#indiewebcamp 2015-04-10

2015-04-10 UTC
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snarfed dog science is https://thesciencedog.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/golden-retriever-and-science1.jpg
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loqi.me created /dog_science (+125) "prompted by pdurbin https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428623981336 and dfn added by snarfed" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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benwerd That dog is my spirit animal
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pdurbin heh
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snarfed benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 70 karma
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pdurbin benwerd: in Cambridge I was telling tantek I think Known is pretty awesome and he said I should tell you that. so I'm telling you that :)
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benwerd pdurbin: That's really kind! Thank you!
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pdurbin benwerd: I mentioned it here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/thinkup/C180_08Ph7I/mWX5Sm0BMR8J
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benwerd Oh, interesting! We actually eventually made the decision to abandon PHP 5.3 after all with few adverse effects, but it's still a very good point
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benwerd (PHP 5.4 just introduces too many useful features)
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pdurbin oh!
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kylewm benwerd: exciting that you launched https://withknown.com/convoy/ ! i didn't realize it was that close to deploying
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tantek whoa!
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ben_thatmustbeme what is convoy?
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benwerd Thank you!
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "convoy" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=convoy&summary=prompted+by+ben_thatmustbeme+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428624916247
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benwerd Convoy is a way to use withknown.com's infrastructure to easily syndicate from your own site on your own server.
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loqi.me created /Convoy (+139) "prompted by ben_thatmustbeme https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428624916247 and dfn added by benwerd" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek POSSE as a paid service - well done benwerd
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tantek what is a business model?
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Loqi This is a braindump of business models that can support an open indie web https://indiewebcamp.com/business-model
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benwerd hahaha
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pdurbin benwerd: what are the main features you miss when using PHP 5.3?
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benwerd pdurbin: there are various semantic niceties around anonymous functions in particular, but also the array syntax and a few superfluous but nice touches
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benwerd (we use a lot of anonymous functions)
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frzn pdurbin: one that I remember is not having a builting server
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frzn built-in
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pdurbin ah, so you don't need MAMP or whatever
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ben_thatmustbeme i have successfully done deduplication of comments (i think)
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ben_thatmustbeme at least it succeeded on one test
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ben_thatmustbeme i just store syndication links for every post (and context)
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pdurbin benwerd: but PHP 5.4 is new enough? you're not dying to only support 5.6?
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kylewm.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+141) "/* 2015 */" (view diff)
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 64 karma
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benwerd pdurbin: Why stop at 5.6 when I could use PHP 7?
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benwerd But seriously: PHP 5.4 is about useful enough, and old enough that it's pretty widely supported
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tantek starts cleaning up the business models page - so much theory mixed in with practice
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tantek Identity Hosting Services - sheesh - who put that there?
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pdurbin huh, I don't even see a PHP 7 at http://php.net
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benwerd pdurbin: It's on the way http://www.sitepoint.com/php-7-revolution-return-types-removed-artifacts/
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pdurbin ah
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@npm_tweets indieweb 0.0.0 https://www.npmjs.com/package/indieweb undefined (twitter.com/_/status/586325279389417472)
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kylewm release timed to coincide with Perl 6?
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pdurbin "Christmas"
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benwerd Nothing says Christmas like PHP
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tantek what is Prowl?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Prowl
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tantek what is Prowl?
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benwerd On business models, and in particular bundling, I'd love to see a few more indieweb startups that could come together to create an Indie Web Bundle
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Prowl
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bengo yes plz
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tantek.com edited /Prowl (+11) "dfn" (view diff)
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bengo How would one distribute an 'Indie Web Bundle'?
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tantek what is Akismet?
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Loqi Akismet is an anti-spam webservice from Automattic https://indiewebcamp.com/Akismet
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bengo FWIW Akismet has kind of tanked since they got bought. A couple years ago we did an analysis of spam detection vendors. They performed pretty meh. Impermium was really strong, but then Google bought them.
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tantek.com edited /Akismet (+82) "Akismet has paid levels" (view diff)
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bengo So now we do it in-house
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tantek bengo - care to add to https://indiewebcamp.com/Akismet#Issues ?
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tantek if you can add specifics? e.g. dates of when quality of service dropped, or when you stopped using them
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bengo We never used them, just analyzed a few vendors. Let me see what I can share in terms of specifics and not just slandering them :)
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tantek looks like Snowdrift is still vapor
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tantek "a work in progress: public ALPHA — not functioning yet"
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tantek going to optimistically call that one "in progress"
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tantek since it's also self-labeled s such
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bengo tantek: https://cldup.com/TzdWmuCPY8-3000x3000.png
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tantek bengo - wow
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kylewm what does 99% false positives mean?
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tantek yeah that's what I was wondering
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tantek Is Prowl a paid app?
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bengo.is edited /Akismet (+688) "add some info about Akismet from some internal research" (view diff)
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tantek what is Janrain?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Janrain" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Janrain&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428626669096
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tantek Janrain is https://janrain.com/
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loqi.me created /Janrain (+58) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428626669096 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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bengo Janrain is an Identity Provider (as a service) company based out of Portland, Oregon. Many enterprises use them to store user data, help with social login, and proxy requests to Silo APIs
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bengo I've worked with them a decent amount. All to familiar with their solutions
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bengo Actually... Janrain Engage is kind of like convoy... https://withknown.com/convoy/
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bengo but b2b
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bengo.is edited /Janrain (+240) (view diff)
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acegiak GWG: did you still want me to test something?
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kylewm unsurprisingly i'm curious about the teaser "And of course, it needn't be limited to Known at all ..." (http://werd.io/2015/convoy-is-a-new-kind-of-progressive-enhancement-for-self-hosted)
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tantek.com edited /business-models (+789) "fix dfn, not a stub, clean up this page a bit, move some hypotheticals to brainstorming, make top section more clear about being for real world examples" (view diff)
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bengo kylewm, about the 99% thing. ignore that row. The '-corrected' one is the pass after we learned from their support team that we hadn't trained it right or something.
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kylewm bengo: still, 68% false positives? like 2/3 of messages marked spam were not spam?
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kylewm sorry, 65
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bengo From this internal report: "The false positive rate, defined as the fraction of time that vendor incorrectly classified a comment as spam over the total number of such spam classifications."
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bengo So yeah
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bengo Where our own determination of whether something was spam was whether real moderators (customers of ours) had actually moderated the thing as spam
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tantek what is Bridgy Publish
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bengo Actually, from the report: "spam and hidden are those comments that were either explicitly banned by the moderators, or else classified as spam by <other-vendor>, with moderators taking no further action. Those comments are labeled with no, and are considered spam."
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Bridgy Publish" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Bridgy+Publish&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428627130718
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tantek congrats on the launch of Convoy benwerd!
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tantek adding now as a real world business model (assuming you've already collected at least some monies :) )
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kylewm benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 71 karma
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benwerd Thank you!
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tantek wow just saw this: "respectful software"
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tantek benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 72 karma
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tantek from https://withknown.com/team/
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tantek that's a great phrase
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benwerd http://benwerd.com/2013/05/24/respectful-software/
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tantek.com edited /business-models (+293) "POSSE as a service, Convoy paid, Bridgy Publish free" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd, making sure I got this right: https://indiewebcamp.com/business-models#POSSE_as_a_service
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benwerd tantek: yes sir
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benwerd (for now! we have plans!)
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pdurbin secret plans and clever tricks
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tantek for now I've segmented the business models page into real and brainstorming
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loqi.me created /OuiShare (+172) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by benwerd" (view diff)
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tantek mixed into the real world section however are business models both for indieweb sites themselves to make money
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tantek and for selling tools/services *to* indieweb sites to make money
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tantek would it make sense to separate those?
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tantek because it seems like two very different sets of people
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tantek "I have an indieweb site and I want to make money with it"
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tantek "I want to make money selling services to folks that want indieweb sites"
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benwerd also "I want to make money by helping people make money from their indieweb sites"
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benwerd there are a few iterations
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tantek benwerd that seems to fall into category 2
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benwerd I think probably yes
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tantek just wondering if this "selling shovels" vs. "selling mined gold" distinction is useful or not
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bret crap huffduff is fast: 50.76MiB/s
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bret err huffduff-video
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tantek benwerd++ shipping Convoy > going to IIW
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Loqi benwerd has 73 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, btw tantek, regarding this having to do with caching nicknames... yes and no
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ben_thatmustbeme 'this' meaning php-contacts
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: just trying to guess at the use-cases for the plumbing you were talking about ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme well, i'm going to try to store all data from h-cards that i process when i mention them
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ben_thatmustbeme so I can start building up contacts
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tantek that sounds like a nicknames cache
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ben_thatmustbeme to start, yes, it will be, but I plan to backfill it with dumps of contact lists from my email programs, google, phone, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme and other sites, facebook, twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme own your own contacts management
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ben_thatmustbeme then hold my contact list in a webapp that i can visit from my phone (preferrably cache to my phone)
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ben_thatmustbeme what would be really cool, is if i tag/mention someone on a post, it automatically knows to syndicate to their silo of choice
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acegiak Oh, that's kind of similar to what I do
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acegiak In my wordpress blogroll links I store a json object in the notes field
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acegiak so when I type @tantek in my blog it displays as @t on twitter, a tumblr hilight on tumblr if the person has a tumblr, otherwise just a link to tantek.com and displays a link to tantek.com and sends a webmention on my core site.
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tantek acegiak: neat!
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bengo https://npm.im/indieweb
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bengo Minimal possible thing that advertises itself as indie but at least does more than https://npm.im/indie
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bengo (Indie.js)
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bengo I'll get https://github.com/gobengo/bengo.is using `indie` later this week, then evolve them both from there
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bengo errr `indieweb`
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tantek what is indie.js?
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Loqi Indie.js is an open-source IndieWeb project that was officially started on July 18th, 2014 but has powered mowens.com since July 8th, 2014 https://indiewebcamp.com/indie.js
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tantek bengo background ^^^
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kylewm huh, one commit nine months ago "Securing the indie namespace"
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kylewm that does look bad
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tantek which repo?
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kylewm https://github.com/mko/Indie.js
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GWG acegiak: Yes. I wanted you to give me an opinion on my latest attempt to make posting bookmarks/likes easier.
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: acegiak: syndicationt mentions reminds me of https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/318
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snarfed s/syndicationt/syndicating/
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Loqi snarfed meant to say: ben_thatmustbeme: acegiak: syndicating mentions reminds me of https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/318
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KevinMarks Take a look at @LittleMxSurly's Tweet: https://twitter.com/LittleMxSurly/status/586357802995736576?s=09
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@LittleMxSurly @LynnMagic a mail server is like a web server that will leave your soul a crushed and destroyed husk (twitter.com/_/status/586357802995736576)
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tantek kylewm: hmm - that's odd because mko did have a lot working on his site
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tantek KevinMarks: sounds about right
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GWG Slowed down a bit.
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kylewm GWG: how's the bookmarking going?
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GWG Kylewm, I am still where I was. I have a way to post bookmarks without going into the full post ui, but need to figure out what is next
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GWG kylewm: Any advice?
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tantek GWG, I think aaronpk has a good simple bookmarking UI that he uses
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acegiak GWG: sure, what am I looking at?
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kylewm GWG: aaronpk uses quill.p3k.io/bookmark
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kylewm bookmarklet -> quill -> micropub -> site
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tantek what is create?
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Loqi create in the context of the indieweb refers to the act of and UI for creating a new post, in its simplest form, a new note https://indiewebcamp.com/create
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GWG acegiak: In the github version of Post Kinds, you can now post a bookmark, like, or favorite by adding a query string to the website URL.
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tantek.com edited /create (+308) "/* Aaron Parecki */ quill bookmark" (view diff)
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GWG https://gist.github.com/dshanske/8d8f96da000eff0f271a
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GWG This seems to work.
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acegiak GWG: I'm already using https://github.com/acegiak/prepopPost to do a similar thing?
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GWG acegiak: There is no form in this case. It just goes straight in and creates the post
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acegiak oh ok neat
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tantek GWG - even better
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GWG acegiak: That is what I want to iterate on. If I like or bookmark something, just run a bookmarklet and it creates the post.
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GWG Only if I get to commenting or replying do I need more and I can always open the post editor for that, or go with a simple popup form
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GWG I know snarfed would probably say Press This does that, but it isn't customizable.
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GWG acegiak: That's why I wanted feedback. This would add a level of seamless sharing to Post Kinds I want to get to.
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KevinMarks Session notes from today http://digitalidcoach.com/2015/04/iiwxx-indie-web-camp/
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acegiak GWG: I'll have a look when I get home this evening then
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KevinMarks And yesterday http://iiw.idcommons.net/IndieWeb_Principles_%26_Protocols_to_OWN_YOUR_IDENTITY
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GWG As a general question, is anyone using a bookmarklet or similar to send URLs into their site as posts of type like/favorite/bookmark what have you without a posting UI?
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aaronpk Yes, if your site supports MicroPub you can try it at https://quill.p3k.io/favorite
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GWG aaronpk: I haven't gotten around to teaching the Micropub plugin about my Post Kinds plugin.
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Aaronpk I was showing your various posting tools today at iiw
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aaronpk Sweet!
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aaronpk Looking forward to catching up on the notes!
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KevinMarks With known, woodwind, ownyourgram, indieauth and bridgy there is a lot to show
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KevinMarks Woodwind is neat as a Twitter like UI that actually posts to 2 websites at once
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KevinMarks Illustrates webmention and micropub together
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (-11) "/* Where */ dedup 1st floor" (view diff)
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tantek hah - I'm the first indie rsvp to the next HWC SF: https://kylewm.com/2015/04/homebrew-website-club-1 AHEM KevinMarks benwerd ;)
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aaronpk Pretty sweet we have so much of this working now!
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GWG aaronpk: What does that mean is coming next, I wonder?
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aaronpk Better and more versions of everything I hope
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tantek Easier Better Faster
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aaronpk Stronger
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tantek :)
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GWG aaronpk: I look forward to seeing it then.
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tantek warning, another Bridgy invitation flood coming soon
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aaronpk I still have to add realtime updates to monocle
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aaronpk I'm debating whether to collapse them into a "[4] new" line like Twitter does, where you click that to show the new ones
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tantek that seems like more work
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aaronpk A little more JS, I'd do it all client side to make it easy
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aaronpk Not sure it's worth it tho
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aaronpk I have to figure out how to proxy websockets through nginx tho, cause I want to run it on the same port because too many firewalls block other ports
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kylewm nginx makes it very easy
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10204181889683168 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#523759551124 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10100872381217915 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10153164764866874 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10204380195759358 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10100195542842651 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#976754404223 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152994481962071 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10205826581081361 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10101208595446832 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10155084317835006 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10153621239451029 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10100455192207968 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10154011264405352 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/807045706055031/10203576731879737 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10153708389652785 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk kylewm: did/can you document that on /nginx?
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GWG aaronpk: It's a simple thing. I did it in my hotel room in Cambridge last month.
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10101464248810443 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] Liane Baskin RSVPed maybe to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152906295445141)
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152937939711815 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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kylewm aaronpk: I want to have, but I didn't. will now :)
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152359525811788 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10104605333556450 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10102221688525556 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10153065553565844 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10155081091385570 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10153082631379783 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10151995608396363 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10155171288215311 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152740287428542 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10104101827895836 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152526950826879 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152665899835197 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10202896394024790 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10153975373285082 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152471100992434 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk Thx!
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Loqi [bridgy] PJ Khalil RSVPed maybe to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152384475429314)
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10102916401005834 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10202773673198905 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#424598261021513 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152581034711581 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10100883860907847 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#1035661493117024 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152697634127897 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10203643450182791 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10100374017008782 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#837798162932873 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152544753072027 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10155125999765501 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10103840847068493 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10153176130486869 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/807045706055031/10205396431407514 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/807045706055031/10153069817289711 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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kylewm.com edited /Nginx (+794) "/* Proxy WebSockets */" (view diff)
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kylewm did these invite storms ever have names attached to them?
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kylewm wondering if that's a regression
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aaronpk I can't remember if the invites did or not
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10100706053205521 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] Andi Galpern RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#499657186827699)
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Loqi [bridgy] Ariel Waldman RSVPed no to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10154047746960640)
KevinMarks_, LauraJ, lukebrooker, tantek and KevinMarks__ joined the channel
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Loqi [bridgy] Nima Dilmaghani RSVPed maybe to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10152759380008640)
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tommorris.org edited /Prowl (+31) "see also: [[Pushover]]" (view diff)
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Loqi [bridgy] Leah Culver RSVPed maybe to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10105661023300860)
renoirb, chalettu, friedcell, snarfed, verdi_, Rev_Illo, adactio, KevinMarks__, KevinMarks_ and tilgovi joined the channel
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@adambloom interesting key messages/benefits with http:///mobileanalytics/ for iOS, Android, HTML5, Javascript #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/586552549722816512)
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@erinjo I'm looking forward to talking to students at @MinervaSchools today about personal websites, @withknown, Domain of One's Own, and #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/586557242972864512)
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kylewm wondering if that's a regression
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kylewm ignore sorry
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aaronpk up-arrow-enter?
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@RikMende If you didn't checked #indieweb you should definitely have a closer look to this rising movement ! http://www.rmendes.net/2015/if-you-didnt-checked-indieweb-you-should-definitely-have-a (twitter.com/_/status/586559322873729024)
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kylewm aaronpk: you know it
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@javascriptd RT @adambloom: interesting key messages/benefits with http:///mobileanalytics/ for iOS, Android, HTML5, Javascript #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/586559675400761344)
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@RikMende #indieweb on #android - i need to figure out how to put this in place here and use #indieweb from my mobile ! http://www.rmendes.net/2015/indieweb-on-android---i-need-to-figure-out-how (twitter.com/_/status/586561630256963584)
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Loqi [bridgy] Darius Dunlap RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10155145068360183)
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tantek.com edited /Movable_Type (+2) "g" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /MT (+25) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /PW (+44) "prompted by gRegor` and dfn added by gRegor`" (view diff)
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gRegor` Did something change recently with wiki login? I have the "Remember my login on this browser (for a maximum of 180 days)" preference checked so haven't had to log in in ages, but this last week I have to log in each day.
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next" (view diff)
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aaronpk gRegor`: if you visit https you should be always logged in
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+0) "/* Upcoming */ next" (view diff)
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gRegor` I've logged in to both
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gRegor` Let me log out and try again
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Loqi [mention] hmans.io posted 'Als jemand, der gerne auf seiner eigenen Seite publiziert, sich für das IndieWeb interessiert und versucht, auch in Anderen dieses Interesse...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://hmans.io/zre039)
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hmans That's right, Loqi
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Loqi woot!
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tantek.com edited /WP (+41) "expand disambig dfn to include options inline." (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+997) "archive hwc, update 4/04 day 2016" (view diff)
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gRegor` Maybe it's that it's redirecting me to http://indiewebcamp.com after login on https?
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@hmans Womöglich gehe ich nur zu "nebenan", um @diplix zu fragen, wieso http://wirres.net weder h-card noch h-entry noch webmention macht. (twitter.com/_/status/586584913895362561)
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tantek happy 410 day (for those that use ISO 8601 dates or US style dates)
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tantek is there a point to distinguishing sites that are GONE from NOT FOUND?
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snarfed tantek: sites? not pages?
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snarfed is this for /site_deaths ?
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tantek snarfed: 410 ~= 4/10 (today)
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snarfed yes, i know. :P i was replying to your second msg
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tantek yes, sites vs. pages. 410 permalinks take a bit more explicit work, and thus we can (and do) use that to mean DELETED whereas a whole site that 410s means something pretty different
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tantek in other post type (implied or otherwise) news, I just wrote / published a note this morning, then edited it to add one phone, then another, then another.
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tantek s/phone/photo
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Loqi tantek meant to say: in other post type (implied or otherwise) news, I just wrote / published a note this morning, then edited it to add one photo, then another, then another.
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tantek one could say it went from a note post to a photo post to a collection (gallery) post
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snarfed re 410s, i expect that whole sites returning either 404 or 410 for the long term are very very uncommon
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snarfed so i wouldn't personally think too hard about them
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tantek yeah
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tantek thinking more about https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_note_with_photos_to_Twitter especially as I publish more notes with auto-embedded photos
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tantek and given this experience of editing a post repeatedly over a several minutes time period, perhaps even thinking about "slow POSSE"
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tantek like POSSEing a note 15 minutes or an hour after I've published / PuSHed it to my own site
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tantek (when 99.99% of all typical edits are done)
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tantek has anyone else thought about deliberately doing a "slow POSSE" for that or other reasons?
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snarfed yup, i do that sometimes
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snarfed i don't usually have a crisp reason for it, but yours makes sense
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tantek right, I wanted to come up with some real world use cases before documenting it
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tantek being ok with a "slow POSSE" also seems complementary to "calm computing" design
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tantek it's less stressful (more calm) if you know you're free to undo/edit a post on your own site as you wish before it gets snapshotted on a silo POSSE post
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gRegor` Though readers may still have a copy.
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gRegor` I suppose that's a different distinction, though, whether it's a slow post to your public feed as well.
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tantek gRegor`: readers are likely to be getting it via PuSH, and thus all updates/edits via PuSH too
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tantek however, given that legacy feed readers typically LACK PuSH implementation, perhaps legacy feed files are also a place for "slow syndication"
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gRegor` I noticed a 410 of kylewm's yesterdan in Woodwind.
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tantek what % of h-feed consuming readers implement PuSH?
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tantek is it 100%?
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gRegor` yesterdan, heh
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gRegor` And what percent update immediately via PuSH as well
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tantek that's something we should test - how fast a PuSH update propagates to a reader
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gRegor` Should readers bump updated posts back to the top? Or otherwise indicate a post has been updated?
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aaronpk kylewm and cweiske have been testing that
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tantek great reader UI questions!
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ben_thatmustbeme i would say notify
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ben_thatmustbeme i would never want to just have my view jump
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:fastmail-spam-problem-2015-04-10.png "Fastmail's spam detection is not good enough"
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tantek existing (sort of) example - gmail bumps threads to the top and rebolds them when they get "updates" (replies/comments)
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme: By notify, do you mean a separate area from the stream of posts?
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tantek (not saying that email/gmail is a good place to go for UI - just to be clear)
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tantek (that was merely a factual prior art contribution)
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor`: some sort of overlay or separate area. Twitter use "X new posts" or something like that at the top
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gRegor` I think I would like it to bump up and somehow indicate it's updated.
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ben_thatmustbeme G+ does the same but as an overlay
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tantek gRegor`, ben_thatmustbeme re: "separate area", Facebook has the "globe" icon which gets a red number when things "change" that you've indicated interest in.
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gRegor` This also gets into tracking read state, which I understand is tricky
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tantek when you click on it, it drops down a list of "Notifications" (literally)
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ben_thatmustbeme easiest way to see the change UI on twitter, search of a popular hashtag
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, but thats a different part, they have 2 layers. there is your stream and then things you indicate as more interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme they have a different UI for the different lists
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kylewm.com created /Fastmail (+639) "Created page with "'''<dfn>FastMail</dfn>''' is a popular web-based paid email service launched in 1999. It was owned by Opera from 2010 to 2013, when the original developers bought the service bac..."" (view diff)
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tantek however that is what FB calls "Notifications"
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ben_thatmustbeme FB is a difficult example as you can never see the raw stream, it randomly picks things for you to see or not
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tantek ok Twitter then
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm sure not "Random"
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ben_thatmustbeme twitter is a good example
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme: The Twitter UI you're describing does put new items at the top (doesn't have concept of "updated" items of course), it just requires an interaction to show them.
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tantek yet Twitter is a bad example because it doesn't do updates
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, i misunderstood
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm
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ben_thatmustbeme G+ just does it as a notification i think (if you had commented on it)
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gRegor` I kind of like that "X new tweets" notification on Twitter, especially when viewing lists.
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gRegor` Doesn't require a read state on each item in the stream, just the state of when you last refreshed the stream.
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tantek really? I find it a pointless number (X)
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gRegor` I like it as a placeholder. "I've read what I want to read up to this point. Now there's new things."
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gRegor` I don't care about the count, though.
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tantek but do you care if what you've read has changed?
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ben_thatmustbeme G+ on mobile just informs that there are new posts
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't give a count
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gRegor` The main list I use is a small subset, so doesn't update often. On the main stream it's pointless to me.
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't know that any site does anything for updates to something you have just read
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ben_thatmustbeme unless you specify some preference to it
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tantek right, main stream update indicators are kind of pointless - they're always red
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kylewm.com moved /Fastmail to /FastMail
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tantek it's like how the G+ red # is always > 0 when I go to Google.com (and really have no desire to know anything about G+ state)
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kylewm.com created /fastmail (+21) "Redirected page to [[FastMail]]" (view diff)
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tantek it's just noise in the UI
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@benwerd Lesson: much easier for students to install software into a subdirectory than into the root of their (sub)domain. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/586613577366122496)
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@mathewi And thanks to the IndieWeb plugins I've installed, I can pull in comments from other platforms like Twitter and FB: http://www.mathewingram.com/work/2015/04/10/buzzfeed-isnt-doing-itself-any-favors-on-the-credibility-front/ (twitter.com/_/status/586613591551410176)
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@Valleshopping RT @mathewi: And thanks to the IndieWeb plugins I've installed, I can pull in comments from other platforms like Twitter and FB: http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/586613634039734272)
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tantek agreed with installing sw into a subdomain, even if it is designed to handle the home page
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tantek kylewm++ just noticed your venue permalinks, including their "feed" of references - very cool https://kylewm.com/venues/mozilla-sf-san-francisco-california
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Loqi kylewm has 152 karma
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tantek what is a venue
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Loqi A venue is a named location or address/geo that is typically used for checkins https://indiewebcamp.com/venue
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tantek.com edited /venue (+430) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add Kyle Mahan" (view diff)
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tantek !tell kylewm how long have you been creating venue permalinks? Can you add details / permalinks (e.g. first venue you created on your site) to https://indiewebcamp.com/venue#Kyle_Mahan ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:redwind-check-prompt-2015-04-10.png]]""
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kylewm.com edited /venue (+341) "/* Kyle Mahan */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ reading scrollback
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KevinMarks_ I do "slow POSSE" with longer posts
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KevinMarks_ kevinmarks.com first, then after a chance to edit a bit, epeus.blogspot.com and medium
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bret i love the visual design of http://rauchg.com/2014/7-principles-of-rich-web-applications/
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kylewm huh, Google Maps on my laptop knows where I am very accurately; navigator.geolocation is off by a couple of miles
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 20 minutes ago: how long have you been creating venue permalinks? Can you add details / permalinks (e.g. first venue you created on your site) to https://indiewebcamp.com/venue#Kyle_Mahan ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-10/line/1428695198156
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@mathewi @thDigitalReader https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress (twitter.com/_/status/586622520129892353)
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KevinMarks_ google maps may be using your phone location
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Loqi [bridgy] Nate Hoffelder replied '@mathewi Thank you.' to a tweet https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress (https://twitter.com/thDigitalReader/status/586622757691076608)
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bret o/
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tantek bret - the contents of that rauchg article are quite good too
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bret yeaaaa inspiring
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tantek it addresses so many of the common JS SPA anti-patterns
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bret i lost it months ago, but aparently I followed the author on twitter and I found it again
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bret tantek: whats a quick way to get the ordinal date?
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bret lol
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bret its 100
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@HongPong good explanation of content silos http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and why you need #indieweb in the long run instead. POSSE publish once, syndicate.. (twitter.com/_/status/586635969052467200)
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bret tantek: ok this should be good to go, unless you see any other issues: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/pull/20
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bret bbl meeting time
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KevinMarks_ friendfeed just died
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KevinMarks_ https://www.dropbox.com/s/jw971yqt4ub23wd/Screenshot%202015-04-10%2017.14.24.png?dl=0
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Loqi [mention] Torsten Hartmann commented 'Als jemand, der gerne bloggt und seine eigene Seite zum Publizieren nutzt, sich für das IndieWeb interessiert und versucht, auch in Anderen ...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://pants.morgvom.org/vna679)
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@eMERGENetwork_ RT @CaseofStripes: Data to the People! #ownyourdata @mickcorrell @eMERGENetwork_ The Healing Power of Your Own Medical Records http://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/586640301164470272)
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tantek KevinMarks - worth blogging
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KevinMarks_ friendfeed.com now redirects to their blog
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tantek and permalinks?
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KevinMarks_ yes, them too. it's opensocial style
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tantek wow. do we need taxonomy for all the ways companies/orgs kill sites?
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tantek Fifty ways to 404 your website
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gRegor` Heh, redirecting everything to blog.friendfeed.com breaks all their image assets too.
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gRegor` So the blog doesn't even have the logo
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gRegor` Oh, it's Blogger. Interesting.
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tantek KevinMarks: did you ask Steve Gilmor what he's going to do now that Friendfeed is TOTALLY gone? Since they were using that for "chat" for GG
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tantek what is friendfeed
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "friendfeed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=friendfeed&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-10%2Fline%2F1428702827430
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tantek hmm I wonder if we lost citations for the first like UI
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tantek what is like
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Loqi like is a popular webaction button and in some cases post type on various silos such as Facebook and Instagram (uses a heart ♥) https://indiewebcamp.com/like
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tantek huh they changed the image link
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tantek.com edited /like (+87) "/* Friendfeed */ update image link" (view diff)
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tantek no actual (perma)links to FF posts
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tantek from enwp.org/FriendFeed "Bloggers writing about FriendFeed said that this service addresses the shortcomings of social media services which exclusively facilitate tracking of their own members' social media activities on that particular social media service, whereas FriendFeed provided the facility to track these activities (such as posting on [[blogs]], [[Twitter]], and [[Flickr]]) across a broad range of different soci
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tantek networks."
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tantek sound familiary? ***track these activities (such as posting on [[blogs]], [[Twitter]], and [[Flickr]]) across a broad range of different social networks.***
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tantek s/familiary/familiar
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Loqi tantek meant to say: sound familiar? ***track these activities (such as posting on [[blogs]], [[Twitter]], and [[Flickr]]) across a broad range of different social networks.***
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Loqi [mention] Ashton McAllan reshared a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/why (http://acegiak.net/2015/04/11/stayathomewriterusing-tumblr-is-like-renting-an-apartment-and-continually-asking-the-landlord-to/)
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@atomicules Further #indieweb work: Now have basis of photo syndication to flickr working. Likely to be months until I get to put into practice though. (twitter.com/_/status/586670865774817282)
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@kevinmarks “tl;DR: Server rendering is not about SEO, it’s about performance.” @rauchg http://rauchg.com/2014/7-principles-of-rich-web-applications/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/586675937606897664)
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