#indiewebcamp 2014-10-24

2014-10-24 UTC
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tantek____ Perhaps the robots.txt blocking problem is good motivation for always using a specific non-generic subdomain as it is unlikely that a later domain re-user would setup the same subdomains, and robots.txt from the main domain does not apply to subdomains.
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tantek____ Just need a name for these URLs with dates
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tantek____ We have permalinks
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tantek____ What is a datestamped permalink?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "datestamped permalink" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=datestamped+permalink
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tantek____ And then we can start collecting indieweb examples thereof
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tantek____ That's on the publishing side, for your own permalinks
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tantek____ The flip side is when you're linking to others
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tantek____ What is linkwrapping?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "linkwrapping" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=linkwrapping
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tantek____ What is datestamped linkwrapping?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "datestamped linkwrapping" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=datestamped+linkwrapping
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tantek____ Then when someone implements datestamped linkwrapping we can collect examples of that too
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tantek____ If you implement both datestamped permalinks, and hyperlinking always only to a domain, or a another datestamped permalink, or datestamped linkwrapping of others, then links both to and from your post are repairable, using any internet archive with date window based searching/lookup.
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tantek____ *posts
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tantek____ *posts
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tantek____ longevity++
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Loqi longevity has 1 karma
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tantek____ May your posts live long and prosper.
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kylewm tantek____: could you use your own posts dt-published as the search criteria, instead of gleaning it from the permalink?
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kylewm if I linked to example.com/undated-slug on 2014-10-23, then I can search the archive for something on or before that date
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tantek____ danlyke, since all the information needed is in the URL, such repairing could be completely done client side, in a browser extension.
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tantek____ kylewm the point of putting the information needed for repair into the URL is to relieve you of sole responsibility to repair the links
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tantek____ that way you or the browser or anything in between could repair
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tantek____ Once more into the air. See you later.
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kylewm safe travels
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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KevinMarks__ If you want subdomains that don't leave the house, that's what link local addressing is for (.local domains)
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KevinMarks__ You can use dns-sd and mDNS locally too without getting dns taxed
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KevinMarks__ It's pretty much what those specs were invented for
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KevinMarks__ See http://www.zeroconf.org for the history of this
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snarfed zeroconf++
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Loqi zeroconf has 2 karma
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snarfed bonjour++ (nee)
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Loqi bonjour has 2 karma
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tgbrun snarfed: Have you seen reports that the "Also on:" link for Facebook is broken on my site. the link does not have the .com as part of the address. The twitter works fine.
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snarfed tgbrun: sorry, i don't quite follow the question. have i seen reports?
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snarfed tgbrun: oh, is this using bridgy publish?
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snarfed example?
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snarfed aha, http://www.tombruning.com/?p=368
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snarfed wow, odd
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snarfed tgbrun: looks like bridgy publish returned the link ok. see bottom of https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1413937750&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyRwsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cudG9tYnJ1bmluZy5jb20vP3A9MzY4DAsSB1B1Ymxpc2gYgICAgIDkkQoM
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tgbrun snarfed: Who should I direct this issue to?, or do you think it is something I munged up on my site?
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snarfed the log says that bad facebook link was there before bridgy publish saw it. i'm guessing one of your wp plugins generated it
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snarfed maybe ask whoever writes your syndication link plugin?
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tgbrun snarfed: The syndication was through nextscripts, maybe it happens there
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snarfed tgbrun: ok, nextscripts posted it, but i'm guessing it doesn't generate the syndication links. looking at the irc logs, sounds like you use the rel-syndication plugin for that?
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snarfed probably its fault
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snarfed Jihaisse? ^^
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu why is that link continuously sending mentions? ^ kylewm snarfed?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: it's retrying because webmention.io keeps 500ing it due to a bug
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm
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snarfed https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/20
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: it's because webmention.io chokes on emoji
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kylewm so bridgy retries for ~3 days before it gives up
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KartikPrabhu yeah discovered through snarfed bug links
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kylewm lol, I missed that
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kylewm sorry
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kylewm I think I am dropping SQLite
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kylewm just learned that you can't add a foreign key to an existing table (in addition to not being able to drop or rename columns)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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GWG Good morning, #indiewebcamp.
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GWG I am contemplating a nickname cache.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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pdurbin GWG: nickname cache? not sure what you mean
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@hpk42 @aaronpk i appreciated your talk and the work you are doing with indieweb. Thanks! (twitter.com/_/status/525597160189202432)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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GWG pdurbin, it is in the wiki
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GWG Hello pfefferle
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pfefferle GWG hey hey
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Loqi pfefferle: tantek left you a message on 10/15 at 10:15am: do you have dates / citations for when spreadly and/or YIID was shutdown? can you add them to indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths ?
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GWG Long time no talk
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pfefferle indeed :)
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GWG pfefferle, I have been wanting to pick your brain
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pfefferle why that?
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GWG pfefferle , about the Webmentions plugin
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pfefferle GWG oh crap!
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GWG pfefferle, it's about the data you store in the comment meta
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GWG I've been working on the next improvement to my Indieweb Taxonomy plugin, which is profile pictures, and was thinking about storing that data in what the wiki calls a nickname cache.
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GWG pfefferle, it occurred to me that this might intersect with inbound mentions
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pfefferle my brain or the plugin?
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GWG pfefferle, the plugin. A system for author data for mentions might make sense coming and going.
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pfefferle GWG not quite sure what exactly you mean?
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GWG pfefferle, I have an open issue on semantic linkbacks plugin
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GWG pfefferle, about the caching of avatars.
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pdurbin what is nickname cache
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Loqi A nicknames cache is a way indieweb sites store information about people to improve the user experience of the site owner referring, mention, and/or linking to those people http://indiewebcamp.com/nickname_cache
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pdurbin GWG: thanks (and thanks to Loqi)
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GWG pdurbin I am bad at definitions
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Loqi you're welcome
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GWG pfefferle, I am trying to address that problem in my plugin, and I was wondering about a shared solution.
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pfefferle GWG I see… hmmm…
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GWG pfefferle, get avatar retrieves by email address
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GWG pfefferle, an Indieweb function should retrieve by url
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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GWG pfefferle, I consider your plugins upstream from mine.
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GWG pfefferle so I always want to contemplate if something brlongs upstream.
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GWG pdurbin, trying to plan my next move.
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pfefferle GWG will try to think about that… The problem is, that WordPress doesn’t provide a solution for that (as far as I know)…
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GWG pfefferle, if you overload the get avatar function entirely, can't I substitute url for email?
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pfefferle But that doesn’t help with the caching problem
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GWG pfefferle, store the data in a transient?
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GWG pfefferle, or eventually a new table?
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GWG Download and store the images?
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GWG pfefferle, I'm trying to plan the whole thing.
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GWG And build it step by step.
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GWG pfefferle if I filter get_avatar for URL, then it would interfere with your doing the same.
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pfefferle GWG It depends on your implementation
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pfefferle GWG I only check the comment-meta for a avatar url
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GWG pfefferle, yes.
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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pfefferle GWG how will you store an image in a DB?
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GWG pfefferle, but that is what I am thinking about. Your code goes directly for the comment meta. Would you accept a pull request that changes it to passing the URL to get avatar with an optional fallback?
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GWG pfefferle, I would store the image locally. The database only needs to store where the file is
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pfefferle GWG what is your usecase?
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GWG pfefferle, for which?
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pfefferle GWG for the avatar stuff. Is it something you need in one of your plugins?
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GWG pfefferle, yes.
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pfefferle GWG but what has that todo with the semantic linkbacks plugin?
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GWG pfefferle , I intend to add profile images to reply contexts.
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pfefferle but therefore you don’t need the get_avatar method do you?
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pfefferle I only use the method, because it is the only way to show custom avatats in the comments section this way
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pfefferle GWG but you will be able to add any code you want…
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pfefferle GWG you control the complete output of the reply context
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GWG pfefferle, I know.
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pfefferle no need to use get_avatar
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GWG pfefferle, I agree on that point.
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GWG pfefferle, but if I'm storing profile pictures for reply contexts, they could share data with profile pictures stored for comments
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GWG pfefferle, of course, I haven't solved the problem of how that works with back and forth comments.
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GWG pfefferle, where a post is a reply and then you reply to someone's reply to your reply.
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GWG Thus your post is both a post and a comment
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GWG pfefferle, am I overthinking this, possibly?
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pfefferle GWG if you have a nice way to store an image globally by an identifier, I would love to implement it in the get_avatar function… But I still see no need for you to use that function… Am I understanding you wrong?
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GWG pfefferle, I want to come up with that system, and add it to both plugins.
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pfefferle GWG let me summarize it… you want to build kind of a system that stores avatar urls globally that you don’t have to parse it every time?
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GWG pfefferle, yes. The wiki refers to a nickname cache, which I am thinking is the right paradigm
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GWG pfefferle, I am not in Germany though. I've never been.
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GWG pfefferle, re the global avatars, what about storing them as un privileged users?
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pfefferle GWG I thought about something similar while working on the ostatus plugin… but that could mess up your blog with a lot of users...
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GWG pfefferle, even if they have only the subscriber role?
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pfefferle You could get a lot of users...
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GWG pfefferle, would that mess anything up?
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GWG pfefferle, other than table size?
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pfefferle GWG I am not sure if it a good idea to use the user-management of WordPress to store data…
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pfefferle GWG it seems a bit messy…
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GWG But it is technically user data, but I keep going back and forth on it.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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pfefferle GWG will sleep over that idea...
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GWG pfefferle, messier than adding a custom table though?
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GWG pfefferle, thanks.
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GWG pfefferle, I want to do this the 'best' way. That is why I don't want to do it in a vacuum.
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pfefferle GWG that’s why I love this IndieWeb idea!
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pfefferle :)
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GWG pfefferle, I am dedicated to bringing Indieweb to WordPress
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@henne Webmention.io: #IndieWeb service tto easily handle webmentions by @aaronpk http://webmention.io/ (twitter.com/_/status/525645073279897600)
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GWG Does that make it IndieWebPress or IndieWordPress?
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pfefferle GWG IndiePress ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme hey all
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pfefferle hey ben_thatmustbeme
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pfefferle GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 25 karma
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GWG pfefferle, OK
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GWG Hi ben_thatmustbeme
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GWG pfefferle++
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Loqi pfefferle has 7 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone know if someone from the firefox OS team ever frequent here?
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GWG That's for indulging me
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pfefferle GWG and mine is for your nice feedback and for constantly waiting for the GitHub pull requests ;)
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GWG pfefferle, I am on my way back from vacation.
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pfefferle GWG oh vacation… that’s what I need so badly
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GWG pfefferle, it's been a busy few weeks. But I just started some planned rewrites of code
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reedstrm Don't you hate opening up a comms client and finding that last message that you failed to send, yesterday?
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reedstrm Morning all.
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, yep
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Loqi ahahaha
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reedstrm Bret: thanks, we thing so! #having lost context that's completely meaningless
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GWG Hi, reedstrm
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reedstrm hey GWG You're just geting back, I
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reedstrm m just starting vacation (tomorrow)
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GWG reedstrm, not back yet
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GWG reedstrm if you visit #indiechat, I'll ask where you are going
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ben_thatmustbeme gah, trying to figure out how to get this gaia homescreen app to run in a browser
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ben_thatmustbeme I want to just strip out the grid and drag/drop bits ... maybe keep the doc
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reedstrm what is gaia
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gaia" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gaia
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ben_thatmustbeme reedstorm, UI parts of FirefoxOS
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm basically trying to use all their code to create a page that looks and feels (and most importantly drag and drops) like the homescreen
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ben_thatmustbeme i want to get the folder creation bits, otherwise I would just start from jquery-ui or something easy
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reedstrm Ah. FirefoxOS is on my list of 'meaning to try that'.
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Loqi [mention] http://haverholm.com/2014/10/24/hello-new-silo/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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gRegor` Caught up on some of the internet archive link-fixing from yesterday. I didn't realize you could submit a page on demand to Wayback Machine, but there it is on the homepage. Cool.
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KevinMarks__ Browsers blocking bookmarklets https://medium.com/@bthdonohue/bookmarklets-are-dead-d470d4bbb626
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Deledrius That's not good. :(
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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@PentimentoFilm https://pentimentofilm.squarespace.com/about/ Pentimento is a story of #immigration and #rebirth #indiefilm #indieweb @seedandspark #immigrationreform #struggle (twitter.com/_/status/525671197397512193)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/525018549060792320/525064501734166528 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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KevinMarks__ Gwg is gravatar a model to look at for the nickname cache?
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GWG KevinMarks__: Not really. But that is what WordPress uses. It doesn't natively support a local solution
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GWG There are local avatar plugins, but...
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GWG An Indieweb solution should get the profile info from hcard
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KevinMarks__ Of course, I'm thinking more about how gravatar had become so useful and widespread
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GWG KevinMarks, same idea. Except distributed.
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GWG But what would you suggest, with using hcards on someone's site?
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GWG KevinMarks, I seem to recall profiles are something you thought a lot about
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KevinMarks__ Hm, didn't realise gravatar already returns an hCard http://en.gravatar.com/site/implement/profiles/
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GWG KevinMarks, gravatar is a great fallback
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KevinMarks__ Do people use the profile part or just the images?
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KevinMarks__ I suppose what I'm getting at is that a gravatar-alike that looked up by url instead of email may be the way to go
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GWG KevinMarks, most WordPress sites only use the image. There is a plugin that is part of Jetpack that does hovercards
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KevinMarks__ I'm also thinking that you could do a devious dynamic image made from SVG, with built-in hovercards
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Loqi [mention] http://roleigh.withknown.com/2014/friends-please-remember-i-post-to-facebook-almost-always-now linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Known (webmention)
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@henne Known: A social #indieweb publishing platform http://withknown.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/525689231390543873)
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GWG KevinMarks, you thinking something beyond my own implementation? A specification?
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fiatjaf.alhur.es edited /comment (+127) "/* Granularity */" (view diff)
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fiatjaf.alhur.es edited /comment (-22) "/* Granularity */" (view diff)
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fiatjaf what is known
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Loqi Known-logo.pngKnown is an open publishing / community platform project http://indiewebcamp.com/Known
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@tomwiththeweath RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook. You know what’s open? HTML over HTTP. #indieweb (ttk.me t4Qv4) (twitter.com/_/status/525700965501272064)
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gRegor` Quiet Friday. How's it going, indieweb?
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joskar gRegor`: Slowly, I guess. I (finally) implemented comments through webmention yesterday and has not had the energy to do anything today :/
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gRegor` That's great, joskar!
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gRegor` joskar++
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Loqi joskar has 2 karma
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joskar At least not after realizing that I need to fix a lot of stuff
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gRegor` Are you on WordPress?
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joskar nope
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joskar Home-made hacking made possible through /bin/sh and C :)
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gRegor` Oh, sweet :)
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gRegor` You should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#IndieWeb_Examples if you haven't already
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Loqi yea
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ben_thatmustbeme joskar++ great job
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Loqi joskar has 3 karma
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joskar :)
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joskar gRegor`: I totally forgot about adding myself, doing that now
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gregorlove.com edited /Nucleus (+126) "/* Indieweb Plugins */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /cms (+39) "r" (view diff)
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joskar.se edited /Webmention (+338) "Added myself to the list" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Webmention (+0) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ moved Cweiske.de chronologically" (view diff)
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gRegor` joskar: Interesting display of the <link> element through CSS. I don't think I've seen that done before.
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gRegor` It doesn't seem to be clickable for me in Chrome though. Referring to the "In English" <link>
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joskar It doesn't? What browser are you using?
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joskar It's inspired from text browsers (like lynx). They show the <link> elements if there is a title attribute :)
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gRegor` Chrome 38
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aaronpk i'm on chrome 38 and I see it
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aaronpk in the top left corner right?
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joskar aaronpk: Can you click it?
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aaronpk oh, no
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joskar Hmm..
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gRegor` I see it, but can't click it.
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gRegor` Let me check in Firefox.
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aaronpk it changes when I hover too
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joskar Firefox let's you click it
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tfontaine1 Not clickable in Safari on Yosemite either
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gRegor` Same; i see the hover effect
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joskar Well, so much for _that_ DRY optimization :(
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gRegor` Confirmed I can click it in Firefox
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gRegor` Wonder if there's some JS wizardry to make it clickable.
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gRegor` It's a cool concept, regardless. Never thought of that.
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joskar gRegor`: One can probably generate new <a> tags through JS
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joskar Haven't had the time to dive into it though
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gRegor` Yeah, that could work. Some feature detection to see if the browser supports clicking and replacing if not.
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joskar Or just change it into an <a> tag if JS is enabled. <a> tags are clickable in all browsers (I hope)
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gRegor` joskar: webmention sent!
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gRegor` Does your system show the webmentions on both language variants, or just the one the wm is sent to?
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KartikPrabhu <link> to <a> when JS is available! regressive enhancement?
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joskar gRegor`: It was accepted, but apparently not recognized as a comment. I will fix that!
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joskar gRegor`: Currently only on one of the pages, I haven't figured out if I want swedish comments on the english one or vice versa.
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gRegor` Ooh, you even have status URLs. Nice!
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gRegor` I don't even have those set up yet, heh.
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joskar Maybe I will do some language-detection and put it to the proper language page
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gRegor` Ah, well I mixed things up for you by sending English to the Swedish page :)
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gRegor` Is there a way to indicate sub-sections are in another language?
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aaronpk wow, localized posts?
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gRegor` Yeah!
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joskar aaronpk: Yeah, I thought someone ought to try it :)
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KartikPrabhu lang="" on the section
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk I hadn't even considered writing the same post in two languages
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gRegor` what is localization?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "localization" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=localization
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gRegor` what is i18n?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "i18n" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=i18n
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aaronpk what is l16n?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "l16n" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=l16n
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aaronpk what is internationalization?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/internationalization
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gregorlove.com created /i18n (+34) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` 16? Did I use the wrong number?
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aaronpk localization and internationalization are different
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aaronpk oops l10n
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aaronpk what is l10n?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "l10n" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=l10n
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joskar gRegor`: Fixed it! (I wasn't checking for embedded 'cite' urls in the in-reply-to)
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gRegor` Cool!
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joskar Also I see now that I don't get the author thingy right
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gregorlove.com created /l10n (+34) "r" (view diff)
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joskar But at least now I have some external post to experiment with :P
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joskar gRegor`++
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gRegor` Loqi: I want my karma
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Loqi :)
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gRegor` Punk
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joskar Loqi does'n like backticks? :(
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KartikPrabhu who me?
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KartikPrabhu gRgornobacktick++
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Loqi gRgornobacktick has 1 karma
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joskar gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 8 karma
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gregorlove.com edited /internationalization (+105) "/* Internationalization */ dfn" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu joskar: what is this JS <link> to <a> conversion for? link?
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gregorlove.com created /localization (+34) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /internationalisation (+34) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: https://joskar.se/2014/kommentarer-via-webmention
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gRegor` The clickable <link> in top left doesn't work in some browsers
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gregorlove.com created /localisation (+34) "r" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu <link> is not supposed to be clickable is it?
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joskar KartikPrabhu: They are links. What good would they be if they weren't clickable? :)
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KartikPrabhu why not use <a> ? that is the actual clicky URL element anyway
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joskar Because one can't use <a> in <head>. Also search engines won't look for them for "alternates".
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KartikPrabhu joskar: <link> is for meta hidden element stuff not clicking UI
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gRegor` It's an attempt at DRY, but yeah, <link> has an ambiguous name like that.
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KartikPrabhu putting content in <head> is bad anyway
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KartikPrabhu rel="alternate" works on <a> too
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fiatjaf I never knew you could actually display <link> elements
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KartikPrabhu you can display anything using correct CSS
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joskar They are not necessarily "content". They are link relations, which are not really needed to consume the content of the page.
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gRegor` Did I miss any i18n, l10n, internationali(z|s)ation, locali(z|s)ation alts? :)
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KartikPrabhu <link> relations are meta data and not for clikcing then :P
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gRegor` Do any browsers support switching tot he alternate in their UI, or only via plugins?
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joskar gRegor`: lynx does :)
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joskar I think most "graphical UI" browsers don't.
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joskar Which is weird.
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gRegor` Tried it with an <a rel=alternate>?
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KartikPrabhu still does not get why a "in English" is in the <head> it is a UI element which should be in the body and in a <a>
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joskar KartikPrabhu: I read somewhere that search engines only indexed the <link rel="alternate" hreflang="..." ...>, so that's why I put it there.
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joskar But it is possible that I am misinformed.
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KartikPrabhu oh you can put rel="alternate" href;ang="" stuff on a <a> too. Maybe try some search engine testing to try if it works. it should!
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KartikPrabhu just like feed readers also pick up <a rel="alternate" > for Feed URLs
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KartikPrabhu well they should pick up rel="feed" but that is another story
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KartikPrabhu in anycase, even if the search engine does not pick up the <a> it will still exist on the page as a clickable UI that the reader can use. code for readers and not SEO
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gRegor` https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/189077?hl=en
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joskar That's probably the link I've read. According to that you can only use: <link>, HTTP header or a sitemap.
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joskar No <a> unless I read it wrong.
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gRegor` It appears you're correct that Google won't find the <a rel=alternate>, so I guess it's up to you depending how importatn SEO vs DRY is
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gRegor` Yep. Noted that it says each page should include its own language as an alternate, too
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joskar Oh, I didn't know that!
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gRegor` " you have multiple language versions of a URL, each language page must identify all language versions, including itself. For example, if your site provides content in French, English, and Spanish, the Spanish version must include a rel="alternate" hreflang="x" link for itself in addition to links to the French and English versions. Similarly, the English and French versions must each...
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gRegor` ...include the same references to the French, English, and Spanish versions."
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KartikPrabhu urgh! <link> soup... horrible
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aaronpk joskar: nice webmention status pages!
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KartikPrabhu <shrugs> up to you then
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joskar aaronpk: Thanks! :)
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aaronpk care to add yourself here? http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Asynchronous_status_polling
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aaronpk joskar: I think you have an extra <p> tag in your e-content
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joskar aaronpk: Yeah, there is something wrong with my parsing of the content, so it gets it wrong when in re-generates the page.
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joskar It's on my todo list
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aaronpk ah k
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aaronpk it made my site very confused
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joskar It did :)
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joskar ?
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aaronpk http://aaron.pk/r4Yn2
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joskar sorry about that :)
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joskar Also, I must have broken something, because now it seems like my "content" disappears after a comment :(
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joskar.se edited /Webmention (+73) "Added myself to the "asynchronous" list" (view diff)
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aaronpk looks better now :) http://aaron.pk/r4Yn2
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aaronpk except your photo is 404
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aaronpk https://joskar.se/joskar.jpg
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joskar aaronpk: Yeah, I probably should add a photo as well :P
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aaronpk especially since it's linked in your h-card!
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joskar Let's just say I have a lot of things on my todo list :)
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aaronpk :)
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joskar Do you cache photos?
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aaronpk I don't yet but I really should
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aaronpk that's also on my todo list
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joskar Because if you did, this would be the opportunity to see how it responds to 404s :P
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aaronpk hah
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gregorlove.com created /on_your_todo_list,_aaronpk (+29) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` what is on your todo list, aaronpk?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/on_your_todo_list,_aaronpk
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aaronpk hahaha
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gRegor` h/t tantek
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gRegor` what are you working on, gRegor`?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you working on, gRegor`" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+working+on%2C+gRegor%60
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gRegor` Hm
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aaronparecki.com edited /on_your_todo_list,_aaronpk (+14) "fix redirect" (view diff)
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gRegor` I don't think <links> are that bad. Not nearly as bad as <meta>
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tantek correct
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gRegor` (responding way late to KartikPrabhu_ )
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joskar gRegor`: I've added some form of JS now to change the <link>s into <a>s. Does it work in Chrome?
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gRegor` joskar: Yep!
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fiatjaf why don't all these pages that ask you to type your domain store that information in localStorage, so I don't have to type every time?
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tantek or a cookie :)
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gRegor` fiatjaf: Are you referring to the indiewebcamp wiki specifically?
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joskar gRegor`: Good :) (not that I'm happy with the solution, but still)
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fiatjaf gRegor`: also, the login screen :P
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gRegor` fiatjaf: There's a checkbox on this page to remember your login for 180 days: http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Preferences
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fiatjaf s/domain store/domain name
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fiatjaf s/store/name
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Loqi fiatjaf meant to say: s/domain name/domain name
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gRegor` Hehe
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fiatjaf damn.
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Loqi lolz
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gRegor` Loqi mocks us
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Loqi woot!
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fiatjaf gRegor`: that will solve my problems for some time, but still, everyone storing the others' domain name would not be bad
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reedstrm Loqi has Fridayitis?
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gRegor` Oh sure
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gRegor` I just know it's been a common complaint about logging in to the wiki repeatedly.
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gRegor` There's a github issue on it. :)
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gRegor` Maybe I will be adventurous this weekend and try a fresh install of MediaWiki with the IWC plugins
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fiatjaf good luck :P
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gRegor` Heh, thanks
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gRegor` IWC wiki needs upgrading though. Someone's gotta do it
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kbs aaronpk: haha - honeycomb is pretty, nice :-)
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kbs (and I like that you've taken the time to also hover-title each block - nice touch :)
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gRegor` Hi, kbs!
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kbs hey gRegor` :-)
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gRegor` How's it going?
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kbs not bad - any exciting new projects you've launched recently?
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gRegor` Not really. I've been making slow progress on migrating from my CMS to the ProcessWire framework, so mostly been re-building my webmention for it.
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gRegor` How about you and the crypto stuff?
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tantek what is ProcessWire?
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Loqi ProcessWire is an open source PHP content management system/content management framework http://indiewebcamp.com/ProcessWire
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gRegor` ;) tantek
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tantek cool!
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tantek what is honeycomb?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "honeycomb" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=honeycomb
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ShaneHudson_ Some days I do think tantek is just a bot :p
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kbs gRegor`: wish I knew more about PHP :-) but about to head into the google mother-ship and work on related stuff; so cautiously optimistic I guess
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kbs honeycomb is http://aarontoponce.org/honeycomb.html
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gRegor` Haha, it has been odd today with just intermittent comments from tantek :)
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kbs oh, aaronpk hasn't made Loqi auto-add notes to the wiki yet :)
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Loqi who, me?
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gRegor` I think he's at a conference or mobile
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kbs aah
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tantek ShaneHudson: the more I can seem like a bot, the easier it will be for me to replace my online presence with a bot. ;)
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gRegor` kbs: Meaning, you got a job at Google? Don't think you need much PHP for them, heh
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ShaneHudson_ Hah yes, it would be nice to spend more time in the real world :D
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tantek ShaneHudson: outdoor seating helps!
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gRegor` kbs: Oh, you mean "related stuff" to crypto, not PHP, I'm guessing.
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ShaneHudson_ tantek: So does nice weather :P My Dad built a very nice wooden shelter in his garden, I will need to make one at some point. It is great for working in
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kbs gRegor`: yea - indeed :) basically hope to funnel whatever random little things I've been doing into a PGP related project they have going
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kbs also notes that google constantly auto-corrects PGP to PHP :)
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gRegor` Ha!
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gRegor` The Google End-to-End extension, or something else?
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kbs yep, that's the one
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gRegor` Cool
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ShaneHudson_ Does this Google Inbox thing have any extra crypto? Seems like a good opportunity to go "Oh by the way, End to End by default on our new projects"
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gRegor` Good question, ShaneHudson
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tantek what is Google Inbox?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Inbox" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Google+Inbox
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gRegor` adding it
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kbs only tangentially related, but I had the impression that yahoo is actively working on adding end-to-end encryption to yahoo mail; might see something come out in a few months
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ShaneHudson_ That sounds good, though I tend to just relate Yahoo Mail to spam these days
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tantek BTW - first actual indie comms failure today.
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ShaneHudson_ tantek: What happened?
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tantek 2 txts sent from an iPhone on AT&T failed to "go blue" (be recognized by Apple as being sent to an iMessage / iCloud account)
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tantek but then
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/your-audience-isnt-your-social-network-its-time-to-start linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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tantek when AT&T sent the message via its MMS to Email service, it failed to include a Subject: header
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gregorlove.com created /End-to-End (+282) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek that was enough to push the spam filter of my email provider over the edge and classify it as ***SPAM***
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tantek and thus not get the message until I tried to start debugging what happened (I don't regularly check my spam folder in gmail)
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tantek this failure required 3 mistakes by 3 different companies
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gregorlove.com edited /End-to-End (+189) (view diff)
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tantek 1. Apple - iMessage/iCloud detection fail (my iPod was on wifi at the time, and Apple knows my iCloud address is registered - that should never fail, thus I blame Apple's iMessage address query servers as failing)
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ShaneHudson_ Oh wow, that's quite a complicated failure! Likely to happen again?
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kbs ShaneHudson_: *nod* Marissa hired a pretty well-known security guy (Alex Stamos) and it seems one of their attempts to rejuvenate yahoo mail is by going down the "protect user-privacy" path. Be interesting to see what turns out, but I'm super happy they are making the attempt.
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ShaneHudson_ I really like the idea of Yahoo becoming a good company again. They have done oh so much wrong but Marissa isn't stupid, and they have plenty of cash
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tantek 2. AT&T - sent an MMS as email *without* a Subject: header. This is just a bug. As we know in the IndieWeb, if you're posting a /note - you should put at least a plain text (perhaps abbreviated) portion of the start of the /note as the p-name (equivalent to the Subject: in email).
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tantek 3. Empowering Media's spam detection algorithm overly aggressively categorized a subject-less MMS-email as spam.
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ShaneHudson_ checks p-name on notes
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Mark87 tantek not to get off topic here, but why should you put a p-name in a note? I don't plan on doing so; it seems uselessly redundant?
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@ThoughtStreams_ “Webmention Abuse” by @joeld https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ (twitter.com/_/status/525771487178149888)
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gregorlove.com created /Google_Inbox (+186) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek Mark87 - for legacy readers
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ShaneHudson_ Looks like I don't have it at the moment either
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tantek that have a UI that always assumes a "title". E.g. RSS / Atom readers.
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Mark87 ah
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tantek otherwise your notes may just show up as "blank" entires in a list
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tantek or maybe not show up at all
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tantek Mark87 - that's probably worth writing up as an FAQ on /note
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ShaneHudson_ I need to improve my notes page. Currently just a list of times/ids https://shanehudson.net/notes
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tantek this is all stuff I discovered in 2010 / 2011 when I started "tweeting" from my site.
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tantek and others started to *read* my "tweets" directly from my site (not Twitter POSSE copies) via their RSS/Atom feed readers
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ShaneHudson_ So how does that work, RSS/Atom do not look for p-name do they?
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Mark87 tantek++ very interesting. Definitely worth documenting your experiences, especially if you have any examples of failing readers.
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Loqi tantek has 111 karma
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tantek Mark87 - unfortunately the examples of failing readers / feed consumers that drove the changes back in 2010-2011 have all died. E.g. Google Buzz, Google Reader.
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tantek is still seriously considering 402ing his Atom feed.
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Mark87 tantek great examples of how crappy implementations with wide adoption have screwed up standards by requiring redundant workarounds
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tantek Mark87 bad assumptions in standards too. Atom <entry> requires a <title> so you have to make one up.
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Mark87 which is exactly in line with the indieweb mantra of spreading many implementations to prevent this sort of chicanery
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tantek right
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tantek or at least we can catch and document the chicanery sooner to limit its spread ;)
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Mark87 Hmm my reader will infer a title from the first few hundred characters of the description. Maybe I should enable "titlelessness"
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Mark87 To its credit it handles no titles just fine even if it can't infer one
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tantek Mark87 that's great! sounds like your reader is more robust :)
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tantek Mark87 could you add your question about "why should you add a p-name to a note?" to a new entry here: http://indiewebcamp.com/note#FAQ and copy/paste some of the answers from here in IRC accordingly?
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Mark87 sure
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tantek thanks much!
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kbs *waves* -- always impressive how much creative IQ tantek has corralled in here! (And so, grateful for the IRC logs - usually learn something neat every time :)
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ShaneHudson_ Are there any popular open source RSS readers or even Twitter clients that could be used as indieweb readers?
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markmurfin.com edited /note (+535) (view diff)
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Mark87 Are you looking for readers as a service or application?
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gRegor` aaronpk was playing with selfoss a while ago
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tantek ShaneHudson: check out /reader
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gRegor` ShaneHudson_: There was also this at PDX 2014 http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/indie-reader
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Mark87 Loqi should link /resources for us when they exist
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gRegor` The chat log does
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ShaneHudson_ I was just thinking that it would be an easy way to get people involved if they are already using a tool that it works with
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ShaneHudson_ Like a Thunderbird extension for instance
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ShaneHudson_ Although I do need to choose/find/make a reader at some point, might take a copy of shrewdness
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ShaneHudson_ selfoss looks really nice, not seen that one before
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ShaneHudson_ I always forget news.indiewebcamp.com exists too
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gRegor` aaronpk had a mf2 plugin for selfoss too
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ShaneHudson_ I saw, might have to take it for a spin at some point :)
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ShaneHudson_ But for now I should head off, need to be focussing on implementing Gillespie for this assignment :( Goodnight all
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Loqi ciao
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aaronpk !tell kbs what hexagon thingy are you talking about?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/katelosse/status/525736916063621123
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@katelosse www resolves to facebook in google as if doing a performance about how facebook became the internet for so many ppl https://twitter.com/katelosse/status/525736916063621123/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/525736916063621123)
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kylewm what does that *mean*
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@uranther Tantek Celik, "Why We Need the #IndieWeb", #PDF14: http://www.youtube.com/ via @t (twitter.com/_/status/525798587829989376)