#indiewebcamp 2014-11-28

2014-11-28 UTC
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Loqi [mention] https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/subjective-indiewebcamp-comment-threading linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation (webmention)
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@TheRealDod Subjective #IndieWebCamp comment threading https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/subjective-indiewebcamp-comment-threading (twitter.com/_/status/538121186480492546)
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thedod howdy
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thedod Just did https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/subjective-indiewebcamp-comment-threading (loqi already told you), and there's a question there at the bottom line: do it the "light" way or the "heavy" way?
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Loqi is done
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club (+44) "/* URLs */ add Portland FB POSSE copy" (view diff)
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thedod hi
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@BillSeitz RT @kevinmarks: "@johnbattelle: Our mobile oligarchy is stifiling innovation." join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/538179017237880832)
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owen1 hello
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GWG Hello, owen1
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owen1 i listen to a podcast about some wiki and they mentioned this group. and than i saw that bear is here too
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owen1 found about his blog and reading https://bear.im/bearlog/2014/306/echos-of-zigzag
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owen1 but i am not sure what's going on here. i am in a rabbit hole mode (:
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GWG owen1: What do you want to know
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owen1 can i get a 30,000 feet overview? what's going on?
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GWG http://indiewebcamp.com/
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owen1 it's some sort of movement for people that want to build more personal stuff on the web?
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GWG Not exactly.
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GWG Basically, people have a tendency nowadays to put all their content onto sites such as Facebook, Twitter, etc.
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GWG The principle here is put all that on your site, and syndicate it to wherever else you want to be.
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owen1 perfect. what do u mean by 'syndicate'
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owen1 (not native speaker)
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GWG There is a copy of the content and/or a link to it sent to the networks you interact on.
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owen1 GWG: let me try to give a concrete example to make sure i understand you.
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GWG Ok
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owen1 instead of using facebook/twitter/instagram/github
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owen1 i should build a website that will have whatever content i want people to know about.
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owen1 so far it's accurate?
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Loqi I agree
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GWG owen1: So far...go on
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owen1 (:
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owen1 now if i want my friends on facebook/twitter/github to see or read my stuff i should send them a link to my relevant section on my site?
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GWG You can post a copy of the each post on those places, linked back to the original
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owen1 GWG: got it. what's the advantage of copy? make it easier for my friends so they don't need to leave facebook?
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GWG owen1: Yes.
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GWG A lot of the techniques will pull the comments back to your site.
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GWG It is two-way
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owen1 interesting. it might be a problem with some sites. let's take github.
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owen1 i am running gitolite for personal projects. but for public projects i like the fact that people collaborate on stuff and i want to be part of it.
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owen1 if i move everything i do to my gitolite, it will be less visible and hard to collaboret.
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owen1 also, do u have recommended list of open source projects that people use for publishing their own content (tweets/articles/images etc)
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GWG owen1: Lots of different options there
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owen1 i am curious to see examples of those
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GWG There is Known, add-ons to WordPress, etc.
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owen1 http://indiewebcamp.com/Known
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owen1 http://werd.io/ - i am surprised that there is no rss icon. i think it's here - http://werd.io/?_t=rss but from some reason people (or software, in that case) tend to hide it.
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GWG RSS is being hidden in general.
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owen1 oh yeah - https://github.com/obra/known_client
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owen1 GWG: why to hide it?
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GWG That is the choice of some people
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owen1 if you don't want people to follow your content, i would assume that those people would remove it from the html. unless they use a tool that doesn't allow it.
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owen1 s/those people/you
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Loqi owen1 meant to say: if you don't want people to follow your content, i would assume that you would remove it from the html. unless they use a tool that doesn't allow it.
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owen1 wow. what just happend? Loqi is a bot?
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Loqi dude
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owen1 Loqi:
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GWG Loqi is a bot.
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owen1 omg. that's awesome
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GWG He's very helpful
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owen1 Loqi: what's up
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GWG What is RSS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "RSS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=RSS
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GWG What is POSSE?
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Loqi POSSE is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
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owen1 ahahh
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owen1 GWG: how does this work - "a lot of the techniques will pull the comments back to your site"
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GWG What is backfeed?
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Loqi Backfeed is the process of syndicating interactions on your POSSE copies back (AKA reverse syndicating) to your original posts http://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed
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GWG owen1: Are you asking about software or principles on that?
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owen1 the technology that is involved
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp1
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tantek heh
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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GWG Good evening, tantek
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owen1 tantek: reading your POSSE website!
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tantek Good evening GWG and welcome owen1!
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owen1 tantek: u welcome. it's even readable on w3m!
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tantek what is w3m?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "w3m" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=w3m
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@almereyda I'd love to to find ways to retain the revision history https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=wiki/backup&action=history . So I should start with a .. http://known.allmende.io/2014/id-love-to-to-find-ways-to-retain-the-revision (twitter.com/_/status/538208077619953664)
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tantek neat to see these indie-to-indie conversations happening where the twitter thread is only summaries and you have to follow the indie posts to actually understand what is going on
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Loqi Welcome to news about the IndieWeb where recent notable articles about the IndieWeb are cited and linked to keep you up to date http://indiewebcamp.com/going_on
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tantek :)
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owen1 tantek: is there a reason for not showing an icon for your atom feed?
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owen1 http://tantek.com/updates.atom
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owen1 i am just curious. we talked about it a few minutes ago.
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tantek I didn't think atom feeds showed anything at all - they're machine-only right? ;)
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owen1 tantek: true, i use an rss client and i need to give my client your rss/atom url
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owen1 google+ and twitter don't have rss feed at all. your blog does have one, but i have to 'view source' to find it.
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owen1 the reason they don't have it is probably since they don't want people to consume their content outside of their app/website
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tantek owen1 - it's linked from my home page with "standard" discovery techniques, you shouldn't have to "view source" your "rss client" should have auto-discovered it from my URL
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tantek twitter used to have rss but dropped it
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owen1 you mean it's in the html - <link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" href="updates.atom"/> i guess u are correct but how will a human know your blog have an rss? the nice rss icon is the common solution. maybe my usecase is not common?
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tantek.com edited /feed (+198) "/* Shutdowns */ subheads for each" (view diff)
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tantek a human does not care about an "rss" - as "rss" is a cryptic TLA for unnecessary plumbing
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tantek a human may care about a feed, which my home page has right there at the top
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tantek re: Twitter BTW: http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#Twitter
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owen1 tantek: i am a bit confused by a human does not care about an "rss". every time i go to a blog without a visible rss icon, i have to search for it in the 'view soure'. i guess is due to my client. i use newsbeuter and i don't think it has any 'discovery' feature.
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tantek for any feed client you should be able to enter simply the URL you are looking at to try to "subscribe" to it
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tantek try it and see what happens
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tantek What is newsbeuter?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "newsbeuter" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=newsbeuter
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tantek if newsbeuter does not support this, perhaps file a bug / enhancement request for them.
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owen1 good idea
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owen1 tantek: i am reading that you are using the ubSubHubbub protocal to notify about new content. it also mention somethnig about Google Buzz and StatusNet. what is the purpose of pushing content and who is the client that recieves it?
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owen1 can i listen to those 'pushes' as well if i want to? (instead of using rss client)
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tantek the client(s) used to be users of StatusNet, in particular evanpro - however he's no longer using statusnet
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tantek and yes, Google Buzz as well, but that shutdown a while ago: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths#2011
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owen1 trying to understand what statusnet does - http://status.net/
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tantek what is Status.net?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Status.net" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Status.net
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owen1 http://forum.status.net/discussion/2574/future
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tantek.com created /Status.net (+24) "r" (view diff)
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owen1 tantek: can i subscribe to your pubsubhubhub? is that a replacement for rss client?
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owen1 i love that idea
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tantek it is possible yes
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tantek it is also possible to use an indie /reader which reads directly from the structured HTML+microformats of the home page - no separate /feed_file needed
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owen1 i guess i need a pubsub client. where can i find details for subscribing to your feed via pubsubhubhub?
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owen1 ctrl+f on your homepage didn't return anything
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tantek the point is you shouldn't need to search for any such details.
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tantek merely enter the URL you wish to subscribe to into your client and it should handle the rest
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tantek if it doesn't, then you can file a bug/feature request on the client
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owen1 tantek: oh, i didn't realize that there are client that 'discover' sites with pubsubhubhub.
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owen1 let me do a quick search
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tantek owen1 - that's how status.net worked/works for exmple
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tantek if you were using statusnet yourself, you could subscribe to my site simply by entering my URL
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tantek and it would discover all the rest automatically
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tantek re: that forum.status URL- I tried to login with OpenID but then it asks for email, username, password anyway. a prime example of why OpenID failed.
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tantek when all it does is ask you to answer the same questions you would have to *without* OpenID - then there is no point to it
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owen1 ahaha. yup
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tantek owen1 if you have access to that forum, please add a note saying StatusNet was mered with GnuSocial who have taken it over per http://indiewebcamp.com/GNU_social
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owen1 too bad mozila dropped persona. i loved it
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tantek despite mozilla "dropping" persona, persona continues to exist and be useful
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owen1 how many sites use it? is the usage growing?
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tantek at least for email-based identity
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tantek slowly but surely
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tantek what is Persona?
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Loqi Persona is a protocol for email-based identity spearheaded by Mozilla that is supported by IndieAuth for rel-me links to email addresses http://indiewebcamp.com/Persona
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tantek !tell snarfed looks like Bridgy Publish to FB is no longer providing the "Originally posted at" text in POSSE copies, e.g. see original in Edit history on https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101383480740303
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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owen1 learning the basices of pubsubhubhub https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5kHx0rGkec#t=12
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tantek owen1: to date there haven't been many consumers of PuSH written - it's non-trivial to consume
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tantek however we (or anyone else) has yet to come up with a simpler replacement for its delegated callback notiification functionality
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cweiske tt-rss (feed reader) has push support
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tantek.com edited /PubSubHubbub (+129) "add Consuming Implementations section with statusnet and tt-rss" (view diff)
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tantek what is tt-rss?
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Loqi tt-rss is a traditional Google Reader style feed reader that you have to self host http://indiewebcamp.com/tt-rss
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tantek.com edited /tt-rss (+175) "supports PuSH, no indieweb examples, see also" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /tt-rss (+45) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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owen1 tantek: i am trying to subscribe to your pubsubhubhub feed (http://tantek.com/updates.atom) with a go client (https://github.com/oren/pubsub/blob/master/client.go) but i get: Subscription failed, http://tantek.com/updates.atom (#0 0), status = 400 Bad Request do i have to run a client from a public host and not from my laptop?
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tantek owen1 your browser can load http://tantek.com/updates.atom from your laptop - not sure why a go client wouldn't be able to
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tantek curl also seems to work
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owen1 the reason i suspect that is in the log of my app (it listens on port 3000 btw) i see: Subscribing to http://tantek.com/updates.atom waiting for callback on http://:3000/push-callback/0
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owen1 maybe the google hub can't push since it's not a public host?
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owen1 i am just guessing, i don't really know
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tantek ah that makes sense - the google hub has no way of notifying your laptop
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owen1 tantek: i'll try this:
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owen1 npm install -g localtunnel
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tantek if you figure it out - please document on indiewebcamp.com/PuSH
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owen1 sure!
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KartikPrabhu what is PUSH?
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Loqi PubSubHubbub (PuSH) is a notification-based protocol for publishing and subscribing to feeds/streams in real time http://indiewebcamp.com/PuSH
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owen1 tantek: it's waiting for content. can u publish something?
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tantek maybe in the morning - sleepy time here in PST.
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owen1 sound good. thanks!
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tantek til then - owen1 - set up your personal site with IndieAuth and add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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tantek what is getting started?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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KartikPrabhu what is this callback notification functionality: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-27#t1417159958311 ?
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owen1 is scared
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tantek owen1 ^^^
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's how PuSH works. Subscribers give the hug a webhook callback. The Hub calls the webhook when it receives new content notifications from the publisher.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: and now for that, please add that as an FAQ on /PuSH
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tantek "Subscribers give the hub* a webhook callback."
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KartikPrabhu full of turkey can't add now... morning
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owen1 oh. so pubsubhubhub uses webhooks.
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tantek sleepy time for me otherwise I'd add it. night.
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KartikPrabhu night
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tantek see you in the morning KartikPrabhu
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/aaronpk/538071230041956352/223922112 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup (webmention)
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owen1 reading http://aaronparecki.com/presentations/2014/10/17/1/files/slides/#indiewebcamp-2011
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cweiske.de uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:tt-rss.png]]""
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cweiske.de edited /tt-rss (+45) (view diff)
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cweiske tantek, why did you highlight "They were quite inefficient" but not the following "old scripts" in http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#HubMed ?
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cweiske.de edited /feed (+179) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ unexamples" (view diff)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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thedod hi
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owen1 yo
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thedod sorry. back. I have thoughts about what I call "subjective comment threading" (it ends with a question) https://github.com/thedod/redwind/wiki/Subjective-comment-threading
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thedod even better: a webmentionable link https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/subjective-indiewebcamp-comment-threading
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thedod comments are welcome (although comment *nesting* would only come later :) )
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snarfed !tell tantek looks like you had the "include link” checkbox unchecked when you previewed and sent that post, at least according to the logs. I'll double check though.
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 56 minutes ago: looks like Bridgy Publish to FB is no longer providing the "Originally posted at" text in POSSE copies, e.g. see original in Edit history on https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101383480740303
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/almereyda/537885575924432896/538071230041956352 linked to http://IndieWebCamp.com/ (webmention)
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owen1 this is interesting - http://substack.net/offline_decentralized_single_sign_on_in_the_browser
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michielbdejong owen1: yes! just heard about it yesterday as well, exciting stuff. I posted about it on the unhosted mailing list: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/unhosted/s7KUg88omn0/pSUI7X-p3AoJ
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@pgte RT @rhiaro: Support IndieHosters! http://www.wired.com/2014/11/indie-hosters/ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indiehosters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/538354080952098816)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 6 hours, 31 minutes ago: looks like you had the "include link” checkbox unchecked when you previewed and sent that post, at least according to the logs. I'll double check though.
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tantek !tell benwerd,erinjo is there a black friday special on Known Pro? ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell snarfed oh there's a checkbox for "include link"? somehow I thought it was automatic. is that new? consider default "checked" to help promote indie web sites? (another reason to default "include link": it's easier to edit / remove it, than edit / add it after the fact also)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell snarfed when I look at https://www.brid.gy/facebook/214611 "[x] Include link" is default checked, so I don't understand what went wrong. Or maybe Bridgy Publish depends on JS? I was using NoScript with none of the JS enabled.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek catches up on logs
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tantek !tell thedod - "subjective comment threading" seems like quite the deep dive. Consider this challenge instead: post 100% of your notes on your own site first, then POSSE to Twitter. ownyournotes and never post first to Twitter per http://indiewebcamp.com/ownyourdata#Per_Silo
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek lol cweiske re: "unexamples" - seriously? there's no point to that - since by default nothing supports anything. going to revert.
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tantek.com edited /feed (-179) "Undo revision 15774 by [[Special:Contributions/Cweiske.de|Cweiske.de]] ([[User talk:Cweiske.de|talk]]) Pointless to add "unexamples" - since by default nothing supports anything" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /hatom (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /hAtom (+152) "note based on Atom, and superseded by h-feed and h-entry" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /hAtom (-1) "/* See Also */ -s" (view diff)
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tantek !tell cweiske if you're looking for an opportunity to criticize or harshly double-check h-entry *or* hentry adoption, what *would be* useful is checking to see if anyone *dropped* usage, e.g. check http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples-in-wild#examples_by_category and note which (if any) no longer support it.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed tantek__: aha, noscript may be the problem. it should degrade gracefully without js, but i don't test that often enough. i'll check that
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 55 minutes ago: oh there's a checkbox for "include link"? somehow I thought it was automatic. is that new? consider default "checked" to help promote indie web sites? (another reason to default "include link": it's easier to edit / remove it, than edit / add it after the fact also)
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 54 minutes ago: when I look at https://www.brid.gy/facebook/214611 "[x] Include link" is default checked, so I don't understand what went wrong. Or maybe Bridgy Publish depends on JS? I was using NoScript with none of the JS enabled.
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@nitot Meetup #Decentralisation #4 le 16/12 chez @mozillaparis avec @benwerd & @withknown : http://www.meetup.com/Paris-Meetup-pour-la-decentralisation-dInternet/events/218943348/ ! cc @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/538389410950447105)
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@benwerd RT @nitot: Meetup #Decentralisation #4 le 16/12 chez @mozillaparis avec @benwerd & @withknown : http://www.meetup.com/Paris-Meetup-pour-la-decentralisation-dInternet/events/218943348/ ! cc @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/538389487751933952)
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@Sphinx_Twitt RT @nitot: Meetup #Decentralisation #4 le 16/12 chez @mozillaparis avec @benwerd & @withknown : http://www.meetup.com/Paris-Meetup-pour-la-decentralisation-dInternet/events/218943348/ ! cc @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/538390554774888448)
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@airbornesurfer Why I Joined the IndieWeb Movement http://airbornesurfer.com/2014/10/why-i-joined-the-indieweb-movement/ (twitter.com/_/status/538393047663648768)
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fiatjaf if I have an h-feed inside my main h-entry will that be picked and used by indie-readers (or whoever uses h-feed)?
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fiatjaf is there an HTML tag that is naturally invisible, without styles?
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fiatjaf <tag hidden></tag>
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bret fiatjaf: not sure, I would check how it parses
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bret i dont support h-feed directly, other than having a list of h-entries on my front page
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bret fiatjaf: you can play around with barnabys mf2toatom gateway to experiment
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fiatjaf snarfed: I'm trying to publish a post with bridgy, but I'm getting "Error: 'dict' object has no attribute 'strip'" when it is parsing my html (I presume), right after clicking "Preview". what should I do?
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bret.io edited /h-feed (+81) "/* Barnaby Walters */ Added mf2 to atom gateway link" (view diff)
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bret fiatjaf: here is the link https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/
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fiatjaf ah, I was searching for it without success
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fiatjaf thank you, bret
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fiatjaf no, it doesn't work.
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fiatjaf but it should!
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bret fiatjaf: http://tools.transmat.io/ is another generic parser
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bret mf2 -> json
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snarfed fiatjaf: sorry about that! fixing now…
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fiatjaf bret: it is parsed (also at http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffiatjaf.alhur.es%2F), but the h-feed shows as a child of h-entry and is not picked by the mf-to-atom nor by http://pipes.yahoo.com/pipes/pipe.info?_id=afc5568b4e8643bfb05436b1caaf91bc
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bret lol is heroku down? I cant seem to get to my dashboard
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bret fiatjaf: cool, so mf2 is still working. would be a matter of fixing the transform
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bret fiatjaf: what are you using the feed for inside an h-entry?
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bret like a comments feed?
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fiatjaf I have a hierarchical structure
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fiatjaf pages inside of pages
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fiatjaf a blog/ page, and all posts are children of blog/, for example
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bret so far people have been subscribing to 'h-feeds' from pages with a series of h-entries on the page
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bret so the feed identification process hasn't been made very robust yet
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bret although, parsing more complicated structures still works fine
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /h-feed (+246) "added links to relevant testing and consumption resources elsewhere" (view diff)
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snarfed fiatjaf: so, the short answer for the bridgy publish bug is, you're using an e-summary class, which from what i can tell, doesn't exist
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snarfed you want p-summary instead
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snarfed http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-entry
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fiatjaf oops
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fiatjaf sorry
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snarfed fiatjaf: np! i'll make bridgy handle it nicely soon
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@ya_f RT @nitot: Meetup #Decentralisation #4 le 16/12 chez @mozillaparis avec @benwerd & @withknown : http://www.meetup.com/Paris-Meetup-pour-la-decentralisation-dInternet/events/218943348/ ! cc @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/538413103558717440)
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@TheRealDod https://github.com/thedod/redwind/wiki/Subjective-comment-threading Q: how to display cross-site #IndieWebCamp conversation threads? #redwind cc @kylewm2 https://twitter.com/TheRealDod/status/538428737512275968/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/538428737512275968)
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thedod o/
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Loqi thedod: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 30 minutes ago: - "subjective comment threading" seems like quite the deep dive. Consider this challenge instead: post 100% of your notes on your own site first, then POSSE to Twitter. ownyournotes and never post first to Twitter per http://indiewebcamp.com/ownyourdata#Per_Silo
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thedod !tell tantek in my example I assume all authors are using indiewebcamp sites. a solution that requires silos is a flawed one IMHO
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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parzzix bridgy doesn't seem to consistant...I sometimes go days with no updates to my posts
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535685388309127168/1080511388 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/1080511388 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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