#indiewebcamp 2015-04-09

2015-04-09 UTC
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aaronpk Ping
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Loqi aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 3 hours, 52 minutes ago: switchboard require people to register to use it? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-08/line/1428524352883
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Loqi pong
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aaronpk cweiske: no, what would give you that impression? I thought the docs made it clear
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KartikPrabhu last HWC Chi online
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zachdonovan hi Loqi
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bear for Wordpress users - http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/04/as-many-as-1-million-sites-imperiled-by-dangerous-bug-in-wordpress-plugin/
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kylewm hello from the Creamery
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GWG Hello, all.
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GWG bear: Good news, I don't use that plugin.
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acegiak Got another email from google today telling me about a phishing page hidden away amongst my wordpress system files
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tantek greetings from SF!
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Loqi tantek: rhiaro left you a message 2 hours, 59 minutes ago: I only do post types for likes, shares and reposts, I already said I'm definitely against types based on content - this is more types based on intent. But im rethinking now anyway http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-08/line/1428532887180
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tantek we are The Creamery
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tantek about 7 of us
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acegiak Is the creamery a hivemind?
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GWG acegiak: That's nice of hem
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tantek it's a cafe
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acegiak GWG: yeah. it's just annoying that I have no idea where the intrusion point is
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GWG acegiak: Keep me posted. The rumors are WordPress is under attack.
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tantek yikes
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tantek like the .com ?
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acegiak GWG: I've had multiple intrusions before. I'm so bad at security and cars and it wears me out
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tantek or is there a new WordPress zeroday?
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acegiak tantek: a popular plugin allows for cross site scripting is the big headline atm
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tantek URL?
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tantek checks logs
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acegiak bear linked to http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/04/as-many-as-1-million-sites-imperiled-by-dangerous-bug-in-wordpress-plugin/ a minute ago
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rascul there was something recently about super cache
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acegiak yeah that's the culprit
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acegiak but not the problem in my case
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acegiak for me it was files inserted into my wordpress admin css directory
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: if you want to have astatic site you can use what you want then use @aaronpk's spiderpig to make a static version (twitter.com/_/status/585982929572077568)
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tantek acegiak in /wp_admin/... ?
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acegiak tantek: yeah
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tantek can you share the names of the inserted files?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: spiderpig is at https://github.com/esripdx/spiderpig and will staticise any site (twitter.com/_/status/585983436244045824)
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acegiak /wp-admin/css/colors/midnight/index.htm was the index file
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acegiak things like aol.php gmail.php etc along side it
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acegiak the midnight directory normally just houses css files for one of the admin themes
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tantek good to document at least some coarse detection methods like that
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acegiak but I've seen similar things on my server before
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tantek i.e. if you have such files, something has gone wrong
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acegiak yeah
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: personal website update: I am fed up with maintaining all the little api links - twitter, Facebook etc (twitter.com/_/status/585984754488647681)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: I built something new that lets me use the with known syndication system with my personal Known site (twitter.com/_/status/585984869672558593)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: twitter, Facebook, linked in etc make you build an app for each domain - what I've built lets you have one app on Known (twitter.com/_/status/585985322590273536)
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tantek what is wordpress security?
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Loqi One of the most important things for new users to do is to properly secure their Wordpress installation https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress_Security
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @webrecorder_io: I work in the fired of web archiving and wonder if it can be helpful to what you are doing (twitter.com/_/status/585986161212055553)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @webrecorder_io: I used to work on internet archive's wayback machine, now I have webrecorder.io (twitter.com/_/status/585986376732114944)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @webrecorder_io: it is a high fidelity archive of what you are browsing and caches client side (twitter.com/_/status/585986487709204481)
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tantek.com edited /WordPress_Security (+276) "Plugin Vulnerabilities - WP-Super-Cache zeroday XSS" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @webrecorder_io: this could be useful to archive what you read (twitter.com/_/status/585987117437886465)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @webrecorder_io: just by loading a url it can archive it. (twitter.com/_/status/585987198710898688)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: this could be useful for caching copies of things you link to as you post - so you get a stashed copy of what you saw (twitter.com/_/status/585987421864665088)
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tantek.com edited /WordPress_Security (+394) "Forensics / wordpress admin css extra files" (view diff)
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tantek acegiak: see and feel free to edit / add to: https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress_Security#Plugin_Vulnerabilities
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@BillSeitz RT @kevinmarks: An idea for expanding micropub to hosted blogs, written up by @schnarfed https://snarfed.org/micropub-for-hosted-blogs #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/585987999457943554)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: there was a wordpress 0-day attack today - millions of websites running wp-supercache has an css exploit (twitter.com/_/status/585988022266634240)
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tantek XSS not CSS. sheesh
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: there was a wordpress 0-day attack today - millions of websites running wp-supercache has an XSS exploit (twitter.com/_/status/585988167737696256)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @LaurenJBuchman: is this an example of everyone running the same thing and it being a widespread problem (twitter.com/_/status/585988450945540097)
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@RegIndependentV RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: there was a wordpress 0-day attack today - millions of websites running wp-supercache has an XSS exploit (twitter.com/_/status/585988464451133440)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: yes this is the monoculture problem (twitter.com/_/status/585988495237328896)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: @benward discovered that he had a cache of #microformats t-shirts - I want to give one to @benwerd and @kylewmahan as thanks (twitter.com/_/status/585988693627953152)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: ben coded an open source CMS called idno which is now Known at https://withknown.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/585988950696800256)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: @warrenellis recommended @withknown as part of his stack because he didn't have to change his other tools (twitter.com/_/status/585989251008962560)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: @kylewmahan has built redwind, woodwind his reader and now brid.gy with @schnarfed (twitter.com/_/status/585989431041077249)
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tantek and has contributed to mf2py
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@CaseofStripes Data to the People! #ownyourdata @mickcorrell @eMERGENetwork_ The Healing Power of Your Own Medical Records http://www.nytimes.com (twitter.com/_/status/585989675891957760)
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tantek wat
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tantek not claiming that ownyourdata will help you heal thyself
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @joshuajuran: I'm working on free mount which is a hybrid file access and now a language called V (twitter.com/_/status/585989887087763456)
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GWG tantek: That would be a great claim though
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tantek GWG, ownyourpowercrystals
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tantek KevinMarks has an update from IIW
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tantek the 20th one
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tantek had a great time getting people up & running on IndieWeb sites
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tantek there was also the usual IIW nonsense, bitcoin will solve everything et.c
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GWG Why will bitcoin solve everything?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: I've been at #iiw this week and it was nice to demo https://withknown.com/ & http://reader.kylewm.com and have it work (twitter.com/_/status/585992162707374080)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: and have the #iiw people understand what we were getting at with indieweb protocols (twitter.com/_/status/585992240394346496)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I have now made my likes on my site POSSE to twitter (twitter.com/_/status/585992311739437056)
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GWG "Why should you post bookmark posts? Good question. People seem to have reasons for doing so. (please feel free to replace this rhetorical question with actual reasoning)" - I need help with this.
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tantek using Bridgy Publish
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tantek that's from /bookmark#Why
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: twitter now has comments on tweets by creating a link to a tweet and displaying the tweet (twitter.com/_/status/585992539376898048)
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GWG tantek: I know. I'm curious what people's reasons are.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: @rhiaro got micro pub working on her own site and then got likes, reposts and bookmarks working in a few days (twitter.com/_/status/585992722613456896)
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@Shoq RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @benwerd: @rhiaro got micro pub working on her own site and then got likes, reposts and bookmarks working in a fe… (twitter.com/_/status/585992770466242560)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: @rhiaro is the tenth server codebase that implements micro pub, which is a good number (twitter.com/_/status/585992920387432448)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: also, @Schnarfed wrote a post explaining how we could bridge micro pub to other hosts https://snarfed.org/micropub-for-hosted-blogs (twitter.com/_/status/585994045828259841)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2015-098-hwc-sf.jpg]]""
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-04-08-homebrew-website-club (+36) "/* Photos */ SF" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks notes from tonights Homebrew Website Club on my own site: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-04-08.html #indieweb #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/585997363497402368)
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:2015-098-hwc-sf.jpg]]"" (view diff)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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GWG Trying to use snarfed's micropub code to create a Twitter like intent system to help in my own my bookmarks plan.
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@kevinmarks @LeaVerou view source on this, and note that the RSVPs were sent to it with webmentions https://kylewm.com/2015/04/homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/586022644220166144)
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20150409-060442.gif "Uploaded via email by exclusive design printers <exclusivedesignprinte*@*ail.com>"
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KartikPrabhu1 what's that upload?
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KartikPrabhu maybe Loqi should link to uploads page too
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aaronpk omg spam
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aaronparecki.com deleted /File:20150409-060442.gif "Spam"
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GWG !tell acegiak Are you up for testing something for me and giving some feedback?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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hmans Good morning, indieweb
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cweiske hiho
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek, benwerd: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1790
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak GWG: as long as it won't break things, sure!
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 hour, 1 minute ago: Are you up for testing something for me and giving some feedback? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-08/line/1428561108622
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cweiske !tell aaronpk, currently I can use switchboard to run a DOS attack on a given URL by trying to subscribe to it many times. how can we prevent that?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@rhiaro Current solutions: granular privacy controls - too cumbersome #lovelace2015 #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/586120513275174912)
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@rhiaro ... But there's no universal definition, so you never know what you're going to get when you sign up for something (needs moar #ownyourdata) (twitter.com/_/status/586121032676827136)
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@voxpelli @poetica Some on Jekyll / GitHub Pages, some on custom Node.js applications + in the future hopefully some through IndieWeb Micropub as well (twitter.com/_/status/586130269968695296)
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aaronpk cweiske: hmm
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Loqi aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 3 hours, 30 minutes ago: I can use switchboard to run a DOS attack on a given URL by trying to subscribe to it many times. how can we prevent that? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428569014222
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aaronpk I suppose I could rate limit how often I ping any external URL, even limiting to once per second would be enough
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aaronpk but enabling a DOS attack isn't that great a worry compared to enabling a DDOS attack
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cweiske it's a reflected attack
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cweiske which makes it worse IMO
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cweiske also, I could make switchboard fetch my URL which simply spams you with gigabytes of HTTP body content
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cweiske but you do HEAD requests
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cweiske so I'd have to generate gigabytes of headres
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aaronpk you can already send me gigabytes of POST request to any URL
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cweiske hm .right
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cweiske btw, I've implemented exponential backoff for sending out notifications
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aaronpk here's an interesting attack, taking advantage of light pings, or assuming some/all subscribers would re-fetch the original URL despite receiving a fat ping:
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aaronpk 1) set up a legitimate feed as a publisher
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aaronpk 2) wait for lots of subscribers to subscribe
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Loqi !calc 2) wait for lots of subscribers to subscribe
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aaronpk 3) make your feed URL a 301 redirect to the victim's website
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aaronpk 4) send a publish ping to your hub
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cweiske yep. that's why push requires fat pings
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@elfpavlik @MyCozyCloud @nitot would you like to join @SocialWebWG F2F in Paris May 4-5th? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04 #ownyourdata #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/586142581307940864)
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aaronpk exponential backoff when notifications fail?
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cweiske yep
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cweiske when the subscriber is down
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cweiske or whatever
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk yeah I did that too
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aaronpk starting with 15 seconds, doubling each failure
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aaronpk gives up after 8 tries
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cweiske i've hard-coded a list of times
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cweiske http://git.cweiske.de/phubb.git/blob/HEAD:/src/phubb/Task/NotifySubscriber.php#l261
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aaronpk my hard-coded list is 15, 30, 60, 120, 240, 480, 960, 1920 seconds
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cweiske phubb now also uses last-modified, etag and a hash on the content to determine if the content changes. if it didn't change, it doesn't sent notifications out
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aaronpk Nice! I only check a hash of the content right now
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GWG Good morning
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GWG acegiak: I don't think it will break anything.
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GWG acegiak: In the Github version of Post Kinds, I've added a new feature I'm testing.
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@TessClare78 Looking for feedback on potential book covers for "The Bad Specimens" #vote #design #book #indieauthor http://www.designcrowd.com/vote/indieauthorneedsabookcovervotingpoll (twitter.com/_/status/586183108849840128)
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@kevinmarks @EightBitPony it turns feeds into web pages with indieweb-friendly microformats. It puts podcast audio/video inline in html5 players (twitter.com/_/status/586185825915834369)
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek any reason your contact page isn't written as an h-card?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegor` Morning, indieweb
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Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message on 4/8 at 3:24pm: is http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-08/line/1428527064928 worth adding to /Tumblr#Criticism ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-08/line/1428531862963
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@heisenbelfie e a epoca que nem rt existia http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/06/indieweb/pictures/twitter-ui-old.png (twitter.com/_/status/586202663219552256)
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GWG Anyone around have a reply endpoint?
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david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (+36) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /Post_Kinds_Plugin (+11) "/* Technical */" (view diff)
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kylewm GWG: what's a reply endpoint?
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GWG Configuration action URLs
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GWG Configurable action URLs, excuse me
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GWG Web action handlers.
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GWG Etc.
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kylewm ah yeah, like https://kylewm.com/new/reply?url=
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kylewm also just added https://quill.p3k.io/new?reply=abcd
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GWG Yes. I'm working on those.
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GWG Trying to see how people are doing them
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GWG I liberally borrowed from snarfed's micropub code which liberally borrowed from pfefferle's webmention code
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GWG I'm trying for a simple alternative to micropub when appropriate.
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GWG So this just requires you to be logged into your WordPress installation, as opposed to Indieauth
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rhiaro aaronpk: for me monocle shows all of your posts twice (only yours)
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kylewm rhiaro: you may be subscried to both http://aaronparecki.com and https://?
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rhiaro Oh, maybe
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rhiaro I'll check later
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rhiaro Apologies on advance aaronpk if this is my own fault
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gRegor` GWG: If you need to be logged into your WordPress, what's the advantage of micropub?
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gRegor` s/of/of using/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: GWG: If you need to be logged into your WordPress, what's the advantage of using micropub?
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GWG I'm not using micropub
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bengo I got distracted at work yesterday and missed HWC SF, but hope to come to the next one!
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bengo I freed up after 7:30 and went to a cloud beers meet up and ran into someone who knew about IndieWeb though. Alex: https://twitter.com/alexwilliams
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benwerd snarfed and kylewm: I have a quick question about bridgy integration. What's the best way to record auth state? We're getting a lot of complaints that the Bridgy page in Known settings doesn't reflect if you've connected or not
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Loqi benwerd: KartikPrabhu left you a message 11 hours, 20 minutes ago: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1790 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428563317937
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benwerd Is there somewhere we should be looking for this? No worries if not - we can just change the page style for now to make it look less like activation buttons
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snarfed benwerd: hmm, interesting q
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snarfed you can get partially there by fetching their bridgy user page and seeing if you get a 200 or a 404
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benwerd ah!
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snarfed that doesn't tell you if their access token has expired or not though (e.g. FB's 2 month limit)
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snarfed for that, an even uglier hack would be to look for either '<span class="glyphicon glyphicon-pause" …' or 'This account was disconnected' in the HTML for a 200
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benwerd OK. I'll experiment with that :)
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benwerd Thanks!
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snarfed and you could reasonably cache that state for days
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snarfed sure!
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snarfed also feel free to file an issue if you want a more API-like endpoint
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kylewm snarfed: hey another bridgy question, I have three comments that it tries to backfeed every time it polls
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kylewm from the logs it looks like it thinks the content changed
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kylewm is that familiar?
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snarfed kylewm: yeah it does do that now
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/9
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snarfed and toned down in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/374
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kylewm yeah but the content hasn't changed
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kylewm it just thinks it has every time
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snarfed hmm ok
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@hmans Diese latente Sorge, dass die Summary des einzigen Indieweb-Talks auf http://nebenan.hamburg nicht ironisch gemeint sein könnte (twitter.com/_/status/586236499894652930)
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snarfed it looks at a few fields beyond content: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/source.py#L528
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snarfed are you accepting the new wms each time?
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kylewm no, it never found the original
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snarfed i don't quite follow
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snarfed which silo?
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snarfed mind sending example links?
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kylewm https://www.brid.gy/facebook/12802152
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kylewm it tries to re-propagate those first three comments every time it polls
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snarfed ah
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kylewm it's not hurting anything
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snarfed moving to dm
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kylewm just odd
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@kevinmarks explaining webmention to #iiw http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-04-08.html (twitter.com/_/status/586238204229070849)
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@jdunck @kevinmarks do you have a BestOf indieweb list somewhere? I need to do some reading. :P (twitter.com/_/status/586240307173400576)
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@kylewmahan @jdunck lots here http://t.co/hd6lo2ZQHf; I particularly recommend https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog for a not-too-technical technical overview (twitter.com/_/status/586244555479064576)
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan commented '@jdunck lots here indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb; I particularly recommend kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog for a not-...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (https://kylewm.com/2015/04/jdunck-lots-here-http-indiewebcamp-com-posts-about)
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KartikPrabhu :D
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 90 karma
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GWG I'm trying to figure out if there is a security risk in letting posts be created on my site by a simple http://example.com/?intent=bookmark&url=http...
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Loqi [mention] http://digitalidcoach.com/2015/04/iiwxx-indie-web-camp/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://digitalidcoach.com/2015/04/iiwxx-indie-web-camp/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://digitalidcoach.com/2015/04/iiwxx-indie-web-camp/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/Quill (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://digitalidcoach.com/2015/04/iiwxx-indie-web-camp/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/PESOS (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://digitalidcoach.com/2015/04/iiwxx-indie-web-camp/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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ben_thatmustbeme (pingback) eh?
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ben_thatmustbeme quiet today
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm thinking of just removing permashort citations from my site
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ben_thatmustbeme hey tantek
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tantek good afternoon ben_thatmustbeme
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 12 hours, 36 minutes ago: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1790 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428563317937
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 4 hours, 28 minutes ago: any reason your contact page isn't written as an h-card? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428592614755
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bengo @GWG if what you want is for anyone to be able to add to your site, no security risk.
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme nice comic from Kartik
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tantek btw benwerd is at IIW today - any news?
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bengo If you want to curate/moderate what actually gets published, then you probably want unauthenticated 'bookmark requests' to go into a Curation Queue for you to approve
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benwerd kevinmarks is, I'm not in the end, sadly
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benwerd (still fighting my way through an immoveable product release)
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tantek benwerd - didn't make it down?
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tantek what is email?
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benwerd no, not this time
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Loqi Email is a decentralized, non-web messaging transport https://indiewebcamp.com/email
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bengo Also any time you're committing your server to doing CPU work on unauthenticated requests, you've got a complexity problem to reason about.
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bengo In what way is email non-web?
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bengo non-http?
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tantek non-URL
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tantek and mostly non-HTML
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tantek so, in all the ways
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tantek :P
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bengo nvm
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bengo Not web
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bengo URLs == web
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bengo email addresses != web.[2]
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bengo (geez read the wiki, bengo)
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bengo email supports HTML just great. It's the clients that ruin it all :)
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bengo Makes me so sad.
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bengo If I send an HTML email to a gmail user, they literally rewrite the entire thing to make it... worse
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bret !tell snarfed 500 errors on huffduff video
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tantek bengo - email supports presentational HTML - it doens't really do anything with the *hyper*text aspect of it - thus, non-web HTML
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek whoa - gmail rewrites HTML emails?!?
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snarfed bret: yeah, sorry, it's been unhappy
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Loqi snarfed: bret left you a message 25 seconds ago: 500 errors on huffduff video http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428608996328
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tantek bengo - do you have a source for that or firsthand research?
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bengo firsthand
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tantek is that something you could document publicly?
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tantek that's a worthy criticism of gmail
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bret snarfed: no worries! just a heads up. been thinking about hot to set up a storageless streaming version
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bret how*
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bengo it's a disaster. You can send a reasonable HTML5 document (even a HTML5 'app' with cool fancy features) and they strip out all the good web stuff and just show the user some <tables>
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bengo @tantek Yes... I'll add that to my indieweb to-article list for after work
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kylewm tantek: bengo: why is that surprising? would you want to be able to send javascript in an email?
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bengo Yes
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bengo Or at least custom elements
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bengo email is content-type agnostic. I just want to be able to leverage that
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bengo We shouldn't have to replace email for private messaging
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kylewm I mean, I rewrite the html of received webmentions
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Loqi +1
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ben_thatmustbeme eep, javascript in email... no no no
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bengo art @tantek's critique of no-URLs. I don't see why I couldn't write an email server that accepts messages, posts them as URLs that only the actual participants are authorized to access
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aaronpk yeah I would never want my email client to run arbitrary JS
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bengo @ben_thatmustbeme I'm not saying it's a good idea, just that it's annoying that Google's in the way of using the protocol as-designed
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aaronpk just like I wouldn't want my site to display arbitrary JS from received webmentions
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bengo embrace, extend, replace I guess
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tantek bengo - yes that's what we call hypothetical, as in non-existent, thus non.
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snarfed bengo: tantek: http://bcc.npdoty.name/
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tantek.com edited /email (+174) "embed comic referring to legacy usage" (view diff)
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snarfed (not private, granted, but still)
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ben_thatmustbeme bengo, the fact that they are doing something for safety that blocks the protocol as designed, is probably an indicator of design problem
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tantek right - an example of email POSSEing
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tantek documented already and more examples of here https://indiewebcamp.com/email#IndieWeb_Examples
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ben_thatmustbeme actually the main complaint of email is really that its sender controlled, the burden is on the receiver to sort through all the email
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bengo @ben_thatmustbeme I wouldn't be frustrated if they just stripped <script> tags. I'm frustrated that they rewrite all the reasonable markup like <divs> to <tables>
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tantek wow divs to tables. that's like some kind of epic joke.
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bengo @ben_thatmustbeme The receiver can reject messages that would be too burdensome to sift through.
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bengo e.g. block all html emails that contain too many <script>s
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that is... bad, i'm guessing there is some reason for it, forcing it to render the same on mobile, interference with their UI, dunno
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bengo Also any sort of micro pub or messaging system that wants users to be able to submit html has the script tag problem
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bengo it's not unique to a 'design flaw' in email
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bengo My assumption is because they want to support all the way back to Outlook 1990 or whatever
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bengo So they just rewrite to the lowest common denominator
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bengo any HTML-accepting system (e.g. Livefyre) has to scrub away the bad stuff
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tantek hahahaha: https://twitter.com/EmailFail
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bengo :P
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ben_thatmustbeme bengo, the difference is that most (by convention right now) strip html, css, and JS out entirely and just look for the content only, then mark up themselves. email like that is basically sending you a webpage
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tantek bengo, see also "EmailEfail" ;)
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gRegor` Known doesn't like accepting webmentions from me. I get 202, but they never show up.
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GWG bengo: Why would anyone be able to add to my site?
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gRegor` Is there a moderation queue?
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bengo @GWG I just assumed the example.com URL you sent (which didn't include any Authorization claim) is something anyone could hit
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tantek.com edited /email (+93) "/* Criticism */ More Problems see EmailEfail and @EmailFail" (view diff)
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GWG bengo: No. Since I'm using WordPress, it checks for the WordPress user cookie. If it isn't there, it redirects to the WordPress login screen.
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GWG I just didn't see the need for Indieauth in this case.
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bengo @GWG ah well there you go. Bad assumption on my part
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GWG I'm trying to figure out if I missed something
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gRegor` http://gregorlove.com/notes/2015/03/23/2/ hasn't shown up on werd.io
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GWG I suppose a GET based design could be risky.
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bret tee hee http://intheoreum.org/
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bret poking fun at etherium?
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bengo @GWG in an ideal world, GET requests should be idempotent. I don't think 'posting a bookmark' is that way. IMO you should not accept GET, but only POST
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bengo @bret awesome share
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bengo Glad I wasn't the only one who felt this way when reading about ehterium
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aaronpk GWG: are you actually creating the bookmark from that request or pre-populating the interface with that request?
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gRegor` What is etherium?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "etherium" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=etherium&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428609811734
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bret "Bob controls a worldwide public record of all transactions and is provably arbitrary. We call this record, the Bobchain."
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tantek what is etherium?
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GWG aaronpk: Creating the bookmark. I thought about populating a form with it.
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "etherium" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=etherium&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428609822121
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bret "Powered in Theory"
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bengo “I moved to Iceland for the cheap electricity and haven't seen the sun in many months. By moving my assets onto the Bobchain I can live anywhere in the world. I'm thinking Barbados... do you think Bob will let me?” – CryptoFoLife
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GWG I was trying to reduce the friction so I could quickly send bookmarks into my site without the complication.
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tantek bengo, agreed re: GET idempotent and not using GET to create bookmarks.
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tantek what is intheoreum
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "intheoreum" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=intheoreum&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428609885623
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bret bengo: ye be weary of all parallax scrolling
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bengo @GWG If you support that sort of API, you could even easily add a simple HTML form to your homepage that lets users enter a URL and 'submit a bookmark'. Just have the form action be that API.
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tantek intheoreum is http://intheoreum.org/ an apparent mocking of ethereum, but ignorable since it depends on Javascript to display content, per js;dr.
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loqi.me created /intheoreum (+172) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428609885623 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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bret turn it on for the lulz!
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aaronpk i think that is part of the irony
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bengo etherium is https://www.ethereum.org/, A project for distributed computing with something about blockchain-enforcable contracts
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loqi.me created /etherium (+154) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428609811734 and dfn added by bengo" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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ben_thatmustbeme i mention 20 minutes ago how quiet it is in here, and boy things change
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tantek what is a blockchain?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "blockchain" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=blockchain&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428609990626
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ just for you ;)
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gRegor` What is bitcoin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bitcoin" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bitcoin&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428610001938
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aaronpk cringes
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GWG bengo: The problem is my goal is to use the sharing intent in Android to send bookmarks into the system.
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aaronpk i think the description of the "bobchain" covers it
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tantek what is bobchain?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bobchain" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bobchain&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428610057919
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gRegor` bobchain is /blockchain
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loqi.me created /bobchain (+23) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428610057919 and dfn added by gRegor`" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gregorlove.com edited /etherium (-132) "r, spelling" (view diff)
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gRegor` what is etherium?
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Loqi Ethereum is a project that implements a bitcoin/cryptocurrency like block chain used for sending around "contracts" https://indiewebcamp.com/etherium
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gregorlove.com edited /intheoreum (+4) (view diff)
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bengo @GWG why is that a problem?
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GWG bengo: That Bookmarklet Free app expects a GET
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GWG So, that would be where I'd be accepting it from.
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bengo I don't see a pref link to "That Bookmarklet Free app", can you share?
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bengo And at the end of the day, you could always accept a GET because pragmatism.
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bengo But good clients should POST
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GWG https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kurtchen.android.bookmarklet.free
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bengo And you can enforce your pragmatism. e.g. only accept GET if the User-Agent is android
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GWG bengo: If you know anyone who wants to write a version of that app for Android...
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bengo I'll keep an eye out. I stay away from Java
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bengo JavaScript the same thing anyway yknow
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bengo But it sounds like you shouldn't really need a new Android Thing. Use that one, and accept GETs if it helps your site out.
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bengo I would do some sample requests from that app, though, and see if there's some heuristic I could check for on the server to only allow GETs from "Bookmarklet Free"
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bengo But that's just because I like throwing Errors when people are doing things the suboptimal way.
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bengo What is Postel's Law?
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bengo Loqi: http://indiewebcamp.com/Postel%27s_law
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Loqi grins profusely
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kylewm GWG: you could write a bookmarklet that adds a <form> at the bottom of the current page and submits it...
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GWG bengo: My code supports both POST and GET. The only other alternative is to use GET to generate a form which means one omore click.
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GWG kylewm: I'm using a app-based feed reader though.
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snarfed ooh i just hit a '410 Gone' in the wild
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bengo @GWG it sounds like you're good to go then? Is there a problem to be solved?
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snarfed rare exotic animal
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snarfed i feel special
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GWG snarfed: You are special.
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GWG bengo: You said it was suboptimal.
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bengo @GWG sorry. Only insofar as others will be able to use GET, not just the one place you really need to allow it. In practice you can decide not to care
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bengo Otherwise if you have some PHP that is looking for those $GET/$POST vars
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snarfed bret: huffduff-video should be fixed now
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bengo if it's $GET, add a conditional that will only allow requests that look like they're coming from Android/BookmarkletFree to pass
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bret snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 99 karma
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bret snarfed: any idea what happend?
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snarfed bret: yeah, i know the downstream cause, but not the upstream cause
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snarfed high level, upstream cause is that a t2.micro ec2 instance isn't quite big enough for this :P
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm thinking of just dropping permashortcitations
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gRegor` GWG: Are you making a plugin that handles adding these bookmarks?
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 63 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme unrelated note, going to create a small lib php-contacts. mf2-> contact entry data
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ben_thatmustbeme at least a more cleaned up form of it any way
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tantek is that for a nickname cache or … ?
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bengo what is 'contact entry data'?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, yes, and to build a contact list thing too
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ben_thatmustbeme he left
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ben_thatmustbeme :0/
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Loqi [mention] https://darius.dunlaps.net/2015/04/09/iiw-and-indieweb/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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@dariusdunlap IIW and Indieweb https://darius.dunlaps.net/2015/04/09/iiw-and-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/586268559615078401)
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@kevinmarks @jdunck also http://www.kevinmarks.com/we-like-indieweb-software.html covers a lot of the thinking behind it (twitter.com/_/status/586268775902765056)
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@kevinmarks RT @dariusdunlap: IIW and Indieweb https://darius.dunlaps.net/2015/04/09/iiw-and-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/586269099271020544)
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cweiske kylewm, do you strip <pre> tags in woodwind? why? http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-04-09%20woodwind%20pre%20tags.png
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cweiske that "upnp directory root" text looks better in real
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kylewm yes, probabl
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GWG gRegor: You mean, posting them to my site, yes.
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kylewm cweiske: ok fixed it
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kylewm also gRegor` ascii art looks better now
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KartikPrabhu !tell bengo for future ref. if you use @ in front of an IRC username the logs link to the Twitter account. so @tantek would link to the wrong person!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks I did another couple of indieweb WTF? sessions today
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GWG KevinMarks: Great title.
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KevinMarks walking through webmention -> mf2 -> micropub -> indieauth
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KevinMarks lots of js-dr webpages being made here
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KevinMarks I did one session with doc et al going from http://www.npr.org/api/queryGenerator.php to feed to json to h-feed explaining APIs and templates and transforms and what is fragile and what isn't
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.npr.org%2Fquery%3Fid%3D1001%26requiredAssets%3Daudio%26dateType%3Dstory%26output%3DPodcast%26apiKey%3DMDA0MTMyNDk3MDEyOTc4NzIyMzliYzYwZQ001
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KevinMarks which means I can subscribe to NPR radio news in woodwind
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gRegor` Yay, ascii art in woodwind
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Loqi yay!
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KevinMarks though I now feel like unmung needs to support webmentions
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KevinMarks I think google's html rewriting proxy was made a logn time ago and not maintained usefully
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GWG kylewm: How does one write a bookmarklet?
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kylewm GWG: I used this http://subsimple.com/bookmarklets/jsbuilder.htm
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kylewm GWG: like, here's an example https://gist.github.com/kylewm/946d6b86c90d97cff2be
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GWG I think it would take longer for me to learn Javascript.
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kylewm doesn't really know javascript
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GWG doesn't know it
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kylewm GWG: inspiration from snarfed? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-10/line/1423615227331
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gRegor` Hehe
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kylewm oh my, NPR's XML format is called NPRML
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gRegor` Haaa
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KartikPrabhu PTML: Parallel Transport XML for my site!!
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Here's that This American Life segment I was talking about last night. It's pretty good. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/520/no-place-like-home?act=3
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KartikPrabhu thanks
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KartikPrabhu warning includes a lot of toast :P
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gRegor` PITAML
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KartikPrabhu ToastML for toast recipes
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gRegor` Don't really know much about how the xmlns: URLs are supposed to work, but shouldn't it return more than this? http://api.npr.org/nprml
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KartikPrabhu :P
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gRegor` That's the only place I see the 'nprml', in the <rss> element. Interesting. xmlns:nprml="http://api.npr.org/nprml"
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gRegor` Totally coincidence, KartikPrabhu, but I forgot to mention the name of the podcast I'll be a part of is Late Night Toast.
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KartikPrabhu lol :P
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KartikPrabhu you should talk about the "hipster" toast
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gRegor` Ours is free though
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gRegor` And not artisinal
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Loqi yea
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bengo http://www.umbel.org/
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bengo pretty rad
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Loqi bengo: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 hour, 36 minutes ago: for future ref. if you use @ in front of an IRC username the logs link to the Twitter account. so @tantek would link to the wrong person! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428614481124
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bengo https://gist.github.com/gobengo/09a01241e6c63d69a161
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bengo Given any indieweb url (like bengo.is or tantek.com), perform some entity extraction.
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KartikPrabhu bengo: what kind of entities? I don't understand any of those
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bengo umbel 'concepts' I guess, which are then mappable to other vocals
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bengo Could be helpful for a few use cases
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bengo 1) I just wrote an Article I'm about to post. Suggest to me some good 'Concepts' to tag it with
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KartikPrabhu what is tag?
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Loqi tags or tagging refers to categorizing or labeling content, your own or others (tag-reply), with words, phrases, names, or other information, optionally linked to specific people, events, locations, such as the practice of tagging posts being about certain people (person-tag), like tagging people or other items where (area-tag) they're depicted in a photo https://indiewebcamp.com/tag
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bengo 2) I really liked the article I just read on someone's indieweb blog. I want to find some similar ones, so I ask umbel for the concepts mentioned, then (idk how) find some other articles that talk about the same things.
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KartikPrabhu For 1. see: https://indiewebcamp.com/tag#mark_up_and_post_a_tag_reply For 2. use reader and u-category mf2
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KartikPrabhu bengo: does the source have to publish these umbel things?
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KartikPrabhu what is umbel?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "umbel" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=umbel&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428621189380
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bengo Nah, it just works for any URL
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bengo What's your domain?
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KartikPrabhu kartikprabhu.com
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bengo https://gist.github.com/gobengo/09a01241e6c63d69a161#file-kartikprabhu-note
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bengo There is an extraction from your latest article
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KartikPrabhu oh so it looks for some words and matches some "concept" to it
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bengo Exactly. Always cool to see a free resource for hard-ish problems like that
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bengo So maybe I want to be notified whenever any of my indieweb friends posts about the "Manchester United Soccer Team". With some system like this, even if my friends just casually write about 'ManU Football
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bengo '
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bengo I could still (hypothetically), get notified
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KartikPrabhu depending on how well umbel vocabulary keeps up. seems fragile
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KartikPrabhu like a spof
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bengo Good point :)
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bengo But Umbel is open source I think https://github.com/structureddynamics/umbel
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bengo or at least some of the data/mappings... can't tell
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bengo Software too: https://github.com/structureddynamics
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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kylewm I'm always curious what sort of person sets out to organize all of the world's concepts into these hierarchical ontologies
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bengo They're not hierarchical
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bengo (exclusively)
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kylewm probably the same type of person who writes the wikipedia entry for wikipedia.org/wiki/Art :p
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bengo e.g. if I assert `Rock -(similarTo)-> Stone`, there's no hierarchy there
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atomicules.co.uk edited /User:Atomicules.co.uk (+141) "/* Relevant posts from my site */" (view diff)
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kylewm bengo: they're somewhat hierarchical, I looked at Cream, and it specialized into Spermicidal Cream and Dairy Cream
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bengo Yeah some are. I think I agree with your sentiment. But I don't think the value of these things is hierarchies, it's the graph of relationships in general.
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KartikPrabhu waits for actual use-cases
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gRegor` A "Related articles" thing for indieweb could be cool though.
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gRegor` Whoa. Don't mix up those creams.
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atomicules.co.uk edited /User:Atomicules.co.uk (+45) (view diff)
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kylewm anyway, saying hierarchical confused my point ... i know that's a criticism of schema.org, that it's overly hierarchical.
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atomicules.co.uk edited /User:Atomicules.co.uk (+21) "/* Relevant posts from my site */" (view diff)
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kylewm i just wonder who sits down and tries to build these ontologies where the domain is literally Everything
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gregorlove.com created /umbel (+177) "prompted by KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428621189380" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu what is umbel?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/umbel
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gRegor` Hm
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bengo kylewm: I looked into it. The answer is 'some guys in iowa' http://structureddynamics.com/about.html
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kylewm actually that totally explains it
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kylewm :)
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bengo http://www.mkbergman.com/
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gregorlove.com moved /umbel to /Umbel "capitalization"
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bengo "Shaping Wikipedia into a Computable Knowledge Base"
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KartikPrabhu "[...]effective data integration and semantic frameworks driven by ontologies." raises the no use-case/all theory red-flag
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kylewm i worked on a project for work around 2007-2008 where one of the requirements was "Use Ontologies"
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gregorlove.com edited /Umbel (+0) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu good luck
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bengo lol. What was the project?
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Loqi These are projects you can use to get your site on the IndieWeb and improve your IndieWeb support https://indiewebcamp.com/project
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KartikPrabhu ha! Loqi
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gRegor` Heh. Period inside of quotation mark seemed to be the issue with Loqi and Umbel
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Loqi is done
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gRegor` What is Umbel?
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Loqi Umbel is a general reference structure of concepts "designed to help content interoperate on the Web" https://indiewebcamp.com/Umbel
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gRegor` regex is hard
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gRegor` Loqi should respond to that with "let's go shopping"
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KartikPrabhu what is regex?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "regex" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=regex&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428622730915
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KartikPrabhu oh snap!
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gRegor` wat
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gRegor` What is regular expression?
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kylewm bengo: a project for the air force... my first exposure to buzzword soup
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "regular expression" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=regular+expression&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428622753552
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bengo @kylewm roger :P
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gRegor` I swear there was a page for regex
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bengo I've been lucky enough to avoid that sort of thing in my short career.
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bengo Maybe that just means I'm the buzzword guy
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kylewm they were very excited about building a multi-agent system, where like one agent could query other agents for their capabilities and then adapt to different situations
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bengo Well that sounds relevant
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KartikPrabhu like skynet
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kylewm but it didn't actually do anything :p
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kylewm is super off-topic
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bengo I was at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View this last weekend. I really enjoyed learning about how the Navy (iirc) really helped drive investment in 'real time computing' in the (idk..) 60s-ish
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kylewm that place is awesome
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bengo And also I left being like "man... the web is so young"
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KartikPrabhu this is where tantek reminds us of #indiechat
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bengo Ah well I didn't know about that channel
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bengo what is indiechat
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Loqi #indiechat is an IRC channel on freenode.net for off-topic chat for the IndieWebCamp community https://indiewebcamp.com/indiechat
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 91 karma
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gregorlove.com created /regular_expression (+169) "stub" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is regex?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "regex" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=regex&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428623087476
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gRegor` regex is \regular expression
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KartikPrabhu regex is regular expression
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loqi.me created /regex (+55) "prompted by KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-09/line/1428622730915 and dfn added by gRegor`" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Loqi ok
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gRegor` Hahaha
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KartikPrabhu lol
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gregorlove.com edited /regex (-23) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is regex?
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Loqi A regular expression is a sequence of characters used to match, extract, and/or replace patterns in text https://indiewebcamp.com/regex
backwards and scor joined the channel
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loqi.me created /parse_HTML_with_regex (+93) "prompted by kylewm and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /regular_expression (+68) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
tantek and snarfed joined the channel
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan reshared a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-10/line/1423615239465 (https://kylewm.com/2015/04/repost-of-snarfed-this-would-be-easier-if-i-knew)
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan reshared a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-10/line/1423615227331 (https://kylewm.com/2015/04/repost-of-snarfed-this-would-be-easier-if-i-knew)
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snarfed story of my life
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snarfed it's dog science all the way down
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pdurbin what is dog science?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "dog science" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=dog+science&summary=prompted+by+pdurbin+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-09%2Fline%2F1428623981336