#indiewebcamp 2015-02-27

2015-02-27 UTC
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tantek that just leaves i u y
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aaronpk benweird
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aaronpk spiderpig is on a roll! https://github.com/esripdx/spiderpig
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Loqi slack/vanderwal: spiderpig looks good! Wished I had it before I moved form TypePad to Squarespace for one blog
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aaronpk i haven't actually tested restoring the site yet, but that might be a project for tomorrow
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aaronpk it looks like it's doing what it's supposed to tho
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Loqi slack/vanderwal: I'm finding I needed a link and image checker
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vanderwal I’m wanting an HTML archive of my vanderwal.net blog
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aaronpk you can do that with SPIDERPIG
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aaronpk i think i should change the name of it to be all caps always
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millette aaronpk, just curious, did you give wget a try?
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aaronpk hahahaha
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-26/line/1424977617942
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aaronpk wget never does what i want it to
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millette hmm
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millette I had to parse an "ajax" website to archive it to cd-rom (those were the days) - I used wget + a tiny proxy to convert ajax stuff, turned out quite well.
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millette tiny ^custom^ proxy
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rascul aaronpk maybe see httrack
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GWG Another week over
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: experimenting with medium's new PESOS features
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GWG Time to code.
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: if you select text they will post to twitter with a link and an image with that text highlighted
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: <https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/571106109320253440>
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rascul GWG i've been saying that for weeks
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rascul beer has been winning
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GWG Hmmm... Official Twitter plugin for WordPress.
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GWG rascul: Last night, dust bunnies for me.
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rascul one of these days i should upgrade my sister's known stuff
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rascul maybe i'll take a break from "coding" this weekend to do it ;)
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GWG Good luck
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KevinMarks_ also you can PESATAS/POSSE in a post of your own from outside
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rascul what is pesatas?
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Loqi PESETAS is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish Elsewhere, Syndicate Everything To A Silo https://indiewebcamp.com/PESATAS
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GWG It's the name of my new Mexican restaurant
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rascul i love mexican food
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rascul tacos and burritos and taco bell and hot sauce
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GWG I've never been in a Taco Bell
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rascul you're not missing much
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millette there's almost meat in there!
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@johncappiello I wonder if somehow #indieweb embraced identity it would help end run around addressibility silos #RampUp15 (twitter.com/_/status/571111190450937856)
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rascul i'm missing how indieweb doesn't embrace identity, and i'm not understanding the "addressibility silos" part
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@kevinmarks @johncappiello what do you mean by "#indieweb embraced identity" ? Have you seen http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth ? it was in evidence at #IIW (twitter.com/_/status/571111731209969664)
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@johncappiello @kevinmarks not sure. Just pontificating. I've got indieauth working. Two groups of people facing some overlapping challenges. (twitter.com/_/status/571112001671335936)
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@aaronpk @johncappiello @kevinmarks Still not sure what you mean "embrace". #IndieWeb is all about identity. (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/02/26/3/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/571112798119337984)
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@johncappiello @aaronpk @kevinmarks off the cuff attempt to rephrase. Adtech dislike the silos as much as #indieweb. Can they work together? I know... (twitter.com/_/status/571113513172668419)
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@kevinmarks @johncappiello @aaronpk the http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE idea applies to companies as much as individuals. (twitter.com/_/status/571113963930259456)
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Loqi [bridgy] Aaron Parecki replied '@johncappiello @kevinmarks Still not sure what you mean embrace. #IndieWeb is all about identity. (aaron.pk/r4_s3)' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth (https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/571112798119337984)
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Loqi [bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@johncappiello @aaronpk the indiewebcamp.com/POSSE idea applies to companies as much as individuals.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/571113963930259456)
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Loqi [bridgy] John Cappiello replied '@kevinmarks have to solve that as I blog and set it up here: aseriesofideas.com will find you in irc and maybe you can help me. #jcap' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth (https://twitter.com/johncappiello/status/571113944699379713)
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Loqi [mention] Pierre Ozoux posted 'I (re)discovered caliopen! 2 min read A while ago, I heard a...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/silo (https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/i-rediscovered-caliopen)
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Loqi [bridgy] John Cappiello replied '@aaronpk @kevinmarks off the cuff attempt to rephrase. Adtech dislike the silos as much as #indieweb. Can they work together? I know...' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth (https://twitter.com/johncappiello/status/571113513172668419)
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Loqi [mention] Pierre Ozoux posted 'I (re)discovered caliopen! 2 min read A while ago, I heard a...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/indiereader (https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/i-rediscovered-caliopen)
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KevinMarks hm http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faseriesofideas.com%2F why are twitter fetches failing
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Loqi [bridgy] John Cappiello favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/571113963930259456)
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Loqi [bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@johncappiello where do you have it working? indiewebify.me/validate-rel-m… says not and johncappiello.com redirects to LinkedIN' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/571113632693555201)
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KevinMarks loqi is loquacious
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Loqi who, me?
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snarfed1 KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 86 karma
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tantek weird tweets there
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distresssignal.org edited /IRC_People (+59) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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@bookprescom How to Use Facebook Video Cards for Business >> http://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/?p=78280&utm_content=buffer57ed5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Christian Karasiewicz. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/571157795707465729)
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Loqi [mention] Eric Woodward posted 'Developing the Web 2 min read The great @rem wrote a piece a...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://eric.wonderdome.us/2015/developing-the-web)
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tantek oh neat - a Known site: http://eric.wonderdome.us/2015/developing-the-web
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tantek I love that I can recognize Known sites by the "Filter content v" drop down
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aaronpk and the little "(K)" at the bottom too ;)
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kylewm aaronpk: did you see anywhere in the push spec that says the hub might re-send verification requests for a topic that has already been subscribed?
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kylewm could have sworn i saw that somewhere but i'm not seeing it now
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aaronpk know but I think I know what you're thinking of
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aaronpk and now i can't find that either
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kylewm josephsmarr.com/2010/03/01/implementing-pubsubhubbub-subscriber-support-a-step-by-step-guide/##hubs+may+periodically+re-verify
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kylewm ah, i get it, that's referring to 0.3 https://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com/git/pubsubhubbub-core-0.3.html#autorefresh
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aaronpk bah
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kylewm it sounds like 0.4 puts the onus on subscribers to renew their subscriptions
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aaronpk yes, after the number of seconds specified
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kylewm so your writeup looks good to me, i don't have anything to add or change
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kylewm do you want to remove or summarize barnaby and my notes from the /PuSH page and put a link to the new page?
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kylewm that josephsmarr writeup is exceptionally good btw, it describes a painless upgrade path from polling to subscribing
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aaronpk sweet
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@aaronpk @kmikeym @quicklywilliam @atduskgreg @SlackHQ I tried to make an easier signup flow for #indiewebcamp by giving... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/02/26/10/indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/571173936496377856)
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aaronpk tantek: I would be curious to get your feedback on the PuSH writeup I did earlier https://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_publish_and_consume_PubSubHubbub
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aaronpk I'm curious if it is more understandable than what you've read so far, and if it seems more achievable
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tantek will try to take a look this weekend
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aaronpk cool thanks
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tantek yeah I gave up on the previous version
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aaronpk I'm trying to do for PuSH what I did for OAuth 2.0 with this post http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/07/29/1/oauth2-simplified
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ben_thatmustbeme So pubsubhubbub is (long to type on a phone and) public only right?
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ben_thatmustbeme You can't really do private messaging
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aaronpk I don't think PuSH specifies anything about access control of the content
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aaronpk so yes you could
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ben_thatmustbeme But I would likely need to write my own hub
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aaronpk at a really high level all PuSH does is tell you that a URL is updated
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tantek which is good
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tantek not too different than webmention
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aaronpk if that URL happens to have an auth token in the query string then you can use existing hubs
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ben_thatmustbeme Hmmm okay.
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tantek aaronpk - is that subject to mitm attacks via the hub?
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aaronpk otherwise yeah you might need to write your own hub, but i'm pretty sure it would stil count as PuSH
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aaronpk probably yeah
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aaronpk from what I gathered reading up on this, nobody got very far with authenticated content
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aaronpk but they tried to leave the option open
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ben_thatmustbeme Well I've been interested in private messaging for a while. But really need proper push notifications of webmentions
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tantek so that piece is unproven
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tantek well, private content is a hard problem
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tantek in a distributed sphere
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ben_thatmustbeme Neeeed sleep
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ben_thatmustbeme Goodnight all
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Loqi ciao
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: From the discussion I remember, PuSH for private content would notify the hub that an update had happened, but the subscribers would need a decryption key supplied out of band
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: So you don't need to trust the hub (or chain of hubs, as that was in the thought process) with keys
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: There was discussion of authenticity back upstream to get the pings, but that turned into Salmon iirc
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: s/authenticity/authentication/
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aaronpk kevinmarks: yeah that'd work if the hubs always get pinged on new content, but the hubs wouldn't be able to see the private content so they couldn't fall back to polling or anything
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aaronpk it should work though
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tantek private messaging shouldn't expose publicly that messages are even happening
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aaronpk correct
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aaronpk since the publisher gets to choose which hub they send pings to, you can think of it as the publisher having a trusted relationship with the hub
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aaronpk so there's nothing "public" about that
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tantek there's no such thing as generic trust
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tantek that's the flaw
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tantek you can't reason by saying
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tantek you trust the hub to deliver
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tantek thus you trust the hub to keep private
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tantek everything is a different capability
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aaronpk no that's the brilliance of this
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aaronpk the hub doesn't need to know the contents of the message, just that there is one
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aaronpk i.e. if I'm using PuSH to notify you of private messages, I don't have to allow arbitrary hubs to support the notification
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tantek my point is it shouldn't even know that
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aaronpk but you can be your own hub
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tantek and that a direct peer to peer setup is better
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tantek can be is insufficient
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aaronpk frankly there isn't a lot of advantage of PuSH for private messages since direct notification is easier
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aaronpk the whole point of PuSH is to offload the burden of notifying a large number of subscribers of new content
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tantek exactly
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aaronpk if you only have to tell a half dozen people about new content (assume small group messaging) then you might as well do it yourself
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tantek but what about a post to a private group of 700 people? (actualy personal use case)
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aaronpk and PuSH without the hub is basically webmention
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tantek ah that's different sorry
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tantek that's just a *single* private post destination
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tantek and then that destination has to do its own ACL
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tantek posting to a private/closed/secret group that is
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aaronpk yeah I think private groups are different. the main difference being where the ACL happens (in the group vs in your client)
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aaronpk e.g. a group iMessage conversation cannot have people added to it
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@kevinmarks @bmann @chrismessina that's why databases suck. Self hosting is fine. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/571201073811042304)
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aaronpk whoa first occurrence i've seen in the wild of a Known database connection error http://bmann.ca/2015/where-is-the-frontier
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@dickelippe @beckenhaub ich habe mich für den afternoon with shopify angemeldet, nicht fürs indiewebcamp. Reise also spätestens Sonntag an... (twitter.com/_/status/571202388784254976)
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@t #IndieWeb: Homebrew Website Club 2015-02-25 Summary: http://tantek.com/2015/057/b2/indieweb-homebrew-website-club-summary (twitter.com/_/status/571203107566125056)
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tantek there, better to post that summary on my own site than just on IG as description for the photo
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aaronpk tonight I have found myself adding tags to my "like" posts
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tantek that sounds like bookmarking
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tantek in the delicious sense
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aaronpk it does
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aaronpk except I first just "liked" a bunch of posts, and later went back and added tags
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aaronpk I didn't expect to add the tag when I first posted the "like"
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tantek then later went back and added tags should be separate (new) bookmark posts with tags
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tantek rather than updating the like
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aaronpk I might even argue this is a good example of why explicit post types are not super useful
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aaronpk especially since I display the full contents of my likes, so they kinda look more like reposts
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Loqi [bridgy] Erin Jo Richey replied '@chrismessina @kevinmarks @benwerd @bmann I use a mix of flat file platforms and stuff with databases for my own stuff.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/erinjo/status/571205399858139136)
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Loqi [bridgy] Ben Werdmüller replied '@chrismessina Looong answer to this. Self hosting should be as easy as installing an app. It isn't right now. @kevinmarks @erinjo' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/571203996972490752)
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Loqi [bridgy] Ben Werdmüller replied '@chrismessina I'm not anti-db, clearly. But @bmann is right: shouldn't have to sysadmin. We have a service. Sandstorm etc have promise.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/571204965852581889)
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@uskudarli RT @t: #IndieWeb: Homebrew Website Club 2015-02-25 Summary: http://tantek.com/2015/057/b2/indieweb-homebrew-website-club-summary (twitter.com/_/status/571207974716383232)
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@EdgarsLabRat [moz] Tantek Çelik: #IndieWeb: Homebrew Website Club 2015-02-25 Summary http://tantek.com/2015/057/b2/indieweb-homebrew-website-club-summary?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/571208828278087680)
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@planetmozilla Tantek Çelik: #IndieWeb: Homebrew Website Club 2015-02-25 Summary http://tantek.com/2015/057/b2/indieweb-homebrew-website-club-summary (twitter.com/_/status/571212418493390848)
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atomicules.co.uk edited /IRC_People (+102) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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atomicules.co.uk edited /IRC_People (-2) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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atomicules.co.uk edited /Jekyll (+59) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /PubSubHubbub (+128) "/* Added pubsubhubbub plugin */" (view diff)
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@channyun #indieweb 커뮤니티 두번째 모임이 내일 오후 5시에 열립니다. 당일 같은 장소에서 워드프레스 미트업도 열리는데요. 관심 있는 분들 꼭 오세요! https://www.facebook.com/events/747180078729089 (twitter.com/_/status/571234784594128896)
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notizblog.org edited /PubSubHubbub (+198) "/* David Shanske */" (view diff)
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@arowon RT @channyun: #indieweb 커뮤니티 두번째 모임이 내일 오후 5시에 열립니다. 당일 같은 장소에서 워드프레스 미트업도 열리는데요. 관심 있는 분들 꼭 오세요! https://www.facebook.com/events/747180078729089 (twitter.com/_/status/571236071058485248)
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notizblog.org edited /PubSubHubbub (+1) "/* How to PuSH from WordPress */" (view diff)
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@mozilla_dp #IndieWeb: Homebrew Website Club 2015-02-25 Summary #mozilla http://dragplus.com/notfound?&utm_source=site&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=go&utm_term=notfound (twitter.com/_/status/571249135778709504)
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@PlanetFeeds Tantek Çelik: #IndieWeb: Homebrew Website Club 2015-02-25 Summary: At last night's Homebrew Website Club w... http://tantek.com/2015/057/b2/indieweb-homebrew-website-club-summary?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/571261539212079104)
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acegiak aaronpk: i agree that explicit post types are problematic but they solve a lot more than they break. BUT it sounds like you're tryinh
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acegiak g to do multikind posting
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acegiak which is totally my biggest use case
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acegiak or feature need or whatever
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GWG Good morning
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GWG pfefferle: I didn't know you wrote a PuSH plugin.
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pfefferle GWG I didn’t initially, but I contribute since 2011 and added the v0.4 stuff and a lot more
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pfefferle GWG good morning ;)
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GWG pfefferle: If I understand what kylewm was telling me, 0.4 would be the version a lot of stuff useful for Indieweb came in for.
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pfefferle GWG yes it adds the hub infos to the header instead of <link />s and it supports all kinds of data
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GWG Perhaps I will switch plugins then.
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pfefferle pfefferle but the pubsubhubbub plugin is only a pub… it doesn’t implement the hub, which PuSHPress seems to do…
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GWG I'm not sure someone is going to do a new hub part
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GWG pfefferle: By the way, I answered your question.
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GWG pfefferle: Re the whitelist, what are you thinking?
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pfefferle GWG you are right about the fokus, but I am not sure if it is correct at the semantic linkbacks either…
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GWG pfefferle: What about a compromise then?
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pfefferle GWG what compromise?
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/commit/89155980a9e2221d573c6b09607a44ff687e7a2b#diff-046d4632e7cce0b44f8c9a9a94458de6R176
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GWG What if we left the function and the filter, but took out the whitelist function?
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GWG That could be a separate plugin
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pfefferle what about adding all this tweaking to the indieweb plugin?
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pfefferle the filter is a good idea!
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GWG pfefferle: The Indieweb plugin?
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pfefferle GWG why not implementing all the tweaking stuff like the whitelist or this https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/pull/41 directly to the indieweb plugin?
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GWG You mean that it should handle the optional settings?
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GWG And the 'plumbing' should remain separate?
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GWG That is an interesting idea.
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GWG pfefferle: Either way, I will split the two pieces and resubmit just the filter. And move the whitelist elsewhere.
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GWG I'm fine with that.
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pfefferle GWG cool
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GWG pfefferle: Do you think features belong in the Indieweb plugin?
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gRegor` As a non-WordPress user, I think it confuses things for "The Indieweb Plugin" to be a helper plugin to install other plugins (as I understand it is now), but then add actual indieweb functionality to it as well.
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@MGullatta When a director says "data flow and management isn't something I deal with." #ownyourdata #datawork http://t.co/z5MSQaEvpW (twitter.com/_/status/571324983017934848)
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gRegor` As a helper plugin I think it's cool, though, especially if it's an easy click or two to install the individual plugins
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pfefferle GWG but otherwise we have a lot of single plugins for very small use cases, which also confuses a lot.
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pfefferle s/GWG/GWG gRegor`
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Loqi pfefferle meant to say: GWG gRegor` but otherwise we have a lot of single plugins for very small use cases, which also confuses a lot.
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gRegor` Agreed. How many plugins are listed in the indieweb plugin currently?
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pfefferle 11 and these are only the basic ones
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gRegor` Anecdotally, when I suggested a friend install the plugin and linked to the wiki page, she didn't install The Indieweb Plugin, just the Webmention plugin directly.
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gRegor` And the link to Semantic Linkbacks sent her to Github, which mentioned schema.org and she was intimidated because she thought it involved more difficult changes in WP
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GWG I could always collaborate with pwcc for a "Webmention Security Extras" plugin.
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GWG gRegor`: I'm waiting for pfefferle to push the fix for that to the WordPress repo. I rewrote the readme.
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gRegor` That's cool. Though I think more needs to happen than just the readme. There's two separate paths to getting indieweb set up on WP. Somehow (I'm not sure), it should be made more clear "to achieve x, y, z, install these plugins"
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GWG gRegor`: We've had a lot of trouble with that.
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pfefferle GWG that would be nice, I will add the needed filters/actions! (WordPress security extras)
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acegiak are there no plugins that implement a decent system for other plugins to register dependencies?
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marcthiele.com edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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marcthiele.com edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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GWG acegiak: Not exactly.
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GWG pfefferle: Updated pull request.
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acegiak GWG: also did you see aaronpk was /basically/ trying to do multikind posts?
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GWG acegiak: I saw your comment on it. I need to read up to see more.
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acegiak *just pointing out that it's not just me*
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acegiak :P
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GWG acegiak: I put in the foundation for implementing it
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acegiak GWG: I saw
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GWG acegiak: I have to figure out the rest. It's basically a plugin within a plugin.
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marcthiele.com edited /2015/Germany (+63) "/* Sponsors */" (view diff)
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acegiak :/
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GWG I figured when I rewrote the display again...
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acegiak I feel like any code that supports multikinds inherently supports single kinds
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GWG acegiak: Yes. It is the support functions that would behave differently.
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acegiak ah ok
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GWG I could code for that. Return either a string with one kind, or an array with many.
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acegiak I would always return an array that is sometimes only 1 large
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marcthiele.com edited /2015/Germany (+58) "/* Sponsors */" (view diff)
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acegiak BUT I am specifically trying to avoid putting my fingers too deep into this one
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acegiak cause I have my fingers in too many pies already
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GWG acegiak: I may try to tempt you. I have my fingers in too many things as well
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acegiak :P
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GWG I need to give pfefferle a rest.
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acegiak I'm currently trying to avoid the allure of fiddling with tinytinyrss to make it prettier
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acegiak s/rss/irc/
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Loqi acegiak meant to say: I'm currently trying to avoid the allure of fiddling with tinytinyirc to make it prettier
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GWG acegiak: Good luck.
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jcap KevinMarks, aaronpk thanks for suffering my random tweets
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jcap still not sure what I'm driving at (wrt to identity from last night)
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jcap but just some things coming to mind while at a conference
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pdurbin interesting chatter about federation about half an hour into http://twit.tv/show/this-week-in-google/272
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thawr test
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kylewm GWG: I got a ping from your pushpress hub!
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GWG kylewm: Whee!!
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GWG I need to post more, I know
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aaronpk hey wordpress people using the micropub plugin... any ideas on this? https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/9
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snarfed aaronpk: looking now
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snarfed i convert published to post_date, not post_date_gmt…i assumed they were interchangeable except for time zone
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snarfed looking at docs
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snarfed the docs seem to imply they are
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snarfed and when i tested, passing the published param worked
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snarfed is it not for you?
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snarfed hmm, this says i do need to set both, even though they're redundant. http://wordpress.stackexchange.com/a/128561
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GWG snarfed: New version of syndication links, by the way
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aaronpk thanks snarfed!
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aaronpk yes check out the date of amber's latest photo http://caseorganic.com/2015/02/reflection-from-big-pink-gallery-sizefull-columns1/
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aaronpk I wonder if themes might use one date or the other
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aaronpk so you may not see the wrong date in certain themes?
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@andkjaer How to Use Facebook Video Cards for Business >> http://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/?p=78280&utm_content=buffer35ce7&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Christian Karasiewicz. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/571358134113058817)
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GWG I'm suddenly thinking about date updated for hcards.
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kylewm aaronpk: I got a 404 for amber's style.css
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kylewm http://caseorganic.com/wp-content/themes/mercury/style.css?ver=4.1.1
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@fdevillamil Definitely adopted a self hosted Laverna as my #indieweb, encrypted notebook and task manager https://laverna.cc (twitter.com/_/status/571367293667704832)
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aaronpk kylewm: that link works for me
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@MyCozyCloud RT @fdevillamil: Definitely adopted a self hosted Laverna as my #indieweb, encrypted notebook and task manager https://laverna.cc (twitter.com/_/status/571368338909208576)
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@Andre0Ani RT @fdevillamil: Definitely adopted a self hosted Laverna as my #indieweb, encrypted notebook and task manager https://laverna.cc (twitter.com/_/status/571368669000929282)
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kylewm aaronpk: are you admining or is she?
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aaronpk it's on my server right now but she's admining now
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kylewm i get a 404 in my browser and curl from my VPS
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aaronpk old dns?
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aaronpk oh weird now it's 404 for me too
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aaronpk i swear it was working a minute ago
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jonnybarnes I get 404 too
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aaronpk huh I have no idea
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tantek me neither
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aaronpk my general stance on wordpress is to stay as far away as possible, while not imposing wordpress alternatives on people who want to use it
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tantek same with Drupal
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aaronpk haha i would actually actively discourage people from using drupal
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tantek aaronpk, whitehouse gov uses it, what could possibly go wrong?
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@olberger RT @fdevillamil: Definitely adopted a self hosted Laverna as my #indieweb, encrypted notebook and task manager https://laverna.cc (twitter.com/_/status/571370839708446721)
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tantek GWG, for date updated for hcards you may use dt-updated. microformats vocabulary terms are global
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GWG tantek: I know, but is anyone doing it?
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tantek GWG, not AFAIK
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GWG I'm just thinking about how I would know if someone has changed their photo
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@Alex131089 RT @fdevillamil: Definitely adopted a self hosted Laverna as my #indieweb, encrypted notebook and task manager https://laverna.cc (twitter.com/_/status/571377641086963712)
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@kartik_prabhu @ngrilly It is mostly to simply my site’s code. I don’t want to maintain all these sidefiles. http://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile (twitter.com/_/status/571379820178882560)
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tantek assuming KartikPrabhu meant s/simply/simplify
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KartikPrabhu tantek err yes :P
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tantek is confirming before quoting
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you ready for this?
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tantek ;)
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KartikPrabhu ruhroh
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KartikPrabhu if this blows up I might have to write an actual explanation
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tantek quoted: https://twitter.com/t/status/571382221673603073
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@t “dropped my RSS […] to simplify my site’s code. I don’t want to maintain all these sidefiles.” — @kartik_prabhu (ttk.me t4_t1) (twitter.com/_/status/571382221673603073)
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KartikPrabhu oh gee ... here we go
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's good to blog about simplifying your site to be easier to maintain
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tantek less maintenance is absolutely key to the successful scaling of the indieweb
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KartikPrabhu yes. I should do that if I find any free time
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tantek yes it's ok to make it low priority
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thawr I'll get you Loqi
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thawr :)
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tantek.com edited /sidefile-antipattern (+15) "note FOAF is also a sidefile, ht: benwerd for reminding me" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is admining?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "admining" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=admining&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-27%2Fline%2F1425063404794
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: is that ad-mining or admin-ing?
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ben_thatmustbeme had considered setting up a service that acts as your foaf file but builds it from mf2 on each request, maybe i'll get around to it
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gRegor` Hah. I read it as the former. Guessing kylewm aaronpk meant it as the latter.
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: curious what you use that consumes foaf…?
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KartikPrabhu does any use this foaf thingie for something?
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snarfed jinx :P
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gRegor` The latter didn't even register
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aaronpk ad-mining lol
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gRegor` What is admin
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Loqi admin in the context of the indieweb refers to the act of and UI for signing-into, installing, configuring, updating, backing up a personal site and anything else that has nothing do with creating or reading the posts themselves https://indiewebcamp.com/admin
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gRegor` what is admining
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "admining" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=admining&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-27%2Fline%2F1425063545751
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gRegor` admining is /admin
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loqi.me created /admining (+18) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-27/line/1425063404794 and dfn added by gRegor`" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: Adminning surely?
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gRegor` What is adminning
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "adminning" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=adminning&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-27%2Fline%2F1425063588918
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: Or administrating
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gRegor` adminning is /admin
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loqi.me created /adminning (+18) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-27/line/1425063588918 and dfn added by gRegor`" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gRegor` :P
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed, nothing. I was told some of the foaf guys had working decentralized chat
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KartikPrabhu administering kevinmarks
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ben_thatmustbeme and wanted to dig in to how it worked
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gRegor` Administrativation
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: Admonishing
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: start with asking them to a permalink to a chat archive and to a specific chat statement.
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Loqi [bridgy] ts waterman replied '@t oy vey' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile (https://twitter.com/tswaterman/status/571384453882183680)
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tantek I have found that one of the best ways to frustrate Linked Data fans is to ask them for *actual* *(perma)LINKS* to their visible *DATA*.
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Loqi [bridgy] Tantek Çelik replied '“dropped my RSS […] to simplify my site’s code. I don’t want to maintain all these sidefiles.” — @kartik_prabhu (ttk.me t4_t1)' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile (https://twitter.com/t/status/571382221673603073)
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thawr oh, excellent, somone in slack, i can play with the output of that
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: Ah, foaf <http://joi.ito.com/weblog/2003/07/21/technorati-talk.html>
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gRegor` Haha at this reply to tantek's tweet: https://twitter.com/tswaterman/status/571384453882183680
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@tswaterman @t oy vey (twitter.com/_/status/571384453882183680)
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KartikPrabhu it has begun
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@jeremyozog RT @fdevillamil: Definitely adopted a self hosted Laverna as my #indieweb, encrypted notebook and task manager https://laverna.cc (twitter.com/_/status/571385168860213248)
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aaronpk might have to turn off the internet today
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aaronpk last night was distracting enough
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's fine. Just wanted to amplify your message of (implied) focus on efficiency, for yourself now and future self.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I ma not really bothered. If a debate does pick up, gives me a reason to write said post
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: Loaf was more fun than foaf <https://web.archive.org/web/20040612083424/http://loaf.cantbedone.org/about.htm> also, like vouch :bread:
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tantek KartikPrabhu: precisely. and any dialog helps other question whether they need all the cruft their systems have accreted.
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tantek s/other/others
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Loqi tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: precisely. and any dialog helps others question whether they need all the cruft their systems have accreted.
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KartikPrabhu true
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tantek indieweb succeeds by making it *less work* to setup and maintain a website
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tantek your time is far more important than anyone's legacy plumbing
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@sr_rolando @junaimnetz @danielschoeberl Und Webmention ist der korrekte Ansatz, darauf zu reagieren. http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/571386323606605824)
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, lets see if this works...
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ben_thatmustbeme thawr is misbehaving
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kylewm.com edited /thawr (+1) "add a period to try and get p-summary" (view diff)
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Loqi [bridgy] KyleWm replied '@t @kartik_prabhu wow, that […] is quite an elision' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile (https://twitter.com/kylewm2/status/571386813522116608)
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ben_thatmustbeme thawr: test
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GWG Tell me about thawr?
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ben_thatmustbeme yay, now i can finally see if the slack bit is working
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Loqi giggles
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ben_thatmustbeme just need to wait for slack/kevinmarks to talk
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, basically just trying to build my own client for IRC, bridge the two rooms cleaner, plus it would be my own personal interface. ideally i'd like to roll in other services like AIM, XMPP
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Web based?
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ben_thatmustbeme have it all in one place so that everything below just becomes plumbing
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ben_thatmustbeme yes. I'm doing it in node right now
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ben_thatmustbeme it was surprisingly easy to get something up and running from there
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thawr quick and dirty irc client is quite easy
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GWG I'm curious to see it when it is done. I'm always looking for something to replace what I have
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ben_thatmustbeme it will be some time thats for sure
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I show no signs of going anywhere.
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KartikPrabhu there I dissed Atom too: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/571391016286212096
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@kartik_prabhu @kylewm2 but it is true in spirit. I’d get rid of Atom too if these reader things could just read HTML. cc: @t (twitter.com/_/status/571391016286212096)
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nicolaischwarz.de edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+227) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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kylewm shots fired KartikPrabhu!
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KartikPrabhu pew pew
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@ClementBethuys RT @fdevillamil: Definitely adopted a self hosted Laverna as my #indieweb, encrypted notebook and task manager https://laverna.cc (twitter.com/_/status/571394389156749312)
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@clochix IndieAuth permet aussi de s'authentifier avec sa clé PGP https://indieauth.com/gpg (détails http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp ) Peu pratique mais sympa (twitter.com/_/status/571394580547018752)
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Loqi [bridgy] Tantek Çelik replied '@kylewm2 hence I replied to the source for context. The brackets […] indicate removal from a quote. More:... tantek.com/t4_t2' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile (https://twitter.com/t/status/571394350543818752)
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Loqi [bridgy] KyleWm replied '@kartik_prabhu @t there’s a big difference between going from 2 to 1 and going from 1 to 0 though!' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/sidefile (https://twitter.com/kylewm2/status/571394758746116096)
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loqi.me created /disemvoweling (+243) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: hm, maybe mentioning slack/kevinmarks should map to <@U03QSRDJ9> in here
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KevinMarks lol
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KevinMarks that was @kevinmarks on the other side of the bridge
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tantek kylewm: my goal is to get PuSH 0.4 working before the social web wg f2f
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tantek publishing from my site
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tantek will that mean that your reader gets and shows posts in real time?
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tantek e.g. in the client browser? (via websockets?)
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aaronpk i noticed a console message about subscribing!
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aaronpk haven't actually had it open long enough to notice if things come in in realtime
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aaronpk kylewm++ for the PuSH debugging stuff in reader.kylewm.com
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Loqi kylewm has 128 karma
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Loqi slack/vanderwal: does this mean trolls are under the bridge?
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GWG Why is it I suddenly do not show up as a Facebook user of Bridgy?
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GWG Did I miss something?
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KevinMarks facebook changed their api
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GWG Yes.
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GWG Aware
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GWG Was there a request to reregister I missed?
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tantek GWG, just another brick in the wall[ed garden].
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GWG tantek: I saw the conversation publish is shut down. But this is backfeed.
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tantek ouch that's much worse
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GWG I thought backfeed still worked
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GWG Guess I did have to
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aaronpk huh I don't understand how to get superfeedr to recognize my feed
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aaronpk let me try a different one...
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benthatmust i've given up on doing the push things for now, until others get it worked out
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benthatmust one of the fun things of this group
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aaronpk :)
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benthatmust get what I find most interesting working and let others play with things I don't want to deal with yet
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Loqi slack/ben_thatmustbeme: now to see if this works at hiding the fact that anything came off of slackbot
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Loqi slack/ben_thatmustbeme: slack*
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Loqi slack/ben_thatmustbeme: nope
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Loqi slack/ben_thatmustbeme: now i'm in the room in 3 places... awkward
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ben_thatmustbeme haha success!
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thawr yay
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Loqi woot
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: only 3?
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KevinMarks that's not many
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/thawr.png
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ben_thatmustbeme customizing my view of room
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KevinMarks_ I'm in at least four
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, well, I would have been, then i started using Quassel
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ben_thatmustbeme what i think will be really fun will be dumping Loqi's twitter reads in favor of pulling in the actual tweet in a small preview
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ben_thatmustbeme actually look like tweets in line
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aaronpk okay well i think i'm notifying superfeedr of new post
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aaronpk s
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aaronpk but I can't really tell
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aaronpk woodwind hasn't said that it's sent a subscription request, even though it has discovered my hub
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aaronpk so superfeedr doesn't show any feeds or subscriptions in the dashboard
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aaronpk we definitely need more visible tooling around this PuSH stuff if it's going to work
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry for all the join/parts
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kylewm aaronpk: this is your main h-feed that you are pushing?
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aaronpk yes, and also http://aaronparecki.com/likes
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aaronpk it looks like woodwind hasn't subscribed yet
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aaronpk "PuSH verified: False"
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kylewm hmm, yeah
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aaronpk i can't tell if it tried and failed, or just didn't try yet
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kylewm tried and failed
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aaronpk that would be good feedback to provide
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aaronpk it's possible I tried subscribing before I had sent a ping to superfeedr
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kylewm aaronpk: https://gist.github.com/kylewm/cdc789f411c47a902831
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kylewm it will try to subscribe again on every update
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aaronpk hmm
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aaronpk every update of the feed in settings?
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kylewm that might be because you don't have Link headers
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aaronpk oh!
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kylewm every time you click update in the settings, or every hour
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aaronpk yup, superfeedr docs say to use link headers
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aaronpk ah...
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aaronpk "In the absence of HTTP [RFC2616] Link headers, subscribers MAY fall back to other methods to discover the hub(s)..."
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aaronpk so it's a "may" in the spec
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kylewm i'd assumed superfeedr would be ok with the fallback, but apparently not
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aaronpk okay... i will jump through the hoops to add link headers
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kylewm that's kind of a drag for github.io pages
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kylewm and shared hosting, and wherever else you can't set link headers
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aaronpk yup. maybe we can ask julien to support <link> tags
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kylewm he's been unreasonably responsive and helpful on everything iasked so far :)
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@aaronpk @julien51 I was trying to publish using Superfeedr but took me a while to realize it doesn't... #push #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/02/27/1/indieweb-push (twitter.com/_/status/571415304435212288)
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KevinMarks_ Hm.
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KevinMarks_ Skype crashed my mac
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aaronpk good lord
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aaronpk http link headers are annoying
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kylewm aaronpk: are you adding them in php or nginx?
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aaronpk php
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aaronpk how do I specify multiple Link headers?
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kylewm !tell barnabywalters woodwind says it subscribed to your feed successfully, but i'm not getting pings from you :(
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk i think maybe comma separated?
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tantek aaronpk - you can reverse engineer from my link header parsing code :)
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aaronpk ugh
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tantek pretty sure I wrote that a while ago as a patch for one your webmention libs
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aaronpk ah yeah
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aaronpk YAY it worked
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Loqi :D
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gRegor` aaronpk: Just multiple header() calls, right?
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gRegor` header('Link: xyz'); header('Link: abc');
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kylewm anxiously waits for aaronpk to post something
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor`, that doesn't always work
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tantek really?
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snarfed GWG: re your bridgy fb account, it was fine. the problem was that you looked for it at http://brid.gy/facebook/dshanske, but the url actually uses the user id, http://brid.gy/facebook/100002356503167
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ben_thatmustbeme it overwrites in php
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tantek dang
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gRegor` header() doesn't work with PHP run as CGI, I believe.
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snarfed (GWG: lookup by username is a good feature request, i'll look into it)
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kylewm snarfed: you already had it before, but it's broke now
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kylewm brid.gy/facebook/kyle.mahan used to work
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kylewm (iirc you added it because i kept going there and getting a 404)
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snarfed kylewm: lol
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why i have all my Link headers in one line
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tantek snarfed, appears the user id from graph.facebook.com/username works as brid.gy/facebook/id
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ben_thatmustbeme Link: <https://ben.thatmustbe.me/webmention>; rel="webmention", <https://indieauth.com/auth>; rel="authorization_endpoint", <https://ben.thatmustbe.me/token>; rel="token_endpoint", <https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub>; rel="micropub"
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snarfed it was probably using the api. i also have the username stored somewhere, so i can look it up instead
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snarfed tantek: that's v1 api :(
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tantek seems to work without auth?
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snarfed tantek: yup. again, v1 api. dies in april.
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tantek whoa - didn't realize they were killing graph.facebook.com
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aaronpk gRegor`: for header it needs a second parameter "false"
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snarfed tantek: they're not. they're just killing the v1 api
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snarfed v2.x still use graph.facebook.com
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gRegor` Good to know.
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tantek so they're just killing the auth-less version?
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gRegor` I know PHP can be silly sometimes, but I didn't think it would be that silly
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snarfed yes
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ben_thatmustbeme was just looking that up
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aaronpk but one of my sites uses a framework which has its own way of dealing with headers, which doesn't support multiple
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tantek I wonder if there's a pattern in amount of time (years?) between API introduction, and dropping of auth-less API
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tantek e.g. Twitter did it when they dropped v1 APIs as well
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tantek aaronpk, kylewm remind me again why PuSH support in practice depends on Superfeedr?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i just ended up hacking in the second 'replace' param several times in the past
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kylewm tantek: it doesn't
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tantek kylewm: oh? all the recipes for 0.4 seem to force usage of superfeedr - or am I missing something.
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aaronpk superfeedr is just the best implemented hub right now
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kylewm oh /PuSH#How_To or on aaronpk's new page?
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aaronpk and the hub is the hardest part to implement, so that's likely to be true for a while
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tantek aaronpk, are there any *other* PuSH 0.4 supporting hubs?
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aaronpk i think google's?
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kylewm https://pubsubhubbub.appspot.com/ definitely
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tantek really? even for HTML?
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aaronpk oh that's another good reason to use the expiration parameter... that way subscribers have to re-discover the hub after some time, so people can change hubs
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kylewm well... actually i can't confirm that it works for HTMl because I haven't gotten a ping from barnaby
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aaronpk kylewm: you could just send one for barnaby as a test :)
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kylewm lol, that's a good point
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GWG snarfed: What kylewm said.
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GWG snarfed: Also user page is messed up for me
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snarfed GWG: can you elaborate? https://www.brid.gy/facebook/100002356503167 looks ok to me
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GWG snarfed: /users
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snarfed ah
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snarfed btw i suspect the fb 2.x api no longer gives us username, which is why username urls like /facebook/dshanske no longer work after re-signing up
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KevinMarks_ what?
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KevinMarks_ how broken is that
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snarfed GWG: hmm. https://www.brid.gy/users looks ok to me too. slow, but ok. can you describe what's wrong?
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snarfed KevinMarks: :P
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kylewm aaronpk: tantek: well crud, I sent a ping to barnaby's hub, got back a 204, but woodwind didn't get a notification
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GWG snarfed: It was only showing me the names of people who started with K
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GWG snarfed: I just did a Ctrl-Refresh. It seems fine now
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GWG Odd though
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KevinMarks_ just realised slack has /feed command
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snarfed GWG: you probably had a ?start_name=… in your url
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aaronpk kylewm: does that suggest google's hub doesn't support html?
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kylewm that's my only guess, but why would it let you subscribe??
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Loqi slack/kevinmarks: well, we can look at the code
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kylewm i suppose it's possible that i sent a ping, it checks the source and sees it hasn't changed, and decides my ping was bogus?
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aaronpk could be
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GWG snarfed: I did not actually.
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aaronpk wait for him to post something then send it again :)
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snarfed GWG: hmm ok, sorry. not sure then
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GWG snarfed: Weird cache thing?
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snarfed maybe!
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@t @badosa *just* saw my typo. Apologies & thank you for the correction! Fixed on my site at least http://tantek.com/2015/055/t1/two-more-indiewebcamp-translations (ttk.me t4_t3) (twitter.com/_/status/571425547915431937)
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@W6AZ Is BIG BROTHER following what this guy is up to? How about the BIG 3? He just keeps diggin' @davewiner #indieweb http://scripting.com/2015/02/27/excuseTheSalesPitch.html (twitter.com/_/status/571425648780177409)
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kylewm wat
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Loqi [bridgy] Tantek Çelik replied '@badosa *just* saw my typo. Apologies &amp; thank you for the correction! Fixed on my site at least tantek.com/2015/055/t1/tw… (ttk.me t4_t3...' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page-es (https://twitter.com/t/status/571425547915431937)
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Loqi [bridgy] Tantek Çelik replied '@badosa *just* saw my typo. Apologies &amp; thank you for the correction! Fixed on my site at least tantek.com/2015/055/t1/tw… (ttk.me t4_t3...' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page-ca (https://twitter.com/t/status/571425547915431937)
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tantek "[…] because if lots of people used my software […]" and that's how to encourage /monoculture
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GWG I'm suddenly wondering if I should let people like from my site
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tantek GWG - via webaction buttons?
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GWG tantek: Actually, a 'local' like function set up as a webaction for people who have their own site. I was thinking about the point at which backfeed stops working
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GWG I started thinking about it when I couldn't find my bridgy facebook user page
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GWG More people respond on Facebook, regrettably, than directly or through other services.
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tantek GWG, with webactions you don't need a local like function for people who have their own site - that's the point!
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tantek you just add <indie-action> tags, do the JS magic to load indie-config if it is there, and you've enabled folks
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GWG tantek: I was thinking of the people who don't have their own site.
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tantek GWG, then I misread you above.
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GWG tantek: May have been unclear.
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aaronpk OMG IT WORKED!!!!
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GWG I'm wondering if I should modify the comment form in WordPress to allow for 'no comment'.
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GWG aaronpk: What did?
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aaronpk I liked a tweet and saw it appear instantaneously in woodwind!!!
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tantek kylewm ?
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aaronpk kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 129 karma
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tantek GWG - are you suggesting an explicit (No comment) button?
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tantek that would actually be kind of a funny webaction
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tantek it's like a subtle form of downvote
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tantek GWG, perhaps for April fools?
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tantek then you could create a facepile of people who clicked "no comment"
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GWG tantek: No. I meant to allow people to submit a like by sending a comment without text.
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tantek GWG, I think fallback to Twitter is good enough for that
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tantek rather than a local db
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GWG tantek: Still requires an external site.
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tantek true - but avoids you having to do all the auth
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tantek so it's faster as a fallback
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tantek and then you can enhance from there
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GWG tantek: The auth is done. WordPress has a commenting system built in already
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aaronpk i've seen some sites with public no-auth "like" buttons, thyey're kind of funny
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tantek they use cookies?
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GWG Going to update my user page
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aaronpk presumably
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aaronpk oh yeah http://blog.svbtle.com/ is one
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aaronpk they call it "kudos" though
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aaronpk there's a wordpress plugin that will do it too
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GWG There often is
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david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (+59) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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aaronpk sweeet, spiderpig is now properly parsing urls it finds inside css files
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tantek oh boy.
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aaronpk that's something almost every alternative If ound doesn't do
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aaronpk maybe "properly" is an overstatement, but it works in this case :)
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tantek resists showing aaronpk Hixie's old CSS @import test suite.
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aaronpk oh god
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tantek would likely crash spiderpig
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aaronpk yeah i'm actualy just doing the url() one for now
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tantek as when he wrote it, he successfully crashed pretty much every browser
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aaronpk to find images and fonts references by the css file
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tantek oh sure. how's your quote escaping handling?
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aaronpk backs away slowly
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tantek not like I've had to write / maintain any of this code myself, you know, back in the late 1990s. ahem.
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tantek sadly it's all locked/lost in closed source :(
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aaronpk well this one's open source so feel free to send a PR! :-D
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tantek resists opening a github issue linking to Hixie's evil import test suite.
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tantek maybe I'll wait til *after* IWC Cambrdige
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tantek Cambridge even
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aaronpk i have one goal with this for now, so I am unlikely to make it support more than I need right now
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tantek speaking of goals...
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tantek goes back looking at old open tabs
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tantek what is an invitation?
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Loqi An invitation is an optional feature of an event post (an event with invitations), or a reply to an event post that also notifies a list of invitees that they've been invited to the event, or a special case of that, an RSVP to an event that also invites additional people to it https://indiewebcamp.com/invitation
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tantek oh wow how timely. kylewm *just four days ago* answered this question from last October: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-20#t1413860455506
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kylewm that was one of your open tabs???
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kylewm i meant to ask if any of you saw that invitation
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tantek yeah. whenever I braindump into the IRC channel far more than I wikify, I keep a permalink to it as a "wiki this at some point" reminder
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tantek kylewm: good q. I don't know who has homepage webmentions implemented
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tantek kylewm per our discussion about mf2 parsing and objects inside properties, should we be using u-invitee instead of p-invitee? to prefer the homepage URL of the person being invited?
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aaronpk i accept home page webmentions and display them on http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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tantek (I think we should be using u-invitee instead of p-invitee but want to double check my reasoning with you before editing the wiki page since you used p-invitee recently)
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kylewm argh of course you're right
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kylewm I'll edit my example
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kylewm well, I guess it could go either way?
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kylewm I still think I would use p-author h-card, not u-author h-card
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tantek right - it's a good question
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tantek I thought URL because then you can get more information there by default
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tantek but how would it present?
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tantek or do we *require* that all *-invitee consumers look for the h-card?
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kylewm ahh good point, if you webmentioned me, I would be looking for my url, not (some variation of) my name
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tantek right!
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kylewm so i would want at least my url
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tantek another way of thinking about it is that the default human expectation when a person is being referred to is to see their name rather than their URL.
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KevinMarks_ I have homepage webmentions
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KevinMarks_ via webmention.herokuapp.com
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tantek however when you phrase it as a "what would/should the webmention receiver do with the *-invitee?" then it makes more sense to use u-invitee
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aaronpk why is this a special case?
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tantek of homepage webmentions?
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aaronpk I already have written code that has to look for u-* and h-* u-*
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tantek btw for background: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Nested_h-.2A_objects.27_.22value.22_property
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aaronpk like when looking at the in-reply-to property
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tantek aaronpk - the goal is to *simplify* consuming code
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KevinMarks_ still boggled by this http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/
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aaronpk it might be u-in-reply-to but might also be p-in-reply-to h-cite
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aaronpk yeah i'd love it if I didn't have to check both, but people are publishing both
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tantek aaronpk - that's exactly why we fixed it
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tantek to always use u-in-reply-to instead
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aaronpk wait what since when do we always use u-in-reply-to?
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tantek since we resolved this brainstorm: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Nested_h-.2A_objects.27_.22value.22_property
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tantek and started updating the wiki accordingly
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aaronpk oh right. but I still have to check if the "in-reply-to" property is a plain string or is an object, and if it's an object, then use the "value" property
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tantek no the point is to avoid having to do that
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tantek if publishers always use u-in-reply-to
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tantek then it will always have a URL, even when there's an embedded h-cite
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kylewm you'd still have to do what aaronpk said
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tantek the point is that "u-in-reply-to h-cite" will get the "value" of the "u-url" property of the h-cite if any
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tantek kylewm: you're right
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aaronpk but that appears in my code as "in-reply-to": [{...hcite object...}] instead of "in-reply-to":"string"
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tantek that's a general thing about any property that could have an embedded object
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tantek aaronpk - hopefully with a "value" key inside that object also
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aaronpk the new parsing rule is good though because that is something that can be made generic enough to be handled by something like barnaby's mf-cleaner
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aaronpk because it doesn't require knowledge of the nested object vocab
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tantek that's the idea
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KevinMarks_ so <details><summary> is a browser native outliner?
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aaronpk e.g. I could make a function called get_property_value($obj,$key) which does the logic of "if $obj->$key is a string then return it, otherwise if $obj->key is an object, return $obj->$key->value"
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tantek aaronpk yes!
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aaronpk (very ugly rough pseudocode)
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aaronpk whoa, google registered .dev and is keeping it all to themselves http://sealedabstract.com/rants/google-our-patron-saint-of-the-closed-web/
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sparverius i kind of view all tlds that arent in the core ICANN set as not really real and also dumb
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sparverius that may be an unfair/primitive view of 'em. i should really get something into that blockchain based dns.
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sparverius except for clownpenis.fart. i want clownpenis.fart
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KevinMarks_ admist he got mixes.house
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kylewm google just bought .app too
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aaronpk they're letting other people register those though
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aaronpk like a normal registrar
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aaronpk apparently all .blog domains will be powered by blogger
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KevinMarks_ why .app and not .apk ?
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GWG I just went down the rabbit hole of features not documented anywhere but WordPress tickets.
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KevinMarks_ hm, this <details><sumamry> think seems ideal for unmung
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tantek wow WTF .dev GOOGLE!
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk i'm keeping my .dev to myself
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tantek dangit - does this threaten my use of .dev?
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aaronpk nah
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tantek like if I accidentally share a .dev link to someone
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aaronpk just means if google ever launches a product called "tantek" you won't be able to see the dev website for it
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tantek instead of a .com link
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tantek and they go to it
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tantek then Google MITM them?
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aaronpk oh yeah it depends on what google does with un-registered .dev domains
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aaronpk most TLDs don't resolve un-registered ones, but some of them serve you up a splash page about the registrar
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tantek hey benwerd, you should apply for .known :P
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aaronpk lol that seems like a great use of $185,000
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tantek as in, I can't believe new blog hosts won't do this
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tantek in that article it says google applied for .blog already, for blogger
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tantek motive: usability! "By contrast, our application for the .blog TLD describes a new way of automatically linking new second level domains to blogs on our Blogger platform – this approach eliminates the need for any technical configuration on the part of the user and thus makes the domain name more user friendly"
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KevinMarks_ and they justify it with .mil and .edu
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aaronpk yes, the same way *.withknown.com blogs work right now
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aaronpk problem is i bet you won't be able to point your *.blog site somewhere else
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aaronpk s/site/domain
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: problem is i bet you won't be able to point your *.blog domain somewhere else
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aaronpk this is Bad™
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KevinMarks_ so, is this outline view good for unmung? http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fscripting.com%2Frss.xml
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KevinMarks_ (check in safari or chrome - FF doesn't support it yet)
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: that's crazy, the browser is doing the collapsing thing?
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KevinMarks_ yes, it's the stuff tantek mentione yesterday as a trick for longdesc
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KevinMarks_ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/details#Browser_compatibility
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aaronpk that's crazy. i feel like it's 1999 and i'm just discovering that you can add borders to things with css
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KevinMarks_ needs a polyfil for moz etc
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KevinMarks_ http://caniuse.com/#search=details
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KevinMarks_ it does break the fragmention code though, as fragmention won't open a hidden node
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tantek is this worthy amplifying? http://sealedabstract.com/rants/google-our-patron-saint-of-the-closed-web/ or maybe wait til Monday to do so?
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tantek seems interesting both in the "threat to indieweb" and "look Google cares about blog hosting UX" aspects
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snarfed tantek: i'm biased, but it seemed pretty overwrought to me
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snarfed it sucks that they don't want to allow registration of .dev domains, and the internal-only plan seems weird and dumb
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snarfed ...and there may be a case to be made that they hurt the open web in some ways, maybe even net overall
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snarfed ...but not opening .dev and limiting .blog to blogger ain't that case
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aaronpk limiting .blog to blogger is certainly hurting the open web
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snarfed aaronpk: fair, in the specific case that you can't switch providers
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aaronpk yes that's the whole point
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aaronpk domains should not be tied to hosting
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aaronpk and now they will be
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snarfed i take that point, but the blog post makes way way bigger conclusions
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snarfed but eh. subjective.
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aaronpk the .dev thing sucks but isn't the end of the world
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snarfed exactly
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aaronpk it's just kind of arrogant
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snarfed sure
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KevinMarks_ other new tld's have "who can register" rules too, don't they?
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KevinMarks_ like .ceo
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snarfed that's eligibility though, not migration
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KevinMarks_ so I get epeus.blog ?
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snarfed maybe?
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aaronpk i'll totally register aaronpk.blog and have one blog post on blogger that points to my site :P
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KevinMarks_ hm, if I put the p-summary in summary and the e-content in details?
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KevinMarks_ blogger lets you host redirects
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aaronpk orly
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pdurbin tantek_: seems interesting. "bookmarked"
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