#indiewebcamp 2015-05-15

2015-05-15 UTC
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tantek bret - I don't have micropub support yet :(
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bret i know, but I'm curious specific needs falcon would need
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bret would it be just created a new file? or would we need to xpath into some bim file with new content? that sort of thing
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tantek probably more like the latter - though with a DOM AppendChild kind of thing
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tantek that's currently how I automatically store syndication URLs after POSSEing to Twitter
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GWG Good evening
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tantek bret - do you have a minute to help with documenting some /webaction fallback URLs?
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GWG What is going on with Yoast?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "going on with Yoast" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=going+on+with+Yoast&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-14%2Fline%2F1431649064037
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tantek.com edited /webactions (-74) "/* History */ merge 2012 sections" (view diff)
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GWG I use Yoast, but I've been thinking of dropping it in favor of adding my own markup.
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[permalinks]] to [[permalink]] over redirect: singular" (view diff)
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gRegorLove GWG: See /WordPress_SEO_by_Yoast and feel free to add yourself to an examples section.
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loqi.me created /URL_slug (+17) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /URL_slugs (+17) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: I thought we already had a page about slugs
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gRegorLove redirects
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tantek got it
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GWG I actually do have something to add
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GWG https://make.wordpress.org/core/2014/10/29/title-tags-in-4-1/
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tantek.com edited /logo (+92) "add 500px version" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /logo (+340) (view diff)
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bret tantek: walking home right now
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tantek.com edited /logo (+0) "/* Square Icon */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress_SEO_by_Yoast (+1108) (view diff)
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kylewm GWG: why does it say bad practice to add the blog title after the post name?
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kylewm blog name after the post title*
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Vendan hrm, https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuthProtocol#5._Redirect_to_web_application shows a http 302 to redirect from the auth endpoint back to the site
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GWG It was a bad practice to have the theme do that.
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Vendan potentially dangerous, as a 302 says in the specs to send the exact same request to that url
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GWG kylewm: Although I'm not sure if there is an advantage to automatically adding it to the title tag
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Vendan and if they got that response back from a post with their username/password, that would cause them to make a post with username/password to the web app (not many browsers do this according to spec, but a 303 is spec for "make a GET to this url")
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GWG kylewm: I think Otto said it the best. https://make.wordpress.org/core/2014/10/29/title-tags-in-4-1/#comment-24793
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kylewm GWG: cool makes sense, for once i should've read the commetns
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GWG kylewm: I think it explains the inconsistency. It isn't Yoast exactly.
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gRegorLove Sometimes I wish browsers would 'extend' the page so an anchor link near the bottom still works, bringing the content right to the top of the window
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kylewm Vendan: OAuth2 spec uses 302 ... https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749#section-1.7
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gRegorLove Took me a moment to figure out which comment to read
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Vendan kylewm, "is considered to be an implementation detail"
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kylewm right, i didn't say "requires" i said "uses"
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Vendan just saying, it's a potentially dangerous example
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Vendan so indieauth is a simplified oauth2?
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kylewm indieauth is an implementation of OAuth2
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Vendan k
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Vendan cool, there's things that weren't really explained in the spec on the wiki
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kylewm is reading http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html#sec10.3.3
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Vendan read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_302
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Vendan 2616 rewrote what 302 means
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Vendan and, 2616 added 303 and 307 to specify exactly how to handle get vs post
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gRegorLove Related: http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2014/02/http-308-incompetence-expected.html
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kylewm Vendan: so you're saying, if instead of indieauth.com, you used an implementation that is username/password. you POST your username/password, and in response it 302 redirects you back to the redirect_uri?
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Vendan yeah, with the token and such as query params
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Vendan under a 1.0 compliant browser, your username and password will get posted to that app
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kylewm and if the browser followed the spec it would POST to that redirect_url instead of GET?
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Vendan not saying that's common or anything, but anything that follows the new spec of ask first will honor a 303 and convert the request into a plain GET
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kylewm indieweb is pragmatic :)
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@progunbobby #gunsense RT progunbobby: #gunsense #gunsense #gunsense Just got these in today! Help me support #Local #IndieAuth… https://twitter.com/verbingmynouns/status/599008594558898178/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/599021970722791425)
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KartikPrabhu errr ^
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Vendan hrm, so that sucks
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Vendan the standard indieauth stuff doesn't seem to work with http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuthProtocol
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Vendan "Support for your own IndieAuth server is coming soon!"... lovely
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@MicropubInfo about 6 hours ago: Posting this via Quill - https://quill.p3k.io - using Indieauth and Micropub. Thanks to Be... https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.leoville.net/2015/posting-this-via-quill-----using-indieauth-and-micropub&ct=ga&cd=CAIyHDNlNjg4ODQzODIxNzA0ZmU6Y28udWs6ZW46R0I&usg=AFQjCNGn8fAAT_bUAtSAj0yV9x3ECwMXlg&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/599030537726996480)
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kylewm Vendan: you can log into reader.kylewm.com with your own indieauth implementation
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Vendan cool
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kylewm also quill.p3k.io i'm pretty sure
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kylewm although that needs micropub
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gRegorLove Where's that, Vendan? I don't know much about IndieAuth, but I thought at least one other person (cweiske) has set up their own IndieAuth server
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aaronpk i'm pretty sure every micropub client doesn't use indieauth.com
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kylewm good point
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Vendan true, though the wiki and such do
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kylewm yeah the wiki plugin uses indieauth.com
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Vendan gRegorLove, building an indieauth server library here: https://github.com/andyleap/goindieauth
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gRegorLove I think that's mostly Mediawiki plugin being a pain in the neck
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aaronpk yeah things that use indieauth for just login, not authorization, are more likely to use indieauth.com
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GWG I'm trying to set my Indieweb goal for the weekend.
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Vendan kylewm: got a "Login error: authorization failed. Unknown Error: Unknown Error" error is most likely my end, but any ideas what it might be?
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Vendan nvm, figured it out and fixed it
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Vendan woo, I can now login using indieauth without having to rely on a third party server!
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aaronpk yay
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Loqi woot
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Vendan ugh, anyone on that's implemented a token endpoint?
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kylewm yep?
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Vendan is it just me, or does a token endpoint seem little different then indieauthprotocol with a code response type?
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Vendan afaict, the token endpoint stuff seems *identical* to step 6 on http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuthProtocol
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kylewm hmm, I don't remember it being particularly weird
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Vendan may just be http://indiewebcamp.com/token-endpoint is confusing
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Vendan is your source up anywhere?
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kylewm yes, https://github.com/kylewm/redwind/blob/master/redwind/micropub.py#L24
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Vendan ahhh, so it's indieauth, then, when you get the code, instead of verifying it, pass it off to the token endpoint to get the access token
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Vendan thanks, that makes more sense
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kylewm yeah, typically with oauth2, it's the same server providing the authorization code and the access token, but aaronpk split them up so they could conceivably be two different sources
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kylewm but it's the same flow as normal, you get a temporary code, and then exchange it for a permanent access token
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Vendan well, here goes, I made a indieauth endpoint in a few hours, I got most of the start of my micropub endpoint done
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Vendan now I just need to get a token endpoint done
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kylewm awesome!
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Vendan still being held together with some hacksauce glue, but WOO
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Vendan one of my goals is to build as much of it as libraries as possible
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KartikPrabhu Vendan++ on such rapid indieweb progress
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Loqi Vendan has 6 karma
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KartikPrabhu is unfortunately too busy with other things to really build indieweb things
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Vendan I saw indiewebify.me on HN last saturday? and was like "That's awesome!"
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KartikPrabhu the HN response was a bit disappointing though. Most people didn't seem to get the point
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kylewm vendan++
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Loqi vendan has 7 karma
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I feel like you just described everything posted on HN ever?
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ben_thatmustbeme Vendan: ownyourgram has done of the best walk through for implementing a token endpoint
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Vendan it's implemented, now just tracking down bugs
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Vendan http://vendaria.net/post/yNir1Qq01qV3
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Vendan WOOOOOOOO
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Vendan micropub!
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Vendan still some stuff to work on, like scope selection in the indieauth section
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Vendan but at least now I don't have to deal with building a post ui right away, as I can just use Quill
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: tbh that is the only thread I have actually visited on HN ever
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KartikPrabhu my impression of Internet forums/comments is not favourable
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@commonstandard IndieWeb - a people-focused alternative to the ‘corporate web’ http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/599075251964612608)
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rhiaro So I indiereposted something that aaronpk had possed to twitter, then pasted the URL into bridgy publish and it knew to retweet aaron's possed version even though the possed version had no link back in HOW DID IT KNO- oh the syndication link in the original post, thanks for being my rubber duck indiewebcamp
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rhiaro goes to add syndication markup to everything
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rhiaro but now my repost shows up twice at the bottom of aaronpk's post, one for my site and one for twitter, though the twitter one doesn't get the twitter icon over it
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petermolnar GWG are you around?
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@ajspadial 2) Pa la peña de @indiewebcamp @unhosted ya @IndieHosters, por faer fácil la rede comu yo la entiendo. Gracies pol enllaz @Leidan (twitter.com/_/status/599134858246529026)
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petermolnar !tell GWG you asked do we still need for WordPress: a follow/aggregator plugin. I know we have whisperfollow but I could not get that working
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@andkjaer Facebook Announces http://internet.org/?utm_content=buffer2bd05&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer Platform >> http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/?p=619662&utm_content=bufferb8054&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Justin Lafferty. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/599151486464032768)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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ajspadial Hi #indiewebcamp
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indiewebcamp
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Vendan good morning
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GWG Good morning
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Loqi GWG: petermolnar left you a message 4 hours, 7 minutes ago: you asked do we still need for WordPress: a follow/aggregator plugin. I know we have whisperfollow but I could not get that working http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-15/line/1431680326549
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petermolnar so, what do you think:?
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GWG petermolnar: What would it look like?
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GWG I'm trying to picture it. I've seen Whisperfollow.
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petermolnar I'd do an admin-only interface, kind of like an rss-reader, with reply/repost/like/etc buttons
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petermolnar those would send webmentions
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GWG Let me think about that. I run tt-rss on my server for RSS right now. I wonder if it can give me some ideas.
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petermolnar I'm still using rss2email; it made me realize how un-user-friendly it is
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petermolnar hm
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petermolnar what if... we have an endpoint, which accepts "follow" requests and which sends a webmention type=ping/update to all the followers about the updates? pubsub with webmention, bacically, I know it might just reinvent the wheel, but still
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Vendan why not just implement simplified pubsub?
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Vendan nothing about pubsub says you need a hub or anything
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petermolnar pubsub is not robust enough imho; this would be more like newsletters used to be
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Vendan what's "not robust" about it?
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GWG I'm just trying to picture it within the WordPress framework
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petermolnar I might be mixing it up with the redis pubsub, but in redis' case, if you're not listening at the point of the pub, the event is lost
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Vendan if you don't return a 2xx code to the "hub", the hub MUST consider it a failure and retry
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Vendan well, SHOULD retry, but it still MUST consider it a failure
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petermolnar I meant from the client perspective
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Vendan that's what I'm talking about
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Vendan if a subscriber doesn't return a 2xx from the content distribution endpoint, it MUST be considered failure
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Vendan https://superfeedr-misc.s3.amazonaws.com/pubsubhubbub-core-0.4.html#contentdistribution
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Vendan and I have yet to hear of a diff for html in any spec, so each content distribution needs the full content of the notification anyways
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GWG petermolnar: I remember discussing a follow and unfollow post type...where a post was made indicating one or the other.
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petermolnar a webmention should be enough for that notification
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voxpelli petermolnae: GWG: I'm thinking indie-reader -> micropub -> WordPress-site -> publishes follow activity -> WebMentions the followed URL
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voxpelli no need to have the indie-reader be part of the same WordPress-installation as the user's profile
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Vendan personally, the way I see it, most sites are going to have PuSH so that indie-reader type stuff works smoothly, so the follow activity should both webmention and subscribe for PuSH
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GWG petermolnar: Maybe, but in an activity stream, following is a common action.
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GWG voxpelli: By that token, it might not be built into Wordpress, only integrated
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voxpelli talked a bit about that with Julien of Superfeedr about micropub + follow support in SubToMe: https://twitter.com/voxpelli/status/591313486132736000
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@voxpelli @julien51 To go all Indieweb on you: Perhaps Micropub-support in Subtome – publish follow activity to ones blog which could then WebMention? (twitter.com/_/status/591313486132736000)
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GWG What is SubToMe?
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Loqi SubToMe is a button content publishers can put on their sites which enables users to subscribe to their feed in whatever reader they choose — sort of a universal follow button https://indiewebcamp.com/SubToMe
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kodfabrik.se edited /SubToMe (+66) "Adding my blog as an IndieWeb example" (view diff)
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petermolnar that subtome idea I like a lot
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petermolnar and I also think I need a coffee because I just wrote an English sentence with non-English grammer
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petermolnar s/grammer/grammar/
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: and I also think I need a coffee because I just wrote an English sentence with non-English grammar
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: and cc tantek when he will eventually read these logs, the notifications should be able to include other people, yes. But usually you only get a subset of the activities they do (facebook). I'm thinking maybe we should list all the ways sites do it. Facebook gives you notifications of any updates to your posts (likes, comments, etc), as well as (some) updates from people who are close friends
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ben_thatmustbeme G+ is odd in that you get notifications on any updates to your own posts as well as any updates to posts you have commented on (which can get pretty noisy)
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GWG petermolnar: Did you ever look at my Web Actions plugin?
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petermolnar I did but to be honest, I need to refresh my memories
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GWG It's the one that has the reply, like, etc setup so you could send replies into your site using a URL.
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GWG Okay, photo posting UI times out on mobile. Darn
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petermolnar.eu edited /SubToMe (+102) "/* Indieweb Examples */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu (-317) "/* my stuff for WordPress */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu (+317) "/* website setup */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu (-192) (view diff)
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Vendan hrm, so micropub and indieauth stuff is all working nicely, I guess I should get webmention workin
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zachdonovan good afternoon, indieweb!
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oddvar hey guys, are you taking proposals for talks/sessions for indie web camp portland?
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Vendan good afternoon to you too, my good sir
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aaronpk oddvar: indiewebcamp is unconference style, so the schedule is set the morning of the event
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kylewm Oddvar: You're welcome to discuss your idea here or add it to the wiki event page though
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aaronpk it's also more collaborative session style rather than presentations
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aaronpk it is always nice to get ideas of what people are intereste din before hand, we've had a section on the wiki to collect session ideas before the camp in the past
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oddvar yes, that's the vibe I got from the wiki :)
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oddvar ok cool
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Vendan I don't know if there's anyone else from the central north carolina region on here, but I would be interested in a remote IWC party in Winston-Salem, NC
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Vendan I might be able to talk the hackerspace I'm a member at into letting me open up the doors for the party, so we'd have a couple rooms with tables/chairs, wifi, and a bigscreen tv and projector
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aaronpk that'd be cool! we're going to try to broadcast as much as possible from pdx
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Vendan heh, well, I can probably arrange to have the projector stream what you broadcast in the one room
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Vendan I'll double check with the guys at the hackerspace and see what they think of it
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GWG That reminds me that I need to plan if I can come
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KevinMarks_ hmm, when I search for indieweb on facebook I get http://indieweb.co/
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aaronpk weird, from the TOS, "by and between IndieWeb.co, an AZ individual ("IndieWeb.co") and you"
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aaronpk why would IndieWeb.co be the name of a person?
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KevinMarks_ legla person
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KevinMarks_ I applied to get the instant articles docs on behalf of indieweb
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aaronpk whoa
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KevinMarks_ :D
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KevinMarks_ not doubt they'll ignore me
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KevinMarks_ but if they are parsing html to make articels I think that's in our scope
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aaronpk there is no record of indieweb.co in arizona
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KevinMarks_ no indieweb in us trademark database
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KevinMarks_ hm https://twitter.com/zooko/status/599248269164695553
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@zooko @AlecMuffett I firmly believe that today 99.99% of users never parse URLs, and we could just stuff public keys and hashes into all of them. (twitter.com/_/status/599248269164695553)
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aaronpk interestingly i've been noticing a trend of brands moving away from putting their URLs on things and instead just putting hashtags
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rhiaro jnjknk'\
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aaronpk so much for that password :P
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KevinMarks_ hashtags are the new aol keywords
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KevinMarks_ or something
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aaronpk i dunno, it's not like you can register them
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aaronpk and it's primarily user-generated content on hashtags
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aaronpk and they exist on multiple silos, not just one
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KevinMarks_ right
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KevinMarks_ human-menaingful and decentralised, not secure
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rhiaro oops I was juggling laptop, charger, mug of tea, german guys running the hallways, and door key. Guess jnjknk'/ sums up how I feel about that.
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Vendan heh, my post permalinks are unix nanoseconds
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KevinMarks_ because golang is that fast...
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Vendan no, I mean http://vendaria.net/post/xLCL1QqckumMAg==
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Vendan xLCL1QqckumMAg== is the nanosecond the post was created
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KevinMarks_ you could probably go with a lower resolution
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Vendan stored as 2 varints, then base64 encoded
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Vendan I need to build a better ID for my DB, really
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KevinMarks_ given that I shipped something with URLs like http://ask.willsomeone.com/showask?askid=ag5zfndpbGwtc29tZW9uZXIkCxIHQXNrbGlzdCIHc29tZW9uZQwLEgNBc2sYgICAgODazQsM
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KevinMarks_ I can't really criticise
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Vendan I may just end up making it something like http://vendaria.net/post/Post-Title-Here/xLCL1QqckumMAg==
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Vendan KevinMarks_, what is that ask.willsomeone.com running on?
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KevinMarks_ appengine, so those are google's IDs (I was going to use something else, but Chris liked having obscure URLs to imply non-dicsoverability)
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snarfed KevinMarks_: Key('Asklist', 'someone', 'Ask', 6534217215246336) ? :P
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snarfed (sorry for being obnoxious; couldn't help it)
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KevinMarks_ heh
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KevinMarks_ you broke my secret code
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KevinMarks_ (currently undoing the code change from the other dev that makes lots of separate datastore queries per page)
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snarfed :+1:
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snarfed asyncing them? or just dropping them?
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KevinMarks_ denormalising (It's the broken user model - not having names by default means they were stored elsewhere, and the join was written niavely)
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KartikPrabhu oh noes: this week in Indiewebcamp was marked as Spam by Gmail!!
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kylewm gmail--
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Loqi gmail has 0 karma
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snarfed emaildeliverability--
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Loqi emaildeliverability has -1 karma
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snarfed such a tar pit
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: it'd be interesting to know why, Fastmail has it as 0.0% spam
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ for a UI to get fragmention from selected text, do you think it is better to warn the user that the text is not the first one, or just use the nth-instance convention for fragmentions?
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KevinMarks_ warning is tricky to do well
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KevinMarks_ if you can do it as they're selecting maybe (like search does as you type showing number of results)
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KartikPrabhu I see. will look into it. thanks :)
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kylewm.com edited /game_play (+1) "typo. boargamegeek -> boardgamegeek.com" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu boar game! lol
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: Gmail said "their spam detection has found 'similar' mails as spam"
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: kylewm: honestly, run away from debugging email deliverability and never look back. you'll never win, nor will you ever get those X hours of your life back. ever.
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KartikPrabhu runs away now
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snarfed approves
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 104 karma
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KartikPrabhu is too far away running to receive approval!
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kylewm hmm, i don't really agree :p might have been relatively low hanging fruit like SPF or DKIM or whatever
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aaronpk i believe i have neither of those set up
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aaronpk fwiw it did not get marked as spam for me
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KartikPrabhu is not listening to kylewm. plugs ears with fingers and shakes head
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aaronpk la la la i can't hear you
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kylewm gmails headers were actuallly pretty informative when i was debugging my mail server
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kylewm but annnnyways
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aaronpk take it to #indieemailcamp kylewm :P
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kylewm :D
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snarfed steeples his fingers
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snarfed "eeeeeexxcellent"
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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kylewm #indieemailcamp is lonely, just me and EvilTantek
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KartikPrabhu "ha haha, ha haha" "if anyone rememebers Mandark
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aaronpk lolol
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@kevinmarks RT @adactio: “Indieweb: Die Daten Sind Wir!” https://twitter.com/adactio/status/598238450853224448/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/599329159890935808)
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KevinMarks_ so, not calling the datastore in a loop changed response time from 4 seconds to 300ms yay
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Loqi yay!
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aaronpk lol yeah...
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snarfed KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 111 karma
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snarfed btw i assume you've used appstats before?
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snarfed if not try it, it's awesome
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KevinMarks_ yes, that's how I found what had happened
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KevinMarks_ though it showing the actual query would be even better
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KevinMarks_ snarfed: I can do things after sending the response in appengine?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: after writing the response body? sure
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Loqi slack/snarfed: but not after returning from the handler
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KevinMarks_ that's fine. So I cna clean up the db to have the denormalised stuff in after responding
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snarfed you can, but consider using task queue instead
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snarfed the deferred lib makes it really trivial. you can even define tasks inline as lambdas, or tiny nested fns
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Vendan KevinMarks_, lol, I was going to say it was running slow, but didn't want to be rude :D
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KevinMarks_ heh
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KevinMarks_ there's some other broken things too, like lots of fetches of tiny files
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Vendan hrm, I need to do some optimizations, I'm up to 80ms for index page render
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GWG I'm wondering if zachdonovan's workplace would work for a IWC in NYC.
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