#indiewebcamp 2015-05-05

2015-05-05 UTC
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@NorthCreekSoft I don't think spreadsheets are such a bad idea, but they need to be hybrid desktop/cloud dat hubs #ownyourdata northcreek.ca #databutler (twitter.com/_/status/595382112846503936)
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@NorthCreekSoft I don't think spreadsheets are a bad idea, but they need to be hybrid cloud/desktop data hubs #ownyourdata northcreek.ca #databutler (twitter.com/_/status/595383524838002688)
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@sirmlivesey One for @zebrared. Hopefully this will be in P2 too. - WordPress › WebMention « WordPress Plugins https://wordpress.org/plugins/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/595383895048216577)
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GWG Evening all.
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@kevinmarks @Beschizza @waxpancake @codinghorror we're collecting a list here, though it is more focused on lost data: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/595391671627427841)
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GWG I'm just running random news sites through my code. This is depressing.
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GWG This one mistake appears to have deep routes. An hfeed on every page.
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KevinMarks_ Why is an hfeed so bad if it has a single entry? All feeds start out that way
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GWG I thought on a single page there shouldn't be an h-feed.
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Loqi slack/snarfed: aww andy baio plugged bridgy <http://waxy.org/links/>
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Loqi slack/snarfed: nice compact facepile-meets-tumblr style backfeed display: <http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7596/1/6/#trackback>
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aaronpk reidab: hooray! are you using it for something?
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reidab aaronpk: grabbing a copy of my wordpress site so I have archives to link to when I replace it with a new static site
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aaronpk sweet
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aaronpk it's hard to hack wordpress when it's just HTML file :)
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tantek aaronpk re: https://indiewebcamp.com/File:displaying-likes-from-others.png I think that can be completely done with existing webmentions from replies to original posts, and original posts retrieving all of the reply h-entry and its responses.
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message on 5/4 at 10:15am: here is an example of what i'm talking about. unless we solve this, I would never see the 8 other likes unless I go visit the original post https://indiewebcamp.com/File:displaying-likes-from-others.png http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-04/line/1430759721873
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aaronpk tantek: but the problem is that as a follower of Michael, I wouldn't see those unless I go visit his original post
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KevinMarks why is that a problem?
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KevinMarks excessive notification propagation is a bug, not a feature
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aaronpk it's not a notification!
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tantek aaronpk - that's not a problem - that's existing behavior per that screenshots!
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tantek s/screenshots/screenshot
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk - that's not a problem - that's existing behavior per that screenshot!
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KevinMarks hm, maybe I lost the thread - I thought the debate was about you being sent updates about comments from people you don't follow
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tantek a follower of Michael sees those by visiting the original post, as you did and took the screenshot
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aaronpk no, I saw the post in my own reader interface, which may have been my site or an app like monocle
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KevinMarks and comments from people you don't follow should do what there?
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tantek there's no site / reader that works that way right now
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tantek so I'd say that's leaping too far beyond what works today
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tantek let's at least get posts and comments underneath them auto-updating as you view the post permalink
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tantek because that's clearly simpler than the "saw the post in my own reader interface" that you're describing
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tantek aaronpk, did you ever end up fixing the realtime display of comments made on your posts (maybe only worked for your notes?) ?
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KevinMarks it can also be a pathology to bump the post to the top of the reader every time anyone comments
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tantek KevinMarks: strawman? who said "bump the post to the top of the reader" ?
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KevinMarks G+ did this early on, which meant the top posts in my feed were always Scoble or Vic as they had an existing following
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KevinMarks that is the step below "notify on each subsequent comment"
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tantek.com created /GooglePlus (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek kevinmarks - perhaps document that in /GooglePlus#Criticism
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+43) "/* Facebook */ add screenshot" (view diff)
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tantek aaropnk - when you have a moment - a plain version of that screenshot would be helpful for multiple purposes (without the Skitch annotations)
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voxpelli aaronpk: tantek: one hard part with parsing responses to responses for me at least is that all such responses are embedded with js with my endpoint – so they are not curlable right now
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voxpelli so I would need some fallback that links to HTML page on my endpoint and saying that that's the place/the feed where responses can be found
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tantek voxpelli: might be an opportunity to figure out an API there, or some rel= link delegation to responses to a post
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tantek yeah, like that :)
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voxpelli tantek: yeah, wonder what a good API / rel-name would be?
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tantek e.g. (just thinking out loud) a reply post could link with rel=responses to an HTML page that itself was a bunch of h-entrys that were responses to that reply.
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tantek that could be inside the <noscript> fallback too - for user visibility
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voxpelli +1, then my javascript could just be a way of inlining that rel-responses more or less
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tantek <noscript><a rel="responses" href="…webmentions proxy …">View Responses</a></noscript>
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tantek next to the <script> embed in the post that displays the responses inline
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tantek this is good practice anyway - to provide a no-JS option
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tantek or perhaps even do so as a default even without <noscript>, that was replaced with the inline responses
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tantek <div class="responses"><script src="…webmentions proxy…"></script><a rel="responses" href="…webmentions proxy …">View Responses</a></div>
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voxpelli yeah, I think I would go with having it outside of a noscript – I need a mechanism for supporting multiple embeds on the same page anyway, this would solve that as well
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tantek and then the script could look for and replace the rel=responses link with the inline responses.
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tantek cool
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tantek this also works if the script just fails to load
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tantek the user is left with a clickable hyperlink
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tantek graceful degradation
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voxpelli yeah, never really felt good about not having it degrade gracefully
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tantek so perhaps it's about time we solved that :)
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tantek the rel=responses link (that the webmentions proxy renders the destination of) - could also pull in the original post as context and render it at the top
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tantek at a minimum it could start with just a "View Original Post" link
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tantek that linked back to the original post
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voxpelli Good idea – I created an issue for it all in my project: https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/issues/18
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tantek.com edited /responses (-21) "interactions also, not instead of" (view diff)
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tantek btw if you come up with better name for rel="responses", feel free to propose alternatives - that was just off the top of my head based on people's opinions in https://indiewebcamp.com/interactions#Responses
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aaronpk just caught up with the discussion, interesting
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aaronpk that was one of my thoguhts on solving this as well, but at the root domain level as well, not just on individual posts
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aaronpk so that readers would have a place to look for all responses to someone's site, and could decide what to do with those as they come in
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/status/595504514741972993
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@caitlinmoran Twitter’s reputation is of a place where people regularly get savaged, then leave. It’s so ripe for another platform to take over from it. (twitter.com/_/status/595504514741972993)
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/BethanyBlack/status/595505011465035776
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@BethanyBlack @caitlinmoran i've been thinking that a lot recently. And as soon as there is a better platform I'm off. (twitter.com/_/status/595505011465035776)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facebook-post-with-responses.png]]""
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voxpelli KevinMarks: too bad so few people can see anything else than a silo as a "platform" :P
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/status/595505340210348032
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@caitlinmoran No platform can erase all abuse. But it’s all about sending out signals, & Twitter seem very relaxed about it. No big public statements. (twitter.com/_/status/595505340210348032)
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petermolnar voxpelli there's a good reason for that: how do you discover "trends" with indieweb?
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aaronpk google seems to have figured it out
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aaronpk http://www.google.com/trends/
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pfefferle good morning
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petermolnar google will mess ranking based on many-many things a small site will most probably never reach anymore
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aaronpk !tell tantek here's the plain screenshot https://indiewebcamp.com/File:facebook-post-with-responses.png
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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voxpelli petermolnar: that was no problem in the good old blogosphere, there were a big diversity amongst trend detectors
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petermolnar the good old blogsphere was basically a self-organized online magazine with selectors and editors
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petermolnar but those selectors are mostly gone; at least those I know
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KevinMarks our trend detectors were hard to scale
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petermolnar true :D
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voxpelli KevinMarks: do you think that would still be the case if one would build them today? Thinking new tech and more powerful servers can have helped
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KevinMarks the daily grind at technorati was reclassifying things that popped up in our top blogs ranking as non-blogs for various reasons
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@yatil @msslovi0 Zur @btconf bin ich schon in Austin/Texas für #AccessU, verpasse also alles :-( Versuche es trotz Streik zum IndieWebCamp (Sa) (twitter.com/_/status/595514965513109504)
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KevinMarks the sheer weight of spam was huge
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KevinMarks (especially in languages we didn't read)
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KevinMarks but also marking news sites and ad sites as non blogs
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tantek which could have been done by community instead of just the company
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voxpelli Sounds familiar to some of the things we're seeing now at Bloglovin
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 3 minutes ago: here's the plain screenshot https://indiewebcamp.com/File:facebook-post-with-responses.png http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-05/line/1430816661657
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KevinMarks except a lot of the community were dancing between spam and promotion
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voxpelli I wonder if layering the social graph on top of blogs would help solve that – people don't tend to interact with spammers so just checking for trends within a limited social graph should auto-audit content more or less
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voxpelli not that there's much "just" in actually layering a social graph on top of blogs of course
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KevinMarks ur best signal at 'rati was "using the same adsense or other affiliate key across multiple blogs"
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KevinMarks which meant we found all the "promote youreslef" bloggers who were also runnning malware/sketchy adsense blogs on the side
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+0) "/* Facebook */ update screenshot" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: indeed - and we had enough sites using XFN and blogrolls to do that, but there was perhaps too much focus on centralized "pinging" and growing volume (number of blogs & posts indexed)
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KevinMarks yes, the metrics focus is a pathology too
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tantek perhaps classic challenge of being VC funded, and general "bigger is better" type assumptions driving suboptimal behaviors
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voxpelli yeah :/
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tantek silos and monocultures are driven similarly
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petermolnar that raises the question of a similar system, but community funded - I mean, for example, giving in resource powers like the Seti software, therefore there would be no hardware/cloud bill behind it, and we 'only' need the selectors
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petermolnar but that kind of sounds like reddit
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tantek petermolnar: worse still, if/when a monoculture is community funded, it perpetuates that antipattern, or perhaps even causes it to happen (from a diverse community to a monoculture because of funding biases)
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petermolnar I should have used shared/distributed instead of community founded
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Loqi it is probable
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petermolnar thank you, Loqi
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Loqi :)
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voxpelli something that consumes the social graph between indieweb people and their respective firehose and then processes that in interesting ways would be cool
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voxpelli doing some content analysis like http://blog.algorithmia.com/post/93293999119/create-your-own-machine-learning-powered-rss
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petermolnar I've addressing this issue during the last IndieWeb Brighton, but that time, it as not an importance :P
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petermolnar s/it as/it was/
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: I've addressing this issue during the last IndieWeb Brighton, but that time, it was not an importance :P
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voxpelli I think we're at a state right now where it is feasible to start experimenting with different approaches to try to establish patterns for how it may work
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petermolnar what might actually work: every indieweb site could have a list of followed blog; from these, a database could be build of keywords and with every post on your own site you could mention the followed sites as possible interesting reads
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petermolnar but that's still not the same as a silo where you have it in your 'own' account
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KevinMarks this is planetplanet ?
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tantek petermolnar: "a list of followed blog" we had that - blogrolls - but they turned stale - and people abandoned them
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tantek better luck with just analyzing links from blog posts to find other blogs
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petermolnar tantek that'd mean that indieweb members are no connected little islands, which is not really the way it should be
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tantek rather than sidelinks and claims of followed blogs
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petermolnar the link analyzing is a pretty good idea
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voxpelli the list of followed blog could be made non-stale by making indie-readers base their data on those lists (perhaps even with micropub support for following new stuff)
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tantek petermolnar: and you can seed with /irc-people ;)
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petermolnar an irc channel as new distributor, interesting :)
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petermolnar s/new/news/
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: an irc channel as news distributor, interesting :)
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petermolnar ( I think my keyboard is dieing o.O )
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tantek petermolnar: indirectly so - /irc-people requires (1) signing in with IndieAuth - a good filter, and (2) is community maintained - thus bad actors can be removed by community discussion
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voxpelli what is social graph?
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Loqi A social graph is a network of social profiles/identities and relationships between them, either on a single site like a silo, across the web, or in-person connections https://indiewebcamp.com/social_graph
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voxpelli Feeding such a one with irc-people and then consuming all of their firehose -> all data needed for analysis :)
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tantek.com edited /notification (+192) "/* Silo Examples */ add Twitter with screenshot from Android" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /notification (-192) "Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Tantek.com|Tantek.com]] ([[User talk:Tantek.com|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ben.thatmustbe.me|Ben.thatmustbe.me]]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /notification (+31) "/* Platform Examples */ clear float between sections" (view diff)
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@bookprescom 3 Ways to Find and Win New #SEO Clients by @dariozadro >> http://www.searchenginejournal.com/?p=130224&utm_content=buffer81971&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Dario Zadro. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/595528366159175680)
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tantek !block bookprescom
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Loqi Got it! There are now 20 spammers blacklisted
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@kaatje36 RT @benborges_: #letsencrypt + #indieweb + citizen journalism & reporting = a recipe I will explore in the next couple of month that will c… (twitter.com/_/status/595533469389819904)
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petermolnar that tweet reminded me to ask: is anyone already using letsencrypt.org?
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petermolnar I know it's not active yet, but there might be some insiders among us
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GWG Good morning, all.
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petermolnar good morning GWG
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petermolnar GWG do you think my reactions importer plugin (hb112toolserver-01 ) could make it to the indieweb plugin list? Technically it's a backfeed plugin, so it might be useful.
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petermolnar ctrl-v I hate you
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petermolnar https://wordpress.org/plugins/keyring-reactions-importer/ is in the ()
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GWG petermolnar: Why not? The Indieweb list is a list of recommended or required plugins for Indieweb.
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GWG I'm not sure if there is any specific criteria except community recommendations
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GWG Pfefferle, I owe you a pull request, by the way
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GWG Tantek, I'm confused about something. Would you be able to help break it down for me?
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GWG Does one insert a h-feed on a post?
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GWG I thought so until I got a dissenting opinion
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tantek GWG, you could, as an explicit way to communicate that you're offering the stream of responses as a feed.
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tantek FB does have a notion of (un)subscribing to updates to a post.
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GWG tantek: My issue is that a large percentage of Wordpress themes embed hfeed in every header.
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GWG Without discrimination.
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GWG It isn't a decision, it appears to have become a default
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tantek it's not an issue for the home page for example
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tantek or archive pages
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tantek or search results, tag results etc.
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GWG tantek: No. But on a page with a single h-entry?
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tantek it's a bit odd there - as the top level object on a post permalink page should be the h-entry, not an h-feed
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GWG tantek: I am trying to get it changed.
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tantek GWG, to get it changed, it would be best to have a solid proposal / methodology to do so
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tantek rather than just one-off fixes
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GWG tantek: I am trying to get it changed in the starter theme that is the basis for a large number of Wordpress themes.
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tantek yes - that's a bigger change and should likely have a more comprehensive approach
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tantek rather than just removing one class name
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GWG Talking them into microformats2 is more complicated
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tantek I don't think it's a good idea to remove things without proposing a replacement
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tantek otherwise you get all the proprietary metacrap instead, which is WORSE
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GWG I did propose adding one extra line of code to fix it
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GWG Either way, I already proposed a replacement.
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tantek URL?
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GWG https://github.com/Automattic/_s/issues/740
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GWG tantek: Not the best solution.
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tantek GWG, thanks for your comment on https://github.com/Automattic/_s/issues/591
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tantek let's keep iterating on that
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tantek in fact can you add a new section about "microformats support" to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress and note that issue?
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GWG tantek: I plan to submit a patch myself as otherwise no interest in mf2
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tantek GWG it would be worth responding to and debunking some of the schema stuff
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GWG tantek: I took their advice ti heart and wanted to do that at the core Wordpress level
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tantek cool
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tommorris I'm not seeing the "schema stuff" tantek has noted
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tommorris also, inclusion of microformats2 and inclusion of schema (using rdfa) aren't incompatible, as my site continues to prove. :)
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tantek tommorris: sorry - two levels deep in links
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tommorris tantek: did you see http://microformats.org/wiki/neaby-metro-station btw? because design work in progress: http://imgur.com/23RbCR0
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tommorris designing and documenting existing practices are two sides of the same coin. :)
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tantek tommorris: neat - what is pulse?
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Loqi Pulse may refer to the ind.ie project of the same name or LinkedIn Pulse [1] https://indiewebcamp.com/Pulse
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tommorris nightclub
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tommorris ha.
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tantek add to disambig ^^^ ;)
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tommorris.org edited /Pulse (+40) "disambigging some more" (view diff)
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@Renaade Ach, ihr seid lieb *schnüff*. Brauchte mal etwas Ruhe. Am WE IndieWebCamp und nächste Wochen Textinen-Workshop-WE. https://twitter.com/dieMelanie/status/595555787486924800 (twitter.com/_/status/595582415529185280)
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: is there any way to tell how many users on brid.gy these days?
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed
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benborges ben_thatmustbeme, it's on the bottom part of the site
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benborges 1,689 users, 1,207,607 responses handled, 485,985 links analyzed, 146,703 webmentions sent, 4,962 posts published, 15,933 blog posts processed and counting...
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.brid.gy/twitter/waxpancake
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ben_thatmustbeme huh
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ben_thatmustbeme need to get an estimate of number of users of Known, that would be interesting too
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@mapkyca For those who missed it, here's how to run Known as a Tor hidden service: https://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2015/04/29/running-known-as-a-tor-hidden-service/?utm_content=bufferd1607&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/595609160911351808)
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@andkjaer Meeter Launches Smart Meeting Service on iOS, Android >> http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/?p=619491&utm_content=buffer923f8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Brandy Shaul. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/595617991322140672)
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@kevinmarks Pastry-box confuses Facebook's preview finder #indieweb https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/595622439951826944/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/595622439951826944)
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@pcosdeaf RT @kevinmarks: Pastry-box confuses Facebook's preview finder #indieweb https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/595622439951826944/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/595623120125431810)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@smmrcr a people-focused alternative to the ‘corporate web’. https://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/595630048738062336)
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@martinlindner gerade erst durch die #rp15-talkliste gescrollt: das ist ja alles irgendwie mit #medien? kann es sein, dass es da nichts zum #indieweb gibt? (twitter.com/_/status/595636794525376513)
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KartikPrabhu was reading this: http://alistapart.com/article/building-nonlinear-narratives-for-the-web and had a thought. Would be cool if webmention can be used to contribute to a collection. Why? This way one could build a collaborative multi-author story/post thoughts.. ?
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aaronpk Sounds like syndicating to IndieNews
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it could - but start with the presentation - how would you sensibly link to a collection as a way of saying to human viewers that you were contributing to a collection
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tantek ?
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KartikPrabhu possibly. but how do it on my own site if I want to host such a collection? I think contributions would be different from replies
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tantek probably
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tantek kind of like /edit posts
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KartikPrabhu tantek: My initial thoughts are collection has a URL and the contribution post uses "contribution-to" to link to it ... ?
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aaronpk hmm I already have collection posts... I wonder what it'd take to add that
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tantek the reason I'm comparing to /edit - is that a contribution sounds a lot like a pull request
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KartikPrabhu and fragmentions to insert content between previous content
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KartikPrabhu tantek: good point. WIll investigate
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tantek KartikPrabhu take a look at how Flickr does "groups" where you can add photos to groups as a way of "contributing" to a "collection"
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tantek that is maintained by multiple people
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KartikPrabhu look like I should get a Flickr to investigate its UI
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aaronpk flickr++
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Loqi flickr has 0 karma
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aaronpk aw haha
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KartikPrabhu yeah the -1 was me for using JS for a stupid image embed
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tantek yes - definitely worth doing so - Flickr has done A LOT of innovation for >10 years in social web related UIs and features
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I'm vaguely aware of it since a friends uses it a lot for photos. But I am wary of putting my photos there since they are poorly handeled by Yahoo!
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tantek agreed - at this point just use it for testing
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tantek but use "real" content so you don't get marked as spam :P
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aaronpk That reminds me... I need to set up my flickr archiver again
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KartikPrabhu I recall that my friends and I, started experimenting with contributed fiction on Google Wave. It was pretty cool
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@skddc Lots of @unhosted folks at IndieWebCamp DUS this weekend. \o/ (twitter.com/_/status/595652303916539906)
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snarfed yay bridgy's new fb permission requests were granted!
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snarfed kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 163 karma
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snarfed that will fix https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/394 and https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/393
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kylewm \o/
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snarfed slowly digging out from under the fb v2.0 api apocalypse…despite the fact that we (thought we) upgraded beforehand :P
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kylewm i wonder if there was a way we could've tested what our effective permissions would be before they happened
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kylewm a Test User or something
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snarfed yup i'm sure we could have
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snarfed we were only somewhat responsible, not fully :P
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snarfed sideprojects
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snarfed er, sideprojects~~
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snarfed (whatever's between — and ++ :P)
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@oSoftDev Another product page down, several to go :) #indiedev #indieweb #webdev http://www.osoftdev.com/osd_products/HalloweenHauntings/Default.aspx (twitter.com/_/status/595659126669205504)
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@RikMende Time to update to latest #known #indieweb http://www.rmendes.net/2015/time-to-update-to-latest-known-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/595663799346159616)
KevinMarks_, interactivist, KevinMarks__, chalettu, wolftune, snarfed, KartikPrabhu, frzn, nloadholtes, Leeky, Tsyesika, tvn, friedcell, mlncn, benwerd, marcthiele, lukebrooker, ramsey_, jacus_, voxpelli_, modem_, cmhobbs_, JonathanNeal, tantek, KevinMarks, j12t and LCyrin joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme woah, bridgy just sent a whole bunch of stuff again... and I guess my dedup isn't quite working....
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/article/2014/9/7/4/hello_facebook_hopefully
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: sorry, yeah, probably fb api v2.0 apocalypse fallout. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/393#issuecomment-99173608