2015-02-20 UTC
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# 00:42 JHSheridan How goes it, friend?
# 00:43 GWG But it's over now and I may bask in the comfort of the IRC channel
# 00:49 JHSheridan Helped a friend move all day
# 00:50 JHSheridan Now I'm bugging kylewm about RedWind
# 00:52 GWG JHSheridan: I just use kylewm in screenshots.
# 00:53 JHSheridan I'm not sure what you mean
# 00:53 GWG JHSheridan: kylewm always sends me webmentions when I'm trying to test a feature
# 00:53 GWG So when I document the feature, it's often with a profile picture of him
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# 01:41 kylewm easy to add, if you want to use it for something?
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# 01:47 acegiak kylewm: yeah I want to try and get upstream comment threading working
# 01:48 acegiak ah, right, sorry I got confused about which libraries are which
# 01:51 acegiak kylewm: not quite. if you comment on my post and then someone else comments on your comment on your site, what I want is for you to be able to send me an update webmention and then I can show that third party comment in thread on my original post
# 01:52 kylewm acegiak: oh right, I meant php-comments is similar to my mf2util library. I totally support the threaded comment thing
# 01:55 kylewm github changed its syntax highlighting theme again
# 01:57 GWG acegiak: What are you working on?
# 01:58 acegiak "if you comment on my post and then someone else comments on your comment on your site, what I want is for you to be able to send me an update webmention and then I can show that third party comment in thread on my original post"
# 01:59 kylewm acegiak, if you reply to a post that is already a reply, do you display both reply contexts now?
# 02:00 GWG It's not supported by the plugin, kylewm.
# 02:01 kylewm oh but acegiak is talking about going the other way, duh
# 02:02 acegiak kylewm: what about ifI use the word "salmonlike"?
# 02:02 kylewm ha, ok i see, you want the comments to flow upstream, that makes sense
# 02:08 acegiak kylewm: theoretically if I'm fetching from mf2 I should display nested reply contexts
# 02:09 acegiak KevinMarks: which is why I want to just do "hey I got a new comment, here's an update webmention if you want to check it out"
# 02:10 KevinMarks 'cos slamon protocol decided it was goign to be not on the web, so had to have signing complexity rather than just checking the origin for a comment
# 02:10 GWG acegiak: Anything I can do to help?
# 02:12 acegiak GWG: to solve this problem on wordpress we need to do a couple of steps: 1) make the mf2 parser library capable of returning data about comments on a h-entry
# 02:13 GWG acegiak: It doesn't parse it? Or it needs more?
# 02:13 acegiak 2) make the semantic linkbacks plugin read those comment data and create/update new comments in thread for them
# 02:13 GWG acegiak: Is it a linkbanks thing or a webmention plugin thing?
# 02:14 kylewm acegiak: GWG: aren't you just using php-mf2? It shouldn't need any changes to read comments
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# 02:15 acegiak kylewm: really? hmm. maybe I'm just not using it right then
# 02:16 GWG kylewm: I don't include it in Post Kinds, but I may have to in a future version if I want to add a button to read data.
# 02:16 kylewm this will be an interesting game of telephone, parsing and re-parsing comments, sanitizing and re-sanitizing :)
# 02:18 acegiak kylewm: yeah. every time GWG updates indieweb-post-kinds I have to remove the sanitization from the response-content field because it's definitely the safest thing for end users, it's stopping me reblogging youtube videos
# 02:20 GWG acegiak: Is there a way we can work with that?
# 02:21 acegiak GWG: I'm not allowed near anything security sensitive
# 02:22 GWG acegiak: I put the Youtube video URL in and embed it separately using the oembed code.
# 02:22 GWG I have the embed section for that.
# 02:23 acegiak GWG: I'm reblogging things where the embeded youtube video needs to be in context with the comments around it
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# 02:24 GWG I think solving some of your problems makes the plugin better
# 02:28 GWG So, you are trying to get the Youtube comments?
# 02:29 acegiak I just want to rblog what my friends are reblogging, whether that's youtube, vine, images, whatever
# 02:29 acegiak but the problem is that kses strips iframes and script tags for obvious reasons
# 02:30 GWG I could put in a variable you could set in wp-config that would override it.
# 02:30 GWG That would be the best way to do a hidden feature.
# 02:31 GWG Then you wouldn't have to edit it each time.
# 02:31 GWG But most people wouldn't be 'at risk'.
# 02:31 acegiak GWG: the other suggestion is to do what I currently do with javascript which is to display it escaped in a code box
# 02:32 acegiak and then when you doubleclick it it turns it back into the actual script
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# 02:32 GWG If you want to contribute something...if it doesn't work for the majority of people, the option I suggested works...hidden feature.
# 02:32 acegiak but that's not the thing Im most worried about atht emoment
# 02:34 GWG acegiak: The next thing on my list after the theme support thing, which is giving me trouble for some reason in testing, is rewriting the display function again. I want to try to break it into smaller pieces.
# 02:35 GWG I have trouble following the various ifs.
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# 03:06 GWG Did I miss anything? Neighbor needed to borrow a sim tool
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# 03:49 kylewm acegiak: sorry for the delay, yes i got a wm from you
# 03:55 GWG acegiak: I have something for that which may help
# 04:47 aaronpk oh *whew* I thought I was doing something horribly wrong but it was not my fault
# 04:47 aaronpk i forgot that twitter doesn't have permalinks for their likes, so bridgy just sets the tweet URL as the like URL
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# 04:50 kylewm snarfed: i'm looking at this inReplyTo thing again, do you think inReplyTo should be part of the activity or its object?
# 04:52 snarfed i think my reading of the spec was that it goes in that context field
# 04:53 snarfed we could look at g+ and even app.net comments as examples if we want
# 04:53 aaronpk question... if you're displaying a facepile of likes or reposts, do you hyperlink the face to the like URL or the author's home page?
# 04:56 snarfed aaronpk: yeah, i make up fragments in many cases when there's no permalink, but not all
# 04:57 kylewm snarfed: so the only reference i see to inReplyTo is in the comment object type
# 04:57 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I use URL for reposts and author for likes but that is because most "likes" come from silos with no "like URL"
# 04:57 kylewm "Objects of this type MAY contain an additional inReplyTo property..."
# 04:57 KartikPrabhu for indie-likes I'd always link to response URL but I should implement that
# 04:58 aaronpk the challenge i'm having is with the mf2 underlying data
# 04:58 aaronpk each icon in the facepile is actually an "h-entry p-like"
# 05:01 aaronpk yeah it's realy a question of whether I should link to the author home page or the "like" permalink
# 05:01 KartikPrabhu yeah. I think silos need to be made an exception in that case, due to "likes" not being first-class posts on most
# 05:01 aaronpk right now i can link to the author home page and have a hidden link for the like permalink so that the mf2 data is correct
# 05:01 snarfed kylewm: yeah. i may have abused context for tweets specifically because an @-reply is still arguably a note, not a comment
# 05:01 GWG aaronpk: I think the author page. Anyone who is interested in clicking through isn't interested in the like page
# 05:03 snarfed kylewm: i vote go ahead and put inReplyTo top level, not in context
# 05:03 aaronpk do you expect to be taken to their home page? (there is no way to verify the like because the post was so long ago)
# 05:03 GWG I expect to learn more about who it is
# 05:03 snarfed aaronpk: yeah, home page. or silo profile for silo likes
# 05:04 kylewm snarfed: actually I think your rationale for putting it in the context makes sense, as much or more sense than putting it in the activity. is it ok if i pull it from the context when converting to mf2?
# 05:05 snarfed kylewm: maybe! the next question is consistency across the different silos. is that maybe more important than special handling for tweets as notes?
# 05:06 kylewm on the other silos, inReplyTo is in the object.. but those really are comments
# 05:06 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah, making it work as people expect to is better. Also for likes one would expect "liked by whom" but for reposts it might be "reposted at... "
# 05:06 kylewm and it looks like G+ doesn't bother with "object" at all and just puts everything in the activity
# 05:09 aaronpk yeah interesting that "reposted at" is more interesting than "liked at"
# 05:09 kylewm i bet you meant status.net instead of app.net huh
# 05:10 aaronpk but that's subtle enough that i'm gonna treat them the same for now
# 05:12 snarfed kylewm: heh i guess. i thought ADN was based on AS too? maybe not?
# 05:12 snarfed kylewm: so you're proposing to look for inReplyTo both top level and in context?
# 05:13 kylewm right now it looks in activity["object"]["inReplyTo"], i'm proposing looking in activity["context"]["inReplyTo"] too
# 05:14 kylewm shortest distance from the current impl that gets what i want :)
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# 05:16 kylewm also, surprisingly difficult to find a spec for statusnet... moving on to gnusocial...
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# 05:20 tantek ok Loqi, let me know if I have any messages before I should go to sleep.
# 05:21 tantek I guess not, thought I saw something in the logs about my in-reply-to markup but maybe I was missing something.
# 05:51 aaronpk interesting that twitter returns a unique URL for reposts but not for likes
# 05:53 tantek not that interesting, likely side-effect of accidental implementation design
# 05:53 tantek e.g. twitter favorites were coded first, likely quickly, and sloppily / minimally
# 05:54 aaronpk hm true, that seems likely given what i know about twitter implementation history
# 05:54 tantek whereas native retweets probably had A LOT more up front design work, data modeling etc. that went into them
# 05:54 aaronpk i guess it's interesting that it matches up with the comment earlier about possibly wanting to actually see the repost permalink but not really caring to see the like permalink
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# 05:57 snarfed retweet permalinks have always seemed kind of half-assed, since they redirect to the original tweet
# 05:58 snarfed i'm sure it's an intentional design choice, but still
# 05:59 tantek snarfed - I got more of the impression of "that's the best they could do" rather than "half-assed" but perhaps I'm being too charitable.
# 06:00 snarfed half-assed is probably unfair. i kind of doubt redesigning RTs is a priority for them though
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# 15:30 GWG I'm trying to figure out WordPress data
# 15:31 GWG Snarfed went for mf2_ for his properties, I was using response[]
# 15:31 GWG I want to read his data if it is there.
# 15:32 GWG Trying to decide if I want to adopt or just convert.
# 16:04 GWG pfefferle: Either start storing my data in the mf2_ format, or just look for data in the mf2_ format and store it in my response array
# 16:05 pfefferle GWG does the second option mean, that you will store the same data twice?
# 16:06 GWG I'm writing a function that would return an array of the data. So, I wouldn't store it twice. I would just return it to the display functionality without worrying about where it came from.
# 16:07 GWG I figured, if I do change it, adding that layer would make it easier.
# 16:07 GWG Also, there are a few other good reasons to separate it into a function
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# 16:21 GWG pfefferle: That was what I was thinking. Because that moves forward WordPress_Data to a 'standard'. Which moves forward Indieweb on WordPress.
# 16:21 GWG Different meta values means it is harder.
# 16:22 GWG Right now, it is just snarfed doing mf2_ though.
# 16:22 pfefferle GWG but is mf2 or uf2 a good idea? what about ”žindie_“ or ”žindieweb_“
# 16:23 GWG One refers to microformats 2 properties. The other is referred to a series of concepts.
# 16:23 GWG I tend to lean toward mf2 as more inclusive.
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# 16:29 GWG Either way, I need to figure out the structure and think on it.
# 16:29 GWG I'm not even sure how a reply-context should be stored in these keys.
# 16:30 GWG So, it is just a matter of changing 'response' to 'mf2_cite'.
# 16:31 GWG And the field names to match the properties.
# 16:32 GWG That only means author changes to 'name'.
# 16:33 GWG Possibly also storing the URL in mf2_in_reply_to if context suggests.
# 16:34 GWG Although that is redundant much of the time.
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# 16:35 GWG I think I need to look in 3 places, create the logic around it, and ultimately store in one.
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# 18:14 GWG Things are always surprisingly fast
# 18:15 tantek GWG, well they had hoped to ship in December, ahem. ;)
# 18:17 aaronpk !tell pfefferle guten tag! what part of Germany do you live in? I'm going to be in a couple places in Germany in March and thought maybe we could host a homebrew website club!
# 18:17 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 18:18 GWG Every time someone says that I keep hoping to find someone in NYC
# 18:18 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 18:19 GWG snarfed: I have been thinking about mf2_ and I think I will be coming on board
# 18:21 GWG I hope that I don't drive users crazy with dataset changes
# 18:21 tantek figured I'd balance the criticism of RSS with adding a silo example
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# 18:29 fiatjaf does anyone know of something bad that can happen if I try to post webmentions to a github jekyll site using the github api?
# 18:34 aaronpk i've been thinking of the idea of my website as a feed reader too
# 18:35 aaronpk the more I start pulling in external content (like reply contexts, reposts, likes, and mentions) the more I think my site might be better off rendering my own posts from the same data format, h-entry
# 18:36 tantek kylewm: another alternative would be to use RSS as flat file storage
# 18:36 tantek that's just as reasonable as rendering the HTML by reading HTML
# 18:37 aaronpk or hey why not just present the RSS feed as your home page and use XSLT! ;)
# 18:37 tantek assuming you prefer storing things as RSS rather than HTML
# 18:37 tantek aaonpk - because search engines don't run XSTL
# 18:37 Loqi tantek meant to say: aaonpk - because search engines don't run XSLT
# 18:37 aaronpk but the content would be there anyway, just in XML instead of XHTML
# 18:39 tantek except … search engines do not index RSS (any more)
# 18:39 tantek pours one out for Feedster, PubSub, Technorati, etc.
# 18:39 tantek yes it got dropped. because it was far less useful than the equivalent HTML.
# 18:44 tantek if you want your content to go everywhere, including the archives, you have no choice but to send down HTML
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# 20:37 GWG tantek: Are you planning your afterlife already?
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# 20:42 tantek GWG, just creating redirects in ways people have asked the question
# 20:42 GWG tantek: I thought you would have an interesting view on it. You usually say things that get me thinking
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# 20:44 tantek hey Loqi, why you gotta drop the first non-URL word of my tweet?
# 20:44 GWG tantek: You may be gone, but tanteking will live forever
# 20:44 tantek aaronpk bug ^^^ - " of these mornings" should have been "“One of these mornings"
# 20:45 tantek apparently is *really* good at breaking things.
# 20:48 tantek "Please choose an image that is at least 400 pixels wide." FUUUUUUU FB!
# 20:56 tantek ^^^ the error message you get if you try to set an event header image that is narrower than 400px
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# 21:33 hmans In h-entry, is u-uid expected to be a URI?
# 21:34 tantek everything else is handwavy hypothetical mumbojumbo
# 21:34 hmans How do we deal with someone migrating their site from http to https -- wouldn't that break existing u-uids? (Or do they just remain at http://, and nobody cares?)
# 21:35 hmans Right... and the UID remains at its original value. Only way this works, I guess
# 21:35 hmans (I'm looking at using u-uid for deduplication when fetching remote documents after receiving a webmention)
# 21:36 tantek at some point in the future I expect a revision of the "http:" spec to switch to "try accessing the resource over https *first*, and then fallback to http"
# 21:38 aaronpk for deduplication I'd just ignore the scheme when comparing
# 21:38 hmans I guess it's not a big problem as long as the uid is considered primarily an identifier and not an actual location (even though it will be just that in most situations.)
# 21:39 aaronpk i can't remember the citation, but somewhere it's written that if your site responds to both http and https the contents of the URLs should be the same
# 21:40 hmans Yeah, I would expect most if not all people who serve both :80 and :443 to 301 from one to the other.
# 21:41 aaronpk i'm serving from both right now until I can fix all mixed-content warnings
# 21:42 tantek aaronpk - pretty sure I saw a blog post by timbl about that "should be the same"
# 21:46 GWG How would MicroPub post a like? I see syndicate like in the wiki, but not just post one
# 21:46 GWG aaronpk: I meant, what does it send? like-of?
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# 21:49 gRegor` kylewm: Nice work on reply contexts in Woodwind, especially showing tweets. I was not expecting that.
# 21:49 gRegor` How easy/difficult would it be to set up my own install of Woodwind? Is it also built on Flask?
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# 21:51 kylewm gRegor`: thanks! it is Flask, yes ... it would go up on Heroku pretty painlessly
# 21:51 gRegor` What's it use for storage?
# 21:52 gRegor` I'm on Dreamhost
# 21:52 kylewm also, I'm defering to activitystreams-unofficial for the twitter contexts
# 21:52 kylewm Postgres for storage, Redis or RabbitMQ for the task queue
# 21:52 gRegor` Ah, ok. Not easy for me to get going then.
# 21:53 kylewm you would need to run the main application in a wsgi app server, and the celery worker separate
# 21:54 gRegor` Maybe I'll pick up the indie reader started at /2014
# 21:55 gRegor` Must focus on this ProcessWire webmention plugin in the meantime.
# 21:55 gRegor` aaronpk: Yeah, I thought it could be a starting point.
# 21:55 gRegor` By the time I get around to it, maybe yours will be up and going aaronpk :) More choices!
# 21:56 gRegor` is content using reader.kylewm.com until he wants to kick me off
# 21:57 kylewm feel free to! i'm planning to keep it running as long as i can :)
# 21:57 kylewm well, until someone else's reader lures me away
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# 22:03 gRegor` GWG, why not mf2['key'] instead of mf2_cite['key'] ?
# 22:04 gRegor` Alternately, why not store the JSON and not worry about breaking out individual parameters?
# 22:04 GWG store a post's top-level microformats2 string properties in post metadata with the property names as the keys, prefixed by mf2_.
# 22:05 hmans tantek, I'm noticing that your u-uid URLs are relative -- is it assumed that consumers should build a fully qualified URI when encountering a relative u-uid?
# 22:05 GWG gRegor`: The proposal states storing using mf2_toplevelproperty. The citation is not top level.
# 22:06 tantek hmans - per microformats2 parsing spec, parsers MUST build a fully qualified URL when encountering u-* properties.
# 22:06 GWG gRegor`: Also, you can retrieve the entire post metadata in a single command.
# 22:07 GWG The only thing is technically, I should be storing the h-card inside the h-cite.
# 22:07 gRegor` steps away from WordPress
# 22:07 GWG That would be technically accurate
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# 22:18 hmans As a h-entry consumer interested in using UID for deduplication (and I may be on the wrong path?), I would expect the UID to remain the same during the lifetime of a post, even if content or URL change.
# 22:20 tantek to answer first question, don't know, haven't had to yet (since I started blogging 2002-08-08)
# 22:20 tantek (thus postponing bothering to think about / solve hypotheticals)
# 22:20 aaronpk I am going to have to make this decision very soon
# 22:20 aaronpk since I am going to change my URLs to drop the post type from them
# 22:22 tantek which is basically what I'm doing based on iso ordinal
# 22:22 ben_thatmustbeme plus as i had mentioned before, if you start doing too much data you get stuck at how to handle multiple things per second
# 22:22 tantek but including type because I like clustering by type in a day
# 22:22 hmans Am I completely off track thinking that u-url and u-uid are two completely separate entities that most of the time just happen to be equal?
# 22:22 aaronpk because I often create posts out of sequence such as when I'm importing car2go history or last.fm scrobbles
# 22:23 tantek hmans - it's not reasonable to place any burden on publishers like "UID to remain the same during the lifetime of a post, even if content or URL change" therefore you must not assume that
# 22:23 tantek u-uid is more like the canonical URL for a post, which *can* change over time
# 22:24 tantek though I could see posts keeping all past variants as "u-url" property values somewhere, and only the current canonical one as u-uid
# 22:24 tantek aaronpk, "often create posts out of sequence" is *exactly* why I type-segment the numerical index portion of the URL
# 22:25 hmans That doesn't sound like I should be using u-uid for deduplication.
# 22:25 tantek if it has the same u-uid it is the same thing
# 22:25 aaronpk tantek: but I am trying to get away from post type in URL
# 22:26 tantek aaronpk - it was the simplest solution I found for "often create posts out of sequence" (per type)
# 22:26 hmans tantek, good point. Do you see any obvious heuristics beyond u-uid?
# 22:26 aaronpk (or was I trying to get away from post type as first component of the URL)
# 22:27 tantek it also permits me to change URL policies once a year should I choose to
# 22:27 hmans tantek, the scenario I'm trying to solve is this: I receive a webmention with source=http://bob/foo. Later, Bob changes the URL of the post to http://bob/bar and sends another webmention. I want to find out if /bar is the same document as /foo.
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# 22:30 hmans What I'm building on the receiving end (Pants) is the following: if I get a new webmention from bob.com, and the target document already has existing incoming links from other documents at bob.com, I will iterate through them, HEAD them, and check for a redirect. If one or more gets redirected tp new URLs, I will combine and consolidate accordingly. (As a fallback if u-uid don't match.)
# 22:31 hmans This will break if someone ends up publishing the same thing on multiple URLs, sending webmentions for two or more, but it's a start
# 22:41 aaronpk I just realized I'm also struggling with the concept of post types
# 22:42 tantek aaronpk in the short URL form, I preferred the type first because I thought it looked nicer, and since it was going to redirect to the year-first permalink anyway I thought it was fine
# 22:42 tantek aaronpk, I did spend a lot of time in 2009 stressing over the segmentation / design of a taxonomy of post types
# 22:42 aaronpk my car2go, biking and running posts all have something in common, which is the fact they are all routes
# 22:42 aaronpk but biking and running are also exercise, along with pushups
# 22:43 tantek mostly at least to capture my immediate needs, near term needs, what I had published at all, then likely future additions
# 22:43 tantek I especially think the permashortcitations look nicer with the type char before number
# 22:44 tantek the idea there is to communicate subtly what the shortlink is before the user clicks on it
# 22:44 tantek that is, they know if they see /tNNNN that it's "just" a note - low reading commitment
# 22:45 tantek also I wanted to allow for different shortening strategies for different types
# 22:45 tantek I right now have ended up using "notes" for all three of notes, replies, RSVPs
# 22:46 tantek because in practice I have found them all to be "note-like"
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# 22:49 tantek ah - I've actually captured my use of text notes for replies and RSVPs on my post type taxonomy design page: tantek.com/w/Whistle#design - just after the list of letters
# 22:52 aaronpk right now i'm just having a debate with myself on github :P
# 22:53 tantek yeah seems like he switched CMSs to boxpub and broke everything
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# 23:05 tantek messaged him via gchat auto-offline-failover-to-gmail
# 23:06 tantek for those that don't know the name, he was heavily involved in the DiSo effort that predated IndieWeb(Camp) and had many similar principles/values/goals
# 23:07 tantek (besides the usual own your data reasons to put it on a blog post on my domain instead of a wikipage on pbworks)
# 23:08 aaronpk probably yeah, although I'd also like to see more explanation of your design decisions of your full permalinks, not just short
# 23:12 hmans KevinMarks, but that may change over time, too, considering it has SEO use
# 23:12 KevinMarks hence this handy script javascript:var c = document.querySelector("link[rel=canonical]"); if(c){ history.replaceState({},document.title, c.href); }
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# 23:28 kylewm hmm, nothing on archive.org for that monkinetic url either
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