#indiewebcamp 2015-06-09

2015-06-09 UTC
vanderwal joined the channel
#
tantek
does anyone here post recipes on their blog?
#
tantek
!tell ttepasse still trying to understand what you *do* want users to do, rather than *do not*. E.g. do you want users to link to your posts? If so, do you have preferred link text you'd like them to use? Are you ok with short quotations but not long? Etc.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
what is a recipe?
#
tantek
apparently not.
#
aaronpk
i've been experimenting
martinBrown joined the channel
#
tantek
wow a note that is a recipe - cool
#
tantek
wonder if there is any way to auto-markup that ;)
#
aaronpk
i was kind of thinking that while writing these
#
aaronpk
it's like a microsyntax for recipes
#
aaronpk
first line = recipe name, bullet list = ingredients, text below = directions
#
tantek
aaronpk: interesting that your cocktail recipe example has a name, and yet you did not post it as an article with a name
#
tantek
I'd say since (or when) recipes have names, they should be articles
#
aaronpk
that is mostly a side effect of my posting interface plus the fact that I didn't want these in my /articles feed
#
tantek
with extra h-recipe markup inside
#
aaronpk
which is another reason for the Great Refactor of 2015
#
tantek
1. your posting interface should be/stay simple, and your backend should be smart enough to mark it up as a recipe post
#
tantek
and 2. "the fact that I didn't want these in my /articles feed" is reason to markup the recipes so they don't get included in that by default!
#
aaronpk
yes, this is all just internal architecture issues that prevent me from doing that right now
#
tantek
still, the unofficial examples are a good start
#
kylewm
common format for food blogs is 1. very long rambling story, 2. recipe 3. pictures
#
tantek
A recipe is special kind of post, that typically has a name, like [[articles]] do, a list of ingredients, and a list of instructions for making something, usually [[food]] or drink.
#
loqi.me
created /recipe (+206) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433808127827 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
reading scrollback from earlier
#
KevinMarks
Slack reads OGP
#
KevinMarks
as does Apple now
#
KevinMarks
or rather they will
#
kylewm
everyone get a generic globe for this link or just me? http://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=twitter.com
#
KevinMarks
i think that thing only supports the old syntax
#
tantek
KevinMarks: do you ever post recipes on your own site or blog(s)?
#
KevinMarks
don't think so
#
KevinMarks
i search fro them a lot
#
tantek.com
edited /recipe (+1000) "expand with stub why, how, and indieweb examples with aaronpk"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
license as part of the post - noun project has that
#
KevinMarks
and also canva.com shows license cost in the image browser
#
KevinMarks
maureen did a whole book of recipes that fit ina tweet
#
tantek
hey that's a nice looking savory muffin kylewm
#
tantek.com
edited /recipe (+124) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ kylewm"
(view diff)
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
so could expand those into h-recipe
#
tantek
perhaps document that microsyntax on the microformats.org/wiki/picoformats page?
#
tantek
or at least link to it
#
sandro
tantek, did you see jasnell's argument re microformats in the as2 spec? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Jun/0009.html
#
tantek
hey sandro - yeah - I both understand his perspective, and am disappointed by the outcome.
#
tantek
editing specs is hard, shorter specs are better, and yet, removing all sense of attempting a pragmatic bridge was throwing out the baby with the bathwater
#
tantek
kind of leaves no choice but to propose alternative spec to AS2
#
sandro
Hmmm, You saw elf's suggestion of having other syntaxes be in companion documents? I'm still trying to understand how we were going to get any multi-syntax interop.
#
bengo
Has anyone in mf2 community mapped it's 'nouns' (e.g. Note, Entry) to those in the current draft vocab?
#
sandro
like, what's the Best Case scenario for using multiple syntaxes?
#
tantek
a companion document seems a roundabout way for authors/developers looking to do minimum pragmatic interop work
#
tantek
an alternative spec would be based on what people are actually publishing, instead of what a past group (as much as AS was its own group/mailing-list/community) brainstormed, and got mutated into enterprise linked data largesse
#
sandro
chuckles at "largesse"
#
sandro
Is there some way the two specs could work together, instead of just fork everything?
#
tantek
sandro: hence why I pushed for inclusion of microformats examples right there inline in one spec
#
tantek
aside: citing "hundreds of examples" = largesse
#
sandro
But, I don't see how having the microformats examples was supposed to provide interop -- whether its in the same spec or not.
#
tantek
sandro - do you have any suggestions for the divergence in technology development methodologies? (real world pragmatic, what people are actually publishing on their own sites as part of what they do, contrast with enterprise aspirational, only test examples)
#
tantek
the examples in the same spec interop was supposed at least provide some semblance of an equivalence that publishers / consuming code could look at
#
bengo
The best point of interop is at the vocab/semantics level and not the serialization level (e.g. JSON/HTML). If the former is done (by mapping mf2 entities to the AS2 vocab or vice-versa), the latter is someone trivial to do in an exemplary way
#
bengo
*somewhat
#
tantek
bengo - huge oversimplification
#
tantek
hence why I pointed out the divergence in technology development methodologies
#
sandro
re divergence, I kind of figure the two approaches meet up an Candidate Recommendation, when even the Enterprise folks have to implement everything.
#
tantek
bengo - for example, we've demonstrated here (#indiewebcamp) that not only is there no need for verbs (which the WG did actually accept last year at TPAC), but there is no need for a separate notion of "activities"
#
sandro
I guess I don't see how a "semblance of equivalence" is very helpful. I mean, I guess it's better than competing standards that have no semblance of equivalence, but it's not nearly as good as one standard, right?
#
tantek
not to mention bikeshedding "author" into "actor"
#
tantek
sandro - no, it is better than "one standard" because at least with multiple approaches there is a chance for iteration and improvement
#
tantek
whereas with one uber standard that everyone needs their pet features in, you get bloat and unimplementability
#
bengo
I agree with your first post there, but it's not really a 'for example' of how I was oversimplying
#
tantek
or a very high bar for implementability, and thus only enterprise solutions, which is again, bad for the market (but good for enterprise coffers)
#
bengo
All I care about is that the AS2 draft is super useful to the projects I get paid for and mf2 is only useful for about 1/10th of the applications
#
tantek
there really is a tension between small minimal standards, and standards that enterprises and all their customers "want" (i.e. don't actually know if they need or not)
#
tantek
bengo - if such uses exist, you can help by documenting the use-cases
#
bengo
Throwing DOMEvents to my customers: http://livefyre.github.io/activity-vocabulary/
#
bengo
in JS/JSON
#
tantek
part of the problem with AS2 now (and why current mf2 approaches are much smaller) is that there aren't the real world use-cases to justify AS2
#
bengo
not HTML
#
tantek
bengo - HTML is just the foundational language of communication on the web, you can have the JSON version if you want - as defined by microformats2 parsing and implemented by multiple parsers
#
sandro
*nod* Hmmmm. Could the idea of a Core + Modules address this, tantek?
#
bengo
(ignorance) Is there a formally specified JSON representation of mf2? I was under the impression that each parser parsed to a different set of keys?
#
tantek
sandro - theoretically core + modules could help, if had a chance of agreeing on what a minimal core would be
#
sandro
mf2 as the core?
#
sandro
(not that I'm proposing that, just exploring)
#
tantek
bengo yes! formally specified JSON representation of mf2: http://the divergence in technology development methodologies
#
tantek
ugh copy fail
#
tantek
parsers implement that algorithm and output the same set of keys (modulo any issues/proposals in progress), tested with a test suite
#
tantek
sandro - bengo is right that the vocab is key for a minimal core, based on perhaps mf2 vocabs e.g. what we're using with h-entry etc.
#
bengo
@tantek Thanks for link. I'll research.
#
tantek
bengo - this was one of the requirements for mf2 - since 2009!
#
tantek
to have canonical JSON output
#
bengo
With that, it seems very possible to create a @context for that JSON structure and then you have interop mf2->AS
snarfed joined the channel
#
bengo
at semantic level
#
tantek
maybe - again, we're using Atom semantics via h-entry, while AS2 diverged from Atom semantics and made up a bunch of its own
#
bengo
JSON->HTML always has many ways to do, which is maybe what James got frustrated with
#
sandro
bengo, I think the problem is that mf2 and as2 model the world differently. Different words (vocab), different concepts. The syntax differences are easy to handle in comparison.
#
tantek
sandro - even h-entry started with Atom semantics (and terms) as a "core" and added "modules" to it, like replies, likes, photos
#
tantek
sandro, so you might say we've already been taking a core + modules approach
mlncn joined the channel
#
tantek
because yes, that's a more practical approach
#
tantek
JSON->HTML usually doesn't make much sense, it's one of the problems of JSON, you lose too much context
#
tantek
but that's ok, we'll be debating some other context-lossy format alternative in 5-10 years
#
sandro
sure, the question is whether the as2 folks can live with some reorganization that gives a common core than mf2 also can live with.
#
tantek
sandro - I'm not sure, as the only "as2 folks" that transitioned from the group that invented and developed AS/AS2, into Social Web WG, is IBM (and James)
#
tantek
all the other participants in AS have given up
#
tantek
none of the authors of the original AS spec, or leaders in the AS group/mailing-list actually have activity streams on their own sites, or work on anything related any more
#
tantek
only James is left carrying the torch for AS :(
#
sandro
I agree the lack of others is disappointing. How would you characterize Evan/activitypump's use of AS2? "fantasy"?
#
tantek
no, pragmatic attempt at re-use at the closest thing to what he wants
#
tantek
because he's likely tired of specs/formats/protocols arguments/discussions
#
sandro
so, is he not then an AS2 user like James?
#
tantek
he's also so good of an implementer, that despite the specs being hard or complex, he'll likely be able to implement them, but that's not actually useful to "standards" in the long term
#
tantek
e.g. what happened with Salmon
#
tantek
sandro - no he's not
#
tantek
he's using the AS/JSON not AS2 IIRC
#
tantek
because that's as far as the previous group got
bengo joined the channel
#
tantek
I was thinking of trying to implement that myself just to try to get my site to interop with pump.io
#
tantek
and gain experience with it - to hopefully figure out how to easily convert mf2 h-entry to pump.io AS/JSON
#
sandro
My understanding is pump.io uses as1 and activitypump, intended to replace pump.io, is slated to use as2.
#
tantek
!tell gRegorLove: next time anyone (designers, UX) tell you that we need "simpler" dates on the IndieWebCamp wiki events, and propose US-centric things like Month Day, Year etc., please show them https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312 and tell them IndieWebCamp is global, not US-only.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
sandro
I need to run... to be continued.
#
tantek
sandro - the "slated to use" is something I've never understood
#
gRegorLove
Am I forgetting some context on dates?
#
Loqi
gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 47 seconds ago: next time anyone (designers, UX) tell you that we need "simpler" dates on the IndieWebCamp wiki events, and propose US-centric things like Month Day, Year etc., please show them https://twitter.com/amazingmap/status/599931666803597312 and tell them IndieWebCamp is global, not US-only. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433812361595
#
tantek
I expect to see more convergence between activitypump and micropub first
#
tantek
gRegorLove: yes - the Great Wiki Redesign of 2014 that as part of it had redone the Events page for US-centric dates
#
tantek
complaining that ISO Dates were "too hard" or "confusing" or something
#
tantek
really tired of arguing with US-centric designers that their Month Day, Year dates suck for any kind of global community
#
gRegorLove
So I guess that's your feedback for /Template:one-day-event :)
#
tantek
and "09 April 2014" confuses US folks
bengo joined the channel
#
tantek
we have to admit/accept that 1) we have an international community in IndieWebCamp, and 2) there's still a big critical mass of that community in the US
#
tantek
so both Month Day, Year and Day Month Year are not acceptable as a result
#
tantek
the best (least worst) option is to go with what's most internationally understandable and least confusing across the set of folks the community interacts with and that's ISO dates.
#
gRegorLove
That template wasn't part of the Great Wiki Redesign though, just something I'd started working on before
j12t and bengo joined the channel
#
tantek
gRegorLove: yeah that github issue was likely it - thought I saw it as part of the great redesign which is why I think I collapsed the two. commented on the issue with those citations.
snarfed joined the channel
#
gRegorLove
I can change that in the template easily enough. Want all the digits the same size, or still emphasize the dd a bit more than yyyy mm?
#
kylewm
wait, ActivityPump is a replacement for pump.io?
#
tantek
kylewm: hard to tell. I tend to look at what people are shipping today, rather than what's rumored to be a replacement tomorrow.
#
gRegorLove
Maybe "yyyy-mm" acorss the top in the regular font size, dd on the line underneath, larger?
#
gRegorLove
experiments
#
kylewm
I'll be shocked if they backport a new AS spec/vocab to pump.io
#
tantek
kylewm: who knows, I was pretty shocked by the reset-button on statusnet myself
#
kylewm
would be great to see development on pump restart though
#
tantek
kylewm: I'm curious about what use-cases pump solves for you
#
gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+0) "/* Testing date display */"
(view diff)
#
acegiak
GWG: While we're discussing it, can we get an update to timestamp display in MF2_s for ISO8601?
#
kylewm
tantek: I used it for a while as a social network, liked it pretty well. and I think it would be a good foundation to build a personal site on
#
kylewm
i mean it's basically like Known with a reader, without indieweb interop?
#
gRegorLove
tantek: Still trying to keep it in a square box. Thoughts? https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox#Testing_date_display
#
tantek
kylewm: yeah, Known with an integrated reader the way pump.io does would be sweet
#
tantek
you and several others are way ahead on building indie-readers, I hope someone manages to integrate one into their own site in a integrated-reader approach like pump and other social networks
#
tantek
gRegorLove: I don't know about the vertical displays - especially internationally
#
tantek
ISO Dates work best as plain text all in a row horizontally. as soon as you start messing with that, all bets are off
#
kylewm
oh, pump also has ACLs and following/follower relationships, that is kind of a big difference
#
tantek
e.g. see what W3C does - I'm not convinced these are any better either: http://www.w3.org/participate/eventscal.html
#
kylewm
totally agree it would be great to bring some of that into our projects
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek
kylewm: yes - as did statusnet before it
#
tantek
which is why I'm a bit surprised by all the changeover
#
kylewm
my understanding is that statusnet was basically just too expensive to scale
#
kylewm
(identi.ca that is)
#
tantek
that doesn't make sense - shouldn't the answer be lots of smaller servers?
#
kylewm
and he runs pump for a fraction of the cost
#
tantek
not just one site?
#
gRegorLove
Well, do we even need a separate date listed on the left then? My initial concept was a larger visual cue when scanning the list to see when the events are. The ISO date is already listed beside "When" so maybe drop the square icon
#
kylewm
but that didn't really happen with statusnet right? people mostly used identica i thought
#
tantek
right, it was too difficult to build something that interoperated with it
#
gRegorLove
(As much as I like the square icon)
bengo joined the channel
#
tantek
identica/statusnet became its own monoculture
#
tantek
despite trying really hard to be based on open standards (OStatus stack)
#
tantek
what is OStatus?
#
Loqi
OStatus is a suite of protocols for distributed social networking: https://indiewebcamp.com/OStatus
#
tantek
openness is insufficient to avoid monoculture, you can have a completely open but very hard to implement set of protocols/formats, which will result in few or maybe only one implementation
#
tantek
gRegorLove: the calendar / date "badges" do look pretty cool
#
tantek
I just don't know the best way to make them internationally understandable
#
tantek
sorry for not being more helpful about that
#
gRegorLove
No worries. I'll think about it some more and play around with ideas.
#
gRegorLove
And probably get back to my own site in the meantime. :)
#
kylewm
Acegiak: did you already implement sending webmentions upstream when you receive a comment?
#
bengo
tantek is there a similar doc to http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing but for that parsing to a 'default' HTML rendering? Wouldn't be as useful but just checking.
#
tantek
nothing like that no
#
bengo
kk jc
#
tantek
someone could certainly write one - and you could even markup the JSON pretty-printed out put with microformats to have a fully-round-trippable JSON pretty print
#
tantek
s/out put/output
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: someone could certainly write one - and you could even markup the JSON pretty-printed output with microformats to have a fully-round-trippable JSON pretty print
#
bengo
Totally. I hadn't seen that jasnell intends to remove mf2 from the AS Vocab draft until sandro posted earlier (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433810659786), which is kind of a bummer.
#
bengo
Makes me want to take up his challenge of "What I would strongly encourage is for those members of the WG who
#
bengo
have an interest in the Microformats syntax to produce a draft Note
#
bengo
that details the mapping of the AS2 vocabulary to the Microformats
#
bengo
model, with correct examples. I do not have the time to help edit such
#
bengo
a draft Note."
#
bengo
Can't promise, but I may start something to help with that
#
bengo
Regardless of whether w3vocab is 'good' or 'bad' in the conventions it lands on, The web ought to have an mf2->w3vocab thing
snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell bengo why not help make w3vocab just not suck in the first place?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
acegiak
kylewm: I think I did?
#
acegiak
I just don't have the skills to implement the parsing of child comments
#
tantek
when did Branch.com shutdown?!?
#
kylewm
Acegiak: I'll try to implement receiving downstream comments so we can test
#
tantek
wow that just happened a few days ago!
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
tantek
I'll leaving you tonight for now with http://branch.com/b/why-are-silos-beating-the-light-out-of-an-open-social-web and the cached version:
#
acegiak
kylewm: neat
lukebroo_ joined the channel
#
tantek
and my indieweb reply http://tantek.com/2013/073/b1/silos-vs-open-social-web which as predicted: "(where it will likely last longer than this branch post)"
emmak joined the channel
#
gRegorLove
That branch.com cache link doesn't work for me.
#
Loqi
slack/snarfed: acegiaj kylewm can't wait to see the comment propagation!
#
Loqi
slack/snarfed: s/j/k/
brianloveswords, wolftune and bengo joined the channel
#
GWG
acegiak: Can you add it as an issue so I don't forget? I'm ob holiday and ny coding is sporadic.
#
acegiak
GWG: can do
petermolnar joined the channel
#
GWG
acegiak: Add as many suggestions as come up as issues. Gives me something to do.
#
GWG
My next project is mf2_s.
#
kylewm
GWG: acegiak: I filed an issue on Post Kinds about repost markup: https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/issues/24
#
GWG
I still assumed that reposts would have the content in the content box.
#
kylewm
GWG: i don't know what that means. does wordpress make my suggestion difficult to implement?
#
acegiak
kylewm: I thought I was preserving html?
#
acegiak
maybe the class is wrong?
#
kylewm
it gets flattened to plain text because it's p-content instead of e-content, but the suggestion to put h-cite inside the outer e-content is more radical
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
GWG
kylewm: I was commenting that. acegiak wasn't using it the way I thought, so I have to adapt to that.
#
GWG
But I will try a few things
#
acegiak
hmm ok I see
#
acegiak
h-cite is not part of the post content and shouldn't be stacked that way in the dom
#
GWG
acegiak: Time for a custom template for reposts.
#
kylewm
acegiak: sanity check -- I do not need to change anything about webmention handling except parsing a reply should pull in comments on it too?
#
kylewm
GWG: any reason not to always use e-content for h-cite?
#
acegiak
kylewm: that's all I'm thinking, yeah
#
GWG
kylewm: Inside the h-cite?
#
acegiak
makes sense to me
eschnou, snarfed and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
quick post about Branch in response to my colleageu @brianoberkirch: https://twitter.com/t/status/608143971206848512
#
@t
@brianoberkirch 2y ago you posted @Branch, I replied on my site “where it will likely last longer”. It did: http://tantek.com/2015/159/t1/branch-replied-my-site-last-longer
(twitter.com/_/status/608143971206848512)
#
tantek
s/colleague
wolftune, loic_m, friedcell and mlncn joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /site-deaths (+769) "Branch shutdown"
(view diff)
elima joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (-14) "SF location confirmed - first floor Java room"
(view diff)
Phae, benward and tommorris joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell kylewm SF location for 2015-06-17 confirmed! https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club#Where could you create an indie event and FB POSS copy for the SF event? Thanks!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
kronda, gRegorLove and JonathanNeal joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell adactio looks like my addition of timezone to my dt-published caused a datetime parse error on your site when I webmention one of your posts from a reply: https://adactio.com/journal/9016#comment19204
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
bret, csarven and mattl joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell adactio you may need to update your microformats parser phpmf2 to the latest version, as the test parser on pin13 (which also uses phpmf2) has no problem with my permalink and dt-published: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com/2015/159/t2/of-the-indieweb-because-silos-die
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
tantek
thanks csarven
jden and glennjones joined the channel
ramsey joined the channel
#
csarven
Is anyone using hFeed -> Atom/RSS or is that oldskool nowadays?
voxpelli, Jihaisse and fkooman joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell dym_cx re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-06/line/1433623439412 use p-category on your h-card to tag yourself, what you're about, your interests etc. simple flat folksonomy, and a "good enough" publishing solution to the "find me people into the same things" use-case.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
bigbluehat, jancborchardt, hugoroyd, friedcell, csarven, rknLA, eschnou and Garbee joined the channel
CaptainCalliope, pfefferle, eschnou, KevinMarks_ and Sebastien-L joined the channel
frko and tsyesika joined the channel
#
acegiak
kylewm: if you're still up I just approved that comment, did the webmention go through?
#
acegiak
otherwise I'll try again with an update
#
acegiak
I'll send an update one now and see
#
acegiak
update sent
#
acegiak
!tell kylewm well that's not worked :/
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
GWG
acegiak: If you want Iso8601, what about the time?
friedcell, glennjones, stream7 and pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
GWG
Hello, pfefferle
#
pfefferle
good morning GWG
#
Loqi
pfefferle: Zegnat left you a message 6 days, 11 hours ago: Thank you for the links this morning, /Impressum is now a thing! I have linked you as one of the IndieWeb Examples, hope that is OK? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-02/line/1433280494541
#
GWG
pfefferle: I'm still thinking about the notifications. Does that belong in webmentions, semantic linkbacks or both?
#
pfefferle
GWG hmmm, I think both… perhaps the semantic linkbacks plugin can disable the webmention one, if both are installed
#
pfefferle
something like remove_action/remove_filter or so
petermolnar joined the channel
#
GWG
pfefferle: I've been getting a lot of notifications due to my recent post increase. Given me time to think about
KartikPrabhu, Zegnat, friedcell, nt0, elf-pavlik, KevinMarks_, lukebrooker, squeakytoy, evalica, Pierre-O, LauraJ, LanceyWork, adactio, csarven, frzn, pfefferle and mlncn joined the channel
LauraJ, pfefferle, evalica and nedorito joined the channel
tantek, KartikPrabhu, ttepasse, mlncn, LanceyWork, LauraJ, scoates, eschnou, jjuran, wolftune, fourtonfish, evalica, snarfed, friedcell, cmhobbs, bdesham and adactio joined the channel
#
Loqi
[mention] Marco Arment reshared a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/posse (http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7797/1/6/)
chalettu, KartikPrabhu, pfefferle, evalica, stream7_, LanceyWork and dym_cx joined the channel
#
kylewm
!tell acegiak ok fixed some issues on my side, but now I'm having trouble parsing your replies. you probably don't want to mark up the header as e-content, and probably do want to add "p-comment h-cite" to comments
#
Loqi
kylewm: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 5 minutes ago: SF location for 2015-06-17 confirmed! https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club#Where could you create an indie event and FB POSS copy for the SF event? Thanks! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-08/line/1433830151498
#
Loqi
kylewm: acegiak left you a message 6 hours, 55 minutes ago: well that's not worked :/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-09/line/1433837914264
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
dym_cx
is ".p-language" an acceptable microformats class for spoken/witen languages on h-card/h-resume?
#
Loqi
dym_cx: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 12 minutes ago: re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-06/line/1433623439412 use p-category on your h-card to tag yourself, what you're about, your interests etc. simple flat folksonomy, and a "good enough" publishing solution to the "find me people into the same things" use-case. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-09/line/1433833360661
#
kylewm
interesting that Loqi interpreted that post above as Marco Arment resharing
#
kylewm
when instead it is a post that contains an embeded tweet from Marco Arment
#
aaronpk
kylewm: yeah, haven't figured out why
#
aaronpk
there is a child h-entry which is a repost-of marco's post
ben_thatmustbeme and tvn joined the channel
#
Zegnat
dym_cx, re: p-language, maybe use h-resume’s p-skill? (Also, #microformats might be the place to discuss that.)
#
dym_cx
Zegnat, ok i ask on #microformats as well
snarfed and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
gRegorLove joined the channel
#
snarfed
hey tantek
#
LanceyWork
kylewm, just noticed a sort-of-bug with the way i was parsing contexts. sent a new pull request that should alleviate it
pfefferle joined the channel
#
Zegnat
good morning tantek
#
tantek
!tell dym_cx re: spoken/written languages - I believe "skill" was proposed for h-resume, no examples so far of publishing that info on an h-card AFAIK - what's the URL to your personal site with h-card?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
KitB joined the channel
#
tantek
thanks Zegnat! was just checking that
evalica and friedcell joined the channel
#
@adfskitteh
"If you manage usernames & pwds, you are a toxic waste farmer. Do your business partners understand that risk? Does your board?" #CISID15
(twitter.com/_/status/608305409091338240)
Deledrius joined the channel
#
dym_cx
tantek, Zegnat: ok, made a compromise and used ".p-skill-language", also i tried out http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdym.cx and
#
Loqi
dym_cx: tantek left you a message 16 minutes ago: re: spoken/written languages - I believe "skill" was proposed for h-resume, no examples so far of publishing that info on an h-card AFAIK - what's the URL to your personal site with h-card? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-09/line/1433865883264
#
dym_cx
...and .h-card on <body> fails
#
tantek
dym_cx: also in mf2, when you're using an experimental property like that (which expect others to also experiment with, perhaps eventually make standard), use -x- before the name, but after the p
#
tantek
e.g. p-x-skill-language
#
dym_cx
wouldnt p-x-language be better, in cases of just pointing out the language some article is written in?
#
bret
what is the purpose of the -x- prefix again?
#
Zegnat
dym_cx, if you just want to notice the language of content use of the lang attribute seems enough to me
evalica and yakker joined the channel
#
dym.cx
edited /p3k (-43) "/* pзk */ caseorganic.com runs on wordpress currently"
(view diff)
wolftune joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, need to decide on a name for my indieauth implementation
#
aaronpk
oh you're running it as a service?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
running on the same server as mine to start, just on a different domain
#
ben_thatmustbeme
well... it is a service now really, anyone can use it if they want, but its not SSL
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and it would be better on its own site
#
gRegorLove
How about "thatmustbeauth" :)
#
tantek
nowthatswhaticallauth
#
oddvar
icantbelieveitsauth
#
ben_thatmustbeme
sounds like the compilation cds
#
Zegnat
indieauthisstrongwiththisone
#
gRegorLove
That's what I thought too
#
aaronpk
is there a .ne TLD?
#
Zegnat
according to Wikipedia there is
#
dym_cx
itsa.me
#
Zegnat
aaronpk: ccTLD for Niger
#
Zegnat
Only 412 USD, according to one registrar
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i was trying to find rhymes with auth, like Slauth, and then just do a backronym for the SL part.... but slauth is a thing for second life auth
#
dym_cx
knights who say .ne
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: what was that TLD that gives domains for life?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what random country?
#
aaronpk
romania
#
aaronpk
"The registration is 51,26$+VAT(24%), one-time payment. There is no yearly fee at present. When yearly fee will be introduced, you will be informed."
#
ben_thatmustbeme
amber recommends against getting a .ro but then link doesn't explain at all
#
aaronpk
it was a comment she made during a demo
#
Loqi
slack/zero-gravitas: <http://ruh.ro|ruh.ro>
#
ben_thatmustbeme
ahh, reasoning?
zero-gravitas joined the channel
#
aaronpk
i think just because the hassle of getting it plus the uncertaintly of the registration fee
benborges joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
there is a .th TLD
#
ben_thatmustbeme
awww.... only .in.th
#
Zegnat
auth.in.th/e/house
#
dym_cx
2-letter domains are not for purchase b/c of possible overlap with counties TLDs see the .uk.co fiasco
#
dym_cx
is indie.web a valid url? i mean is .web a thing?
#
aaronpk
.website is a thing
#
tantek
^^^ you're just asking for squatters to take those to get the indiewebcamp domain link juice huh?
#
tantek
from the archives
#
Loqi
hehe
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hahaha... i love TLDs somtimes
#
dym_cx
auth.bar
#
Loqi
awesome
#
ben_thatmustbeme
.red those who like the colour red
#
dym_cx
wolf.red for Grimm lovers
elima joined the channel
#
dym_cx
who got the http://indieweb.camp/ ?
#
aaronpk
oh xtof did
#
dym_cx
cool
#
dym_cx
indie.diet :D
#
aaronpk
auth.porn <-- perfect
#
dym_cx
login.global
#
dym_cx
auth.porn soundns like "authentic porn"
#
aaronpk
fine, login.porn
#
dym_cx
:thumbsup:
#
dym_cx
free.land
j12t joined the channel
#
dym_cx
facebook.rehab
#
dym_cx
or more general silo.rehab
eschnou joined the channel
#
kevinmarks.com
edited /recipe (+270) "/* Silo Examples */"
(view diff)
snarfed, csarven and bengo joined the channel
#
aaronpk
auth.casino ... logs you in as a random person
#
ben_thatmustbeme
you have to keep trying until you randomly get access to your own account
bengo, friedcell and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /next-hwc (+0) "update to next week"
(view diff)
snarfed, bengo, cmhobbs, LCyrin, elima and elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (+85) "/* URLs */ links to SF event"
(view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronpk
haha thanks
#
@jarofgreen
@rhiaro Just noticed @OpenTechCal birthday is day before #indiewebcamp :-)
(twitter.com/_/status/608361607907930112)
#
tantek
aaronpk, btw IndieWebCamp 2015 Brighton site has 25 people now!
#
tantek
(I mean, that's awesome, and way to put the pressure on us here in Pacific Time :) )
nedorito and ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
snarfed
tantek: 44 would be nice too! i did actually mean 39 though, for clustering, to collapse floods into a single msg per X minutes
#
GWG
(I need to double my efforts in NYC I guess)
#
tantek
snarfed - different kind of clustering though - not sure if that matters
#
GWG
tantek: As it is on-topic, what alternative would you suggest for the h-as-* properties?
#
tantek
e.g. one post linking to many IWC URls
#
tantek
vs. many posts linking to the same IWC URL
#
tantek
39 is about the former
#
tantek
44 sounded like it was more about the latter in particular for invitations but perhaps I misunderstood
#
snarfed
ah, i see. i think 39 is actually about the latter, but the example in it is wrong
#
tantek
GWG, the alternative to h-as-* classnames is ""
#
snarfed
(iirc aaronpk has confirmed this before)
#
snarfed
oh actually the language is for multi target too
#
snarfed
i think in aaronpk's head it applies to both multi source and multi target. i'll ask him to clarify.
#
tantek
ok cool, as long as both get fixed :)
#
snarfed
(also i think 44 isn't about clustering at all, either direction, but just about nicer msg text)
#
kylewm
GWG: wordpress question. does Post Kinds also determine mf2 markup on comments?
#
GWG
kylewm: No.
#
GWG
There are a variety of different contributors.
#
GWG
Any site in particular?
#
kylewm
yours and acegiak's, I want the comments to be wrapped with p-comment h-cite
#
Loqi
gives kylewm the comments to be wrapped with p
#
kylewm
comments are currently "children" of the parent h-entry, it'd be useful to me if they were in the "comment" property
#
GWG
kylewm: That would be an issue to file against mf2_s then
#
tantek
oh yeah! that would also provide more citable examples for the "p-comment" proposal in h-entry
Crimlo joined the channel
#
GWG
It's on my list to fix. I had superseded it with the Semantic Comments plugin which did do it as you noted, but had to disable that because the solution was problematic for other reasons.
#
Crimlo
Gs up Hoes downnn!
#
tantek
which makes me realize I should ask, is anyone marking up the responses to their posts with p-comment or u-like or u-repost?
#
Crimlo
fuck your post
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
tantek
Crimlo - that's not very nice, are you here for working on your own website?
#
Crimlo
yes
#
Crimlo
i am
#
Crimlo
but i troll a channel everytime i enter
#
tantek
just FYI - we do have a code-of-conduct: https://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct
#
Crimlo
is that a problem?
#
Crimlo
oh
#
Crimlo
sorry, i had no idea
#
tantek
np - just wanted to be clear about that - I know it's not necessarily obvious.
#
Crimlo
well knowing is half the battle
#
GWG
kylewm: It's actually a priority for me to fix the markup. And since acegiak uses a child theme of the mf2_s starter theme, that should trickle down
#
kylewm
great
benborges joined the channel
#
snarfed
tantek: i think some of us do that response markup
#
GWG
tantek: Re your question, are you?
benborges joined the channel
#
tantek
GWG, unfortunately my posts are in general bereft of responses (displayed at least - I know there are plenty in queue at webmention.io)
#
snarfed
(no u-in-reply-to, u-like-of, etc since the comments don't have links to the post)
benborges joined the channel
#
kylewm
adds u-like and u-repost so he can say yes
benborges joined the channel
#
tantek
and the other question is, are those too similar to u-like-of and u-repost-of and thus confusing?
#
GWG
I'm prepared to file an issue against this code suggesting it be amended if that is where the breeze is blowing
#
GWG
That would change snarfed's as well
#
kylewm
tantek: I think they're confusing comment vs. reply, like vs. like-of, repost vs. repost-of, but I think any other alternative would be confusing too...
benborges joined the channel
#
tantek
right, hence the question of how useful is it at all to add p-comment, u-like, u-repost markup at all
#
tantek
i.e. what are the use-cases for consuming it? readers?
#
kylewm
glad you asked!
#
tantek
would rather avoid extra markup, especially if it could/does cause confusion
#
GWG
Counting the number of likes is often a part of reader display
#
kylewm
last night I implemented acegiak's salmentions proposal ... for pulling in downstream comments (replies to replies)
#
tantek
whoa!
#
tantek
oh dear what are salmentions?
#
snarfed
(kylewm took the words out of my mouth. yay upstream comment propagation!)
#
snarfed
kylewm++
#
Loqi
kylewm has 175 karma
#
kylewm
also +1 GWG's suggestion to have readers display {like, repost, ,comment} count
#
kylewm
(thanks snarfed)
#
aaronpk
monocle displays like,repost,reply count!
benborges joined the channel
#
GWG
aaronpk: But how do you extract them?
#
aaronpk
from the markup on the post
#
aaronpk
like when my post shows likes and such, monocle counts the number of likes on the page
#
aaronpk
so it won't see downstream comments unless the site shows them
#
kylewm
using u-like, u-repost, p-comment?
#
GWG
So, there is a use case for u-like then
voxpelli, KevinMarks_ and benward joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /comments-presentation (+202) "IndieWeb Examples section, subheads for each person, add snarfed"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is p-comment
#
tantek.com
created /p-comment (+49) "r"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is u-like
#
tantek
aaronpk ^^^ could you stub with your use-case?
#
tantek
what is u-repost
#
aaronpk
oh is nobody else consuming those yet?
#
GWG
kylewm: I just remembered why I tabled the comments issue
#
aaronpk
i thought it was part of comments-presentation to mark up the received comments with "like" "comment" and "repost" properties
#
GWG
I think it may be now.
#
tantek
aaronpk yes - just wanting more documentation, and a place to provide specific use-cases for each as well as indieweb examples of each
#
vanderven.se martijn
created /Safari_Extensions (+1686) "“wow that’s nuts” —tantek"
(view diff)
#
Zegnat
what are safari extensions?
#
Loqi
Safari Extensions are self contained packages of HTML and JavaScript that modify the Safari browser https://indiewebcamp.com/Safari_Extensions
benborges joined the channel
#
Zegnat
Cool, didn’t mess up with the dfn this time
#
snarfed
oh wow, i just noticed instagram's big web redesign
#
snarfed
(maybe old news)
#
KevinMarks
wow, no text at all
#
Zegnat
Wait, Instagram has a redesign?
#
retout.co.uk
edited /2015/Brighton (+278) "/* Participating */"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
so it is now really the anti http://www.pestagram.com/
#
KevinMarks
though they don't make venues clockable http://www.pestagram.com/loc/4392034
#
kylewm
GWG: why'd you table the comments issue?
#
Jeena
Hi everyone, so I'm in Portland for the next 5 weeks and I would love to meet up during one of those Homebrew website club meetings
#
aaronpk
Jeena: hi!
#
Jeena
I found http://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc#Where but under Portland it still says TBD
#
aaronpk
it usually is until very last minute :P
#
aaronpk
happy to pick a place right now tho!
#
Jeena
and I still haven't had the time to implement RSVP into my website, ...
#
Jeena
I have a coworker who is kind of interested in this stuff too, at least he has his own website and he liked the concept of notes on my website
#
Crimlo
Jeena i can do that for you
#
Crimlo
buuuut
#
aaronpk
sweet! in portland?
#
Crimlo
whats in it for meeeee?
#
Jeena
yeah, he was here for 3 weeks (2 weeks ago) already is now on vaccation in Grece but will be back in one or two weeks
#
Jeena
Crimlo, the thing is the code for my website is closed source :p
#
Crimlo
why
#
Jeena
but mostly just because it is so bad and I have passwords and stuff in the code
#
Crimlo
the site isn't anything special
#
Crimlo
oh ok
#
Jeena
there also parts which aren't visible to the public and everything is just in one big rails application
#
Crimlo
gotcha
hober joined the channel
#
nedorito
jeena what's your website!
elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
Jeena
oh someone critisizes the indieweb (but in german) and uses aaronpk s website as an example http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/
#
aaronpk
attempts to read german
wilfredh joined the channel
#
kylewm
can you give a tgr;dr?
#
Zegnat
I didn’t read it as harsh criticism actually
#
Jeena
I can try when I'm done reading
#
Jeena
but it is long and I have to stop and do work in between because I'm at the office ^^
#
kylewm
no worries
#
kylewm
he's been giving us some interesting test cases for brid.gy
#
aaronpk
he doesn't like my "Reply" link
#
kylewm
in particular, the URL nebenan.hamburg was the impetus for me to add much more thorough TLD handling to my python tweet shortening library
#
aaronpk
coincidentally neither do I :P
#
aaronpk
is about to get his 10,000th webmention
#
Zegnat
I believe Felix tries to get the message across that he gets the idea of the indieweb there, but not the execution. About aaronpk’s Replies link specifically: what does it reply to, why, and why *there*. “What’s on this page? An answer to an answer? Can I answer to that answer too? Where? How?”, “Can I comment here? Where is the comment field? What is a webmention, that I can send from there? Where does it go?
#
Zegnat
” etc.
indie-visitor joined the channel
#
Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
#
Jeena
is about to tweet his 10,000th tweet, but it could take a couple of months for the 150 tweets because I don't use twitter that much anymore
#
Zegnat
It bsically goes on like that. And it seems like he is explaining about the IndieWeb to people, the way he would’ve liked the IndieWeb to have been explained to him
#
aaronpk
sounds like a good case for dropping my sidebar and having a super minimal design https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/90
#
Jeena
aaronpk, just copy my header ;)
#
nedorito
do you guys know anyone who uses .eu?
#
nedorito
just saw I could get first name + last inital .eu which wouldn't be bad
#
aaronpk
(i don't know off the top of my head)
#
Zegnat
“I discovered the indieweb when one of the first versions of Reclaim was done. I learned that what Reclaim does is what the indiewebguys call “PESOS”. The rest I only understood 50%. I read fascinating ideas and concept, but couldn’t do much with them.”
#
nedorito
that's an awesome list
#
Zegnat
A bit over half the article Felix gets very positive about your site, aaronpk, no worries, hehe
#
Zegnat
I especially love the graphic where aaronparecki.com replies “WTF?” to a webmention: http://wirres.net/imagecatalogue/imageview/5524/?RefererURL=/article/articleview/7785/1/6/
#
aaronpk
haha is that webmention verification summarized as "WTF?" "OK"
#
kylewm
that's cool too, the image has its own permalink outside of the article
#
KevinMarks
WTF is this case stands for What Type Format?
#
Zegnat
What is WTF?
#
Zegnat
Come on Loqi, you should’ve known that one!
#
Loqi
who, me?
#
kylewm
assumes KevinMarks is kidding, but it's so hard to tell
#
Zegnat
Felix didn’t know what h-card and h-entry were until he was invited to speak at nebenan.hamburg. And now he has written what I would consider one of the best introductions to the IndieWeb ever.
#
KevinMarks
that looks like a great introto indieweb in german
#
Zegnat
“When I send a webmention from wirres.net to aaronpareki.com, aaronpareki.com checks what that prick has done – aha – a like, and notes it below the article.”
#
Zegnat
(I consulted my mom on translating “der schwenzel” with “that prick” …)
#
kylewm
lol, schwenzel isn't felix's last name?
#
Zegnat
Oh. I guess it is.
#
Zegnat
Well, that’s why I don’t translate texts :p
#
aaronpk
hahaha
#
Zegnat
I assumed it was slang, and she gave the possible translation “tail”
#
Zegnat
is a native Dutch speaker in Sweden (sorry Felix!)
#
aaronpk
Dutch is pretty much German with funny pronunciation, right? :P
#
Crimlo
wrong
#
Zegnat
It is not, aaronpk. Although I grew up close enough to the German border that I can sometimes fake it
#
nedorito
lol zegnat
#
aaronpk
i was mostly kidding
#
nedorito
my girlfriend speaks german and tries to fake dutch sometimes
#
nedorito
it is usually a disaster
#
rhiaro
When you create event posts, do you rsvp to your own events as a separate post, or is the fact you created the event enough to imply you're attending?
#
aaronpk
i usually RSVP to my own events separately
#
rhiaro
I was wondering if I could make a post that's an event and an RSVP to itself
#
rhiaro
but maybe not
#
aaronpk
lol hmm
#
kylewm
rhiaro: incidentally that's how facebook works... you can't create an event without RSVPing "yes" to it
minsky joined the channel
#
aaronpk
good point!
#
nedorito
is there a module being developed for event creation and rsvp tracking?
#
nedorito
via indieweb?
#
Crimlo
nope
#
nedorito
:D I did it guys
#
nedorito
i rtfw
#
Crimlo
LOL
#
Zegnat
nedorito, when you see people discussing things here, like them talking about “RSVP”, you can try asking what it is here in chat and Loqi will tell you:
#
Loqi
dude
#
Zegnat
what is rsvp?
#
Loqi
An RSVP is a type of post that is a reply to an event post https://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
#
nedorito
interesting, ty
#
nedorito
I'm taking all of july off work so, other than 5 days in a canoe, I should be able to get my site up and running
#
nedorito
lots of wiki reading and coding to do
#
nedorito
it's cool that other people list their sites in the wiki, lots of interesting things there
minsky joined the channel
#
vanderven.se martijn
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn (+400) "Add language information."
(view diff)
#
Zegnat
If anyone knows the correct language code for Ancient Greek, please update my profile.
#
Zegnat
I am off to bed, have a good night all!
#
Loqi
sleep tight!
#
kylewm
does anyone know what happened to http://bigboringsystem.com/? (ednapirhana social network thing) ot
#
kylewm
it's been down for a least a few days, maybe longer
#
aaronpk
she went offline
#
aaronpk
"took a break from the internet" for a while
#
kylewm
OK back from tangent, where's a good place to put downstream comments, or replies-to-replies on the wiki? /reply-thread?
#
aaronpk
I would stay away from the term "thread"
#
kylewm
i'm going to put it at /Salmentions if I don't get a better suggestion and then you'll all be sorry
#
kylewm
what is a reply-chain?
#
Loqi
A reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, as part of the context-thread https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-chain
#
aaronpk
how bout that
#
aaronpk
i had no idea lol
#
kylewm
haha yeah, it redirects to /reply-thread ... but talks about the other direction "reply-context thread" in the examples section
#
kylewm
though maybe it's part and parcel of the same thing, just different plumbing for fetching them
Guerillero|BNC and vanderwal joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /reply-thread (+433) "/* Indieweb Examples */ add myself to examples section"
(view diff)
lukebrooker, __number5__ and sammachin joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /reply-thread (+870) "describe mechanism for receiving n-level comments, i.e. "salmentions""
(view diff)
ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
kylewm
I'm realizing there's a little proselytizing to be done to get people to add mf2 to comments at all
#
kylewm
many don't yet
ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_
Give them a demonstrable reason to and they will
#
aaronpk
and testable :P
jansauer joined the channel
#
Loqi
[mention] Amy Guy posted 'IndieWebCamp Edinburgh What? Two-day practical unconference about decentralised social web, owning your data and online presence, and ...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (http://rhiaro.co.uk//1970/01/iwc-edi)
#
Loqi
[mention] Amy Guy posted 'IndieWebCamp Edinburgh What? Two-day practical unconference about decentralised social web, owning your data and online presence, and ...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (http://rhiaro.co.uk//2015/06/iwc-edi)