#indiewebcamp 2015-06-08

2015-06-08 UTC
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acegiak morning, all
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@joshuajuran RT @aaronpk: I wanted to quote this article, but it didn't fit in 140 characters. #indieweb #irony http://calacanis.com/2015/05/29/trading-open-standards-for-corporate-ones/ (http://t.co/pMzB… (twitter.com/_/status/607747270520406016)
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acegiak hey so I have some questions about time formatting in MF2
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acegiak so I have a bunch of play type posts which are like scrobbles for games: http://acegiak.net/kind/play/
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acegiak and unlike chronologically constrained media like music or tv/music the duration of my engagement with a game is an important piece of information
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acegiak so I'm currently listing the duration in the format "4h10m" etc
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acegiak is that the best way to express a time delta?
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acegiak and I'm setting the post's publish time as the START of the activity but because the sentence "ashton played minecraft for 4h10m" is in the past tense I'm wondering if the publish time shouldn't be the END of the activity?
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ben_thatmustbeme acegiak: html has markup for a period of time. P4H10M. Something like that
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aaronpk there is an ISO8601 format for durations
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aaronpk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Time_intervals
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acegiak oh neat! thanks!
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acegiak what's the p for? is it to say period?
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aaronpk i think so yeah
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acegiak ok, neat! I now have a script that automatically posts my PC game sessions to my blog! https://acegiak.net/2015/06/08/automatic-game-scrobbling-script/
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acegiak.net edited /game_play (+238) "/* Acegiak */" (view diff)
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aaronpk nice!
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acegiak aaronpk: I want to start logging my walks but I'm not sure how. Suggestions for a wordpress/android combo?
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acegiak taking advantage of the public holiday to work on non-amygdala things without feeling guilty
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aaronpk I like Runkeeper for route logging
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aaronpk right now I have a php script that grabs my runs/walks/bikes from the Runkeeper API and creates posts on my site
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acegiak ok neat!
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acegiak can I have a look at your script?
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aaronpk it's kinda ugly but sure
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acegiak have you seen any of my code?
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acegiak getting things working > pretty code
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aaronpk here you go! https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/40d6bb333447ff4265a4
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aaronpk it uses a lot of p3k function that will probably make no sense, but hopefully the runkeeper API bits are useful
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aaronpk i want to turn it into a micropub app like ownyourgram.com, but that is not likely to happen any time soon
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acegiak aaronpk: awesome, thanks!
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@2muchin4mation Guten Morgen: Nachdem ich Felix Schwenzels evangelistischen Beitrag über das Indieweb durchgelesen habe, habe ... http://www.too-much-information.de/ (twitter.com/_/status/607791585070190593)
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@srbanister "indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt" http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ via @diplix #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/607792084972630016)
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@diplix RT @srbanister: "indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt" http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ via @diplix #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/607793671094861825)
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@martinlindner RT @srbanister: "indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt" http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ via @diplix #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/607794538992836608)
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@hmans RT @srbanister: "indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt" http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ via @diplix #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/607797846352535553)
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Zegnat mornin’
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@anderiasch RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785 (twitter.com/_/status/607813811203129344)
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rhiaro also wants to nab aaronpk's runkeeper script, awesome :)
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GWG I think, reading back in the log, that aaronpk is ahead of everyone
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Zegnat I don’t think that surprises anyone, GWG
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Zegnat I might give RunKeeper a look. I tried OSMTracker once and that didn’t work at all.
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rhiaro GWG: as a general policy, don't write any code without checking if aaronpk has already done it first ;)
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GWG rhiaro: I just felt we should acknowledge that
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@municode RT @srbanister: "indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt" http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ via @diplix #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/607833459550224384)
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adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+133) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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@jbfriedrich RT @srbanister: "indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt" http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ via @diplix #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/607847985582624769)
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adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+200) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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LanceyWork what is open graph
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "open graph" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=open+graph&summary=prompted+by+LanceyWork+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-08%2Fline%2F1433763254910
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lancey.space edited /User:Lancey.space (+39) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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LanceyWork has anyone thought about using open graph protocol on indieweb sites?
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LanceyWork http://ogp.me/
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petermolnar for what purpose exactly, LanceyWork?
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LanceyWork well it'd provide more context for articles
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rhiaro I don't particularly want to help Facebook consume my content :) (that's what it's for right?)
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LanceyWork iirc facebook uses it for link contexts yeah
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Zegnat In theory it is an open protocol, Google has a debugger for it right? So could help search engines
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petermolnar I kind of agree with rhiaro :)
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LanceyWork i don't see what'd be bad about helping facebook consume content
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petermolnar there's oembed for helping remote embedding
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petermolnar that's good enough for me
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petermolnar LanceyWork http://saintsal.com/facebook/ <- I don't want to help facebook with anything at all
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Zegnat But with most IndieWeb implementations building on microformats I am not sure why to pull in open graph. Would probably violate DRY as well, with things laid out in both microformats and RDF
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rhiaro petermolnar++
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Loqi petermolnar has 3 karma
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rhiaro facebook--
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Loqi facebook has -9 karma
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petermolnar facebook--
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Loqi facebook has -10 karma
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petermolnar -9 is not enough
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rhiaro I actually might add some rdfa, but not ogp
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rhiaro I discovered I don't hate rdfa this week
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Zegnat rhiaro, what RDFa data standard would you implement?
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petermolnar I used to add it but since I'm trying to pull myself out from fb & their friends, I've stopped adding it
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Zegnat what is rdfa?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rdfa" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rdfa&summary=prompted+by+Zegnat+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-08%2Fline%2F1433763752798
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petermolnar oembed on the other hand can be useful in my opinion
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Zegnat what is rdf?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rdf" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rdf&summary=prompted+by+Zegnat+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-08%2Fline%2F1433763760553
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rhiaro Let's leave it that way for now ;)
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Zegnat LanceyWork, if you want to link to OG on the wiki, apparently it sits at /The-Open-Graph-protocol
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rhiaro I'll probably just mark some metadata up with standard vocabs
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LanceyWork Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 4 karma
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rhiaro Not high on my priorities list though
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LanceyWork i'll redirect it
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LanceyWork there's other reasons to use ogp other than facebook though, so i feel like "i don't want to help facebook" is a weak argument
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lancey.space edited /User:Lancey.space (+4) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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petermolnar LanceyWork can you please give us some examples of those other reasons? I'm honestly not familiar with anyone else using OG rather than facebook
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LanceyWork twitter will fall back on ogp if it can't find twitter cards
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Zegnat Google and Mixi (Japanese service?) consume OGP according to the standard’s website
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LanceyWork it is a DRY violation though, that's probably the bigger reason
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LanceyWork i have no idea if silos parse mf2 data
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petermolnar that's what I wanted to ask, that looking at ogp.me they are basically duplication of the formet meta tags
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petermolnar with og: prefix
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Zegnat Do we know why Twitter doesn’t use open graph? Is it just because open graph was thought up by Facebook? (This is why we can’t have nice things…)
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petermolnar do we know why they aren't just using meta description & the rest? :)
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Zegnat fair
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Zegnat especially twitter:url and og:url make no sense to me, should just default to rel="canonical".
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Zegnat Closing these tabs now, these standards do not feel anywhere close to good HTML.
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petermolnar Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 5 karma
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LanceyWork Zegnat, twitter uses ogp
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LanceyWork they prefer their own twitter card thing, but they'll fall back on ogp
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Zegnat Yes, I read that, sometimes they will fall back to og:* if their twitter:* variant is missing
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Zegnat Although, LanceyWork, it doesn’t look like Twitter actually documents and confirms that, so they could just drop support for that in a snap (https://dev.twitter.com/cards/overview)
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LanceyWork doubtful though
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LanceyWork i think too much of the web uses ogp rather than twitter cards for them to just drop it
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Zegnat Of course true, just noticed they never actually documented the fallbacks. Which, again, seems like bad design on the protocol part, imho
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petermolnar so... we have og, twitter cards, schema.org, microformats and the classic html options; how DRY is that? :)
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Zegnat don’t forget about Dublin Core
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Zegnat that one is an actual ISO standard
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petermolnar that I'm not familiar with
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Zegnat <meta name="DC.Publisher" content="publisher-name" > - etc
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Zegnat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Core
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petermolnar ok, so there already was a full fletched standard, but fb & the rest had to reinvent it... why?!
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raucao aaronpk: you know if there's a way in mediawiki to have multiple auth mechanisms in parallel?
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raucao we wanted to add the indieauth extension to 2 wikis, but they currently replace normal logins entirely, so it's not viable
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Zegnat petermolnar: yep, Dublin Core has been around for a fair while. It is all just silo-envy, implementing the same thing over and over again but proprietary.
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tommorris a big happy birthday for timbl. :)
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@nebenan_hamburg RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785 (twitter.com/_/status/607896415877005313)
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GWG I consume open graph
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@sara__weber RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785 (twitter.com/_/status/607896942274879488)
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@LanceCoyote I added http://ogp.me/ parsing for contexts to my site. It beats getting empty contexts when I repost news articles #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/607897187712835585)
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG is it tasty?
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning all
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LanceyWork good morning
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csarven !standards
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Loqi http://xkcd.com/927/
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LanceyWork !standards is always relevant
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Loqi http://xkcd.com/927/
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@FrauClodette RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785 (twitter.com/_/status/607900665940221952)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: It is by necessity.
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Zegnat GWG, where are you parsing open graph?
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petersell.com edited /Known (+63) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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GWG Zegnat: I use it for pulling in titles and descriptions for websites when liking/replying/etc them
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Zegnat What does your parser prefer, microformats > open graph > twitter cards ?
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GWG Zegnat: Twitter cards are the same as open graph for the most part
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Zegnat yeah, but somebody could have og:title and twitter:title, to target Facebook and Twitter separately.
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Zegnat to hell with DRY
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GWG When I add microformats, the parser will prefer them. I played with it a little, but more sites had open graph
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GWG Zegnat: I use og over twitter
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Zegnat thanks for the clear up :)
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Zegnat what is open graph?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "open graph" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=open+graph&summary=prompted+by+Zegnat+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-08%2Fline%2F1433771803245
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Zegnat oh, no redirect yet apparently
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Zegnat what is ogp?
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Loqi The Open Graph protocol (OGP) is an open* standard developed by Facebook for annotating the primary subject of an HTML page via a set of custom <meta> tags in the document head for the purpose of Facebook showing link previews https://indiewebcamp.com/ogp
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GWG Zegnat: I ran dozens of sample pages of sites that I read through. It is part of my long term owb my bookmarks plan
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Zegnat Sounds like a good usecase indeed. Especially if it has a high adoption rate. Though I am not sure it has a place on the IndieWeb if you are already implementing microformats
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LanceyWork i don't think it's against DRY to consume OGP, only to provide redundant OGP data
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GWG Zegnat: What LanceyWork said
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Zegnat Oh, yes, consuming never goes against DRY
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Zegnat I meant more in the way that, while GWG has a great use-case there as it allows him to get metadata from *a lot* of websites, I see little reason to recommend indieweb creators to supply OGP data as well.
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Zegnat Unless they are specifically targeting Facebook et al.
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lancey.space created /open_graph (+37) "Added redirect to [[OGP]]" (view diff)
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LanceyWork what is open graph?
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Loqi The Open Graph protocol (OGP) is an open* standard developed by Facebook for annotating the primary subject of an HTML page via a set of custom <meta> tags in the document head for the purpose of Facebook showing link previews https://indiewebcamp.com/open_graph
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Zegnat LanceyWork++ 👍
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Loqi LanceyWork has 2 karma
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LanceyWork do twitter and facebook pull link contexts from mf2?
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Zegnat Not that I know
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Zegnat Do we even know if Google has implemented mf2? I seem to recall they did index the old format for business information and such
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GWG Zegnat: Bear in mind, I store and display using microformats
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GWG In regards to adding ogp to my site, I have thought about it. Why should I prevent people from linking to me effectively?
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Zegnat I just wished they didn’t reinvent these protocols all the time.
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GWG Zegnat: Agreed
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LanceyWork exclamation mark standards
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GWG But at some point, for your site, you have to make decisions based on goals over ideals
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Zegnat I am almost tempted to add DublinCore meta data to all sites I manage, just to make a point
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Zegnat Oh, yeah, if you are tough on branding, add all the meta data. Get your logo and product images out there.
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Zegnat But for most personal sites I think it is unneccessary.
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GWG I just want Facebook to stop using my photo as the featured image.
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GWG Sometimes, a few tweaks are all that is needed
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Zegnat It looks like Google parses mf2. At least when I put in tantek.com in their debugger it turns up hcalendar, hentry, and hcard. So just microformats should be fine for search engines
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Zegnat !tell tantek Is there any reason why your sidebar disappears based on viewport height and not just width?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm Zegnat: hmm tantek marks up his page with both mf1 and mf2, the Google debugger could be picking up the former
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Zegnat Ah oke, I was just assuming
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Zegnat aaronpk seems to have both og:* and twitter:* on his site btw
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Zegnat Google might only pick up on the old mf. On aaronparecki.com it only picks up on the “recent articles” from the sidebar, and those have both hentry and h-entry classes.
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@krautsource Wie funktioniert eigentlich dieses Indieweb, von dem alle reden. "indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt" http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/?utm_content=buffer7b5b5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (twitter.com/_/status/607924331331657728)
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zachdonovan good morning, #indiewebcamp!
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Zegnat good morning, zachdonovan
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@nxD4n @withknown can I send likes (u-like-of) to other indieweb sites? (twitter.com/_/status/607940609698107392)
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Loqi [mention] Ryan Barrett commented 'is there even indieweb consensus that we want threaded comments? i’m not sure. /multiple-reply has some discussion. i’m not sure i remember ...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply (https://snarfed.org/)
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aaronpk weird, what's the permalink of that?
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Zegnat aaronpk, was that question aimed at me?
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aaronpk no, for snarfed
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Zegnat Ah, alright. I don’t see any messages from snarfed for hours so I got confused
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LanceyWork kylewm, do you want me to add my ogp parser to redwind anyway? we can always clean it up later
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kylewm no i can wait :)
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LanceyWork alright, i'll write something more thorough
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kylewm LanceyWork: only if you want to, it's not a high priorty for me ... totally fine if you want to experiment for a while on your own
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kylewm aaronpk: permalink for snarfed's post is https://snarfed.org/2015-06-08_kyle-mahan-yeah-comment-threads-are-sort-of-a-todo-for
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ben_thatmustbeme woo, my implementation of indieauth now works with github, google plus, and instagram
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ben_thatmustbeme and i can get it working with facebook once i have things a little more established (final URL, etc)
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ben_thatmustbeme and twitter when i actually want to deal with oauth1 again :/
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone know if someone has gone through a list of all sites that actually have rel=me links in profiles and thus all site that relmeauth would be possible?
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought there was one somewhere
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aaronpk iOS hinting at people-first communication https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/apple-wwdc-20150123.jpg?w=680
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@TZPazifist Zwei liebliche Kinder für zwei Wochen abzugeben. @diplix hat ja kein fertiges klickmich.dmg für dieses #indieweb-zeuchs publiziert. (twitter.com/_/status/607965087333236737)
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@benwerd "All of this is done on device and it stays on device, under your control. You are in control." Tide is turning. #wwdc15 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/607966315408539648)
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Zegnat I have been adding contacts as icons to my Android home screen since I got a smartphone. The people-first UX works.
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Zegnat aaronpk, is there a reason for using both mf and mf2 syntax in your sidebar but only mf2 on your home feed?
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aaronpk no
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aaronpk i'm sure there is a reason but i don't remember
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aaronpk actually it's probably because my home feed is notes and photos, and I didn't want to figure out mf1 vocab for it
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Zegnat that’s fine, I was mostly wondering if there was some specific edge-case reason that I wasn’t aware of.
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aaronpk really interesting new "News" app from apple...
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aaronpk i'm really curious how these are authored
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kylewm aaaand I just learned you could add contacts to your home screen on Android
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kylewm Zegnat++ that's awesome, i'm going to use the heck out of this
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Loqi Zegnat has 6 karma
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GWG kylewm: You didn't know that?
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GWG It's an old feature
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kylewm I have http://tantek.com/contact
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kylewm but didn't know you could add people from the phone book to the home screen
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LanceyWork android is power
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Zegnat Now if only I could find a good template for how to cut my contact photos to show up in the best way possible…
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GWG The Bridgy responses on my pictures have made me realize I need to submit a PR to the Semantic Linkbacks plugin
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kylewm GWG: interesting, you don't have e-content on your photos posts on https://david.shanske.com/, is that on purpose?
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GWG Yes. I think I only have p-summary
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GWG My next project is redoing the markup as part of the mf2_s starter theme rewrite. So, I'll be looking at that.
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GWG Pro/con?
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GWG I only caption pictures. That seems more summary like
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kylewm can you see this? https://reader.kylewm.com/?entry=https%3A%2F%2Fdavid.shanske.com%2F2015%2F06%2F08%2Fweapons-for-puppies%2F
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kylewm I've been lazy up to now, just using p-name and e-content
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kylewm may be time to get smart about reading other properties
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tantek kylewm: perhaps a variant of what is recommended for /comments-presentation ?
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Loqi tantek: Zegnat left you a message 4 hours, 40 minutes ago: Is there any reason why your sidebar disappears based on viewport height and not just width? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433773171261
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tantek !tell Zegnat no idea - I'll have to test it and find out. AFAIK my only media queries are width based - and the sidebar doesn't disappear, it just gets pushed down below the content.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat tantek: http://i.imgur.com/KuViYcQ.png
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Loqi Zegnat: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: no idea - I'll have to test it and find out. AFAIK my only media queries are width based - and the sidebar doesn't disappear, it just gets pushed down below the content. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433790069171
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Zegnat Noticed when I pushed Safari to only occupy the lower half of my screen.
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tantek weird - I was constraining the media query based on height too - don't know why - fixed
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tantek Zegnat: reload
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Zegnat nice
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tantek thanks for the heads-up!
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Zegnat tantek, do you know if Google is planning to support mf2 for search? Or should businesses keep marking up their contact information with the old hCard?
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kylewm the other interesting woodwind presentation case is, acegiak's feed has a bunch of reposts, but the originals usually don't have mf2 markup, so I will need to use her u-repost-of h-cite (and may just do that for the general case of reposts)
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GWG kylewm: I wrote acegiak's markup
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GWG She is using Post Kinds
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GWG kylewm: If you have any suggestions on markup, please file an issue.
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GWG Right now, it is very generic
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kylewm GWG: can you change the "p-content" that is inside of "u-repost-of h-cite" to "e-content"?
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tommorris Zegnat: both. :)
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GWG kylewm: The example on the microformats wiki shows p-content.
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kylewm link?
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GWG http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite
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kylewm thx, I'll take it to #microformats
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GWG kylewm: In the last version of my cide, I added support for better customization of different kinds. I have not used it yet. So everything is generated identically.
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GWG I am looking to improve.
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tantek GWG, looks like Post Kinds may be incorrectly marking up reposts then, see http://indiewebcamp.com/repost#How_to_Publish
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gRegorLove Also http://indiewebcamp.com/h-cite#FAQ h-cite may not be necessary
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GWG I'm seeing that. But, the thing is, in a repost, it should be using the WordPress content box, which is marked up as e-content then, not the p-content box, which is used for summary of linked content.
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tantek h-cite makes sense for things like reply-contexts
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tantek but I don't think it makes sense for the entirety of the content of a repost
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GWG Well, this was part of the last design change. I implemented a system to allow the default content creation template to be overridden with kind specific templates. I just haven't written any yet
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GWG Can a repost have comments though? Or if it has comments, does that make it a reply?
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GWG I think acegiak may not be using it exactly as intended.
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tantek GWG - it wasn't the use that was a problem - but rather the markup from the plugin
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tantek "Can a repost have comments" is ambiguous
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tantek do you mean added commentary as part of the repost?
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GWG tantek: Correct
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tantek or do you mean can a repost on your site have its own comments?
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GWG That is what is creating part of the markup issue.
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GWG tantek: No... acegiak is adding commentary in the e-content area of the post on reposts. That was where I thought the actual repost would go in this case. She is putting it into the box in the post UI for excerpting the content, which is more for replies/a description of a bookmark, etc.
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tantek I'm trying to recall the markup discussions we had in http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/reposts
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tantek GWG - a repost UI should not have any boxes, frankly.
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tantek (or perhaps just one for the URL that you're reposting the post of)
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GWG tantek: I am referring to the WordPress Post UI, which is undifferentiated.
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tantek if you quote some other post and add commentary - it's not a repost,
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GWG I had worked to create an alternate Post UI which is.
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tantek it's either a quotation or comment etc.
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GWG tantek: That is why I'm saying this is partially a usage issue, and partially a markup issue.
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tantek a lot of this is discussed here: http://indiewebcamp.com/quotation#Instead_use
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/MafVosburgh/status/607987318729932800
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@MafVosburgh Apple News Format. Finally somebody invents a hypertext markup language. You can even have links between articles that form a kind of "web". (twitter.com/_/status/607987318729932800)
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tantek GWG, it's not really a usage issue (blaming the user), but rather a UI issue that is permitting (even encouraging?) the user to do something wrong
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ben_thatmustbeme woo, now to take rel-me-auth libs back out into an actual library
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GWG tantek: The only way to address the UI issue is to only display the appropriate interface in WordPress, which would require Javascript.
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GWG Basically to hide the fields that aren't used in the current context of the UI.
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aaronpk KevinMarks: that caught my ear too... http://aaron.pk/n4b_1
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aaronpk looking forward to reading the docs soon
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GWG It is on my list somewhere, but...I don't know Javascript.
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KevinMarks https://developer.apple.com/news-publisher/
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KevinMarks "Register to submit your RSS feeds to News."
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KevinMarks says to go to https://www.icloud.com/newspublisher which isn't up yet
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ben_thatmustbeme i wonder how difficult a workflow it would be to have a micropub endpoint be able to add micropub syndication targets to itself
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KevinMarks https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documentation/General/Conceptual/News_Publishing_Guide/BecomingaNewsPublisher.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40015407-CH7-SW1
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tantek Is this another example of a silo-stack vendor (Apple) strong-arming a weakened segment of web publishers ("big" or "medium" news sites) into doing what they ask?
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ben_thatmustbeme not sure i worded that well
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KevinMarks "After you enter your publisher and channel information, you’re automatically signed up to get notified when Apple News Format is available. In the meantime, you can use RSS to deliver content to News."
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GWG Right now, my plan is: Update mf2_s to improve markup, update fork of mf2_s that I use I my website to use those markup improvements, rewrite Simple Location(easily my worst plugin), add Bridgy Publish support to Indie Web Actions(which is the one with the alternate Post UI), go back to Post Kinds to deferentiate types.
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tantek Interesting - does that mean that Apple has announced a *new* app that conumes RSS?
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GWG Oh, and in the middle of that, I have a pull request I want to write for Semantic Linkbacks to improve WordPress's native comment notification system to know about webmentions.
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tantek if that's the case, that should be documented on /RSS
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KevinMarks jesus what a rats nest: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documentation/General/Conceptual/News_Publishing_Guide/RSSBestPractices.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40015407-CH13-SW1
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GWG And I still don't have a venue for Indiewebcamp 2015, NYC branch
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone interested in doing a micropub based news feed site? just publish to your own site, syndicate to an external site via micropub. then anyone in a set list of approved users can syndicate to the feed.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Might be a good enhancement for IndieNews
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, kinda the idea I was thinking
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ben_thatmustbeme i really like the idea of having micropub endpoints syndicating back out via micropub
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GWG You just reminded me. Adding to my list... Pull Request to WordPress Micropub for Syndication Targets
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ben_thatmustbeme just the workfow would be interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme what would it be, rel="syndication-of" for links back to the original?
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ben_thatmustbeme or just class="u-syndication-of"
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: shouldn't need micropub to do syndication to an external site
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tantek h-feed + PuSH should be sufficient for the external site to consume your posts and syndicate them
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, that would work to syndicate all though, I want a syndicate-to option in my micropub client
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ben_thatmustbeme so any post I make i get the option to send it out and to where
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess i could do some push for a specific page url
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Loqi gives ben_thatmustbeme a syndicate
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks Loqi.... a crime syndicate?
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Loqi you're welcome
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snarfed maybe a https://angel.co/syndicates
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snarfed unclear which is better
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: the "syndicate-to option" (that is, you don't want to syndicate all) was why we came up with the method we did for indienews
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tantek that is, you create the u-syndication link to indienews - before it exists there, then when you webmention indienews, it makes the link exist
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tantek again, less work than implementing micropub outbound support
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ben_thatmustbeme looks up docs on indienews while talking.
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ben_thatmustbeme you create an u-syndication link to what exactly if the article doesn't exist yet
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ben_thatmustbeme you don't know correct URL
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: http://news.indiewebcamp.com/how-to-submit-a-post
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ben_thatmustbeme eep, have to know how target's post URLs are constructed
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ben_thatmustbeme that doesn't really scale, should be automatic
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ben_thatmustbeme you can always get the corrected URL from the webmention response, and just use brid.gy-esq hidden links, although I always thought that was rather hacky
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ben_thatmustbeme the ideal i'm hoping for is to be able to add syndication targets without any code change or anything
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ben_thatmustbeme thus have some method to log in news site, have it report back to my site with a token, then it just adds a new syndicate-to option in micrpub
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ben_thatmustbeme other option is continue with hidden URLs in the brid.gy style, but add some method of registering those with MP endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme which would also be cool
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Lancey i'm back
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ben_thatmustbeme welcome back Lancey
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Lancey ty
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KevinMarks has anyone ever wanted leading/trailing space on p- properties?
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tantek what are the use-cases?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "use-cases" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=use-cases&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-08%2Fline%2F1433795584265
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tantek heh
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KevinMarks the use case is not having properties wrapped in cruft ;)
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/issues/9
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aaronpk basically that means IndieNews' "how to syndicate to indiewnews" page becomes "add a link to news.indiewebcamp.com somewhere in your post", and is progressively enhanced if you dig into the docs further
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tantek have to reshare this from tommorris in #microformats: https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312
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@amazingmap Amazingly comprehensive map of every country in the world that uses the MMDDYYYY format https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/599931666803597312)
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aaronpk :)
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aaronpk was that a reshare with comment? ;)
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tantek what is a reshare?
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Loqi A repost on the indieweb is a post that is purely a 100% re-publication of another post. The act of reposting is an umbrella term that covers the general practice of republishing another post typically on the same service or silo, but more and more across sites https://indiewebcamp.com/reshare
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tantek hah
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tantek I don't think "have to" is a comment
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aaronpk "have to reshare this" sounds like a comment
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tantek no that was the plain text version of "u-repost-of" ;)
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ttepasse There is neither an opt-in or an opt-out for reposting, isn't there?
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tantek ttepasse: what does that mean? opt-in / -out from whose perspective?
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ttepasse The publishers of the original article. As in »I don't want that other reblog my article«.
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tantek ttepasse: there's no opting out of copy / paste - so I'm not sure what your question is asking
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aaronpk not to mention screenshots
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ttepasse So, one should give up preemptivly?
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tantek ttepasse - what's your goal?
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aaronpk did someone say DRM?
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ttepasse There is no concrete goal since my wegpage exists only in my brain atm. But not getting republished if I don't want it, would be nice.
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tantek ttepasse: the reason a specific goal is important for your question is that there is a spectrum of approaches
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tantek another way to ask the question is, what's your goal for publishing your webpage that exists only in your brain atm?
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KevinMarks if you don't want anyone to copy it, keep it in your brain
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tantek attempts a positive approach ;)
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ttepasse Tantek, my point is a form of privacy. (cont)
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tantek ttepasse: are you thinking about how to make a private post? that only you can see?
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ttepasse Obviously not absolute security of encrypting/signing and stuff.
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KevinMarks previously: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003/07/microsoft-extrapolates.html
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ttepasse But there should be in my optionion a social contract of indieweb actions which on could opt-out because of whatever reasons one want not to partake.
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ttepasse E.g. not being indexed or republished.
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tantek a-ha that's more specific and more interesting
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ttepasse On an absolute technical level of course that is not possible. So: social contract.
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tantek so a human+machine detectable way of saying, I would prefer you not repost this
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tantek ttepasse: what about /quotation of part of your post?
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ttepasse Think of robots.txt. There is no technical reason indexing bot have to respect that. It's a social contract.
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ttepasse The nearest thing I can think of in an indieweb-context would be an webmentionbot.txt for indieweb actions.
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ttepasse Tantek I see no big difference between quotations and full reblogs. Or other: no clear line. It's a spectrum.
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kylewm ttepasse: include some text in the post that says "Please do not reproduce without the author's permission"?
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aaronpk lowtech++
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Loqi lowtech has 1 karma
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ttepasse Does the author read smallprint in his quest for his reblog button?
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KevinMarks whats that company that injects things into the copied text?
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KevinMarks how does this affect my fragmention as quotation idea>
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ttepasse You mean that copy&paste-annoyance?
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KevinMarks that is the kind of thing you meant?
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ttepasse Nope. More that the tool seems the readable annotation and warn's the tools user that it starts doing something, the original publisher does not like.
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/?rawtext=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kevinmarks.com%2Fmentionquote.html%23with%2520a%2520fragmention%2C%2520we%2520potentially%2520have%2520a%2520quote%2520from%2520the%2520source%2520in%2520the%2520link%2520itself&maxurllength=0&embed=on
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@StartupFredx RT @NZN: Teaching kids 8-18 about #indieweb methods & philosophy b/c #STEM education is not owned by corporate/foundation grant budgets @ki… (twitter.com/_/status/608037373537054721)
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gRegorLove A rel-license on a post could also inform consumers your intent not to republish, or limitations on republishing.
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gRegorLove Kartik and I talked about that a while back
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ttepasse Isn't rel=license not more legal-orientied?
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ttepasse When I crafted my robots.txt-analogy some moments back I imagined something like this:
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gRegorLove Same effect, no? "This content is copyrighted and cannot be republished without permission"
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aaronpk well, copyright is fuzzy
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ttepasse <article class="h-entry"> … <small class="please-do-not-reblog">Be nice</small></article>
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aaronpk fair use and all
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gRegorLove Whether one pursues legal action is another issue
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ttepasse Fair use is an american concept. I'm european, how does that work out? Should I encode my nationality and place of residence in microformats for consideration of US-based CMS? ;)
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aaronpk that's why i would just avoid the copyright/legal aspect altogether and do something like your "be nice" thing instead
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KevinMarks Fair Dealing is the EU equivalent, though their is droit d'auteur
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ttepasse Fail Dealing does look more like an UK thing, not continental.
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gRegorLove I'm mostly suggesting a rel-license since copyright + creative commons are pretty well established terms already, rather than inventing some new terminology. I suppose either way consumer code is going to need to parse something and decide what to allow the user to do.
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dym_cx what microformat class is used on svg-code inside html (not a link)? .u-logo? but it's not url
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KevinMarks e-logo?
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dym_cx k
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KevinMarks that would extract the inline svg
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KevinMarks though may confuse people parsing it
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KevinMarks could also put the svg in a data url
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dym_cx it's shorter if inline
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dym_cx and more clrear
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ttepasse gRegorLove, aren't socials webs are already inventing new terminology and the law runs behind? E.g. Tumblrs and Soups reblogging. I assume that's legal, because the original poster publishes something to the whole system of the Silo, not on the subsite, someone perceives as one own.
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gRegorLove Not sure what you mean
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gRegorLove Looks like the Tumblr ToS includes a content license to Tumblr which enables reblogging. https://www.tumblr.com/policy/en/terms-of-service##Subscriber+Content+License+to+Tumblr
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ttepasse Yes. My thought is that is a strange mapping from the users conception of ownership to the legal definition of ownership. Meaning there is a disconnect, which will only be greater over time. The law is imperfect in that regard.
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kylewm aaronpk: are you pulling tweets from the streaming api now?
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aaronpk have been for a couple years
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tantek yes
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snarfed pours out a little for https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/commit/86279b1ae6532f0a7dd06a076b1dbb2e97b04e8e
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kylewm huh, and then brid.gy/twitter/aaronpk is a backup?
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aaronpk oh you mean my site?
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aaronpk yeah about a year
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aaronpk my site connects to the streaming api and sends a webmention from a bridgy URL when it sees tweets
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aaronpk so bridgy sends a second webmention a couple minutes later usually
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kylewm neat
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snarfed that is neat
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snarfed aaronpk can you pls start doing that for all bridgy users? kthxbye!
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk the limits are per account *and* per IP, right?
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snarfed something like that :/
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aaronpk sounds like a great Bridgy Pro™ feature ;-)
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snarfed heh. bridgy actually used to do it, first just because it was the only way to get favorites. when i hit their (then undocumented) limit of ~50/IP or so, i was immediately dead in the water. details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/57
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snarfed whee
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aaronpk yeah, you could do it on EC2 where it's not super expensive to get more IPs
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aaronpk a micro instance costs like $6/mo or less, so it'd cost $6 / 50 users, or $0.12/user/month
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snarfed true!
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snarfed i have ~2k users though :/
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aaronpk that's why I said Pro ;-)
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snarfed ah heh
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aaronpk charge people $3/year for streaming access and it's covered
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snarfed my usual response is, "i happily accept PRs!"
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snarfed …but maybe not this time :P
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aaronpk :D
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aaronpk sounds like a lot of ops automation fun :P
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snarfed ugh yeah. porting to aws, accepting credit cards...no thanks
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tantek gRegorLove: rel=license applies to the whole page - and is certainly something you could use to add to links that explain your copyright
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tantek or other licenses
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tantek but it'
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tantek it's not appropriate for posts
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tantek does anyone have posts where they give an explicit license as part of the post?
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gRegorLove I was thinking of permalinks
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tantek if so we could model a "u-license" link for those
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gRegorLove Beat me to it :)
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tantek gRegorLove: yeah I'd prefer to avoid recommending mixing in rel "only" on certain pages - as it tends to add to authoring confusion
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gRegorLove I don't know if Kartik ever implemented it. It was a hypothetical discussion months ago
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tantek e.g. why does h-entry work for my post everywhere, but rel-license only on permalink pages?
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tantek it's a weird disconnect
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gRegorLove Makes sense. Only in the last few months did I fix a rel- issue I had on my stream of notes. I'd copied some markup early on before I understood the scope of rel. It's definitely confusing.
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tantek !ttepasse still trying to understand what you *do* want users to do, rather than *do not*. E.g. do you want users to link to your posts? If so, do you have preferred link text you'd like them to use? Are you ok with short quotations but not long? Etc.
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