordpress.com analytics
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petermolnar piwik is a good one though
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/facebook/14305603/10101172174205434/36802236 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme thats weird, Benwerd liked my post on FB, but bridgy sends a WM to all links that i linked to?
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reedstrm petermolnar: had performance issues trying to set up piwik some time ago. You had any problems with it?
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petermolnar reading out from it, yes, it was slow as hell, putting data in: no issues
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fiatjaf what is webfinger
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Loqi WebFinger is a discovery protocol for the web that aims to bring functionality found in the unix finger tool to the web, using email address-like identifiers or fully qualified URLs to represent people http://indiewebcamp.com/WebFinger
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bigbluehat fiatjaf: your couchdb analytic's thing has interest to me! :) tell me more ^_^
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bigbluehat full disclosure: I'm a core committer to couchdb ;)
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bigbluehat fiatjaf: you might also be interested in this post: https://cloudant.com/blog/webizing-your-database-with-linked-data-in-json-ld/
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bigbluehat about Cloudant (based on Apache CouchDB) as a "webized" database
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bigbluehat ...which makes it very IndieWeb-y
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fiatjaf bigbluehat: I don't understand JSON-LD, it seems like a very complicated protocol without any use case. am I being too ignorant?
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bigbluehat nope. :)
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bigbluehat the value of JSON-LD is the @context thing
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fiatjaf bigbluehat: which is a xml-like value
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bigbluehat if you imagine all your usual JSON keys being obfuscated
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bigbluehat into UUIDs or something meaningless to people
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bigbluehat but provided a JSON-LD @context body that said what each of those UUID's actually mapped to
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bigbluehat then the value (to machines) becomes apparent
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bigbluehat for instance
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fiatjaf right. I understand that.
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bigbluehat first_name, firstName, givenName, etc all have the same meaning to (most) people
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fiatjaf but I can't think of a use case for that.
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bigbluehat but none of them == (let alone) === to a computer
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fiatjaf I don't have lots of public data waiting to be queried by the masses, no one here has
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bigbluehat but you want to get data from each other, right?
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bigbluehat and for that to have meaning to the code you right
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bigbluehat regardless, the post is less about JSON-LD and more about URLs for all the things :)
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bigbluehat and thereby webizing
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fiatjaf right. I like that :P
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bigbluehat that's really all JSON-LD is providing :)
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bigbluehat a way to map URL's on top of existing JSON
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bigbluehat with less in-line mess / changes
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bigbluehat it's a take it or leave it sort of tech ;)
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bigbluehat if you don't see it's value, don't bother with it :)
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fiatjaf but who is using it?
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fiatjaf anyway, my webnalytics couchdb tool isn't going to surprise you, as you are a core couchdb committer, it is just the user accessing your site posting events (pageView, clickSomewhere etc.) info to your couchdb.
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tantek fiatjaf - what's your personal website?
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fiatjaf tantek: why are you asking that? what do you want from me? who are you?
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tantek fiatjaf in reverse order: I am tantek.com. I'd like to find out how you're doing on your own indieweb site (for the first 2 questions)>
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tantek and your interest in indiewebcamp
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ShaneHudson fiatjaf++
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Loqi fiatjaf has 1 karma
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fiatjaf tantek: I am not an engaged indieweb user, I found this yesterday
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tantek how did you find it?
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tantek (I mean the channel, us)
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tantek also, we ask people here about their personal website as way of also seeing how much they use their own tools (like your webnalytics couchdb and site posting events) on their own personal site.
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bigbluehat fiatjaf: the project sounds cool :)
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bigbluehat let me know if/when you get something into a github (or your own site) somewhere
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tantek bigbluehat: I see from http://bigbluehat.com/ that you're going to TPAC - which groups are you participating in?
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bigbluehat you may also want to surface it in #couchdb and the user@ list
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bigbluehat why yes! :D
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bigbluehat tantek: annotation stuff mostly
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bigbluehat all day Wednesday for that
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fiatjaf tantek: I have a blog hosted at github, fiatjaf.github.io (don't judge me). I have some domains also, but I'm working on doing something with them.
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bigbluehat a bit of it on Tuesday
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fiatjaf I have this, for example: http://wiki.fiatjaf.alhur.es/
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bigbluehat will have to recheck the schedule to be accurate on the TPAC stuff
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bigbluehat you're going to be there tantek ?
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tantek fiatjaf: no judgments! any start with your own stuff on the web is a good start.
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ShaneHudson Shame I won't be able to get to TPAC
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bigbluehat would be cool to meet up :)
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bigbluehat fiatjaf: yeah FedWiki! :D
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tantek bigbluehat: I am in Social WG MT, then plenary day on Wednesday, then AB/AC meetings ThF.
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fiatjaf tantek: I've heard about you reading something about camlistore.
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bigbluehat port that to CouchDB and you'll have my undying gratitude ;)
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fiatjaf who uses fedwiki?
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bigbluehat and maybe a commit or two! even
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tantek what is fedwiki?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "fedwiki" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=fedwiki
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ShaneHudson Hmm 'who uses' would be an interesting one for Loqi
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tantek.com created /fedwiki (+37) "r" (view diff)
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fiatjaf what is Smallest Federated Wiki
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Smallest_Federated_Wiki
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tantek fiatjaf I don't see any users listed on http://indiewebcamp.com/Smallest_Federated_Wiki
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fiatjaf bigbluehat: are you saying you want a fedwiki port to couchdb?
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fiatjaf that's interesting.
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bigbluehat well...maybe not the whole thing, but couchdb and/or pouchdb provide "federation" (of a kind) out of the box
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bigbluehat so the ability to have things like FedWiki and Tiddly hosted inside CouchDB/PouchDB would get one most of the way there
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bigbluehat the space still needed in the "federation" side of the CouchDB/PouchDB story is discovery, sharing, replication "hand shaking" etc.
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tantek.com edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+222) "dfn" (view diff)
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bigbluehat for one, I'd love to see JPAKE-based "handshakes" for replication
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tantek what is fedwiki?
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Loqi The Smallest Federated Wiki is an open source project led by Ward Cunningham to produce a wiki that federates using fork history, and was created & launched at the first IndieWebCamp in 2011 in Portland http://indiewebcamp.com/fedwiki
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tantek what is CouchDB?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CouchDB
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tantek what is PouchDB?
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bigbluehat O.o
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PouchDB
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bigbluehat o.O
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bigbluehat this needs fixing for sure :)
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tantek what is Tiddly?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Tiddly" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tiddly
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bigbluehat what is Tiddler
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Tiddler" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tiddler
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bigbluehat what is Tiddler?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Tiddler" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tiddler
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bigbluehat oh...works without the ?
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ShaneHudson One more o.O and I was going to ask if bigbluehat is a bot :P
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bigbluehat haha
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bigbluehat not today ;)
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Loqi hehe
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ShaneHudson Ooo!!! We need a tantek-ing bot :D
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bigbluehat ha! when did Loqi learn to laugh :)
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Loqi grins profusely
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bigbluehat nice touch
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fiatjaf someone asking the newcomers who are they
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bigbluehat we used to have "Monty" in #couchdb (> 4 years ago)
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bigbluehat it would essentially accost new comers with crazy questions or comments
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bigbluehat ...it was funny...but sadly unhelpful in the long run :-P
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bigbluehat fiatjaf: https://github.com/natevw/PeerPouch
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bigbluehat PouchDB + WebRTC
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bigbluehat what is IPFS?
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ShaneHudson Loqi is the first bot I have found very useful, the wiki and twitter integration is very useful
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IPFS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=IPFS
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bigbluehat what is ipfs.io?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ipfs.io" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ipfs.io
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bigbluehat ShaneHudson: what's loqi based on?
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aaronpk who is Loqi?
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bigbluehat Loqi: who made you?
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aaronpk oops
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bigbluehat haha
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aaronpk what is loqi?
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Loqi aaronpk: ben_thatmust left you a message 3 hours, 19 minutes ago: My argument as requested http://btmb.me/s/2q
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Loqi.me
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bigbluehat nice
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bigbluehat !m Loqi
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bigbluehat motivate.im support
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ShaneHudson bigbluehat: You would have to ask aaronpk :)
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bigbluehat would be nice :)
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aaronpk that's basically what the ++ is for
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bigbluehat ShaneHudson: tnx! wandering the links
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bigbluehat aaronpk: yeah, truly. !m is just funnier :)
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bigbluehat aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 583 karma
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bigbluehat plus, you don't get "so-and-so has 1 karma" sadness
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bigbluehat as it's not karma...just "nice" :)
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bigbluehat aaronpk: great work on loqi regardless...very cool
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aaronpk thanks :)
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aaronpk hm what's that twitter profile_image URL trick?
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tantek bigbluehat - re: Loqi / the wiki not knowing about those terms - CouchDB, PouchDB etc. - it's an indicator that so far they are irrelevant to the indiewebcamp community
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aaronpk I thought we had some linked from /irc-people
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tantek because if they were relevant, then someone would have documented even a simple stub article
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bigbluehat yeah...it's that which I find suprising
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tantek why? do you use them on your own site?
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bigbluehat on several sites, but not bigbuehat.com...yet
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tantek so that's why
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bigbluehat github.com/bigbluehat/blueink <-- as the CMS is being rewritten from PHP/MySQL into something actually webby ;)
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tantek they may be of use to others, but not indieweb
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tantek you yourself are not using them on your own indieweb site
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tantek therefore, as far as you know, they are irrelevant to the indieweb
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ShaneHudson Yeah we tend to add terms once we use them on our own sites. Like I've been working on my DNS, so going to add some of that to the wiki
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bigbluehat tantek: ha! hardly
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bigbluehat it doesn't mean they have no value.
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tantek bigbluehat: re-read above
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tantek "they may be of use to others, but not indieweb"
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bigbluehat just that no one here's seen it yet ;)
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tantek no value until proven
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ShaneHudson bigbluehat: Not that they have no value, but we just don't have time to document everything there is on the web. The going slowly approach seems to work well
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tantek otherwise it's all hypothetical / theoretical
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tantek and there's too much of that to bother with
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bigbluehat oh, sure! I wasn't expecting you to docuent all the things
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bigbluehat i checked to see if someone had :)
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tantek bigbluehat - it's a value by doing
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tantek if no one is doing something, it likely has very little value
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bigbluehat tantek: sure. I'm not sure what point you're actually trying to make here
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bigbluehat I get why they're not on the wiki
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tantek that so far, there is no evidence of any value of couchdb / pouchdb to the indieweb
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tantek that's the point
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rascul if/when there is, add something about it to the wiki :)
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ShaneHudson Yup
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tantek it may be harsh, but so far, absent examples / evidence to the contrary, it is true
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bigbluehat but why be harsh?
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tantek bigbluehat: to filter noise
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bigbluehat heh
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tantek see also: email lists
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aaronpk who has the prettiest reply contexts these days?
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aaronpk it feels odd to use screenshots of my own site in this slide deck
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ben_thatmustbeme "pretties" is subjective i feel
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tantek aaronpk - that's the challenge - yours (p3k) are among the prettiest :)
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aaronpk i'm looking for subjective!
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tantek UX is subjective!
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ben_thatmustbeme mine isn't pretty
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aaronpk aw man all the indieweb examples in /reply-context have broken twitter profile images
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ben_thatmustbeme i need to work on css
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/10/11/6/
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aaronpk barnaby shows full reply context
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ShaneHudson I need to get micropub working, but keeps going on the backburner
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ShaneHudson Posting from my phone is quite annoying at the moment
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tantek aaronpk - how about the separate page?
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tantek what are reply context examples?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context-examples
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tantek faster to ask Loqi for the URL than type the URL
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aaronpk oh hey!
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tantek ooh I remember kylewm has decent examples
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tantek reply contexts
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ShaneHudson tantek: Oh dear, that has a screenshot of the tweet I sent you not realising you had @t since the beginning lol
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tantek :D
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ShaneHudson I really really like Kartik's site, a good one to use as an example of a lot of indieweb things
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aaronpk kylewm: is your site overriding command-click somehow?
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kylewm aaronpk: yeah that is broken :( i catch click events anywhere on h-entrys in the h-feed
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ben_thatmustbeme command-click = rightclick ?
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ben_thatmustbeme you can do that with JS, there are always ways around it though
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kylewm and unfortunately that sometimes means it catches both events
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aaronpk it's very frustrating when that happens
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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kylewm aaronpk: are you ctrl-clicking on the permalink?
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aaronpk yeah
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kylewm I'll try to fix that, thanks for the heads up
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tantek.com edited /reply-context-examples (+693) "dfn, add examples encouragement" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, works fine here, specific version?
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tantek what are reply context examples?
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Loqi reply context examples are real-world examples of reply-contexts on both indieweb sites and silos, how they are presented, their visual design, UI, etc http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context-examples
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aaronpk i'm on home page, command-click permalink of the first post, and it opens in a new tab and also navigates the current window
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aaronpk chrome on osx
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ben_thatmustbeme ohh, i see
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah
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@AswadCharles Why I Joined the IndieWeb Movement: http://airbornesurfer.com/2014/10/why-i-joined-the-indieweb-movement/ via @airbornesurfer (twitter.com/_/status/522776928982278144)
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aaronpk kylewm: you have two twitter syndication links here and one is 404 https://kylewm.com/note/2014/10/14/1/i-think-my-first-project-learning
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aaronpk also as far as I can tell, nobody else besides me is parsing out h-events for the reply context
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kylewm aaronpk: oops, fixed
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tantek bigbluehat: what do you use on your own site? Perhaps document that on your user page!
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aaronpk e.g. http://aaron.pk/r4Qg3
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bigbluehat tantek: right now it's an old (and sadly proprietary) PHP/MySQL implementation of BlueInk http://demo.bueinkcms.com (if you're curious)
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bigbluehat it's what I'm rewriting at http://github.com/bigbluehat/blueink
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tantek bigbluehat: definitely curious!
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bigbluehat I use CouchDB here: http://wiki.blueinkcms.com/
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bigbluehat and many other places
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bigbluehat but most of that's local :)
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bigbluehat github.com/bigbluehat/sprung is nearly ready--check the "browsing" branch
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bigbluehat it's partly a re-implementation of springpad.com (which I dearly miss) and partly an implemenation of an older idea--which lead me to love springpad.com...while it lasted
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bigbluehat tantek: but yeah, I'll update my page on the indie web wiki :)
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tantek great! I'll help with an h-card at the top and then leave the rest to you :)
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tantek check out others' user pages for examples of what they're "Using" "Working On" for the personal site, as well as "Other Interests"
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tantek.com edited /User:Bigbluehat.com (+28) "h-card for personal site link" (view diff)
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bigbluehat cool will do :)
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bigbluehat fwiw, my site is IndieAuth compat
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bigbluehat and supports userinfo.me :)
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bigbluehat ...think it's the only one so far ;)
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tantek indeed! as you've used IndieAuth to login to the wiki :)
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bigbluehat it doesn't use the custom UserInfo header, though...yet.
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bigbluehat oh, right! ;)
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bigbluehat forgot...
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bigbluehat been a bit
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tantek speaking of which
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tantek you can now update your entry on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people to include an image!
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bigbluehat k. lunch time here
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bigbluehat bbl
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tantek bigbluehat: see https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-16#bottom for example!
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tantek ok - enjoy!
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fiatjaf anyone using webfinger?
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tantek fiatjaf - not really, maybe a few? Originally it was completely ignored because no one needed it for their own indieweb site.
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fiatjaf tantek: is there a consensus on what people should do about that?
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tantek about what?
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kylewm !tell pierre-o it looks like your indieauth is working now?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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fiatjaf about how to get info from users
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fiatjaf info from people based on their email/domain
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ben_thatmustbeme did write up my whole why to not use TOTP as single factor auth
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tantek.com edited /WebFinger (+2) "/* IRC Transcript */ update IRC conversation permalink. yay milliseconds" (view diff)
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fiatjaf or (can it be?) some specific page on a domain
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 25 karma
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tantek fiatjaf - yes using their h-card on their site
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ben_thatmustbeme or at least why its not as secure
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-reply-context-2014-10-16.png "example reply context from kylewm.com"
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ben_thatmustbeme fiatjaf, for example http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://ben.thatmustbe.me/ parses my microformats for that page
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reedstrm bigbluehat: some of us are very aware of that(those?) tech, just not yet seen their utility in an indieweb context. Don't need a Ferrari to get to the corner store ...
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reedstrm (sorry, reading scollback)
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reedstrm I am surprised tiddler/fedwiki's not here, though. Yet. I looked at those a looong time ago, played around w/a tiddler on a stick for note taking.
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Pierre-O @kylewm just tried right now.. Nope.. I really don't know what's happening.. Would like to help, but don't know where to start..
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tantek.com edited /WebFinger (+77) "expand definition to explain functionality, superseded by, move unix naming origins to another sentence/para" (view diff)
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reedstrm performance eventually tanked. But that was a long time ago - hardware (and borwsers and JS engines) are all much faster now ...
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tantek reedstrm: fedwiki is here - just needed a redirect.
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kylewm.com edited /reply-context-examples (+154) "/* Kyle Mahan */ add example from my site" (view diff)
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tantek fedwiki was started at IndieWebCamp 2011!
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tantek what is fedwiki?
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Loqi The Smallest Federated Wiki is an open source project led by Ward Cunningham to produce a wiki that federates using fork history, and was created & launched at the first IndieWebCamp in 2011 in Portland http://indiewebcamp.com/fedwiki
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reedstrm Ah good. Yeah, I knew that. Need more caffeine!
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tantek sometimes when what is fails it just means we need a redirect.
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fiatjaf ben_thatmustbeme: it fails here: http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me
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fiatjaf ben_thatmustbeme: while this succeeds http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmowens.com and this fails http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmowens.com (same url)
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kylewm Pierre-O: I don't have an explanation yet, but try with "www" -- http://www.pierre-o.fr
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reedstrm (been fighting the poodle and other ssl infelicities all morning)
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks fiatjaf, i don't have a note about me, and i don't plan to add my email
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kylewm Pierre-O: it might be related to http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#Why_is_IndieAuth_and_GitHub_Pages_not_playing_nicely.3F
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Pierre-O @kylewm cool ;) \o/ Perfect! It's working, thanks a lot!
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Pierre-O I do not use GHpages anymore
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like pin13 doesn't follow redirects
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ben_thatmustbeme http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmowens.com does
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ben_thatmustbeme does work that is
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kylewm Pierre-O: ah interesting, please file an issue when you have a chance https://github.com/aaronpk/indieauth
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kylewm normally i'd bug aaron in the channel but I think he is getting ready for a presentation :)
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fiatjaf ben_thatmustbeme, tantek: so why do you use these h-cards? when commenting on each others' blogs you paste your domain so they know who are you?
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ben_thatmustbeme fiatjaf, h-cards makes a simple way to identify "Me" if someone replies to my post and they want to pull in my icon and homepage link, they can, likewise if someone comments on my post, I know how to pull in their name / icon / url etc
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ben_thatmustbeme it makes reply context possible across sites like this https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/10/11/6/
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ben_thatmustbeme lots prettier than mine http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context-examples
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Pierre-O @kylewm thanks, it's done ;)
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kylewm Pierre-O++
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Loqi Pierre-O has 1 karma
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:mko-checkin-example-2014-10-15.png "example of a check in post from mowens.com"
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kylewm.com edited /checkin (+221) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add mko with screenshot" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /checkin (+26) "/* = Michael Owens */ add clearing div" (view diff)
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bear Pierre-O++
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Loqi Pierre-O has 2 karma
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kylewm.com edited /checkin (+7) "/* = Michael Owens */ ugh fixing typos" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /checkin (+6) "/* Michael Owens */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /indie.js (+22) "redirect to proper capitalization" (view diff)
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kylewm !tell barnabywalters It doesn't look like I'm getting webmentions from you, any idea why?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bigbluehat reedstrm: I believe you are the first person I know of to call CouchDB a Ferrari :)
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bigbluehat it's usually likened to a Honda Accord: http://nolanlawson.com/2013/11/15/couchdb-doesnt-want-to-be-your-database-it-wants-to-be-your-web-site/
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bigbluehat ^_^
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bigbluehat due to its dependability, etc.
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bigbluehat and perhaps thrifty seat cover choices
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tantek bigbluehat: re: "it wants to be your web site" - do you know anyone that is using couchdb as their primary content store on their personal site? Perhaps invite them here?
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bigbluehat yeah, I'll ask around!
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bigbluehat tantek: this page and list are a bit stale, but it's a decently long list for it's age: http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/CouchDB_in_the_wild#line-94
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bigbluehat the BBC used it for a few years. :) and NPR does last I heard
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bigbluehat not for their entire site, though.
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tantek am going to assume "in the wild" is too noise filled to actually find individuals with their own websites
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bigbluehat sorry...didn't understand that.
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tantek from above
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tantek "their primary content store on their personal site"
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bigbluehat yeah, I'll ask around.
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bigbluehat tantek: is there some metric you're after? like "uses couchdb and support X IndieWeb tech"?
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bigbluehat or just "is used for personal web site" (vs. company, etc)?
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tantek "their primary content store on their personal site" is a good start
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tantek and then we can start asking the harder questions like
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tantek do the developers of couchdb actually use it *themselves* as their primary content store on their personal site
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tantek ?
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tantek AKA how well is couchdb selfdogfooded?
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gregorlove.com edited /WebFinger (-1) "using/uses" (view diff)
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tantek per http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood
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ben_thatmustbeme hey tantek, based on the talks of mobile UI and the contact info at IWC, i have started moving type creation for my MP client to its own page each, and once I'm finished I'll have a folder / screen with just MP client buttons.
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tantek what is MP?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "MP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=MP
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bigbluehat tantek: yeah, the "personal" site question is interesting. I know http://writing.jan.io/ does. jchris.net did (seems his hosting account's expired). and other's I've heard of in the past do
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bigbluehat it's just not always easy to tell without asking the people directly :)
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bigbluehat because varnish
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bigbluehat etc
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tantek what is varnish?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "varnish" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=varnish
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ben.thatmustbe.me created /MP (+22) "redirect" (view diff)
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bigbluehat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varnish_%28software%29
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ben_thatmustbeme what is mp
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bigbluehat reverse proxy
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/MP
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tantek bigbluehat: that would be good to document (which devs have which couchdb sites and not) on the /CouchDB page (or whatever is the canonical capitalization)
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bigbluehat it's CouchDB
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bigbluehat Apache CouchDB to be specific :)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /MP (+0) "Redirected page to [[Micropub]]" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme what is MP
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Loqi Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients http://indiewebcamp.com/MP
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cr who has Irmin-backed sites? http://openmirage.org/blog/introducing-irmin
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tantek cr what do you use on your site?
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tantek and what is your personal site?
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tantek what is Irmin?
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snarfed tantek: i think we discussed this last night :P
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Irmin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Irmin
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tantek cr, looks like no one here uses Irmin.
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arcatan irmin looks interesting, though
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bigbluehat what is filesystem?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "filesystem" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=filesystem
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bigbluehat tantek: looks like no one here uses the filesystem either ;)
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finchd what is flatfile?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "flatfile" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=flatfile
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+16) "filesystem" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /flatfile (+26) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /filesystem (+26) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is filesystem?
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Loqi File Storage is the practice of storing main (primary) site content in flat files in a filesystem http://indiewebcamp.com/filesystem
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tantek there you go bigbluehat
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tantek now your turn, create a page on /CouchDB
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bigbluehat haha!
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bigbluehat on it ;)
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tantek and finchd - your turn, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek hello mlncn!
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ben_thatmustbeme hey mlncn
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tantek nice meeting you at IndieWebCampCambridge this past weekend!
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bigbluehat tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/2012/Guest_List##CouchDB <-- personal site using CouchDB...reference circa 2012 :)
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bigbluehat so the existence of a wiki page != usage by the community
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tantek but the absence thereof does indicate not only lack of usage, but lack of interest (worse)
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bigbluehat of interest in documenting things on the wiki
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bigbluehat not much else.
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tantek sure - it could also indicate lack of interest in collaboration - but that's good to know too
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tantek good find nonetheless - appears that there may be one indieweb community member that uses CouchDB on their site - since we don't know for sure
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bigbluehat.com created /Apache_CouchDB (+240) "Add Apache CouchDB page" (view diff)
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bigbluehat tantek: check it ^^
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bigbluehat tantek: nah, we just can't keep narrowing "collaboration" to anything smaller than "the Web" :)
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tantek.com edited /Apache_CouchDB (+5) "-dup heading, +dfn" (view diff)
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bigbluehat tnx ^^ :)
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tantek bigbluehat: sure, collaboration in this community
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finchd tantek: sinxe hte last time you asked me that, i've: bought a domain, paid for hosting... I've yet to relearn HTML form scratch or make any content, so no IndieAuth for me...
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tantek.com edited /Apache_CouchDB (+10) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek finchd - you can copy paste some html from https://indieauth.com/setup
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tantek that should get you started!
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bigbluehat what is CouchDB
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CouchDB
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tantek I can help with that
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tantek.com created /CouchDB (+28) "r" (view diff)
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bigbluehat tnx!
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bigbluehat didn't know how to make a redirect
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tantek what is CouchDB?
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Loqi Apache CouchDB (aka CouchDB) is a Document Storage Database with a straightforward HTTP API and the ability to do stateless master-master replication over (interruptible) HTTP connections http://indiewebcamp.com/CouchDB
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tantek what is couchdb?
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Loqi Apache CouchDB (aka CouchDB) is a Document Storage Database with a straightforward HTTP API and the ability to do stateless master-master replication over (interruptible) HTTP connections http://indiewebcamp.com/CouchDB
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bigbluehat nice! tnx tantek
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tantek well done Loqi :)
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Loqi who, me?
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bigbluehat what is PouchDB?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PouchDB" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PouchDB
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bigbluehat on it! ;)
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tantek bigbluehat: and now you do! (know how to make a redirect)
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bigbluehat waith....not quite...how'd you make the redir?
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finchd tantek++ will do after work
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Loqi tantek has 100 karma
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finchd ! hit one hundred!
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tantek woot!
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Loqi :D
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shaners tantek--
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Loqi tantek has 99 karma
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shaners ha!
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shaners just kidding,
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shaners tantek++
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bigbluehat !m tantek
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bigbluehat ^^ see ;) useful ;)
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tantek finchd - great! plenty of folks here to help step by step with adding to your website
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shaners tantek++
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tantek bigbluehat++ for starting the docs on CouchDB
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Loqi bigbluehat has 1 karma
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bigbluehat ha! tnx ;)
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gRegor` tantek++
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Loqi too much karma!
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shaners LOQI I DIDNT MEAN IT. LET ME ++ AGAIN.
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finchd heh
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gRegor` No such thing, Loqi!
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reedstrm Loki won't let you play those games ... :-)
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shaners NOOOOOOOO
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shaners Did I break Loqi?
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bigbluehat if you all are into karma systems, checkout https://github.com/project-bitmark/
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gRegor` Nah, Loqi just rate limits karma
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bigbluehat.com created /PouchDB (+178) "Add PouchDB page" (view diff)
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bigbluehat tantek: think I did that one betta
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gRegor` What is PouchDB?
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Loqi PouchDB is an open-source JavaScript database inspired by Apache CouchDB that is designed to run well within the browser http://indiewebcamp.com/PouchDB
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tantek looks good!
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bigbluehat fab!
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ben_thatmustbeme phew, broke webmention support this morning it looks like
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ben_thatmustbeme i was playing more with vouch support
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tantek bigbluehat: perhaps add a == Selfdogfood == section to /CouchDB noting what you said above about which of its devs are using on their personal sites
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ben_thatmustbeme I think i'm pretty close to being able to send with vouches
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ben_thatmustbeme just by default;
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tantek nice ben_thatmustbeme !
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm going to take it out of my UI i think, just assume it can find it based on the page its given, the base url / homepage (if different) and any rel=me links that are internal to the site
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tantek perhaps leave it in for debugging for now?
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tantek until more receivers have their end working?
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ben_thatmustbeme true, my end point just won't use the one its given
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ben_thatmustbeme but i now have my whitelist public so that people can easily use that method to find a link on my site (if its published in that list, not all are)
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mko kylewm: Thanks for the comments regarding my checkins. :-)
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mko I still have to figure out how to display posted imagery better with them, though. Right now, I just have photos appended below the map.
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mko i.e. https://mowens.com/checkins/2014/09/15/1/
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mko Thinking I might have to restructure some to do something like what Foursquare does on its pages with photos.
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ben_thatmustbeme mko, i can't actually tell where that is though unless I know the area. I can't find a way to zoom out the map
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ben_thatmustbeme or even tell what country it is
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tantek mko++ - great work you've been doing there. seriously amazing indieweb design stuffs :)
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Loqi mko has 10 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme it does look beautiful though
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ben_thatmustbeme mko++
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Loqi mko has 11 karma
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mko That's okay, ben_thatmusbeme. I've got a lot more to do with it now that I've backfilled my site with all my previous Foursquare checkins.
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ben_thatmustbeme cool
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tantek mko - you've imported all your previous checkins?!? whoa
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mko Yep. All 2900 of them.
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tantek that definitely deserves some documentation on /Foursquare on how you did it
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ben_thatmustbeme i've been thinking about going through and backfilling all my old text messaging / AIM history once i get private messaging really worked out
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tantek maybe in an == Export == section
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mko I've also imported all 76,000 Last.fm listens.
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tantek !!!
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ben_thatmustbeme WOW
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tantek aaronpk - you've got some competition! ;)
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@rtaibah Kullect is shutting down #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/522808454096777216)
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ben_thatmustbeme mko++ 7000
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tantek what is Kullect?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Kullect" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Kullect
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mko Hm. Never even heard of Kullect before.
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tantek mko - what's a permalink to an example indieweb "listen" or "scrobble" on your site?
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mko Technically, I haven't figured out a good way to POSSE my Last.fm activities, so they're still PESOS (though I did post a manual one just to ensure that I could do it without having to PESOS).
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ben_thatmustbeme kullect: future entry for /site-deaths
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ben_thatmustbeme another silo
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mko https://mowens.com/data/2014/10/16/1/take-me-to-church-album-version
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mko That's an example of what they look like right now. Again, now that I've got tons of data, I'm seeing what I can do to improve the visual design of the listens.
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tantek mko you're blowing me away - this is so good
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tantek what is a listen?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "listen" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=listen
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tantek what is a scrobble?
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Loqi A scrobble is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track) that you have listened to http://indiewebcamp.com/scrobble
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gRegor` I like your "from" on notes, mko "From the Internet" https://mowens.com/notes/2014/07/09/1/what-is-the-best-use-of-typography-youve-seen-on-the-web-or-a-mobile-application-in-the-last-six-months-typography-design
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gRegor` mko++
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Loqi mko has 12 karma
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mko If you look at the HTML structure, each of the data elements has a p-* with the Musicbrainz ID of the various Tracks and Albums where it's available.
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ben_thatmustbeme i misread that a a Scoble
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tantek.com created /listen (+22) "r since scrobble is more often used (for now)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /scrobble (+26) "dfn AKA listen" (view diff)
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mko Thanks, gRegor`. I wanted a good way of denoting that I didn't want a lot of my posts directly tied to locations, but I liked the idea of being able to segment them as a separate type of "location."
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gRegor` Even caching album images locally? Nice
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gRegor` needs to get time to get back to work on my site
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mko Yeah. It annoyed me that Last.fm served images without HTTPS, so I cached the imagery for every track. I need to run a checksum comparison of images to remove duplicate files at some point.
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tantek.com edited /scrobble (+239) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Michael Owens" (view diff)
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mko And when I imported Foursquare, I imported all of my posted photos, likes, and comments, though the likes and comments haven't been converted into IndieWeb mentions yet.
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ben_thatmustbeme wow, mko you have really gone all out with imports, thats is excellent.
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tantek.com edited /scrobble (+382) "details" (view diff)
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mko And now I've got a push endpoint on my site, so anytime I check-in on Foursquare through the app, it'll check me in via my site as well. If I check in via my site, it'll check me in via Foursquare and ignore the push response for the checkin (so I don't get duplicate checkins).
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+268) "stub Export" (view diff)
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mko ben_thatmustbeme: I used to run a startup that was called Notion which was all about democratization of your personal health data. I've got so much more to import that it's not even funny. I have something like 2 TB of photo data that I want to figure out how to expose on my site, around half a million non-Foursquare location data points, millions of biomarkers, and my entire genetic sequence.
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ben_thatmustbeme WOW!
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ben_thatmustbeme entire gene sequence should be interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme i am just wishing there was some notification system for plays in Google Music so I could just push it all to my site
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+690) "new POSSE section" (view diff)
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mko Yeah. I've already got a few visualizations working locally, but figuring out how to expose them publicly is proving to be a challenge. It's over 30MB of text data. Probably going to have to splice it (no pun intended) up into each chromosome.
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ben_thatmustbeme heh
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mko ben_thatmustbeme: PESOS from Last.fm
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mko They have a Google Music scrobbler.
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tantek mko - if you have a moment to braindump how you did the Foursquare export/import - http://indiewebcamp.com/Foursquare#Export
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mko https://github.com/mko/mowens.com-public/blob/master/scripts/foursquare-to-file.js
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mko Converts everything to files.
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mko https://github.com/mko/mowens.com-public/blob/master/scripts/foursquare-file-to-hentry.js converts everything to h-entries.
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mko :-)
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mko I live in public, my friend.
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, interesting *installs Scrobbler*
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tantek what is Last.fm?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Last.fm" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Last.fm
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tantek what is Google Music?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Music" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Google+Music
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mko How do you do an ordered list in wiki markup?
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mko Just use HTML?
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ben_thatmustbeme i think its # at the start of a line
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ben_thatmustbeme just from memory
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+299) "/* Export */ scripts" (view diff)
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mko Yep. Thanks!
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mko ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 26 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, last update to last.fm before now was in 2011
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ben_thatmustbeme thats going to change fast
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mowens.com edited /Foursquare (+848) "/* Export details */" (view diff)
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@Freerange_Inc @mcphoo @bonnienardi @AndreaWiggins trust you're all familiar with the #indieweb and in particular @indie and the recent indie tech summit? (twitter.com/_/status/522814545438707713)
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mko Oops. I apparently broke my site search.
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mko Not sure when that happened.
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone doing PESOS from last.fm? and how are you doing it?
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ben_thatmustbeme i can do an import for all my last.fm history, despite the huge gap... i wonder what other things have data like that on them... hmm
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fiatjaf ben_thatmustbeme: here's something http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/3080/how-can-i-export-track-scrobble-data-from-last-fm
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fiatjaf but I am not doing. I'm interested in learn how are you doing and how can I stop scrobbling to last.fm and start scrobbling to my domains.
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gRegor` Last.fm Scrobbler now supports Last.fm?
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gRegor` Er
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gRegor` drinks more coffee.
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gRegor` Last.fm Scrobbler now supports Google Music?
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gRegor` There. Nailed it.
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gRegor` I'd seen some unofficial javascript that scrobbled from Google Music, but hadn't tried it.
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gRegor` And http://scroblr.fm/
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gregorlove.com created /Last.fm (+162) "stub" (view diff)
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cr scroblr is a good vector from breaking free of last.fm
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cr kinda sohcked it doesnt have some generic POST-handler for alternate update locations, but source is on github
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gregorlove.com edited /scrobble (+72) "origin of term" (view diff)
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fiatjaf what is last.fm
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Loqi Last.fm is a silo for tracking music listening and providing music recommendations http://indiewebcamp.com/Last.fm
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gregorlove.com created /last.fm (+21) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` cr: Cool. Do you use scroblr.fm? Want to add it to the wiki?
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@mcphoo RT @BillSeitz: FreePress is guaranteed only to those who own one. #IndieWeb https://gigaom.com/2014/10/08/for-better-or-worse-twitter-and-facebook-are-the-guardians-of-free-speech-now/ (twitter.com/_/status/522824011751763969)
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Mark87 bigbluehat ooo that userinfo.me stuff looks very cool
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Mark87 I love when people come up with new uses for http
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bigbluehat Mark87: thanks! :)
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bigbluehat it's what I do. :)
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bigbluehat here's another relify.com
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bigbluehat those curl commands on userinfo.me work, btw ;)
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Mark87 weird. will someone mention me again. my client crashed when bigbluehat mentioned me
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bigbluehat Mark87: bye, Mark :)
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Mark87 well im still here
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Mark87 that's weird
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bigbluehat hi Mark87 !
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bigbluehat ...very
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Mark87 i'll just blame it on windows10
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Mark87 are there any microdata or rdf users here that have opinions on microformats and pros and cons or anything they feel like sharing?
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kylewm that is a very open-ended question Mark87
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Mark87 i'm looking for open ended answers ;)
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kylewm what are you trying to do, what do you want to use microdata or rdf for?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you trying to do, what do you want to use microdata or rdf for" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+trying+to+do%2C+what+do+you+want+to+use+microdata+or+rdf+for
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kylewm Loqi!
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Loqi is done
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Mark87 I want to make my pages a bit more machine readable so I can implement some ideas I have. i'm just looking for experiences or opinions to think about as I decide what syntax I want to use
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KevinMarks http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/16/twitpic-couldnt-find-an-acquirer-will-shut-down-after-all-on-oct-25th/
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Mark87 I can start the conversation though. I have been a quiet fan of microdata for a long time now, what with schema.org, although i have an idea that goes in a slightly different direction than that. But at the same time, microformats have more traction, and really they are more useful than microdata because they are also css hooks
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kylewm the nice thing (to me) about mircoformats is that they just to attempt to mark up the content that is already there
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Mark87 I recently wondered whether you couldn't replicate the machine-readableness i'm after with link tags with some sort of rel=context attribute like json-ld has
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Mark87 well to the same extend microformats markup data so too does microdata
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Mark87 extent*, and im sure rdfa for that matter, although i have no experience with it
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scor rdfa does too
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gRegor` I have no experience with microdata or rdfa, but I like mf2 for the minimal markup, in attributes ('class') I'm already using.
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fiatjaf I have bad prejudices against rdf or anything using xml, but I like triplestores, and every search for "triplestore" on google will return information about rdf.
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gRegor` What is triplestore?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "triplestore" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=triplestore
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gRegor` microdata is schema.org, right? Or is it a more general term?
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Mark87 microdata is part of the html5 spec and is a syntax for putting attributes in html tags that carry meaning
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Mark87 schema.org is a library of objects that the major search engines can read from microdata embedded in indexed websites
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scor schema.org is a library of objects that the major search engines can read from microdata, RDFa or JSON-LD embedded in indexed websites
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gRegor` Ah
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gRegor` Personally, for my site, I'm more interested in interop with other people's sites, not so much search engines.
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tantek on the indieweb, tommorris has experimented with all three, microformats, microdata, and rdfa
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Mark87 gRegor as am I
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tantek gRegor`, Mark87 indeed - that was one of the big lessons learned with "classic" microformats.
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Mark87 h-* could just as easily be microdata, or rdfa encoded
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gRegor` Sure, but why?
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tantek That if we assume search engines are the use-case then we end up waiting a long time for them, and then giving them too much power.
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tantek thus with microformats2, and indiewebcamp, we're focusing on immediately beneficial use-cases, peer to peer
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tantek rather than waiting for any large sites
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danlyke I think the lengths that modern search engines are going through to parse English and understand context shows that if you provide the data, search engines will find ways to use it.
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danlyke Conversely, if you let search engines drive your page content, you get SEO.
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tantek danlyke - both very accurate observations IMO
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mko danlyke++
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Loqi danlyke has 9 karma
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danlyke yeah, the counter to that is that you have to have *an* application in order to justify markup, but I think inclusion of inbound links (even if I'm still skeptical about the notification mechanism) is a good application, and that gives microformats2 a leg up.
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KartikPrabhu_ Mark87: just to add a small nit, ant html attribute can be a css hook so nothing special about mf2 using classes there
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tantek KartikPrabhu_: except that there's a big difference between "can be" and "is in practice"
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu i don't know if i knew that or not. unfortunately a bunch of data- prepended attributes will be ugly and inelegant
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tantek KartikPrabhu_: therefore "nothing special" is false
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tantek there's plenty special about working with the way developers already work (using class names)
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KartikPrabhu__ oh hey
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tantek in fact, that's a pretty big deal, and a big difference between the way we design things for microformats / indieweb, and a lot of the theoretical academic junk out there
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KartikPrabhu__ tantek: I meant nothing special wrt CSS hooking
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Mark87 what i want to experiment with is adding "actions" to microformats
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tantek again, no
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tantek practical CSS hooking >>>>> theoretical CSS hooking ability
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tantek practical > theoretical is plenty special
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KartikPrabhu__ hey many people use data-* in CSS now so...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: many people use many HTML attributes
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tantek that doesn't mean they are using them for CSS hooks
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Mark87 so you're not just marking up "Here is the author's name", "here is the content of the post", "here is x data". I want to also say "here is a url where you can POST a reply to the post", "here is a url where you can rsvp to the event", etc
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KartikPrabhu__ i meant for CSS
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tantek this is the same "special" that is the difference between theory that is evidence (practice) backed, vs. just theory (in science)
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tantek pretty darn special
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tantek as a scientist, you should appreciate that a lot!
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tantek we're doing science here, not just math.
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KartikPrabhu__ I like that mf2 uses classes because classes are simpler
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KartikPrabhu__ rather than all the new property and other stuff RDF has
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu__ that's exactly the sort of response i was looking for when i asked my original question. Now someone has to say something like "But you can't do X with microformats but you can with rdfa"
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tantek Mark87 - there's plenty such theoretical X
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KartikPrabhu__ so mf2 using classes -> simpler to write
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tantek but nothing in practice in *actual* end-user use-cases
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: one X i have heard to represent arbitrary graph like data, but I haven't needed to do that yet, except to write arbitrary graph like data
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tantek which is, a tautology
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KartikPrabhu__ yup
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Mark87 i don't understand why you couldn't do that in microformats
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Mark87 even if it might be less elegant a syntax for that sort of expression
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: because mf2 parsing happens like a tree
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KartikPrabhu__ this web based beta version of logs is so awesome :P
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KartikPrabhu__ aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 584 karma
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Mark87 i can use some sort of reference to refer to other graph nodes
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Mark87 probably a url
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: you could add to mf2 syntax to do that, but that has not been useful so far
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KartikPrabhu__ I see no use for it except to use it
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KartikPrabhu__ like a textbook excercise
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu_ You've seen people hooking data- attributes in CSS? :;shakes head::
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KartikPrabhu__ gregor`: yes... and I have done this for marginalia myself because the js used data-* anyway
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gRegor` Hmm
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gRegor` I think there should be a more stable way to do that with existing DOM elements+classes
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KartikPrabhu__ maybe. but adding/removing classes with JS is a nightmare
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KartikPrabhu__ because clases are multi-valued
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gRegor` Or maybe I'm wrong. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/HTML/Using_data_attributes#CSS_Access ::shrug::
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tantek KartikPrabhu: adding/removing classes with JS is a nightmare - not true! there are methods for that now!
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tantek DOM methods
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KartikPrabhu__ gregor`: yeah you can CSS hook to any HTML attribute
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gRegor` Just feels weird to use an attribute that is not intended for visibility to style the element.
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gRegor` I knew you "can", just wasn't convinced it's a good idea.
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gRegor` bye/wb/bye/wb KartikPrabhu_
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KartikPrabhu__ sorry logged out accidently from web client
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tantek gRegor`: hence theory ("can") vs. practice ("do")
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KartikPrabhu__ tantek: these are some new JS methods and not sure they can used in older browsers
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KartikPrabhu__ the methods to manipulate classes I mean
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KartikPrabhu__ i try to write very stupid js for that reason
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tantek.com created /negging (+29) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` stupid.js
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kylewm i like diy.js http://diy.lab.io/
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kylewm i mean it is a joke http://diy.lab.io/js/diy.js
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct (+76) "dfn, p-summary" (view diff)
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mowens.com edited /code-of-conduct (+39) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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Mark87 hmm one negative to microformats is the possibility of false positives because developers may use keyword class names in non-microformat webpages. Avoiding this introduces the annoying requirement to prepend keywords with u-/h-/etc prefixes
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cr ya raw DOM API aint that bad anymore inom
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tantek.com created /CoC (+29) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` Haha, kylewm
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cr certainly vs 800K of enterprise-grade factorycreatorfactory-angular-scaffolding
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: no the rpefixes are used by the parsering algorithm. they are not just namespace decorations
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gRegor` The mf2 prefixes also provide important information for how to parse
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KartikPrabhu__ uggh me English, so bad
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aaronpk mko: you imported 76000 last.fm scrobbles?! dang you beat me to it!!
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aaronpk also interesting permalink choice for venues! (https://mowens.com/entries/at/ocean-beach)
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aaronpk dangit now I've got some serious catching up to do!
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KartikPrabhu__ is
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aaronpk oops that's still broken
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aaronpk sorry KartikPrabhu__
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KartikPrabhu__ hmm ha the me breaks on web chat
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aaronpk scrobbling is one of my longer-opened issues https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/16
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@joeld @jtauber https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/6329/ (twitter.com/_/status/522843815288135681)
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mko Thanks, aaronpk. :)
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mko I've got streaming auto-scrobbling as well as manual syndicated scrobbling. I couldn't figure out how to permalink to a Last.fm syndicated scrobble, though, so I'm not officially syndicating. I'm technically "duplicating"
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aaronpk scrobbles don't have permalinks?
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tantek neither do Favorites on Twitter
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aaronpk but you're still basically doing PESOS from last.fm right?
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Mark87 all the homebrew website meetups are so far away from me, is there anyone in the st Louis area?
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gRegor` Chicago is just 5 hours! ;)
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Mark87 gRegor indeed, i have thought about it
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tantek Mark87 - for generic microformats questions / issues (e.g. "possibility") unrelated to any specific practical indieweb usage, feel free to ask in #microformats
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tantek Mark87 re: St. Louis HWC, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings - maybe someone else from St. Louis will find you!
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gRegor` Mark87: You should add your interest for STL here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings
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Mark87 @tantek i'll keep that in mind. i see some of the same people are involved
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tantek gRegor`: jinx :)
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gRegor` Out-tanteked!
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gRegor` Don't mess with the master
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tantek steps away, his job is done.
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gRegor` :)
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gRegor` tantek: Know if MN has been keeping up with HWC meetups?
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gRegor` And should we remove the "TBD"s from http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club ?
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markmurfin.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+50) "/* Up-and-coming Meetings */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Under "Where"
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tfontaine gRegor` Semper ubi sub ubi.
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tantek gRegor`: not sure about MSP, and yeah, likely remove TBDs that you know the outcome of
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gRegor` I have no idea the outcome of MSP. Wasn't sure if you were still in contact with them.
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tantek I am - I can ask :)
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gRegor` tfontaine: Translate? #lazyweb
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tfontaine Always where under where
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gRegor` Lulz
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gregorlove.com edited /Ghost (+47) "Indieweb Examples section" (view diff)
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gRegor` tfontaine: You should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/Ghost#Indieweb_Examples
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke created /RAID (+280) "Creating something to fix" (view diff)
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anomalily I'm looking for this too, actually, because I want to steal CSS
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+17) "strongly emphasize "primary long-term storage"" (view diff)
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kylewm anomalily: what are you looking for? (i.e. that you want to steal CSS from)
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Mark87 what features do people like in their indie feed readers? or do you even use them?
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tantek Mark87, check out /reader
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anomalily Hey all, aaronpk needs to get off IRC and finish his talk for tomorrow
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anomalily LEt's shame him off IRC
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gRegor` Haha
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anomalily kylewm: Sorry, I was responding to higher up on chat logs ;)
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke edited /PostgreSQL (+486) "/* Dan Lyke */ Adding my rebuttal to "database antipatterns"" (view diff)
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anomalily I'm looking to steal someone's pretty CSS for webmentions. Mine is pretty messy right now
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tantek anomalily: you mean for comments?
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tantek as in /comments-presentation ?
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anomalily Yea.
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tantek webmention is just plumbing ;)
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gRegor` anomalily: emmak has a nice layout http://notenoughneon.com/2014/7/26/1
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/listen/2011/8/3/52/
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ben_thatmustbeme starting to gather what data I can find
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@gRegorLove @aaronpk Stop looking at Twitter and IRC. Finish those #indieweb slides! :] (twitter.com/_/status/522854896995807232)
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aaronpk la la la la I can't hear you
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, unfortunately mysql doesn't seem to happy with my kanji input
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gRegor` Probably needs utf8mb4 instead of just utf8 charset
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gregorlove.com edited /MySQL (+402) "/* Stopwords */ === Full UTF-8 Support ===" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/listen/2012/3/25/25/ nevermind, field was still latin1 while the table was utf8
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gRegor` "Nobody should need more than 3 bytes for a character" MySQL utf8
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gRegor` Cool. Just that one field, or all fields? latin1 => utf8 can mess up some characters, if utf8 was inserted previously.
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gregorlove.com edited /Tantek-ing (+4) "wikilink 'dfn'" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme it was on all, i switched it over and re-inserted those 4 records that were messed up
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/2011/8
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ben_thatmustbeme the bold doesn't look great
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ben_thatmustbeme but its ok for now
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gRegor` Oh, only 4 records. Phew. Cool :)
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gRegor` I recommend an ALTER DATABASE to set the default to utf8
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gRegor` Otherwise I'm too likely to forget the charset in each create table sql
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme++ nice work
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 27 karma
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KartikPrabhu__ see /database-antipattern
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KartikPrabhu__ throws a bomb and ducks
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ben_thatmustbeme i think the room has become database-antipattern fight impervious at this point
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KartikPrabhu__ is happy that regulars here have learned to avoid db fights :)
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KartikPrabhu__ this was a triumph, I'm making a note here "huge success"
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KartikPrabhu__ s/triumph/trial
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Loqi KartikPrabhu__ meant to say: this was a trial, I'm making a note here "huge success"
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gregorlove.com edited /code-of-conduct (+0) "/* Consequences */ them/they, semi-colon" (view diff)
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gRegor` Meh. I know you use a database, KartikPrabhu_. :)
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gRegor` The database is a lie!
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KartikPrabhu__ i am trying to move on to my mf2-file-storage cube
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KartikPrabhu__ fwiw I had a similar MySQL encoding problem and it barfed on a emdash! luckily only 1 entry needed to be re entered
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gRegor` barfed, meaning it wouldn't insert the em dash? Or displayed the garbage characters on output?
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KartikPrabhu__ it refused the emdash as an entry in the DB because it could not be encoded in latin whatever
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gRegor` That's odd. Usually it's coerced into latin1 bytes.
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gRegor` Which is why it messes up on subsequent display. I've had to deal with a lot of latin1 to utf8 issues at work over the years, heh
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KartikPrabhu__ ref: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/417178161978167296
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@kartik_prabhu @adactio fixed. added your post as webmention. The emdash in your html title was causing #mysql to throw a hissy fit. (twitter.com/_/status/417178161978167296)
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gRegor` If anyone needs code to pretty safely convert, I have this for PHP https://github.com/gRegorLove/nucleus-cms-to-utf8 It's specific to Nucleus CMS, but could be generalized pretty easily.
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KartikPrabhu__ adactio uses emdash in the title :)
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gRegor` I do too
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danlyke If the connection to the database was UTF8 and the table was Latin1, the database would have to be coercing 8212(decimal) into an 8 bit number, so it'd choke on that. If the connection was Latin1 and the table was Latin1, you'd get garbage.
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KartikPrabhu__ well thankfully I fixed it
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gRegor` Actually, guess it's the html entity for it, not an actual em dash. nvm
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: iirc that was my problem too. took me a while to realise as this was my first time using any DB
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danlyke wish there was a "no, really, everything is UTF8 so stop messing with my bytes!" global (including the user's browser) setting.
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KartikPrabhu__ hence my motivation to switch to HTML+mf2 for storage.
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Mark87 is there anyone who publishes h-cards inside h-entrys?
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KartikPrabhu__ a lot of them. me for instance
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Mark87 thank you
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KartikPrabhu__ anything here https://kartikprabhu.com/notes has a h-entry > h-card
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gRegor` I do, for authorship, currently.
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gRegor` gregorlove.com and gregorlove.com/notes
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KartikPrabhu__ in fact h-feed > h-entry >h-card
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Mark87 its interesting how they can appear in different places. @tantek's appear to be h-card > h-feed > h-as-note
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Mark87 and maddening
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danlyke So does kylewm. And apparently I need to do something h-card is on my blog pages, although I have the "which identity page is this" problem there.
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gRegor` The /authorship algorithm can be a bit tricky, yeah. http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Determining
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Mark87 gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 7 karma
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: pick one. you can always change the "identity url" later
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Mark87 I knew that there would be a page for that somewhere, im going to stop asking questions and just search one of these days
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kylewm Mark87: take a look at tantek's permalink pages, that's a more apples to apples comparison with others
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tantek checks logs
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danlyke so does a p-author need to be within an h-card, or is it sufficient authorship within an h-entry?
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kylewm h-card within an h-entry needs a p-author property on it (if it's the author's card)
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kylewm otherwise it might be a reference to someone else
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kylewm e.g., https://kylewm.com/note/2014/10/06/6/a-really-great-short-history-of-twitter
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kylewm h-card on KevinMarks is child of the h-entry, but not the author
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: for authorship you need a p-author which has your name in it. if you want more info then use .p-author.h-card
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tantek Mark87 - what problem are you trying to solve?
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Mark87 i'm trying to parse the output of phpmf2 into something useable. Now I've decided the easiest way is to just convert it to RSS which I already have a robust parser for.
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danlyke So <article class="h-entry"><a class="p-author p-name" href="/archives/user.cgi?id=$author_id">$name</a> should be correct? Or do I need an h-card in that <a class="..."> too?
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: the p-name will make it the name of your h-entry
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tantek.com edited /dfn (+88) "see also start a page, note p-summary works because inside h-entry for the page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+10) "see also dfn" (view diff)
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danlyke Yep, just caught that. Thanks.
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gRegor` mf2 to RSS? Whoa.
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Mark87 just for h-entrys
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Mark87 just title, author, link, description
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KartikPrabhu__ for your case you'd want <article class="h-entry"><div class="p-author h-card"><a href="/archives/user.cgi?id=$author_id">$name</a></div>
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danlyke Yeah, because in a vcard p-name is equivalent to fn
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kylewm Mark87: maybe check out barnaby's https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf-cleaner
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tantek Mark87 "something useable" - for what use-case?
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: I think the h-card will altumatically infer a name and url for you
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danlyke Going with "p-author h-card" for now.
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Mark87 @tantek my feed reader https://feeds.xirvir.com
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danlyke On mf2 to RSS: Yeah, all of my applications for mf2 are basically RSS semantics, so that makes sense.
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tantek Mark87++ very cool!!!
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Loqi Mark87 has 0 karma
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tantek wait what?!?
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tantek who gave Mark87 negative karma?
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Mark87 lol me I believe
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tantek Loqi ought to not let people self-karma, even negatively.
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Mark87 well I didn't do it, it tried to do it, and someone else did when loqi refused
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Mark87 I tried*
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Mark87 I made a bad joke, or several
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gRegor` Mark87++ for positive karma
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Loqi Mark87 has 1 karma
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Mark87 hurray!
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gRegor` puns++
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Loqi puns has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87++ as compensation
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Loqi dude
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tantek lol
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tantek seems like I missed quite the handwringing about MySQL and UTF8
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KartikPrabhu__ oh come on Loqi be nice
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Loqi woot!
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kylewm @deprecated kylewm
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gRegor` handwringing?
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kylewm Mark87: when you say "my feed reader" do you mean the reader you use or the reader you building?
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tantek gRegor`: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-16#t1413493493715
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Mark87 kylewm building
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Mark87 and using
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kylewm ooooh
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Mark87 its now become a vicious cycle. I built it for giggles, then found myself using it, so now im building it more, which makes me use it.....
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tantek you do realize how the following does not make databases (or at least MySQL) look very good?
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tantek "Probably needs utf8mb4 instead of just utf8 charset" - wait what? why do I care as a user?
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kylewm Mark87: very well stated explanation of http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood ;)
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tantek "nevermind, field was still latin1 while the table was utf8" - wait, you have that option of hurting yourself?
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tantek "Just that one field, or all fields? latin1 => utf8 can mess up some characters, if utf8 was inserted previously." - no, seriously?
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tantek "i switched it over and re-inserted those 4 records that were messed up" - only 4 records worth of fix-up tax then?
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gRegor` I did add utf8mb4 to the /mysql
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tantek "I recommend an ALTER DATABASE to set the default to utf8" - when was the last time you had to ALTER DIRECTORY?
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KartikPrabhu__ look like tantek picked up my DB-bomb
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KartikPrabhu__ <boom>
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tantek " I'm too likely to forget the charset in each create table sql" = source of fragility
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: yup. whee!
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gRegor` Storying utf8 characters in latin1 encoding can have the same effect in a file as in a database.
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tantek "fwiw I had a similar MySQL encoding problem and it barfed on a emdash!"
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gRegor` s/Storying/Storing/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: Storing utf8 characters in latin1 encoding can have the same effect in a file as in a database.
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KartikPrabhu__ gregor`: has english encoding issues :P
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tantek gRegor`: "Storying" was correct. as in "can have" is a story, not experience. :P
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gRegor` tantek: ? Cannot parse
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tantek "can" is hypothetical, "has" and "does" is experience
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KartikPrabhu__ snarfed: while you are here, do you know if python functions can be run from other systems? I ask in anticipation of making a python mf2+HTML storage
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KartikPrabhu__ I anticipate it being a big endeavour and want to get the structure roughly sorted out
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snarfed i'm going to regret this, but i'm still curious about one thing re database-antipattern
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snarfed whenever people advocate or deep dive into specific backend tools here, we often say, "that's plumbing, we prefer to focus on end user use cases (and maybe interop) here"
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snarfed ...but we make an exception for db vs flat files, which we dive into with relish, even though it's still plumbing
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gRegor` snarfed: It's a trap!
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gRegor` ;)
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KartikPrabhu__ I think tantek has been pointing out the UX issues with DBs particularly for non-experts
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snarfed gRegor`: yeah, i got caught :P
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tantek snarfed - correct, I think I answered this before (so I should make it an FAQ), however when plumbing's unreliability/fragility becomes visible to the UX, then it's worth documenting as a source of problems.
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snarfed tantek: i guess. we go way beyond just user-visible criticism though.
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danlyke Yeah. The big reason for the rise of MySQL? Users can configure it without going all "chmod -R 0777" on shared hosting. Thus it's easier.
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snarfed er, criticism caused by user-visible bugs, etc
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KartikPrabhu__ rubs hands gleefully for DB-bombing... <excellent> ;)
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tantek snarfed, do we? pretty sure all the criticism on /database-antipattern is from a user-impact
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danlyke I'll also note that I ran a short poll after the last discussion on another channel, and got a unanimous "the database-antipatterns page turns me off from that community" from people who actively maintain their own personal web sites.
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snarfed (UX for developers doesn't count. that's plumbing debate. which is still worthwhile! we just often disavow it.)
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snarfed tantek: i was thinking more about the discussions. i haven't audited that page :P
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tantek snarfed - not UX for developers, UX for people with their own website
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: for context. were these people themselves seasoned devs?
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danlyke Yes.
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snarfed tantek: right. just confirming axioms
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tantek e.g. this is impacting UX: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/417178161978167296
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@kartik_prabhu @adactio fixed. added your post as webmention. The emdash in your html title was causing #mysql to throw a hissy fit. (twitter.com/_/status/417178161978167296)
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tantek the particular UX being a 500 error: https://twitter.com/adactio/status/417080794931159040
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kylewm danlyke: suspect you'd get a similar reaction to that poll in *this* channel.
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: yup. the problem is for beginners who just want a website
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@adactio @kartik_prabhu Iā€™m trying to send a webmention to that post (through your form) but Iā€™m getting a 500 error. My URL: http://adactio.com/journal/6620/ (twitter.com/_/status/417080794931159040)
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snarfed yup. again, i fully agree there are examples. it just hadn't seemed like they were the center of the debate
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snarfed but maybe i misinterpreted
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tantek snarfed, if it doesn't affect the UX - you're right, it's just plumbing preferences
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tantek the problems are in two categories:
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snarfed good to hear
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tantek 1) fragility = your website goes down / away / corrupted = very bad UX
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danlyke Yabbut: I suspect that class of users just want a tool they can one-click from a CPanel, or an image they can one-clilck run on a VPS.
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KartikPrabhu__ danlyke: yup! UX
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tantek 2) DBA tax = your website sucks more of your otherwise free time (also impacts your UX of using/maintaining your website since it is more demanding for non-content oriented tasks)
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KartikPrabhu__ actually CPanel is horrible UX too :P
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snarfed tantek: understood
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: re calling python fns "from other systems," not sure what you meanā€¦?
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KartikPrabhu__ the whole point is if you are a seasoned dev then you have no trouble with building a website in the first place! but for "normal" people managing and debugging a DB is a nightmare
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KartikPrabhu__ "normal" includes me
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tantek thanks snarfed, based on that I'll add it as an FAQ
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gRegor` I have experienced (at work), putting UTF-8 into an ISO-8859-1 encoded HTML file and subsequent garbage text, until I ensured our designers text editors were saving as UTF-8. It may be rare, but it's not hypothetical (to me).
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I *am* a seasoned dev and I have no time for DBA tax.
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tantek seriously, not my idea of a fun hobby
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tantek but apparently it is to some
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KartikPrabhu__ tantek: true. but it is worse for beginners
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kylewm the idea that it's easier to use the file-system than a database [needs citation]
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kylewm for anything more complex than a static site generator
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tantek it is MUCH worse for beginners. which is why it's even more ludicrous to see all the people emo-tweeting in reaction to /database-antipattern. it's as if they lack empathy for non-dev users.
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KartikPrabhu__ snarfed: If I make a python storage thingie with functions that insert and pull entries from a file system will people running PHP be able to use it on their website?
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snarfed yeah. until very recently, i still didn't understand that we meant dbs were an antipattern just for personal sites until very recently. i thought the argument was that they were bad, period
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snarfed i'm glad that's been clarified recently
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tantek snarfed - yeah, my bad for not making that clear up front
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pdurbin people are emo-tweeting?
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KartikPrabhu__ no way! pdurbin that never happens ;)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: that's kind of too high level and vague to answer. sure, yes, if your storage thingie is something lang-agnostic, e.g. txt or json or a db (duck)
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snarfed ā€¦but not if it's e.g. pickles
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tantek pdurbin - yes, 90% (made up stat) of the (re)tweets referencing /database-antipattern were emo-tweets (lacking any rational argument)
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snarfed but i'm guessing that's not what you mean?
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KartikPrabhu__ no i mean can PHP call the python function get_entry(slug) or something?
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KartikPrabhu__ maybe best to avoid thinking o this before I have some code :P
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tantek pdurbin: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%22database-antipattern%22&src=typd
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: ahhhhh got it
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snarfed what is swig
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "swig" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=swig
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KartikPrabhu__ i'm sure there is a word for that yakshaving or bikeshedding
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gRegor` bikeshaving
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tantek "Wow. Words cannot expressā€¦"
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tantek "This has got to be an elaborate trolling, otherwise all is lost for this industry"
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kylewm woohoo, someone mentioning the SWIG that I like and not http://paularmstrong.github.io/swig/
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: cross language bindings. swig is one example.
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tantek "Holy crap, someone please tell me how the writer thought any of this made any sense."
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snarfed kylewm: yow. poor naming choice for that one
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pdurbin heh. elaborate trolling
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tantek "wow, scary."
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gRegor` I'm having deja vu
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tantek "This reads like one of those hipster parodies. Please do not attend this conf on the risk that they're serious: "
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KartikPrabhu__ snarfed: this http://www.swig.org/ ?
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gRegor` database-antipattern vu
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KartikPrabhu__ I'm having deja vu
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pdurbin databases aren't all bad
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tantek "ā€œDatabases are hard, letā€™s go shopping!ā€Ā Utterly pathetic: "
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: it's not easy to use, but yes
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KartikPrabhu__ snarfed: thanks! I'll look into it :)
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tantek or just "WTF? "
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snarfed ugh, blame KartikPrabhu__ and me for the db-ap redux. sorry all
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tantek "I canā€™t even imagine the potency of the drugs they mustā€™ve been consuming "
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KartikPrabhu__ yeassss yeasss blame me! :P
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tantek "I needed a good laugh."
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gRegor` blames Canada
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kylewm KartikPrabhu__: I think snarfed is answering the quesiton you are asking, not the question you should be asking
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tantek "loooollllll"
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: or, low tech, just shell out to python
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tantek "A whole page of terrible advice."
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snarfed kylewm++ very true
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Loqi kylewm has 70 karma
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snarfed (er, shell out to python -c)
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KartikPrabhu__ kylewm: what is the question I should be asking?
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu__: Are you referring to something on the same site? If not, sounds more like an API call
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tantek oh wow I missed this before: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/512902909353152513
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@kevinmarks Hm, I post a #killalldatabases hashtag; then get hours of databasesplaining. Is "the database antipattern" the SCUM manifesto? (twitter.com/_/status/512902909353152513)
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tantek what is databasesplaining?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "databasesplaining" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=databasesplaining
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KartikPrabhu__ gregor`: yeah same site. like if you wanted to use my python code to store things
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: maybe that whatever code you need to use isn't unique to python, and it would be easier to find a php lib that implements it
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gRegor` Interesting
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pdurbin the indieweb war on databases
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gRegor` Yeah, personally I wouldn't want to cross the streams like that. :)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu__: "how would someone with a php application use my python datastore?" maybe
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snarfed KartikPrabhu__: still seems maybe too vague or yagni. maybe wait for a concrete use case?
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KartikPrabhu__ gregor`: understood :)
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KartikPrabhu__ snarfed: true!
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gRegor` Not to discourage you
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KartikPrabhu__ maybe if I just write it nicely some clever person will port it anyway :P
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tantek goes back to documenting snarfed's FAQ
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gRegor` You're storing in HTML format or?
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snarfed tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 103 karma
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kylewm KartikPrabhu__: I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm just thinking you'd want to have the python in one process and the php in another ... communicate via HTTP by default, drop down to something like protocol buffers if that turns out not to be fast enough
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KartikPrabhu__ gregor`: HTML+mf2 so technically someone with a mf2 parser can write their own thing on top to access it
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pdurbin Does indieweb lead to group think? Must we all feel the same way about databases?
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gRegor` No, pdurbin
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KartikPrabhu__ kylewm: no snark taken. I have too little knowledge of these things to even formulate the question correctly :)
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KartikPrabhu__ pdurbin: nope!
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gRegor` The /database-antipattern page (now) actually notes the community split, and that a lot of us still use databases
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KartikPrabhu__ in fact I use a mix of DB and file-storage at the moment :D
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KartikPrabhu__ hybrid-storage I call it
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gRegor` /mysql and /postgres pages both have positive experiences listed, too.
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gRegor` e.g. shaners loves postgres and uses it all the time
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gRegor` I'm fairly pro databases, have run mysql pretty smoothly since 2002
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KartikPrabhu__ pdurbin: it is good to discuss and debate these things, but it is up to you to use whatever you like
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gRegor` Most important things: make something you like and have fun.
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gRegor` That's my 2 cents
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KartikPrabhu__ is glad his DB bomb clarified some of the context fo snarfed
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pdurbin gRegor`: I haven't looked at that page in a while. I'll check out the split. Thanks.
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finchd KartikPrabhu__: probably want a REST API from your python datastore, so that all languages can use it without the interlang stuff. may not be fast enough, but own't know until you've tried. a la github.com/pdxacm/acmapi github.com/pdxacm/acmweb (which aren't in production, BTW)
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KartikPrabhu__ finchd: so REST API over HTTP yes?
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finchd yes, i don't think any non-HTTP protocol will be very useful
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finchd FTP? SSH? though I wonder if GIT:// is possible
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KartikPrabhu__ finchd: cool thanks. WIll consider that too :)
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gRegor` Sounds like a candidate for micropub
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KartikPrabhu__ gregor`: don't expand my project :P
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu__: and and a mobile app! ;)
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KartikPrabhu__ for Blackberry!
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tantek what is a Blackberry?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Blackberry" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Blackberry
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fiatjaf what is micropub
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Loqi Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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kylewm.com edited /file-storage (+43) "/* Flat file "CMS" systems in the wild */ add link to Kirby" (view diff)
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Mark87 ugh parsing mf2 is the worst
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kylewm parsing it is easy, interpreting the output is hard :)
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tantek Mark87 - why? what issues are you running into? and which parser are you using?
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tantek kylewm - for the "interpreting the output" aspects, we should document any common use-cases with specific algorithms like the /authorship algorithm
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+530) "/* FAQ */ start documenting Why discuss storage plumbing - in short: UX impact" (view diff)
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Mark87 tantek yea by parsing I meant using the output.
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danlyke yeah, my struggle is things like "I'm looking for the e-content that's underneath the h-entry but not any other h-* tags"
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Mark87 danlyke that makes me think somebody needs to write xpath for microformats
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danlyke Sorry, you lost me at "xpath" :-D
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danlyke Actually, I think a "microformats2 cookbook" would be a good start: If you're publishing a blog entry (Assumed to have an optional title, a user name and profile link, an archive link, and content), use this form. If you're parsing a reply, look for those elements as...
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finchd danlyke: "XPath, the XML Path Language, is a query language for selecting nodes from an XML document." --wikipedia
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danlyke finchd: Yes, I've used it, (he said, dryly).
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finchd notes tantek just missed a chance to shout "add to the wiki!"
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danlyke I also stand with those who say that the best tool to parse XML is "rm".
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kylewm tantek's not here
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danlyke Obviously, else there'd be a
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kylewm go crazy!
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danlyke what is XPath?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "XPath" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=XPath
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finchd hides join/parts
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danlyke Wish the wiki had more than a 45 second auth timeout...
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kylewm templates for microformatted html *kind of* defeats the purpose... it's really supposed to be possible to tack it on at the end after you have it all written and laid out how you want
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke created /XPath (+80) "Created page with "XPath is the XML Path Language, a tool for selecting nodes from an XML document."" (view diff)
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kylewm but I agree they would be nice to have as a guideline
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kylewm tantek actually uses XPath in his site code iirc
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Mark87 danlyke++
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Loqi danlyke has 10 karma
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kylewm q.v. https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.js#L958
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danlyke kylewm I'm just thinking hierarchy templates. You can put those elements wherever you want, but if you're searching for the content of a reply, the tree looks like /(h-entry)(?:h-\w+)*(e-content)/
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danlyke A blog entry will contain (h-entry).*(p-author)(p-name)
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kylewm oh sorry, i misunderstood
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kylewm yeah that's a little complicated
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kylewm h-entry may have an "author" property which may be a string or another h- object
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danlyke that's what makes parsing such a bear, and publishing equally obtuse, when mostly what we want is a semantic that looks like RSS (maybe with a few extensions, eg: GeoRSS).
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kylewm is it possible to have an RSS feed with different authors for each post?
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kylewm I was wondering that looking at the output of snarfed's instagram -> atom feed thing
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danlyke Atom has an author per entry. So, actually, a mapping of microformats to Atom would be a perfect cookbook for people wanting to mf2 enable their tools.
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danlyke Clearly there's more you can do with mf2, but a mapping to the Atom ontology would make that mostly just a matter of renaming a few CSS classes in any blogging tool.
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kylewm of course instgram-atom.appspot.com lists the author-per-entry correctly, and it's my feed reader that makes that unclear
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danlyke I suspect that your feed reader is using an RSS ontology and mapping the Atom onto that.
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kylewm that makes sense, least common denominator sort of thing
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danlyke Yeah, easy way out if you implemented the RSS bits first. I had to go find the Atom spec (once I figured out that I wasn't putting author in my RSS entries) to check, because mostly I read single author RSS, or don't care who the author is (ie: pretty much Lumberjocks.com and HomeRefurbers.com)