#indiewebcamp 2015-06-26

2015-06-26 UTC
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ben_thatmustbeme Hmm need to rework relmeauth to make sure it doesn't rely on session
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ben_thatmustbeme So question. What's the best way to get site A to have a token to access site B if site B already had a token for site A
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GWG A restaurant offered their back room for a HWC.
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tantek.com edited /2014-review (+381) "/* Technologies */ h-feed adoption by indieweb community" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014-review (+181) "/* Community Resources */ payment" (view diff)
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Kongaloosh_ is there a list of indieweb blogs somewhere?
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KartikPrabhu Kongaloosh: not really but you can find them from https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people by looking at people's profiles
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Kongaloosh close enough!
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Kongaloosh thanks
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tantek GWG that's great!
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: tantek: should we have a list of indieweb sites?
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tantek are you able to use it for 07-01 or others next month?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: difficult to say, because then you have to specify much more specifically what's an indieweb site?
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KartikPrabhu yeah i was thinking the same. But it has been asked for a bunch of time here
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tantek and I think the irc-people answer is fine
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KartikPrabhu cool!
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acegiak Morning, all
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG cool
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bear GWG - I have sent a couple emails to some mozilla nyc folks - no reply yet
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Loqi bear: GWG left you a message 5 days, 7 hours ago: I seem to have named my new theme after you. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-20/line/1434822061475
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bear grins
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GWG bear: I'd drop everything in a minute.
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GWG bear: I call it... bearbones.
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bear that is amazesauce
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GWG bear: Keep me posted on July. It is almost here. I think I may have to be a remote participant.
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bear with mozilla doing their mozwww thing I was going to wait till monday to poke folks
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bear and also ask tantek for an assist/introduction to cut down the lag
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GWG Has anyone heard from zachdonovan? I want to try the next HWC
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GWG If he's willing to try the back of a deli.
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tantek the lag?
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bear I sent an email almost two weeks ago
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bear then I discovered that this week is mozwww so figured maybe the lag in response was due to that
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bear but then I got seriously busy and only got around to following up today
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GWG bear: What features do you want for your website?
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bear I really need to finish getting the feed view working, finish wiring up the flask app that enables things so it can handle more than basic webmentions - I also need to catchup on the other python work that has been done
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bear but basically I need to post more
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GWG Ditto
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GWG I'm trying to do that by doing a vacation log.
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KartikPrabhu bear: since you are around, what do you think of separating the indieauth part of ninka from the micropub part?
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bear I think that would be a great idea - they really need to be handled differently don't they
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KartikPrabhu yeah. also smaller code for small different things
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bear yea
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KartikPrabhu also I found a name for your micropub code: http://japanese.about.com/blverb4.htm
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KartikPrabhu ;)
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bear oh - I love it
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bear kaku
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bear I will create a repo now and add you to it
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KartikPrabhu has found suggesting a new name is the best way to get people to make new repo ;)
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bear very
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bear the urge to split the lib up will force me to revisit my implementation
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KartikPrabhu :) I have some stuff I want to use indieauth for that I hope to do before IWC in 2 weeks. we'll see how far I get
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kylewm kaku is cool, reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku
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KartikPrabhu ugh boy! that guy
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kylewm you are a huge fan?
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KartikPrabhu no I am a big anti-fan
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bear I'm sure KartikPrabhu has more reasons to not like him than the rest of us
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kylewm having expertise in a field makes it kinda impossible to listen to people who try to 'dumb it down' for lay audiences
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kylewm but maybe there is more to it than that, i am not particularly familiar with him
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KartikPrabhu ehh he's not even "dumbing it down" he mostly says lots of stuff without any science behind them
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KartikPrabhu i'll stick with kaku=to write as my inspiration :)
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ben_thatmustbeme I like it. Are you going to have yomu to go with it
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KartikPrabhu i don't know if bear wants to write a reader
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bear my aim is to have a lib for all parts of indieweb
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bear so if yomu = reader ...
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KartikPrabhu yomu = to read
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bear placeholder added
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KartikPrabhu hahA! neat
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bear this is exactly the kind of polite poke I needed to get back to tending to my personal coding projects
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KartikPrabhu oh no! I poked a bear ;)
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bear yea, but this is a friendly bear
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KartikPrabhu good. I don't have to lie down and pretend to be dead
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bear :)
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bear well, i'm also easily distracted by beer
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@mattl @timmmmyboy @JaidenEverett eventually all the indieweb will be one big Bootstrap site. Can't wait. (twitter.com/_/status/614262606438760453)
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KartikPrabhu oh judas priest ^
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bear where do they even get this [bad] info?
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KartikPrabhu reading the whole thread it might be sarcasm on the part of @mattl
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bear oh - it's a thread from... yea that
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mattl I actually like Bootstrap
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KartikPrabhu but really no one wants all of indieweb to become on huge framework
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mattl It would make it easy to style.
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KartikPrabhu wants to say "use CSS"
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mattl A lot of people know more jquery than raw js. Same with Bootstrap sooner or later.
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KartikPrabhu mattl: "make it easy to style" it being? Known or all of indieweb ?
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KartikPrabhu shakes head
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bear wanders off to distract himself with a beer
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mattl The whole thing.
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KartikPrabhu well at least you'll have one indieweb site (mine) that does not use jquery or bootstrap
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KartikPrabhu mattl: there is no whole thing
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KartikPrabhu indieweb is a bunch of different individual sites
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mattl I know ;)
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KartikPrabhu hmm then do you wish for everyone to use Bootstrap?
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giudici.us edited /2015/Guest_List (+224) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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bret TIL about https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/HTML/Content_Editable
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bret (yesterday actually)
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KartikPrabhu bret: yes! I have a plan to use that to make an inline-notes-editor for my site :)
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bret it has some pretty wacky inconsistencies and behaviors, but still pretty cool
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KartikPrabhu bret: of course one has to be very careful with JS. progressive enhancement is your friend
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bret heard some wikipedains talk about adding language support to it... left to right, and predictive character input support (eg for chinese)
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KartikPrabhu that would be good
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bret sounded like a nightmare, but their visual editor is available for external use
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KartikPrabhu hmm I am not too sure about using any wikipedia UI.
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bret yeah its a bit more than I want
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KartikPrabhu for notes a simple text editor should work with micropub. Articles is different and more complex
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bret it does some funny things like, if you press enter in a hyperlink block, creates a new paragraph and retains the link coloring but loses the link
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KartikPrabhu urgh yeah I think I'll avoid it :P
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shaunguice TIL about auto sizing columns http://flexboxgrid.com/
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bret flexbox is great
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KartikPrabhu flexbox is complicated
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KartikPrabhu I am waiting for CSS grids to do grids properly
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bret yeah its a bit weird, but better than clearfix
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KartikPrabhu bret: I am more confused all the funny terminology/jargon in flexbox
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bret im looking for a good video that cleared that up
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KartikPrabhu flex-start/flex-end flex-between a lot of new jargon making CSS complicated
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bret ahh here http://www.sketchingwithcss.com/flexbox/ KartikPrabhu
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bret its true, its wacky, im mostly happy with the results though
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KartikPrabhu bret: that is my problem. none of the jargon in flexbox is intuitive
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KartikPrabhu I can't write flexbox CSS without looking up some big tutorial on what the words mean
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KartikPrabhu I understand p{margin-right: 10em} well enough though :P
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bret yeah i have to stare at https://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/a-guide-to-flexbox/ every time i use it
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bret the biggest hurdle was flex-direction
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bret and understanding how they stack
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KartikPrabhu yeah. hopefully CSS grids is more useful to make grids (i currently use a float-based grid from https://gridsetapp.com/ ). Felxbox could be more useful for styling individual components instead of the global grid
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KartikPrabhu bret: do you have examples from your site where flexbox has been useful?
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@akalsey @andyaxton Great idea. Wish content wasn't in a system owned and locked up by a 3rd party corporation. How about IRC? #indieweb /@roughani (twitter.com/_/status/614309430327283712)
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KevinMarks “ it is much easier to judge whether a prototype does what you want than it is to read a long specification”
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KevinMarks http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s06.html
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KartikPrabhu "Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new features." from the above citation. Yes please!
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@haverholm @richard_littler I'd say #IndieWeb http://indiewebcamp.com Host your own, syndicate to platforms (twitter.com/_/status/614338530605670401)
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KevinMarks Esr can be annoying, but that piece has a lot of indieweb principles embedded in it
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@indiemusicdeal #Oppurtunity #IndieWeb #Magazine is accepting #Talented #Artists of all genres to feature.Submit yr #Song https://www.musicclout.com/contents/opportunity-4826-indie-web-magazine-is-accepting-talented-artists-of-all-genres-to-feature.aspx #IndieMusic (twitter.com/_/status/614342925590204417)
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@kevinmarks So, @cdixon if you want a modern version of the tao of Unix, try http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (twitter.com/_/status/614343354193567744)
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GWG Morning, all
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning GWG
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dym.cx edited /bookmark (+15) "/* Silos */ +Pinboard" (view diff)
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dym.cx edited /Pinboard (+276) "expanded a bit" (view diff)
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dym.cx edited /bookmark (+107) "/* Why */ bookmark as a "friend" button" (view diff)
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@dissolve333 test a few changes to relmeauth lib, #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/614463958322286593)
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Jeena oh man, the Universe loves me :D it looked like I would need to pay up to 360$ to move the flight from saturday to monday if I wanted to stay in Portland for this years IndieWebCamp but our customer asked us to stay longer so I am staying the week after too and travel the following friday instead.
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i know we talked about this before, but if I want to give access to another site whats the best way of doing that?
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ben_thatmustbeme i think we said, i just have to generate an auth code on my end, figure out some way to send that
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aaronpk Jeena: \o/
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Jeena That way I can attend the camp and do not need to pay for the rescegualing of the flight either
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Jeena wohoo!
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ben_thatmustbeme Jeena, that works
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aaronpk I love it when that happens!
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Jeena yeah :D
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Jeena and even cooler, I will be flying on a workday instead of on the weekend :p
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www.edpatonwilliams.co.uk edited /Known (-1) "/* Setup Known on nginx */" (view diff)
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: yeah if you can get an auth code to the server then it can exchange it for an access token
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@strugee2 honestly I am utterly and completely in love with the idea of the #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/614471207207878656)
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ben_thatmustbeme so actually i think its even stranger than that. I am going to have to log in via indieauth in the opposite direction, but I think that should be fine.
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm working on making a micropub 2 twitter chain
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ben_thatmustbeme and need to get the token over the the indieweb site
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ben_thatmustbeme s/the the/to the/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: and need to get the token over to the indieweb site
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek delayed response to bear - yes this week is mozwww which has delayed all sorts of email things
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aaronpk good morning!
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ben_thatmustbeme morning tantek
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snarfed1 kylewm/acegiak i have a salmentions feature request: silo support :P
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snarfed1 e.g. on https://kylewm.com/2015/06/tell-her-about-emacs
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snarfed1 (i may or may not also have a bridge to sell you :P)
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kylewm I don't think I understand
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snarfed1 maybe it's out of scope of salmentions
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snarfed1 i'd like to see the original tweet in your reply context
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snarfed1 do salmentions not include populating reply contexts with multiple hops?
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snarfed1 maybe in this case it's too much to ask since it's not in gRegorLove's reply context?
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snarfed1 maybe i'm asking for special case handling for silo u-in-reply-tos?
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snarfed1 i'll stop talking now :P
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gRegorLove I do intend to show original tweet text in my reply-contexts eventually, though it's probably a while away
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ben_thatmustbeme think i know how to get chained micropub set up
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ben_thatmustbeme i still need to bang out the code for it, but i don't think i will have too much trouble
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snarfed1 gRegorLove: do you have code that populates normal indie reply contexts right now?
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gRegorLove Also, ha. I hadn't even seen kylewm's reply yet
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gRegorLove snarfed: Kinda. I started on it but never finished it. I did experiment with a Twitter library, so I guess that's not too hard. Just need to fix it up and settle on a UI I like.
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gRegorLove Maybe at IWC
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snarfed np. just thinking if you implement indie reply contexts, you can probably get silos for free (or close) with https://twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com/ and friends
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snarfed your call!
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kylewm what are recursive reply-contexts?
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Loqi recursive reply-contexts (previously confusingly called as reply-thread and history-thread) are a list of reply-contexts displayed above a reply post, where each reply-context is there to show context along an in-reply-to chain of links from a reply post all the way up to an original post (that itself is not a reply) https://indiewebcamp.com/recursive_reply-contexts
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gRegorLove I was actually thinking the other day, I have no idea what I'll work on for IWC hack day. Plenty of options, though.
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aaronpk that's what the first day is for, to get inspired :)
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aaronpk I had no idea I was going to make the nice Quill editor in Germany until after the first day
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GWG aaronpk: Will remote participation, since NYC venue is an issue, be an option? I know we had some trouble last year
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aaronpk we can certainly try
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kylewm still a good idea to have a fallback, in case nothing grabs your fancy on the first day
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aaronpk top item on your #itches list?
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gRegorLove I will likely be working on notes. Showing comments on them, then maybe reply-contexts.
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GWG aaronpk: I'm trusting you. Start laying microphone cable all around the research center.
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aaronpk hehe
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GWG Wish I could afford to come out. But I'll do what I can from here. And the door is not closed on NYC. It is just closing.
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/
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GWG How is this new design shaping up? This is the minimalist one named after bear. I need some ideas.
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GWG kylewm: I changed p-content to e-content for you, as a temporary measure till I do something more specific.
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tantek have we discussed hovercards much here? I feel like it's come up but I can't remember when or in what context
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GWG tantek: I remember mentioning it as a design option for h-cards a long time ago.
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tantek GWG, I'm thinking of them more as a useful behavior for users hovering over a simple h-card
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aaronpk i vaguely remember that too
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tantek a minimal h-card that is - e.g. an h-card that just has an icon, name, link
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loqi.me created /Hovercars (+135) "prompted by ben_thatmustbeme and dfn added by GWG" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: But in reality it isn't a minimal h-card. It is the full h-card, just hidden
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tantek GWG, a-ha - that's a good insight
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GWG So, it does answer the minimal h-card issue.
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KartikPrabhu should that not be "hovercards" not "hovercars" ?
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GWG Many people have said they don't want their entire details displaying.
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tantek so I was hovering (like with my mouse pointer) over some of the {{ }} type templates for people that we use on the wiki, and expecting to see: a larger image, and maybe an in-line display of the person's URL and ?? IRC nickname?
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tantek and then I thought, what if our {{ }} person templates actually had all that and had some way to display hovercards?
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GWG Preferably in CSS over JS.
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tantek GWG, right! triggered by :hover - maybe with a very brief transition
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tantek obviously this would be cool behavior on indieweb sites too
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tantek just thinking it might be easier to prototype on the wiki
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tantek interactively
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be cool
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snarfed huh. in terms of best practices, hovercards are an interesting halfway point btw visible and invisible metadata
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KartikPrabhu how would hovercards work on phone/non-hover-interaction devices
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snarfed at least for e.g. your own primary h-card on your own site
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GWG It would make for a great library that can be incorporated too, for comments on a site.
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loqi.me created /answer_to_the_ultimate_question_of_life,_the_universe,_and_everything (+103) "prompted by GWG and dfn added by GWG" (view diff)
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snarfed i'd love to hear opinions from design/methodology-oriented people on whether hovercards are http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#invisible_metadata , or http://indiewebcamp.com/principles##Use%20visible%20data , or both, or neither, or…?
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GWG The data isn't invisible if you can display it with a hover, is it?
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KartikPrabhu non-hover-devices!?
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snarfed it's invisible until you manually hover over it :P
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: convention is either long press or tap or both
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KartikPrabhu that might activate the u-url in the non-hidden part so bad interaction
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snarfed yup. lots of compromises. the point is that it's a well understood problem, it's been around for a while, and there are widespread conventions for handling it
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KartikPrabhu citation?
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snarfed search google :P
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KartikPrabhu leaves it to people who want this to figure it out
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Can I ask your opinion of my design? Your Postly interface is not dissimilar. I'm trying to get ideas.
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GWG I went back to minimalism.
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GWG Either way, I'm hungry. Will be back
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ben_thatmustbeme sure, except my design came out of someone else's design, I didn't do it myself for sure
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kylewm.com created /this_week_in_indieweb (+39) "prompted by ben_thatmustbeme" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /this_week_in_the_indieweb (+39) "Redirected page to [[this-week-in-the-indieweb]]" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /answer_to_the_ultimate_question_of_life,_the_universe,_and_everything (-87) "r" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed: short answer is: current implementations show hovercards with JS (so no actual hidden data in page), and on mobile/touch - no hover cards.
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gRegorLove I'm not sure how much of a CSS hovercard can be done without additional markup. Can you 'clone' something and modify its display?
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KartikPrabhu if one wants a CSS hovercard then the additional data would have to be "hidden" in the HTML. Then on hover one can display it
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tantek gRegorLove, KartikPrabhu you're both right
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tantek and yes the trade-off is that a CSS-only hover solution would require putting hidden data on the page.
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tantek there's no obvious best answer - definitely worthy of discussion
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tantek hovercards with JS as progressive enhancement is a reasonable approach for a couple of reasons. without JS, you can still click on the minimal h-card and see a full profile with more info. and the without JS behavior turns out to be the same as the touch-UI behavior.
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tantek also, with progressive enhancement, you don't bother with prepoulating the page with all the more extensive h-cards for every single simple/minimal h-card there
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tantek so you save on page weight, especially on pages that references lots of people, especially multiple times (e.g. a home page with a stream of updates with hyperlinked names of people etc.)
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KartikPrabhu yup ^
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KartikPrabhu well there you go: https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/simple-hovercard.html simple CSS hover card starring kylewm
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tantek.com edited /Firefox (+632) "share / activations directory, social api" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox (+383) "Hello, OS" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_OS (+0) "see also Firefox" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox (+74) "move Share to its own page" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Firefox_Share (+1008) "move Share to its own page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox () "(-598) /* Share */ content moved to its own page, summarize instead" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox (+96) "/* Hello */ indieweb comms/contact" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox (+4) "/* Firefox OS */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+137) "indieweb examples" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: nice demo!
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tantek can you speed up the animation? e.g. on FB it's pretty fast
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah. I set it to 1s to see if it does anything
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tantek maybe reduce to 0.2s to see how that feels?
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KartikPrabhu yeah. tweaking some other things too. brb hungry
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+377) "why, how to with demo social provider" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ hm, would that work for indiecards?
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+639) "Brainstorming / Micropub share provider" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - I think they're orthogonal concepts
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tantek hovercards are usually rendered using whatever is already on the server, e.g. from a /nicknames_cache
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tantek that might have been populated from an /indiecard from the other person's server
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KevinMarks_ could the hovercard be an iframe that calls an indiecard service, or will a hidden iframe only fetch when made visible?
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tantek could be - wondering how responsive that would be
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tantek you could dynamically create the iframe with src to the indiecard service with JS
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tantek but yes if the iframe was merely hidden it would likely call the indiecard service on load - thus being quite wasteful
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+109) "/* Micropub share provider */ your site provides the post UI" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu here it is: https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/simple-hovercard.html now on an inline-hcard
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+1341) "expand brainstorming of how a micropub based social share provider could work" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+163) "/* Micropub share provider */ add steps for the micropub proxy" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+884) "/* Brainstorming */ Micropub Next Steps" (view diff)
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tantek !tell aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme I think I figurd out (with a lot of help from mixedpuppy / Shane Caraveo) how a micropub proxy could be built for Firefox Share - please see and review: https://indiewebcamp.com/Firefox_Share#Micropub_share_provider
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Share (+225) "link Activations Directory to the live directory" (view diff)
snarfed and tantek joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu what is like?
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Loqi like is a popular webaction button and in some cases post type on various silos such as Facebook and Instagram (uses a heart ♥) https://indiewebcamp.com/like
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KartikPrabhu what are likes?
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Loqi likes are sometimes part of the information about a post displayed on the post itself, sometimes in a post footer https://indiewebcamp.com/likes
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KevinMarks_ hm, that hovercard doesn't really hover though - it reflows any text under it
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KevinMarks_ https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/simple-hovercard.html
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ hovers for me.
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KartikPrabhu on both FF and Chrome
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KevinMarks_ put a block of text in the <p></p> after the div and you'll see that it pushes it down
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KartikPrabhu oh you need to refresh the page. I updated it
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KevinMarks_ aha
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KartikPrabhu :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: neat - even better. make the animation faster, and it's cool to overlap the simple h-card with the hovercard (e.g. FB behavior)
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tantek where are you getting all of kylewm's elsewhere links from?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: overlapping the simple one with the hovercard makes the text around it reflow!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hardcoded and copied from his footer :P
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KartikPrabhu no JS data requesting for this simple CSS demo
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tantek that makes no sense - presumably the hovercard is position:absolute ?
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KevinMarks_ fb seems to pull theirs in async
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tantek consider replacing the text with a service-icon-pile
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KartikPrabhu yes the hovercard is absolute-position. oh I see what you mean. that can be done
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KartikPrabhu tantek: errr I dislike nascar :P
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tantek lol ok
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tantek still - it's unusual for a hovercard to show so much
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KartikPrabhu yes of course. Just a proof of concept. I wouldn't use it like this
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KartikPrabhu ideally one would pull hovercard data using some async JS and only use the above demo to show/hide with pure CSS
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tantek I mean check out how simple FB hovercards are
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KartikPrabhu I grabbed a lot of stuff to put in there to see if the concept scales well
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tantek it's like a mini-profile
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KevinMarks_ well, the FB ones show a lot