#indiewebcamp 2014-11-29

2014-11-29 UTC
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wolftune hi everyone! note: Snowdrift.coop fund-drive is now live https://snowdrift.tilt.com
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wolftune oh and since we're on IRC I should mention that our channel is #snowdrift
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tantek_____ good evening #indiewebcamp
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Loqi tantek_____: thedod left you a message 4 hours, 45 minutes ago: in my example I assume all authors are using indiewebcamp sites. a solution that requires silos is a flawed one IMHO
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tantek_____ !tell thedod are you now posting all notes/tweets/replies from your own site dubiousdod.org/indie and never directly to Twitter ? if so, add yourself to /ownyourdata#IndieWeb_Examples !
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People () "(-3329) Part of the point of this page is to have individuals *THEMSELVES* edit this page and add their URL *and* their icon. Undo revision 15765 by [[Special:Contributions/Fiatjaf.alhur.es|Fiatjaf.alhur.es]] ([[User talk:Fiatjaf.alhur.es|talk]])" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People (+311) "emphasize please only add yourself, encourage others to add themselves instead of doing it for them" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+140) "/* one-off person-area-tag reply to photo */ add a couple of area tag / image map references to feed into docs" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+340) "increase findability of single-page-antipattern notes, add a couple of citations" (view diff)
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snarfed !tell parzzix sorry bridgy's seemed inconsistent for you! do you know if you're missing things entirely? (see https://www.brid.gy/about#missing ) or if they just seem delayed? it slows down a bit if it hasn't sent you a webmention for a while, down to once a day at the slowest, but speeds back up when it sends another, so it could be that.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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colintedford.com edited /short-domains (+254) "/* Domains */ .us" (view diff)
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colintedford.com edited /User:Colintedford.com (+73) "/* For now */ mark done items re: comics nav" (view diff)
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owen1 is https://unhosted.org/ related to this channel? is it someone that is part of indiewebcamp?
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colintedford I'm pretty sure one or two of the Unhosted folks drop by occasionally.
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colintedford Looks like there've been a couple of talks on the topic at past IndieWebCamps, there'a wiki page about it. http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Search?search=unhosted&fulltext=Search
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colintedford owen1 ^
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colintedford Hm, guess the page is just a stub.
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owen1 colintedford: thanks. it seems like a very similar idea
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colintedford Yeah, I don't understand the unhosted stuff in detail but it seems quite intriguing & certainly related.
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owen1 hi is basicaly say - host your stuff (;
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owen1 own it, set up your domain, server, db whatever
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colintedford Yeah, I got the general idea :)
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colintedford I've read through a bunch of the posts at unhosted.org but the technical parts are mostly beyond me as a layperson.
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owen1 i love the fact that you can almost copy paste his code
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owen1 oh yeah. it's for developers. i think it's mostly node.js stuff, from the quick look i took
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colintedford Yeah. I look forward to seeing that stuff eventually become more accessible, though; sounded pretty exciting.
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owen1 colintedford: interesting. i guess what's missing is instructions for non devs.
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KevinMarks__ !tell snarfed does a summary have to be a p-summary and not an e-summary? What if a not purely textual summary makes more sense? Could an image be a summary?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__ do you mean featured image there? that would be u-featured
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KevinMarks__ No, I'm thinking about summary in the broadest sense, that encompasses twitter cards and Facebook previews too
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KevinMarks__ Summaries should be html
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KevinMarks__ In the broadest sense - I can imagine a mathml summary
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/532165722299203584/940760341 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/940760341 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/521329668457521152/940760341 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Schedule (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535685388309127168/940760341 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535882926601560064/940760341 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/516749008979890177/940760341 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/516749008979890177/940760341 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-29 (webmention)
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@FSFEfrance Mardi 16 décembre, introduction aux technologies IndieWeb et au logiciel Known avec @benwerd chez @MozillaParis http://www.meetup.com/Paris-Meetup-pour-la-decentralisation-dInternet/events/218943348/ (twitter.com/_/status/538673638049062912)
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@hugoroyd RT @FSFEfrance: Mardi 16 décembre, introduction aux technologies IndieWeb et au logiciel Known avec @benwerd chez @MozillaParis http://t.co… (twitter.com/_/status/538675207872196608)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/534747600390721537/940760341 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (webmention)
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snarfed KevinMarks_: re p-summary, you're right, i was thinking narrowly based on the mf wiki and existing code (including bridgy)
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Loqi snarfed: KevinMarks__ left you a message 9 hours, 6 minutes ago: does a summary have to be a p-summary and not an e-summary? What if a not purely textual summary makes more sense? Could an image be a summary?
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snarfed i'd generally defer broader mf2 questions to you and others :P
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@Chota1210 Enabling Webmentions http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/538749869322551297)
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www.kryogenix.org edited /Webmention (+681) "Add Stuart Langridge to implementations list" (view diff)
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bret woo hoo!
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aaronpk nice!
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bret Stuart Langridge, inventor of pingback, is hopping on the webmention bandwagon :D http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 11/26 at 3:54pm: could you create a stub FB POSSE event copy of
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 11/26 at 3:54pm: could you create a stub FB POSSE event copy of https://aaronparecki.com/events/2014/12/03/1/homebrew-website-club and rel-syndication link to it from your original? If you make me a co-organizer of it I can take care of adding details/fields etc. Thanks! -t
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@sil Set up webmentions on my site. http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ Thank you to @voxpelli for assistance and @AaronGustafson and @adactio for inspiration (twitter.com/_/status/538752647067475968)
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@aaronpk @sil Congrats! This is exciting to see! #indieweb (http://aaron.pk/r4ZP1) (twitter.com/_/status/538755296324096001)
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@planet_u_ng Stuart Langridge: Enabling Webmentions http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/538757153985933313)
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@LinuxLibraryNet Stuart Langridge: Enabling Webmentions http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/538761147990953984)
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@IndieHosters Inventor of pingback jumps on the webmention bandwaggon http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/538772210820083713)
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@unhosted RT @IndieHosters: Inventor of pingback jumps on the webmention bandwaggon http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/538772319708409856)
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@hugoroyd RT @IndieHosters: Inventor of pingback jumps on the webmention bandwaggon http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/538773025743966210)
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bret neat, jekyll is getting incremental regeneration
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bret should help with some of its scaling issues
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@sil @aaronpk does https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/29/1/indieweb link to the root of my site rather than the post in question because I've done something wrong? (twitter.com/_/status/538778017649414144)
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@mattur RT @IndieHosters: Inventor of pingback jumps on the webmention bandwaggon http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/538778370654601216)
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Loqi [mention] http://hitechnews.mobi/stuart-langridge-enabling-webmentions/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://hitechnews.mobi/stuart-langridge-enabling-webmentions/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch (pingback)
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@sil What about hashcash for webmention spam (not Vouch)? Pass time_t & nonce, where sha256(target+time+nonce).startswith("000000") /cc @aaronpk (twitter.com/_/status/538789224166993920)
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aquarius I'm sure someone must have already thought of this, but my google-fu is weak today. Wouldn't a hashcash approach be useful against webmention spam? So you POST source=http://source/article&target=http://target/whatever&time=1417292519&nonce=5684712, where sha256(http://target/whatever+1417292519) starts with "000000" and time is less than, say, five minutes ago? So it takes 5 seconds to generate the nonce, which
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aquarius makes large-scale spamming infeasible?
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aquarius Ahh, it's mentioned in the context of preventing a ddos, but not to stop spam generally, which I think it might at least help to attenuate?
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snarfed aquarius: as usual with most problems like this, adoption is one of the biggest challenges at the beginning
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snarfed especially with something like hashcash spam prevention which needs both sides to implement it to be useful
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bret im not exactly sure, but vouch was the first spam prevention tactic because its more useful against the kind of spam first expected?
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aquarius snarfed, certainly, yeah. But there are not *that* many implementations of webmentions, yet, I believe.
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snarfed a fair amount, at least code wise if not instance wise. even the existing vouch design is only implemented in a few
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aquarius I personally worry very seriously about how I'd find a link that will vouch for me and is trusted by the target. Without the whole everyone-has-a-foaf-profile thing taking off, which it hasn't :)
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snarfed more importantly though, we don't really see native webmention spam yet, so the motivation is a bit weak
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bret the only WM spam so far has been pingback to WM gateway spam, and silo spam via bridgy
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snarfed right
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aquarius oh, totally; part of the reason I suggested a hashcash thing is it's about three lines of code in everyone's send-webmentions function and another three in the endpoint and two extra parameters in the POST, rather than requiring a big social network :)
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snarfed sorry though, i should have said up front: hashcash definitely makes sense! if i have objections, they're not design or technical
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aquarius and if it's baked in at the beginning then it's easier than trying to get it adopted later :)
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bret i think hash cash would be cool to implement. plus it won't break form WMs..
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aquarius indeed not
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bret since you can hash cash with JS
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bret right?
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aquarius yep
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snarfed aquarius: what's your web site?
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aquarius kryogenix.org
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snarfed ah! cool, didn't realize that was you
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bret having functions isn't that hard, but we definitely want to be carful with crypto stuff as it has a tendency to make things hard/scary for new implementors (i.e. salmon)
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bret hasing*
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snarfed selfishly, i also shudder a bit at the cost it'd impose on proxies like bridgy
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aquarius bret, hashcash function: take a known string (above I propose time + target url), and then compute a nonce such that sha256(known string + nonce) begins with "000000" -- one sets the number of zeroes to control the difficulty of the hashing function.
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snarfed (but that's an externality, don't mind me)
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aquarius ah. Now, a prove-you-have-done-work idea such as hashcash will totally sod up proxies. Heh. :)
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bret snarfed: maybe a WM could take a vouch and/or cash
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aquarius ya
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snarfed people already whitelist bridgy, i'd probably just propose that
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snarfed yeah, basically
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aquarius vouch is clearly better than hashcash
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aquarius bridgy is popular enough that it can probably vouch for itself ;)
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bret you can't really vouch automatically with a form
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bret without external logic afaict
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aquarius yeah. I honestly can't think of a way that a script can vouch; it'll require manual intervention, which I am wildly against :)
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aquarius mainly because if I have to (a) find a vouch for each external link I put in a post or (b) just not put the external link in, I'll do (b), so it just disincentivises people to do the right thing :)
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bret i think barnaby was thinking about adding hash cash stuff to WM processing a while back
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aquarius also, it basically bakes "this is a clique" into the rules. It's like the web version of Mean Girls.
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bret aquarius: start stub subsection here http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Brainstorming
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aquarius but this is just how I feel about it :)
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snarfed aquarius++ on the clique point
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Loqi aquarius has 1 karma
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bret yeah i don't want mean girls/boys
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bret the best way to see it is to implement it... its going to break the WM curl workflow, but you can add it as a form with a JS hashing lib
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michielbdejong don't forget that the web is itself a clique. only pages that have inbound links are on the web, really
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aquarius definition of a clique: a thing that you are not in and which you will find it hard or impossible to join. The web is the first bit but not the second. :)
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michielbdejong i think it's useful to think about how a spammer would react to Vouch
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michielbdejong right, that's true.
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michielbdejong it should be effortless for a human to send their first webmention
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bret aquarius: i don't have much time this week, but could help put some html+js patterns into a git repo for creating a WM + hashcash form submissions
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michielbdejong if you have to get mentioned before starting to mention yourself, that's not so nice
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aquarius I can probably do something like that, yeah
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bret i can help to, but I need to finish this school quarter first ;)
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aquarius question: if someone has curl, which command line hashing thing can I pretty much also assume that they've got? python? openssl? (perl? wince)
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aquarius I'm an Ubuntu bloke, so I don't know what I can pretty much guarantee is there
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bret ermm
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bret there are a few webmention cli tools now for python and node
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aquarius oh, sure, and I'd be happy to add code to them
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aquarius I was thinking about the curl one-liner use case
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bret oh like piping it
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bret i dunno
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aquarius which it ought to also be possible to do with a hashcash thing
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michielbdejong "Hashcash was invented by Adam, back in 1997" :) http://hashcash.org/
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aquarius ya, this is hashcash-ish, what I'm proposing, not necessarily exactly hashcash :)
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bret aquarius michielbdejong, re the vouch network, in theory we could bootstrap vouches off existing silo graphs. no one has done it yet though
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bret IE linking to your twitter, your contacts there act as vouches
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aquarius does "echo foo | openssl dgst -sha256" work out of the box on a mac?
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bret i have dev tools buuuut
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bret b5bb9d8014a0f9b1d61e21e796d78dccdf1352f23cd32812f4850b878ae4944c
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bret coming from /usr/bin/openssl
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aquarius good :)
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bret which is.. not home-brew. but maybe xcode
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bret its not symlinked, which means its probably there by default, but don't quote me on that
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michielbdejong we could build a web page for it as well
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bret tbh, sending web mentions with curl one liners gets sorta complicated
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bret even without hash cash
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bret http://bret.io/pages/outbox/
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michielbdejong the default should be your CMS takes care of it, i think
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bret totally agree
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bret ok i gtg for a bit
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KartikPrabhu reading back...
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KartikPrabhu vouch can be sent automatically
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bret from a html form?
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KartikPrabhu why not it is a parameter in a request
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bret requires finding a vouch link
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bret which could be easy or hard, depending on who you are talking to
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KartikPrabhu yeah, but it can be done
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KartikPrabhu also your reader software/CMS could find a vouch link for you
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, the form can't find one itself, I think is the point. You'd need two text boxes: one saying "what's your source?" and one saying "which URL vouches for it?"
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aquarius agreed that once you *have* a vouching URL, sending it is the easy bit :)
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KartikPrabhu no the form could find a vouch link for you
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bret CMS backed vouches seems the most reasonable interface
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bret for vouch sending
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KartikPrabhu I mean is 2 boxes a problem?
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bret its not the box, its vouch discovery
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aquarius ya. My objection to Vouch is that it's hard to find a voucher.
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KartikPrabhu yeah. the sender has to do some work to send a mention, that is the point
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aquarius It's not *automateable* work, though.
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: it is automateable
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michielbdejong i also think receiving a mention and displaying it are two different things. you could whitelist people, and put everyone else into a moderation queue
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KartikPrabhu vouch was made to avoid etensive moderation
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aquarius Srsly, if I want to drop a link into a post which says "thanks to this person", and I have to go and work out which of our friends we have in common and which one already links to me and already links to them, then I'm really just not gonna add the link, and so no credit or attention is given.
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: no.
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michielbdejong aquarius: good point
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KartikPrabhu you have to sent that person a webmention notification
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KartikPrabhu you can link to him all you want
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michielbdejong yeah, but it's nice to show up in the comments under the post
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: really!
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aquarius right, but the point of webmentions is to make the conversation automatically two-way
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michielbdejong the person would still receive the mention, and have the option to approve it for displaying
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aquarius so I become aware when the discussion is continuing elsewhere.
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KartikPrabhu sure. and automated systems are prone to spam. this is a way to avoid it if you want. Vouch is not a compulsory part of webmention
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michielbdejong aquarius: that problem is solved if you don't display comments
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aquarius michielbdejong, it's solved for *me*. It's not solved for others who want to join the conversation, right?
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michielbdejong right
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KartikPrabhu what is "solved"?
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aquarius I read a post on your site; it'd be cool to see if that discussion you started carried on elsewhere.
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aquarius if you don't display comments then I can't do that.
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michielbdejong so how about, everybody publishes a list of people they follow.
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michielbdejong that would fix everything
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aquarius a blogroll, indeed.
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aquarius how would it fix stuff?
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michielbdejong yes
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: that has been suggested as a mechanism for vouch discovery
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aquarius in particular, how does a new person join the conversation?
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michielbdejong that is what's hard, yes
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aquarius that's why I don't like vouch.
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michielbdejong you need to be followed by at least one person
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michielbdejong that's what creates the threshold
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: do you siggest then that I should accept all in coming mentions?
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aquarius I understand that there are certainly some people who are only interested in hearing conversation and discussion from people they are already friends with, and that's fine -- but I think institutionalising that concept as the way it *has* to work to prevent misuse is short-sighted. :)
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: right now, that is still safe, yes. but it won't be next year, anymore, when spam starts
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: vouch is not instituionalised. it has been formalised as an option. you don't have to receive or send vouches
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, yep, and do post-moderation, in conjunction with something that makes it hard for spammers to affect you without specifically targeting you (hence the proof-of-work idea above).
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: the proof-of-work can also be vouch
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KartikPrabhu no one is saying you have to reject vouchless metions.
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michielbdejong aquarius: yes, i have to admit you're right :) it's just a captcha problem, really. the question is not 'do you have friends', but rather 'are you human'
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KartikPrabhu if a mention has no vouch then by all means add it to your moderation queue
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: no. the question is also about harrassment and trolling
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aquarius sure! I'd certainly go along with what snarfed (or bret) said above, that if you're vouched for, you don't need a further proof-of-work
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michielbdejong yes, so provide both mechanisms? either have friends or do work?
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aquarius but I think there ought to be a more friendly choice than the one between "manual pre-moderation", "get spam", or "be in the clique". :)
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: i don't see how we can fix trolling, that seems much harder. i thought we were trying to fix spam, first
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: aquarius: none of these are compulsory. if you want to have moderation, captcha, vouch you are free to pick one or all of them
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KartikPrabhu it is your site. do what you like
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, but there's no way to know what methods you accept
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KartikPrabhu yup.
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michielbdejong aquarius: would you be willing to resolve a captcha to say "thank you for this post"?
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KartikPrabhu that is also my choice. I might publish my methods or not
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aquarius and hitting the endpoint twice for each wm (once to get a list and once to send a wm) seems fairly inefficient to me
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: not each wm. vouch only happens the first time
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, it only happens the first time for a given website. However, I don't repeatedly link to the same website, 'cos the web is pretty big :)
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KartikPrabhu and even with vouch you don't send 2 pings. if you are sending a mention to some site for the first time then just include a potential vouch the first ime
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aquarius michielbdejong, from the point of view of being prepared to do it, sure. From a *practical* point of view, it's harder, because my site is statically generated... so outgoing WMs are resolved at build time, which is me running "make rsync_output" in a terminal and there's nowhere to show a captcha :)
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michielbdejong aquarius: ok, that's a good point
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aquarius michielbdejong, if that were just a peculiarity of my setup then I think that's reasonable, of course, but I think this approach is common-ish -- there's not necessarily a convenient web UI around to show a captcha in. (It makes native clients a bit harder, etc.)
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michielbdejong yeah
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KartikPrabhu a statius site could build vouch paramenters along with mention links
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aquarius http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Webmention&action=submit#proof-of-work_addition_to_webmention_to_help_avoid_spam added to wiki as requested
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, the problem from my point of view (maybe I'm misunderstanding) is that I have no way at all to know who out there might (a) vouch for me and (b) be trusted by you
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: what if someone comes along and objects to proof-of-work as being to cliquie-y?
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: yes. <shrug>
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, the clique problem is that it's hard to get into the clique and that's not something that you personally can fix.
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KartikPrabhu yeah proof-of-work is too hard
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michielbdejong i guess my only objection to hashcash is environmental, it wastes electricity
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aquarius I personally don't like approaches where I'm locked out and there isn't anything I can do about it; it's a popularity contest. The school playground writ large. :)
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: so don't use them.
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aquarius michielbdejong, it does. Not all that much, but I agree with you. I am, however, prepared to bet that I can hash a thing faster than you can find someone who will vouch for you and whom I trust, which also uses electricity ;)
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michielbdejong aquarius: otoh, you are talking about whether someone else will display what you write. that's not automatic. it requires a bit of playground politics.
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: you can use proff-of-work if you'd like. I can use vouch if I want
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KartikPrabhu also even if I accept your webemntion. there is no guarantee that i'll show it
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michielbdejong maybe relates to KartikPrabhu's troller point - maybe it's not just about whether your human
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KartikPrabhu I mean you accpet human moderation (the most clique-y and playground politics mechanism) but you don't like vouch!
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, totally! That's what I was trying to explain above, but I may have done it wrongly. If you prefer to only display an engagement in conversation with people you already trust, that's cool. What I'm trying to avoid is Vouch being basically the only game in town other than horrific spam. :)
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: when i say 'accept' i mean 'display'. I will receive all mentions in my inbox, which I can read privately
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: I don't implement vouch. not needed it yet
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: yes. I can recieve your webmention with proof of work, with vouch and choose not the display it.
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aquarius michielbdejong, your point about playground politics is well taken. I suppose I think of WM as being about making links bi-directional
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KartikPrabhu webmention is a notification. not a contract
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: it is. if the receiver displays your post
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www.kryogenix.org edited /Webmention (+1327) (view diff)
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michielbdejong another option would be to display different mentions in different sizes, the spam ones behind a 'more ...' link
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: how do you decide which is spam?
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: i'm undecided between social graph and proof-of-work. maybe a combination
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aquarius yeah -- the idea of applying degrees of trust to incoming mentions seems perfectly doable for someone who wanted to go that far (plain mention: trust level 1, hashcashed: trust level 2, vouched: trust level 3, etc)
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KartikPrabhu if you have decided something is spam, then why show it
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KartikPrabhu increasing the noise in your posts's discussion?
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: just the principle of supporting two-way links
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: really!? you want to link to spam posts out there?
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michielbdejong if i actively decided something is definitely spam then, i would delete it of course
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michielbdejong but i want to leave the default open
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KartikPrabhu also the proof-of-work concept needs a lot of techincal know-how, and won't be great for a beginner anyway. It is almost as clique-y. with the clique now being people who uinderstand this
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: true that. except if you use a CMS like Known
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: then what is the point of having automated alogrithms if you will manually moderate everything anyway
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michielbdejong i think it's time indieweb grows beyond homebrew
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: then I can use my CMS and proof-of-work to send spam to people
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: yes, but it will cost you $$$
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KartikPrabhu wait so sending proof-of-work costs money?
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: yes
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KartikPrabhu ok. I'm out
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michielbdejong it's CPU time
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aquarius I agree with that know-how point, certainly. I'm not *sure* that there's a big gap between "people who understand a curl command line" and "people who understand how to call a sha256 function", but there is potentially a gap there. (I am assuming that "people who don't understand the curl command line" will be using some sort of library or existing CMS which handles it for them.
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: sending a webmention does not require you to know curl
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KartikPrabhu you can do it through a form
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, not actual money. CPU time, which is of minimal impact to you sending a webmention, but is a much bigger problem if you want to send a million webmentions.
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michielbdejong aquarius: I'm not here to free people who can already use curl. Programmers are born free. We need to build the open web for all the other Earthlings
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: yes. I'm out still. CPU time specially on hosted shared servers is not cheap anyway
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KartikPrabhu so much for being beginnner friendly
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michielbdejong exposes his background as a fedsocweb dreamer
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, yep -- that form will submit to a webmention endpoint which will then show the user JSON. If you are knowledgeable enough to submit the form with JS, then I would suggest that you're also knowledgeable enough to include a simple JS library.
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: it's true that although it's money, probably a cost of like 0,01 USD per mention is enough to deter spammers
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aquarius michielbdejong, if one's using a system which does WMs for you, having the system author (who does understand this stuff) add a couple of lines of code to the library is in my thoughts not a problem.
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, think of it as a time constraint: if it takes you five seconds to send a WM, then it doesn't affect you much, but it means that a spammer can only send 12 a minute, not 12,000 a minute :)
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aquarius oh
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michielbdejong aquarius: i agree. i'm interested in the CMS case. End users uses Known. Known takes care of everything.
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aquarius *nod*
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michielbdejong still, spending CPU power is not ideal
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aquarius there is some tuning to be done in terms of "make it easy enough that it doesn't significantly affect real people" and "make it hard enough that you can't do it a million times".
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aquarius not sure there will ever be One True Answer here, of course. :)
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michielbdejong indeed
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michielbdejong and there's the uncertainty if the receiver will even require the proof-of-work. you may be doing the work for nothing, if they were going to accept it anyway.
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michielbdejong ok, i have an idea
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michielbdejong proof-you-are-human.com
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aquarius this is true, but I think I'd suggest that asking them *if* they'll accept it is more impacting than doing the work :)
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michielbdejong you do the proof of work, and it can be your vouch
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aquarius huh
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aquarius sneaky.
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michielbdejong CMS systems whitelist proof-you-are-human.com by default
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aquarius so we just do vouch as before but build a site which autovouches
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michielbdejong so we built hashcash into Vouch
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aquarius that way it's all built on vouch
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michielbdejong yep
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aquarius eeeeeeenteresting
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michielbdejong no more playground politics barrier
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aquarius it feels -- this is not as much of a criticism as it sounds -- it feels a bit like a hack. Like the sort of thing you'd do if we'd built vouch two years ago and it was the standard rather than something done at the beginning before there are standards. :)
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aquarius but I'm not sure that's necessarily a *problem*
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aquarius and it's quite a neat hack -- it hacks the concept rather than the code :)
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michielbdejong yes, see your point
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michielbdejong but it keeps complexity inside one URL
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michielbdejong someone else might propose a captcha-based or whatever-based enter-the-playground site
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aquarius mmmm, I like it
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aquarius so if you think "man, finding vouchers is hard", then you set up "do-this-$thing.com" and if everyone agrees that your $thing is difficult enough, they'll whitelist you.
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michielbdejong yep
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aquarius schneaky.
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michielbdejong and if it turns out that spammers start showing up on do-X.com then it will get downvoted again
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michielbdejong thanks! ;)
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www.kryogenix.org edited /Webmention (+382) "/* proof-of-work addition to webmention to help avoid spam */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: I am not submitting a form through JS. It is just an HTML form
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aquarius michielbdejong, http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention#proof-of-work_addition_to_webmention_to_help_avoid_spam updated with that idea
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, that is of course fine. My concern with doing that is that a WM endpoint returns JSON, as per spec. So if you submit an HTML form in the browser to a WM endpoint, your end user gets a screen of meaningless technical gibberish.
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KartikPrabhu no. my webemntion end point just return plain text
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KartikPrabhu Another point is right now I have a "send me a link to your reply" under my posts. I can easily add a vouch parameter to it, but I can't do that with proof-of-work. example of such a form: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/helvetica-mcdonalds-erikspierkermann
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KartikPrabhu using this, people who don't have automated webmention sending can also send me a webmention (and adding vouch to this is not hard)
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aquarius Adding a proof of work to that form is a few lines of JavaScript. I understand that you might not want to do that, though, which is fine.
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KartikPrabhu wait you want the readers browser to run hash-computing javascript!?
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aquarius for a couple of seconds, yep; but as I say, not everyone wants that, of course.
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KartikPrabhu also, if I accpet vouch and someone does not send me one, I can return a nice response saying "I don't know you. Could you also send me a link that links to your site that you think I might trust?" How do I do that for proof-of-work ? people know what "find a link is" but not "do this hash thing on your CPU..."
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aaronpk i think it's important to note that vouch doesn't require the vouch URL support webmention or any sort of additional markup
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KartikPrabhu yup!
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aaronpk it's literally just "find someone who linked to me"
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: that response will not be displayed to the end-user, necessarily
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: then it is not user friendly. you didnt tell me why this thing failed
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aquarius aaronpk, certainly; what worries me is that I don't know how to easily find someone who links to me and is trusted by you.
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: if you are on the /irc-people list then you have one right there...
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, "I don't know you, so I need to establish that you're not a robot. Could you fill in this captcha, or press this button and wait five seconds, while I verify you are prepared to do work?"
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: define failed - the webmention was sent successfully, the receiver chose not to display it very prominently
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme had some code that would help find a URL I think
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: I don't like the "running a script on the users browser part" who know what your script is doing
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: my comment is not being displayed you should tell me why
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@aaronpk @sil There's been some discussion about that on the webmention page: http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention#proof-of-work_addition_to_webmention_to_help_avoid_spam (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/29/2/webmention) (twitter.com/_/status/538811165778784256)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/29/2/webmention linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention#proof-of-work_addition_to_webmention_to_help_avoid_spam (webmention)
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aaronpk (aquarius: just wanted to get that reply on the twitters, I know we're talking about it here)
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aquarius aaronpk, equivalent problem: find someone who will tell you my mobile number. We're both reasonably visible, reasonably well-connected web people; we know a bunch of the same friends. If you wanted my mobile number, you could find it through a chain of friends. But you know of no efficient way of doing so -- you basically have to ask people we might both know at random
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aquarius aaronpk, ha! I just wrote that :)
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aquarius oh, right good :)
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aaronpk yeah that's a good analogy
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aaronpk here's the current brainstorming on how you'd find a vouch URL http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch#How_can_a_sender_find_a_vouch_link
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aquarius Yeah. It basically assumes that there is a vouch URL out there to be found -- that is, that A and B would happily trust one another but they just haven't got round to it yet
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aquarius which means that it, in my opinion, blocks new people from entering a conversation.
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: have you encountered such a situation?
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aquarius (not new to the conversation: new to the social group)
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KartikPrabhu sounds like pre-mature optimisation
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michielbdejong so that's where proof-you-are-human.com comes ing
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michielbdejong in
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, yep. I get @mentioned on twitter by people I do not know and have never heard of, but who follow me, *all the time*. And mostly their conversation is valuable to me.
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KartikPrabhu ok then follow twitter model and accpet all mentions
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aquarius michielbdejong, yep. I like that idea. :)
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: accept != retweet
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KartikPrabhu <sigh> sounds like a indieweb silo to me <shrugs?>
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: I didn't say retweet
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KartikPrabhu do you moderate twitter replies? twitter @-mentions, twitter favs?
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michielbdejong but webmention is about displaying comments. that's why the spam problem is even real
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KartikPrabhu no
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KartikPrabhu webmention is about notifying the other person
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aaronpk i'm wondering if Vouch would still work in that case. Because it's not like you have to link to people first before you accept their webmentions
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aquarius Twitter put some effort into removing spammers so that I don't have to do it manually. Nobody is doing that for my site other than me, and in a world where we don't have big central organisations who can get a sense of everything that's going on and detect spam through big data, I think it's important to make it a bit harder to spam.
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aaronpk aquarius: so up until a couple days ago, you never heard of me and never linked to me. But I can go look at your Twitter page and scan a few tweets down and find someone you've talked to recently that has also talked with me.
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michielbdejong aaronpk: by 'accept' you mean 'display as a comment', right?
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: also on twitter any reply to your post is automatically displayed below yours
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aaronpk michielbdejong: displaying as a comment is secondary to accepting
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: but nothing stops spam replies from showing up in your tweet replies?
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KartikPrabhu you don't moderate them, have proof-of-work
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aaronpk aquarius: so I look a few tweets down and I find that you recently linked to @jancborchardt
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aquarius aaronpk, I do not ask this as an accusation, and it's not meant to sound snide, but: do you *like* doing manual moderation of stuff? I mean, having to go find friends of friends in order to link to someone, and having to check friends of friends to see if they should be allowed to link to me... it just seems like a terribly onerous amount of manual work to me?
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aaronpk I think "hey I'm pretty sure we had a conversation online in the past" and find a post from him
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/jancborchardt/status/239914510243201026
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@jancborchardt @aallan @aaronpk yeah, and for those cases you need to decide on the good default: relative dates in stream, absolute on detail page. (twitter.com/_/status/239914510243201026)
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: I hereby dare you to write graffitti on https://twitter.com/michielbdejong
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aaronpk aquarius: I'm also similarly not intending to sound snide :) just trying to walk through this
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: i mean. you can block me. but that is after the fact
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aaronpk the point is that actually digging up the links should be a pretty automated process given our tools
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KartikPrabhu unless you have blocked me already
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michielbdejong aaronpk: spammers will likely not be friends of jancborchardt :)
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aaronpk for example I found that tweets from jancborchardt by searching google for "aaronpk site:twitter.com/jancborchardt"
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aquarius aaronpk, I totally agree that the above approach is doable -- when you first tweeted at me I thought, who's this? and viewed your twitter profile, and saw you talk to people I talk to. Which is great
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: no, i'm pretty sure you're not a spammer :)
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KartikPrabhu right. so i don't get the point
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aaronpk i could imagine any number of search engines, either services or built into my own indieweb tools, that could find these links
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aquarius aaronpk, but we've both got about 3,000 followers. Are they all honestly friends of friends?
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michielbdejong aaronpk: i think you just invented social spamming :)
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aaronpk so the point is that with a very small amount of human effort of recognizing someone (or some website) we might have in common, the tools can do the rest
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aaronpk also keep in mind that Vouch is not attempting to prevent trolling, just automated spam
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aquarius eyeballing my mentions, I'd say somewhere between a quarter and a third of people who @mention me are people I do not know and am more than one degree away from, and yet I want to see their conversation
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michielbdejong aaronpk: yes, that's important to keep in mind
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aaronpk aquarius: I wonder if we could analyze that somehow
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michielbdejong aquarius: and display it as comments, probably
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michielbdejong not just receive
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aquarius michielbdejong, absolutely
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michielbdejong so do we want to build proof-you-are-human.com as a playground-politics breaker for Vouch? is the domain free?
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aquarius example: yesterday I bitched that "1em" does not mean "the width of an m character". Two people explained that it's the *height* of an "m" character. I know neither; they both follow me; one retweeted a friend of mine recently, one didn't but talks about similar *stuff* to me... so I as a person can relatively easily tell they're OK. But that's happening after their information is published.
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@kartik_prabhu @michielbdejong Here is the graffiti you requested… http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-29#t1417298054224 (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/requested-graffiti-michielbdejong) (twitter.com/_/status/538814785819652097)
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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aquarius michielbdejong, might wanna mention webmentions in the domain
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aquarius also, I'm about to go for a drink, because it's been a long day :)
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aquarius but I have at least some of tomorrow free...
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michielbdejong KartikPrabhu: https://twitter.com/michielbdejong doesn't display anything out of the ordinary?
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aaronpk oh hey there's a suggestion of hashcash for vouches
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aaronpk where did that come from?
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: but this does: https://twitter.com/michielbdejong/status/535515201375072258
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@michielbdejong Just posted the IndieHosters story on https://news.ycombinator.com/newest (twitter.com/_/status/535515201375072258)
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aaronpk oh that was aquarius! nice!
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michielbdejong aquarius: nice to meet you! honoured to talk to the inventor of pingback
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michielbdejong humbled
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KartikPrabhu michielbdejong: my homepage also does not display any webementions!
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KartikPrabhu but my post page does
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KartikPrabhu same on twitter
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aquarius aaronpk, well -- I suggested hashcash. michielbdejong came up with the idea of a site where you hashcash to it and then it vouches for you (this is the proposed proof-you-are-human.com), which I think is pretty clever. I just wrote it on the wiki :)
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aaronpk oh here's the hashcash note I was trying to find on the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/DDOS#Hashcash
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aquarius michielbdejong, ha! I wouldn't necessarily be honoured by that invention. It was a good idea at the time, and the underlying idea is still right, but webmention is a better implementation now that we have a clearer picture of how to actually use HTTP properly :)
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michielbdejong it's good that you're still here, though
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aaronpk there's also a bunch of other ideas here http://indiewebcamp.com/spam
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michielbdejong there are few of us
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aquarius the web is the most powerful tool for knowledge and fun that's ever existed. I'm not going anywhere any time soon :)
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aquarius aaronpk, ya, I had a look at those, indeed
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michielbdejong aquarius++
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Loqi aquarius has 2 karma
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aaronpk well it's certainly an interesting problem
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aquarius I like the idea of Vouch, I just worry that it's (a) the FOAF/Semantic Web stuff in new clothes, and it didn't work the first time around, and (b) intentionally *designed* to make it difficult for new entrants to join the conversation. But I think michielbdejong's hash-for-vouches scheme is a neat hack :)
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aquarius which might cover all bases
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michielbdejong "It behooves us, the indieweb, to be pre-emptively thinking" :) http://indiewebcamp.com/spam
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aaronpk hash-for-vouches is a neat hack indeed
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aaronpk also remember that in Vouch it's not required that the vouch URLs be from individual *people*
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KartikPrabhu I am worried that "has-for-vouches" will make it more difficult for non-programmers to join the conversation
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KartikPrabhu s/has/hash
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: I am worried that "hash-for-vouches" will make it more difficult for non-programmers to join the conversation
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aaronpk they could jhust as well be business' web pages, or aggregators like hackernews or something
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aaronpk so I think that makes it a little less "clique-ish" than a pure FOAF model
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, that's a reasonable point -- I think that most will not even be aware that the hash is happening, but I agree -- and so those people can use normal Vouch, right?
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michielbdejong yeah, a CMS silo could be a voucher
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, that is: if you can't find someone to vouch for you, you have the option of using a service that will vouch for you instead.
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KartikPrabhu aquarius: then why can't programmers use normal Vouch?
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aaronpk so who's gonna be the first to implement hashcash verification on their own webmention endpoint?
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KartikPrabhu < not me> I don't know what this hash thing is anyway
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aaronpk cause the real test is whether it's faster for people to understand+add hashcash verification vs vouch verification
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michielbdejong aaronpk: you wouldn't need to as soon as hashcash-to-vouch.com exists
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aquarius KartikPrabhu, because finding someone who knows me and that you trust is potentially infinitely hard -- I can never know whether there isn't anyone or if I just haven't found them yet.
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aquarius aaronpk, I'd need my own endpoint for that :)
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aaronpk aquarius: I think you described exactly why Vouch prevents all automated spam :)
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KartikPrabhu hmm well people can implement what ever they want so...
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aaronpk "potentially infinitely hard"
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aquarius but more importantly, hash for vouches.com means you don't *need* hashcash verification on endpoints.
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aquarius everyone just does vouch
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aquarius and hashforvouch.com vouches for youy.
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michielbdejong +1
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aaronpk give it a shot!
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michielbdejong yeah, worth a try!
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aquarius aaronpk, I agree it does, but I think it's like avoiding hearing dissenting opinions by only talking to close friends :P
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michielbdejong i guess we have about one year before spammers start targetting webmention
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aaronpk certainly software like Known, and the Wordpress webmention plugin makes it a much bigger target now
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michielbdejong aaronpk: yep
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aquarius michielbdejong, so, how would it work? quck spec, before I go to the pub. I POST target=wherever&time=1234567&nonce=8760930 to hashforvouch.com/endpoint and it returns {vouch_url: "https://hashforvouch.com/abaskbfkfbcq"}, and I then use that vouch_url in my Vouch request to the iriginal site as normal?
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michielbdejong aquarius: well, ideally the CPU time would be client-side
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aquarius michielbdejong, it is client side
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aquarius calculating the nonce is the hard bit
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aquarius verifying the nonce is trivial
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aaronpk aquarius: well phrased: "hearing". Because there's nothing stopping people with dissenting opinions from posting stuff on their own site anyway. It's just the webmention and comment display part that would be stopped by the un-vouched webmention.
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michielbdejong right
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aaronpk aquarius: anyway nice chatting. hope to see you around these parts in the future as we figure this stuff out! and when you get a chance, would love to see you add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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michielbdejong aquarius: oh, and actually, one vouch would suffice for however many posts you want to write, or just one?
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aaronpk if just one, isn't that essentially the same thing as using the /irc-people page?
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aaronpk "register yourself here and then this URL can be used as a vouch URL"
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aquarius only if people are already part of the webmentions clique :)
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aquarius because the instant people start registering just *so* they can send webmentions, then it's (a) a SPOF and (b) a massive spammer target
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aaronpk isn't that what would happen with hashforvouch?
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aaronpk that only works for people who are part of the "hashforvouch clique"
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michielbdejong.com profile michielbdejong edited /IRC_People (+53) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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aaronpk cause before I'd accept that vouch URL, I would have to have known about it first
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aquarius aaronpk, no, because anyone can hit hashforvouch and hashforvouch requires that you prove yourself to have done some work.
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aquarius Yeah -- part of the long-term goal here is that if it becomes reasonably widely trusted, it gets whitelisted by default,.
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aaronpk that sounds like a SPOF then
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aaronpk and a massive spammer target
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aquarius it can't be a massive spammer target
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aquarius because in order to massively spam you have to do massive amounts of work
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aquarius I agree it's a spof
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aquarius which is why I suggested every endpoint implementing hashcash :)
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aaronpk well since right now I'm soft-failing un-vouched webmentions, maybe I could *also* implement hashcash verification and soft-fail for it too
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aaronpk then see which one people start using more
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aquarius michielbdejong, well, https://github.com/stuartlangridge/hash-for-vouch is the very basics of it, I just haven't got time to faff with databases right now :)
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michielbdejong aquarius: cool! will have a look in the EU morning
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arcatan http://www.dazeddigital.com/photography/article/22757/1/flickr-is-about-to-sell-off-your-creative-commons-photos
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arcatan Meh. I guess I should host my photos indie-style.
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arcatan Licensing-wise Flickr is of course within their rights to do so, but I don't like to have a buy button on my social media profile that does not send money to me.
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KartikPrabhu !tell kylewm just confirming that the rel-bookmark change was field tested before I merge the changes
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [mention] http://bd.summit.net/articles/2014/11/29/stuart-langridge-enabling-webmentions/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://bd.summit.net/articles/2014/11/29/stuart-langridge-enabling-webmentions/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch (pingback)
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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tantek and welcome aquarius! glad to see you here :)
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tantek is still catching up on logs
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tantek hey aquarius add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so you show up with a nice icon and link the logs indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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tantek needs to write up an FAQ about the clique/playground-politics issue, which is actually moot because we are seeding the vouch network at this very moment with all our unchecked webmentions :)
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tantek I see aaronpk has already cited /spam
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tantek hashcash to bootstrap a vouch link might be interesting, but in general I am opposed to protocols that waste energy / electricity / fuels (ethical reasons).
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tantek It's a pretty obvious place where protocol design actually has a real world impact with physical/ethical consequences.