#indiewebcamp 2015-02-20

2015-02-20 UTC
mdik_, mdik, carlo_au, daf, KartikPrabhu, JHSheridan, snarfed and tantek joined the channel
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GWG
Evening
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JHSheridan
Evening
gRegor` joined the channel
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GWG
Hello, JHSheridan
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JHSheridan
How goes it, friend?
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GWG
Another long non-Indieweb day
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GWG
But it's over now and I may bask in the comfort of the IRC channel
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JHSheridan
haha
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GWG
You?
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JHSheridan
Helped a friend move all day
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JHSheridan
Now I'm bugging kylewm about RedWind
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GWG
JHSheridan: I just use kylewm in screenshots.
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JHSheridan
I'm not sure what you mean
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GWG
JHSheridan: kylewm always sends me webmentions when I'm trying to test a feature
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GWG
So when I document the feature, it's often with a profile picture of him
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JHSheridan
haha
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Mark87
Hello
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GWG
Hello, Mark87
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Mark87
😊
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kylewm
mf2util doesn't parse comments
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kylewm
(yet?)
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kylewm
easy to add, if you want to use it for something?
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acegiak
kylewm: yeah I want to try and get upstream comment threading working
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kylewm
you're not using python though are you?
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kylewm
you know mf2util is python right?
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acegiak
ah, right, sorry I got confused about which libraries are which
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acegiak
kylewm: not quite. if you comment on my post and then someone else comments on your comment on your site, what I want is for you to be able to send me an update webmention and then I can show that third party comment in thread on my original post
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kylewm
acegiak: oh right, I meant php-comments is similar to my mf2util library. I totally support the threaded comment thing
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kylewm
github changed its syntax highlighting theme again
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GWG
acegiak: What are you working on?
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acegiak
GWG: trying to get upstream comments working
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acegiak
but it's a lot of work it seems
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GWG
Upstream?
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acegiak
"if you comment on my post and then someone else comments on your comment on your site, what I want is for you to be able to send me an update webmention and then I can show that third party comment in thread on my original post"
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kylewm
acegiak, if you reply to a post that is already a reply, do you display both reply contexts now?
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GWG
It's not supported by the plugin, kylewm.
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kylewm
oh but acegiak is talking about going the other way, duh
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kylewm
i would call those downstream :)
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acegiak
kylewm: what about ifI use the word "salmonlike"?
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kylewm
ha, ok i see, you want the comments to flow upstream, that makes sense
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KevinMarks
except http://www.salmon-protocol.org/ is ridiculously coplex
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acegiak
kylewm: theoretically if I'm fetching from mf2 I should display nested reply contexts
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acegiak
KevinMarks: which is why I want to just do "hey I got a new comment, here's an update webmention if you want to check it out"
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KevinMarks
'cos slamon protocol decided it was goign to be not on the web, so had to have signing complexity rather than just checking the origin for a comment
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KevinMarks
acegiak++
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Loqi
acegiak has 13 karma
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GWG
acegiak: Anything I can do to help?
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acegiak
GWG: to solve this problem on wordpress we need to do a couple of steps: 1) make the mf2 parser library capable of returning data about comments on a h-entry
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GWG
acegiak: It doesn't parse it? Or it needs more?
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acegiak
2) make the semantic linkbacks plugin read those comment data and create/update new comments in thread for them
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acegiak
GWG: ctrl-f "comment" returns 0 results
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KevinMarks
Irony: http://www.salmon-protocol.org/news/salmonspecificationpublished says "You do not have permission to add comments."
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GWG
acegiak: Is it a linkbanks thing or a webmention plugin thing?
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GWG
I always have trouble with that
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kylewm
acegiak: GWG: aren't you just using php-mf2? It shouldn't need any changes to read comments
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acegiak
kylewm: really? hmm. maybe I'm just not using it right then
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GWG
kylewm: I don't include it in Post Kinds, but I may have to in a future version if I want to add a button to read data.
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kylewm
this will be an interesting game of telephone, parsing and re-parsing comments, sanitizing and re-sanitizing :)
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acegiak
kylewm: yeah. every time GWG updates indieweb-post-kinds I have to remove the sanitization from the response-content field because it's definitely the safest thing for end users, it's stopping me reblogging youtube videos
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GWG
acegiak: Is there a way we can work with that?
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acegiak
GWG: I'm not allowed near anything security sensitive
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GWG
acegiak: I put the Youtube video URL in and embed it separately using the oembed code.
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GWG
I have the embed section for that.
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acegiak
GWG: I'm reblogging things where the embeded youtube video needs to be in context with the comments around it
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GWG
acegiak: Got example?
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GWG
Let me think on the issue.
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GWG
I think solving some of your problems makes the plugin better
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GWG
So, you are trying to get the Youtube comments?
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GWG
May be confused then
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GWG
But it happens
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acegiak
I just want to rblog what my friends are reblogging, whether that's youtube, vine, images, whatever
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acegiak
but the problem is that kses strips iframes and script tags for obvious reasons
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GWG
I could put in a variable you could set in wp-config that would override it.
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GWG
That would be the best way to do a hidden feature.
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GWG
Then you wouldn't have to edit it each time.
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GWG
But most people wouldn't be 'at risk'.
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acegiak
GWG: the other suggestion is to do what I currently do with javascript which is to display it escaped in a code box
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acegiak
and then when you doubleclick it it turns it back into the actual script
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GWG
If you want to contribute something...if it doesn't work for the majority of people, the option I suggested works...hidden feature.
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acegiak
yeah, def
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acegiak
but that's not the thing Im most worried about atht emoment
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GWG
acegiak: The next thing on my list after the theme support thing, which is giving me trouble for some reason in testing, is rewriting the display function again. I want to try to break it into smaller pieces.
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GWG
I have trouble following the various ifs.
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GWG
Also there is the dreaded thing
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GWG
Did I miss anything? Neighbor needed to borrow a sim tool
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kylewm
acegiak: sorry for the delay, yes i got a wm from you
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acegiak
apparently im not marking up the comments hmm
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GWG
acegiak: I have something for that which may help
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aaronpk
oh *whew* I thought I was doing something horribly wrong but it was not my fault
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aaronpk
i forgot that twitter doesn't have permalinks for their likes, so bridgy just sets the tweet URL as the like URL
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kylewm
snarfed: i'm looking at this inReplyTo thing again, do you think inReplyTo should be part of the activity or its object?
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snarfed
i think my reading of the spec was that it goes in that context field
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aaronpk
oh crap
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snarfed
but i don't feel strongly
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kylewm
ohh, I'm not seeing the context field
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snarfed
we could look at g+ and even app.net comments as examples if we want
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aaronpk
question... if you're displaying a facepile of likes or reposts, do you hyperlink the face to the like URL or the author's home page?
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GWG
I think the home page
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GWG
Not sure if others would agree.
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snarfed
kylewm: yeah. finding a fragment
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aaronpk
this is an ugly hack :(
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snarfed
aaronpk: yeah, i make up fragments in many cases when there's no permalink, but not all
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aaronpk
so the icon for the facepile should be an h-card
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kylewm
snarfed: so the only reference i see to inReplyTo is in the comment object type
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: I use URL for reposts and author for likes but that is because most "likes" come from silos with no "like URL"
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kylewm
"Objects of this type MAY contain an additional inReplyTo property..."
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: that seems reasonable
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KartikPrabhu
for indie-likes I'd always link to response URL but I should implement that
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aaronpk
the challenge i'm having is with the mf2 underlying data
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aaronpk
each icon in the facepile is actually an "h-entry p-like"
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aaronpk
which has an author
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aaronpk
oh wait i see the problem...
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aaronpk
yeah it's realy a question of whether I should link to the author home page or the "like" permalink
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KartikPrabhu
yeah. I think silos need to be made an exception in that case, due to "likes" not being first-class posts on most
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aaronpk
right now i can link to the author home page and have a hidden link for the like permalink so that the mf2 data is correct
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snarfed
kylewm: yeah. i may have abused context for tweets specifically because an @-reply is still arguably a note, not a comment
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GWG
aaronpk: I think the author page. Anyone who is interested in clicking through isn't interested in the like page
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aaronpk
okay quick poll: if you see the icons of 5 people who liked the post and you click one, what do you want to see? http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/caseorganic-20150219-210212.png
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snarfed
kylewm: i vote go ahead and put inReplyTo top level, not in context
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aaronpk
do you expect to be taken to their home page? (there is no way to verify the like because the post was so long ago)
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GWG
I expect to learn more about who it is
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snarfed
aaronpk: yeah, home page. or silo profile for silo likes
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aaronpk
okay ... i think that makes my life easier then
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kylewm
snarfed: actually I think your rationale for putting it in the context makes sense, as much or more sense than putting it in the activity. is it ok if i pull it from the context when converting to mf2?
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snarfed
kylewm: maybe! the next question is consistency across the different silos. is that maybe more important than special handling for tweets as notes?
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snarfed
i dunno
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kylewm
on the other silos, inReplyTo is in the object.. but those really are comments
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yeah, making it work as people expect to is better. Also for likes one would expect "liked by whom" but for reposts it might be "reposted at... "
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kylewm
and it looks like G+ doesn't bother with "object" at all and just puts everything in the activity
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kylewm
G+ itself, not your proxy of G+...
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snarfed
kylewm: g+ comments?
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kylewm
going to look at the ADN schema
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snarfed
looks like g+ comments have a small object field (and top-level inReplyTo, natch): https://developers.google.com/+/api/latest/comments#resource
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aaronpk
yeah interesting that "reposted at" is more interesting than "liked at"
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kylewm
i bet you meant status.net instead of app.net huh
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aaronpk
but that's subtle enough that i'm gonna treat them the same for now
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snarfed
kylewm: heh i guess. i thought ADN was based on AS too? maybe not?
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snarfed
kylewm: so you're proposing to look for inReplyTo both top level and in context?
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snarfed
whee yeah
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kylewm
right now it looks in activity["object"]["inReplyTo"], i'm proposing looking in activity["context"]["inReplyTo"] too
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kylewm
shortest distance from the current impl that gets what i want :)
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snarfed
kylewm: thanks. sgtm!
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kylewm
also, surprisingly difficult to find a spec for statusnet... moving on to gnusocial...
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snarfed
oh wow really? above and beyond
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kylewm
well i'm curious :p
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tantek
ok Loqi, let me know if I have any messages before I should go to sleep.
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Loqi
who, me?
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tantek
I guess not, thought I saw something in the logs about my in-reply-to markup but maybe I was missing something.
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aaronpk
interesting that twitter returns a unique URL for reposts but not for likes
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tantek
not that interesting, likely side-effect of accidental implementation design
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tantek
e.g. twitter favorites were coded first, likely quickly, and sloppily / minimally
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aaronpk
hm true, that seems likely given what i know about twitter implementation history
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tantek
whereas native retweets probably had A LOT more up front design work, data modeling etc. that went into them
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aaronpk
i guess it's interesting that it matches up with the comment earlier about possibly wanting to actually see the repost permalink but not really caring to see the like permalink
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snarfed
retweet permalinks have always seemed kind of half-assed, since they redirect to the original tweet
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snarfed
i'm sure it's an intentional design choice, but still
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tantek
snarfed - I got more of the impression of "that's the best they could do" rather than "half-assed" but perhaps I'm being too charitable.
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tantek
best they could do *so far*
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snarfed
tantek: eh, the descriptions seem similar to me
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snarfed
half-assed is probably unfair. i kind of doubt redesigning RTs is a priority for them though
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@achorism
IndieWeb 네이버 카페 연동 http://achor.net/board/diary/1593 IndieWeb의 일환으로,이번엔 네이버 카페와의 연동을 ...
(twitter.com/_/status/568655335277383680)
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pfefferle
good morning
sanduhrs, dariusdunlap_, KartikPrabhu, LauraJ, friedcell, caseorganic, cweiske, michielbdejong, eschnou, petermolnar, Sebastien-L, stream7, thehighfiveghost, nothingrandom, interactivist, davemenninger and squeakytoy2 joined the channel
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@albertoslopez
RT @kevinmarks: Hey @leolaporte, if you're redesigning TWiT website, we should chat about incorporating indieweb friendly markup - h-entry,…
(twitter.com/_/status/568757732431384576)
scor, modem, e-lima, friedcell, thehighfiveghost, nothingrandom, danlyke, pfefferle, jgarber, LauraJ, davemenninger and Aeyoun joined the channel
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GWG
Good morning
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pfefferle
good morning GWG
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GWG
pfefferle: I need some advice.
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GWG
I'm trying to figure out WordPress data
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GWG
Snarfed went for mf2_ for his properties, I was using response[]
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GWG
I want to read his data if it is there.
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GWG
Trying to decide if I want to adopt or just convert.
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pfefferle
GWG converting yours?
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GWG
pfefferle: Either start storing my data in the mf2_ format, or just look for data in the mf2_ format and store it in my response array
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pfefferle
GWG does the second option mean, that you will store the same data twice?
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GWG
I'm writing a function that would return an array of the data. So, I wouldn't store it twice. I would just return it to the display functionality without worrying about where it came from.
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GWG
I figured, if I do change it, adding that layer would make it easier.
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GWG
Also, there are a few other good reasons to separate it into a function
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pfefferle
GWG hmmm
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pfefferle
GWG a unified version would be best I think...
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GWG
pfefferle: That was what I was thinking. Because that moves forward WordPress_Data to a 'standard'. Which moves forward Indieweb on WordPress.
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GWG
Different meta values means it is harder.
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GWG
Right now, it is just snarfed doing mf2_ though.
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pfefferle
GWG but is mf2 or uf2 a good idea? what about ”žindie_“ or ”žindieweb_“
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GWG
One refers to microformats 2 properties. The other is referred to a series of concepts.
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@dariusdunlap
@benwerd love to have you out. Also, I’m thinking of hosting a small tech gathering. Maybe something indiewebcamp -ish.
(twitter.com/_/status/568808072694472704)
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GWG
I tend to lean toward mf2 as more inclusive.
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GWG
Either way, I need to figure out the structure and think on it.
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GWG
I'm not even sure how a reply-context should be stored in these keys.
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pfefferle
GWG how do you save them actually?
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GWG
So, it is just a matter of changing 'response' to 'mf2_cite'.
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GWG
And the field names to match the properties.
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GWG
That only means author changes to 'name'.
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GWG
So, three changes in storage
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GWG
Possibly also storing the URL in mf2_in_reply_to if context suggests.
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GWG
Although that is redundant much of the time.
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GWG
I think I need to look in 3 places, create the logic around it, and ultimately store in one.
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GWG
Needs more thought, I suppose.
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@raretrack
Yay got my @withknown #KnownPro account today. Was incredibly easy to map it to my custom domain. #Known #IndieWeb
(twitter.com/_/status/568830796380770304)
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@benwerd
RT @raretrack: Yay got my @withknown #KnownPro account today. Was incredibly easy to map it to my custom domain. #Known #IndieWeb
(twitter.com/_/status/568830849887502336)
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tantek.com
created /plumbing (+2363) "stub with dfn, analogy, examples"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /plumbing (-5) "-etc"
(view diff)
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tantek
whoa Known pro is shipping?
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tantek
What is Known Pro?
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Loqi
Known is an open publishing / community platform project https://indiewebcamp.com/Known_pro
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GWG
Things are always surprisingly fast
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tantek
GWG, well they had hoped to ship in December, ahem. ;)
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GWG
I missed that.
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GWG
Time flies
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@MarkMorvant
RT @raretrack: Yay got my @withknown #KnownPro account today. Was incredibly easy to map it to my custom domain. #Known #IndieWeb
(twitter.com/_/status/568836622164172800)
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aaronpk
!tell pfefferle guten tag! what part of Germany do you live in? I'm going to be in a couple places in Germany in March and thought maybe we could host a homebrew website club!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
Every time someone says that I keep hoping to find someone in NYC
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snarfed
!tell pfefferle just to conclude from the other day: a hook to customize Micropub::authorize() sounds like a great idea! i'll follow up in https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/5
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
snarfed: I have been thinking about mf2_ and I think I will be coming on board
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GWG
Been reading the micropub spec
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GWG
And may file some issues
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snarfed
GWG: great!
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tantek.com
edited /RSS (+248) "Silo Examples, Flickr"
(view diff)
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GWG
I hope that I don't drive users crazy with dataset changes
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tantek
figured I'd balance the criticism of RSS with adding a silo example
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tantek.com
edited /RSS (-1) "simplify see also, note plumbing"
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snarfed.org
edited /Micropub (+480) "/* Clients */ ownyourresponses"
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fiatjaf
does anyone know of something bad that can happen if I try to post webmentions to a github jekyll site using the github api?
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kylewm
re: sidefile antipattern, I assume that doesn't apply if your rss feed *is* the source of user visible data http://scripting.com/2015/02/18/whyScriptingNewsIsAnInterestingSite.html
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aaronpk
i've been thinking of the idea of my website as a feed reader too
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tantek
kylewm: that's certainly harder to break!
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tantek
(without noticing)
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aaronpk
the more I start pulling in external content (like reply contexts, reposts, likes, and mentions) the more I think my site might be better off rendering my own posts from the same data format, h-entry
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tantek
except here's the problem -
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tantek
If you can't curl it, it's not on the web.
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tantek
kylewm: another alternative would be to use RSS as flat file storage
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aaronpk
rendering the HTML by reading the RSS storage?
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tantek
right
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tantek
that's just as reasonable as rendering the HTML by reading HTML
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aaronpk
or hey why not just present the RSS feed as your home page and use XSLT! ;)
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tantek
assuming you prefer storing things as RSS rather than HTML
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tantek
aaonpk - because search engines don't run XSTL
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tantek
s/XSTL/XSLT
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: aaonpk - because search engines don't run XSLT
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aaronpk
but the content would be there anyway, just in XML instead of XHTML
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tantek
except … search engines do not index RSS (any more)
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tantek
pours one out for Feedster, PubSub, Technorati, etc.
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aaronpk
did that just get compltely dropped?
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tantek
yeah that was so mid 2000s
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aaronpk
oh well so much for that idea
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tantek
yes it got dropped. because it was far less useful than the equivalent HTML.
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tantek
kylewm - note that the content on that very link / post http://scripting.com/2015/02/18/whyScriptingNewsIsAnInterestingSite.html IS in the HTML - and thus it is curlable / indexable. That very page is *not* simply JS pulling in RSS.
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kylewm
I did notice that
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kylewm
surprising
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tantek
if you want your content to go everywhere, including the archives, you have no choice but to send down HTML
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GWG
tantek: Are you planning your afterlife already?
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tantek.com
edited /legacy_contact (+232) "== Sessions == CyborgCamp discussion on Networked Mortality"
(view diff)
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tantek
GWG, just creating redirects in ways people have asked the question
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GWG
tantek: I thought you would have an interesting view on it. You usually say things that get me thinking
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loqi.me
created /cyborgcamp (+186) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by aaronpk"
(view diff)
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@t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqxbSggZ-vI&feature=youtu.be of these mornings you will look for me and I’ll be gone Trackish Tuesday 0600 @CalAcademy (ttk.me t4_h7)
(twitter.com/_/status/567593025677697024)
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tantek
hey Loqi, why you gotta drop the first non-URL word of my tweet?
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GWG
tantek: You may be gone, but tanteking will live forever
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aaronpk
whoa weird
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tantek
aaronpk bug ^^^ - " of these mornings" should have been "“One of these mornings"
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aaronpk
i don't even...
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tantek
apparently is *really* good at breaking things.
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@t
Life is short. Appreciate it. Smile. Be kind. Breathe. Be impatient. Actions over talk. Be patient with the kind ones. (ttk.me t4_X1)
(twitter.com/_/status/563433773480415232)
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aaronpk
you and your damn newlines
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kylewm
Hello, Newline
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tantek
# Seinfeld
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tantek
"Please choose an image that is at least 400 pixels wide." FUUUUUUU FB!
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tantek
^^^ the error message you get if you try to set an event header image that is narrower than 400px
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KevinMarks
gillmor gang time, unexpectedly
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hmans
Ahoy Indieweb
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hmans
In h-entry, is u-uid expected to be a URI?
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tantek
URLs are the only useful u-uids
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tantek
everything else is handwavy hypothetical mumbojumbo
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tantek
technical description ^^^
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hmans
How do we deal with someone migrating their site from http to https -- wouldn't that break existing u-uids? (Or do they just remain at http://, and nobody cares?)
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tantek
redirects
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hmans
Right... and the UID remains at its original value. Only way this works, I guess
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hmans
(I'm looking at using u-uid for deduplication when fetching remote documents after receiving a webmention)
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tantek
at some point in the future I expect a revision of the "http:" spec to switch to "try accessing the resource over https *first*, and then fallback to http"
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aaronpk
for deduplication I'd just ignore the scheme when comparing
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hmans
I guess it's not a big problem as long as the uid is considered primarily an identifier and not an actual location (even though it will be just that in most situations.)
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hmans
aaronpk, right
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aaronpk
i can't remember the citation, but somewhere it's written that if your site responds to both http and https the contents of the URLs should be the same
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hmans
Yeah, I would expect most if not all people who serve both :80 and :443 to 301 from one to the other.
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hmans
I sound like a robot.
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aaronpk
i'm serving from both right now until I can fix all mixed-content warnings
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hmans
SSL will kill me.
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tantek
aaronpk - pretty sure I saw a blog post by timbl about that "should be the same"
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aaronpk
that's what i was thinking of
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GWG
How would MicroPub post a like? I see syndicate like in the wiki, but not just post one
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aaronpk
Quill does it
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GWG
aaronpk: I meant, what does it send? like-of?
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gRegor`
kylewm: Nice work on reply contexts in Woodwind, especially showing tweets. I was not expecting that.
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gRegor`
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 124 karma
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gRegor`
How easy/difficult would it be to set up my own install of Woodwind? Is it also built on Flask?
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kylewm
gRegor`: thanks! it is Flask, yes ... it would go up on Heroku pretty painlessly
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gRegor`
What's it use for storage?
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gRegor`
I'm on Dreamhost
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kylewm
also, I'm defering to activitystreams-unofficial for the twitter contexts
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kylewm
Postgres for storage, Redis or RabbitMQ for the task queue
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kylewm
snarfed++ for actiivtystreams-unofficial!
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Loqi
snarfed has 89 karma
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gRegor`
Ah, ok. Not easy for me to get going then.
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kylewm
you would need to run the main application in a wsgi app server, and the celery worker separate
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kylewm
aw :)
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gRegor`
Maybe I'll pick up the indie reader started at /2014
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aaronpk
it was a good start. not very full featured tho
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gRegor`
Must focus on this ProcessWire webmention plugin in the meantime.
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gRegor`
aaronpk: Yeah, I thought it could be a starting point.
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@BI_bestpractice
@ReginaHolliday #thx Regina! Inspiring creativity,inspiring the patient story. #ownyourdata #ownyourstory #mhealth the beautifuldata of you
(twitter.com/_/status/568891720030490624)
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gRegor`
By the time I get around to it, maybe yours will be up and going aaronpk :) More choices!
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gRegor`
is content using reader.kylewm.com until he wants to kick me off
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kylewm
feel free to! i'm planning to keep it running as long as i can :)
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kylewm
well, until someone else's reader lures me away
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GWG
Trying to plan my update
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@ReginaHolliday
RT @BI_bestpractice: @ReginaHolliday #thx Regina! Inspiring creativity,inspiring the patient story. #ownyourdata #ownyourstory #mhealth the…
(twitter.com/_/status/568893582796414976)
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gRegor`
GWG, why not mf2['key'] instead of mf2_cite['key'] ?
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GWG
I was following the notes...
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gRegor`
Alternately, why not store the JSON and not worry about breaking out individual parameters?
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GWG
store a post's top-level microformats2 string properties in post metadata with the property names as the keys, prefixed by mf2_.
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hmans
tantek, I'm noticing that your u-uid URLs are relative -- is it assumed that consumers should build a fully qualified URI when encountering a relative u-uid?
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GWG
gRegor`: The proposal states storing using mf2_toplevelproperty. The citation is not top level.
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tantek
hmans - per microformats2 parsing spec, parsers MUST build a fully qualified URL when encountering u-* properties.
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hmans
tantek, noted, thanks.
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GWG
gRegor`: Also, you can retrieve the entire post metadata in a single command.
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gRegor`
Hm.
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GWG
The only thing is technically, I should be storing the h-card inside the h-cite.
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gRegor`
steps away from WordPress
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GWG
So, mf2_cite['card']['name']
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GWG
That would be technically accurate
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david.shanske.com
edited /WordPress_Data (-80) "/* Future Plans */"
(view diff)
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@mybravetweet
RT BI_bestpractice: ReginaHolliday #thx Regina! Inspiring creativity,inspiring the patient story. #ownyourdata #ownyourstory #mhealth the b…
(twitter.com/_/status/568895388142452736)
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hmans
tantek, taking http://tantek.com/2015/048/t2/design-touches-after-run-voice-congrats as an example, let's say you wanted to change the URL to something else -- would you also change the UID accordingly?
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hmans
As a h-entry consumer interested in using UID for deduplication (and I may be on the wrong path?), I would expect the UID to remain the same during the lifetime of a post, even if content or URL change.
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tantek
to answer first question, don't know, haven't had to yet (since I started blogging 2002-08-08)
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tantek
(thus postponing bothering to think about / solve hypotheticals)
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aaronpk
I am going to have to make this decision very soon
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aaronpk
since I am going to change my URLs to drop the post type from them
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tantek
aaronpk - single linear postid?
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aaronpk
i still want the date in it
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tantek
datetimebased postid?
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aaronpk
i'm leaning towards /YYYY/mm/dd/HHMMSS for everything
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tantek
so long
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aaronpk
i know :(
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aaronpk
but then the URLs get out of order quick
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tantek
which is basically what I'm doing based on iso ordinal
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ben_thatmustbeme
plus as i had mentioned before, if you start doing too much data you get stuck at how to handle multiple things per second
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tantek
but including type because I like clustering by type in a day
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hmans
Am I completely off track thinking that u-url and u-uid are two completely separate entities that most of the time just happen to be equal?
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tantek
where type is just one char anyway
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aaronpk
because I often create posts out of sequence such as when I'm importing car2go history or last.fm scrobbles
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tantek
hmans - it's not reasonable to place any burden on publishers like "UID to remain the same during the lifetime of a post, even if content or URL change" therefore you must not assume that
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tantek
u-uid is more like the canonical URL for a post, which *can* change over time
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tantek
though I could see posts keeping all past variants as "u-url" property values somewhere, and only the current canonical one as u-uid
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tantek
aaronpk, "often create posts out of sequence" is *exactly* why I type-segment the numerical index portion of the URL
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hmans
That doesn't sound like I should be using u-uid for deduplication.
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tantek
hmans - artificial absolutism
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tantek
you may use u-uid for a first step
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tantek
but not "absolute"
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tantek
if it has the same u-uid it is the same thing
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tantek
else - (add more heuristics here)
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aaronpk
tantek: but I am trying to get away from post type in URL
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tantek
aaronpk - it was the simplest solution I found for "often create posts out of sequence" (per type)
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hmans
tantek, good point. Do you see any obvious heuristics beyond u-uid?
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tantek
hmans, yes, what is deduplication?
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aaronpk
(or was I trying to get away from post type as first component of the URL)
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Loqi
Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site https://indiewebcamp.com/deduplication
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tantek
aaronpk that
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tantek
is why I ended up with YYYY/DDD/tn
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tantek
it also permits me to change URL policies once a year should I choose to
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hmans
tantek, the scenario I'm trying to solve is this: I receive a webmention with source=http://bob/foo. Later, Bob changes the URL of the post to http://bob/bar and sends another webmention. I want to find out if /bar is the same document as /foo.
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tantek
deduplication goes beyond that
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tantek
including deduping POSSE copies
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hmans
What I'm building on the receiving end (Pants) is the following: if I get a new webmention from bob.com, and the target document already has existing incoming links from other documents at bob.com, I will iterate through them, HEAD them, and check for a redirect. If one or more gets redirected tp new URLs, I will combine and consolidate accordingly. (As a fallback if u-uid don't match.)
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hmans
This will break if someone ends up publishing the same thing on multiple URLs, sending webmentions for two or more, but it's a start
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aaronpk
that seems reasonable
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aaronpk
tantek: okay took some notes here https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/86
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aaronpk
I just realized I'm also struggling with the concept of post types
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aaronpk
I currently have a lot of things as "metrics"
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tantek
aaronpk in the short URL form, I preferred the type first because I thought it looked nicer, and since it was going to redirect to the year-first permalink anyway I thought it was fine
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tantek
aaronpk, I did spend a lot of time in 2009 stressing over the segmentation / design of a taxonomy of post types
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aaronpk
my car2go, biking and running posts all have something in common, which is the fact they are all routes
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aaronpk
but biking and running are also exercise, along with pushups
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tantek
mostly at least to capture my immediate needs, near term needs, what I had published at all, then likely future additions
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aaronpk
hm good point on the short URLs
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tantek
I especially think the permashortcitations look nicer with the type char before number
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tantek
but that's a personal preference
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tantek
the idea there is to communicate subtly what the shortlink is before the user clicks on it
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tantek
that is, they know if they see /tNNNN that it's "just" a note - low reading commitment
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tantek
whereas /b/NNN means it's a blog post etc.
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tantek
also I wanted to allow for different shortening strategies for different types
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tantek
potentially based on frequency of posts etc.
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tantek
re: your car/bike/run posts
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tantek
I right now have ended up using "notes" for all three of notes, replies, RSVPs
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tantek
because in practice I have found them all to be "note-like"
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aaronpk
this is turning into a blog post
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tantek
ah - I've actually captured my use of text notes for replies and RSVPs on my post type taxonomy design page: tantek.com/w/Whistle#design - just after the list of letters
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tantek
aaronpk, the prose before my taxonomy is essentially written like a blog post: http://tantek.com/w/Whistle#whyonelettercontenttypecodes
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aaronpk
right now i'm just having a debate with myself on github :P
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aaronpk
aw "internal server error" on monkinetic.com
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tantek
yeah seems like he switched CMSs to boxpub and broke everything
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tantek
home page "ARCHIVES" link 404s :(
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tantek
messaged him via gchat auto-offline-failover-to-gmail
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tantek
Steve Ivy that is, AKA monkinetic
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tantek
for those that don't know the name, he was heavily involved in the DiSo effort that predated IndieWeb(Camp) and had many similar principles/values/goals
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tantek
aaronpk - do you think I should write this up http://tantek.com/w/Whistle#whyonelettercontenttypecodes as an actual blog post?
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tantek
(besides the usual own your data reasons to put it on a blog post on my domain instead of a wikipage on pbworks)
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aaronpk
probably yeah, although I'd also like to see more explanation of your design decisions of your full permalinks, not just short
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tantek
some of that is briefly documented in this http://tantek.com/w/Whistle#simpleexample
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KevinMarks
hmans: the other heuristic is to use rel-canonical
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hmans
KevinMarks, but that may change over time, too, considering it has SEO use
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KevinMarks
the SEO use is to avoid penalisation for duplicates
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KevinMarks
hence this handy script javascript:var c = document.querySelector("link[rel=canonical]"); if(c){ history.replaceState({},document.title, c.href); }
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aaronpk
i've been using that a lot on amazon URLs
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KevinMarks
strips the &utm-* cruft too
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kylewm
hmm, nothing on archive.org for that monkinetic url either
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