#indiewebcamp 2015-06-15

2015-06-15 UTC
#
aaronpk woohoo just made a new file with my brand new micropub endpoint
#
snarfed aaronpk++
#
Loqi aaronpk has 843 karma
#
aaronpk next up is editing and deleting
snarfed, yakker, tilgovi, wolftune, One_Ironaut, KevinMarks__, lukebrooker, icwyd and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
acegiak Morning all!
#
acegiak Anyone have good suggestions for cheap php hosting for a WordPress blog?
#
GWG Morning, acegiak
#
GWG And for the first time in over a week, it isn't true for me
#
GWG VPS or non VPS?
#
acegiak Morning GWG! Not morning for you?
#
acegiak GWG: probably just a shared host. Going for bottom dollar.
#
acegiak A friend is using WordPress.com and just paying for her domain name
#
GWG acegiak: I was in GMT+3, I'm back to GMT-4
wolftune joined the channel
#
GWG acegiak: I have a service that if you pay for a year, will give you a VPS for USD12/year.
#
GWG They aren't bad on reliability.
#
GWG That is why I asked
#
acegiak Trying to work out if I can figure an indieweb friendly solution that is competitive enough to be appealing
#
acegiak GWG: that's an amazing price. What's the stats?
#
GWG Excuse me, $10 a year
#
GWG https://crissic.net/openvz_vps
#
GWG 256mb RAM
#
GWG 50GB storage
#
GWG By the way... https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/418#issuecomment-111897582
#
acegiak Neat!
#
snarfed acegiak: i'm on pair.com shared hosting, and i love it. the lowest tier $6/mo is more than enough for wp
#
snarfed and i definitely recommend shared hosting over VPS for a standard wp user
#
snarfed sysadmin—
#
snarfed but wordpress.com is pretty good. why switch? she wants an unsupported plugin or theme?
#
GWG snarfed: I was just speaking of cheap.
#
acegiak Yeah she's just doing super basic stuff but it would be cool to get her in a spot where she can do indieweb stuff as I lure her down the rabbit hole
#
snarfed GWG: yup, but other factors always still matter
#
snarfed lots of discussion of the tradeoffs on https://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting
#
snarfed acegiak: wp.com can do indieauth, webmentions (via bridgy), and micropub (via silo.pub)
#
acegiak Snarfed: I assumed WordPress.com wouldn't support webmentions etc
#
snarfed no hurry to escape
#
acegiak Hmmm
#
acegiak I'm looking at the hostgator hatchling plan right now
#
snarfed having other good people handle the sysadmin is a *big*, underrated win
#
KartikPrabhu true
#
snarfed shared hosting gets you half of that. a fully hosted service like wp.com or known is all the way
#
acegiak This true! I am definitely projecting my aversion to using third party services onto others.
#
snarfed owning your domain is the key. how far beyond that is up to the individual
#
acegiak Will WordPress.com let us use something like sempress or mf2_s?
#
acegiak Yeah I guess I need to learn to look past my own priorities
#
snarfed acegiak: they whitelist a small subset of themes/plugins
#
GWG snarfed: I doubt they'd whitelist mine. Maybe the webmention one.
mlncn joined the channel
#
GWG The barrier is the same barrier pingbacks and trackbacks have...they became such a spam magnet, no one wants to improve them.
#
GWG I keep trying to overcome resistance.
awolf, snarfed, frzn, rbrt, LCyrin, mlncn and gRegorLove joined the channel
#
gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: Did I infer correctly you're coming to IWC Portland?
#
gRegorLove When I read "must think of a cool thing to show off for IWC"
#
KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: unfortunately not. but it is a good time to show off things even if remotely :)
#
kylewm acegiak: I was very happy with A Small Orange's $35/year shared hosting plan. Also NearlyFreeSpeech.net could be very cheap for a low traffic site
#
Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 18 minutes ago: is there a built-in Connected Service to propagate Known posts automatically to Tumblr? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-14/line/1434321768854
snarfed joined the channel
#
acegiak kylewm: oh neat! thanks!
#
acegiak at the moment I'm looking at webhostingpad.com but it looks like they don't have ssl for their basic package
loic_m joined the channel
#
kylewm SSL is extra for the ones I mentioned too
#
acegiak yeah
lukebrooker, One_Ironaut, cweiske, j12t, lukebroo_, KartikPrabhu, gRegorLove and wolftune joined the channel
#
@ralfheimann RT @diplix: mein vortrag auf der #nebenan-konferenz am 6. juni zum thema #indieweb und blogdings in schriftform: http://wirres.net/7785 (twitter.com/_/status/610328170613633024)
#
@hagengraf @blueforce1 nein, genau sowas brauche ich nicht :) Ich möchte etwas in dieser Richtung haben -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/610330071488925696)
KevinMarks___, LauraJ, Jihaisse, One_Ironaut, KartikPrabhu, Zegnat, lukebrooker and KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
Zegnat Good morning all
pfefferle, squeakytoy, evalica, KartikPrabhu, lukebrooker, friedcell, elima and petermolnar joined the channel
#
@strugee2 RT @aaronpk: Only 26 days until IndieWebCamp! http://indiewebcamp.com/2015 This year in Portland and Brighton! (twitter.com/_/status/610357280156987393)
#
Loqi [bridgy] Alex Jordan favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/610144430209654784)
#
Loqi [bridgy] Alex Jordan retweeted a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (https://twitter.com/strugee2/status/610357280156987393)
pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
petermolnar good morning indieweb
#
petermolnar pfefferle, GWG in case you're around: I'm curious about your opinion about the directions WordPress is going towards with their goals & development lately; IMHO there was no real gain since 4.0 (3.8?) in any actual, real-life use
#
pfefferle good morning
#
petermolnar for example, I'm a bit angry that to disable emoji support, I need to hack the system with hooks & filters; that should be optional and in the core ( reason: the JS fallback they include is a memory eater )
#
cweiske petermolnar, pfefferle - since you are the wordpress guys: is there a way to allow password-protected access to wordpress feeds?
#
petermolnar not out of the box
#
petermolnar probably there's a plugin for it
#
petermolnar or
#
petermolnar in theory it's doable in the webserver itself, but that's tricky
#
cweiske hm.
#
cweiske I got access to a private wordpress blog where you have to log in
#
cweiske but I can't use my feed reader now for it..
pfefferle, Pierre-O, stream7, nt0, scoates_, friedcell and frzn joined the channel
#
GWG petermolnar: I've seen some minor improvements. Bug fixes, a few areas.
#
petermolnar I mostly see eyecandy clutter
#
GWG Plenty of stuff I don't care about, yes.
#
GWG The Press This rewrite, while I don't use it, was a great way to get people sharing, for example.
#
petermolnar true
#
GWG petermolnar: My efforts to get certain changes made haven't born fruit.
#
petermolnar for me it seems like they are concentrating on visuals mostly while the media library backend is still a piece of [] for example
#
GWG Go even lower. There is a proposal for a database abstraction layer to remove dependence on MySQL. No one has wanted to take it on, I guess.
afrogeek joined the channel
#
petermolnar oh, the db debate
#
petermolnar I've nearly forgot about that
#
mey.vn edited /2015/Brighton (+303) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
#
GWG petermolnar: So, let's turn the discussion to a positive. What can we do?
#
petermolnar make a db astraction layer :D
#
GWG I'm more interested in getting Indieweb stuff into WordPress bit by bit.
#
petermolnar well, db is an indieweb antipattern, isn't i? :)
#
GWG petermolnar: I'm not prepared to tackle that one
#
GWG Even within the community, it is a debated topic.
#
petermolnar there's no real debate, it has to be done, especially now that posgres is making a pretty impressive comeback, with native json and faster than solr full text search
#
GWG petermolnar: I meant the antipattern debate.
#
petermolnar oh, that one
#
cweiske some people in here think that db is an antipattern
#
GWG cweiske: That's why I'm not touching that one.
#
cweiske while I count me on the indieweb side, I do not support the db-is-bad issue
#
GWG I think people should use whatever backend storage system they want.
#
GWG petermolnar: Any interest in trying to get linkback improvements into WordPress?
#
petermolnar GWG, cweiske I was kidding with the db-antipattern thing; I just wanted to "justify" that the wordpress-db-issue is indiweb-related
#
petermolnar GWG please give me more details about the linkback improvements
#
GWG The freedom part is, I think.
#
GWG petermolnar: Well, I've mentioned this a few times. People do not think linkbacks are 'useful'. Most WordPress users think of the current built in ones: trackback and pingback, as spam targets.
#
petermolnar don't forget the possibility of using pingback as a ddos originator :/
#
GWG So, if someone proposed adding webmention support to WordPress...people would say it was another target, without seeing a benefit.
#
cweiske GWG, which bug tracker issues do you have for the linkback improvements?
#
GWG cweiske: I don't. I have a few for mf2 that met resistance.
#
cweiske one of the issues/patches would be to get native webmention support into the core, right?
#
cweiske sending/receiving
#
GWG I figure the only way to drum up interest in linkbacks in general, and webmentions as an improved delivery mechanism is to come up with an overall improvement
#
GWG cweiske: Yes. I was just saying that to do it, it has to be a value proposition.
j12t joined the channel
#
GWG I've been trying to come up with an idea on that people can get behind in the community.
#
GWG The WordPress community in this case
pfefferle joined the channel
#
petermolnar GWG I have no idea what could be said that will make the WP community listen to the importance of linkbacks
#
GWG petermolnar: A watered down version of Semantic Linkbacks
#
GWG Improve linkback presentation
#
petermolnar I mean even pingbacks/trackbacks are treated as leftovers; it doesn't seem like anyone cares about the topic itself
#
GWG People thought no one cared about Press This.
#
pfefferle GWG petermolnar I don’t think they will support mf2 any time soon
#
pfefferle GWG any ideas to improve presentation?
#
pfefferle GWG petermolnar Automattic added SemPress to the WordPress.com directory, but they removed all MF2 stuff before :(
#
Zegnat If the proof-of-work part of webmentions were to be further explored, could that be an argument for WordPress to implement it? As it is an anti-spam feature not offered by the existing pinbacks/trackbacks
#
GWG Zegnat: Do we have one? Vouch is limited in its support even in the community.
#
Zegnat GWG: https://indiewebcamp.com/webmentions#proof-of-work
#
GWG pfefferle: You and acegiak have already done some of it. Semantic Linkbacks changes the default trackback and pingback presentations to something nicer.
#
Zegnat If I understand it correctly, you don’t need Vouch, the p-o-w can be checked on the WordPress side of things. No third parties needed.
#
GWG Zegnat: Implementation in the community is still limited. We don't have proof of concept.
#
Zegnat Are there any specific reasons people have chosen not the implement it? I guess that is the biggest hurdle. I am thinking of implementing it once I get my webmention endpoint spinning
LanceyWork joined the channel
#
GWG I'm not sure.
#
petermolnar pfefferle what were their reasons to remove mf2 support from SemPress?
mlncn, csarven, tvn, petermolnar and j12t joined the channel
#
pfefferle petermolnar I don’t know I did not get any feedback at all
adactio joined the channel
#
pfefferle GWG I stuck with the comment feature (facepiles) btw… and I am not sure if it is possible without a custom Walker :(
#
GWG pfefferle: I'm working on a custom walker for mf2_s as my next project.
#
pfefferle I saw that, that’s why I mentioned it ;)
#
pfefferle GWG I experimented with phpcs the last weeks https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-activitystream-extension/blob/master/phpcs.xml
#
GWG pfefferle: My plan is to offer the walker both as part of mf2_s and as a separate plugin.
#
pfefferle We can still integrate it in the Semantic Linkback plugin if you want
#
pfefferle and I started a Grunt-Init plugin for WordPress plugins https://github.com/pfefferle/grunt-init-wordpress-plugin
#
GWG pfefferle: I will be back to you on that once I write it.
#
pfefferle GWG ok
#
GWG Let's See How This Goes Down. https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/32653
#
GWG Premise: Linkbacks are useless.
#
GWG Solution: Make them useful.
#
pfefferle GWG the problem is, that this is how the spec describes it and the WordPress community likes specs
j12t joined the channel
#
GWG Where in the spec does it specify presentation?
#
GWG I just read the thing
#
cweiske pingback spec?
#
cweiske that's an example
#
cweiske not a MUST
#
GWG The pingback spec does not show anything I could find about how to present.
#
cweiske http://archive.cweiske.de/pingback/pingback-1.0.html#TOC5
eschnou joined the channel
#
cweiske Bob's blog also retrieves other data required from the content of Alice's new post, such as the page title, an extract of the page content surrounding the link to Bob's post, any attributes indicating which language the page is in, and so forth.
#
GWG cweiske: I quoted that. But it doesn't say how to display them.
#
GWG It says it retrieves them. Which suggests it uses them to generate a useful display.
#
GWG I'm suggesting the current display is useless and needs to be made useful.
#
GWG My solution is a 'watered-down' version of Semantic Linkbacks, basically.
#
pfefferle what means ”žwatered-down“?
#
GWG pfefferle: Lite?
#
pfefferle ah ok
#
GWG pfefferle: Basically, Semantic Linkbacks without the built-in parsing.
#
pfefferle but what stays if you remove parsing?
#
GWG pfefferle: The display functionality that can be enhanced by plugin.
#
pfefferle but isn’t that the case we actually have?
#
GWG pfefferle: I want to improve the default so people want to use pingbacks and trackbacks again, so we can move them to webmentions, basically.
#
pfefferle GWG ok, got it
#
GWG pfefferle: I've tried an all-in approach where I try to get everything I want. I'm trying something more gradual.
#
pfefferle GWG diplomatic ;)
#
GWG pfefferle: For most people, linkbacks are like the human appendix. It's there, but no one cares about it until a bout of appendicitis(SPAM/DDOS).
friedcell joined the channel
#
GWG People are starting to think the same way about comments and trying to replace them with Disqus, Facebook, etc.
#
petermolnar (or just drop the whole comment-thing, eg. https://petermolnar.eu/blips/why-i-moved-my-blog-from-wordpress-to-ghost-and-why-i-turned-off-comments-along-the-way)
#
petermolnar stupid ctrl-c
#
petermolnar ( the url is https://www.hughrundle.net/2014/02/27/why-i-moved-my-blog-from-wordpress-to-ghost-and-why-i-turned-off-comments-along-the-way/ )
#
GWG petermolnar: Isn't revitalizing linkbacks a way to get to reply on your own site?
#
GWG Baby steps?
#
petermolnar I'm not dropping the support, though I'm not presenting any comments at the moment, but that is a philosophical choice at the moment
#
petermolnar pingbacks are good and useful, but even their author has moved on to webmentions ( http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ ) so I don't really understand why the ignorance from wordpress
alexhartley, eschnou, pfefferle and j12t joined the channel
#
GWG petermolnar: Playing devil's advocate...anticipating the core response.. "Why should webmentions be in core?"
#
petermolnar becase EMOJIS
#
GWG petermolnar: "I'm closing this ticket as WONTFIX"
#
petermolnar I'm aware of the argument methods in the wp community unfortunately
#
GWG I'm trying to subvert from within
#
petermolnar I wonder how many of us though about actually forking WP to make a minimalist core, suitable for interconnected stuff
#
tommorris when I think of WordPress, "forking" isn't the first verb that comes to mind. :-)
#
petermolnar without WYSIWYG editor, without eyecandy, without Google Fonts, emojis, heaviweight brutal javascript but with the actual tools for interconnected sites... oh wait, I might be describing known :D
#
tommorris when I learned that people were using WordPress as an ecommerce system and storing each order as a private post, with people's credit card data as the post metadata...
#
GWG Taking your ball and going home is not necessarily the best solution
#
GWG tommorris: People doing stupid things happens everywhere
#
petermolnar tommorris please tell me you're joking there
#
tommorris the problem with WordPress is that everyone has decided they want to be able to use it for everything. so it becomes the ultimate adaptable ball of string. it becomes a badly designed CMS that consultants who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag use for everything. and they make such a steaming pile of shit with it, that it then becomes unmaintainable
#
tommorris and a massive security vulnerability
#
GWG Either way, I'm going to try to work within the system, even though that may ultimately be futile.
alexhartley joined the channel
#
tommorris petermolnar: nope, it gets worse - because of the new RESTful JSON API that WordPress is adding, all the people doing that kind of stuff are going to have all their data exposed.
#
petermolnar oh, I've realized that; I tried the JSON API plugin and nearly literally screamed when I realized what it's actually doing
#
tommorris it's a good idea in theory, but because of the thousands of ways people are misusing WordPress, it's a hilariously bad idea in practice
#
adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+313) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
mlncn, eschnou, frzn, danlyke_, j12t and fkooman joined the channel
#
petermolnar wow, sum 36 participants for Brighton so far
#
petermolnar that's pretty good
#
GWG Now that I am hone, I need a venue for NYC.
alexhart_ joined the channel
#
petermolnar yeah, I don't know where I'm staying in Brighton yet, prices are "funny" in that city during summer
#
petermolnar it's cheaper to traval there and back for both days w/ train
#
petermolnar s/traval/travel
#
Loqi petermolnar meant to say: it's cheaper to travel there and back for both days w/ train
eschnou, evalica, j12t, tantek, alexhartley, snarfed and wolftune joined the channel
#
@genniebeannie Indieweb POSSE! #ASCUE15 #jimgroom (twitter.com/_/status/610452113613828096)
pfefferle joined the channel
#
Zegnat If I am sending several webmentions to the same domain, should I check for the endpoint URL separately for each linked page or can I assume 1 endpoint per domain?
#
tantek you have to do discovery for each page, since there is no protocol / assumption for sharing such information across pages
#
Zegnat thanks tantek
#
tantek Zegnat: if you find a performance problem/challenge, on either the sender/receiver of webmentions, please document (even if minor evidence) and we can look at it to see what should be done
#
snarfed fwiw, some consumers do make that assumption in the field right now
#
snarfed (not proud of it; just saying :P)
#
snarfed i'd be curious to know if any current webmention receivers use different endpoints per page
#
Zegnat I haven’t seen any actual problems with it. I just thought it was a bit weird to check for endpoint several times if I am sending 3 webmentions to e.g. 3 different notes on tantek.com
#
snarfed (and not expiring endpoints, those are different)
#
tantek Zegnat, snarfed, right and agreed on all points.
j12t joined the channel
#
vanderven.se martijn edited /Webmention (+478) "/* Brainstorming */ checking endpoint once per domain" (view diff)
#
Zegnat is getting the hang of adding all conversations to the wiki
#
tantek Zegnat: it does seem all current implementations / sites put their endpoints at the same URL on a domain regardless of which page is being webmentioned.
#
Zegnat Yeah, I was excepting that to be the case, tantek. But it is not actually a requirement for them to do so. So it remains an uncleared question until properly documented
#
tantek I'm not sure we should add that assumption
#
tantek for one thing, doing so is *less* RESTfule
#
tantek s/RESTfule/RESTful
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: for one thing, doing so is *less* RESTful
#
tantek in REST - every URL is its own endpoint, and the HTTP verbs are the API for that endpoint
#
Zegnat yeah, but then all you would need to do is put in a short HEAD request. Right now all implementations need to parse HTML, which is harder
#
Zegnat I don’t really care either way, to be frank, I was just wondering how people have been implementing it :) I will follow suit
#
tantek Zegnat: if a URL sends back the webmention endpoint in the HEAD with a LINK header, there is no need to get/parse its HTML
#
Zegnat I guess that is true. Maybe I should split my discovery code to always start with a HEAD request only.
#
tantek Zegnat that is what I do now
#
Zegnat Currently I just do a GET and check for the Link header first thing.
chalettu joined the channel
#
csarven Should dreadlocks be mandatory for #indiewebcamp members? Discuss..
#
Loqi csarven: tantek left you a message on 6/14 at 3:04pm: all your /permashortcitation related questions already on the wiki in either "Why" sections or FAQs. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-14/line/1434319471490
#
Zegnat what are dreadlocks?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "dreadlocks" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=dreadlocks&summary=prompted+by+Zegnat+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-15%2Fline%2F1434380471102
#
Zegnat csarven, please wiki it first ;)
alexhart_, pfefferle, j12t, wolftune and KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
@codebear @brianloveswords would I be able to pick your brain a bit in regards to meetup spaces in NYC? We are planning an IndieWeb Camp next month. (twitter.com/_/status/610466848321216512)
#
bear !tell tantek I just learned that Mozilla has a Brooklyn space and a Manhatten space - would you be able to find out if either of those are available for IWC?
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
j12t and alexhartley joined the channel
#
aaronpk I can think of a situation where I would have different webmention endpoints for pages on my domain
#
aaronpk if I publish some sort of flat archive of stuff, like my twitter export, or an old version of my site, I would probably get nginx to serve the webmention HTTP header pointing to webmention.io
#
ben_thatmustbeme yes, thats why you should look up endpoints by the page, not the domain
#
aaronpk but the rest of my site that is running p3k would be using its own webmention endpoint
#
aaronpk yep, just wanting to give an example
alexhartley joined the channel
#
aaronpk more likely to happen first is if we finally build webmention RSVPs into wiki pages, I would be setting a different webmention endpoint for pages that are events
snarfed and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KevinMarks__ Gwg the killer feature for webmention in wp is bridgy support so fb and twitter responses show up too. That's been a lightbulb moment for wp users in the past
gRegorLove, stream7, KartikPrabhu, frzn, j12t, Pierre-O, mlncn, tilgovi, cmhobbs and snarfed joined the channel
#
gRegorLove GWG: Does the WordPress Webmention plugin use the core Pingback functionality? Can you use webmention while disabling Pingback?
alexhartley, wolftune and KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
aaronpk here's a great way to replicate a backup copy of your site to every visitor https://twitter.com/a_de_pasquale/status/608997818913665024
#
@a_de_pasquale Weird 64MB favicon.ico turning out to be a TAR backup of the whole WP site, downloaded by every browser passing by... https://twitter.com/a_de_pasquale/status/608997818913665024/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/608997818913665024)
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
gRegorLove Haha
#
Loqi hahahaha
#
Zegnat Brilliant, though poor visitors grabbing 64MB favicon files all the time
squeakytoy, frzn_, gavinc, alexhartley, snarfed1 and indie-visitor joined the channel
#
Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
benwerd, cweiske, Breadbasket, nxd4n, KevinMarks___, alexhartley, KevinMarks__ and KevinMarks joined the channel
#
cweiske aaronpk, I still get a "Something went horribly wrong!" when trying to use my own indieauth server on indieauth.com
#
aaronpk heh, downside of running indieauth.com on 3 different servers is looking at logs is harder
#
cweiske unless you have a central log server
#
aaronpk i might need to do that
#
bear log services like loggly or logentries has a free level that is nice to use
#
bear the only issue is that they don't retain data for very long
#
aaronpk eh, i'd rather just run syslog
#
bear (or that ;)
wilfredh joined the channel
#
benwerd bear: would you recommend either of those?
#
Loqi benwerd: dym_cx left you a message 1 day, 2 hours ago: [suggestion] compile a list of some sites using withknown http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-14/line/1434298708290
#
Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 6/14 at 3:42pm: is there a built-in Connected Service to propagate Known posts automatically to Tumblr? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-14/line/1434321768854
#
bear @benwerd yes, they both are run by very good teams and have great support (i've used them both for clients)
#
benwerd !tell tantek We just whiteboarded a sprint for this week, and Tumblr is on it
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
benwerd bear: Awesome. Thanks. We need something better than what Elastic Beanstalk is giving us.
#
bear the deciding points for either are the secondary features you need - they both have slightly different takes on what logs are used for
#
@ChrisAldrich Question on @Quora: Is there a simple way to find the permalink URL for a LinkedIn status update? https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-simple-way-to-find-the-permalink-URL-for-a-LinkedIn-status-update?srid=qkX&share=1 #IndieWeb #POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/610526139157577728)
#
aaronpk well that was easy. now I have syslog-ng sending the logs from the other servers to one of them
#
cweiske so shall I try again?
#
aaronpk go for it
#
cweiske you updated something. it does not recognize my indieauth server anymore
#
aaronpk i didn't change anything, but it's possible you ended up ona different server that didn't have that one cached
#
cweiske ah. and I did update something
#
cweiske my index page doesn't send the indieauth header
#
cweiske that's what you get for being user friendly
#
cweiske Something went horribly wrong!
#
cweiske aaronpk, there you go
tilgovi joined the channel
#
aaronpk oh I think it's not sending you the client_id parameter
#
cweiske which is https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/95
#
aaronpk cool
#
aaronpk i'm second-guessing that comment of mine. would you expect to see the client_id of indieauth.com in this case?
#
aaronpk no..my first comment was right. you'd want to see the client_id of the wiki
#
cweiske yes.
#
cweiske not really. indieauth.com should already be showing me that I am logging into the wiki
#
aaronpk cause in this case indieauth.com is just a subsystem of the wiki
#
cweiske do whatever you prefer
#
aaronpk i'm sure one of the options will be the clear winner once I sit down and do it
elf-pavlik, KartikPrabhu and frzn joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/matthaig1/status/610160250130403328
#
@matthaig1 I don't think Twitter is the place to conduct intelligent debate. Like walking into a boxing ring and asking for a game of Scrabble. (twitter.com/_/status/610160250130403328)
glennjones joined the channel
#
GWG KevinMarks: A third party service is proof of concept, but can't be everything
#
gRegorLove Lodging acquired for IWC Portland!
#
aaronpk woohoo!
#
GWG gRegorLove: webmentions piggyback on the pingback system in WordPress
#
gRegorLove GWG: Interesting. I use Disable XML-RPC Pingback plugin on several client sites which removes the pingback.ping method.
#
gRegorLove Not that they're likely to be using the Webmention plugin, but just thought of it and wondered if that might cause problems.
#
GWG gRegorLove: That would still allow webmentions, but if you turn off the settings for sll linkbacks that would affect webmentions
#
gRegorLove Ok, good to know
#
GWG gRegorLove: I want to see if anyone thinks there is value in enhancements before proposing a new standard to support
#
snarfed1 benwerd: bear: re log collection, i can also strongly recommend scalyr
#
benwerd Cool
#
snarfed1 whoa, congrats on the https://kylewm.com/ restyle kylewm!
#
snarfed1 i like it
#
kylewm thanks snarfed1! similar to before, just trying ot make it clearer who is replying to whom
#
kylewm (to better show off salmentions)
#
kylewm still needs some work probably but e.g. https://kylewm.com/2015/06/not-necessarily-threaded-comments-like-reddit-but
#
aaronpk nice
#
aaronpk it's a little subtle which of those is the "main" post on that page
#
aaronpk I'd suggest doing something like making the background of the main one brighter
#
kylewm yeah, you're right it is
#
KevinMarks_ also, acegiak shows up twice
pfefferle joined the channel
#
kylewm hmm, yeah one is https and one is http... I guess I don't de-dupe those
One_Ironaut and eschnou joined the channel
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper created /unmpc (+269) "unmpc Micropub client implemented as Unhosted web app" (view diff)
#
john-ellison.com edited /2015/Brighton (+315) "Added myself (John Ellison) to participants list." (view diff)
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /Micropub (+220) "/* Clients */ += unmpc" (view diff)
#
john-ellison.com edited /2015/Brighton (+2) "Added higher res image for my attendee avatar (John Ellison)" (view diff)
#
elf-pavlik jancborchardt, slvrbckt, raucao ^ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-15/line/1434401812338
snarfed1 and mlncn joined the channel
#
@anna0515 Privatsphäre: Das IndieWeb – eine leise Revolution http://www.gruenderszene.de/allgemein/indieweb via @gruenderszene (twitter.com/_/status/610553922147721216)
#
@anna0515 Privatsphäre: Das IndieWeb – eine leise Revolution http://linkis.com/www.gruenderszene.de/fMqiO via @gruenderszene (twitter.com/_/status/610553932855803904)
#
kylewm elf-pavlik: whoa, awesome, is unmpc up somewhere?
#
kylewm oh sorry I see it now
#
kylewm demo:
csarven and One_Ironaut joined the channel
#
kylewm ah, requires indiecert
#
elf-pavlik resource server dictates authorization server and for now it only works against https://phubble.tuxed.net/
#
elf-pavlik but i will add discovery on html of space page similar as home page has micropub endpoints
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik IMO indiecert.net could delegate authentication to indieauth.com for allowed credentials discovered but other than rel="publickey" (X.509)
#
elf-pavlik and vice versa? ^ aaronpk
#
elf-pavlik what is credentials?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "credentials" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=credentials&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-15%2Fline%2F1434404074576
#
elf-pavlik what is credential?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "credential" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=credential&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-15%2Fline%2F1434404081239
#
elf-pavlik Loqi, how can i quicly bookmark https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/ with tag: credentials ?
#
aaronpk post it on your site?
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk++
#
Loqi aaronpk has 845 karma
#
elf-pavlik i can now just post it with unmpc to https://phubble.tuxed.net/elf-pavlik/
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik done! https://elf-pavlik.github.io/unmpc/?url=https://phubble.tuxed.net/elf-pavlik/
snarfed joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik phubble++
#
Loqi phubble has 1 karma
#
gRegorLove I get an "untrusted connection" for https://phubble.tuxed.net/elf-pavlik/
#
elf-pavlik fkooman didn't wan't to issue cert with StartSSL for his root domain so for now self signed :S
#
elf-pavlik what is letsencrypt?
#
Loqi Let’s Encrypt is a new Certificate Authority intended to be free, automated, and open https://indiewebcamp.com/letsencrypt
#
elf-pavlik letsencrypt++
#
Loqi letsencrypt has 1 karma
#
kylewm gRegorLove: it's CAcert though
#
kylewm which is legit, imho
#
johannesdachsel.com edited /2015/Brighton (+265) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
#
elf-pavlik what is CAcert?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CAcert" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CAcert&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-15%2Fline%2F1434404720779
#
elf-pavlik what is cacert?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cacert" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=cacert&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-15%2Fline%2F1434404728735
#
Zegnat CAcert might be legit, except they do not actually have any of the audits in place to show the world they are legit
#
elf-pavlik kylewm, i plan for secret spaces on phubble using same barer token as for micropub to GET html / json / ...
#
aaronpk probably a missing intermediate cert
#
aaronpk it works fine for me in chrome but some browsers are mor picky
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, did you have chance to look at AS2.0 Action Handlers? copy: http://elf-pavlik.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-actions.html
#
elf-pavlik or http://schema.org/docs/actions.html
snarfed joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik tomorow i wan to see if both mentioned can possibly describe micropub endpoint as action handler for create/update/delete (HTTP POST) or web page for view/read (HTTP GET)
#
kylewm Zegnat: http://wiki.cacert.org/InclusionStatus
#
elf-pavlik http://schema.org/target | http://schema.org/EntryPoint
#
elf-pavlik kylewm, you can try posting to https://phubble.tuxed.net/w3c-social/ from https://elf-pavlik.github.io/unmpc/?url=https://phubble.tuxed.net/w3c-social/
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik it has very improvised ACL with you whitelisted
#
kylewm thanks elf-pavlik :)
#
kylewm that's really cool
#
elf-pavlik tomorrow i will meet someone who implmeneted in javascript ACL based on https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
#
Zegnat kylewm: I seem to recall a lot of the unix-based OS on the cacert list only support it because they use Debian’s ca-certificates, so with Debian shuffling cacert to a separate package we might even see the amount of systems with CAcert included go down rather than up :(
#
Zegnat Relevant Debian discussion: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=718434
#
adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (-1) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
#
elf-pavlik kylewm, i would like to add to unmpc support of saving all messages to personal https://remotestorage.io/ before publishing them on remote spaces like powered by phubble
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, on h-entry wiki page i didn't see equivalentProperty to http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html#dfn-generator
lukebrooker and LCyrin joined the channel
#
aaronpk what is credit?
#
Loqi giving credit is a collection of cultural practices related to acknowledging and attributing text, hyperlinks, quotes, utterances to others, typically by name, as a way of recognizing their contribution(s) https://indiewebcamp.com/credit
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: https://indiewebcamp.com/giving-credit#Crediting_Applications
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk++
#
Loqi aaronpk has 846 karma
#
aaronpk i'm using the client_id for the value there
#
aaronpk client_id being a URL so I can go fetch an h-card
#
aaronpk for the app
#
elf-pavlik unhosted app? :)
#
aaronpk needs a URL anyway
#
aaronpk at the very least as a place for people to find out about it
#
aaronpk but also to "register" the redirect URIs there
#
elf-pavlik fkooman ATM enforces same host for client_id and redirect_uri but for unhosted and native apps it may not work...
#
aaronpk right, that's why if you publish the list of valid redirect URIs on the app's home page (client_id) then it works great
#
elf-pavlik so everyone needs to deploy a home page for app one uses? maybe via https://pagekite.net/
#
aaronpk doesn't matter what is used to generate/host the home page as long as it's available at a URL
#
elf-pavlik i don't see 'posted using' on https://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2015/06/15/080915/
#
aaronpk not all of them have it
#
aaronpk like the ones that are created using a script that just write files to my storage, they don't use any sort of auth process nor do they go through my micropub endpoint, so they don't credit any app
#
elf-pavlik i can't use for client_id something like https://unmpc.local
#
aaronpk no, it needs to be resolvable by the authorization server
#
elf-pavlik but i can run browser based apps this way https://unmpc.local
#
@kevinmarks Is "neither, I have the #indieweb for that" an option? https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/610573770533814272 (twitter.com/_/status/610575810358083587)
#
elf-pavlik and have my web server manage TLS for .local with self issued cert :)
#
bret ew
#
aaronpk remember you're in the indie*web*camp channel here, which is a specific subset of all internet technologies
#
aaronpk so you're going to get web-centric responses
#
aaronpk which means things like public URLs
#
elf-pavlik i understand for resource servers, but for clients like browser based or native apps ?
#
aaronpk if you write, publish and distribute a web-based or native app, you're still going to make a web page for it right?
#
elf-pavlik but people need to fork it to use it :)
#
aaronpk no they don't, you don't fork an app when you downlaod it from Apple's app store
#
bret my site is forkable :]
#
elf-pavlik so redirect_uri will use https://unmpc.local but i can use http://indiewebcamp.com/unmpc for client_id
#
bret https://github.com/bcomnes/bcomnes.github.io
#
aaronpk sure
#
elf-pavlik what about that 'register redirect_uri' part?
#
bret client_id was for client attribution... like old twitter basically had
#
aaronpk put "https://unmps.local" on the wiki page
#
bret "posted by tweetbot"
#
elf-pavlik i can make a page for each instance of an app i use!
#
elf-pavlik and register different devices with different .local redirect_uri
#
elf-pavlik i must admit that i don't understand why i need to keep my .local setup public on app pages :|
#
aaronpk well you only need to if you want to protect against redirect attacks
#
aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuthProtocol#Redirect_URI_verification
#
elf-pavlik "for client_id https://example.com/ a server can find its valid redirect URIs by looking for <link rel="redirect_uri" href="https://example.com/callback"> at example.com"
#
elf-pavlik great links! aaronpk++
wolftune joined the channel
#
@webhat RT @kevinmarks: Is "neither, I have the #indieweb for that" an option? https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/610573770533814272 (twitter.com/_/status/610578790960508928)
#
bret yeah, hacking with aaronpk is a good way to learn about self encoded tokens :]
#
@mathewi RT @kevinmarks: Is "neither, I have the #indieweb for that" an option? https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/610573770533814272 (twitter.com/_/status/610578855485681664)
snarfed joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749#section-2.1 only web application has confidential type?
#
@BullBoardApp RT @kevinmarks: Is "neither, I have the #indieweb for that" an option? https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/610573770533814272 (twitter.com/_/status/610580670100971520)
#
aaronpk elf-pavlik: yeah, the only apps that can maintain a secret are web apps. but in the context of indieauth, client_secret is never used
#
elf-pavlik reading https://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/07/29/1/oauth2-simplified
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
aaronpk wow that's an old post, coming up on 3 years now
#
aaronpk i'm glad OAuth 2 hasn't changed in that time!
#
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: don't jinx it ;)
#
@digitalsista RT @kevinmarks: Is "neither, I have the #indieweb for that" an option? https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/610573770533814272 (twitter.com/_/status/610582808021630976)
edpw joined the channel
#
@MarilynHarding RT @kevinmarks: Is "neither, I have the #indieweb for that" an option? https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/610573770533814272 (twitter.com/_/status/610587002409455616)
edpw, tilgovi and snarfed1 joined the channel
#
@unifex RT @kevinmarks: Is "neither, I have the #indieweb for that" an option? https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/610573770533814272 (twitter.com/_/status/610592083007668224)
benwerd and edpw joined the channel