#snarfedaaronpk: thanks! btw, i still occasionally see this webmention.io error: "Incorrect string value: '\\xF0\\x9F\\x98\\x9E @...' for column 'name' at row 1"
#tantekbenwerd: also at IWC: obra built importers for LJ export, and Twitter export that import via micropub!
#tantekbenwerd: Known gained IndieAuth sign-in support
#tantekbenwerd: also fell down a rabbithole trying to make Known work on PHP 5.3
#tantekbenwerd: as a result now Known is confirmed to work on GoDaddy shared hosting, and Dreamhost shared hosting
#tantek… the goal was to make Known work on cheap hosting options
#tantek… if you're a new customer on Namecheap hosting, you get PHP 5.4, but if you're an existing customer they'll put you on PHP 5.3 and keep you there.
#LoqiDigitalOcean is a web hosting provider targeted towards developers and offers low cost cloud servers in data centers across the world http://indiewebcamp.com/digital_ocean
benwerd joined the channel
#tanteknice. Guerillero, could you add reasons / advantages to Digital Ocean to ^^^
#snarfedyour profile has the link now, so try signing up again
#Loqisnarfed: GWG left you a message 6 hours, 14 minutes ago: Now Google Plus backfeed isn't finding the links. I manually did that.
loic_m and musigny joined the channel
#dariusdunlapInteresting… IndieWebCamp.com auth failed on my domain when I input Dunlaps.net/Darius, but then succeeded when I specified https://Dunlaps.net/Darius.
#dariusdunlapI thought it was already working to handle https correctly. Maybe I broke something on my side.
#aaronpki could change the property names to h-geo stuff relatively easily, but the problem is more with sending multiple location objects in a single request
#aaronpkform encoding does not lend itself well to that
#dunlaps.netcreated /Small_Computers (+1163) "Created page with "{{stub}} These '''<dfn>Small Computers</dfn>''' are low-power computers that are useful as servers and special-use controllers for a variety of applications. They can all run we..."" (view diff)
#aaronpkoh and then add 2 more characters for each property because of the quotes, whereas I am currently sending numbers
#aaronpk(I don't get altitude accuracy from the phone)
#tantekone of the other points of multivalued properties (which we haven not explored much but went into the design) is that per object semantics could indicate cross-property ties
Pierre-O joined the channel
#tanteke.g. the 2nd latitude value is correllated with the 2nd longitude value etc.
#aaronpkputting a comma-separated list inside a JSON-encoded string sounds ridiculous
#KartikPrabhuiirc python split() handles the spaces correctly
#aaronpksounds like sending a form-encoded JSON document which is a pet peeve of mine
#KartikPrabhuaaronpk: also vertical_accuracy should be vertical-accuracy ?
EOGreer joined the channel
#aaronpkoh yeah guess hyphens are better word separators in mf2 land
#tantekKartikPrabhu: there's no such thing as "correctly" there - if something is doing magic whitespace work it could be lossy
#tanteke.g. split then join should maintain the data
#reedstrmKartikPrabhu if by correctly you mean it will split on what you tell it to split on, that is ',' There's no magic for whitespace
#tantekaaonpk, given that data and the practice you speak of ("think they are adding") I'd use a simple single character based string array since they are flags from a discrete set
#KartikPrabhutantek: it depends on the split parameter.
#tantekKartikPrabhu: it shouldn't. split is fairly literal
#reedstrmYou can choose to split on ', ' (that's comma space)
#aaronpkoh there's a motion confidence too... I should probably be including that
#tantekreedstrm but then you have to assume spaces in the data, also not robust
#tantekaaronpk single character based string array = something like "swracu"
#tantekwhere if the value is absent, you put a space, not emptiness
#aaronpkin iOS, the "CMMotionActivity" object has several boolean properties, as well as "low, medium, high" for confidence value
#tantekthat's a classic method of encoding named flags like that
#tantekeven if/when some combinations of flags are unexpected/invalid
#aaronpkthat seems relatively close to the iOS implementation too
#tanteke.g. for "stationary", "driving", you would have "s a "
#reedstrmKartikPrabhu - right. You can split on anything you specify. The only magic is that the default is 'split on whitespace, remove empty results', so it's not as reversible.
#aaronpkyou know what I should just be sending a geojson file via micropub
#reedstrmo.k this is where I bow out of the discussion, because to my eye, this is exactly the kind of data that a DB is good at, at the scales it's designed for.
#reedstrmAll that tablelocking/backups/non-version compatible stuff just goes away.
#reedstrmThe postresql team is _vewry_ conservative about that. THe on-disk format seldom changes. If it does, there are tools for for doing an in-place upgrade.
#danlykeaaronpk for the most part I've just done package manager updates for a decade and a half now.
#danlykeThe one time that didn't work, I fired up the old version, dumped it, fired up the new version and imported it. And I think it didn't work because I'd waited too many versions between distribution upgrades on that server.
#reedstrmI'm running production systems that have ~ 60 GB in them on disk. Tey'be been through every major postgresql upgrade since version 7.<something>
#finchdPSU has the ODOT database at portal.its.pdx.edu it is ~4TB on a single server, been running well for years
#aaronpki should add a note to my follow up article about how writing this data to separate plain text files allows me to sync it between machines using btsync
#reedstrmaaronpk: you might be surprised. The main issue w/ an occasional disconnected replication like that is that you would need to set up the primary server
#tommorristantek: ^^ based on the off-channel discussions. :)
#reedstrmI think a postgresql install using 'log shipping' replication would probably fit the bill pretty well. Then you can worry about the format for message passing around
gr0k joined the channel
#reedstrmtommorris: but the current discussion is on-topic and requested, correct?
#reedstrmaaronpk: w/o worrying about the storage format, per se.
#aaronpkI dunno, I'm still leery of maintaining a postgres database for this
#aaronpkbut I agree the transport should not be affected/driven by the storage
#tommorrisPostGIS is made of all sorts of awesome. That's my only contribution to the discussion, I'm afraid.
#reedstrmwell, that's your call. My experience is that my postgresql dbs take essentially no maintenance, other than making sure I don't acutally run out of disk space. Even then, it's stop, add more space, start, and it auto recovers. Now, the mysql db backing my home DVR, on the other hand ... I won't start :-)
#tantekdepending on any one source-base / implementation is a bad long term design decision. your dependencies should be on open formats and protocols, not any one open source project.
#tantekuntil someone else builds an implementation that can interoperate with PostGIS files, protocols, replication etc., PostGIS is just another monoculture vulnerability.
#aaronpktantek: thanks, that is a great expression of what I was thinking
#tantekthis is why file systems will outlast *any* databases.
#aaronpkI mean I do trust the Postgres community far more than the MySQL or CouchDB communities, but still
#tantekno database software interoperates at such standards. maybe CSV dumps/exports/imports?!?
#danlykeSo there's SpatiaLite, which could be your second implementation.
#tantekaaronpk, but still, it is a *monoculture* community
#tantekand thus vulnerable to all the monoculture problems
#aaronpkoh no I don't wanna go anywhere near sqlite
#tantekthis is what is very difficult to explain to advocates of any one open source solution
#danlyke(Still worth thinking about second formats and making sure your dumps are compatible)
#tantekdanlyke - not just "worth thinking about" IMO, but *required*.
#aaronpkthis flat file thing feels pretty solid to me
#tantekand this is also why it's safer to longterm keep your data in the thing that is interoperable (e.g. the dumps) rather than the thing that is *only supported by one codebase* (actual database files)
#reedstrmtantek - how close are you to the GIS comunity to paint it with your 'monoculture' brush?
#tantekreedstrm - does not matter. anyone dependent on a single open *source* project is a monoculture.
#danlyketantek, yeah, my experience with tab delimited SQL dumps (the last few I've looked at) is that they're easy enough to parse in Perl that that's as good an intermediate format as any.
#reedstrmtantek: so it's your particular dogma, I see.
#tantekreedstrm - not dogman, backed up by experience, long term evidence. see /monoculture
#aaronpkyou do realize the exact thing tantek is worried about has happened with MySQL
#reedstrmOpen standards and foramts, with an open source implementation.
#tantekall software dies. and it shouldn't matter if it does. it's your data that matters.
#tantekreedstrm *an* implementation. that's the problem.
#tantekanyone involved in standards knows that that means you can't trust the supposed "open standards and formats" when there is only one implementation.
#danlykeyeah, I think one of the reasons the PostgreSQL users tend to be less worried about it is that PostgreSQL has a culture of "we're implementing the SQL spec" which means interop with Oracle/SQLServer/etc (with GIS extensions) has long been possible.
#tantekdanlyke - that sounds like they're pursuing a path of being compatible with at least one other implementation, and that *greatly* mitigates the monoculture risks
#tantekhowever, one open source, and one closed source, is still very fragile / tenuous, historically speaking
#reedstrmBut as long there are robust export tools to open formats, the existing open source implementation doesn't matter. If it stops growing, gets taken private, whatever, your code doesn't stop working. We're not talking a webservice here.
#tantekreedstrm is there an open test suite for these open standards and formats you speak of?
eschnou joined the channel
#tantekreedstrm, it's a timing problem. the one implementation might *die* before you have time to export all the things.
#tanteke.g. if you've backed things up in implementation-specific formats, all those backups are null and void when the single implementation dies.
#tantekand if your'e backing up in "standard" export formats, but not actually re-using them, then you're taking *on faith* that the standard export formats actually maintain full fidelity of your data.
#tantekthus once the one implementation dies, you might not lose all your data, but you'll likely suffer some data rot / loss.
#reedstrmtantek: again, this isn't a webservice. Running my own code (since it's open source it's mine) Im' not sure how it "dies"
#tantekit dies when your device / OS / dev tools upgrade and it no longer runs
#reedstrmA backup isn't a backup until it's been tested by a restore. That's an article of sysadmin faith.
#tantekand the compiler for it no longer runs or doesn't compile it
#Loqitantek meant to say: per the heat death of the universe, nothing is "forever". some things just have *more* longevity.
#reedstrmlooks meaningfully at the floppies full of thesis data that he has no equipment to read
#reedstrmRight, it's a balance - you've drawn a bright line in the sand, claiming that flat files are the one true way. I contend that there's essentially no difference between the software needed to read those files and the dreaded "monoculture" of a system like postgresql.
#tantekbtw any reasoning in the form of, or any system that depends on "plenty of time to notice abc and do xyz" is form of future time-debt and not zero-cost. accrue enough of those and you reach failure. or death is failure, or passes on the future time-debt to someone else who may already have too much future time-debt of their own.
#tantekthus avoid depending on (or designing systems that depend on) any form of "plenty of time to notice abc and do xyz"
#reedstrmwhich your preferred solution suffers from as much as mine. Marks on acid-free paper are about the only thing that might pass that test.
#tantekreedstrm - historically there's been quite a big difference in longevity between storing things in open formats with multiple implementations, and storing things in a format (open or not) with a single implementation.
#tantek"as much as" - nope. a single implementation solution means you have to pay attention to that implementation (time debt). text files, or any multi-implementation format, you can ignore the implementations (no additional time debt).
#reedstrmReally? I used software that wrote very standards compliant and readable postscript files, back then. I can still read them.
#tantekand there were multiple implementations - back then. that's my point.
#tantekwhereas good luck reading *any* document created by (and supported by) a single implementation in the 1980s.
#reedstrm(at leat, the ones I migrateed rom unreliable media)
#tantekphysical media vulnerability is another problem (and source of future time debt)
KartikPrabhu and julian`` joined the channel
#aaronpkis there a layer diagram like the one for networks but for data storage?
#reedstrmThere is not a zero _current_ cost to your position, however. Innovation by it's very nature involves doing things that no one else is doing. Hence, single-implementation.
#tantekaaronpk - yes. It was in a Longnow presentation a while ago.
#tantekreedstrm - of course for there to be implementations, there had to have been a point in time where there was only one.
#tantekyou can reduce that time period by implementing based on openly created open formats and standards.
#tantekand encouraging multiple implementations from day one
#reedstrmI think we are actually both on the same side of the bell curve on this argument, actually. I just think you're throwing a lot of babies out with the bathwater curse of 'monoculture'
#tantekrather than having the arrogance to pursue a path where one (open source or not) implementation is sufficient / enough / rules them all.
#aaronpkguys this is fascinating but I wanna get back to my original question/problem
benwerd joined the channel
#reedstrmSee, making open source parenthetical there goads me. The existence of the code means that I am never locked in.
#reedstrmaaronpk - sure, I think I can turn it back down to a low simmer :-)
#tantekthat's the classic error of forgetting that free software is only free if your time is worthless
#aaronpkonly if you are actually comfortable developing that code!
#aaronpki use plenty of open source software I don't know how to change and have no desire to
#tantekI'd say that's true of *most* of the open source software I use.
#aaronpkeven the ones written in langauges i am familiar with!
#reedstrmtantak you're making the classic error of confounding the two meanings of free. Freedom is never free.
#tantektwo things. 1) I've enough such "innovations" die that I have no desire to invest any time in them. too risky to be worth my time. perhaps that *is* a personal age/experience thing. 2) every time I've seen a "monoculture" style open source project/community dominate an area it evitably gets displaced by something else and dies. Every time.
#aaronpkexample: firefox. say mozilla blows up and stops updating firefox. are you *really* going to start digging into the code to make updates to it when you want it to support new browser standards?
#reedstrmtantek: I have a feeling we're actually of the same generation. You've just perhaps been bitten harder than I have.
#tantekreedstrm - not a mistake. a deliberate calling out that not "locked in" is insufficient. time cost is real.
#sparveriusi could easily see a large project like firefox getting an outpouring of support
#sparveriusone like libreoffice, or a popular window manager?
#tanteksparverius - these monocultures often follow a path of feature bloat (due to popularity / dominance / enterprise), and then slowdown, and then displacement, neglect, slow quiet whimpering decline, and then death.
#aaronpkok anyway. here's what i'm thinking. my ios app will send up a geojson file in a POST request to the micropub endpoint
#reedstrmI never said it would be free of cost. Everything cost something. I think you're paying daily costs that are avoidable, and compound to more, in my estimation, than the future cost of migrating the data. Which will need to be migrated anyway, multiple times (see: lifetime of media)
#aaronpkgeojson because that seems like a reasonably adopted standard at this point
#tantekaaronpk - is still worrying about 44 bytes per second? just checking here.
#aaronpkno, geojson is gonna be chattier than my current protocol
#tantek(and btw, the on-the-wire formats don't have to be as robust as what you store)
#tantekyou can stick anything into an "e-aaronpk-geojson" property btw
#aaronpki don't see a reason to use anything mf2-related for either on-the-wire or storage formats for this data
#reedstrmaaronpk: if you want to eventually migrate this down to internet-of-things sort of level, were devices may have much less bandwidth to report their location (or storage to accumulate it), worrying about the bytes might make sense.
#tantekreedstrm by that remark I sense we may have some similarities in background.
#aaronpkmostly since geojson is pretty well established
#tantekwhether you use ActivityStreams or not, it's likely that if you're interested in indieweb-like things, it's worth your time to read the specs, for ideas, background, research if nothing else
#reedstrmYeah, they do a little of that. Then it's FPGAs, VLSI, autorouters, fab shops, and pick-and-place outsourcing. just like real Engineers :-)
#tantekdisclosure: I'm a co-chair of the W3C working group that produced those, and I myself *do not* *yet* support ActivityStreams 2.0 on my own site (no dogfood from me yet)
#tantekalso heads-up, I can't find Activity Streams 2.0 support on the editor's site either: http://www.chmod777self.com/ (apparent lack of selfdogfood)
#reedstrm'cause that sort of repeated data compresses embarrassingly well ... yeah like that :-)
#aaronpkthe only thing i'm not sure about with my current format is the motion data
gr0k joined the channel
#aaronpkI am considering switching it to something like tantek suggested, a charmap. also because I should proabbly be storing the confidence of the motion as well.
#tantekreedstrm: no implementations yet AFAIK. exactly the questions I've been asking. implementations have been promised by *next week* for W3C's TPAC meeting in Santa Clara, and the Social Web WG f2f meeting: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Face_to_face_Meetings
#tantek"haven't gotten into the export details yet" = 🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨
#benwerdMeanwhile I was just invited to Tsu.co, which is a social network that splits advertising revenue with you. Lots of people dancing around what needs to be done, nobody quite going all-in.
#tantekKartikPrabhu: yeah that thread makes it pretty clear how clueless Ello is and thus fairly ignorable (unless you see some actual UX innovations that are worth documenting)
#tantekin which case, better save some screenshots, this silo will run out of runway in 2-3 years tops.
#KartikPrabhutantek: ello jumped on the FB privacy/ad disaster
#KartikPrabhumaybe we need another disaster to remind people about why owning your data is important
#reedstrmbenwerd: It's a long standing techblog from the early days of 'the new journalism' so, yeah, actual revenue. Seems to have a rep for getting scoops. Now if I could just remember the name ...
#KartikPrabhutantek: not bothering with an ello account at all
#reedstrmHeck, I'd estimate that 40% of those who are care in this chat room!
#danlykereedstrm I've observed before that based on consumer behavior, privacy and control of personal information have negative value to most purchasers.
#tantekI see KevinMarks is testing an update of Noterlive ;)
#reedstrmyeah. Until they get hacked/lose their baby pics/ etc.
#tantek.comedited /User:Tantek.com (+227) "move process h-card issues to top of community working on, expand invitation per IRC brainstorm" (view diff)
#Loqitantek meant to say: benwerd - immediate implementation is to provide rel=alternate links to those, and then just return 402 Payment Required
#KartikPrabhubooo that domain is taken :( much remorse
#benwerdkylewm: huh - but nonetheless interesting to dedupe on profile ID.
#aaronpkhey bridgy people, do you know what would happen if many people created a facebook event with one of my event URLs at the end? would all the event RSVPs end up on my site?
#tantekI'm not kidding about this. The Atom version of my posts costs me more bandwidth, so why shouldn't I pass that long to the consumers?
#benwerdtantek - I think it's reasonable to provide a JSON-LD version of the 402 page for everyone. Call it freemium
#aaronpktantek: I like the idea of my own site returning "402 payment required" along with an html credit card form
#Loqitantek meant to say: I'm not kidding about this. The Atom version of my posts costs me more bandwidth, so why shouldn't I pass that along to the consumers?
#KartikPrabhuwow! firefox account signup just told me my birth year was "1990 or earlier"! I feel old
#tantekhow would you characterize that as a criticism gRegor` ?
#reedstrmtantek: hehe. However, it's almost a promise to actually send that if someone would pay up. Then your stuck supporting it.
#kylewmKartikPrabhu: do years even go back that far??
#tantekbenwerd, but seriously, charging for complex formats seems like a good idea, especially when its enterprise (those with lots of $) who ask you to publish them.
#gRegor`Probably just an oversight / stale website. Last post is from April
#tantekreedstrm - could even do it kickstarter style
#tantekand then offer it "for free" once the minimum has been met.
#ShaneHudson_My site needs $8m funding btw. Let me know if anyone finds someone 'clever' enough to see the ivestment opportunities, they seem to be everywhere in SV
#tantekthen you just have to set a high enough minimum. and wait for some philanthropist/angel/vc to come along and "throw money at the problem"
#Loqipayment in the context of the indieweb refers to a feature on an indie web site that provides a way for the visitor to that website to pay (currency, gift card credit, etc.) the person represented by that indie web site http://indiewebcamp.com/payment
#tantekthe rest (payswarm web-payments etc.) is so far away from any kind of indieweb implementation that it's ignorable IMO - unless someone wants to try building it on their own site here?
#KartikPrabhuaaronpk: I don't think I want my bank to be my identity
#reedstrmThere was a recent SMBC something like that - the economic analysis of 'the ultimate game' : I give you $100, w/ the stipulation that you have to offer some fraction of it (any fraction at all) to aaronpk. If he accepts your offer, you both keep it. Otherwise, deals off.
#aaronpkone nice design decision of payswarm is this: "While this algorithm outlines how transfer records are transmitted and recorded in a decentralized fashion, it does not outline how each authority ensures that currencies are exchanged between financial institutions."
#reedstrmRational economics says he should accept any offer at all.
#tantekyeah - like I said, IMO payswarm is ignorable because it's so far off in the weeds. if you find something useful, maybe document it on a /payment-research page
cweiske joined the channel
#aaronpki think there is likely some useful things in there
#tantekreedstrm - yes I think's a classic game. I don't have a citation, but no need to repeat it here. Perhaps you have a citation.
#GWGIs that what they call feature creep? Or is that something else?
#reedstrmGWG: smells like it: with out any details, hard to tell. Usually feature creep involves adding 'just one more feature' to a milestone/release.
#reedstrmclosely related phenomena: "While we have the wall open" during a home remodel. The "since I'm in this code anyway" refactor. Any one have others?
#aaronpkI totally did the "while we have the wall open" thing IRL
#GWGreedstrm: I do the...while we have the wall open one all the time
#GWGreedstrm: Usually its...I'm calling in the electrician....do I need him to do anything else while he is here...because I get a better deal if I fill his time more effectively
#aaronpkmanaged to add network jacks into every room of the house that way :)
#GWGBut, my problem is that I want to add features, but I see this massive way it could go if I continue along the same path...except I want to find an intermediate point in case I don't.
#snarfedGWG: when it finds the first new syndication link (per silo), it goes back and reprocesses
#KartikPrabhuhmmm ok can't help you with prioritsation
#GWGKartikPrabhu, it isn't quite that. It is more...I know I want to go from A to B...but A to B is big...I need to figure out how to work incrementally toward B, and figure out intermediate point C
#GWGThis started with adding the layer so posts can be responses to other content...Reply, Like, etc.
#KartikPrabhui think that is called creative thinking/problem solving :P
#GWGI started with simple metadata...a URL, a title, and a citation/content box.
#GWGThis is the issue that is stopping me from moving forward right now
#GWGIf I get into profile pictures and author names...the eventual endgame for that is a complete profile of the author, because it leads into all sorts of other things in the future. That includes things like authentication, messaging, etc.
#GWGOr, the one at the top of my list, whitelisting on the assumption people I wrote about should be a whitelisted group backward.
#reedstrmGWG followed all that except the last "whitelisted group backward" ?
#GWGRight now, if I don't want to do full profiles, then the author data for what I'm responded to is stored in the data for the post itself
#GWGIf I do want to do full profiles, I would have to store it elsewhere.
#GWGSwitching between the two later seems like it would be a pain in the neck
tgbrun joined the channel
#reedstrmConsider the 'stored in post' part a convenience cache for the full-bore profile. Implement it first. Ah what are you doing full profiles for others, anyway? Don't they have pages for that?
#GWGreedstrm: Storing profiles is a method of caching the data. Keeping it in the post means I'd have the same data repeated for people.
tantek__________ joined the channel
#tantek__________GWG, there is no eventual endgame. (Re)think, (re)design, (re)build, (re)deploy, (re)use, (re)iterate.
#GWGtantek_________: I just hate writing migration tools
#reedstrmAh got it. Well, I'm always in favor of the DRYer approach. Store a profile, but allow it to be partial. A miss in a cache just means go look it up.
#GWGtantek_________: Also, the endgame I'm referring to is for my current vision, not the end of time
#tantek__________As reedstrm said, don't migrate but treat the earlier version as optional cache for the later version
#GWGThen I got to the difference between people and organizations
#tantek__________Your vision will always outpace your code & design. Again, there is no "eventual" nor "endgame".
#reedstrmHad to code that for search results: author info on each returned item, but wanting facet filters for by author. Answer was to dry it out, return all the people as part of the result set, and ref. it in the actual item display.
#GWGI want to have, for example, a tantek profile because I may respond to him regularly. But if I'm commenting on an article in a journal, the author is often superseded by the publication.
#tantek__________Always treat the author as primary. Publisher as optional affiliation.
#GWGtantek_________: I've just added another field to my dataset though.
#tantek__________If there is no name for the author, show "unknown author" to make it explicit
#tantek__________Then ignore publisher / publication completely for this iteration.
#reedstrmo.k. simpler question, not topic. :-) Lacking any other info, if you have the modification date of the object, I scale cache time to the age: if they haven't updated it since 1992, it's likely to be good for a long while. Lacking that, 1 day/week/etc. (ie. pick a number)
snarfed joined the channel
#reedstrm(algo stolen from defaults for squid, back in the day)
#reedstrmJust make sure you've got a 'get' method you use consistently to hook.
#GWGreedstrm: That is why I'm planning. I want to abstract some things so I can hook in later.
#GWGHmm...then the logical thing to do is write a function that retrieves the data from wherever it is stored. Then change where it is stored without changing the function that retrieves it
#reedstrmLet's just say I'm not a PHP guy and leave it there, o.k. ? :-)
#GWGreedstrm: I'm not much of a programmer in general. I've always understood code, but rarely wrote it. I've gotten back into it via Indiewebcamp, because I want to add some functionality, but it is mostly centered around metadata.
#reedstrmThe way to be a programmer is to ... program. Surprisingly few of the people who go to school to learn to program read code. This confuses me. It's like authors who don't read.
#GWGreedstrm: I studied Pascal in high school. And a little Java in college. Not exactly relevant. All the current languages I did on my own
#GWGUnless you need a BASIC program written for the Commodore 64, or you want me to activate the secret 320x240 mode on a VGA adapter using C...I'm pretty out of date on a bunch of things
#GWGI'm not in the right frame of mind to code on a Chromebook converted to Fedora
#tgbrunGWG: I have a website and am sloooooowly implementing indieweb principles. I link my posts to facebook and twitter through nextscripts and am looking to get the comments and likes, etc. back.
#tgbrunI also looked at syndication link and web comments plugins but I don't see how to set them up to find the comments, etc. I have subscribed to bridg.ly. Is there anything else I need to do?
#snarfedtgbrun: this css should hide the "also on" on pages only:
#snarfedGWG: ugh, sorry to hear it. did you look at the bridgy publish log? any clues?
#tgbrunyes to semantic linkbacks and to semantic comments. Do these plugins play well together, I'm confused about which I should have and which don't work with others
#GWGsnarfed: It is having trouble with the markup around the img markup. <figure>
#snarfedtgbrun: are you tombruning.com? if so, looks like bridgy is failing because you currently requiring js and cookies for comments. that's probably due to a plugin; you'll need to loosen that
#tgbrunGWG: now that I disabled and will uninstall spamshield, which did a great job of stopping spam (and useful comments as well) what would be a good way to stop spam?
#bret!tell KartikPrabhu Your use case is turning your paper/book into another format, such as LaTeX, from the HTML/MF2 copy, and don't want to degrade the organizational structure
#reedstrmNow it's my turn to miss something in the scrollback :-)
#KartikPrabhupandoc is annoying. I have to write YAML side files to get author details and abstract etc...
#LoqiKartikPrabhu: bret left you a message 19 minutes ago: Your use case is turning your paper/book into another format, such as LaTeX, from the HTML/MF2 copy, and don't want to degrade the organizational structure
#reedstrmwe're doing something similar, though not MF2 specifically - html5 but using CSS3 as the transform language, if you will. Currently targetting outputs to web, epub, and Pdf (via princexml, I'm afraid. Propriarty bit)
#joskarI've spent the last half hour wondering why my code for accepting webmention comments wouldn't work. Turns out I was refreshing the wrong page :)
#j12tIt's quiet on this channel, so let me ask the QOTD:
#j12tIn the Indie Web of Things, does each thing have its own domain?
#Loqij12t: benwerd left you a message 1 week, 5 days ago: Interesting feedback from timmmmyboy - would like packages vs an entire distribution (helps run Reclaim Hosting)
#tantekj12t - I'd say it depends on when you want to give your things an identity with a separate security context (then (sub)domain), or part of an existing security context (your choice, like your indieweb of posts).
#tantekthings that likely deserve their own security context: a person, an organization, software that runs autonomously (agent, AI)
#j12ttantek: so you are saying that if I go to Lowe's and pick up a thermometer, and to the Home Depot and Office Depot and so forth, when I get home I'll then proceed to enter them all in my GoDaddy control panel?
#tantekno, your indiebox control panel of course ;)
#danlykej12t I've been thinking about local URL shorteners with common enough formats that a Greasemonkey script can replace them.
#tantekthen it handles whatever obfuscation it needs to with wherever your (sub)domains are hosted
#tantekanother particular concern of getting into the "indieweb of things" is privacy about the existence of your things, e.g. at home, which would imply that we may need to address allocation of (sub)domain based identities which don't leak outside your home.
#j12ttantek: well, subdomains leak via DNS. Sub-URLs wouldn't.
#danlykeie: local links happen as http://www.flutterby.com/resolve.cgi?id=[device-and-document-public-key] , there's something common to any site which uses this scheme to do resolution (so links on your site are only dependent on your server), but eventually browsers can use something like the Bittorrent blockchain to resolve that key. Releasing us from DNS tyranny.
#tantekj12t - that depends, you could dynamically allocate them / randomize them from your indiebox as needed
#tantekdanlyke - take a look at existing algorithmic URL shorteners that have solved this problem
#danlyketantek, my hope isn't URL shortening, it's an address to IP mapping that avoids the DNS tax.
#LoqiAlgorithmic is a term often used to refer to data such as URIs or other identifiers. An identifier is algorithmic if there is a way to decode it into additional information, typically about the thing it identifies http://indiewebcamp.com/algorithmic
#j12tdanlyke: are you talking about a version of content-addressable addressing?
#tantekdanlyke - like I said, take a look at the existing solutions those of us that have solved this have deployed
#tantek2) when storing a link to a / someone else's post, *always* store the end result of redirect resolution, and then rel=canonical following.
#danlykej12t maybe... I'm trying to figure out how to give, say, my sister some sort of identity/server/document mapping that doesn't require her to pay an extra $10/year (and the attention to it), because that's part of the barrier to her moving off of Facebook/etc.
snarfed1 joined the channel
#tantek3) submit the link you stored to all the internet archives for long term archival
#tantek4) if years down the road one of your stored links fails to return "the same thing" as before (e.g. change of rel=canonical, 404, etc.), go pull that URL out of one of the internet archives, *USING* the date embedded in the very URL itself as the time-window to look for it.
#tantekboom - link repaired back to an archived version.
#tantekdoes not matter if you let the domain expire.
#tantekBONUS: you can even use this technique to *verify* rel=canonical changes by retrieving the *archived* version as above, comparing it to a new rel=canonical / redirect destination, and if it's "similar enough", updating your storage of the canonical URL.
jet__, erlehmann_ and erlehmann joined the channel
#danlykeso tantek, what portion of distributed URL de-shortening out there addresses my concerns about eventually being able to do that local to the browser?
#tgbrunNow if I could find a way to do 'notes' as well as posts in WP, my day would be complete :)
#kylewmhmm, the algorithmic URL shortening doesn't really have any bearing on DNS distributed or otherwise, afaik
#kylewmdanlyke^^ probably just confirming what you already know
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#danlykekylewm that's what I thought, just wanted to make sure I'm not missing something.
KartikPrabhu and tantek_ joined the channel
#tantek_kylewm, danlyke, it does, when the algorithm unpacks to a URL with a path starting with a date
#tantek_Per the above algorithm I just documented.
#tantek_What it does it make your rental of a domain name over a time period actually work for permalinks without having to rent the domain name for all time.