#indiewebcamp 2014-11-25

2014-11-25 UTC
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mko tommorris aaronpk: I use the Swarm app to handle most of my checkins specifically because of that notifications panel checkin feature. I use the Foursquare PUSH API to propogate it to my personal site simultaneously (though I can check in from my website and syndicate it back to Foursquare as well).
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aaronpk sweet. that's basically exactly my plan.
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aaronpk except also checking in from my watch :)
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tommorris Just been playing around with Elasticsearch. It seems like an ideal fit for OSM checkin hosting.
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mko Well, yeah. I assume Swarm is going to have an Apple Watch equivalent interface.
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aaronpk or just use a pebble right now! they made a pebble app and everything
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kylewm.com edited /events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club (+142) "/* Where */ set location to Creamery SF (tentative)" (view diff)
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mko Oh really? Hm. That's tempting. I'd have to dust off my Pebble and wear it on the other wrist from my Basis I guess.
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aaronpk yeah it's pretty good!
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kylewm.com edited /events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club (-7) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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mko I just don't know if I want to wear two watches.
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aaronpk lol yeah
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gRegor` Anyone else use Google Custom Search Engine? Are you also noticing a 404 on http://www.google.com/uds/?file=ads&v=3&packages=search&async=2 which is included by their javascript?
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gRegor` I've confirmed it on two client sites already, so pretty sure it's on their end.
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tantek and this is why the no-JS search form is the way to go
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tantek also related: http://tantek.com/2014/325/t1/apis-magic-disappearing-site-deaths
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tantek https://twitter.com/t/status/535882926601560064
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@t @dweinberger: “APIs are magic” @t: Especially at disappearing acts: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths @KevinMarks (ttk.me t4ZF1) (twitter.com/_/status/535882926601560064)
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dorian bluh so much unnecessary js
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tantek gRegor` add it to /Google#Issues ?
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tantek re: no-JS search form, here's how you do it: http://indiewebcamp.com/search#search_box
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gRegor` If I can confirm it with others, sure. Mostly looking for confirmation and if anyone had information about Google changing something.
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tantek uses Google, without JS
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gRegor` Thanks, I'll look
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tantek gRegor` confirmed: Not Found Error 404
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tantek http://www.google.com/uds/?file=ads&v=3&packages=search&async=2
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gRegor` Doubt it will work for us though; clients want people to stay on their page.
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tommorris tee hee. https://twitter.com/ReaderMeter/status/536745992289148928
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@ReaderMeter @dweinberger wouldn't it be fitting for @medium itself to have an API, given that you grant them perpetual rights to reuse your content? (twitter.com/_/status/536745992289148928)
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tantek this is why you should NOT depend on Google JS serving
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tantek even for their own services :P
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tantek HTML form + HTTP beats JS again
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gRegor` hehe
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upon2020.com edited /Indie_Box (-15) "Turning UBOS into its own page" (view diff)
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mko gRegor`: What stack are you using?
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upon2020.com edited /web_hosting (+11) "added UBOS" (view diff)
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mko gRegor`: I ask because there's some really good out of the box full-text search indexing options for PHP, Node.js, and Django/Python that don't require much infrastructure.
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gRegor` LAMP - WordPress in this instance. Not going to invest the time in changing anything at this time. The 404 is just a minor nuisance at this point, not causing issues
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mko Ah, okay
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upon2020.com created /UBOS (+2179) "initial content" (view diff)
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upon2020.com uploaded /File:ubos-logo-big.png "UBOS logo."
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upon2020.com edited /UBOS (+33) "added logo" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: pinged you on #microformats if you are free
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KartikPrabhu anyone know how to add links in the ::after pseudo-element? I am numbering chapters and equations, and would like to add links on the actual numbers
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tantek uh, how do I put this. Generated content can't have markup
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah I sort of thought so... hate to do templating but might be the only option
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bret how should I deal with Timezones in micropub
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bret ?
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KartikPrabhu bret: sending or receiving?>
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tantek bret, could you be more specific?
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bret errm nevermind, I just need to think about this more
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bret requests come in with a fully specified date time
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tantek presumably including timezone or Z?
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bret my confusion is between the server processing it, and my final output
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bret what is timezone?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/timezone
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bret :/
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KartikPrabhu bret: it seems micropub is to send ISO-blah encoded datetimes so you can use that to get timezone, and display accordingly
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KartikPrabhu see example: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#h-event
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tantek.com edited /timezone (+0) "fix dfn" (view diff)
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tantek what is a timezone?
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Loqi timezones are a way to create dependencies in your code on legislative bodies in countries you have never heard of[1] http://indiewebcamp.com/timezone
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KartikPrabhu lol
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bret writing some tests, and the timezones are off between local and remote. I need to find a way to keep that reliably consistent
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KartikPrabhu this might be a future twitter war
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bret i generate slugs, wich are lossy
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bret so they are turning out different based on the timezone the machine is set to :(
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tantek oh - is this for /URL_design?
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tantek what is Calagator?
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bret possibly worth noting
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Calagator" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Calagator
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tantek wat
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bret for URL_deign
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tantek hmm
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bret dated slugs have edgecases when generating... you have to be specific with what time zone you want them generated for
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bret despite losing that information in them ultimately
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bret is that worth documenting?
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tantek.com created /Calagator (+748) "stub with dfn, POSSE to, feature requests" (view diff)
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tantek bret - not sure what you mean by "dated slugs" - the date in typical /URL_design *precedes* the slug.
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tantek also, the "slug" is not the entire "path" of the URL - the slug is only the handful of human -readable words, camelCase, or hyphen or underscore delimited used typically in the latter part of the URL.
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tantek.com created /calagator (+23) "r" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: bret: i think bret wants to use the date in the URL part preceding the slug, but is having timezone conflicts
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bret yeah sorry, i confused slug with the whole url design
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tantek calling that "slug" is imprecise
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tantek KartikPrabhu, bret: this is why I always post from/with "Pacific" timezone
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tantek even if I'm overseas
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KartikPrabhu yeah. or always convert to UTC for URL design
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tantek for purposes of figuring out the dated perma(short)link etc.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I don't think "always convert to UTC" is user-friendly
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KartikPrabhu hmm possibly
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tantek I think it's better to pick your "home" timezone and stick with that
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tantek aaronpk could you POSSE https://aaronparecki.com/events/2014/12/03/1/homebrew-website-club to FB also?
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tantek !tell aaronpk could you POSSE https://aaronparecki.com/events/2014/12/03/1/homebrew-website-club to FB also?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /2014/Cambridge/expenses (+140) "Mozilla sponsored dinner" (view diff)
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@mshook Keep track of the #cool things @withknown is doing #known #withknown #indieweb #november #2014 (twitter.com/_/status/537096878790164480)
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dietrich tantek__: aaronpk: bret: i can't do HWC on Dec 3, have a mtg w/ 1200 mozillians that day.
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Loqi dietrich: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 28 minutes ago: Where's HWC next week in PDX? I'll be in PDX 2014-12-03! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club#Where
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bret yooks
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bret dietrich: we got it covered, doing it as esri pdx
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dietrich awsm
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kylewm I'm seeing kind of weird behavior with wiki logins. If I log in and click an http link (like the link to HWC above), it looks like I'm logged out
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kylewm manually change it to https, and I'm logged in again
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kylewm anybody else?
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kylewm.com edited /Python (-86) "/* Third-party Libraries */ link to local definitions of python libraries for future Loqi queries" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /Requests (+322) "Created page with "{{stub}} <dfn>[http://docs.python-requests.org/en/latest/ Requests]</dfn> is a small, human-friendly, Python library for working with HTTP requests, written by [http://www.kenne..."" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /BeautifulSoup (+583) "Created page with "{{stub}} <dfn>[http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/ BeautifulSoup]</dfn> is an HTML parsing library for Python. BeautifulSoup4 leverages one of several possible HTML/XM..."" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /beautiful_soup (+27) "Redirected page to [[BeautifulSoup]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /bs4 (+27) "Redirected page to [[BeautifulSoup]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /BeautifulSoup4 (+27) "Redirected page to [[BeautifulSoup]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /beautifulsoup (+27) "Redirected page to [[BeautifulSoup]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /Beautiful_Soup (+27) "Redirected page to [[BeautifulSoup]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /mf2py (+170) "Created page with "{{stub}} <dfn>mf2py</dfn> is a microformats2 parsing library for Python, developed by {{tommorris}}. It source is [hosted on https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py GitHub]."" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /mf2py (+36) (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /mf2py (+1) "grr, typo" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /mf2py (+8) "/* See Also */ linky" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /mf2util (+41) "added See Also" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /mf2util (+2) "correct installation command pip install mf2py -> mf2util" (view diff)
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@deanna_ball It's futile to relive a moment. Once the moment's passed it's merely a memory. Live life like it's meant to be lived... In the... #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/537122381664235520)
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bret kylewm: would you point me in the direction of your authorization code for your micropub endpoint?
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kylewm bret: sure! it's a little fragmented... auth is here https://github.com/kylewm/redwind/blob/master/redwind/views.py#L311 token and micropub are here: https://github.com/kylewm/redwind/blob/master/redwind/micropub.py
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@Freerange_Inc Anyone recommend ref friendly journals that would welcome papers around making, open data, indieweb, social justice, promise and values? (twitter.com/_/status/537180519004667904)
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@IndieHosters RT @cedricgodart: IndieHosters: un projet européen pour recentraliser le web et démocratiser l'IndieWeb http://www.toolinux.com/IndieHosters-entend-recentraliser @IndieHoster… (twitter.com/_/status/537193957936361472)
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell GWG, aaronpk looks like the patch to ruby-lang got accepted to trunk, I don't know when they will backport this
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Tantek___ Just read this this morning: https://m.facebook.com/about/terms-updates/
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Tantek___ Interesting stuff to consider re privacy and in particular the actions called out
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Tantek___ unfriending, untagging, and blocking
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu have you considered showing other types of responses/interactions on your paragraphs via fragmentions in addition to notes/comments? E.g. likes, quotations, tags?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek what is a quotation?
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Loqi A quotation is a type of post that includes a subset of the contents of another post, and a citation of that other post http://indiewebcamp.com/quotation
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tantek I wonder if a quotation is a type of response, where the in-reply-to is a fragmention of the original of the quotation. If you did that then the original could link back to you from marginalia next to the quoted paragraph with something like "quoted by so-and-so on YYYY-MM-DD".
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tantek perhaps a quotation can be its own post (e.g. quoting an overheard conversation in person), or it can be a type of response to some other post, where all you're doing is quoting part of that other post.
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tantek I suppose that begs the question of, then what's the difference between a quotation response to a post that quotes the entire post, and a repost?
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tantek They're certainly different in presentation
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tantek and perhaps that's enough to indicate that the author of the quotation / repost has a different intent in mind, and thus it's worth reflecting that in the format.
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aaronpk catching up with dates in URL discussion from yesterday
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 11/24 at 6:10pm: could you POSSE https://aaronparecki.com/events/2014/12/03/1/homebrew-website-club to FB also?
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Loqi aaronpk: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 1 hour, 17 minutes ago: looks like the patch to ruby-lang got accepted to trunk, I don't know when they will backport this
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aaronpk if you put the date or time in the URL, IMO it should be the *local* date of the post, whatever timezone that's in
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aaronpk and yeah it's tricky to make that work right in code, but timezones are always hard to deal with
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aaronpk I'm not a fan of "always default to your home timezone" for content, because then the post permalink doesn't accurately reflect the time the post was made
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aaronpk for example this post from dinner in Germany, https://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/10/18/193644/
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aaronpk the time is in the URL (7:36pm local time)
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aaronpk and the post shows 7:36pm CEST
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aaronpk it wouldn't make any sense to show that in Portland time, because then this would end up looking like I'm drinking beer at 10am https://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/10/18/180820/
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fiatjaf webmentions aren't supposed to fetch and display raw html, right?
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fiatjaf webmention.herokuapp.com for example, fetches plain text from the html, and ignores paragraphs and newlines. it is not pretty.
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fiatjaf what am I doing wrong?
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aaronpk that's not really part of webmentions, that's up to comments presentation
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation
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aaronpk specifically http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation##get+the+text+of+the+comment+to+display
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fiatjaf right. thank you.
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+145) "/* Up-and-coming Meetings */ structure a bit" (view diff)
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cweiske aaronpk implemented federated login on indieauth.com!
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cweiske no, wait, he didn't yet :/
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tantek GWG, see http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings
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aaronpk so close
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aaronpk cweiske: you will definitely be the first person I tell when I launch that :)
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tantek aaronpk - I disagree with you re: dates in URLs being local to the posting time
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tantek I think if you're going to do that you should encode the timezone into the URL as well
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aaronpk why?
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tantek reason being, absent any other information, it should be possible to determine post sequence from the URLs
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tantek otherwise you can end up posting things *before* previous posts
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aaronpk i have several occurrences of that
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tantek e.g. a checkin in New Zealand airport upon departure
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tantek and then a checkin in SFO upon landing
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tantek yeah I think that's bad (out of order URLs)
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aaronpk i think the tradeoffs are worth it
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tantek I don't
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tantek URL design comes first IMO
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aaronpk good thing we don't have to agree :)
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tantek and that's bad URL design - because absent a timezone, a consumer would have to imply Z
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tantek or maybe they can assume a (semi)fixed timezone
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tantek (e.g. "Pacific")
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tantek which suggests at least 1 of 2 possible solutions
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tantek *either* always put your URLs in the same timezone
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tantek *or* include TZ in the URL
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mko My URL design actually assumes Z, and my datetime stamps (which is what the ordinal uses) is all Z.
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tantek mko - right, that's 1
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aaronpk problem with that is you lose the ability to see all posts on a day by removing parts of the URL
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tantek who's "day" ?
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aaronpk my day
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aaronpk the person creating the content
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aaronpk e.g. http://aaronparecki.com/2014/11/20
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tantek you've lost that anyway any time you post anything after midnight
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tantek a typical person counts their "day" as when after they wake up, and before they go to sleep
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aaronpk that's actually another problem i've been thinking a lot about, especially since I actually do know *my* days for the past 3 years
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tantek right
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aaronpk and that gets really messy when traveling, but is pretty straightforward if you spend the whole day in one timezone
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aaronpk I would love my date permalinks to also show stuff after midnight before I went to sleep
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GWG So, is putting an ad in the wiki for New Yorkers interested in starting a HWC an appropriate action.
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Loqi GWG: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 2 hours, 20 minutes ago: looks like the patch to ruby-lang got accepted to trunk, I don't know when they will backport this
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tantek right, so solve that problem and you won't have to screw up your datetimes in your URLs with (invisible) inconsistent timezones
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tantek GWG start with a wiki edit :)
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sparverius related to oauth tokens on the googs: https://security.google.com/settings/security/activity
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tantek as above
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sparverius they have a new set of tools for more easily managing your token
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mko I'm okay with the timeboxing of my URL "days" as pinning everything to the Z timezone. I don't think of my data at the "day" resolution very often anyway.
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tantek mko - I think your solution is reasonable too
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mko I think of it usually on an hourly resolution or a higher aggregate resolution (week / month).
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tantek though I do tend to think (and browse) my data at "day" resolution often
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aaronpk mko: the problem I have with that is for part of the day, your URLs will have "25" in them but the local date will show "24"
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mko shrugs.
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mko I'm okay with that.
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GWG Tantek, that is what I meant by ad.
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mko If I'm looking at my data, I'm not using a URL to do it.
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aaronpk why not?
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mko Because I have better tools in place to do so?
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aaronpk my URLs are my tools :P
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mko I like to do too much with my data for which URLs are somewhat insufficient.
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mko I do a lot of long-running task analysis on my data.
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mko I could put make URLs for the resultant views of those, but it would be horrifying to have to manage all of that infrastructure. I'm fine with doing that type of analysis locally for now.
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@zgrant @jakiking Hey, I'm testing a cool new online publishing tool from @withknown & I'd like to test the webmentions, please reply to this msg. (twitter.com/_/status/537307291754573825)
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@kylewm2 @IndieHosters weird! afraid of € maybe? there’s be at least one USer now :) #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/537310710674378753)
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+120) "/* API */ analysis by socialwg" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+134) "/* Facebook API */ see also socialwg analysis" (view diff)
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@lucas_gonze I wonder in what ways IndieWeb technology such as Webmention can help mobile apps absorb web functionality without becoming web apps. (twitter.com/_/status/537325456106999808)
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@LifeHealthDiary Aren't you tired of being a last to know about your health? #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/537343640612659200)
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@LifeHealthDiary ^jg It's your health, but "you don't need to know". We think you should #OwnYourData #Privacy http://lifetimehealthdiary.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/537382840493563905)
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kylewm aaronpk: tantek: can you !spammer LifeHealthDiary?
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aaronpk !spammer LifeHealthDiary
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Loqi Got it! There are now 17 spammers blacklisted
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kylewm thanks!
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KartikPrabhu boop
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 20 minutes ago: have you considered showing other types of responses/interactions on your paragraphs via fragmentions in addition to notes/comments? E.g. likes, quotations, tags?
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KartikPrabhu tantek__: I have considered showing mentions and likes and so forth. but don't know how useful they are. For instance having a little icon on a paragraph only to have it reveal "1 like" seems strange.
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@privatelocknet RT @LifeHealthDiary: ^jg It's your health, but "you don't need to know". We think you should #OwnYourData #Privacy http://lifetimehealthdiary.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/537389528903086081)
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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@benwerd The #indieweb community hangs out on IRC 24/7. I'm beginning to wish there was a similar channel for connected course / #ds106 instructors. (twitter.com/_/status/537390185923637248)
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tantek looks like a few messages from me this morning didn't go through :(
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tantek seeing that show up in the logs I'll try to replay
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tantek 09:56 GWG - it's not an ad - and you've already gotten encouragement to edit the wiki to show your interest - go for it! http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings
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tantek 09:56 or as tommorris might say, be bold.
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tantek 09:56 aaronpk - I think the issue you raise (about browsing day archives) is a good one
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tantek 09:57 did you ever respond to my request for opinions on "archive" renaming?
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tantek 09:57 I want to document issues like you have for "day archive"
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tantek 09:57 but right now we're a bit stuck with the /archive page as it means two things
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tantek 09:57 you too mko - I appreciate your input on naming things
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tantek 09:58 /me tries to find when in the last week in IRC he asked about splitting /archive into two pages for each of the specific meanings
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tantek 09:58 /me could use some help with searching the IRC logs for that.
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tantek (end of personal IRC log copy/paste)
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu " having a little icon on a paragraph only to have it reveal "1 like" seems strange." agreed. Thus more icons! @(2) +(6) ^(5) "(2) (@=comment, +=like, ^=repost, "=quotation) and then clicking reveals actual marginalia comments, facepile of likes/reposts, quotations etc.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu the thing is if a paragraph only has one of those minor responses then it is awkward
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kylewm tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-21#t1416612676670
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 50 seconds ago: " having a little icon on a paragraph only to have it reveal "1 like" seems strange." agreed. Thus more icons! @(2) +(6) ^(5) "(2) (@=comment, +=like, ^=repost, "=quotation) and then clicking reveals actual marginalia comments, facepile of likes/reposts, quotations etc.
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KartikPrabhu at this point I store all the fragmentioned responses, but only display replies
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tantek KartikPrabhu: ooh - at least you're storing them - ok cool
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tantek so if I sent you a "quotation" fragmention response, you'd get it but maybe not know what to do with it?
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KartikPrabhu yup any webemention to a fragmentioned url is stored with the fragmention. the marginalia display at the moment only acts on replies
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KartikPrabhu yes
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I think having only one minor response is fine - like someone "liked" this paragraph, interesting. Who was it?
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tantek how can you tell something is a reply vs like vs repost vs quotation?
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KartikPrabhu yes possibly. but then it would be better to separate out the UI for replies and likes and such
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KartikPrabhu tantek: using the u-like-of stuff
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that doesn't handlew *new* responses like quotations or tags
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tantek s/handlew/handle
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Loqi tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: that doesn't handle *new* responses like quotations or tags
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KartikPrabhu yes. they all default to mention
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tantek how can you tell a reply vs a mention?
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KartikPrabhu u-replt-to
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tantek (all responses have in-reply-to)
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KartikPrabhu hmm not that i've seens
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tantek (that's how they indicate *what* they're reponding to)
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KartikPrabhu i check for "u-in-reply-to" vs "u-like-of" vs "u-repost-of" if none of these are found but there still is a link to my post then it becomes a "mention
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tantek what if it has both u-in-reply-to and u-like-of?
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KartikPrabhu reply > like > repost
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KartikPrabhu in that order :)
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KartikPrabhu not ideal I know
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tantek ok so if I sent you a quotation with in-reply-to you would treat it as a reply
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KartikPrabhu yes.
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KartikPrabhu hmm is a quotation of my post supposed to be "in-reply-to" to that post...?
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tantek I thought so?
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KartikPrabhu i am interepreting "in-reply-to" to mean "the contents of this post are replying to your post"
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KartikPrabhu so if i quote Einstein, I am not replying to Einstein
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tantek kylewm: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-21#t1416614550687
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tantek ok KartikPrabhu that makes sense
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tantek aaronpk, mko what are your opinions on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-21#t1416614550687 ?
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snarfed fwiw, bridgy considers u-in-reply-to, u-like-of, and u-repost-of as alternatives
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 1 day, 2 hours ago: I'll be in PDX for 2014-12-03 HWC - are you available to host Homebrew Website Club SF 12/3? Pick a location and add to wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks!
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@sil @voxpelli a minor nudge about https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/issues/12 which now has a pull request attached to it ;) (twitter.com/_/status/537394771577556992)
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aaronpk hmm oh interesting
nagaway joined the channel
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snarfed it doesn't expect or provide in-reply-to for likes or reposts
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snarfed (but it does for rsvps)
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aaronpk i like "archive copy", that is pretty clear what it means
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tantek snarfed - good to know - and now this makes sense because part of an RSVP is the optional comment that comes with it.
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mko I'm not sure of the context. POSSE to Archive.org?