#tantekdoes anyone here post recipes on their blog?
#tantek!tell ttepasse still trying to understand what you *do* want users to do, rather than *do not*. E.g. do you want users to link to your posts? If so, do you have preferred link text you'd like them to use? Are you ok with short quotations but not long? Etc.
#aaronpkwhich is another reason for the Great Refactor of 2015
#tantek1. your posting interface should be/stay simple, and your backend should be smart enough to mark it up as a recipe post
#tantekand 2. "the fact that I didn't want these in my /articles feed" is reason to markup the recipes so they don't get included in that by default!
#aaronpkyes, this is all just internal architecture issues that prevent me from doing that right now
#tantekstill, the unofficial examples are a good start
#kylewmcommon format for food blogs is 1. very long rambling story, 2. recipe 3. pictures
#tantekA recipe is special kind of post, that typically has a name, like [[articles]] do, a list of ingredients, and a list of instructions for making something, usually [[food]] or drink.
#tantekhey sandro - yeah - I both understand his perspective, and am disappointed by the outcome.
#tantekediting specs is hard, shorter specs are better, and yet, removing all sense of attempting a pragmatic bridge was throwing out the baby with the bathwater
#tantekkind of leaves no choice but to propose alternative spec to AS2
#sandroHmmm, You saw elf's suggestion of having other syntaxes be in companion documents? I'm still trying to understand how we were going to get any multi-syntax interop.
#bengoHas anyone in mf2 community mapped it's 'nouns' (e.g. Note, Entry) to those in the current draft vocab?
#sandrolike, what's the Best Case scenario for using multiple syntaxes?
#tanteka companion document seems a roundabout way for authors/developers looking to do minimum pragmatic interop work
#tantekan alternative spec would be based on what people are actually publishing, instead of what a past group (as much as AS was its own group/mailing-list/community) brainstormed, and got mutated into enterprise linked data largesse
#sandroIs there some way the two specs could work together, instead of just fork everything?
#tanteksandro: hence why I pushed for inclusion of microformats examples right there inline in one spec
#tantekaside: citing "hundreds of examples" = largesse
#sandroBut, I don't see how having the microformats examples was supposed to provide interop -- whether its in the same spec or not.
#tanteksandro - do you have any suggestions for the divergence in technology development methodologies? (real world pragmatic, what people are actually publishing on their own sites as part of what they do, contrast with enterprise aspirational, only test examples)
#tantekthe examples in the same spec interop was supposed at least provide some semblance of an equivalence that publishers / consuming code could look at
#bengoThe best point of interop is at the vocab/semantics level and not the serialization level (e.g. JSON/HTML). If the former is done (by mapping mf2 entities to the AS2 vocab or vice-versa), the latter is someone trivial to do in an exemplary way
#tantekhence why I pointed out the divergence in technology development methodologies
#sandrore divergence, I kind of figure the two approaches meet up an Candidate Recommendation, when even the Enterprise folks have to implement everything.
#tantekbengo - for example, we've demonstrated here (#indiewebcamp) that not only is there no need for verbs (which the WG did actually accept last year at TPAC), but there is no need for a separate notion of "activities"
#sandroI guess I don't see how a "semblance of equivalence" is very helpful. I mean, I guess it's better than competing standards that have no semblance of equivalence, but it's not nearly as good as one standard, right?
#tanteknot to mention bikeshedding "author" into "actor"
#tanteksandro - no, it is better than "one standard" because at least with multiple approaches there is a chance for iteration and improvement
#tantekwhereas with one uber standard that everyone needs their pet features in, you get bloat and unimplementability
#bengoI agree with your first post there, but it's not really a 'for example' of how I was oversimplying
#tantekor a very high bar for implementability, and thus only enterprise solutions, which is again, bad for the market (but good for enterprise coffers)
#bengoAll I care about is that the AS2 draft is super useful to the projects I get paid for and mf2 is only useful for about 1/10th of the applications
#tantekthere really is a tension between small minimal standards, and standards that enterprises and all their customers "want" (i.e. don't actually know if they need or not)
#tantekbengo - if such uses exist, you can help by documenting the use-cases
#tantekbengo - HTML is just the foundational language of communication on the web, you can have the JSON version if you want - as defined by microformats2 parsing and implemented by multiple parsers
#sandro*nod* Hmmmm. Could the idea of a Core + Modules address this, tantek?
#bengo(ignorance) Is there a formally specified JSON representation of mf2? I was under the impression that each parser parsed to a different set of keys?
#tanteksandro - theoretically core + modules could help, if had a chance of agreeing on what a minimal core would be
#tantekmaybe - again, we're using Atom semantics via h-entry, while AS2 diverged from Atom semantics and made up a bunch of its own
#bengoJSON->HTML always has many ways to do, which is maybe what James got frustrated with
#sandrobengo, I think the problem is that mf2 and as2 model the world differently. Different words (vocab), different concepts. The syntax differences are easy to handle in comparison.
#tanteksandro - even h-entry started with Atom semantics (and terms) as a "core" and added "modules" to it, like replies, likes, photos
#tanteksandro, so you might say we've already been taking a core + modules approach
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#tantekbecause yes, that's a more practical approach
#tantekJSON->HTML usually doesn't make much sense, it's one of the problems of JSON, you lose too much context
#tantekbut that's ok, we'll be debating some other context-lossy format alternative in 5-10 years
#sandrosure, the question is whether the as2 folks can live with some reorganization that gives a common core than mf2 also can live with.
#tanteksandro - I'm not sure, as the only "as2 folks" that transitioned from the group that invented and developed AS/AS2, into Social Web WG, is IBM (and James)
#tantekall the other participants in AS have given up
#tanteknone of the authors of the original AS spec, or leaders in the AS group/mailing-list actually have activity streams on their own sites, or work on anything related any more
#tantekonly James is left carrying the torch for AS :(
#sandroI agree the lack of others is disappointing. How would you characterize Evan/activitypump's use of AS2? "fantasy"?
#tantekno, pragmatic attempt at re-use at the closest thing to what he wants
#tantekbecause he's likely tired of specs/formats/protocols arguments/discussions
#tantekhe's also so good of an implementer, that despite the specs being hard or complex, he'll likely be able to implement them, but that's not actually useful to "standards" in the long term
#tantekbecause that's as far as the previous group got
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#tantekI was thinking of trying to implement that myself just to try to get my site to interop with pump.io
#tantekand gain experience with it - to hopefully figure out how to easily convert mf2 h-entry to pump.io AS/JSON
#sandroMy understanding is pump.io uses as1 and activitypump, intended to replace pump.io, is slated to use as2.
#tantek!tell gRegorLove: next time anyone (designers, UX) tell you that we need "simpler" dates on the IndieWebCamp wiki events, and propose US-centric things like Month Day, Year etc., please show them https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312 and tell them IndieWebCamp is global, not US-only.
#tantekwe have to admit/accept that 1) we have an international community in IndieWebCamp, and 2) there's still a big critical mass of that community in the US
#tantekso both Month Day, Year and Day Month Year are not acceptable as a result
#tantekthe best (least worst) option is to go with what's most internationally understandable and least confusing across the set of folks the community interacts with and that's ISO dates.
#gRegorLoveThat template wasn't part of the Great Wiki Redesign though, just something I'd started working on before
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#tantekgRegorLove: yeah that github issue was likely it - thought I saw it as part of the great redesign which is why I think I collapsed the two. commented on the issue with those citations.
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#gRegorLoveI can change that in the template easily enough. Want all the digits the same size, or still emphasize the dd a bit more than yyyy mm?
#kylewmwait, ActivityPump is a replacement for pump.io?
#tantekkylewm: hard to tell. I tend to look at what people are shipping today, rather than what's rumored to be a replacement tomorrow.
#gRegorLoveMaybe "yyyy-mm" acorss the top in the regular font size, dd on the line underneath, larger?
#tantekkylewm: yeah, Known with an integrated reader the way pump.io does would be sweet
#tantekyou and several others are way ahead on building indie-readers, I hope someone manages to integrate one into their own site in a integrated-reader approach like pump and other social networks
#tantekgRegorLove: I don't know about the vertical displays - especially internationally
#tantekISO Dates work best as plain text all in a row horizontally. as soon as you start messing with that, all bets are off
#kylewmoh, pump also has ACLs and following/follower relationships, that is kind of a big difference
#gRegorLoveWell, do we even need a separate date listed on the left then? My initial concept was a larger visual cue when scanning the list to see when the events are. The ISO date is already listed beside "When" so maybe drop the square icon
#kylewmbut that didn't really happen with statusnet right? people mostly used identica i thought
#tantekright, it was too difficult to build something that interoperated with it
#tantekopenness is insufficient to avoid monoculture, you can have a completely open but very hard to implement set of protocols/formats, which will result in few or maybe only one implementation
#tantekgRegorLove: the calendar / date "badges" do look pretty cool
#tantekI just don't know the best way to make them internationally understandable
#tanteksorry for not being more helpful about that
#gRegorLoveNo worries. I'll think about it some more and play around with ideas.
#gRegorLoveAnd probably get back to my own site in the meantime. :)
#tanteksomeone could certainly write one - and you could even markup the JSON pretty-printed out put with microformats to have a fully-round-trippable JSON pretty print
#Loqitantek meant to say: someone could certainly write one - and you could even markup the JSON pretty-printed output with microformats to have a fully-round-trippable JSON pretty print
#kylewmit gets flattened to plain text because it's p-content instead of e-content, but the suggestion to put h-cite inside the outer e-content is more radical
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#GWGkylewm: I was commenting that. acegiak wasn't using it the way I thought, so I have to adapt to that.
#tantek!tell adactio looks like my addition of timezone to my dt-published caused a datetime parse error on your site when I webmention one of your posts from a reply: https://adactio.com/journal/9016#comment19204
#csarvenIs anyone using hFeed -> Atom/RSS or is that oldskool nowadays?
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#tantek!tell dym_cx re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-06/line/1433623439412 use p-category on your h-card to tag yourself, what you're about, your interests etc. simple flat folksonomy, and a "good enough" publishing solution to the "find me people into the same things" use-case.
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#kylewm!tell acegiak ok fixed some issues on my side, but now I'm having trouble parsing your replies. you probably don't want to mark up the header as e-content, and probably do want to add "p-comment h-cite" to comments
#tantek!tell dym_cx re: spoken/written languages - I believe "skill" was proposed for h-resume, no examples so far of publishing that info on an h-card AFAIK - what's the URL to your personal site with h-card?
#Loqidym_cx: tantek left you a message 16 minutes ago: re: spoken/written languages - I believe "skill" was proposed for h-resume, no examples so far of publishing that info on an h-card AFAIK - what's the URL to your personal site with h-card? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-09/line/1433865883264
#tantekdym_cx: also in mf2, when you're using an experimental property like that (which expect others to also experiment with, perhaps eventually make standard), use -x- before the name, but after the p
#ben_thatmustbemei was trying to find rhymes with auth, like Slauth, and then just do a backronym for the SL part.... but slauth is a thing for second life auth
#aaronpk"The registration is 51,26$+VAT(24%), one-time payment. There is no yearly fee at present. When yearly fee will be introduced, you will be informed."
#ben_thatmustbemeamber recommends against getting a .ro but then link doesn't explain at all
#Loqigives kylewm the comments to be wrapped with p
#kylewmcomments are currently "children" of the parent h-entry, it'd be useful to me if they were in the "comment" property
#GWGkylewm: That would be an issue to file against mf2_s then
#tantekoh yeah! that would also provide more citable examples for the "p-comment" proposal in h-entry
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#GWGIt's on my list to fix. I had superseded it with the Semantic Comments plugin which did do it as you noted, but had to disable that because the solution was problematic for other reasons.
#GWGkylewm: It's actually a priority for me to fix the markup. And since acegiak uses a child theme of the mf2_s starter theme, that should trickle down
#kylewmtantek: I think they're confusing comment vs. reply, like vs. like-of, repost vs. repost-of, but I think any other alternative would be confusing too...
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#tantekright, hence the question of how useful is it at all to add p-comment, u-like, u-repost markup at all
#tanteki.e. what are the use-cases for consuming it? readers?
#ZegnatI believe Felix tries to get the message across that he gets the idea of the indieweb there, but not the execution. About aaronpk’s Replies link specifically: what does it reply to, why, and why *there*. “What’s on this page? An answer to an answer? Can I answer to that answer too? Where? How?”, “Can I comment here? Where is the comment field? What is a webmention, that I can send from there? Where does it go?
#LoqiWelcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
#Jeenais about to tweet his 10,000th tweet, but it could take a couple of months for the 150 tweets because I don't use twitter that much anymore
#ZegnatIt bsically goes on like that. And it seems like he is explaining about the IndieWeb to people, the way he would’ve liked the IndieWeb to have been explained to him
#Zegnat“I discovered the indieweb when one of the first versions of Reclaim was done. I learned that what Reclaim does is what the indiewebguys call “PESOS”. The rest I only understood 50%. I read fascinating ideas and concept, but couldn’t do much with them.”
#kylewmassumes KevinMarks is kidding, but it's so hard to tell
#ZegnatFelix didn’t know what h-card and h-entry were until he was invited to speak at nebenan.hamburg. And now he has written what I would consider one of the best introductions to the IndieWeb ever.
#KevinMarksthat looks like a great introto indieweb in german
#Zegnat“When I send a webmention from wirres.net to aaronpareki.com, aaronpareki.com checks what that prick has done – aha – a like, and notes it below the article.”
#Zegnat(I consulted my mom on translating “der schwenzel” with “that prick” …)
#rhiaroWhen you create event posts, do you rsvp to your own events as a separate post, or is the fact you created the event enough to imply you're attending?
#aaronpki usually RSVP to my own events separately
#Zegnatnedorito, when you see people discussing things here, like them talking about “RSVP”, you can try asking what it is here in chat and Loqi will tell you:
#LoqiA reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, as part of the context-thread https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-chain