#indiewebcamp 2015-06-13

2015-06-13 UTC
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@FromTheWastes Bioflash Short Stories by @nrburnette – What are they?... https://fromthewastes11811.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/bioflash-short-stories-by-n-r-burnette-what-are-they/ #amreading #amwriting #indieauth # https://twitter.com/FromTheWastes/status/609510716060647424/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/609510716060647424)
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@misuba So I guess there's no risk of my haranguing people to get their shit together at IndieWebCamp: RelMeAuth doesn't work. (twitter.com/_/status/609530520641384448)
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acegiak morning all!
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rbrt morning!
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@nrburnette RT @FromTheWastes: Bioflash Short Stories by @nrburnette – What are they?... https://fromthewastes11811.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/bioflash-short-stories-by-n-r-burnette-what-are-they/ #amreading #amwriting #indieauth # htt… (twitter.com/_/status/609588864068358144)
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@dym_cx @keriati sup, can i has https://github.com/indiejs for an indiewebcamp project pls, since you kinda abandon it, thx (twitter.com/_/status/609594367263797248)
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@kevinmarks @Suw @kragen @LukeJKendall sure, but which silos are sending flow varies, so keep POSSE going #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/609629440428019712)
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@kragen RT @kevinmarks: @Suw @kragen @LukeJKendall sure, but which silos are sending flow varies, so keep POSSE going #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/609634377258115072)
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csarven !tell tantek Surely you've considered "ttkme:t4bV1" or "ttk.me/ t4bV1" instead of "ttk.me t4bV1"?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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csarven !tell tantek .. and why bother with short URLs? <Insert Cool URIs arguments here>
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: you are talking about permashortcitations?
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ben_thatmustbeme "ttk.me/ t4bV1" wastes an extra letter, and twitter i think will interpret the first part as a URL and create the link, which negates the original point of them
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ben_thatmustbeme "ttkme:t4bV1" is not recognizable as a URL, and also is ambiguous tt.kme? ttk.me? t.tkme? works for this case only because those others are not TLDs, but makes processing messier for sure
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csarven ben_thatmustbeme Pardon me.. I made a typo. I mean to say "ttk.me/t4bV1" (without space)
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csarven !tell tantek ..Made a typo; meant to say "ttk.me/t4bV1" (without space)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme that twitter would just create a a link
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ben_thatmustbeme which wastes more characters
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csarven 1. The design decision there is "overly" concerned about what "Twitter" or XYZ thinks.
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ben_thatmustbeme well its not just twitter but any consumer
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ben_thatmustbeme it sticks the cittation to the text unless its specifically parsed out
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csarven Point being that you can never control how something else will interpret the characters "a b". It is just a string using an arbitrary pattern which is not inline with any existing or widely used system. This is in contrast to "a/b" which at least mimics what is known and arguably meaningful for many.
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ben_thatmustbeme exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme but (ttk.me asdfs) is still recognizable to humans as a URL
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ben_thatmustbeme you are just saying put a url
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ben_thatmustbeme whick you can do
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ben_thatmustbeme which* sorry typing while feeding a baby
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rhiaro interesting last couple of paragraphs at http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitation#More_thoughts_on_use_of
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ben_thatmustbeme for the record, i also dropped PSCs in favor of PSLs
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csarven Let me ask this: What is the fundamental purpose of indicating the citation? And, how is the solution enriching that UX?
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ben_thatmustbeme the fundamental reason was to give a link without making a link as there was not really UI need to return to the original post.
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csarven "a b" in status updates that are not hyperlinks is equivalent to "view only" citations. Pick up any academic paper (in PDF) and see the reference section - just some string that one has to copy/paste elsewhere to retrieve the information - bad UX IMO.
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ben_thatmustbeme give a citation without giving a link
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ben_thatmustbeme the idea is that no back link is needed and is actually convention to not give a backlink when you are reposting the ENTIRE content
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csarven Imagine writing a blog post where the content sort-of links out to related information for the reader, but it is not really "clickable".
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csarven That's not fun to *use*
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ben_thatmustbeme first off, this isn't about citing in a post thats entirely different
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csarven I fail to see why bother with it in the first place. It is adding more complexity (for interpretation) than any practical use.
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ben_thatmustbeme these are on accounts on silos where the is a link in the user profile
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csarven Does it any practical use? Is there any documentation / survey on people copy/pasting "a b" and then changing it to "a/b" to retrieve the resource?
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ben_thatmustbeme why is that needed. its intended to say you never need to click back as there is nothing more there, but in the rare case you do actually care, i want it known that this is published elsewhere
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csarven It sounds like "well, this is a hypothetical solution to a problem that doesn't exist"
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ben_thatmustbeme if a large number of people did copy paste it and change the ' ' to '/' than i would say just drop PSCs and use the PSL
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ben_thatmustbeme thats not what we do, its tantek and others documenting what they do
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ben_thatmustbeme already
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csarven It has near zero use for the machines, and the context is entirely dependent on current trends among few. Not fun for web archaeologists
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csarven Ok
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rhiaro The use for machines is original post discovery, right?
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ben_thatmustbeme consider this case... a post containing only "I
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ben_thatmustbeme "I'm bored"
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ben_thatmustbeme on syndication, "I'm bored ttk.me/ptsxt" ant the link is clickable
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ben_thatmustbeme it would be read as "I'm bored, heres a link explaining it"
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rhiaro I definitely get people complaining about links to posts that don't contain anything extra. But I think if I broke the links, I'd get an equal amount of people complaining my links weren't right (documented on wiki)
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ben_thatmustbeme and clicking through to see the exact content is frustrating and thus bad UI
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rhiaro *but* when pulling enough replies through from different sites, the original copy of the post *is* enhanced
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rhiaro ie. you can click from twitter and see replies from indieweb, facebook, whatever
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ben_thatmustbeme "I'm bored (ttk.me asdfq)" and most will ignore the PSC, especially if they are followers
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rhiaro which I think is enough extra value
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ben_thatmustbeme they will have seen it a lot already
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Zegnat I think rhiaro makes a good point. When is the original post enhanced enough that it is worth linking to? PSC is used for posts when there is no extra content to be had at the website, but comments, likes, etc could count as extra content
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ben_thatmustbeme Zegnat indeed. I honsetly have removed PSCs entirely as I feel that is the case, but I do see their use. the UI of a link thats not labeled as a link to the same content is frustrating UI
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ben_thatmustbeme unless you start putting in "original post: ttk.me/zzzzz"
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ben_thatmustbeme which just takes up much more space
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Zegnat what is psc?
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Loqi A permashortcitation (or permashortid), abbreviated as PSC is a short non-hyperlinked citation to a post permalink, in contrast to a permashortlink which does hyperlink to a post https://indiewebcamp.com/PSC
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Zegnat looks like tantek himself brought up the “richer experience” argument on 2013-11-08, documented on the wiki
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vanderven.se martijn edited /permashortcitation (+544) "/* More thoughts on use of */ Adding rhiaro’s thoughts on enhanced value." (view diff)
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Zegnat There we go, all wikifyed
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rhiaro oh, thanks Zegnat
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Zegnat I am trying to get into the whole “get everything documented” mindset
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KevinMarks Take a look at @Suw's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Suw/status/609627947956314112?s=09
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@Suw @kragen @LukeJKendall Who visits individual blogs anymore? If you want to reach people, you need to go where they are. (twitter.com/_/status/609627947956314112)
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Zegnat I don’t like the “where they are” argument. If you offer feeds, people can access your blog *anywhere*, get notifications, etc.
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vanderven.se martijn edited /short-domains (+23) "/* Permashortcitations */ Add link to main wiki page." (view diff)
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kylewm Zegnat: I've seen lots of people who blog a lot and measure these things say they get MANY more readers when they post on Medium rather than their own site
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kylewm what you say about feeds is technically true, but discoverability is a problem
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Zegnat So, I am not a big Medium user. How does Medium help with discoverability? I often end up on Medium only because people link to good articles. People link to good articles outside of Medium too, and I read those too.
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kylewm like, look at https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/fragmentions-41ef2be9953f
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kylewm i don't use medium either :/
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@edent @shevski great talk - you might be interested in this conference coming up http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Brighton (twitter.com/_/status/609750714605273088)
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kylewm but I guess you can follow a specific author, and also see recommended articles
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Zegnat Does make me wonder how many people actually follow a specific author on Medium, and check in daily to see if they have written something.
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Zegnat Or if people just follow those authors on Twitter for notifications
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Zegnat (Which would also work for personal blogs.)
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GWG !tell acegiak I'm having trouble figuring out where a <p> is coming from when I output comment_text. Any ideas?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_ Medium will show you "what to read next" if you're logged in and email you too
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Zegnat KevinMarks_: does it email you a “what to read next” type of thing? Or only things you have explicitly asked for?
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KevinMarks_ Medium daily digest from authors and publications you have followed
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Zegnat So the daily digests do not actively help author’s discoverability. Because that is the big part here: why would an author be more “discoverable” on Medium than on a personal blog.
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rhiaro aargh why can't I browse twitter by date ranges
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rhiaro is full of regret for not going full-posse sooner
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rhiaro on a related note, has anyone had any look with the twitter export lately? I never get an email to say it's done
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rhiaro my timeline gives up loading at 10 Sept 2014? whu?
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rhiaro (never mind, twitter advanced search can do date ranges)
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Kongaloosh rhiaro: how do you feel about storing your information. You use a DBMS, but it seems like there's a lot of people just storing things as html.
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KevinMarks_ “You can get a site up and running in PHP in a few minutes, and that’s the problem. It used to be the terrible choice you made when you needed to get something done on the Web, but increasingly JavaScript has replaced it as the default terrible choice.”
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KevinMarks_ http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-paul-ford-what-is-code/
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KevinMarks_ Hm, wonder if Paul would take a pull request adding mf2 markup and fragmentions
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/BloombergMedia/whatiscode
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kylewm Kongaloosh: "a lot of people just storing as html" would be an exaggeration. it's an interesting approach, but i think maybe only 1 person here does it
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Kongaloosh kylewm: so most people use a dbms?
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kylewm that might be 50/50, some use a DB, some use files
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Kongaloosh hmm, so what other file-base structures do people use?
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kylewm files with a mixture of markdown/json/yaml/csv/something else
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kylewm if I were building in PHP and wanted to go the file route, I'd take a good hard look at https://github.com/bastianallgeier/library/
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Kongaloosh cheers
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kylewm (but fwiw, I personally went back and forth and use postgres now)
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aaronpk Kongaloosh: I store everything in files (yaml+markdown) but have a database which indexes everything except the post content. makes it easier to query by tags and date ranges
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Kongaloosh mmm, that's the road I was thinking of going down
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aaronpk if the DB is corrupted I can easily re-create it because it doesn't store the canonical version of anything
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aaronpk also makes it easier to synchronize between my dev copy and live site, because syncing files is easier than syncing DBs
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aaronpk here's some more background on my setup http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Database
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Kongaloosh ah, thanks
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aaronpk you'll find similar background on some of the other project pages as well
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/Red_Wind http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon
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Zegnat aaronpk, have you had enough database corruptions to warrant building such redundancy? Or is that just a lucky side-effect?
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aaronpk i havent had my personal site db fail yet, and I have managed to keep quite a few mysql DBs around for many years. I think the bigger reason I like this is I don't have to worry about syncing data between my laptop's DB and the server's
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aaronpk I have definitely had other databases fail on me in the past though
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Zegnat I managed a lot of forums throughout the years and I have never had mysql fail on me, so I was just wondering :)
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aaronpk as long as you're diligent about backups and exporting to SQL text when you need to upgrade mysql versions is isn't a problem
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aaronpk it definitely takes conscious effort tho
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Kongaloosh yeah, I'd rather take a lazy approach.
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aaronpk i'm much less confident in my ability to admin a postgres database, even though there are so many things about postgres I like better than mysql
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kylewm aaronpk: that bastianallegier project sounds really similar to what you do, flat files with some redundant data in SQLite (intead of mysql) for indexing
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aaronpk oh nice! it looks like a generic data store rather than something content-aware
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aaronpk i had a great time chatting with bastian during indiewebcamp germany
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aaronpk wow, the wiki header was using an image to get that gradient since it was made so long ago
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@Petersell @ChrisAldrich @withknown I am sure I will. Looking for a way oft connecting indieweb and techcomm maybe via markdown by means of DITA OT. (twitter.com/_/status/609812239630102528)
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aaronpk !tell tantek let me know what you think of the new header on the wiki
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk kylewm: have you been relatively happy using flask-themes2 for your site?
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bret woop, automated provisioning of an Arch ARM rasberypi 2, systetemd dynamic DNS, and node up and running
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bret no more sleepy heroku apps
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk wanna host it on my gigabit network? :D
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bret :] maybe
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bret i wanna get it more stable first
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bret burrito time
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bret waiting for DNS to update the first time
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csarven stable burritos is always a top priority.
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aaronpk hrm. i normally don't like templating engines because they invent their own syntax and php *is* a templating engine, but i'm seriously considering using the Blade engine from Lumen http://lumen.laravel.com/docs/templates
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@osbridge Micropub: The Emerging API Standard for IndieWeb Apps by @aaronpk - http://t.co/VOmLNICRxp (twitter.com/_/status/609820290789605376)
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bret nice aaronpk
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aaronpk ohai @osbridge
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bret aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 841 karma
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bret can someone ping pi.bret.io ?
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aaronpk connection refused
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bret :[
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aaronpk port 80 i assume
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bret ping pi.bret.io:22 ?
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Zegnat just pinging works fine for me
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Zegnat --- pi.bret.io ping statistics ---
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Zegnat 16 packets transmitted, 16 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
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Zegnat round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 203.192/280.476/1188.250/235.964 ms
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csarven bret 22 is blocked. 80 is okay.
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bret haha terrible ping
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Loqi haha
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bret definitely cant serve a website off of this
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@aaronpk RT @osbridge: Micropub: The Emerging API Standard for IndieWeb Apps by @aaronpk - http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/1593 (twitter.com/_/status/609822402172710912)
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GWG !tell snarfed You used custom comment code for your site?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed GWG: can you be more specific?
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Loqi snarfed: GWG left you a message 31 minutes ago: You used custom comment code for your site? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-13/line/1434230861490
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snarfed ah, for rendering them. yes. the repo isn't public but here's the code:
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/functions.php.txt
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