#indiewebcamp 2015-03-22

2015-03-22 UTC
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snarfed hey aaronpk, mind reconnecting your instagram on bridgy? it's been unhappy for a day or so, and i'm not sure why. 400s from the instagram api.
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snarfed https://www.brid.gy/instagram/aaronpk
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GWG snarfed: Isn't he in Europe?
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snarfed GWG: yup
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GWG snarfed: Any news?
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snarfed GWG: can you elaborate?
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GWG snarfed: Just in general. I have time. Still trying to get home from Indiewebcamp
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GWG It's given me a lot of time to think on what I want to do next
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snarfed great!
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GWG I wasn't sure what was on your mind. Any new projects? I'm still in camp mode
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snarfed let's see
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snarfed i set up real monitoring and alerting for bridgy and huffduff-video
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GWG For users or you?
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snarfed oh, me
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy#monitoring , https://github.com/snarfed/huffduff-video#monitoring
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snarfed otherwise mostly non-indieweb. https://snarfed.org/2015-03-15_new-job
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GWG Home...finally.
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GWG But...I got a lot of reverse geolocation UI testing tme
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GWG kylewm: How do you generate your static maps?
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@metrotipu #BeritaBohong #PimredGendut #MediaBlackout #JurnalismeBusuk @RepublikBoneka #BoikotDetikCom @PresidenBoneka #IndieWeb https://twitter.com/metrotipu/status/579483077639983106/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/579484893719199744)
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@tidak_hanya RT @metrotipu: #BeritaBohong #PimredGendut #MediaBlackout #JurnalismeBusuk @RepublikBoneka #BoikotDetikCom @PresidenBoneka #IndieWeb http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/579485740196745217)
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tantek GWG, great to see/hear about your progress on location / checkins!
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GWG tantek: I'll get there
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+28) "/* Interests */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks the Prof. Dr. web design style: http://contemporary-home-computing.org/prof-dr-style/
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KartikPrabhu phew! auto-embeding vimeo videos in notes response context: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/the-putter
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KartikPrabhu also flickr embeds: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/month=2015-01
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I'm not seeing any of the flickr embeds - they're all black rectangles to me
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tantek do they require JS perhaps?
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KartikPrabhu aah yes stupid flickr wants a player script to be downloaded!
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tantek (which is pretty dumb for embedding *an image* !!!)
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KartikPrabhu I know. I can just put the images in, but flickr gives no sane way to get alt-text and title etc...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: how would you do it indie to indie?
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KartikPrabhu good point must think about that
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KartikPrabhu i would probably grab the u-photo element and go from there
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KartikPrabhu judas priest. Vimeo video works without JS but not Flickr image embed
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KartikPrabhu flickr--
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Loqi flickr has -1 karma
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tantek KartikPrabhu: what I mean about indie to indie is, perhaps document that in /photo#Brainstorming - e.g. "How to embed" and "How to make embeddable"
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KartikPrabhu will play around with some examples to see what actually is the problem, and then add them there
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tantek cool
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tantek and feel free to add to /Flickr#Criticism too as far as their dependence on JS for embedding a simple static image
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KartikPrabhu what is flickr
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Loqi Flickr is a silo for storing and organizing photos and short (max 90sec) & small (max 150MB) videos https://indiewebcamp.com/Flickr
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Flickr (+173) "criticism of embed code" (view diff)
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@kartik_prabhu playing with @Flickr photo embeds on site. Why does a simple photo embed need Javascript!? #indieweb… (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/flickr-embed-js) (twitter.com/_/status/579564248826695681)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: even after hard refresh bridgy does not seem to respect the "don't include link" thing
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@javascriptd RT @kartik_prabhu: playing with @Flickr photo embeds on site. Why does a simple photo embed need Javascript!? #indieweb… (https://t.co/GjVB… (twitter.com/_/status/579565471294312449)
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KartikPrabhu hehe! does that account simply retweet anything with "javascript" in it? :P
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KartikPrabhu (04:02:48 AM) Divya T
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KartikPrabhu oops and now youtube https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/ambition-sci-fi :)
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@adactio @pwcc No, I’m PESOSing from Instagram to my own site with https://ownyourgram.com/ (a great tool by @aaronpk that uses indieauth + micropub). (twitter.com/_/status/579578555262222337)
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@textformer Um 12 Uhr mache ich im Sofaraum (158) etwas Werbung fürs #indieweb (eigenes Blog > Social Media). #bcruhr8 (twitter.com/_/status/579596527695458305)
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@Weltenkreuzer Jetzt zum Indieweb mit @textformer #bcruhr8 (twitter.com/_/status/579599291557236736)
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@StanVitte .@textformer erklärt #Indieweb: own your content, own your data. Mehr: http://www.indiewebcamp.de #posse #bcruhr8 https://twitter.com/StanVitte/status/579602936524853248/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/579602936524853248)
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@Pixelkurier RT @StanVitte: .@textformer erklärt #Indieweb: own your content, own your data. Mehr: http://www.indiewebcamp.de #posse #bcruhr8 http://t.co/cG… (twitter.com/_/status/579603714161438720)
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@gutenApp Informatives session über #indieweb von einem Profí danke @textformer #bcruhr8 https://twitter.com/gutenApp/status/579607709164666880/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/579607709164666880)
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@ucation RT @gutenApp: Informatives session über #indieweb von einem Profí danke @textformer #bcruhr8 https://twitter.com/gutenApp/status/579607709164666880/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/579607926530269184)
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@textformer Meine (alten) Slides zum #indieweb: http://textformer.de/slides/dcb14/ Außerdem: http://indiewebcamp.com/ + http://indiewebify.me/ #bcruhr8 (twitter.com/_/status/579612689175019520)
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indiewebcamp
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@marcelreschke RT @textformer: Meine (alten) Slides zum #indieweb: http://textformer.de/slides/dcb14/ Außerdem: http://indiewebcamp.com/ + http://indiewebify.me/ #bcruh… (twitter.com/_/status/579640307437944832)
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GWG And life continues...
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Loqi slack/snarfed: kartikprabhu: sorry for the trouble!
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Loqi slack/snarfed: hmm, i was able to preview without links on both my account and yours
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Loqi slack/snarfed: looking at the logs, this one you asked to buy include a link, and it didn't: <https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1427013836&amp;key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyVQsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiLmh0dHBzOi8va2FydGlrcHJhYmh1LmNvbS9ub3Rlcy9mbGlja3ItZW1iZWQtanMMCxIHUHVibGlzaBiAgICAgICACgw>
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Loqi slack/snarfed: and this later one you asked for the link, and it did include it: <https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1427024511&amp;key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyTQsSDVB1Ymxpc2hlZFBhZ2UiJmh0dHBzOi8va2FydGlrcHJhYmh1LmNvbS9ub3Rlcy9tb3JuaW5nDAsSB1B1Ymxpc2gYgICAgICAgAoM>
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Loqi slack/snarfed: er, s/buy/not/
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gRegor` kylewm: I used your site search to try to find an original of https://snarfed.org/easy-indieweb-interactions-on-android#comment-2583694. There were no results, but no message to that effect either. Just FYI if you wanted to add a message.
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gRegor` snarfed are your wm moderated? I got a 200, but it hasn't shown up on https://snarfed.org/easy-indieweb-interactions-on-android
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snarfed gRegor`: no, my caching is just dumb and overly aggressive. i need to fix it, i'm just lazy and not sure how. thanks for the nudge, on my todo list now
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gRegor` Ah. W3 Total Cache?
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snarfed super cache
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snarfed i like it because it renders to static html and serves that via apache/htaccess, skips running php at all for most pages
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GWG snarfed: I sort of worry about an app that has Google Buzz enabled by default
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snarfed but wms dont' clear it :/
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+160) "/* Completed */" (view diff)
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snarfed GWG: umm...context?
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (-14) "/* Completed */" (view diff)
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GWG snarfed: The article gRegor` just linked to of yours from a while back. I was wondering out loud
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snarfed gRegor`: fixed
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gRegor` Oh yeah, Bookmarklet free has a "Google Buzz" option that's on by default, heh.
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snarfed GWG: sounds like a pretty minor concern. the app works, which is all i care about
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gRegor` Same. I'm only using it to reply on my site.
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gRegor` Interestingly it shows up in the share menu as just "My Services", but that's minor.
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GWG snarfed: I just worry it will break as no one is maintaining it.
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snarfed GWG: maybe! i'll worry about that if/when it actually breaks
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GWG That won't stop me either way
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gRegor` I think Android would have to majorly change some things to break that app
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snarfed gRegor`: interesting, you use p-in-reply-to, not u-, which is why your reply's content doesn't show up on my post
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snarfed (i'm guessing)
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gRegor` tries to remember why I'm doing that
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gRegor` The nested h-cite?
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gRegor` Instead of in-reply-to returning a URL or array of URLs
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snarfed shrug
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gRegor` I can't remember why I'm doing it that way. Perhaps in preparation for adding the contents of the reply-context
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gRegor` cowboy microformats
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snarfed looking at https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=http://gregorlove.com/notes/2015/03/22/1/ , looks like the difference is that the in-reply-to prop is a compound object, not a plain string
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snarfed which is maybe technically valid. consider filing an issue against https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks ?
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snarfed backs away slowly
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gRegor` Hah
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snarfed GWG might be interested
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GWG snarfed: Haven't I bothered that poor man enough?
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gRegor` will file it
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GWG I'm kidding. But I will second it, as I think I am using p as well
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voxpelli GWG: gRegor`: Just looked at my webmention code and it supports such in-reply-to markup so yeah, file a feature request to pfefferle :)
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GWG Pfefferle is moving right now. Might be a bit.
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gRegor` Filed: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/issues/22
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gRegor` That's fine. I just won't reply to snarfed for now. :) jk
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gRegor` This Bookmarklet Free thing is going to make replying from Twitter app so much easier
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gRegor` snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 95 karma
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Loqi slack/snarfed: nice!
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ben_thatmustbeme woo, all php-mf2 unit tests passing on my machine
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ben_thatmustbeme on my mac i get one failing, oddly, apparetnly it reaplces user:@.... with user@ when there is no PW
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ben_thatmustbeme strange
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ben_thatmustbeme i want to say bigbluehat would have something to say on that case
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: You recovered yet?
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kylewm that's strange I've been able to reply to snarfed before, with a reply context
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GWG kylewm: It isn't that
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GWG !tell snarfed It is a bug pfefferle introduced in the last version
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG kylewm: I asked you a question, I guess you weren't around.
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: are you gonna start hacking on php-mf2?
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zachdonovan kylewm: heads up, kylewm.com returns a 500 for me right now
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petermolnar !tell pfefferle https://pfefferle.github.io/openwebicons/ fails to load some assets from http sources on https; you should probably take a look at it
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Hello, petermolnar.
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petermolnar hi
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GWG petermolnar: Available for brain picking?
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aaronpk feedback on logo for Switchboard? https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7612/16710890409_da187c45a7_b.jpg
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GWG What is it supposed to symbolize?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "it supposed to symbolize" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=it+supposed+to+symbolize&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-22%2Fline%2F1427052604633
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GWG aaronpk: Are you your logo designer?
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GWG It reminds me of the pattern people draw to unlock their phones
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aaronpk i pretend i can design things sometimes
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aaronpk it's supposed to be a patch panel
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aaronpk https://influxis.com/app/uploads/2014/06/switchboard-operator.jpg
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petermolnar GWG back, sorry, I was away for dinner
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petermolnar define brain picking
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GWG aaronpk: You need a patch cable then, I thin
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GWG petermolnar: I'm working on a new WordPress Indiewebish plugin as part of my trip to IWC. I wanted thoughts
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GWG No testing required right now
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petermolnar what would it do?
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@raretrack Q: if I want @withknown #Known and @ownclouders #OwnCloud hosted on the same site, would I need something like @IndieHosters ? #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/579729115109982208)
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GWG petermolnar: It adds location to posts and pages. But this is the question
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GWG WordPress has a geodata parameter to store things. It uses freeform text for the address, whereas microformats require structured data.
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petermolnar I'm not that familiar with geodata; I'd store everything in longitude and latitude and transform it on the fly, but that probably requires 3rd party service
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petermolnar otherwise the internationalization will be an issue
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petermolnar for example, I live at a place which only has a name and not a number as house "number"
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@mapkyca Sweet! This tweet was sent via my known site on the command line! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/579735031284912128)
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GWG petermolnar: I'm working on the logic to turn the various returned fields into the appropriate microformats ones. So I've added the entire h-adr structure as post meta.
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GWG I don't want to request the data on load, only on save/publish so it will be stored with the post, and then it can be manually edited by the user if they don't like the return.
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petermolnar sounds reasonable
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GWG petermolnar: I'm also allowing that a Page(as opposed to a Post) with location information can be classified as a venue.
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GWG Which may create some issues in markup.
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GWG petermolnar: I've been building pieces of this and trying out how the UI should work. My goal is to make it fit in neatly.
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petermolnar let me know if I can help somehow
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GWG petermolnar: When I get it to a certain point, I may ask you to test it and give me your opinion. Creating a location solution for WordPress is hard.
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GWG petermolnar: There is the Geolocation plugin, but it was missing two things I considered critical. One was HTML5 geolocation support.
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petermolnar I know, I've tried 3 times; one time I was looking for a working point it on the map solution, another was to get venues & similar
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petermolnar the Geolocation plugin is a mess
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: the "S" is a little too fragmented
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cuibonobo i've noticed an interesting thing that I wanted to bounce off of y'all
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GWG petermolnar: Will keep you posted.
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cuibonobo visiting the /irc/today page, I noticed my Privacy Badger extension detected some trackers
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petermolnar since I have a tendency to miss messages here, please poke me on hello@petermolnar.eu :)
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cuibonobo here's what it shows for me: https://i.imgur.com/ROjxVzs.png
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KartikPrabhu hmmm oh no aaronpk and kylewm are tracking us!!!
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cuibonobo seems like it's detecting images from other domains as 'trackers', but i'm not sure why only aaronpk and kylewm show up
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KartikPrabhu actually I am curious as to what those trackers are
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cuibonobo presumably, everybody that points their avatar to their domain should be counted as a 'tracker', so why does it count only these two?
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KartikPrabhu yeah i was looking at the src to check that
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme also has his avatar from his own site
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snarfed cuibonobo: sounds like a Privacy Badger implementation detail. probably not very meaningful or worth investigating deeply
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GWG petermolnar: I also need to design something that works with or without my other plugins, which is always interesting.
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Loqi snarfed: GWG left you a message 3 hours, 31 minutes ago: It is a bug pfefferle introduced in the last version http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-22/line/1427044863181
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petermolnar GWG I know that problem; once I've tried to make a common abstract class and I hit the wall with PHP whereas it cannot re-declare an abstract class... I'd say copy-paste is your friend, sadly.
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GWG petermolnar: More I need to figure out progressive enhancement
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cuibonobo it seems to be that other people have a generic image name like 'profile.jpg' or 'icon_64.png', while aaronpk and kylewm have their name, plus a number
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cuibonobo having a more unique image name makes it look like it's being used for tracking purposes
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cuibonobo *shrug*
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GWG cuibonobo: It shouldn't matter though, should it?
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cuibonobo GWG: not really. just a curiosity
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@HongPong .@benwerd heard lots of praise for yr work at #indiewebcamp, cheers keep it up :) (twitter.com/_/status/579754711068205056)
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rhiaro are there any ~something~ *to* microformats converters?
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KartikPrabhu rhiaro: something being?
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GWG rhiaro: Plenty
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GWG rhiaro: Depends on the something
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rhiaro something being anything. What's been done?
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GWG There are some shims.
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GWG rhiaro: For example, https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf2-shim
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GWG Even Bridgy is a converter of sorts
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KartikPrabhu unmung.com
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KartikPrabhu rss/atom to mf2 h-feed
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GWG rhiaro, KartikPrabhu: You just gave me an idea
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rhiaro right, php-mf2-shim adds mf to html
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rhiaro GWG... what idea?
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GWG rhiaro: I've been working with nominatim reverse address lookup. I might abstract my code a bit more so it could be used elsewhere. It takes the results and tries to convert them to MF2
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GWG Unfortunately for me, nominatim is very inconsistent in the fields it returns.
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GWG I haven't been able to find a good reference
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snarfed rhiaro: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial
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rhiaro ooh, thanks snarfed
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snarfed e.g. https://twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com/
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rhiaro snarfed: does that library do activitystreams to microformats?
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rhiaro wait, I think I found it
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snarfed rhiaro: yes
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rhiaro awesome
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rhiaro as1 or 2?
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial#using-the-library
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snarfed mostly 1
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snarfed microformats2.*_to_html() and *_to_json()
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rhiaro yes I found that. Thanks!
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butterwell So, I have my personal site http://butterwell.exploratori.us/ is up, and even has a post. Is (manual) posse to twitter and facebook essentially sharing the link?
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GWG butterwell: Not always. Sometimes it is a full repost
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GWG Who here "owns their bookmarks"?
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butterwell In a full repost, is it common to link to the original?
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GWG butterwell: For post-discovery, yes.
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GWG But it doesn't have to be the full Facebook style link
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GWG You can do citations, for example
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GWG What is a permashortcitation?
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Loqi A permashortcitation (or permashortid) is a short non-hyperlinked citation to a post permalink, in contrast to a permashortlink which does hyperlink to a post https://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitation
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GWG I don't do citations though
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GWG But that isn't a decision so much as the lack of one
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butterwell Got it.
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snarfed butterwell: alternatively, when we do include the full content, many of us don't like also linking (or using a PSC/PSL), so we put https://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication links on the original post instead
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snarfed (this is still an open debate in the community)
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GWG I do love Loqi being hooked to the wiki sometimes.
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Loqi dude
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GWG snarfed: I advocated for POSSE post-discovery on Bridgy.
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snarfed GWG: sure! it handles all options, though - links, PSCs, PSLs, rel-syndication - so it's not really an argument for any side
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snarfed oh, i see what you mean. original post discovery. nm.
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GWG snarfed: I think that was early in my tenure here
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snarfed GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 89 karma
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snarfed rhiaro: i'm guessing you've also seen https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping ? i haven't audited my code to see if it follows that, but i'd love to bring it in line eventually
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rhiaro yes
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rhiaro I'm just digging around in what's been done and what is missing
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GWG rhiaro: What's your itch?
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rhiaro tidying up my blog rendering code
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rhiaro which is triples -> html
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rhiaro Not much AS2 in it yet though
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@Butterwell http://butterwell.exploratori.us/#go #indiewebcamp @t (twitter.com/_/status/579768526292062209)
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GWG rhiaro: What is your take on AS2?
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rhiaro GWG: I dunno yet. I've read the spec but it's hard to form an opinion from that. I'm gradually adding AS2 terms to my data model until hopefully I can just publish a stream directly from my triplestore
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butterwell Okay, so Loki found the tweet, verified it was me via my site. Lovely. Grand. I'm envious. How do I show up as a picture-fied underlined person on IRC?
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GWG butterwell: IRC_People
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell aaronpk the logo would be better if it were several connections only connecting two points each though. and more accurate
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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butterwell.exploratori.us edited /IRC_People (+63) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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butterwell Did it work?
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butterwell Yes it did.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I have to correct something I said in Boston
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ben_thatmustbeme okay
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ben_thatmustbeme what?
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GWG If Facebook announces a new API for messenger at F8 on Wednesday, Google could feel pressure to open a Hangouts API for text communication.
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be excellent
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GWG It could be exactly what you want.
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GWG So, the future of open API messenging is in the hands of Facebook. Not promising.
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snarfed GWG: confused. afaik you can still use xmpp to talk to a hangouts account
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snarfed the only catch is that you have to do it *from* a google account, not an arbitrary federated xmpp acct
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GWG snarfed: Correct. But for how long?
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snarfed eh that sounds like fud. and predicting the future is a mug's game
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snarfed also, if they do launch an api for fb messenger, that'll be great, but i doubt they'd support full xmpp federation
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snarfed so based on your guess, fb would just be coming up to parity with hangouts, not past
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GWG snarfed: They won't. But ben_thatmustbeme wanted to unify his messenging on his site. So, it would be good news for that.
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snarfed got it, sure
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GWG I was poo-pooing that at IWC over FB discontinuing XMPP and Google abandoning it
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snarfed understood. again though, to be clear, google only abandoned *federation*, not xmpp entirely
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snarfed anyway. i don't feel as strongly about this as i sound :P
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GWG The news they might launch an alternative changes the tone.
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snarfed sure! let's talk more when we actually know something :P
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GWG I'm hoping to be optimistic.
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GWG snarfed: You know very well how a Facebook decision can cause trouble, such as their 2.0 API
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snarfed GWG: sure! but i also don't analyze rumors or speculation too deeply
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GWG snarfed: Agreed.
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GWG I'm backing away from my negative position, not toward a positive one
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GWG I'm going back to being annoyed with nominatim and its inconsistent fields
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@bookprescom STUDY: Facebook Pages’ Organic Reach Is Not Quite Dead >> http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/?p=617066&utm_content=buffer5c430&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from David Cohen. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/579779674118729729)
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tantek wat
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@LynnMagic @EmilyAviva I believe that's a part of the indiewebcamp thing. I can do some research later if you want? (twitter.com/_/status/579780467123036160)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2015/ (+22) "move IWC to completed" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme s/IWC/IWC Cambridge/
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that begs the question - when's the next one!
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tantek Düsseldorf or Edinburgh?
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GWG I thought you meant next Cambridge
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ben.thatmustbe.me uploaded /File:IWC_Cambridge_2015_group_photo.jpg "Group Photo from IWC Cambridge 2015.Originally posted athttp://timowens.io/2015/indiewebcamp-cambridge-2015"
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pwcc 'morning IWC
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snarfed hey pwcc
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pwcc Added PESOS Instagram to my notes section over the w/end.
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snarfed pwcc++
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snarfed ownyourgram?
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Loqi pwcc has 6 karma
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ben.thatmustbe.me uploaded /File:IWC_Cambridge_2015_group_dinner.jpg "Group Dinner from IWC Cambridge 2015Originally posted at http://timowens.io/2015/indiewebcamp-dinner-at-cambridge-2015"
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pwcc snarfed: Using http://w.org/plugins/keyring-social-importers/ until I get the micropub endpoint set up. Messed up indieauth when I relaunched :)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2015/Cambridge (+297) "/* Photos */ add photos from timowens" (view diff)
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snarfed got it
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snarfed wow, wordpress has w.org? impressive
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snarfed wonder how much they paid
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ben_thatmustbeme there, photos from IWC Cambridge are up
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tantek yay!
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Loqi yay!
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, GWG, check your spam mail BTW, we got email from that woman
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tantek oh from Halley?
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tantek great!
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pwcc A recent thing, they got it through http://www.project94.org/about-project94/ but not sure how much they paid.
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pwcc So you got people interested at IWC, that's great news.
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pwcc Everyone happy with how it went? (I've been self obsessed speaker these last fewdays)
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ben_thatmustbeme she just wanted confirmation that she has our email addresses correct
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tantek ok cool
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I sent it back
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tantek pwcc - it went great - now the task of writing up the demos, by who, at what URL, etc.
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pwcc tantek that's great news, these events tend to fire up attendees and orgs alike.
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GWG pwcc: I'm all fired up already
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@wilkieii @LynnMagic what indieweb wants is primarily data ownership oriented. obsessed with minimalism. they are like 10 years behind the times. (twitter.com/_/status/579786606434996225)
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GWG Of course, a room full of like minded people does that to me.
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GWG I did restrain myself from asking the lead developer of MediaGoblin to support microformats and webmention, as he seemed so excited about AS2
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tantek 10 years behind *whose* times?
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tantek what a strange tweet
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pwcc GWG: yeah, like minds - ideas being bounded around at a million miles an hour, etc.
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@ashedryden Have the same argument with the IndieWeb kids all the time. I'm not here for a "free" internet for a select hyper-privileged few. (twitter.com/_/status/579787595502125057)
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pwcc tantek: JavaScript MCVs perhapes?
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tantek pwcc - no I think it may be more social than technical.
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@Freerange_Inc RT @ashedryden: Have the same argument with the IndieWeb kids all the time. I'm not here for a "free" internet for a select hyper-privilege… (twitter.com/_/status/579788014257324032)
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tantek And the argument I have with framing like "not here for XYZ" is that it's flawed negative framing. Rather than say what you're not here for, instead say what you are here for.
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tantek Unfortunately it's easier to strawman such negative framing rather than ship and selfdogfood positive framing.
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@doogiec Finally got @withknown setup on my VPS. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/579788517934514176)
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pwcc The second tweet I understand better, there is a financial blocker to indieweb. Easier for a middle-class tech worker in a well paying job to rent their own server.
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tantek pwcc - no it's more confusion than that. This thread shows confusion between IndieWeb, identica, pump.io etc.:
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GWG pwcc: Why rent your own server? There are hosting options that don't require it
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snarfed pwcc: also you don't necessarily need a server to be indieweb. free hosts like wp.com, blogger, and tumblr can all be good indieweb citizens: indieauth, mf2, webmention, etc
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snarfed jinx!
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tantek even github.io!
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snarfed https://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting#Custom_domain_silos
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tantek confusion e.g.: https://twitter.com/EmilyAviva/status/579780297186676736
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@EmilyAviva @LynnMagic Didn’t there used to be an Open Source Twitter already? What happened to identi.ca? (twitter.com/_/status/579780297186676736)
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tantek then https://twitter.com/LynnMagic/status/579780467123036160
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@LynnMagic @EmilyAviva I believe that's a part of the indiewebcamp thing. I can do some research later if you want? (twitter.com/_/status/579780467123036160)
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tantek and then https://twitter.com/EmilyAviva/status/579780758639775744
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@EmilyAviva @LynnMagic Oh, it looks like it still exists—pump.io. Problem is, like all such projects, critical mass of active userbase (diaspora, ello…) (twitter.com/_/status/579780758639775744)
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pwcc This is true, it can be done on the cheap. Hosting works better for dog fooding. $10 can be an imposition for a domain.
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pwcc Then there are PCs, etc on top of that.
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tantek thus confusion / conflation between indieweb / identica / pump.io - all three of which are quite different (and sadly not interoperable - yet)
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pwcc Not to say it's a huge expense. Perceptions are important.
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tantek pwcc: it's not a huge expense. people pay more monthly for a cellphone than they would need to pay yearly for domain+webhosting.
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tantek thus the whole argument from monetary privilege falls pretty flat
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pwcc But, I think you're right tantek - what we're seeing in front of us is some confusion. But I try to be sympathetic to other POVs.
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tantek bigger issue is *difficulty* (AKA time necessary) in getting things working, maintaining etc.
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tantek pwcc - we should absolutely be sympathetic - because clearly there's an outrcy here for *some* form of alternative to popular social network silos
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pwcc Yes, and times an expense when you can't really afford a PC and have to work a second job
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snarfed also, re the '"free" internet' tweet, i think she meant (that we want) free as in freedom, not as in beer
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rhiaro notes we can't tell people what they can and can't afford based on what they may or may not already pay for
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rhiaro If a term needed coining, I'd go with richsplaining
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tantek heh
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rhiaro oh, that's already a thing
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tantek rhiaro: my point more is that time cost is a bigger problem here IMO than $ cost (especially since lots of foundations / orgs etc. have tried the throw money at the problem approach - e.g. OLPC etc.)
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rhiaro sure, the barrier is high in a number of ways, but existence of one barrier doesn't remove existence of a different barrier, that's all
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rhiaro re: twitter thread, I didn't know that's how wilkie felt
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tantek rhiaro: of course there are multiple barriers, I think it's important to point out which ones are (apparently) highest
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snarfed (i'm repeating myself, but i'm pretty sure they weren't talking about money anywhere in that thread)
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tantek rhiaro: I've seen wilkie vent once in a while so that's how I'm reading it (i.e. I don't think he means anything really insulting, just letting off steam)
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rhiaro snarfed: yes, I agree. Sounds like they think indieweb is a centralised system
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pwcc snarfed: agree, the Open Source Twitter comment etc.
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tantek rhiaro: indieweb does sometimes confuse people because they see through centralized assumption biases. e.g. people ask "where is the indieweb project that I can install"?
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tantek emphasis on the *the*
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rhiaro yeah
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snarfed rhiaro: that wasn't my reading either. assuming we're talking about this tweet, i think they were claiming hypocrisy since we like free, decentralized tech, but they think we're not diverse enough. https://twitter.com/ashedryden/status/579787595502125057
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@ashedryden Have the same argument with the IndieWeb kids all the time. I'm not here for a "free" internet for a select hyper-privileged few. (twitter.com/_/status/579787595502125057)
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snarfed (again free as in freedom)
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rhiaro There are a whole mess of issues raised in that thread
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snarfed ah, sure
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GWG Until I got involved here...I did not realize how controversial some of these things are
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tantek GWG, there are many controversial things. And there are only 24 hours in a day. Eveyrone has to prioritize and choose what to improve, and by opportunity cost, what gets neglected. Choosing nothing means everything gets neglected.