#indiewebcamp 2015-05-03

2015-05-03 UTC
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@askalot RT @AaronGustafson: Added two new Jekyll tools to Github today: Adaptive Images - https://github.com/aarongustafson/jekyll-adaptive-image Webmention.io Supplements - htt… (twitter.com/_/status/594658971283165185)
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kylewm GWG: what's the risk? (why would it be a bad idea)
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 10 minutes ago: I am interested in your review and opinions of https://indiewebcamp.com/proof_of_work - both criticisms and suggested improvements in the hopes of continuing to focus this channel on more practically productive conversations, as quickly as possible. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-02/line/1430597858309
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GWG kylewm: Not sure if there is sufficient interest. Limited microformats are in there.
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GWG I'm thinking of taking the plugin pfefferle wrote, enhancing it, and proposing the changes it makes on the fly be incorporated into core, as opposed to submitting a patch. Then, not only could people see the alterations, but it is consistent with WordPress's features as plugins kick that has had mixed results.
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GWG I keep building things, then trying to distill them down into simpler forms. Then distilling again and again
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kylewm I thought pfefferle's plugin was limited in what it was able to do
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GWG It is. But it could do better.
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GWG That was what I was thinking about as I took a walk earlier.
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GWG I foresee myself being asked why Bob or Alice want microformats2 on their site
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GWG I'm overthinking this. I think I'll just have to try it.
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aaronpk Wow that was quite the backlog to catch up on after a 10-hr flight
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 36 minutes ago: I am interested in your review and opinions of https://indiewebcamp.com/proof_of_work - both criticisms and suggested improvements in the hopes of continuing to focus this channel on more practically productive conversations, as quickly as possible. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-02/line/1430597858309
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aaronpk That sounds like a great way to reduce distracting chatter in the logs :-) Will review that page when I'm back at my computer
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@pintman Die IndieWeb-Bewegung steht für Kontrolle über eigene Daten, eigene Tools, Maschinenlesbarkeit und Spaß. http://indiewebcamp.com/principles #fb (twitter.com/_/status/594760603882905600)
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@martinlindner Mal statt coden hier lernen einsetzen: Via @pintman: Die IndieWeb-Bewegung (das Programm): http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (twitter.com/_/status/594765884914278400)
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aaronpk good morning from Amsterdam!
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elf-pavlik slvrbckt, ahoy o/ could you possibly from http://sockethub.org think about https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/4 ? we can discuss it further in Dusseldorf together with aaronpk :)
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@martinlindner @mccab99 ja, die tendenz ist nicht gut. deshalb ja #indieweb usw. (kennst du @withknown ?) (twitter.com/_/status/594785807094968320)
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@mccab99 @martinlindner @withknown Hoffentlich ist in ein Wiki nicht schon #indieweb. #withknow ? Erster Blick: SameAsUsual. #vorurteil (twitter.com/_/status/594786324181360641)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+207) "/* Overview */ link to some RFCs" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (-53) "/* h-entry */ update some properties in some examples" (view diff)
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@hackr breitband (min 33-41) mit @pfefferle zum indieweb http://breitband.deutschlandradiokultur.de/brb150502/ (@pfefferle twitter suche ist mittlerweile tats. gut u vollständig) (twitter.com/_/status/594796287993741312)
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@martinlindner RT @hackr: breitband (min 33-41) mit @pfefferle zum indieweb http://breitband.deutschlandradiokultur.de/brb150502/ (twitter.com/_/status/594798291101085696)
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elf-pavlik what is capability url?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "capability url" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=capability+url&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-03%2Fline%2F1430647939413
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aaronpk sounds like a bearer token
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elf-pavlik capability url is Capability URLs grant access to a resource to anyone who has the URL. There are particular application design patterns for which this is useful as they remove the necessity for users to log in to a site and are easily delegated to others. But their use can open up some security issues. URLs are not generally required to be kept secret, and there are various routes through which capability URLs can leak into unintended hands. This
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elf-pavlik document provides some good practices for web developers who wish to incorporate capability URLs into their applications, to minimise these risks. http://w3ctag.github.io/capability-urls/
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loqi.me created /capability_url (+478) "prompted by elf-pavlik https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430647939413 and dfn added by elf-pavlik" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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elf-pavlik which one can *dereference*
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elf-pavlik what is dereferencing?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "dereferencing" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=dereferencing&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-03%2Fline%2F1430648007695
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: is that copy-pasted from somewhere else? that's generally not okay for the IWC wiki because of copyright
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elf-pavlik Copyright © 2015 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio, Beihang). W3C liability, trademark and document use rules apply.
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aaronpk yeah that's not compatible with CC0
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aaronpk better to describe the term in your own words in the context of the indieweb
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elf-pavlik i'll turn it into qoute
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aaronpk generic definitions of terms aren't super useful for the wiki
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elf-pavlik what is conneg?
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Loqi conneg is short for HTTP Content Negotiation, a method by which a browser or other web client can request content of various types from a web server, and depending on what is requested, and what the server supports, it tries to provide the best it can https://indiewebcamp.com/conneg
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elf-pavlik i didn't make this one...
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aaronpk that appears to be original text https://www.google.com/search?q=%22a+method+by+which+a+browser+or+other+web+client+can+request+content+of+various+types+from+a+web+server%22
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /capability_url (+53) "turned into quotation with link to the source" (view diff)
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aaronpk any indieweb examples of this?
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elf-pavlik see reply-to https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594122594632228866
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@elfpavlik @remotestorage_ do you still use https://github.com/w3ctag/capability-urls for /public scope? maybe worth referencing this @w3ctag draft... (twitter.com/_/status/594122594632228866)
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elf-pavlik also https://twitter.com/skddc/status/594146758504099840
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@skddc @elfpavlik We set up a wiki, but it's still almost blank. Feel free to register and drop notes at https://wiki.remotestorage.io/index.php/Notes or anywhere else. (twitter.com/_/status/594146758504099840)
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aaronpk if you can find URLs of indieweb sites that use it, create an "== IndieWeb Examples==" section on the page to start collecting them
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elf-pavlik slvrbckt and @skddc will come to Dusseldorf ...
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elf-pavlik as well as fkooman and @michielbdejong who both work(ed) a lot on https://remotestorage.io/
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aaronpk cool
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elf-pavlik we can document their real world usage of capability urls then
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aaronpk this is interesting... we're missing a piece to reliably send notifications of comments/likes on posts
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aaronpk ...to readers who are not the author
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, do you have this 'missing piece' documented somewhere?
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aaronpk as soon as I commit this, yes
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aaronpk it's hard to explain so is better read in this context
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aaronpk going through this user story piece by piece is really helpful. I would love to see the others do the same
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aaronpk here is the writeup. search for "TODO" for that missing piece
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md
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@dkreuz Die aktuelle @screengui_de zum #indieweb gab es leider nicht mehr am Bahnhofskiosk. Dafür die vorletzte MM mit einer Geschichte von Don Rosa (twitter.com/_/status/594845507505250304)
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@Freerange_Inc hmm #indieweb tools focus on individual & their data rights, not many focused on the social justice implications of normalised surveillance? (twitter.com/_/status/594847313295745024)
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aaronpk that seems kind of like saying "why doesn't this apple taste more like an orange! they're both fruit!"
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indiewebcamp
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ben_thatmustbeme wow that was a lot of logs to catch up on
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: did you catch the part that mentioned you mentioning how hard it is to catch up on logs now? ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek yes, I was commenting on not being able to catch up on logs. The length of logs + added line noise of loqi, what-is requests, tweets, etc
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme i was just bringing that up
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aaronpk i'm still planning on shortening the "what is" links so at least those will be less ugly lines
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek makes it so that I often do not bother, but will usually do just a quick skim. The recent conversations were largely interrupted and I had a free block of time, so I did read back
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, At this point i've started reading back logs from the website because too much of IRC is muddied up
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aaronpk totally, the web logs are way easier to read
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ben_thatmustbeme i have a feature request on that end though... is it possible to get loqi to log slack/<user> as just <user>
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Loqi yeah!
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ben_thatmustbeme and thus make it actually look like the people who are talking
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aaronpk yeah like he does for twitter
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aaronpk and wiki edits
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ben_thatmustbeme I may throw in some JS to have a button for hiding wiki edits and or all of loqi
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ben_thatmustbeme also tweets
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ben_thatmustbeme just get to the actual conversation
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aaronpk or RTs
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aaronpk anyway ben_thatmustbeme I'd love to get your input on this https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md
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ben_thatmustbeme still reading through... but interesting thoughts about pubsubhubbub. I really don't like it for the fact of huge spec with lots of extra but then doesn't work for things like this.. PuSH only works for subscribing to feeds.. I feel like we need to be able to subscribe to posts as well... similar to FB & G+ once you comment on a post (g+) or are tagged in a post (FB) you are subscribed to it and get future updates on
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ben_thatmustbeme that post
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aaronpk a post is a feed of comments on the post
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aaronpk also PuSH works just fine for subscribing to changes of a specific thing
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ben_thatmustbeme btw, section 4 has Host:ben.me instead of Denise.me
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm
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aaronpk yeah PuSH 0.4 barely mentions "feed" at all, and only in examples
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aaronpk (thx for catching that, i knew iwas gonna mix one of those up)
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aaronpk but the crazy thing is right now, as long as we're talking about posts that are on the home page feed, that whole story works fine as described
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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aaronpk it's only once a post moves off the front page that it becomes important to be able to subscribe to specific posts for changes
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ben_thatmustbeme disagree
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ben_thatmustbeme that assumes people want to subscribe to the ENTIRE feed always
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aaronpk let me rephrase. it doesn't matter if the feed is a home page feed or a path.
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ben_thatmustbeme and actually it all works without PuSH for the entire user story after the first part of people getting notified of the original post
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ben_thatmustbeme updating people of changes to like count, replies, etc is not really a part of the user story
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aaronpk it is, because of "indicates to Alexa and others"
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aaronpk and #4 is ambiguous because it sais "Denise indicates" but doesn't specify to who
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ben_thatmustbeme "[Ben] indicates to Alexa and others"
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ben_thatmustbeme you are doing "ben indicates to Alexa, and Alexa indicates to others"
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ben_thatmustbeme what Ben should be doing is notifying his push hub of the "like" post
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aaronpk i was assuming "others" meant the same people that saw the original post
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aaronpk in which case the only way to do it is for alexa to push it out
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aaronpk (turns out these stories are ambiguous in many ways once you start digging in to them)
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ben_thatmustbeme i think it makes more sense the other way, its the same as 'Ben favorited a post by Alexa' showing up in a twitter feed
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ben_thatmustbeme its ben's followers that get that update
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ben_thatmustbeme only Alexa gets a notification that someone favorited her tweet
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aaronpk but everyone who looks at the tweet sees ben's like
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, but you aren't updating people that ben favorited it
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aaronpk that depends on what you mean by "updating people"
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ben_thatmustbeme people who view the tweet get that at the time they view it
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aaronpk here's the thing though
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ben_thatmustbeme you are focusing on feed readers needing that information
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aaronpk if you're only using your reader to view things, your reader needs to be made aware of that like
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ben_thatmustbeme true, but i would argue thats outside of the user story
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aaronpk we might need to clarify that
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aaronpk i was operating with the asumption that that is integral to the user stories
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aaronpk shooting for a unified reading/writing interface
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aaronpk since that's how twitter and facebook became so popular to begin with
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ben_thatmustbeme i think its good to mention that the update can be pushed out to readers
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ben_thatmustbeme but i think the intention is to publicly "like" the video which means updating his own followers
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps should mention both
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ben_thatmustbeme i think the case you have now is Alexa updating others' readers of new likes to the post, is at a lower level
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aaronpk hm, I didn't get that impression. If it had said something like "Charles who is following Ben but not Alexa posts a comment..."
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ben_thatmustbeme charles I would assume to be a follower of Alexa and that 3 has nothing at all to do with 2
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aaronpk right which is why I didn't read #2 as ben posting to his own followers about the like
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aaronpk I wouldn't say lower level tho. Maybe my description went above and beyond the minimum requirements to pass the user story, but I think it's all critical to the end goal
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ben_thatmustbeme the way you read it 3 should then have "charles posts a comment and indicates to alexa and other others...
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aaronpk yes i was assuming that any interaction on the original post would be visible to anyone that is following alexa
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ben_thatmustbeme so why didn't you assume that for 2?
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aaronpk wait what? that's exactly what i did
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ben_thatmustbeme thus the text would indicate ben is pushing to his own followers
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ben_thatmustbeme no, you assumed that the text means that, rather than making the same assumption of subtext indicating it
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ben_thatmustbeme thus the text => ben pushes to his followers , subtext => updates alexa's followers
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ben_thatmustbeme i think we are getting too deep in to this
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aaronpk i'm happy to add a note that ben's followers will also see the like, but that doesn't really change anything else about the description
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ben_thatmustbeme who originally wrote this user story?
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ben_thatmustbeme Evan
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps we can ask for his intention in it, or at least other's thoughts.
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aaronpk i'd be curious to hear what he says
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ben_thatmustbeme is won't be at F2F but i believe he will be remote
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tantek did we figure all of /SWAT0 ?
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 34 minutes ago: yes, I was commenting on not being able to catch up on logs. The length of logs + added line noise of loqi, what-is requests, tweets, etc http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430658495590
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 33 minutes ago: makes it so that I often do not bother, but will usually do just a quick skim. The recent conversations were largely interrupted and I had a free block of time, so I did read back http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430658560628
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aaronpk the Responses story doesn't mention person tagging, so i'm not sure
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tantek SWAT0 is the official first user story
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aaronpk but we are 99% solved for responses: https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md
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tantek approved before any of them got written
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aaronpk i guess i should see if i can go write up that one
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tantek reads logs
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tantek aaronpk - that's the point - I mostly had written it up on the /SWAT0 page itself
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tantek and I think that's partly what motivated ben_thatmustbeme to implement person tagging during IWC Cambridge
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aaronpk let's see what else is missing
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0
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aaronpk 1) need to know what receiving a /person_mention looks like
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell elf-pavlik catching up on your questions of content type header for html+microformats. I don't think it makes sense. You would need headers for html+rdfa+mf2, html+mf2, html+rdfa, html+... and every other format that ever gets made. Its not at all sustainable or desirable
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk er sorry that was 2)
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aaronpk i think 3) is okay, assuming i'm reading and writing everything from my reader app, even if my reader app is not the same as where the reader app stores the data (my website)
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_negotiation
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Loqi elf-pavlik: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 57 seconds ago: catching up on your questions of content type header for html+microformats. I don't think it makes sense. You would need headers for html+rdfa+mf2, html+mf2, html+rdfa, html+... and every other format that ever gets made. Its not at all sustainable or desirable http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430660777073
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aaronpk i think 5) can be solved with PuSH now, but i'll have to run thrugh it
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elf-pavlik you don't need new header but just a profile *paramter* to go with text/html media type
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: ben_thatmustbeme: can we please not argue about conneg again?
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aaronpk at least until there is some demonstrated actual need for it other than "I want it"?
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elf-pavlik instead html+rdfa+mf you can ask for either rdfa or mf prioritising them with q=
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, ok no problem to leave it for now
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tantek sorry elf-pavlik there's no evidence you need conneg at all for HTML+microformats. please don't bother re-raising until you've built/deployed something that demonstrates a need.
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tantek we should probably put that in an FAQ since it keeps coming up
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Loqi agreed.
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tantek I'm going to delete /capability_url since it's entirely a quote from another source and has no original content
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tantek.com deleted /capability_url "entirely a quote from another source and has no original content"
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aaronpk also conneg is primarily there to benefit the consumer of the data, so making arguments about why publishers benefit from using conneg is kind of missing the point
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, i reraised it, thats my fault
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tantek.com edited /proof_of_work (+92) "/* Why */ cite for less noisy logs desires" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek++ for updating /SWAT0 after getting person tgging figured out! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=SWAT0&action=historysubmit&diff=18443&oldid=13627
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Loqi tantek has 184 karma
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tantek aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme pretty sure we can do SWAT0 *without* PuSH, and we should.
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aaronpk actually yeah it can't use PuSH because the last step is people getting a notification of a comment from someone they're not subscribed to
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, i've heard that you have example of pushing data to web browser...
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elf-pavlik i started adding http://www.w3.org/TR/eventsource/ to my website, what do you use?
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: kylewm did that for Woodwind, and I do for the IRC logs
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aaronpk i'm using websockets right now but i'm going to switch to Eventsource with websockets fallback soon
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elf-pavlik cool!
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elf-pavlik do you have section for pushing to client e.g. web browser on a wiki?
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elf-pavlik what is server sent events?
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Loqi server-sent events is a DOM API for receiving push notifications from a server via HTTP https://indiewebcamp.com/server-sent_events
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elf-pavlik what is websockets?
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Loqi Websocket is a full-duplex single socket connection over which messages can be sent between client and server https://indiewebcamp.com/websockets
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elf-pavlik what is real-time?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "real-time" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=real-time&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-03%2Fline%2F1430661483234
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elf-pavlik what is webrtc?
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Loqi WebRTC is a free, open project that enables web browsers with Real-Time Communications (RTC) capabilities via simple JavaScript APIs https://indiewebcamp.com/WebRTC
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, did you have chance to take a look at https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD#pubsub-notifications ?
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aaronpk tantek: oh no now you're gonna make me figure out the micropub version of person tagging!
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: yes, I don't understand why it requires websockets and why it didn't use PubSubHubbub or eventsource
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: I have it working the chrome only. The latest version added Push support so I am using that
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues/11
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tantek aaronpk - ben_thatmustbeme already figured out the micropub version of persontagging
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tantek just not area tagging
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ben_thatmustbeme but they don't support sending data yet, so its just a notification to a web-worker that can then pull data
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tantek which actually revealed that our area tagging approach needed to get redesiged
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tantek s/redesiged/redesigned
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Loqi tantek meant to say: which actually revealed that our area tagging approach needed to get redesigned
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, area tagging needs some embedded items
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aaronpk frankly websockets is way overkill for a simple pubsub mechanism. websockets gives you a two-way channel and you're effectively only using one direction then
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ben_thatmustbeme or at least it seemed so
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aaronpk hokey i'd better read up on person tagging since i haven't really been following it
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elf-pavlik i made that point in github issue just linked
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elf-pavlik "If you only use Updates-Via to receive updates. It may make sense to mandate SSE instead of Websockets."
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aaronpk I like SSE because it's just HTTP where the connection stays open
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elf-pavlik preferably HTTPS :)
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aaronpk of course :)
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elf-pavlik https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594762809717587968
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@elfpavlik Deprecating Non-Secure HTTP! -> #HTTPS @mozilla @w3c @ietf @EFF and others join efforts to make The Web secure! https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2015/04/30/deprecating-non-secure-http/ (twitter.com/_/status/594762809717587968)
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aaronpk (https is really just http once you get past the TLS negotiation)
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elf-pavlik what is https?
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Loqi HTTPS is an abbreviation for Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure, a protocol for secure communication, supported by web servers (like Apache & nginx) and browsers https://indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS
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elf-pavlik what is letsencrypt?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/letsencrypt
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: person tagging in micropub is just sending category=http://ben.thatmustbe.me/ right?
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /letsencrypt (+17) "added <dfn>" (view diff)
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elf-pavlik what is letsencrypt?
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Loqi Let’s Encrypt is a new Certificate Authority intended to be free, automated, and open https://indiewebcamp.com/letsencrypt
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: thats how i'm doing it, yes. everything else in the the server side
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aaronpk ok great that makes this easy
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aaronpk oh interesting, i need to add a new rule to the micropub spec for this
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aaronpk if a value of a property is a URL, the micropub endpoint should fetch the URL and use the first microformat object as the value
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elf-pavlik why "use the first microformat object as the value" ?
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aaronpk maybe "representative object" is a better way to phrase it
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aaronpk category=http://aaronparecki.com/ <- category is an h-card representing aaronpk
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elf-pavlik this may help to identify it on a page - http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-resource
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elf-pavlik or http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-about
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aaronpk location=https://tommorris.org/places/9 <- location is an h-card representing the venue
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/representative_h-card
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aaronparecki.com edited /representative_h-card (+1) "link to updated page" (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell benwerd you should consider a fixed-reference paging mechanism for Known, I was searching google for a photo and of course now that you added photos, offset=489 has a totally different set of photos now
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Does anyone put h-feed on single pages as opposed to archives?
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aaronpk single pages as in pages with only one entry?
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GWG aaronpk: Yes.
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aaronpk that wouldn't really make sense since it's not a feed
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GWG Then why do most WordPress themes do it? No wonder I'm having parsing trouble.
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: it could be seen as a feed of updates on a posr
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GWG Although they are using hfeed, not h-feed
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ben_thatmustbeme but i wouldn't recommend it
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aaronpk probably because of the way the wordpress templates are reused
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aaronpk hm, #3 "barnabywalters, who is subscribed to benwerd..." I guess I can describe "is subscribed to" wtihout PuSH, it's just gonna mean his reader is polling
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aaronpk I will mention PuSH as an optional optimization
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aaronparecki.com edited /SWAT0 (+42) "clarify barnaby does not need to see the photo on his home page, needs to see it in his reader. also PuSH is an optional enhancement" (view diff)
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aaronpk i'm going to keep pushing this btw
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aaronpk using a reader that is not the same system that is your website is totally fine
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aaronpk having your reader be your website is also totally fine
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aaronpk but if all my website does is render microformats feeds, accept webmentions, and expose a micropub endpoint, I don't see why using someone else's reader to read and write to my site is a problem
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AcidNerd still wondering how this reader part will be "live" under Known or WP, but i love the idea, if only i could embed my own website with my current inoreader usage and push new articles i want to share directly to my site
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aaronpk i think acegiak is using a reader that is part of wordpress, are there any screenshots?
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GWG aaronpk: acegiak uses Whisperfollow. I believe there is a video of usage.
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aaronparecki.com edited /SWAT0 (+132) "solved how to receive a person-tag" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /SWAT0 (+280) "/* mapping to indieweb */ note using a separate reader is ok" (view diff)
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GWG Okay...just filed an issue against _s on them putting hfeed on all pages.
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aaronpk cool
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GWG It was messing up my attempts at parsing pages. I can't fix every theme in the world, but if I can fix the starter theme all bundled themes have been based on for the last few years...
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aaronpk upstream++
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Loqi upstream has 1 karma
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aaronpk the real qustionin this SWAT0 thing is the last step... does barnaby's website send webmentions to both aaron and ben? or does barnaby's website mention ben, which then sends a webmention to aaron for the update?
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aaronpk i think i'll write both so we can review
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aaronpk no it can't be both because barnby didn't actually mention me
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GWG I'm looking through code again and seeing people styling against microformats classes. I'm thinking that may not be the best practice.
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aaronpk hokeedokee
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GWG Trying to figure out what makes the most sense in that regard.
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aaronpk GWG: i believe we've had this discussion before, and the general consensus was to not style microformats classes, but some people do and it doesn't really hurt anything in the long run
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aaronpk !tell tantek here is SWAT0 accomplished with Micropub, Microformats and Webmention. PuSH is mentioned as being an optional enhancement.
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GWG The reason why I'm bringing it up again is looking at what would possibly break if I tried to get the bad behavior of WordPress fixed.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk ah gotcha
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GWG WordPress puts hentry on everything.
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aaronpk you know, the other solution to this is to stop back-compat parsing in the parsers
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GWG I thought a saw a discussion about parser behavior in that regard. Wasn't there a scenario where if it saw an mf2 element, it would ignore mf elements?
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aaronpk yeah i can't remember where that discussion left off
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kylewm GWG: yes that's correct
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kylewm but it's scoped to the individual element, so if there is an h-entry, it won't apply backcompat to anything inside that h-entry
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kylewm (the parsers haven't implemented this yet)
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GWG kylewm: A lot of themes in WordPress have an hfeed at the top of every page. How would that be interpreted under that?
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GWG I'm having trouble figuring out how to frame the conversation with a group of people working on a project that has just inserted hentry and hfeed around everything about why they should change that. Or how they can without breaking half of the sites that expect it.
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh (-5) "Fix guest list link" (view diff)
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kylewm GWG: I know we discussed what happens if there is a top-level h-feed -- do you ignore all hCard entries inside that or not? having a little trouble finding it
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kylewm GWG: what motivated them to add hfeed and hentry in the first place?
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GWG I think when Google jumped on the bandwagon
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GWG I believe they've moved to a new bandwagon ow
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GWG now.
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kylewm oh here, right at the top http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#uf2_children_inside_a_classic_microformats_root_class_name
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kylewm uf2 children inside a uf1 parent class will show up in the "children" collection
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GWG My best hope right now I think is to add more control so it can be overridden.
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kylewm it seems like a chicken or egg problem, i imagine it would be hard to sell them on changing the core markup to support a standard that relatively few sites support
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kylewm adding more control so it can be overridden sounds great
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GWG kylewm: I go back to the break a large number of themes argument. Which is the one I'm preparing to counter.
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KevinMarks_ If you have a post with a series of comments, but the comments don't have permalinks, how do you mark that up?
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snarfed KevinMarks_: sounds like you just omit u-url etc?
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GWG I need to file some issues.
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Loqi [bridgy] Nick Jennings replied '@elfpavlik @sockethub sure, what kind of comparison did you have in mind?' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (https://twitter.com/slvrbckt/status/594901852900175874)
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KevinMarks__ That's what I did, but should I have an h-feed to contain them or not?
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KevinMarks__ They have timestamps so the ordering can be reconstructed
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KevinMarks__ I suppose I could make a fragmention url with the comment text
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Loqi [bridgy] ☮ elf Pavlik ☮ replied '@slvrbckt @sockethub similar to: github.com/aaronpk/Microp… also for @SocialWebWG user stories impl. proposals in github.com/aaronpk/Microp…' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594908133593522176)
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GWG https://github.com/Automattic/_s/issues/740
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GWG Okay, this is going to be fun
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Loqi [bridgy] Ben Borges favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594101362683674624)
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kylewm so Known wants the ability to query Bridgy to see if a particular user is connected ... would it make sense to add microformats with a bunch of experimental properties on user pages https://www.brid.gy/facebook/12802152
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kylewm i'm thinking the parent would be an h-card, and the properties woudl all be like p-bridgy-something
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@yatil Meh. No trains running means it is very unlikely to get to Düsseldorf for IndieWebCamp Germany… Especially as I travel to the US next day… (twitter.com/_/status/594920637258403840)
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aaronpk kylewm: what about just u-url to other profiles?
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aaronpk kind of like a rel=me link
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aaronpk or if you're on a user page, you could actually do rel=me
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snarfed aaronpk: that's already there. kylewm is thinking of exposing bridgy-specific data: is the user acct connected, when were they last polled, etc
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/395
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aaronpk oh gotcha
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snarfed hey GWG your web actions plugin isn't in the wp plugin dir yet, right?
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aaronpk sure experimental properties sound like fun :)
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snarfed poor monocle. wish i knew why it doesn't like https://twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com/@me/@friends/@app/?format=html&access_token_key=139199211-7bUqtoRyFJPowpoMZyF2tm91yjHo0vNnULnR3Irz&access_token_secret=oQ3Sdgb8A2zrjaBKbLroBmUmSdunbITZQrq4WOZQ0Lw&
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snarfed argh, didn't mean to do that. time to revoke that token :P
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snarfed done
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aaronpk hah oops
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aaronpk right now monocle expects to be able to fetch the u-url and it actually gets all the data from there
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aaronpk the only piece of info it uses in the feed is the URL
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aaronpk (i'm planning on changing that, but that was easiest to start with)
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snarfed huh. so if i made u-url point to self, it might work
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GWG snarfed: It isn't yet. It will be once I feel it is 'ready'.
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aaronpk it needs to point to a url that has the single h-entry
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snarfed ah ok. that's doable too.
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GWG snarfed: Oddly enough, you are one of the things that gives me pause. Also, reply isn't finished yet
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snarfed i give you pause?
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aaronpk hmm monocle is probably gonna make you hit the twitter rate limit pretty fast with all the GETs it does
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snarfed aaronpk: eh twitter rate limiting is per user
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snarfed (mostly)
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aaronpk well however many tweets come back in the feed, it's gonna make that many requests as fast as it can
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aaronpk (per update, which only happens with it gets a PuSH ping)
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aaronpk (which reminds me, I need to make sure I have an issue there to fall back to polling if no hub is found)
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GWG snarfed: Not you specifically. A decision you made that I'm trying to cope with.
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snarfed GWG: you're always so cryptic. :P which decision?
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GWG snarfed: I've been told that before. You embed your formatting in the content, whereas I add it dynamically. I keep trying to code for both scenarios.
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snarfed ah right
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snarfed btw i tried to use the webactions plugin via monocle and got
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snarfed 401 missing access token
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snarfed does webactions not get a token?
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GWG snarfed: I don't use access tokens. IT must be trying for the micropub endpoint. It only uses WordPress authentication
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snarfed ah ok. so i need to use a client that makes normal requests via the top level browser, so it populates the wordpress auth cookie, not via JS?
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snarfed got a client i can try?
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GWG snarfed: Woodwind
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GWG snarfed: It works with Woodwind
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snarfed huh i didn't see action buttons in woodwind
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GWG snarfed: Under settings. Either way, as I said, isn't fully fleshed out
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snarfed GWG: np, just trying it since you asked me to
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snarfed which setting do i use? configurable action urls?
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snarfed indie config?
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GWG snarfed: Configurable action URLs worked for me.
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GWG snarfed: But, my question is how do I code for static and dynamic markup? I'm having trouble figuring out the best way.
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snarfed ok. trying the example url in the readme
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snarfed got me
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GWG snarfed: /?indie-action=bookmark works for all sites. I'm restricting like and reply right now.
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snarfed oh so i can only bookmark right now?
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snarfed hrm ok
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snarfed (i don't use bookmarks)
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snarfed GWG: it worked! the link to the bookmarked page has no text, and the post is private, but otherwise it worked
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snarfed feature requests: support reply/like/repost; let me set categories to use per type
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snarfed GWG: https://snarfed.org/2015-05-03_113225
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GWG snarfed: There is an option for public override. I'm defaulting to private till I work out the bugs. Like is sort of working. Categories I can do. As I said, it goes back to the question of the markup. Right now, on my site, the markup is done by the post kinds plugin. Whereas on yours, web actions would mark it up itself. That makes me think I should split display from taxonomy again, but I'm not 100% sure how to make that work
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@huffduffer ☞ Why We Need the IndieWeb https://huffduffer.com/bret/227723 (twitter.com/_/status/594936993936744448)
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, snarfed in RDFa thanks to consistent use of triples you can use rel="me" on each/any of multiple entities/subjects appearing on the page :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430676428101
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elf-pavlik IMO this gives much more consistent model and doesn't require duplicating rerms as rel="shortlink" & class="u-shortlink" (while to my understanding they have same meaning)
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elf-pavlik s/rerms/terms/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: IMO this gives much more consistent model and doesn't require duplicating terms as rel="shortlink" & class="u-shortlink" (while to my understanding they have same meaning)
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-rel
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aaronpk I uh, don't think there's a problem
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elf-pavlik what stops you from using rel="me" for multiple entities on one page? if you want to express such semanic relationship between resources http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430676428101
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elf-pavlik and why do you need class="u-shortlink" while rel="shortlink" already exists for this purpose?
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aaronpk rel values describe the page
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aaronpk So the microformats parsers return the rel values all in a "rels" array, outside the context of any specific microformats object
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elf-pavlik so with this interpretation, you can't use "shortlink" for multiple entities present in single page just because of that and need to find workarounds
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elf-pavlik do you know how many link relations microformat needs to duplicate so one can use them as property?
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elf-pavlik BTW http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-property
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-rel
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aaronpk Correct, except it's not so much finding a workaround as it is just finding a way to do it, because rel is not supposed to be able to be used for multiple entities on a page
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elf-pavlik how semanticly link relations used as values of rel differ from u- properties put in class="" ?
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aaronpk u- properties describe the mf2 object they are inside
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elf-pavlik do you know about any drawing showing entities and relations between them?
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elf-pavlik since depending on how you present information inside and outside can swap
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aaronpk I don't understand the question
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aaronpk This works pretty well in practice... There really isn't a problem
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elf-pavlik you never find need to use property in reverse direction?
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elf-pavlik e.g. on person page link to organizations one stays affiliated with and from organization page link to people affiliated
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elf-pavlik so perspective changes but you describe exactly the same information
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elf-pavlik just putting different side of relation 'in spotlight'
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elf-pavlik or co-authored article links to multiple authors and their profiles link to multiple articles
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elf-pavlik i could go on with tons of examples you can find on the web where we see same information but just from different perspective
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aaronpk I don't really see why this is a problem
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elf-pavlik let me find a microformat property for the example i just shown
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elf-pavlik let's say https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
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elf-pavlik i will also add it to list of events on my homepage https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/
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aaronpk Sure, or link to it from your rsvp post
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elf-pavlik those two don't exclude each other
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aaronpk Right, links everywhere
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elf-pavlik we don't need to 'normalize relational database' and can connect entities with as many edges (rel) as we want
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aaronpk The guest list will link to you with p-attendee
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elf-pavlik so i can arrive from A to B via multiple paths
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elf-pavlik and the *reverse* ?
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elf-pavlik me to event?
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aaronpk You'd post an RSVP post
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aaronpk What is an RSVP?
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Loqi An RSVP is a type of post that is a reply to an event post https://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
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elf-pavlik on my homepage you can find in source <ul rev="attendee" class="panel-body"> and li for each event
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aaronpk Why?
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elf-pavlik one event page i would use <ul rel="attendee" class="panel-body"> and li for each person
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elf-pavlik this way we get triples
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elf-pavlik event1 attendee elf
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aaronpk I don't see why that is useful I guess
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elf-pavlik event2 attende elf
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elf-pavlik how can you link *directly* to the events you attended
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elf-pavlik just as even links to list of attendees
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elf-pavlik same with affiliations on my homepage
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elf-pavlik we can *very easily* link BOTH WAYS using the same type of relation
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elf-pavlik ( IWC Dusseldorf ) -- attendee --> ( elf-pavlik)
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aaronpk I know you *can* do things, I don't see why it is useful
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elf-pavlik node, labeled edge, node
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elf-pavlik so you say that it matters to show list of attendees on event page, but showing list of events i attended on my page doesn't make sense?
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aaronpk So unless there is some visible benefit you can describe I'm not really interested in hearing about it
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elf-pavlik https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/events
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elf-pavlik https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/map
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aaronpk Sure showing a list of events you attended is great
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aaronpk But I haven't heard any reason to add any machine readable markup to that list yet, even microformats
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aaronpk Start with what the visible benefit is by having that data machine readable, then talk about how to do it
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elf-pavlik how than friends browsers (similar apps like facebook UI) can display such lists after requesting data from my website?
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aaronpk Example: wouldn't it be cool if our indie readers could be able to tell when your friends plans intersect with your own travel plans, like an indie Dopplr
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elf-pavlik buddyradar :)
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elf-pavlik https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Buddyradar_Use_Case
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elf-pavlik haha two of us in it :D
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Loqi nice
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elf-pavlik small cyberspace ;)
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elf-pavlik can we generalize readers to *Social* data browsers?
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elf-pavlik not the whole world needs to gravitate around blogging and sharing notes...
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aaronpk Probably. Go look at the list of issues for Monocle, I have a lot of plans for that kind of stuff
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elf-pavlik for buddyradar (or whatever we want to call such setup) we may need way of expressing future activities https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/93
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elf-pavlik RSVP makes sense here
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elf-pavlik or CheckIn if i just want to go to Portland not for any particular event
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elf-pavlik Travel + Arrive + Depart https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/activity/Travel
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elf-pavlik drawing can help with Microformats glasses, JSON-LD glasses, Turtle glasses etc. bariers
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aaronpk I have travel posts on my site, http://aaronparecki.com/travel but there are no microformats on them because there's nothing that would consume them yet
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aaronpk I do wanna figure it out and also make indie Dopplr
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GWG aaronpk: Have you added travel to the wiki?
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elf-pavlik Pieter will publish soon all the code (javascript) for multimodal trip planner using Linked Data Fragments and Open Data including GTFS
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elf-pavlik https://speakerdeck.com/pietercolpaert/hypermedia-as-the-engine-for-route-planning
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aaronpk Not sure
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GWG What is travel?
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, let's talke about it Paris & Dusseldorf
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Loqi travel is a post type about plans to change locations in the future, similar to an event post about a future event, and related to exercise posts that involve changing location https://indiewebcamp.com/travel
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aaronpk aha
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GWG Okay. Someone did
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elf-pavlik i wanted to do something like that aleady in 2012 but keep getting distracted https://github.com/elf-pavlik/buddyradar
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elf-pavlik timbl on rel / rev https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-89789736
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aaronpk Train is arriving! gtg
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elf-pavlik bon voyage!
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/OpenTransport/gtfs-csv2rdf
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elf-pavlik good luck with gtfs-csv2mf2 ;)
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GWG tantek: Did you get to Paris yet?
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tantek kylewm: just saw your question re: custom h-card properties - wondering if it can be done with u-url or rel=me links instead
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 5 hours, 42 minutes ago: here is SWAT0 accomplished with Micropub, Microformats and Webmention. PuSH is mentioned as being an optional enhancement. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430667120302
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tantek aaronpk - nice!
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tantek reads logs and sees aaronpk already suggested same thing to kylewm :)
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elf-pavlik tantek, do you see problem with using http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values as microformat u- properties?
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@chuq @deirdresm Indieweb rocks. (twitter.com/_/status/594979611747885057)
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elf-pavlik like http://microformats.org/wiki/shortlink
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elf-pavlik at least one from xfn might make sense on h-card http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
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elf-pavlik e.g. RSVP +1 comming with my muse https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
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@dangillmor Pager, which lets you make your own site from Facebook posts, is interesting addition to the @indiewebcamp movement https://github.com/antonshevchenko/pager (twitter.com/_/status/594981409422385153)
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elf-pavlik s/one/ones/
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@allenpg RT @dangillmor: Pager, which lets you make your own site from Facebook posts, is interesting addition to the @indiewebcamp movement https:/… (twitter.com/_/status/594982124895150080)
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elf-pavlik can't spell, needs go to sleep to prepare for day full of work on social vocabs: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Day_1_-_Monday_4_May_2015
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tantek elf-pavlik: yes - using anything without a use-case is a problem
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tantek also - page scoped rel values often behave differently than element scoped microformats properties
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elf-pavlik pays attention
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elf-pavlik can we go with example of xfn muse ?
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tantek hasn't been a lot of recent use of rel=muse TBH
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elf-pavlik date?
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tantek we've been pretty liberal about accepting values in the rel registry as long as they seemed like they might have some new usefulness
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elf-pavlik any friend to friend relationships at all which people use in context of indie web?
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tantek rel-muse was used initially for a few years since introduction (like mid 2000s), but in general a lot of the XFN rel values didn't get much use because they were tied to blogroll useage which itself waned over time
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elf-pavlik knows maybe, follows
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tantek rel=contact is used a lot
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elf-pavlik very social ;)
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tantek because it is easy to assert by default
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elf-pavlik can we keep it romantic and imagine RSVP +1 with rel="sweetheart" ?
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tantek any more assertive values like acquaintance, friend etc. get into the emergent strangeness that is a "facebook friend" vs. a "real friend"
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elf-pavlik so we can most likely share bed when allocating sleeping places by people organizing event
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tantek at least that's what we've learned over time by people using XFN, then using only minimal values
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tantek rel=me is the most useful, then likely rel=contact, then rel=met
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aaronpk maybe Dora should link to her favorite brand of cat food with rel=meat
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elf-pavlik they sound bit boring and rel=me even narcistic
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elf-pavlik do you consider RSVP +1 with *sweetheart* unrealistic ?
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tantek do you have any real world publishing examples of that?
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tantek elf-pavlik: rel=me is how IndieAuth works
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tantek at least the RelMeAuth portion of IndieAuth
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aaronpk interesting, i've never publicly RSVP'd with a +1 anywhere, only private RSVPs that are seen only by the event hose
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elf-pavlik aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 791 karma
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elf-pavlik so the host can allocate one bed for me and sweetheart i come with ...
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elf-pavlik i'll add link *friend* to few friends who also come to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
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elf-pavlik they already listed their homepages so i will just add few rels
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tantek elf-pavlik: yes we used to do blog posts with various XFN values
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tantek back when we would mix rel values with content scoping
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elf-pavlik at least 6 ppl there i consider a friend
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tantek a bunch of us would do rel=met posts after a conference
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tantek so you could keep track of who you met when
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elf-pavlik i want to do that!
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tantek but lacking any consuming application, I think we eventually got bored and stopped
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tantek yeah! it was exciting back in 2003-2005 :)
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aaronpk "lacking any consuming application" <-- that is the key to all of this
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aaronpk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 185 karma
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tantek and that consuming application can be *your own website*
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tantek e.g. if your own website code reads your own microformats and does something interesting (to you) with them, even *that* is good enough
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tantek hence why we evolved everything in late 2000s to present to be use-case first, format/protocols second.
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aaronpk now that I think about it, people started doing the rel=met thing again on twitter, but without any structure of course. around 2009-2010 I'd see a looot of tweets like "just had a great chat with @___ over coffee!"
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aaronpk especially around/after conferences
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elf-pavlik tantek, http://lanyrd.com/ let's you say *i want to meet*
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tantek it does - which is an interesting relation!
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elf-pavlik i already had chance to meet aaronpk but would also like publish fact that i want to meet you sir :)
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tantek of course it's also a half-implemented feature - no way to say "I did meet them" in Lanyrd :(
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tantek elf-pavlik: if you like you can add "Want To Meet" as a new heading in microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming, and document the Lanyrd example!
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tantek no need to create a new rel value yet, but just document the real world example and that you would personally use it on your site.
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elf-pavlik ok
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tantek incrementaldocumentation++
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Loqi incrementaldocumentation has 1 karma
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elf-pavlik any chance for IndieAuth on microformats.org ?
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elf-pavlik Permission error
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elf-pavlik You do not have permission to edit pages, for the following reason:
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elf-pavlik You do not have permission to create new pages on Microformats Wiki.
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tantek you shouldn't need to
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Loqi +1
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tantek yeah - IndieAuth would be nice there, the microformats wiki predates that :/
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elf-pavlik missed g
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elf-pavlik we also need *follows* for Social WG use case
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/property/follows
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elf-pavlik since we could use rel / rev i dont see need for follower / following
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KartikPrabhu wasn't rev deprecated and not used anymore
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tantek yes rev is deprecated because it is too confusing to most people and results in bad data
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tantek rev is ignorable
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tantek per usability problems
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tantek elf-pavlik: pretty sure follower / following is in there
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elf-pavlik TimBL encouraded *willful violation* here https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-89789736
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KartikPrabhu also rev=follow is confusing terminology
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elf-pavlik follows
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elf-pavlik knows
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tantek elf-pavlik: I know rev makes sense to TimBL - but he's an exception
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KartikPrabhu yeah I don't see it
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tantek I used to use rev myself
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tantek and gave up when I kept having trouble explaining to people that would make sense to them
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tantek elf-pavlik: here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#follower_and_following
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elf-pavlik some early thoughts on collections which reuse follows relation in both directions https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/container/DirectContainer
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tantek (along with lots of historical discussion and alternatives considered)
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elf-pavlik also needed for Social WG use cases
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tantek elf-pavlik: are you implementing collections on your own site?
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elf-pavlik yes!
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tantek where is it in your itches or working on list?
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tantek elf-pavlik: think of all this as a real world exercise in follow-your-nose
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elf-pavlik edit to microformats.org first ...
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elf-pavlik i exactly want to do that but not end upw with: follower, following, followres, followings
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elf-pavlik and already can think of modeling it with *just* follows
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tantek no that's incorrect as rel values aren't adjectives but nouns
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tantek there are only two values there: follower and following - for this use-case
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elf-pavlik so you would use same one for collection of people you follow and who you follow?
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elf-pavlik singular forms
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KartikPrabhu why do we need a term for the collection?
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elf-pavlik does discussig it in terms of *domain* and *range* of property gives us common language or not so much?
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tantek elf-pavlik: where are you publishing the collection right now on your own site?
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KartikPrabhu mark up all people in the collection with rel=following
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elf-pavlik i have importing list of 2300 friendships from fb on my todo
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tantek elf-pavlik: don't worry so much about the plumbing/markup - just get something published on your site that shows what you mean
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tantek start with just a few
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/issues/5
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KartikPrabhu what is collection?
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Loqi A collection is a type of post that explicitly lists and/or embeds multiple other posts chosen by the author https://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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elf-pavlik tantek, you can clearly see some collections on https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/
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elf-pavlik for now small but soon they will need to move to dedicated pages
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elf-pavlik similar to https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/events
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elf-pavlik https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/friends
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elf-pavlik also with paging
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tantek well when they do, you can document them as real world examples
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elf-pavlik i may hack on that during IWC dusseldorf
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tantek and then we can explore more questions, til then it's unnecessary to do so a priori
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elf-pavlik ok
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tantek elf-pavlik: would be great to see you current list of all the things you're hacking on and wishing you had on your own site
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elf-pavlik i go edit two wiki pages and then sleep time :)
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tantek your "Projecs" heading does not show that
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tantek s/Projecs/Projects
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Loqi tantek meant to say: your "Projects" heading does not show that
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tantek clearly I should get some sleep too :)
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elf-pavlik i did work last days on adding server-sent events to PLP backend and already have https://github.com/substack/forkdb working for it
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elf-pavlik soon i can add collections there but needed to prepare some plumbing to handle it
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elf-pavlik tantek, have you tried *drawing* to explain rel / rev ? i think diagrams like ones i experiment with in public-vocabs can help https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/property/follows
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tantek yes have tried drawing - does not sufficiently help
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elf-pavlik ATM indiewebcamp.org and microformats.org look very text centric
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tantek anyway - rev failed all on its own, despite any attempts by any of us to use it or educate people
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elf-pavlik hmmm... have you published something about your experiences with attempts to explain rel / rev ?
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tantek people are welcome to use it with "willful" violations, but don't expect anyone to write and use any consuming code
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tantek elf-pavlik: ages ago I did
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tantek don't have the pemralinks offhand
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elf-pavlik links? :)
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tantek general things are captured on microformats.org/wiki/rev
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tantek and actually #microformats is better for rel / rev discussions
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tantek rev has never been relevant to indieweb
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tantek elf-pavlik: anyway, I'll continue to encourage you to think about use-cases rather than plumbing (rev)
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elf-pavlik roger!
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GWG Every time I feel I'm close to something practical, I get sidetracked into a pipe dream.
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tantek GWG, stay on target! ;)
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elf-pavlik goodnight #indiewebcamp
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Loqi laila tov!
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GWG tantek: I'm an idea person. I have a tendency to wander around
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GWG My current project which is a combination posting UI/web actions system, has a problem I haven't figured out how to solve.
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tantek GWG, it's ok to be an idea person, just add them when they come up to your "Itches" list
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tantek eventually you'll start repeating yourself and just add more info to existing items
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tantek or you'll be inspired to prioritize them
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elf-pavlik tantek, if you need real world request for mentor/mentee (from http://www.enspiral.com/ ) - https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-docs/issues/12#issuecomment-78043877
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tantek sure - you can add those too
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tantek to that sectin
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tantek s/sectin/section
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Loqi tantek meant to say: to that section
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GWG tantek: Maybe you have an idea to solve my plumbing clog?
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tantek GWG I defer to tommorris ;)
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GWG It's all conceptual.
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GWG I tied pieces together, and I'm trying to figure out how to detangle them so they are interchangeable.
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GWG So, I can either...
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tommorris I am too drunk for conceptual plumbing.
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GWG A. Finish something that works, but needs design improvements.
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GWG B. Go back and fix the issues, then return to finish the posting stuff
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KartikPrabhu HTML not allowing block inside bloxk is annoying!
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KartikPrabhu s/bloxk/block
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: HTML not allowing block inside block is annoying!
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KartikPrabhu making marginalia.js so much more complicated
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GWG Looking at php-comments.
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GWG I think I know what I have to do.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: block inside block? yes you can div div, div blockquote div etc.
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KartikPrabhu errr sorry I meant div inside a p
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tantek p is not really a block
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah I mis-worded that
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tantek KartikPrabhu: but I know what you mean
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tantek sometimes I want to put an inline list in a paragraph (a sentence event) and can't mark it up with ul/ol because of that limitation.
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KartikPrabhu here is an example of the issue: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia the marginalia show/hide buttons are inside the relevant <p> but the actual marginalia has to sit outside it. So I have to use Javascript to show/hide instead of some simple CSS
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KartikPrabhu I could put the show/hide button also outside the <p> but then the marginalia looks as if it has no connection to the relevant <p>
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tantek KartikPrabhu: wow indeed it almost forces you to make each p into a div :(
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KartikPrabhu yes and the point is that marginalia can also be attached to any other element not just <p>s so it is more annoying
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tantek <div class="content-block"><p>…</p>… marginalia stuff here </div>
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tantek (just thinking out loud)
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KartikPrabhu yeah but that won't work for any generic element since marginalia could be attached to the span as in <p> <span>Stuff with marginalia comments</span></p>
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KartikPrabhu so it seems I have to implement some sort of artificial coarse-graining of where marginalia can be attached
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's even better if you can make marginalia work with just spans
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KartikPrabhu I can now. But again Javascript dependence
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tantek can't use CSS for that?
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tantek [x] Show Marginalia <span>...</span>
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KartikPrabhu but the <span> might contain an <ol> of marginalia comments :(
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KartikPrabhu so browsers won't render them inside the span
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aaronpk browsers are that strict now?
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KartikPrabhu at least that's what FF does
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yeah if you want to use lists then you have to do the div thing
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KartikPrabhu yeah :( right now marginalia.js just reuses any markup that the page laready has for its comments. So I don't want to impose some HTML markup on people who might want to use it
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KartikPrabhu so if your original comment container was a <div> then a <div> is used for the marginalia, if it was a <ol> then <ol> is re-used
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tantek KartikPrabhu: sounds to me like we should come up with microformats for marginalia so that the script can use that instead of depending on any specific spans or ul etc.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I think a u-in-reply-to with a fragmention solves that semantic problem. Here, it is more of a "how to best make the UI" issue
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that makes sense!
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aaronpk arg, i can't decide if i should prioritize publishing my checkins on my site over redoing my permalink and storage structure
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aaronpk publishing checkins before that means i have way more URLs to move later
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KartikPrabhu also, I want the UI to work even if marginalia are moved and rendered server-side. WHich is why I want to separate the JS which moves marginalia to the correct place and only use CSS for the UI
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Loqi gives KartikPrabhu the UI to work even if marginalia are moved and rendered server
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KartikPrabhu :P
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tantek aaronpk - highly recommend fixing permalink / storage structure before adding more types
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tantek or do it as part of your checkin post work
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tantek I fixed/improved *a ton* of storage handling when I implemented "like" posts in Falcon and am really glad I did it then as I had a fresh use-case in my head the whole time driving the cleanup of tech debt.
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aaronpk good call. oh man. so much to do
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tantek (one of the reasons "like" posts took me so long. the other reason was all the explicit delibreately methodological up front "open design" I did on them and captured in Brainstorming on the /like page)
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KartikPrabhu man Medium does marginalia in such a terrible way. All marginalia sit outside the main article and then are shown/hidden by Javascript-ness
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