#indiewebcamp 2015-06-20

2015-06-20 UTC
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tantek perhaps noterlive could detect that and de-dup the # and @
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tantek some of those noterlive notes look like replies to previous notes - do you have an option to post them as replies to yourself so they thread sensibly and show context of their statements?
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tantek e.g. "yes we will make this work too "
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KevinMarks I am only posting them as notes on twitter at the moment
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KevinMarks I need to fix that to micropub the notes too.
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KevinMarks fixed http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-06-17.html
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tantek KevinMarks - no I mean is there or can there be an option in noterlive where you check [x] make this in-reply-to the previous note - and have noterlive automatically do the Twitter tweet threading
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tommorris suggesting that mf2py signs the Contributor Covenant, which is basically a code-of-conduct but for OSS. thoughts welcome. https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/issues/47
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KevinMarks ah I see
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KevinMarks could do
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tantek "Contributor Covenant" sounds culty
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KevinMarks I shoudl also make them inot twitter collections or whatever they call them now there is na api
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tantek tommorris: was there a specific issue that came up? or are you looking to prevent something pre-emptively? or … ?
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tommorris tantek: not in mf2py. in other projects I've seen recently.
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tantek interesting
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tommorris I figure that as an open source project, if you are contributing to mf2py you deserve the same CoC-style protections in project spaces as you do in indiewebcamp spaces.
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KevinMarks works for me as an mf2py contributor
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bear works for me as an indirect contributor
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tommorris awesome. I'll wait a few days and if nobody has any issues, I'll close and implement. :)
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tantek tommorris: I like the intent - but the implementation isn't really that good
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tantek it's too heavy handed on the negative / punishment side
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tantek just as most "anti-harrasment" policies
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KevinMarks the django one was phrased postively
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tantek why not adopt /code-of-conduct instead?
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tantek and frankly, any specifics about "issues, posting feature requests, updating documentation, submitting pull requests or patches" we can (and likely should) add to /code-of-conduct
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tantek the high level point is this - if a code of conduct is more about negative behaviors than positive bheaviors, then IMO it has the wrong framing, and will likely *hurt* a community in the longterm (provide discouragement/fear to new people)
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tantek and that starts with the name, hence I am opposed to naming codes of conduct things like "anti-harrasment policy"
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tantek that kind of difference in framing matters to how people view a community
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aaronpk considers adding a link to the indiewebcamp code of conduct to the CONTRIBUTING.md file in his repos
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tantek I think that's an excellent idea aaronpk
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aaronpk the nice thing about using CONTRIBUTING.md is that the text appears whenever someone opens an issue or starts a pull request
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tantek that's neat
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aaronpk oh my bad, it doesn't include the text, but there is a yellow banner that says "Please review the guidelines for contributing to this repository." and links to the file
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tantek yeah that's fine too
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gRegorLove Are there examples of anti-harassment policies/CoC hurting a community tantek?
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tantek I've seen it have a chilling effect on discussions, and unfortunately the effects are of the passive type - that is people either don't join, or leave quietly
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tantek or the kind where it just becomes more stiff / less fun, and that over time means people leave as well - since especially in the context of "free" / all-volunteer communities, the *enjoyment* people get out of it is a big factor for their presence
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tantek part of it is a question of goals also
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tantek do you want to design for fear (be mostly negative), or do you want to design for empowerment (be mostly positive) ?
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poka i want to design for 8ch/USENET grade wizard-trolls
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tantek and as I said, free/open standards/source communities are more vulnerable to the fear/negative disincentive, since there's so many other things you could be doing with your time, that don't involve such fear/negativity
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tantek poka - that's quite a challenge!
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GWG I saw something about notifications recently. Trying to find it in the log
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aaronpk well that was neat
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aaronpk I took the JSON version of my home page, and posted each item to my new micropub endpoint
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aaronpk since my micropub endpoint accepts microformats JSON now
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aaronpk my rendering isn't very good right now, but the result is plain-text versions of all the posts!
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aaronpk this is interesting, because the more I move towards this type-less storage, the more microformats2 is appealing as a storage format
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aaronpk right now i'm serializing the microformats2 object as yaml, so it's not a ton different from my current storage except all the properties are named consistently :)
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emmak aaronpk: i thought you were already using mf2 as a storage format?
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aaronpk not really
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aaronpk okay I think I have distilled my ideal UI into a consistent template for everything
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aaronpk for rendering in list views, anyway. permalink pages is after this
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aaronpk https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3764/18350318304_afc7d84d45_c.jpg
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tantek ooh /me clicks
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tantek great start aaronpk
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tantek also looks quite flexible enough to change if/when you design/build/iterate
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aaronpk yeah I think so
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aaronpk my goal is to have one path in the code that renders this HTML regardless of what the content is
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aaronpk so that I can get more and more specific depending on what the post is
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tantek I think I'm PESOSing (manually) more from Instagram because their UI is so convenient.
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tantek my latest IG post is almost a blog post
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aaronpk photos?
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aaronpk oh interesting
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tantek It's a behavior that I fell into in the 2005-2010 era with Flickr
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tantek posting a photo and writing a lot
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tantek but despite the inconvenient text entry UI of an iPod touch - it feels compelling
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aaronpk oh, so for example my flight posts will have a bit more structured data in the text area, but that's achieved by nesting these templates
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poka what's convenient about waiting for a 110MB binary to compile and launch on your cheapo MIPS HW , then load like 2 MB of JS and miscellanous faceborg spyware? much easier to curl a damn .txt file and associated image and display it with xv
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aaronpk this is crazy... I had no idea duckduckgo let people write integrations for it https://duck.co/duckduckhack/ddh-intro
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aaronpk you can write code that actually runs on the duckduckgo servers when people search
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poka Instagram has sent a hearty "fuck you" to the HTMLweb http://mw.logbook.am/IG.png
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poka basically chromium isnt compiling here because it keeps hitting the 2gb limit due to their crazy C++, gentoo actually blacklisted it
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tantek aaronpk: and the indie post on my site: http://tantek.com/2015/170/t1/yxyy003-unbagging-reflecting
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aaronpk nice!
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tantek poka - certainly let me know if you have any trouble seeing/reading that post on my site
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aaronpk why do you have the instagram URL so high up?
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aaronpk and shouldn't it be a u-syndication?
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tantek aaronpk: I've been pairing the URL with the image to link to per my markdown improvements despite the fact that I haven't written the code to combine them yet
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tantek I already made edits to the text on my own site
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tantek so I don't really consider the IG one a syndication
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aaronpk interesting
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tantek also I wanted to put the image at the very top because I like that presentation
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aaronpk heh ironically i am in the process of switching mine to have the photo below the caption
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aaronpk but i agree for long text like that it's better at the top
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tantek I really like that aspect of Instagram presentation
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tantek it also follows proper information hierarchy - show the most important thing first - the photo
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tantek and visually it looks nice to have a nice clean sharp horizontal edge with the top of the photo at the top of the post
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tantek realizes he should allow both URL URL.jpg and URL.jpg URL as image linking methods, thereby solving the problem of which to put first
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aaronpk kind of... that only works if you always have a file extension in the image URL
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tantek and if they're both non image URLs they don't link each other
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tantek and if they're both image URLs they also don't link each other
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tantek aaronpk - remember what I just said about common case in #microformats?
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aaronpk as long as you have a way to force it, sure
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tantek the way to force it is to serve the image from your own server with the proper file extension
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aaronpk wow my markup got really messy
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aaronpk this is going to clean it up nicely
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aaronpk turns out i was handling p-location like 4 different ways
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acegiak GWG: you around?
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GWG Yes
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GWG Why?
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GWG ?
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acegiak Do I need to populate extra meta fields for semantic linkbacks other than just semantic_linkbacks_avatar and semantic_linkbacks_canonical?
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acegiak cause at the moment my salmentions posts are just displaying as Ashton McAllan mentioned this Article on acegiak.net
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acegiak etc
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GWG You forgot type
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acegiak ohhh
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acegiak how is that determined?
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GWG semantic_linkbacks_type
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GWG It's set by the plugin.
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GWG However, if you want it to be a reply...the plugin changes the comment type to ""
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acegiak oh ok that's fixed it. neat
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GWG How is it going?
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@novatrend_ch indie war gestern — oder umgekehrt http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ #indieweb /@diplix ^hg (twitter.com/_/status/612155556791500800)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm i suppose i do have recent videos link, though i don't share it.. i don't really post videos other than to test its functionality. at least not yet. https://ben.thatmustbe.me/video
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ben_thatmustbeme still seeing double tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme thats better
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ben_thatmustbeme was my client
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Zegnat Happy solstice all
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amz3 héllo :)
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ben_thatmustbeme hello all
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Zegnat Is anyone running the new preview version of Safari yet? I wonder if you can import an extension without needing a cert, which would solve /Safari_Extensions#Controversy
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GWG !tell acegiak Is your custom header hand-coded or does it pull from your user profile?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme hey GWG
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GWG Hi, ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme whats up?
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GWG Doing some theming
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GWG You?
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ben_thatmustbeme working on indieID
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ben_thatmustbeme i realized I have to update all my API keys now
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ben_thatmustbeme wow, instagram API access is messed up
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ben_thatmustbeme getting "We couldn't process your request" any time i try to edit or register applications
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ben_thatmustbeme much success!
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GWG I'm playing with modals again
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ben_thatmustbeme huh?
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG: explanation?
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GWG I have wanted to design a theme around this project for a while
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GWG https://drublic.github.io/css-modal/#examples
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GWG I just spent some time fixing a lot of markup, but I haven't deployed it to my site yet. Thought I'd make a new design as part of it
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GWG I'll probably come up with a few designs to try to see what I like.
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dym_cx the "comics" as a post-type https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#comics -- putting normal things into <object /> is kinda overkill. i suggest using <figure> with <figcaption> as [per regular](http://html5doctor.com/the-figure-figcaption-elements/)
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Zegnat dym_cx: personally I think figure/figcaption is a bad fallback for long descriptions from a semantics point of view. The caption of a 3-frames strip is probably not a full transcript and description text.
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp! only 3 weeks til IndieWebCamp 2015! Signup and book your flights/hotels: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015
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ben_thatmustbeme getting so pissed off at facebook app setup
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ben_thatmustbeme just trying to get an app icon
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GWG tantek: Good morning
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tantek good morning GWG!
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ben_thatmustbeme "You can upload a JPG, GIF, or PNG file. The size of the image must be 1024 x 1024 pixels. File size limit 5 MB."
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ben_thatmustbeme i try a 1024 PNG, "The image you are trying to upload is invalid. It may be corrupt, of wrong file format or the wrong size."
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ben_thatmustbeme i try a JPG, "We detected a white background in your image. Icons look best on our site when the background is transparent. Please use a transparent background and try again."
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ben_thatmustbeme i try a PNG or GIF with transparent background...
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ben_thatmustbeme "The image you are trying to upload is invalid. It may be corrupt, of wrong file format or the wrong size."
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ben_thatmustbeme WTF
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: feel free to capture in /Facebook#Issues (or Criticism for things you think are likely unfixable)
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KevinMarks morning indieweb
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KevinMarks got a gillmor gang coming up
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GWG Oh?
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/TinaGillmor/status/612292700960718848
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@TinaGillmor GillmorGang LIVE today 10amPT/1pmET http://www.ustream.tv/gillmorgang chatroom https://chat.center/gillmorgang @stevegillmor @Scobleizer @Fradice @kevinmarks (twitter.com/_/status/612292700960718848)
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KevinMarks what happened this week to talk about?
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GWG KevinMarks: Any particular topic?
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GWG I've been contemplating the news, which is off topic a bit for here
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aaronpk good morning indiewebcamp!
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GWG Good morning, aaronpk
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aaronpk so an interesting thing happened
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GWG Yes?
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aaronpk this code right now only knows about very basic h-entry vocab, (content, published, location, photo), https://farm1.staticflickr.com/442/18805997799_b8603064b4_b.jpg
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aaronpk but the posts look surprisingly good considering how different they are
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aaronpk so now i'm wondering why even bother making up new vocab for things
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aaronpk i think the only reason to add additional properties would be so that I can make the presentation of these better
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GWG Isn't that always the reason?
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KevinMarks presumably name as well aaronpk
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aaronpk KevinMarks: i don't have "name" handling yet, but I will soon
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GWG !tell bear I seem to have named my new theme after you.
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aaronpk here are some more posts, including likes and a bookmark with quote https://farm1.staticflickr.com/479/18371714893_6df4c8dd49_o.png
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks what does your template take as source? parsed mf2 json?
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aaronpk yeah, (actually stored as yaml but same idea)
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KevinMarks hm, could you pipe unmung's feeds into it?
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aaronpk probably
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aaronpk i'm hoping i can use this same code in Monocle later, so that I only have one template to maintain that can render posts from anywhere
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KevinMarks neat
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KevinMarks what are the templates in? PHP?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "templates in" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=templates+in&summary=prompted+by+KevinMarks+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-20%2Fline%2F1434822731748
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aaronpk yeah, actually in Blade http://laravel.com/docs/5.1/blade
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aaronpk along with a helper class that does some ofthe mf2 processing
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KevinMarks tantek and I were hadnwaving about mf2 markup as templates a while back but got stuck on how to do repeated elements
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aaronpk yeah i don't have a good answer for that, i'm just assuming a single value per property right now
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KevinMarks this reminds me of trying to use polymer the other day https://medium.com/@boopathi/it-s-the-future-7a4207e028c2
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KevinMarks I had a one page html file and after I installed all the stuff they suggest it was 33000+ files
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aaronpk yeah i'm gonna keep using jquery until all this stuff shakes out :P
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KevinMarks and then I read Lea's post http://lea.verou.me/2015/04/jquery-considered-harmful/
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KevinMarks I rashly tried to use the GitHub mac app to revert the 33000 files from the project and it locked up my mac and used up all disk space as swap, so I had to hard reboot
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aaronpk i tend to ignore articles with that title because "when you title your own article that, you're just pompously referring to yourself in the third person."
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aaronpk https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9745610
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KevinMarks she was consciously being tongue in check about it
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KevinMarks s/check/cheek/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: she was consciously being tongue in cheek about it
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gRegorLove Tweaking my site a bit. Can someone on Mac screenshot http://gregorlove.com/staging/home/ please? Want to make sure the main navigation links show up with the Nevis Bold font and align nicely.
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aaronpk gRegorLove: chrome on osx http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/gregor-20150620-120557.png
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gRegorLove Thanks!
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gRegorLove Woo, glad it's looking right.
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GWG Looking at everyone's sites
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GWG I need more less
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GWG If that is a thing
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KevinMarks_ Sidebars made more sense when most screens were wide rather than tall
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GWG KevinMarks_: People still use them though
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GWG I am doing something that I usually don't do, building a theme on my live site
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KevinMarks_ Allthetwits is edging close to the day I joined twitter
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aaronpk hm, here is a challenge of using microformats2 as my storage
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aaronpk there is no existing vocab/object/whatever for representing my bike rides/runs/etc
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aaronpk so what should I do? add random properties to h-entry? make up a new object h-route?
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aaronpk right now i'm leaning towards a new property on the h-entry, "route", which itself is an h-route object that contains all the properties I have
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csarven very vaguely recalls waypoints discussions in mf
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aaronpk oh yeah i'm not including the actual locations in this right now, just meta info like total trip distance, avg speed, etc
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aaronpk here is a draft in my mf2 yaml format http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/h-route-example-20150620-125527.png
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csarven aaronpk http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-waypoint-examples
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csarven Hmm, see also mf units -- again, vaguely recall.
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csarven http://microformats.org/wiki/measure
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aaronpk i'm storing the actual route data as geojson so that it's easier to use with map tools
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aaronpk oh yeah i remember the measure stuff
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aaronpk hm i don't think any of that has been ported to mf2 yet
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csarven There are a lot of drafty stuff in the wiki
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csarven draft not in the sense of a "mf draft"
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rhiaro thinks now is a good time to add runkeeper PESOS
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aaronpk it looks like the measure stuff translates nicely to mf2
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aaronpk <div class="h-measure"><span class="p-unit">meter</span><span class="p-num">2400</span></div>
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aaronpk better: <div class="h-measure"><span class="p-num">2400</span> <span class="p-unit">meter</span>s</div>
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aaronpk {"type":["h-measure"],"properties":{"num":["2400"],"unit":["meter"],"name":["2400 meters"]}}
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rhiaro aaronpk: do you have that gist of runkeepr code handy?
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aaronpk rhiaro: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/40d6bb333447ff4265a4
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rhiaro thanks!
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aaronpk haha is heart rate ever measure in hertz?
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Loqi rofl
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aaronpk because "beat" is not an SI unit of measurement, so beats per minute isn't on this list http://microformats.org/wiki/measure#SI_Units
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aaronpk i'm gonna use "bpm" as the unit anyway
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csarven I recall using currencies. No idea as to where that was however.
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aaronpk there's a section on the measure page about currencies
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csarven Used recipes even.
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KartikPrabhu what is micropub?
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Loqi Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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@ken_bauer My main issues are migrating, multiple RSS for categories, comments and webmentions/pingback @idarknight @jekyllrb @thegrid (twitter.com/_/status/612356632878559232)
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KevinMarks wow, google docs makes some seriously messed up HTML these days
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rhiaro What's a good number of pages for a homepage?
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rhiaro posts
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rhiaro s/pages/posts
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rhiaro One month's worth is still too much I think.. for this month at least. Maybe I should post less.
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rhiaro goes to look at other people's sites
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KartikPrabhu depends on how long each post is. I use 5 articles and 0 notes
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KartikPrabhu ref: https://kartikprabhu.com/
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rhiaro Most of my posts are notes
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rhiaro It's been a busy month
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: noticed that the top menu on your homepage disappears on small viewports. https://css-tricks.com/useful-flexbox-technique-alignment-shifting-wrapping/ this might be a better way?
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@hnzio Ping! https://hnz.io/2015/06/20/ich-baue-gerade-um/ (Webmention-Test. Bitte ignorieren. Es gibt hier nix zu sehen) (twitter.com/_/status/612381611087253504)
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snarfed1 aaronpk this reminded me of you: https://twitter.com/bradfitz/status/612342455401197568
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@bradfitz Travel plan: SFO-SEA,👶🌲🍻,SEA-SFO-(now)-FRA-KRK,☕http://t.co/7zwq5yV38K, 2d rest, KRK-WAW 🚆, WAW-FRA-SFO-SEA, 🍻🍻,🚆SEA-PDX,🚗beach 🎆🎉,PDX-SFO. (twitter.com/_/status/612342455401197568)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I was thinking of writing an article pointing out some common UI things that confuse me. May I use examples from your site, since it has all 3 things I want to address in one place? :)
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aaronpk haha uhoh
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aaronpk Sure
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aaronpk However your screenshots will soon be out of date, fair warning :-)
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KartikPrabhu :) your site only as example of something that is common over the Web so not criticising you particularly
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KartikPrabhu I was going to target tantek but his site does not have comments yet ;)
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tantek sorry - manual comments only
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tantek looks for documentation
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I'll teimestamp my article/screenshots :)
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tantek KevinMarks: re what happened this week - Indie threaded conversations like Reddit - but across our own websites
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tantek !tell KevinMarks what the what - what's 33000+ files after installing?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek aaronpk: re: challenge of using mf2 as storage, you can always make up your own h-p3k-* objects and p-p3k-* properties just to get started. Good idea to try to re-use from older microformats work, yet you should requestion all of that, because if it was left behind as such, it means there must have been problems or lack of interest (or both).
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tantek what is runkeeper?
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csarven A third-party service you shouldn't be on.
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rhiaro lol
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tantek where is Loqi?
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rhiaro oh freenode was freaking out earlier, maybe Loqi didn't make it back
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tantek rhiaro: re: # of posts for a home page - good question - probably depends on how minimal you can make your markup
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tantek and then how fast your backend can generate the posts
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csarven I dont want to do plain LDP stuff either.
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csarven Wrong channel :)
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Loqi RunKeeper is an exercise silo and native app for keeping track of running, biking and other physical activity https://indiewebcamp.com/runkeeper
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rhiaro tantek: the impact of my homepage containing *everything* started to become apparent earlier this month, earlier it hasn't been a serious problem, so one month of posts should be okay
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rhiaro it just feels like a lot
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tantek "a lot" in what dimension?
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rhiaro ..maybe I just post too much crap at the moment
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csarven Why not pagination?
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rhiaro That's what I'm doing at the moment
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rhiaro Just deciding at which point to paginate
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tantek csarven, depends on the pagination
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csarven Approximate page weight you are willing to go for.
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csarven page weight + number of requests
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csarven Whatever the "sweet spot" is for your consumers.
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rhiaro I don't know who is reading my site
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rhiaro Most me, I imagine
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rhiaro s/Most/Mostly
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Loqi rhiaro meant to say: Mostly me, I imagine
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tantek nah - I'd say just optimize for low latency first
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csarven IMO, under 1MB is an okay mark.
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tantek wonders how big his homepage is
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csarven That's what he said.
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csarven I agree on the latency.
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tantek rhiaro: low latency = more and returning readers.
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rhiaro tantek: I wondered about your cutoff on the homepage, it's a random date in April. Is it a post count?
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tantek It is a post count
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rhiaro I couldn't see links for prev/next, are they somewhere?
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tantek It was something like 20 or so for a while
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csarven rhiaro Don't forget that, whatever you go with, you can also enhance it dynamically but making auto-loading on scroll or whatever.
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rhiaro I'm leaning towards paging by month mosty because I already have the code for that
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tantek then after I implemented likes and started liking many things (which compressed per my /like#Brainstorming design ) I realized I could add more. Many more
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tantek rhiaro: so I kept cranking the # of posts up until it felt like the load time was still "reasonable" on a slow DSL connection, and the # of posts hit some reasonable limit.
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tantek ended up with 127
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rhiaro Okay I'm going to push by month because I need to do something urgently (currently my homepage crashes chrome..)
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tantek rhiaro: prev/next links are only on my permalinks for now
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csarven On my site, I have link to an index page of all articles. IIRC, it only contains the title and summary of the articles. I don't have "many" posts, so this is fine for discovery.
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