#indiewebcamp 2015-06-08

2015-06-08 UTC
tantek joined the channel
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acegiak
morning, all
j12t, Guerillero|BNC, KevinMarks__, KevinMarks_, bengo, snarfed, jjuran and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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acegiak
hey so I have some questions about time formatting in MF2
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acegiak
so I have a bunch of play type posts which are like scrobbles for games: http://acegiak.net/kind/play/
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acegiak
and unlike chronologically constrained media like music or tv/music the duration of my engagement with a game is an important piece of information
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acegiak
so I'm currently listing the duration in the format "4h10m" etc
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acegiak
is that the best way to express a time delta?
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acegiak
and I'm setting the post's publish time as the START of the activity but because the sentence "ashton played minecraft for 4h10m" is in the past tense I'm wondering if the publish time shouldn't be the END of the activity?
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ben_thatmustbeme
acegiak: html has markup for a period of time. P4H10M. Something like that
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aaronpk
there is an ISO8601 format for durations
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acegiak
oh neat! thanks!
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acegiak
what's the p for? is it to say period?
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aaronpk
i think so yeah
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acegiak
ok, neat! I now have a script that automatically posts my PC game sessions to my blog! https://acegiak.net/2015/06/08/automatic-game-scrobbling-script/
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acegiak.net
edited /game_play (+238) "/* Acegiak */"
(view diff)
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acegiak
aaronpk: I want to start logging my walks but I'm not sure how. Suggestions for a wordpress/android combo?
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acegiak
taking advantage of the public holiday to work on non-amygdala things without feeling guilty
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aaronpk
I like Runkeeper for route logging
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aaronpk
right now I have a php script that grabs my runs/walks/bikes from the Runkeeper API and creates posts on my site
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acegiak
ok neat!
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acegiak
can I have a look at your script?
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aaronpk
it's kinda ugly but sure
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acegiak
have you seen any of my code?
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acegiak
getting things working > pretty code
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aaronpk
it uses a lot of p3k function that will probably make no sense, but hopefully the runkeeper API bits are useful
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aaronpk
i want to turn it into a micropub app like ownyourgram.com, but that is not likely to happen any time soon
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acegiak
aaronpk: awesome, thanks!
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@2muchin4mation
Guten Morgen: Nachdem ich Felix Schwenzels evangelistischen Beitrag über das Indieweb durchgelesen habe, habe ... http://www.too-much-information.de/
(twitter.com/_/status/607791585070190593)
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Zegnat
mornin’
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@anderiasch
RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785
(twitter.com/_/status/607813811203129344)
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rhiaro
also wants to nab aaronpk's runkeeper script, awesome :)
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GWG
I think, reading back in the log, that aaronpk is ahead of everyone
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Zegnat
I don’t think that surprises anyone, GWG
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Zegnat
I might give RunKeeper a look. I tried OSMTracker once and that didn’t work at all.
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rhiaro
GWG: as a general policy, don't write any code without checking if aaronpk has already done it first ;)
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GWG
rhiaro: I just felt we should acknowledge that
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adactio.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+133) "/* Participating */"
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adactio.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+200) "/* Participating */"
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LanceyWork
what is open graph
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lancey.space
edited /User:Lancey.space (+39) "/* Itches */"
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LanceyWork
has anyone thought about using open graph protocol on indieweb sites?
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petermolnar
for what purpose exactly, LanceyWork?
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LanceyWork
well it'd provide more context for articles
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rhiaro
I don't particularly want to help Facebook consume my content :) (that's what it's for right?)
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LanceyWork
iirc facebook uses it for link contexts yeah
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Zegnat
In theory it is an open protocol, Google has a debugger for it right? So could help search engines
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petermolnar
I kind of agree with rhiaro :)
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LanceyWork
i don't see what'd be bad about helping facebook consume content
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petermolnar
there's oembed for helping remote embedding
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petermolnar
that's good enough for me
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petermolnar
LanceyWork http://saintsal.com/facebook/ <- I don't want to help facebook with anything at all
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Zegnat
But with most IndieWeb implementations building on microformats I am not sure why to pull in open graph. Would probably violate DRY as well, with things laid out in both microformats and RDF
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rhiaro
petermolnar++
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Loqi
petermolnar has 3 karma
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rhiaro
facebook--
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Loqi
facebook has -9 karma
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petermolnar
facebook--
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Loqi
facebook has -10 karma
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petermolnar
-9 is not enough
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rhiaro
I actually might add some rdfa, but not ogp
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rhiaro
I discovered I don't hate rdfa this week
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Zegnat
rhiaro, what RDFa data standard would you implement?
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petermolnar
I used to add it but since I'm trying to pull myself out from fb & their friends, I've stopped adding it
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Zegnat
what is rdfa?
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petermolnar
oembed on the other hand can be useful in my opinion
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Zegnat
what is rdf?
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rhiaro
Let's leave it that way for now ;)
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Zegnat
LanceyWork, if you want to link to OG on the wiki, apparently it sits at /The-Open-Graph-protocol
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rhiaro
I'll probably just mark some metadata up with standard vocabs
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LanceyWork
Zegnat++
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Loqi
Zegnat has 4 karma
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rhiaro
Not high on my priorities list though
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LanceyWork
i'll redirect it
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LanceyWork
there's other reasons to use ogp other than facebook though, so i feel like "i don't want to help facebook" is a weak argument
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lancey.space
edited /User:Lancey.space (+4) "/* Itches */"
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petermolnar
LanceyWork can you please give us some examples of those other reasons? I'm honestly not familiar with anyone else using OG rather than facebook
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LanceyWork
twitter will fall back on ogp if it can't find twitter cards
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Zegnat
Google and Mixi (Japanese service?) consume OGP according to the standard’s website
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LanceyWork
it is a DRY violation though, that's probably the bigger reason
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LanceyWork
i have no idea if silos parse mf2 data
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petermolnar
that's what I wanted to ask, that looking at ogp.me they are basically duplication of the formet meta tags
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petermolnar
with og: prefix
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Zegnat
Do we know why Twitter doesn’t use open graph? Is it just because open graph was thought up by Facebook? (This is why we can’t have nice things…)
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petermolnar
do we know why they aren't just using meta description & the rest? :)
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Zegnat
especially twitter:url and og:url make no sense to me, should just default to rel="canonical".
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Zegnat
Closing these tabs now, these standards do not feel anywhere close to good HTML.
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Loqi
Zegnat has 5 karma
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LanceyWork
Zegnat, twitter uses ogp
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LanceyWork
they prefer their own twitter card thing, but they'll fall back on ogp
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Zegnat
Yes, I read that, sometimes they will fall back to og:* if their twitter:* variant is missing
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Zegnat
Although, LanceyWork, it doesn’t look like Twitter actually documents and confirms that, so they could just drop support for that in a snap (https://dev.twitter.com/cards/overview)
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LanceyWork
doubtful though
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LanceyWork
i think too much of the web uses ogp rather than twitter cards for them to just drop it
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Zegnat
Of course true, just noticed they never actually documented the fallbacks. Which, again, seems like bad design on the protocol part, imho
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petermolnar
so... we have og, twitter cards, schema.org, microformats and the classic html options; how DRY is that? :)
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Zegnat
don’t forget about Dublin Core
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Zegnat
that one is an actual ISO standard
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petermolnar
that I'm not familiar with
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Zegnat
<meta name="DC.Publisher" content="publisher-name" > - etc
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petermolnar
ok, so there already was a full fletched standard, but fb & the rest had to reinvent it... why?!
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raucao
aaronpk: you know if there's a way in mediawiki to have multiple auth mechanisms in parallel?
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raucao
we wanted to add the indieauth extension to 2 wikis, but they currently replace normal logins entirely, so it's not viable
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Zegnat
petermolnar: yep, Dublin Core has been around for a fair while. It is all just silo-envy, implementing the same thing over and over again but proprietary.
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tommorris
a big happy birthday for timbl. :)
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@nebenan_hamburg
RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785
(twitter.com/_/status/607896415877005313)
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GWG
I consume open graph
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@sara__weber
RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785
(twitter.com/_/status/607896942274879488)
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@LanceCoyote
I added http://ogp.me/ parsing for contexts to my site. It beats getting empty contexts when I repost news articles #IndieWeb
(twitter.com/_/status/607897187712835585)
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ben_thatmustbeme
GWG is it tasty?
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning all
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LanceyWork
good morning
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csarven
!standards
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LanceyWork
!standards is always relevant
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@FrauClodette
RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785
(twitter.com/_/status/607900665940221952)
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: It is by necessity.
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Zegnat
GWG, where are you parsing open graph?
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petersell.com
edited /Known (+63) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
(view diff)
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GWG
Zegnat: I use it for pulling in titles and descriptions for websites when liking/replying/etc them
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Zegnat
What does your parser prefer, microformats > open graph > twitter cards ?
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GWG
Zegnat: Twitter cards are the same as open graph for the most part
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Zegnat
yeah, but somebody could have og:title and twitter:title, to target Facebook and Twitter separately.
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Zegnat
to hell with DRY
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GWG
When I add microformats, the parser will prefer them. I played with it a little, but more sites had open graph
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GWG
Zegnat: I use og over twitter
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Zegnat
thanks for the clear up :)
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Zegnat
what is open graph?
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Zegnat
oh, no redirect yet apparently
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Zegnat
what is ogp?
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Loqi
The Open Graph protocol (OGP) is an open* standard developed by Facebook for annotating the primary subject of an HTML page via a set of custom <meta> tags in the document head for the purpose of Facebook showing link previews https://indiewebcamp.com/ogp
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GWG
Zegnat: I ran dozens of sample pages of sites that I read through. It is part of my long term owb my bookmarks plan
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Zegnat
Sounds like a good usecase indeed. Especially if it has a high adoption rate. Though I am not sure it has a place on the IndieWeb if you are already implementing microformats
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LanceyWork
i don't think it's against DRY to consume OGP, only to provide redundant OGP data
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GWG
Zegnat: What LanceyWork said
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Zegnat
Oh, yes, consuming never goes against DRY
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Zegnat
I meant more in the way that, while GWG has a great use-case there as it allows him to get metadata from *a lot* of websites, I see little reason to recommend indieweb creators to supply OGP data as well.
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Zegnat
Unless they are specifically targeting Facebook et al.
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lancey.space
created /open_graph (+37) "Added redirect to [[OGP]]"
(view diff)
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LanceyWork
what is open graph?
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Loqi
The Open Graph protocol (OGP) is an open* standard developed by Facebook for annotating the primary subject of an HTML page via a set of custom <meta> tags in the document head for the purpose of Facebook showing link previews https://indiewebcamp.com/open_graph
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Zegnat
LanceyWork++ 👍
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Loqi
LanceyWork has 2 karma
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LanceyWork
do twitter and facebook pull link contexts from mf2?
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Zegnat
Not that I know
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Zegnat
Do we even know if Google has implemented mf2? I seem to recall they did index the old format for business information and such
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GWG
Zegnat: Bear in mind, I store and display using microformats
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GWG
In regards to adding ogp to my site, I have thought about it. Why should I prevent people from linking to me effectively?
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Zegnat
I just wished they didn’t reinvent these protocols all the time.
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GWG
Zegnat: Agreed
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LanceyWork
exclamation mark standards
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GWG
But at some point, for your site, you have to make decisions based on goals over ideals
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Zegnat
I am almost tempted to add DublinCore meta data to all sites I manage, just to make a point
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Zegnat
Oh, yeah, if you are tough on branding, add all the meta data. Get your logo and product images out there.
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Zegnat
But for most personal sites I think it is unneccessary.
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GWG
I just want Facebook to stop using my photo as the featured image.
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GWG
Sometimes, a few tweaks are all that is needed
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Zegnat
It looks like Google parses mf2. At least when I put in tantek.com in their debugger it turns up hcalendar, hentry, and hcard. So just microformats should be fine for search engines
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Zegnat
!tell tantek Is there any reason why your sidebar disappears based on viewport height and not just width?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm
Zegnat: hmm tantek marks up his page with both mf1 and mf2, the Google debugger could be picking up the former
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Zegnat
Ah oke, I was just assuming
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Zegnat
aaronpk seems to have both og:* and twitter:* on his site btw
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Zegnat
Google might only pick up on the old mf. On aaronparecki.com it only picks up on the “recent articles” from the sidebar, and those have both hentry and h-entry classes.
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zachdonovan
good morning, #indiewebcamp!
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Zegnat
good morning, zachdonovan
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@nxD4n
@withknown can I send likes (u-like-of) to other indieweb sites?
(twitter.com/_/status/607940609698107392)
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Loqi
[mention] Ryan Barrett commented 'is there even indieweb consensus that we want threaded comments? i’m not sure. /multiple-reply has some discussion. i’m not sure i remember ...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply (https://snarfed.org/)
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aaronpk
weird, what's the permalink of that?
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Zegnat
aaronpk, was that question aimed at me?
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aaronpk
no, for snarfed
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Zegnat
Ah, alright. I don’t see any messages from snarfed for hours so I got confused
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LanceyWork
kylewm, do you want me to add my ogp parser to redwind anyway? we can always clean it up later
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kylewm
no i can wait :)
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LanceyWork
alright, i'll write something more thorough
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kylewm
LanceyWork: only if you want to, it's not a high priorty for me ... totally fine if you want to experiment for a while on your own
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ben_thatmustbeme
woo, my implementation of indieauth now works with github, google plus, and instagram
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ben_thatmustbeme
and i can get it working with facebook once i have things a little more established (final URL, etc)
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ben_thatmustbeme
and twitter when i actually want to deal with oauth1 again :/
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ben_thatmustbeme
anyone know if someone has gone through a list of all sites that actually have rel=me links in profiles and thus all site that relmeauth would be possible?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i thought there was one somewhere
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@TZPazifist
Zwei liebliche Kinder für zwei Wochen abzugeben. @diplix hat ja kein fertiges klickmich.dmg für dieses #indieweb-zeuchs publiziert.
(twitter.com/_/status/607965087333236737)
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@benwerd
"All of this is done on device and it stays on device, under your control. You are in control." Tide is turning. #wwdc15 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/607966315408539648)
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Zegnat
I have been adding contacts as icons to my Android home screen since I got a smartphone. The people-first UX works.
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Zegnat
aaronpk, is there a reason for using both mf and mf2 syntax in your sidebar but only mf2 on your home feed?
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aaronpk
i'm sure there is a reason but i don't remember
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aaronpk
actually it's probably because my home feed is notes and photos, and I didn't want to figure out mf1 vocab for it
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Zegnat
that’s fine, I was mostly wondering if there was some specific edge-case reason that I wasn’t aware of.
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aaronpk
really interesting new "News" app from apple...
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aaronpk
i'm really curious how these are authored
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kylewm
aaaand I just learned you could add contacts to your home screen on Android
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kylewm
Zegnat++ that's awesome, i'm going to use the heck out of this
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Loqi
Zegnat has 6 karma
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GWG
kylewm: You didn't know that?
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GWG
It's an old feature
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kylewm
but didn't know you could add people from the phone book to the home screen
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LanceyWork
android is power
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Zegnat
Now if only I could find a good template for how to cut my contact photos to show up in the best way possible…
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GWG
The Bridgy responses on my pictures have made me realize I need to submit a PR to the Semantic Linkbacks plugin
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kylewm
GWG: interesting, you don't have e-content on your photos posts on https://david.shanske.com/, is that on purpose?
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GWG
Yes. I think I only have p-summary
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GWG
My next project is redoing the markup as part of the mf2_s starter theme rewrite. So, I'll be looking at that.
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GWG
Pro/con?
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GWG
I only caption pictures. That seems more summary like
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kylewm
I've been lazy up to now, just using p-name and e-content
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kylewm
may be time to get smart about reading other properties
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tantek
kylewm: perhaps a variant of what is recommended for /comments-presentation ?
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Loqi
tantek: Zegnat left you a message 4 hours, 40 minutes ago: Is there any reason why your sidebar disappears based on viewport height and not just width? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433773171261
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tantek
!tell Zegnat no idea - I'll have to test it and find out. AFAIK my only media queries are width based - and the sidebar doesn't disappear, it just gets pushed down below the content.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
Zegnat: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: no idea - I'll have to test it and find out. AFAIK my only media queries are width based - and the sidebar doesn't disappear, it just gets pushed down below the content. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433790069171
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Zegnat
Noticed when I pushed Safari to only occupy the lower half of my screen.
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tantek
weird - I was constraining the media query based on height too - don't know why - fixed
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tantek
Zegnat: reload
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tantek
thanks for the heads-up!
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Zegnat
tantek, do you know if Google is planning to support mf2 for search? Or should businesses keep marking up their contact information with the old hCard?
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kylewm
the other interesting woodwind presentation case is, acegiak's feed has a bunch of reposts, but the originals usually don't have mf2 markup, so I will need to use her u-repost-of h-cite (and may just do that for the general case of reposts)
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GWG
kylewm: I wrote acegiak's markup
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GWG
She is using Post Kinds
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GWG
kylewm: If you have any suggestions on markup, please file an issue.
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GWG
Right now, it is very generic
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kylewm
GWG: can you change the "p-content" that is inside of "u-repost-of h-cite" to "e-content"?
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tommorris
Zegnat: both. :)
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GWG
kylewm: The example on the microformats wiki shows p-content.
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kylewm
link?
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kylewm
thx, I'll take it to #microformats
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GWG
kylewm: In the last version of my cide, I added support for better customization of different kinds. I have not used it yet. So everything is generated identically.
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GWG
I am looking to improve.
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tantek
GWG, looks like Post Kinds may be incorrectly marking up reposts then, see http://indiewebcamp.com/repost#How_to_Publish
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gRegorLove
Also http://indiewebcamp.com/h-cite#FAQ h-cite may not be necessary
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GWG
I'm seeing that. But, the thing is, in a repost, it should be using the WordPress content box, which is marked up as e-content then, not the p-content box, which is used for summary of linked content.
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tantek
h-cite makes sense for things like reply-contexts
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tantek
but I don't think it makes sense for the entirety of the content of a repost
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GWG
Well, this was part of the last design change. I implemented a system to allow the default content creation template to be overridden with kind specific templates. I just haven't written any yet
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GWG
Can a repost have comments though? Or if it has comments, does that make it a reply?
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GWG
I think acegiak may not be using it exactly as intended.
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tantek
GWG - it wasn't the use that was a problem - but rather the markup from the plugin
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tantek
"Can a repost have comments" is ambiguous
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tantek
do you mean added commentary as part of the repost?
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GWG
tantek: Correct
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tantek
or do you mean can a repost on your site have its own comments?
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GWG
That is what is creating part of the markup issue.
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GWG
tantek: No... acegiak is adding commentary in the e-content area of the post on reposts. That was where I thought the actual repost would go in this case. She is putting it into the box in the post UI for excerpting the content, which is more for replies/a description of a bookmark, etc.
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tantek
I'm trying to recall the markup discussions we had in http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/reposts
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tantek
GWG - a repost UI should not have any boxes, frankly.
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tantek
(or perhaps just one for the URL that you're reposting the post of)
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GWG
tantek: I am referring to the WordPress Post UI, which is undifferentiated.
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tantek
if you quote some other post and add commentary - it's not a repost,
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GWG
I had worked to create an alternate Post UI which is.
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tantek
it's either a quotation or comment etc.
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GWG
tantek: That is why I'm saying this is partially a usage issue, and partially a markup issue.
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@MafVosburgh
Apple News Format. Finally somebody invents a hypertext markup language. You can even have links between articles that form a kind of "web".
(twitter.com/_/status/607987318729932800)
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tantek
GWG, it's not really a usage issue (blaming the user), but rather a UI issue that is permitting (even encouraging?) the user to do something wrong
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ben_thatmustbeme
woo, now to take rel-me-auth libs back out into an actual library
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GWG
tantek: The only way to address the UI issue is to only display the appropriate interface in WordPress, which would require Javascript.
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GWG
Basically to hide the fields that aren't used in the current context of the UI.
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: that caught my ear too... http://aaron.pk/n4b_1
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aaronpk
looking forward to reading the docs soon
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GWG
It is on my list somewhere, but...I don't know Javascript.
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KevinMarks
"Register to submit your RSS feeds to News."
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KevinMarks
says to go to https://www.icloud.com/newspublisher which isn't up yet
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ben_thatmustbeme
i wonder how difficult a workflow it would be to have a micropub endpoint be able to add micropub syndication targets to itself
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tantek
Is this another example of a silo-stack vendor (Apple) strong-arming a weakened segment of web publishers ("big" or "medium" news sites) into doing what they ask?
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ben_thatmustbeme
not sure i worded that well
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KevinMarks
"After you enter your publisher and channel information, you’re automatically signed up to get notified when Apple News Format is available. In the meantime, you can use RSS to deliver content to News."
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GWG
Right now, my plan is: Update mf2_s to improve markup, update fork of mf2_s that I use I my website to use those markup improvements, rewrite Simple Location(easily my worst plugin), add Bridgy Publish support to Indie Web Actions(which is the one with the alternate Post UI), go back to Post Kinds to deferentiate types.
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tantek
Interesting - does that mean that Apple has announced a *new* app that conumes RSS?
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GWG
Oh, and in the middle of that, I have a pull request I want to write for Semantic Linkbacks to improve WordPress's native comment notification system to know about webmentions.
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tantek
if that's the case, that should be documented on /RSS
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GWG
And I still don't have a venue for Indiewebcamp 2015, NYC branch
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ben_thatmustbeme
anyone interested in doing a micropub based news feed site? just publish to your own site, syndicate to an external site via micropub. then anyone in a set list of approved users can syndicate to the feed.
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Might be a good enhancement for IndieNews
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ben_thatmustbeme
GWG, kinda the idea I was thinking
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ben_thatmustbeme
i really like the idea of having micropub endpoints syndicating back out via micropub
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GWG
You just reminded me. Adding to my list... Pull Request to WordPress Micropub for Syndication Targets
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ben_thatmustbeme
just the workfow would be interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme
what would it be, rel="syndication-of" for links back to the original?
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ben_thatmustbeme
or just class="u-syndication-of"
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: shouldn't need micropub to do syndication to an external site
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tantek
h-feed + PuSH should be sufficient for the external site to consume your posts and syndicate them
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, that would work to syndicate all though, I want a syndicate-to option in my micropub client
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ben_thatmustbeme
so any post I make i get the option to send it out and to where
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ben_thatmustbeme
i guess i could do some push for a specific page url
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Loqi
gives ben_thatmustbeme a syndicate
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ben_thatmustbeme
thanks Loqi.... a crime syndicate?
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Loqi
you're welcome
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snarfed
unclear which is better
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: the "syndicate-to option" (that is, you don't want to syndicate all) was why we came up with the method we did for indienews
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tantek
that is, you create the u-syndication link to indienews - before it exists there, then when you webmention indienews, it makes the link exist
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tantek
again, less work than implementing micropub outbound support
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ben_thatmustbeme
looks up docs on indienews while talking.
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ben_thatmustbeme
you create an u-syndication link to what exactly if the article doesn't exist yet
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ben_thatmustbeme
you don't know correct URL
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ben_thatmustbeme
eep, have to know how target's post URLs are constructed
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ben_thatmustbeme
that doesn't really scale, should be automatic
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ben_thatmustbeme
you can always get the corrected URL from the webmention response, and just use brid.gy-esq hidden links, although I always thought that was rather hacky
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ben_thatmustbeme
the ideal i'm hoping for is to be able to add syndication targets without any code change or anything
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ben_thatmustbeme
thus have some method to log in news site, have it report back to my site with a token, then it just adds a new syndicate-to option in micrpub
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ben_thatmustbeme
other option is continue with hidden URLs in the brid.gy style, but add some method of registering those with MP endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme
which would also be cool
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Lancey
i'm back
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ben_thatmustbeme
welcome back Lancey
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KevinMarks
has anyone ever wanted leading/trailing space on p- properties?
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tantek
what are the use-cases?
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KevinMarks
the use case is not having properties wrapped in cruft ;)
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aaronpk
basically that means IndieNews' "how to syndicate to indiewnews" page becomes "add a link to news.indiewebcamp.com somewhere in your post", and is progressively enhanced if you dig into the docs further
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tantek
have to reshare this from tommorris in #microformats: https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312
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@amazingmap
Amazingly comprehensive map of every country in the world that uses the MMDDYYYY format https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/599931666803597312)
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aaronpk
was that a reshare with comment? ;)
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tantek
what is a reshare?
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Loqi
A repost on the indieweb is a post that is purely a 100% re-publication of another post. The act of reposting is an umbrella term that covers the general practice of republishing another post typically on the same service or silo, but more and more across sites https://indiewebcamp.com/reshare
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tantek
I don't think "have to" is a comment
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aaronpk
"have to reshare this" sounds like a comment
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tantek
no that was the plain text version of "u-repost-of" ;)
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ttepasse
There is neither an opt-in or an opt-out for reposting, isn't there?
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tantek
ttepasse: what does that mean? opt-in / -out from whose perspective?
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ttepasse
The publishers of the original article. As in »I don't want that other reblog my article«.
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tantek
ttepasse: there's no opting out of copy / paste - so I'm not sure what your question is asking
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aaronpk
not to mention screenshots
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ttepasse
So, one should give up preemptivly?
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tantek
ttepasse - what's your goal?
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aaronpk
did someone say DRM?
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ttepasse
There is no concrete goal since my wegpage exists only in my brain atm. But not getting republished if I don't want it, would be nice.
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tantek
ttepasse: the reason a specific goal is important for your question is that there is a spectrum of approaches
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tantek
another way to ask the question is, what's your goal for publishing your webpage that exists only in your brain atm?
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KevinMarks
if you don't want anyone to copy it, keep it in your brain
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tantek
attempts a positive approach ;)
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ttepasse
Tantek, my point is a form of privacy. (cont)
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tantek
ttepasse: are you thinking about how to make a private post? that only you can see?
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ttepasse
Obviously not absolute security of encrypting/signing and stuff.
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ttepasse
But there should be in my optionion a social contract of indieweb actions which on could opt-out because of whatever reasons one want not to partake.
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ttepasse
E.g. not being indexed or republished.
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tantek
a-ha that's more specific and more interesting
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ttepasse
On an absolute technical level of course that is not possible. So: social contract.
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tantek
so a human+machine detectable way of saying, I would prefer you not repost this
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tantek
ttepasse: what about /quotation of part of your post?
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ttepasse
Think of robots.txt. There is no technical reason indexing bot have to respect that. It's a social contract.
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ttepasse
The nearest thing I can think of in an indieweb-context would be an webmentionbot.txt for indieweb actions.
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ttepasse
Tantek I see no big difference between quotations and full reblogs. Or other: no clear line. It's a spectrum.
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kylewm
ttepasse: include some text in the post that says "Please do not reproduce without the author's permission"?
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aaronpk
lowtech++
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Loqi
lowtech has 1 karma
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ttepasse
Does the author read smallprint in his quest for his reblog button?
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KevinMarks
whats that company that injects things into the copied text?
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KevinMarks
how does this affect my fragmention as quotation idea>
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ttepasse
You mean that copy&paste-annoyance?
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KevinMarks
that is the kind of thing you meant?
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ttepasse
Nope. More that the tool seems the readable annotation and warn's the tools user that it starts doing something, the original publisher does not like.
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@StartupFredx
RT @NZN: Teaching kids 8-18 about #indieweb methods & philosophy b/c #STEM education is not owned by corporate/foundation grant budgets @ki
(twitter.com/_/status/608037373537054721)
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gRegorLove
A rel-license on a post could also inform consumers your intent not to republish, or limitations on republishing.
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gRegorLove
Kartik and I talked about that a while back
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ttepasse
Isn't rel=license not more legal-orientied?
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ttepasse
When I crafted my robots.txt-analogy some moments back I imagined something like this:
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gRegorLove
Same effect, no? "This content is copyrighted and cannot be republished without permission"
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aaronpk
well, copyright is fuzzy
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ttepasse
<article class="h-entry"> … <small class="please-do-not-reblog">Be nice</small></article>
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aaronpk
fair use and all
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gRegorLove
Whether one pursues legal action is another issue
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ttepasse
Fair use is an american concept. I'm european, how does that work out? Should I encode my nationality and place of residence in microformats for consideration of US-based CMS? ;)
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aaronpk
that's why i would just avoid the copyright/legal aspect altogether and do something like your "be nice" thing instead
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KevinMarks
Fair Dealing is the EU equivalent, though their is droit d'auteur
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ttepasse
Fail Dealing does look more like an UK thing, not continental.
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gRegorLove
I'm mostly suggesting a rel-license since copyright + creative commons are pretty well established terms already, rather than inventing some new terminology. I suppose either way consumer code is going to need to parse something and decide what to allow the user to do.
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dym_cx
what microformat class is used on svg-code inside html (not a link)? .u-logo? but it's not url
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dym_cx
k
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KevinMarks
that would extract the inline svg
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KevinMarks
though may confuse people parsing it
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KevinMarks
could also put the svg in a data url
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dym_cx
it's shorter if inline
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dym_cx
and more clrear
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ttepasse
gRegorLove, aren't socials webs are already inventing new terminology and the law runs behind? E.g. Tumblrs and Soups reblogging. I assume that's legal, because the original poster publishes something to the whole system of the Silo, not on the subsite, someone perceives as one own.
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gRegorLove
Not sure what you mean
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gRegorLove
Looks like the Tumblr ToS includes a content license to Tumblr which enables reblogging. https://www.tumblr.com/policy/en/terms-of-service##Subscriber+Content+License+to+Tumblr
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ttepasse
Yes. My thought is that is a strange mapping from the users conception of ownership to the legal definition of ownership. Meaning there is a disconnect, which will only be greater over time. The law is imperfect in that regard.
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kylewm
aaronpk: are you pulling tweets from the streaming api now?
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aaronpk
have been for a couple years
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kylewm
huh, and then brid.gy/twitter/aaronpk is a backup?
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aaronpk
oh you mean my site?
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aaronpk
yeah about a year
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aaronpk
my site connects to the streaming api and sends a webmention from a bridgy URL when it sees tweets
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aaronpk
so bridgy sends a second webmention a couple minutes later usually
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snarfed
that is neat
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snarfed
aaronpk can you pls start doing that for all bridgy users? kthxbye!
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aaronpk
the limits are per account *and* per IP, right?
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snarfed
something like that :/
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aaronpk
sounds like a great Bridgy Pro™ feature ;-)
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snarfed
heh. bridgy actually used to do it, first just because it was the only way to get favorites. when i hit their (then undocumented) limit of ~50/IP or so, i was immediately dead in the water. details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/57
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aaronpk
yeah, you could do it on EC2 where it's not super expensive to get more IPs
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aaronpk
a micro instance costs like $6/mo or less, so it'd cost $6 / 50 users, or $0.12/user/month
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snarfed
i have ~2k users though :/
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aaronpk
that's why I said Pro ;-)
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snarfed
ah heh
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aaronpk
charge people $3/year for streaming access and it's covered
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snarfed
my usual response is, "i happily accept PRs!"
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snarfed
…but maybe not this time :P
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aaronpk
sounds like a lot of ops automation fun :P
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snarfed
ugh yeah. porting to aws, accepting credit cards...no thanks
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tantek
tries to catch up on ~2hrs of chat
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tantek
gRegorLove: rel=license applies to the whole page - and is certainly something you could use to add to links that explain your copyright
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tantek
or other licenses
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tantek
but it'
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tantek
it's not appropriate for posts
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tantek
does anyone have posts where they give an explicit license as part of the post?
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gRegorLove
I was thinking of permalinks
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tantek
if so we could model a "u-license" link for those
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gRegorLove
Beat me to it :)
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tantek
gRegorLove: yeah I'd prefer to avoid recommending mixing in rel "only" on certain pages - as it tends to add to authoring confusion
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gRegorLove
I don't know if Kartik ever implemented it. It was a hypothetical discussion months ago
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tantek
e.g. why does h-entry work for my post everywhere, but rel-license only on permalink pages?
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tantek
it's a weird disconnect
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gRegorLove
Makes sense. Only in the last few months did I fix a rel- issue I had on my stream of notes. I'd copied some markup early on before I understood the scope of rel. It's definitely confusing.
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tantek
!ttepasse still trying to understand what you *do* want users to do, rather than *do not*. E.g. do you want users to link to your posts? If so, do you have preferred link text you'd like them to use? Are you ok with short quotations but not long? Etc.
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