#indiewebcamp 2015-02-21

2015-02-21 UTC
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gRegor` People's choices of avatar sizes is interesting when scrolling through Woodwind
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gRegor` Well adactio's is his favicon I guess, so it's 16 sq
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gRegor` aaronpk is 48 sq
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gRegor` I'm 150 sq
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kylewm hopefully they all show up between 48 and 64px right?
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gRegor` kylewm is 152 sq. Two-upper
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gRegor` Yeah, minimum is 48
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gRegor` s/minimum/minimum displayed/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: Yeah, minimum displayed is 48
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kylewm gRegor`: my 152 came from here https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariWebContent/ConfiguringWebApplications/ConfiguringWebApplications.html
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress_Data (-16) "/* Too Many Levels */" (view diff)
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kylewm grr need to ask acegiak to remove the byline from her h-entrys again
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gRegor` Ah, good to know
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GWG kylewm: That might be me.
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GWG kylewm: acegiak is using a modified version of the starter theme I was working on. Tell me if you have any parsing issues, I want to port them upstream.
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kylewm GWG: acegiak's h-entry p-author supersedes the much fuller h-feed p-author at the top of the page
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kylewm it's not right or wrong, but i don't get her avatar
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GWG Since the default theme doesn't have it...
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GWG Not sure if I should take out the h-entry p-author then
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GWG Just want to be aware in case there is something to fix
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GWG !tell acegiak Remove mf2_s_posted_by(); from entry-header.php
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG kylewm: There.
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GWG So, I guess tonight I write more code.
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Loqi [mention] http://colintedford.com/2015/01/04.0154-h-card-validator-doesnt-check-address/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-01-03#t1420353468262 (pingback)
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snarfed hmans: just fyi, i use tag uris as uids in a-u (and therefore bridgy, *-atom, etc)
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snarfed http://taguri.org/
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snarfed no particular reason except that i made the call a long time ago and i'm preserving them. if i was deciding now, i might well use normal URLs
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GWG snarfed: Can I pick your brain?
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snarfed GWG: yes and http://tantek.com/w/CommunicationProtocols#Dontaskifyoucanask :P
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GWG snarfed: I know. I just wasn't sure if you were busy. You commented 15 minutes ago
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snarfed np! if i'm busy i won't answer
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GWG https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress_Data#Future_Plans
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GWG I'm trying to document my plans before I implement them
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snarfed that's the beauty of irc (and email etc)
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snarfed sure
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snarfed ok, i see
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snarfed i hate to admit it, but i don't really know much about common wordpress patterns with this kind of thing…
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GWG Well, the question I'm trying to figure out is the bottom one
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snarfed ah
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GWG It's simple to store everything in cite, but...
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GWG I could use the relational values.
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snarfed honestly i don't know
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snarfed i glaze pretty fast at debating these kinds of details
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snarfed sorry
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GWG Ok
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GWG EIther way, it would make it compatible with the Micropub plugin
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snarfed great!
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GWG Although you don't support cite or card
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GWG Which I may submit for.
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snarfed are there examples of existing clients that create those?
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GWG http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#h-cite
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GWG It's in the spec.
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snarfed right, but that wasn't my question
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GWG I'm not sure. Would have to try them
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GWG I'm looking
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snarfed ok. my guess is no
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snarfed not important, just curious
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kylewm GWG: I don't think any micropub client creates h-cite yet, maybe putting the cart before the horse?
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kylewm nor h-card for that matter...
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snarfed kylewm: my thoughts too…except chicken and egg, and it also doesn't hurt to add support if it fits
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kylewm we discussed whether a last.fm PESOS client should create h-cites for artsists and albums and decided no
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GWG kylewm: I'm already outputting those though.
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GWG So, my site already uses h-cites. I just didn't call the data point that
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GWG I'm consuming them, so I may wish to publish them
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kylewm ok sorry I think I was confused by the link to /micropub#h-cite
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kylewm re-lurks
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GWG kylewm: I'm saying, if I'm consuming them, then I would want to use micropub to publish them
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GWG Which is a future use case, once I reorganize.
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snarfed GWG: kind of…but wp has good native support for publishing, right? web, mobile apps, etc
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snarfed for platforms like that, micropub is more useful for specialized use cases, e.g. ownyourgram
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GWG snarfed: I've never found one I liked, to be honest.
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snarfed ah right
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GWG But, I can always go custom post UI.
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GWG I've considered it.
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snarfed surprising, since the web and app UIs are both pretty mature, but to each their own
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GWG snarfed: They are. But not for notes.
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snarfed why not?
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GWG Too many things to set.
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kylewm checks GWG's post frequency
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GWG Think of the Twitter post UI.
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GWG IT's a box and a button
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snarfed GWG: wouldn't you leave pretty much everything default for notes? that's what i do. what do you need to set?
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snarfed no offense, just curious
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GWG Different kinds of posts need different settings.
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GWG I've been thinking on it.
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snarfed i guess
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snarfed all i do to post a note is omit the title, and it works fine
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GWG Yes. It may just be me. But I keep trying to make it easier.
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GWG snarfed: Have you ever seen the p2 theme?
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snarfed GWG: yeah!
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snarfed automattic uses it a lot internally
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GWG snarfed: I may go in that direction. Inline post editing
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GWG I still have other things to fix, I guess.
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snarfed yow. sounds ambitious
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snarfed but if it really is your top itch, go for it!
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GWG snarfed: That's why it is not my first choice.
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GWG I have other things I think I can accomplish
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snarfed prioritizing is hard, let's go shopping
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willnorris.com edited /legacy_contact (+167) "Add Google" (view diff)
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frzn hey guys, is allowed to talk about politics here? I have a doubt concerning my ignorance about other countries and I think that here is a good place to ask about it. How is the discussion of socialism/comunism in the universities and in the youths in the country of yours? Here in Brazil (and in other south american countries) is very strong, as we still fight against neoliberalism. I don't see (or, probably, can't understand) this kind of engagement in
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frzn other countries, mainly in the US,
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snarfed frzn: probably more appropriate for #indiechat or elsewhere
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frzn snarfed: nice! Didnt know about the channel. Thanks :)
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tantek.com edited /legacy_contact (+247) "expand Google entry with names of services from their announcement, sort first since they launched it nearly 2 years before FB" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /legacy_contact (+31) "/* Silo Examples */" (view diff)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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Changwoo hi
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hmans \o/
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cphyc Is their any kind of support of markdown for Known events ?
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cphyc and is their a way to update properly Known to a new version ?
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@whoshe #인디웹(Indieweb)의 길은 멀고 험난하구나... (twitter.com/_/status/569102524487110657)
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jonnybarnes.uk edited /short-domains (-28) "/* jmb.so */ change what my long domain is, and the new url structure." (view diff)
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jonnybarnes on the wiki can we change the wikipedia links? They seem to take the form https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/{page-name}
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jonnybarnes Can we not just link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/{page-name} now?
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@funnyplan Indieweb Test http://www.funnyplan.com/b/2bY http://www.funnyplan.com/indieweb-test/ (twitter.com/_/status/569130998929076226)
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@funnyplan Indieweb Test http://www.funnyplan.com/b/2bY (twitter.com/_/status/569131028960321536)
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Loqi [mention] http://forthrightpress.com/2015/02/21/resources/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/silo (webmention)
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GWG !tell acegiak I need a beta tester
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Pierre-O Hi!
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GWG Hello, Pierre-O
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Pierre-O I'm wondering, is there some kind of rules to host your OPML file on your website?
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GWG Rules?
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Pierre-O I was browsing: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/indie-reader
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Pierre-O The problem is how to "discover" on IndieWeb
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Pierre-O And I thought it could be through OPML files
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Pierre-O it's "equivalent" to the "I follow these people" on twitter
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GWG Pierre-O: It is being worked on by several people.
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GWG That sort of discovery is still developing.
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Pierre-O What is OPML?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OPML" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=OPML&summary=prompted+by+Pierre-O+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-21%2Fline%2F1424534747895
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Pierre-O Let's start :)
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GWG Well, OPML is a file storage standard. You should always start at a higher level.
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GWG You want to discover other people? What form should that take?
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Pierre-O I'm interested in discovering in the context of a group.
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GWG So, you have 5 people who are part of a group, and you want to discover things they are reading?
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Pierre-O Like: I like to follow things about sharing economy
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Pierre-O I think that group are defined by hashtags
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GWG Are you tagging them, or are they tagging themselves?
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Pierre-O so, if I follow one person that is part of that group (or share posts with that hashtag), this person probably follow other people that are part of that group (or share posts with that hashtag)
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Pierre-O and yes, you are right, the tagging could be made by other people...
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Pierre-O What is seenthis
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "seenthis" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=seenthis&summary=prompted+by+Pierre-O+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-21%2Fline%2F1424535694474
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Pierre-O http://seenthis.net/
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GWG What is tagging?
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Loqi tags or tagging refers to categorizing or labeling content, your own or others (tag-reply), with words, phrases, names, or other information, optionally linked to specific people, events, locations, such as the practice of tagging posts being about certain people (person-tag), like tagging people or other items where (area-tag) they're depicted in a photo https://indiewebcamp.com/tagging
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GWG We do have tagging pretty well defined.
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GWG But not what to do with it
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Pierre-O what is hashtag
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Loqi hashtags are the use of the hash "#" symbol followed immediately by a word/phrase/abbreviation to explicitly denote a topic inline in a post https://indiewebcamp.com/hashtag
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Pierre-O I want to share my opml file on my website, what should be a good name?
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Pierre-O After robot.txt and human.txt, follow.opml?
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GWG I like follow.opml
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Pierre-O ok, let's start with that!
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GWG I was holding off on doing that till some of the readers people are working on were more developed, like kylewm's woodwind, which is pretty nice.
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Pierre-O I believe 2015 is the year of the IndieReader :)
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Pierre-O What is discovery
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Loqi Discovery for the IndieWeb is a set of algorithms to start with a URL like a home page or post permalink, and determine information about that URL, such as authorship, page-name, and date published https://indiewebcamp.com/discovery
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GWG That's a different type of discovery.
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GWG Pierre-O: So do we. It is why I'm looking forward to the next in person Indiewebcamp
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Pierre-O where is it?
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GWG Cambridge, MA
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GWG But there are other being planned in other locations
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aaronpk What is following?
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Loqi To follow is the concept of establishing a digital relationship to another person or entity so that you can receive updates from them over a given social media channel https://indiewebcamp.com/following
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www.pierre-o.fr created /OPML (+438) "Creation" (view diff)
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GWG Good morning, aaronpk
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aaronpk What is subscribe?
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Loqi To follow is the concept of establishing a digital relationship to another person or entity so that you can receive updates from them over a given social media channel https://indiewebcamp.com/subscribe
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aaronpk Good morning!
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aaronpk OPML is just a file format, so it's not very interesting to talk about on its own
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GWG But, finding people to follow is the problem of every social channel.
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aaronpk Indeed
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GWG aaronpk: That was why I suggested focusing on the process over the file format.
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aaronpk Although I've already found new people thanks to Woodwind
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GWG It's almost at the point where that sort of functionality can be developed.
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aaronpk Because I see kylewm's replies to people and now that it shows the reply context, I see their faces too
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aaronpk So we at least have a natural process of growing your following list
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GWG But we're nowhere near.... "You like Bob, you might like Alice..." that is the sort of behavior that is nearly impossible to get right.
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aaronpk Have you ever found those useful?
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aaronpk In my experience those have only been useful when the person its suggesting is someone I already know but wasn't following yet
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GWG As I said...impossible to get right
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GWG But seeing what people I like are sharing does lead me to others
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www.pierre-o.fr created /seenthis (+663) "prompted by Pierre-O https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-21/line/1424535694474" (view diff)
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www.pierre-o.fr edited /OPML (+8) "format" (view diff)
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Pierre-O Good morning aaronpk, the problem for me is in the context of a group
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Pierre-O How to create a group without any centralised place
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Pierre-O (I read the good article about group)
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@pierreozoux Added #seenthis to IndieWebCamp wiki https://indiewebcamp.com/seenthis cc @thibnton https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/added-seenthis-to-indiewebcamp-wiki-seenthis-cc-thibnton (twitter.com/_/status/569178453750235136)
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Loqi [mention] Pierre Ozoux commented 'Added #seenthis to IndieWebCamp wiki https://indiewebcamp.com/seenthis cc @thibnton' on a post https://indiewebcamp.com/seenthis (https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/added-seenthis-to-indiewebcamp-wiki-seenthis-cc-thibnton)
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aaronpk Creating a group without a central place? That sounds like an oxymoron :-)
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aaronpk We've created a group... http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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aaronpk I guess a webring is also a kind of group
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Pierre-O yes, somehow :)
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Pierre-O I have to leave! Fighting the TTIP! Have a nice week-end! Pierre
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@Andre0Ani RT @pierreozoux: Added #seenthis to IndieWebCamp wiki https://indiewebcamp.com/seenthis cc @thibnton https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/added-seenthis-to-indiewebcamp-wiki-seenthis-cc-thibnton (twitter.com/_/status/569185156709412864)
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Loqi [bridgy] ANDRE ANI retweeted a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/seenthis (https://twitter.com/Andre0Ani/status/569185156709412864)
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@GlennF @kevinmarks MR INDIEWEB RECOMMENDS WALLED GARDENS FILM AT ELEVENSES (twitter.com/_/status/569199892624642048)
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@kevinmarks @GlennF indieweb starts with examining existing models to see how they can be made non-siloed (twitter.com/_/status/569200286209695745)
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GWG Another slow Saturday.
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kylewm.com edited /PubSubHubbub (+122) "/* Kyle Mahan */ now sending pings for the homepage h-feed as well" (view diff)
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kylewm does anyone other than Barnaby send PuSH pings for their h-feed? the other examples on /PuSH only mention atom feeds
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GWG kylewm: I don't. Haven't looked much into it.
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kylewm it is very tempting to just let superfeedr handle all this subscribing/polling/maintenance stuff for me but i really want to get my hands dirty and see if PuSH is something we can build on
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GWG What are the cons?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cons" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=cons&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-21%2Fline%2F1424546796660
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kylewm the cons are important to consider in addition to the pros in the context of choosing an indieweb project.
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loqi.me created /cons (+129) "prompted by GWG https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-21/line/1424546796660 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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kylewm race against the clock there...
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GWG What are the pros?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pros" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pros&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-21%2Fline%2F1424546969777
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GWG What are the pros and cons?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pros and cons" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pros+and+cons&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-21%2Fline%2F1424546978970
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kylewm the pros represent the advantages of a feature, protocol, or technology, typically weighted against its [[cons]] and the implementation time/cost
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kylewm the pros are the advantages of a feature, protocol, or technology, typically weighted against its [[cons]] and the implementation time/cost
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loqi.me created /pros (+162) "prompted by GWG https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-21/line/1424546969777 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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GWG kylewm: So, for PuSH, what are your considerations?
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GWG The original goal of the standard was to reduce servers polling for new content
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kylewm dumb polling is easy, 1x/hour... but it gets complicated very quickly. how often to poll based on update frequency, to even concerns like polling more during daytime hours
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kylewm and then PuSH feels like a solution but almost nobody here supports it on their h-feed
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GWG You don't think people would if there was something to consume it?
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kylewm Superfeedr offers a service where they basically manage *all* of that, and they just send you pings when a feed updates regardless of the plumbing
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kylewm "push lipstick on a polling pig," as tantek said
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kylewm GWG: I'm not sure, shrewdness consumes PuSH and that did not motivate people
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kylewm so I guess the consideration is 1. delegating to Superfeedr would give a better experience to users, vs. 2. implementing it myself would be educational
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GWG Is there any problem with the standard?
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kylewm not as far as i can tell
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GWG So, would you think the problem is that it is a tech for RSS/ATOM, which has been marginalized.
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kylewm well, it was certainly created to work with Atom/RSS first, but 0.4 works with any HTTP resource
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GWG I noticed that in the spec.
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GWG Hmm...I need to learn some javascript.
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GWG Is there a way to hide page elements without it?
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kylewm sure, display: none
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aaronpk kylewm: isn't PuSH pretty simple to support from the publisher side?
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kylewm aaronpk: very
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aaronpk I'm guessing people would have no problem implementing it if they knew the benefit it would provide
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aaronpk also the problem with PuSH from the publisher side is it's very opaque... you send a ping and have no idea how much of an effect it had or if it even worked
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aaronpk so how are people supposed to know if they've "done it right"
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kylewm agreed
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kylewm hopefully i can help with that in woodwind
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kylewm i can at least give some stats about each feed, whether it's push enabled, when it was last polled, when the last ping was received, that sort of thing
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aaronpk here's an example
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aaronpk I don't actually remember if I'm still pinging my hub right now
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aaronpk I set it up a while ago
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aaronpk It'd be great if I could do something like log in to the hub i'm using and see if it's still working
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aaronpk cause i don't even have a good way of knowing whether it's working right now
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gRegor` Does the ping return nothing?
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kylewm aaronpk: superfeedr does that
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kylewm if you login to create your own hub, e.g. kylewm.superfeedr.com
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kylewm i have an analytics page with # of pings in the last 24 hours
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aaronpk oh cool
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kylewm this is not reassuring https://code.google.com/p/pubsubhubbub/source/list
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kylewm looks like last significant change was 2011
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aaronpk is that the source of their hub?
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kylewm I think so? it says open source reference implementation
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kylewm trying to run the hub locally with google app engine's devserver, and it appears to not work the current version of the GAE SDK
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aaronpk heh
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kylewm gRegor`: to answer your question, the ping returns status code 204, with an empty body
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@sil @_Sailesh_Patel_ I haven’t because I don’t want comments, but I have webmentions (http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/). @jmayer mentioned disqus etc (twitter.com/_/status/569263953613692930)
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