#indiewebcamp 2015-07-15

2015-07-15 UTC
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GWG I think I fixed that in May, but does anyone speak French?
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kylewm GWG: it doesn't say anything specific, just that input isn't filtered before being inserted into the output HTML
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GWG That's not really helpful.
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aaronpk huh, i was writing out my thoughts on how to do private webmentions, but then realized I had already written this all out
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snarfed lol
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snarfed GWG: https://translate.google.com/
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GWG I rewrote that code after the date in question.
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GWG Either way, better recheck it
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GWG When I decided to get into Indieweb development, no one said I'd have trouble with French security researchers
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KevinMarks_ no-one expects the French Inquisition
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aaronpk wow
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aaronpk okay. who here is interested in brainstorming on private webmentions with me
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GWG aaronpk: I'm not sure what I have to contribute, but if something occurs, I'll chime in
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KevinMarks_ sure, fire away aaronpk_
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aaronpk i'm mostly interested in which of two options you would be more likely to implement
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bret im listening but I'll need a dynamic messaging server first
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aaronpk jeez this is from almost exactly two years ago
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aaronpk okay here's the situation. say you wrote a private post that I can see. I'm making a GET request to fetch the post.
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aaronpk the options are:
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aaronpk a) I send a header like 'Authorization: IndieAuth me="https://aaronparecki.com" token="1234567890"', you look at aaronparecki.com and find my token endpoint, then check my token is valid by making a GET request to my token endpoint
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aaronpk b) before-hand, I make a POST request to your token endpoint with an authorization code that I generated, you check the code against *my authorization endpoint* and if it's valid, you generate an access token. then to actually fetch the post, I make a GET request with the access token that *you* generated in the Authorization header
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aaronpk does that make sense?
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aaronpk the key difference is that in b, you generated the access token so you can verify it however you want
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aaronpk with a, I generated the access token so you ahve to ask my token endpoint whether it's valid
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bret i dont know which is better
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bret how does pump.io do it?
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aaronpk doesn't matter which is "better"
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aaronpk what matters is which would you be more likely to implement
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aaronpk my question is which of a or b would you be more likely to implement, based on ease of implementation or whatever
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bret how are you making the get request?
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bret from a browser?
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aaronpk doesn't matter
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aaronpk but more likely this is server-to-server interaction
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GWG Should I have to satisfy you...the person who wants it private?
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KevinMarks_ so the assumption is that I have an ACL that has 'https://aaronparecki.com' in
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aaronpk GWG: you wanted it private
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: yes
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GWG Then you should have to satisfy me.
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aaronpk i agree :)
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aaronpk which is why i am asking
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KevinMarks_ so the implementation difference is whether I have to do work to create a token for you and keep it with that
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: i guess that's one way of putting it
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KevinMarks_ or if I trust your token service
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bret do self encoded tokens change that at all?
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aaronpk bret: self-encoded tokens are certainly one way of implementing tokens, but should not be a requirement
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KevinMarks_ I think a) is easier, as I don't have to store access tokens for you
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snarfed1 +1 for a)
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KevinMarks_ though I do have to do the check synchronously?
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aaronpk ooh yes you would, because you'd need to return the content in that response
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: interesting point about trust, if you're writing something that you want only me to see, you have to trust that my token endpoint will respect that. is that a reasonable expectation?
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk, snarfed: I saw some chat about hfeed2atom as a proxy service. Right now it is only a lib (and an incomplete one ). Is a proxy service something of interest?
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aaronpk (KartikPrabhu: I won't have an atom feed until there is a proxy service that I like, so yes. but i'm gonna keep focusing on this webmention conversation for now)
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aaronpk okay so i'm hearing some amount of preference for not wanting to have to generate/store access tokens
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: ok cool
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snarfed1 aaronpk: KevinMarks: the auth token would be for the auth server specified in the page's rel=token_endpoint, right? so not necessarily indieauth?
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snarfed1 so then servers that are latency sensitive can be their own auth/token server, or use one nearby
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snarfed1 goddamn 1
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Loqi hehe
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KevinMarks_ no it's the viewer's token endpoint snarfed
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aaronpk snarfed: indieauth.com is not in this picture unless someone explicitly links to it
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KevinMarks_ not the publisher's
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snarfed ohh right since the viewer is asserting who they are
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snarfed nm
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aaronpk but yeah it's the other person's auth server
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aaronpk so you can't guarantee the responsiveness of it, or even if it still exists
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KevinMarks_ so the advantages of b) is that the publisher just has to check it's own token, which it can have done async
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aaronpk with b, the publisher generated the token so it has an instant way to verify it. either a DB lookup or verifying the self-encoded token.
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ben_thatmustbeme tries to catch up on the conversation
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KevinMarks_ so that's the tradeoff - do I want to store things for you, or do I want to make 2 roundtrips to your servers to respond to your GET
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KevinMarks_ you have to have a long enough timeout to cope with that
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aaronpk i think there's just one round-trip? but yes
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KevinMarks_ once to get your endpoint, once to verify the toekn
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aaronpk hm, requiring a sync HTTP request in order to respond to an HTTP request seems sketchy
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: oh right thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if his work on micropub-chaining make link in here (link /chain pun, heh)
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aaronpk okay i am leaning towards b now
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Is your Micropub code up?
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aaronpk also KevinMarks_ there is a way to issue access tokens where you don't need to store anything
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, not working, i got an error on last try and haven't had time to fix the bug
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aaronpk also these tokens only need to be valid for like 30 seconds tops so that makes it particularly easy
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Up as in viewable by me.
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ben_thatmustbeme github.com/dissolve/mptweet
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ben_thatmustbeme and github.com/dissolve/openblog
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ben_thatmustbeme obviously requires support on both sides
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ben_thatmustbeme really disorganized at the moment
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aaronparecki.com moved /indieweb-messaging to /private-webmention
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ben_thatmustbeme idea is that site A needs to get a token that service X
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I'm looking at the WordPress Micropub code and looking for inspiration
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ben_thatmustbeme user logs in to service X (and does some other auth to make sure they have access to syndication target, i.e. twitter oauth)
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ben_thatmustbeme then service X uses indieauth to get a token for site A (the reverse of what is needed) but with a scope to add syndication endpoints
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: any thoughts on this private webmention thing?
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ben_thatmustbeme once is has a token it sends and auth code to site A's mp endpoint telling it to register this new chaining target
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ben_thatmustbeme and finally, and this is where it ties in to the current discussion aaronpk, the site then just has to validate that code on service X
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: that sounds like option a that I outlined?
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ben_thatmustbeme so basically my model is, send a code, and then it has to be validated back with the sender's endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: yes
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ben_thatmustbeme and sorry, brain not working so well, but i have to try to stay up to keep my sleep schedule from getting too messed up
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ben_thatmustbeme which is probably a bad time to work on the thatmustbe.us service
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ben_thatmustbeme which is another question... i'm hitting some interesting problems with parsing people's h-cards
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ben_thatmustbeme like for example the lack of a single u-url on many of them
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aaronpk isn't the url of a homepage h-card the url that you got the h-card from?
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ben_thatmustbeme unless someone doesn't have the full card on their homepage
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ben_thatmustbeme bug i'm going to have to do that
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sparverius general channel question: how do you handle building assets from static site generators?
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ben_thatmustbeme s/bug/but
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: but i'm going to have to do that
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sparverius right now im pointing an nginx directive at a "built" directory, and build assets are in there, with jeykll assets in a directory in git root
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sparverius im using a pretty standard vps provider but eventually id like to include jeykll version management as part of the build process
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sparverius the standard vps provider being important because im hesitant to fire up a salt/vagrant vm to run nginx
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sparverius im overthinking this, but it's because it's a thing that interests me
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ben_thatmustbeme working on things that interest you ++
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sparverius oh yeah, ive migrated to doing builds on the vps as part of a cron job.
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sparverius previously i did the builds on my local machine, which i might go back to, since it reduces complexity of the server, which i would like to not have to think about
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kylewm sparverius: you could trigger the build from a git post-commit hook instead of on a cron
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kylewm (or you could have TravisCI build it...which I have done before)
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sparverius ah, what i meant is right now at midnight, git pulls, runs the build
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sparverius it's a hacked out bash in the crontab
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kylewm git hook would let you re-build as soon as you push changes, why wouldn't that be preferable?
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sparverius oh, yeah, im sorry, i misread what you said
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, what would be more useful? thatmustbe.us/ben should return h-cards of all bens, but should it be regex to match *ben* or ben with lastname too or ben in url
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sparverius yeah, i'll add githooks to the list of things to implement
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: I think libreral search is better, since firstname+lastname is not always guaranteed
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sparverius right now im focusing on keeping the software up to date, to ensure my dev and remote machine are on relatively similar versions
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, okay, now i just need to work out a storage system
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ben_thatmustbeme going to try going without a database
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm hopping the fence for this one
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ben_thatmustbeme well storage and fast lookup without a DB
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kylewm aaronpk: still trying to parse, your idea (b) above is "the auth servers do a dance so that MY auth server gives you a token that identifies you as you to me"?
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aaronpk yes
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kylewm that is pretty clever
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aaronpk it's actually a lot like "logging in" to someone's site
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kylewm I think that's what pump.io does, sorta
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kylewm you log into the remote server using your email address at the original server
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aaronpk i couldn't figure out what pump.io does, it just says "use oauth 1 or JWS"
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kylewm oh, yeah i just mean, as a user
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aaronpk okay then yeah i guess so
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kylewm the pump.io spec is pretty sparse and/or useless
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kylewm (which is not to denigrate pump.io)
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aaronpk making useful specs is actually pretty hard
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aaronpk it's always a tough balance between making things too specific vs making things not specific enough
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aaronpk is digging deep into the private webmention page
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@NZN Summer Tech Fun #youngmakers + $OYO skills #Tesla #pi #javascript #indieweb with @oyoclass @sbucompsc @TeslaMakerLab https://twitter.com/NZN/status/621147514473959424/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/621147514473959424)
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@kid_OYO RT @NZN: Summer Tech Fun #youngmakers + $OYO skills #Tesla #pi #javascript #indieweb with @oyoclass @sbucompsc @TeslaMakerLab http://t.co/o… (twitter.com/_/status/621148411023237120)
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@nodenow Summer Tech Fun #youngmakers + $OYO skills #Tesla #pi #javascript #indieweb with oyoclass sbucompsc TeslaMakerLab https://twitter.com/NZN/status/621147514473959424/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/621149500212662274)
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aaronparecki.com edited /private-webmention () "(-3864) update with latest on private webmention thoughts" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /Category:IndieAuth (+23) "/* Services and Source Code */" (view diff)
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aaronpk thx cweiske
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cweiske.de edited /indieauth-openid (+251) (view diff)
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/106407686370243#10204679122316561 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/106407686370243#10205411099895441 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club
wolftune, snarfed, tantek, squeakytoy, Deledrius, KartikPrabhu, cweiske, LauraJ, KevinMarks, KevinMarks__, Jihaisse, eschnou, loic_m, sanduhrs, jciv and csarven joined the channel
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@FEEZig “The Web We Have to Save” @h0d3r https://medium.com/matter/the-web-we-have-to-save-2eb1fe15a426 #indieweb #technology #attention (twitter.com/_/status/621228138484338689)
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@NoizIvy RT @NZN: Summer Tech Fun #youngmakers + $OYO skills #Tesla #pi #javascript #indieweb with @oyoclass @sbucompsc @TeslaMakerLab http://t.co/o… (twitter.com/_/status/621275797731545088)
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cygnoir.net edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+252) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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csarven Proposal to simplify Webmention: The Webmention endpoint receives a POST with the source URL, where its response contains the target URL (implying that this is the reference which needs to be confirmed). The endpoint can decide to whatever it wants with the rest of the contents at the source URL.
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cweiske so the endpoint first has to parse the source URL to reply?
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cygnoir.net created /User:Cygnoir.net (+177) "Created page with "__NOTITLE__ = cygnoir = Halsted M. Bernard == Background == I've been writing on the Web since 1999, but always with someone else's tools. This year I'd like to change that."" (view diff)
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cweiske what if there are multiple target URLs on the source URL?
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rhiaro They all get a webmention? Since they're all mentioned
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cweiske they all would have to be returned
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rhiaro You have to parse the source to confirm the target is really there anyway
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cweiske in csarven's proposal
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csarven cweiske Yes, first parse to confirm. Good question about multiple target URLs, is that a common practice? If the target's domain matches the Webmention's endpoint (or whatever it finds appropriate), I suppose the endpoint will take those in.
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cweiske csarven, waiting for parsing means that means that my tools have to wait for each endoint to parse my site
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cweiske imagine a blog post with 20 links
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cweiske I ping all 20 endpoints
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cweiske and have to wait for all of them to parse
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cweiske they cannot defer parsing to later
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cweiske because they are required to return the urls
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voxpelli to have all URL:s of a HTML page be counted as WebMentions would make internal WebMentions explode :P
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csarven I didn't say "all URLs"
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voxpelli well, webmentions only say that a source page has linked to a target page, how would it know what URL:s to pick if it wouldn't pick all?
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csarven http://example.org/#foo in-reply-to http://example.com/bar#bbq
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voxpelli that would couple the h-entry and webmentions standards – right now they are completely independent of each other
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csarven cweiske is on track. I think the interesting bit to consider is whether there are multiple "in reply to"s or what have you, and make a decision.
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csarven voxpelli Right. But, I didn't suggest h-entry or mf2 or necessarily even "u-in-reply-to"
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rhiaro Wms are not limited to replies
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rhiaro Just links
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csarven Sure, whatever property.
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csarven x has relation to y
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voxpelli csarven: might have misunderstood you then, how did you suggest that one would distinguish between "mentioned" URL:s and other URL:s on a page if one doesn't mention it in the ping?
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voxpelli just as an endpoint today has to do a lookup of the source URL, the source has to do a lookup of the target URL – so the source will also have to know about all target URL:s anyway
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csarven If "mention" is the most appropriate term/relation to make between the source and target, that's fine. The endpoint will look for u-mention (if it is interested in mf2). It still leaves it open as to what it can look for.
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cweiske voxpelli, but today endpoints can delay parsing
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csarven voxpelli I suppose the target's endpoint can poke source's endpoint?
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voxpelli cweiske: yeah, my endpoint certainly delays it :)
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cweiske mine, too
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cweiske s/,//
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: mine too
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csarven The value of displaying without verifying is I suppose you get some real-timeness out of it.. but still subject to being an "unverified claim".
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voxpelli csarven: currently my endpoint treats all target URL:s that are included in the source page as a mention – no matter if there's mf2-data or not - mf2-data merely enhances the relation with additional data
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cweiske csarven, accepting the webmention does NOT mean displaying it
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rhiaro With an explicit target the endpoint has the option of disregarding it at once if it's not their domain, without having to parse source
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cweiske it only means that my endpoint has accepted it, and will handle it as it wishes
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csarven cweiske Fair enough, .. what does it mean then? Is it used in any way?
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cweiske yes. put in the queue
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voxpelli my endpoint is also shared between many sites so I would have a hard time knowing what target URL:s to look for if the source site doesn't tell me its intentions
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cweiske to be processed later
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csarven cweiske That's fine. I think that holds with my proposal. Accept the POST, decide what you want.
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rhiaro And knowing what to look for presumably just makes parsing easier
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cweiske no. I have to parse to return the URL
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cweiske "where its response contains the target URL"
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voxpelli not sure why it would be simpler to not tell the endpoint about the target URL as one would anyway have to look up the endpoint by fetching the target URL?
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voxpelli each and every target URL can have a different endpoint
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csarven Perhaps I'm not understanding the value of submitting the target URL if it is not "really" put to use. Isn't it true that the source URL has to be checked regardless before it is a confirmed mention?
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voxpelli One verifies whether the claimed mention is actually present in the source – but to verify a claim you have to have a claim in the first palce
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csarven What overrules? The POST information or what's in the source response?
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voxpelli the POST-data is the claim, the source is the verification, if the verification fails then the data is discarded
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voxpelli so one doesn't really overrule the other
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csarven Without verification, there is nothing to discuss.
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csarven Unless the endpoint is somehow putting the claims into use e.g., displaying.
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csarven Just to emphasize, I think it is important that the source URL is a permalink of the note/post/h-entry or whatever.
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rhiaro ^ that's required right?
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rhiaro There's no case where it wouldn't be
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cweiske webmention has no dependency on microformats
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rhiaro The source just had to contain a link to the target
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rhiaro Not necessarily marked up
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cweiske webmention has no dependency on html
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csarven cweiske Right, and that's all good I think.
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csarven A "webmention" can use mf2 or RDFa or xyz.
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cweiske no. a webmention doesn't use anything
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csarven The target only needs to look for property/ies that it wants to look for. It is simply receiving a list of claims (subject URLs) to go and check. based on whatever criteria it finds appropriate, it can display or use those "statements" as it likes.
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csarven cweiske I realize that it doesn't use anything in particular. It is however implicitly doing that.
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cweiske no. the tools that built upon it do
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voxpelli csarven: I would rather say: an endpoint A receives a claim of one page, B, mentioning/linking to another page, C, which has chosen to use A to gather WebMentions
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csarven cweiske I don' tknow why you are in the negative.. perhaps I'm not clear. Yes, the apps/service/whatever you want to call it is looking for whatever it wants to look for.
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voxpelli "A" verifies that the claim that B links to C is true and then does whatever further processing it feels it wants
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csarven voxpelli Yes, that's it.
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Loqi slack/snarfed: csarven: i think you might be right. i keep trying to come up with reasons target is required, but i can't
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Loqi slack/snarfed: at most, it changes the semantics a bit, from "process this wm for one target" to "process this wm for all targets you handle"
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cweiske there is a reason
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cweiske what if I have a page that contains 3 links to your server, but only one in the part of the page that I deem to be the content of the article
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cweiske my tool knows this and sends only one webmention for the one link
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cweiske but with csarven's proposal, the endpoint would do the parsing and find all three links
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cweiske because it does not know that I don't want to have the two others send to it
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csarven Which is why I emphasized on the point that the permalink (an item of some sort) is used as the source URL and not just any "page".
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cweiske that does not matter
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cweiske the source page contains 3 links
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cweiske and endpoint needs to find out which of the links on the page it wants to process
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csarven And only one of those links is of concern to the endpoint (as provided in source URL)
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cweiske source URL links to example.com/foo, and in its footer to example.com/a and example.com/b
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cweiske example.com's endpoint now needs to find out that *every* page in my source URL blog links to example.com/a and example.com/b
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ben_thatmustbeme cweiske: so what if it does, HOW to parse the data at that url is outside of this spec
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cweiske and that I don't want to send out webmentions for it
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cweiske only for the example.com/foo link
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snarfed1 cweiske is right, this removes the ability of the source to selectively send wms for only some links
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cweiske but I can't tell this to the endpoint if there is no target url parametert
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snarfed but *anyone* can send a wm for any source and target urls, so that's not a strong feature anyway
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ben_thatmustbeme feels this should probably move back to #social since it is really departing any indiewebcamp discussion
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snarfed (ben_thatmustbeme: really? does more webmention discussion happen there than here?)
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: just thinking that if its moving toward a discussion without mf2 and how things work without mf2, not sure its really too important here
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ben_thatmustbeme there has been discussion there too
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ben_thatmustbeme but you may be right, just stay here to keep things in one spot
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snarfed shrugs
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snarfed honestly, i think the biggest counterargument may be that it's not much of a simplification
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snarfed currently, the sender specifies the target. with this, the recipient returns the target(s)
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: the reason target is required is that it might not be a mention you wan to parse at all
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ben_thatmustbeme if i get a mention to /staticpageidon'tcareabout
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't bother even pulling the HTML
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voxpelli I don't see any issue with the current behavior – I don't see the problem that's being solved by not specifying a target
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll never display it anywhere
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: that's definitely nice. it's just an optimization though
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csarven voxpelli It was meant as a simplification, not raised as an issue on the current.
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snarfed but that does count
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: its also a matter of handling webmentions differently based on target, its a pretty big optimization in the case where you have to hand the webmention off to other code
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snarfed there's also the optimization that senders usually know their content better than targets, so they're better suited to find the target urls in a page for a given endpoint
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snarfed right
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voxpelli csarven: well, if there's no problem with the way it is – and if there's an apparent case where the current way actually provides some advantages – then why "simplify" it if there's no issue with the current approach?
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ben_thatmustbeme the final part is for security. if you have, say, a service for webmentions
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snarfed so we're down to, the proposal works, it just adds hidden complexities that may outweigh the POST param simplification
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ben_thatmustbeme webmention.io, and you refer to someone externally that does not have access to that post, but reply privately to someone who does
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snarfed (voxpelli: e.g. tantek would probably argue that simplicity is a good goal for its own sake :P)
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ben_thatmustbeme or leave out the externally referenced person
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ben_thatmustbeme the service has no clue what key to use to get private data
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voxpelli snarfed: sure, but we haven't proven that it's actually simpler yet, less parameters != simpler
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snarfed voxpelli: definitely! i'm just putting words in csarven's mouth, since simplicity was his original claim
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: tantek will argue what tantek will, i wouldn't expect to speak for him, but i would guess this will be, it works well right now arguement
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voxpelli sometimes it's simpler to be explicit rather than implicit about things, I rather like that in the current explicit approach
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snarfed agreed!
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: i don't quite follow that yet. afaik services like wm.io can't handle private wms anyway, regardless of whether target is present
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snarfed (unless you assume extra ACL/permission features, in which case we're getting pretty far afield)
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voxpelli I would certainly have to change my webmention.herokuapp.com endpoint rather much if I we're to accept target-less pings
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snarfed yup, bridgy and wm.io too
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csarven One simplification is that the target URL doesn't make the last call. As I understand it, source URL makes the call on the target URL. At the time of submitting the webmention, the target URL is only a "temporary" remark about the relation, nothing more. There is a claim, but it is not verified. The "owner" of the source URL makes the claim and fosters verification.
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csarven If the target URL at the time of submission differs than the target URL of the source URL, what then? Which is precisely why the source URL's mention of the target URL matters most.
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voxpelli snarfed: ben_thatmustbeme: what's private webmentions? has anyone done such? I think I've missed it if so
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csarven Otherwise, any third party can go and make those claims.
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voxpelli csarven: if the source page chooses to send a different target URL to the WebMention endpoint than it includes in its own page, then the source page is just acting weirdly?
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: there is work on it, private posts you send a standard webmention and the target site has to include a token to get ability to read it
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snarfed yes
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snarfed in practice we haven't seen any use case for wm'ing with target A1 when the source page actually has A2
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snarfed returning an error has worked fine so far
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: has already done this i believe
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: snarfed: I guess a shared endpoint like mine could handle that – with some fund token juggling and such :)
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voxpelli s/fund/fun/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: ben_thatmustbeme: snarfed: I guess a shared endpoint like mine could handle that – with some fun token juggling and such :)
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snarfed shudders
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csarven In that regard, how many permalinks (and again, I am not talking about a page with a feed on it, but instead an individual entry) have we seen making multiple webmentions?
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voxpelli I've been thinking of adding push notifications to the endpoint anyhow so getting private webmentions in there would make it pretty much a plug and play Twitter DM equivilant :)
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snarfed csarven: plenty
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voxpelli csarven: multiple webmentions from a single page is pretty ordinary – I mean – just look at Twitter for a silo-example – even in those 140 chars there's often very many mentions
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csarven Really? Is it documented? e.g., h-entry is a reply to h-entry1 h-entry2... h-entryn?
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csarven Wow, I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself.
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csarven I'm not talking about a friggin' page ;)
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snarfed csarven: http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: i make multiple webmentions a lot, (i send two webmentions to brid.gy for syndication a lot) plus some people do multiple in-reply-to
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ben_thatmustbeme its all in one h-entry
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voxpelli permalink / page– I think we're talking about the same thing, no?
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snarfed also, csarven we *are* talking about pages, since pages send wms just like replies/likes/etc :P
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csarven ben_thatmustbeme That's fine. Is that a very common thing? How many people doing that?
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: by sending multiple webmentions
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ben_thatmustbeme they usually have to go to different sites entirely anyway
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csarven What's the process on that by the way.. do you individually send the source/target pair per POST?
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snarfed csarven: yes
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: think of a webmention as a claim to a relationship existing, you claim 1 relationship per POST, webmention endpoint gets data from that URL to verify that specific relationship
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csarven voxpelli AFAIK, Twitter doesn't do a reply to multiple tweets.
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voxpelli even if all mentions goes to pages/permalinks on the same domain name, they could still have individual endpoints, so one has to look the endpoint up for each post and then individually ping that endpoint after each resolve
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voxpelli csarven: WebMentions only does mentions though, replies is an mf2-addition on top of it ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme you can @mention as many people as you like (or rather can fit) in twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme so yes, it does multiple mentions
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csarven Is there a "WebMention" property or is the relation inferred based on looking at the h-* information between source/target?
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voxpelli and Twitter does multiple mentions, in my last 5 tweets I have mentioned at least 2 people in each
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csarven Lets say in the case of people interested in mf2 in WebMentions.
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voxpelli if you find that the target link has an mf2-property when you verify the WebMention, then one can chose to use that to "upgrade" the relationship from a mention to a reply, like, bookmark, RSVP etc
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csarven In other words, how does a target know the kind of a relation made/claimed by source?
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ben_thatmustbeme waht voxpelli said
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ben_thatmustbeme default to mention, learn more from parsing
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voxpelli I've chosen to mainly look for like and repost metadata at https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ and constructed the "facepile" out of that
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voxpelli (I also parse whether it's a reply or just a mention, but I currently don't really use that data for anything)
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ben_thatmustbeme i need to add repost tracking to mine
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voxpelli there's quite a few different relation types that people experiment with: http://indiewebcamp.com/interactions
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csarven When you say "mention", are you using that as a general concept or is there a property called "mention"?
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voxpelli just the general concept of one page including the url of another
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snarfed csarven: mostly general concept. a few people use u-mention-of but not many
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csarven Looks at /interactions
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voxpelli u-mention-of feels a bit redundant to me :/ but probably that question of being explicit vs implicit about things again
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snarfed right
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: regarding the private posts – would the token be the same kind of token one sends when doing a Micropub call? (but probably with a "read" scope instead of "post"?)
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voxpelli indieauth token, right?
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csarven So, I take it that WebMention endpoints (interested in mf2 or alike) would be interested in keeping a local copy of the vocabulary used in practice at /interactions
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snarfed voxpelli: afaik yes. aaronpk and ben_thatmustbeme et al discussed this at length yesterday, and wikified a bit. probably worth reading logs
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voxpelli snarfed: so hard to keep up on everything :P
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snarfed csarven: often yes
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: could be anything, but thats the simplest implementation, there is discussion on how to get that token across best still
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah
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ben_thatmustbeme i have stopped trying
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: got a wiki page?
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ben_thatmustbeme it gets too much sometimes
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voxpelli I just made things a bit more complicated by creating a Micropub endpoint in addition to my WebMentions endpoint – so now I have to keep up with everything regarding both :P
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snarfed (csarven: although "vocabulary" is a bit strong, since most people only support like, repost, and maybe rsvp)
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ben_thatmustbeme what is private-webmention? i think that has a some of the data voxpelli, i need to get up to date on some of the discussion myself
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Loqi private-webmention is a suggested protocol for combining microformats2, Webmention, and IndieAuth to convey private posts between two people or between groups of people https://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention
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csarven snarfed A list of terms :) Small dictionary.. a small definition-list.. just semantics :)
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: cool, thanks, then I have something to bookmark as a reference for when I get time to look at it :) I think eg. salmentions will have a higher priority
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: same here
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kylewm aaronpk: is it possible to differentiate a webmention that was proxied from webmention.io's pingback handler from a real one? it looks like the U-A is just "Ruby"
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@jgarber @kissane @heywren This is a part of what the #indieweb movement is trying to accomplish, but it’s early days and still very technical. (twitter.com/_/status/621336131116900352)
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@lackaff The death of the Web, the rise of the Stream, & the "jealous gaze" of social media: https://medium.com/matter/the-web-we-have-to-save-2eb1fe15a426 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/621336253665902592)
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@jgarber @kissane @heywren Events like IndieWebCamp are still niche, but the desire to create tools for all is there, I think. http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/621336449632354304)
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@voxpelli @pragmaticcode Have you looked at adding Micropub to Linky? An open API effort by the @indiewebcamp community: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (twitter.com/_/status/621337468701396993)
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aaronpk reads scrollback
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aaronpk wow I can't believe anyone is suggesting that the webmention response would be delayed until the endpoint parsed the source page
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aaronpk looks like the webmention discussion ended with no resolution?
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aaronpk kylewm: you want some indication that webmention.io is sending you a forwarded pingback? sounds like a good issue to open
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aaronpk I could add something to the user agent, or add an HTTP header, whatever
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snarfed aaronpk: csarven later modified his proposal to not require returning the target URL, so async would be ok
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snarfed i think the conclusion was that it's technically doable, but probably adds more implementation complexity than it removes
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aaronpk the proposal was basicaly to drop the "target" parameter, right?
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snarfed right
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snarfed so recipients would handle any links in the source doc that they can
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csarven That is pretty much the case right now any way.
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aaronpk so in that case, the webmention becomes more of a "hey you might be interested in this page" notification
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csarven That is the case right now as well.
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aaronpk no, right now it's "hey this page linked to this other page, go verify it"
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csarven Practically the same thing, but okay, we can go with that description.
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csarven Everything remains the same. The difference is again, a simplification by dropping the target URL at submission time.
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voxpelli (people sometimes uses it to link to their own posts as well, when eg. doing a multi-part blog post or continuing one some othe rline of thought they had previously posted)
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csarven It is not needed as one would have to verify in any case.
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voxpelli it communicates intent and context
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention (+29) "/* verifying private webmentions */" (view diff)
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csarven Gar. I have to run. I'll have to read/reply later.
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@HongPong a high point for my experience lurking at MIT when @timberners_lee made off with a burrito from #indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/business/status/621338668305883136 (twitter.com/_/status/621340790296588288)
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csarven snarfed I don't recall proposing what you just said.
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aaronpk I guess I just don't see why it's simpler at all. sure it's one less parameter in the post request, but the sender already has that value anyway
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aaronpk because that's the URL they found the webmention endpoint at
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csarven Redundant as I see it.
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snarfed csarven: apologies if i misquoted you. it probably does need that change though, otherwise you can't do async, which is pretty important
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aaronpk yeah there's no way i'm gonna do webmention processing synchronously
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aaronpk so i'm gonna continue this thread as if the proposal allows async procesing
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csarven snarfed No worries. I may have missed that suggestion earlier.
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aaronpk here's why it's not redundant, and is actually a good idea to include in the webmention request
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aaronpk when I get a webmention request, I need to verify that it's valid, and I also optionally parse the page for microformats to "upgrade" it to a like/repost/whatever
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aaronpk when the target parameter is in the request, the initial verification is easy, because I know the pattern on the page I'm looking for
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csarven Your "verification" is based on the POST? You don't check the actual source URL to physically see whether it is pointing to target URL?
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aaronpk what no
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aaronpk of course i check the source that's what i'mt alking about
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aaronpk when I go fetch the source HTML, I'm looking for the specific string that was in the "target" parameter
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csarven Then it is the source that tells you what it is targeting in reality, not the information in the pOST>
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aaronpk listen to what i'm saying
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csarven You may be using the POST for the purpose of other htings.
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csarven OK
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csarven BBL...
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aaronpk with the target parameter, I am looking for a specific pattern. without the target parameter, I don't know exactly what I'm looking for
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voxpelli +1
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snarfed aaronpk: right. you'd have to look for all urls (or domains, etc) that your endpoint handles
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snarfed this is the added implementation complexity i alluded to, and that we discussed earlier
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aaronpk therefore it's easier for me to handle the webmention request if the target parameter is included
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voxpelli and self-mentions would be impossible as _all_ links to ones own blog would always be mentioned on each and every self-ping
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aaronpk and since it's no extra burden on the sender to include it, and makes it easier for the receiver, it's a good idea to do it
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aaronpk does that sound like a reasonable justification?
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aaronpk I'm going to add that to the wiki as an FAQ, and hopefully we can close this discussion
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voxpelli I like it
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention (+943) "/* FAQ */ why is target required" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - definitely add csarven's simplification brainstorm and follow-up to the wiki. Since he came up with it, it's likely someone else will come up with it again in the future, and having a good explanation for why it's overall not simpler (sender+receiver overall complexity) will help.
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 7/14 at 1:55pm: for person B support, Person-tag is written but completely untested and i need to set up receiving salmentions, but then i have to rewrite all of my notifications and mention processing stuff sometime soon http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-14/line/1436907317741
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 7/14 at 1:55pm: Cool, can't wait to get Web Notifications cross browser http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-14/line/1436907345426
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ben_thatmustbeme 'self-mentions would be impossible' really sums it up for me
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tantek my addition: don't forget that the receiver *also* has to do redirect handling on the target URL, which is MUCH easier/simpler with *one* specified target URL, whereas having to do a HEAD request on every URL in the source to see if it *might* link to the target "somewhere" is A LOT more complexity and work.
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aaronpk tantek: good point about following redirects!
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tantek in addition, for any kind of "sending" type protocol (which webmention is), it's much better to balance the work between sender and receiver, than to fully burden the receiver (which e.g. SMTP does, and was clearly a mistake, spam/forgeries etc.)
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aaronpk already added a bunch to the wiki, will add that
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tantek thank you!
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tantek this kind of falsification of a potential simplification documentation is essential for longevity of design
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tantek it helps establish that we (collectively as a community) have considered nearby possibilities/alternatives
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ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, don't know how we all missed that
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ben_thatmustbeme the redirects part
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tantek yeah it's kind of a big burden
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ben_thatmustbeme Woah, tantek, i just noticed that the <title> tag to your posts contain the entire content of the post
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm guessing thats because the post has no title and thus from MF2 parsing it uses the content
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aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention (+251) "/* Why is the target URL a required parameter */ add note about following redirects" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme was looking at this http://tantek.com/2015/193/t2/user-flow-permalinks-indieweb-swat0
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: hah - did you see the screenshots kevinmarks posted?
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-07-01-homebrew-website-club (+2) (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, no
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, he noticed it the same way i did
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ben_thatmustbeme i happened to hover over the tab and said "what the hell was that?"
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tantek also the reason it's like that is a combination of legacy and laziness
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tantek originally I published that way as a hint to consuming applications/code that it was a note - that is title==content
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tantek however I don't think that anyone depends on / uses that anymore
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tantek and frankly auto_link (of the content but not title obv) breaks that too
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tantek so now it's a combination of design problem (how to best shorten the synthetic title for notes?) and laziness (haven't implemented even a dumb shortening of synthetic title)
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tantek design/algorithm suggestions welcome. best I have so far is first sentence and/or ellipse to 70 char length at most.
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ben_thatmustbeme i think thats a generally reasonable method to use
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: how do you generate the <title> of your note posts?
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club (+59) "move location" (view diff)
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aaronpk Jeena: ^^
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tantek oh boy, location change day of?
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aaronpk well it's the same location as last week
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tantek maybe consider putting up a physical sign at the previous location?
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tantek so anyone that errantly shows up there (because they already copy/pasted it into their calendar) gets the fwd?
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tantek also indieevent and all POSSE copies (FB, calagator)
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tantek hey that reminds me
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aaronpk i don't think i have a facebook event for this week yet
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tantek aaronpk - when you update the location on your indieevent post, do you send webmentions to all the RSVPs and invitations?
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tantek (did I just make up a new update protocol?)
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Jeena hehe neat aaronpk :D
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tantek and of course that should result in notifications for those that RSVPd or were invited
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tantek "aaronparecki.com changed the location of the event Homebrew Website Club Meetup Portland"
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Jeena I still can't automatically RSVP with my website
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I don't, the site generically starts with Ben Roberts, and then if there is a title to whatever post you are viewing it adds that
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aaronpk isn't that what a salmention is?
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tantek aaronpk: I don't think so, because your indie event is not in-reply-to anything
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aaronpk or did we not specify that webmentions should be re-sent to comments
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tantek and you're not passing along an external change, but rather YOU made a change to your post
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aaronpk if you send webmentions for any updates you make to your post, you'd be doing this already by default
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jeena.net edited /events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club (+32) "/* RSVP */ Portland Jeena" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - I'm not sure people think about sending webmentions to links they didn't create themselves (e.g. links created automatically by linking back to comments on a post)
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tantek the only variant of this that I've proposed before is reply-context updates
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ben_thatmustbeme salmentions go upstream, this is a message in a bottle floating downstream
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aaronpk hm, I suppose it's worth calling out explicitly
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aaronpk even though the link is on the page, it is likely not in the internal canonical version of the page
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Jeena yeah, I don't do that yet, I only webmention the links in my own content but that is a good point
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tantek that is, when you receive a comment/like/repost, and then you update your original post, you should send a webmention to the comment/like/repost wherein it can notice that the thing they are a response to has been updated, and update their reply-context / like-summary/context / or perhaps entire repost?
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tantek the event case is a bit different still
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aaronpk for example the contents of my posts are in a file, but the comments live elsewhere in the filesystem. i actually internally render the HTML of just my post and send webmentions to those links, so it is additional code for me to send webmentions to comment URLs
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tantek updates https://wiki.mozilla.org/WeeklyUpdates/2015-07-13#Wednesday.2C_15_July
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tantek aaronpk - precisely
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tantek the event case is different because invitations
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tantek that is, invitations are content *you* added to your indie event, not from an external source
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tantek and they require webmentions to a homepage, not a post permalink
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aaronpk yes but RSVPs may be unsolicited replies just like comments
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tantek correct
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Zegnat I am not sure I would even expect a webmention coming downstream, as the original post doesn’t actually “mention” me
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aaronpk for anyone who RSVPd to be able to render notification text like "aaronparecki.com changed the location of an event" it means they need to store the event at the time they RSVPd so they can tell what changed
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tantek Zegnat - it does once it links back to you!
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tantek aaronpk - yes!
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tantek that should be in the reply-context of the RSVP!
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tantek (now we're getting somewhere)
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aaronpk right!
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Zegnat tantek, does that mean that, for every comment I add to my page, I should send a webmention to all other comments as well? That sounds like people would soon get flooded with webmentions
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aaronpk good, so there are 2 reasons to store the data
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aaronpk sending webmentions to everyone who commented when a new comment comes in would enable the notification text "someone commented on a post you commented on"
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Zegnat yes, but also means that if all of them parse the comment thread and update theirs and do the same thing you will be notified of the same comment thread on X different websites
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voxpelli aaronpk: that would be enabled by subscribing to new comments through PuSH as well? (not sure if you've already mentioned that, should read scrollback)
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aaronpk oh yeah PuSH is another way of doing that
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voxpelli I'm thinking WebMentions for targeted pings and PuSH for broadcasted "pings"
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tantek Zegnat - yes! FB does this with notifications!
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tantek "someone commented on a post you are following"
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tantek once you have commented on a post you get that ^^^ notification for all subsequent posts
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tantek er, maybe more like "someone commented on a post you commented on"
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tantek Zegnat good catch!
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tantek reads aaronpk already saying the same thing :P
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tantek what voxpelli said
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Zegnat "someone commented on a post you commented on" but wouldn't you get that notification for every site that mirrors the comment thread? And all those sites have different permalinks, so can’t easily be filtered out? Maybe I am overthinking it and we should wait for implementation
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tantek wow if we actually end up spec'ing all the different notification variants that FB / IG / Twitter etc. do, but with federated webmentions, I think we win.
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tantek Zegnat - no you only get it directly from the site you commented on
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tantek that's part of the elegance of the salmentions design!
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voxpelli But what if one wants to unsubscribe/unfollow? Removing a PuSH-subscription is easy, removing a WebMention "subscription" is impossible(?)
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Zegnat no. if my site has threaded comments and with salmentions let me add deeper levels it will grow long with comments from people who never actually replied directly to me. But if I have to send a webmention downstream to every link on my page (that includes replies-to-replies), and everyone else does that too, your 3 levels deep comment can easily get a lot of webmentions. One from each site that mirrors the discussion
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Zegnat or should the reverse-salmentions be specified to *only* send to direct replies / RSVPs? That would solve it, but I don’t think anyone mentioned that yet
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Loqi slack/snarfed: voxpelli: probably the right way to handle that is on your own site, ie choosing which kind of wms you send yourself push (if whatever) notifications for
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voxpelli Zegnat: I would say the downstream ones would have to subscribe to the upstream parts over PuSH if they want to get updates, WebMentions / Salmentions should only go upstream imho, PuSH is what flows downstream
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Loqi slack/snarfed: ie only loosely couple webmentions (plumbing) with notifications (UX)
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voxpelli feels preferable to get the fat pings of PuSH as well if one starts to get very many interactions to ones post
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voxpelli a conference with 500 attendees would be much better of notifying people that has subscribed to updates rather than just sending WebMention pings to all those who has RSVP:ed and have all of them at once verify the WebMention
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@garethjordan The Web We Have to Save - The Web We Have to Save https://medium.com/matter/the-web-we-have-to-save-2eb1fe15a426 via DuckDuckGo for Android #IndieWeb #OpenSource #FOSS (twitter.com/_/status/621361703381405696)
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voxpelli or am I missing something?
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tantek voxpelli: it's a good question (500 webmentions vs. PuSH)
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aaronpk I think I like the PuSH for downstream updates, webmention for upstream comments thing
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tantek definitely a must read indieweb article: https://medium.com/matter/the-web-we-have-to-save-2eb1fe15a426
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rhiaro catches up on last 4 hours of logs
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tantek some goodtimes in there rhiaro
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@bhenick Antipodean, spent yrs in prison, yet I totally agree with him: https://medium.com/matter/the-web-we-have-to-save-2eb1fe15a426 #indieweb //cc @mollydotcom @h0d3r (twitter.com/_/status/621374249257664512)
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tantek !tell benwerd note comments markup updated slightly with u-comment instead of p-comment, see https://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_markup for update and reasons!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret what other "type"s can be used with the <script> tag?
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cweiske vbscript
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aaronpk some people cram templates or data into pages using the script tag too
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bret oh its also for accessing ES6 features in firefox
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tantek bret - see also Microsoft's failed XML Data Islands and Google's reinvention of it with JSONLD Data Islands (which will likely fail in 5-10 years like XML Data Islands did)
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bret i was just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ about it... i always put JS in it
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tantek bret FYI: http://tantek.com/2011/188/t6/ie10-drops-conditional-comments-please-add-history
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tantek (from 2011)
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tantek and more recently: http://tantek.com/2015/020/t2/google-reinvents-microsoft-xml-data-islands
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bret yeah i remember that tweet
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bret lol
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bret they want to belive
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club (+214) "/* What */ Topics for tonight, IWC 2015 review (SWAT0!!), "The Web We Have To Save"" (view diff)
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cweiske ha. xml data islands
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cweiske I actually used that at the time
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cweiske but I also spit out XML with XSL stylesheets
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cweiske and didn't care about browsers that did not ship with XSLT
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GWG So, I tried to add query support to the WordPress Micropub plugin and thought I was doing something wrong till I realized that the endpoint is a query string and thus is an issue for adding a query string to
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GWG Trying to figure out how to address it
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aaronpk oh funny. well clients should be able to add to the query string
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GWG aaronpk: I was trying with Quill
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aaronpk sounds like a bug in quill then ;)
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GWG That is what I was wondering. I think it would be an issue for most clients
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GWG I filed an issue.
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aaronpk thx
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GWG Of course, my query code is not in the stable version yet.
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GWG I sort of wanted to test it before the PR. Better try the other clients
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aaronpk what are you adding?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you adding" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+adding&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-15%2Fline%2F1436984836727
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GWG aaronpk: Syndicate-to was this morning
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aaronpk aha
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GWG Some misc fixes. Support for my plugins and post formats.
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club (+29) "/* Topics */ feel free to add more" (view diff)
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GWG Basically adding more from the specs while making it useful for me
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csarven aaronpk The current design is arbitrary because it doesn't specify how to handle redundancy or errors either. It is not "extra burden" to add/leave the target parameter if you are the one that's coming up with the definition of the complexity. The point is that, it is *safer* to ignore the target URL in submission, because it becomes obsolete the second you look into the source URL - which is something you have to do any way! Your
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csarven concern on what to look for is as well an arbitrary concern. source URL is simply the atomic item (on a page) which made the reference to the target URL. It is quite trivial to figure out what to look for especially if one can count the number of possible properties under IWC/interactions.
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aaronpk csarven: did you not see my comment about looking for the specific URL vs looking for all URLs *after* following redirects?!
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aaronpk for example, good luck convincing anyone to write code that accepts your "source" parameter where they then have to look for all URLs on the page, follow redirects on all, and look for any that match their site
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csarven What "all URLs" are you referring to? Again, Webmention doesn't specify in any way how the receiver should handle/parse the response, so why are you imposing that is somehow an issue?
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csarven If you do give the instructions and people go out of their way, okay, then we can discuss.
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aaronpk webmention requires that the receiver verify the link exists
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csarven But Webmention is not giving those instructions whatsoever
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@voxpelli Updated a lot of dependencies + moved from Node 0.10 to iojs on my WebMention endpoint: https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ Please ping me if it acts up (twitter.com/_/status/621388096022687744)
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aaronpk what are you talking about
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you talking about" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+talking+about&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-15%2Fline%2F1436985443266
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aaronpk webmention verification is a ting
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csarven I'm well aware of that. I have stressed that point 50 times now.
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aaronpk nothing about webmention verification requires microformats, sure, but it does say to go look at the source URL and verify the link to your site exists
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csarven Webmention endpoint tries to verify x relation y. Period. x and y can be anywhere.
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csarven I never said anything about mf. Why are you bringing thta up even?
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aaronpk in case you were confused? i'm not sure
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csarven Minimize your assumptions. Just a suggestion.
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aaronpk webmention says the receiver goes and fetches the source URL and looks for the target link
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aaronpk if the target link is not specified, the receiver has to look at ALL URLS on the page, follow redirects on all, and decide which are targets
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csarven "Webmention endpoint tries to verify x relation y. Period. x and y can be anywhere. " is significantly different than "go look at the source URL and verify the link to your site exists"
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aaronpk i don't know where you got "Webmention endpoint tries to verify x relation y" from
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csarven perhaps you are confused? :)
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@voxpelli @maxogden thanks! lots of interesting things happening in the @indiewebcamp community, check eg. https://www.brid.gy/ and such as well :) (twitter.com/_/status/621389077322039297)
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aaronpk and i don't know what you mean by "can be anywhere"
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csarven I'm looking at the README for WM.
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csarven anywhere on the Web
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csarven under any domain.
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csarven controlled by any authority.
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aaronpk "relation" does not appear on either webmention page
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aaronpk so i still don't know what you're talking about
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csarven Argh.. I'll use terms that you can understand.
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voxpelli relation == mention I assume
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csarven How about a "property"
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csarven Yes a "mention" will do
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csarven The "property" is not specified by Webmention.
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csarven Nor the data model.
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csarven So.. that whole thing is completley open for the consumer / webpoint endpoint.
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csarven s/webpoint/webmention
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Loqi csarven meant to say: So.. that whole thing is completley open for the consumer / webmention endpoint.
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aaronpk csarven: out of curiosity, have you implemented either sending or receiving webmentions yet?
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csarven The point is that, there is some sort of a statement made by source URL about target URL with a particular kind of a relation. That relation ... is what you conceptually call a "mention". There are some properties for it documented at http://indiewebcamp.com/interactions as I'm told.
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csarven aaronpk Not yet. Is that relevant to the discussion?
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aaronpk potentially yes. because arguments not based on implemention experience tend to be less useful.
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snarfed1 aaronpk++
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csarven heh
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Loqi aaronpk has 886 karma
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csarven snarfed1++
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Loqi snarfed1 has 1 karma
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csarven snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 114 karma
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csarven Karmas all around.
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voxpelli what is selfdogfooding?
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Loqi selfdogfood is a stronger form of dogfooding, that is, using your own creations on your own personal site that you depend on, as an aspect of your primary online identity, day to day — if you're not willing to use your creation on your own primary personal website, why should anyone else use it on their primary personal website? https://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfooding
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csarven voxpelli++
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Loqi slow down!
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gRegorLove /interactions is about extracting meaning from the mf2 on the source page, not directly related to the webmention itself
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gRegorLove As I understand it
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csarven gRegorLove Right.
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csarven But it is the only tangible thing we can point at that's used along with Webmention as I've gathered here.
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voxpelli csarven: most WebMention implementations doesn't care what type of a mention a mention is
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voxpelli most IndieWeb-implementations that is
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snarfed csarven: mostly, but not entirely. other small webmention uses include salmentions, bridgy publish triggering (https://www.brid.gy/about#publish), etc
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voxpelli some endpoints use it as a way to progressively enhance mentions of known interaction types, but all that I know of falls back to a simple basic mention presentation on unknown types
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csarven aaronpk I find it amusing that you had to resort to "have you implemented Webmention" yet.
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csarven And with snarfed and voxpelli onboard, I feel ganged up with all the karmas and citations to the Wikis fly aorund.
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aaronpk csarven: no, you are just completely ignoring my arguments
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csarven You are not at all addressing what I'm stating.
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gRegorLove Right, voxpelli. In my implementation I parse for in-reply-to mf2 and if so, extract the plaintext content as a comment. Otherwise I just show "[User] mentioned this"
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csarven The decisions you are making right now are completely arbitrary.
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aaronpk not arbitrary, they are based on implmentation experience
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csarven Right, and I'm suggesting a simplication because wha tyou have is redundant.
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voxpelli gRegorLove: interesting! I always show the "content" if it isn't a repost or a like
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aaronpk i thought i pointed out why it's not redundanty
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Why_is_the_target_URL_a_required_parameter
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csarven Whatever
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gRegorLove Er, I guess I do parse /likes as well.
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aaronpk webmention is a protocol that says one page linked to another page
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csarven ++ to you for editing a wiki page
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csarven Should I go and create a bunch of URLs with my argument?
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voxpelli gRegorLove: so I actually don't make a difference between a reply and a mention currently
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csarven Would an URL to the IRC chat log suffice?
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aaronpk webmention is not a protocol for saying one person liked a post by another person
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aaronpk i put it on the wiki because it will likely be asked again, so thanks for asking the question in the first place
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voxpelli csarven: well, the flow that often happens in discussions here are that people implement things, documents experiences and iterates on that over and over – hence the general strong focus on selfdogfeeding
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gRegorLove voxpelli: I think the main reason I'm doing that is in case a blog post links to me, I don't want to display the entire blog post.
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csarven heh
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ben_thatmustbeme looks in. Is this arguement still going on?
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csarven With what.. like 5 people implementing?
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gRegorLove I think adactio doesn't make that distinction either. I wrote an article linking to him and the whole post showed up on his page, heh.
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voxpelli gRegorLove: right, I think I limit the length of the post content and just shows a "..." if its too long
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csarven Hey, you guys go ahead. I'm going to excuse myself. It seems like IWC is allergic to new ideas or their own ideas being challenged.
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aaronpk csarven: like i said, thanks for bringing it up, but i disagree with the assertion you made and i documented why
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csarven I have yet to hear a sound argument against the simplification meanwhile not changing the fundmanetals of Webmention
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csarven aaronpk I appreciate your acknowledgement and response. KUTGW
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gRegorLove counts more than five http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Implementations
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: " It seems like IWC is allergic to new ideas or their own ideas being challenged."? seems to be getting a bit unnecessary
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ben_thatmustbeme usually after like 5 or 6 people stop putting their name on the wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme at least from what i have observed
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ben_thatmustbeme that page does have a lot of implementations listed
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csarven re: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Why_is_the_target_URL_a_required_parameter .. receiver also doesn't know which "mention" to look for. however, it makes a decision regardless on what it is interested in. So, why is that on one hand the "easier" argument is made when it is not at all essential to the architecture of Webmention, and on another somehow "what to look for" is this rocket science. Wakeup call: the receiver is maki
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csarven ng all the decisions in the end - Webmention doesn't specify anything any way other than saying that, go and look at the source URL to see if there is a relation to a target URL that you want.
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aaronpk okay I think I see what you're getting at
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csarven So, that is arbitrary design IMHO
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csarven I'm not saying it is bad.
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aaronpk i'll tell you why i'ts not arbitrary, one sec
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csarven I'll even buy the argument on "easier".
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csarven ben_thatmustbeme Sorry, you are right. A bit unnecessary :) I'd like to retract that.. Would Loqi allow? =)
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Loqi :)
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ben_thatmustbeme he seems to smile upon that idea
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aaronpk from start to finish, (receiving initial POST request to displaying a "like" on the page) you are correct that the receiver has to look at the source page and figure it out from there, and the target parameter doesn't help with figuring out the *meaning* of the webmention
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aaronpk however, the semantics of the like/repost/comment/whatever is secondary to the webmention itself, since a page with no microformats can still be useful to displaya on the target page
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csarven Is the latter a simple x hyperlinks to b?
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aaronpk yes
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aaronpk because not all pages contain microformats, receivers have to first look for a plain link to their page on the source page
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aaronpk then they optionally upgrade that from a generic "mention" or "links to" to something more specific like "commented on" or "liked"
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aaronpk it gets better:
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aaronpk because there is no authentication, this is an easy target for spam. a webmention endpoint needs to be able to reject bogus requests as quickly as possible.
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aaronpk which is why the simplest possible initial check is important, before doing things like microformats parsing and inspecting that data structure
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csarven Why not give the complete statement to the Webmention endpoint?
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csarven e.g., h-entryX u-in-reply-to h-entryY (only an example)
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aaronpk that is a potentially useful addition, but a totally different idea
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ben_thatmustbeme because you can't trust it
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csarven The endpoint can at least know whether to decide to work with mf2 or not.
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aaronpk you can't trust it, but it would help you know where to look on the page
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csarven I agree that you can't ultimately trust it unless you check the source URL.
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed. though for that i would suggest #fragment should be used really
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csarven But given the complete statement will tell the endpoint precisely WHICH statement to verify
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ben_thatmustbeme plus you then have to question what to do when they tell you its in-reply-to, but its not, its actually just a mention, etc
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aaronpk if you're going to consider adding something to the publishing and consuming of webmention, you have to consider how difficult it is for both parties to deal with
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csarven Because.. if your h-entry states "in-reply-to" as well as "likes" to my h-entry, well, that's something the current Webmention endpoint can't precisely figure out. It will probably take both.
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voxpelli as far as I see it, as long as there's a link at all the verification is successful – everything else is just about presentation and/or filtering of content – that's step 2
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: i treat it as both, i store as a reply and a like
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aaronpk voxpelli: yes. i think csarven is implying that since most of the time the webmention is also communicating some other semantics, why not optimize for that? (is that correct csarven?)
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voxpelli csarven: it's not a challenge that WebMention's is really conserned with – that's a general challenge you have when presenting an mf2 post – should you emphasize the "like"-part or the "reply" part, chose one or both?
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ben_thatmustbeme at least that the theory, not tested since people really don't do it
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csarven aaronpk Right. Either simplify and let the endpoint figure it out all (since no real instructions are given but everything is left to the discretion of the target), or be very precise about what you want the webmention endpoint to know (i.e., to look further into)
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csarven As an added bonus, the endpoint can even decide what to do without even making a single GET request.
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ben_thatmustbeme a better way to think about it is this, webmention endpoints all have MF2 processing plugins right now, WM endpoint just verifies that the target URL is at the specified page, and that this URL is of your domain (or redirects to it if you follow it) . The rest is processing done by your MF2 side of things, but this could be swapped for other things
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csarven 1. Is it mf2? Yes 2. Is it an "in-reply-to"? No. Then I don't want it.
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voxpelli I'm thinking of adding additional processing as well, like Open Graph data
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: unless they sent it wrong as like instead of in-reply-to. its a reply you want but now you aren't checking it.
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csarven True. But, then again, life is hard :)
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ben_thatmustbeme putting mf2 class in to WM sort of breaks seperation of concerns for me
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csarven It doesn't have to be an mf2
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voxpelli so far no implementations has felt a need for any such extra verification of the "mention-type"
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csarven That's left for open
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csarven source URL, relation URL, target URL
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: +1 on the separation of concerns
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, almost sounds like an extension
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ben_thatmustbeme just like vouch
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ben_thatmustbeme also, at that point csarven, its really just an optimization
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voxpelli an optimization that no current implementation has really felt a need for :/
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csarven e.g., relation URL: http://microformats.org/profile#u-in-reply-to
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csarven or.. http://example.org/foo
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ben_thatmustbeme you can send it, but chances are people will ignore it, and not send it either
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voxpelli I'm rather liberal in what I accept than starting to verify that the mf2 data matches the pinged data – as long as there's any link at all I'm fine, then someone isn't faking something
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csarven If the Webmention endpoint sees the relationURL, it knows what to do with it - it may not even want to bother with the HTTP GETing the source URL for the verification.
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ben_thatmustbeme whats that quote about being liberal in what you accept and... something
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aaronpk right, this is where it goes back to implementation experience. so far nobody has indicated they've had any trouble with the way it currently works
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kylewm what is Postel's law?
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csarven ben_thatmustbeme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: i could point you back in to the conversation earlier where you were arguing thats just an optization, not necessary
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ben_thatmustbeme of course you were talking about target= at the time
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voxpelli I think much of this boils down to: any endpoint can choose to support or ignore any parameters they want and if that shows to deliver a better overall experience for everyone involved then other implementations will likely follow
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csarven side-effect. Not the primary reason to have the relation URL
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gRegorLove pokes Loqi
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Loqi goes squish.
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kylewm Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 357 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme hahaha, Loqi
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petermolnar good evening, everyone
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loqi.me created /Postels_Law (+25) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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petermolnar a-not-too-glorfindel
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petermolnar s/a-not-too-glorfindel/what the hell happened to my keyboard?/
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: what the hell happened to my keyboard?
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voxpelli looks like the twitter bot that mentions everything indieweb and webmentions doesn't really care about micropub stuff, what's up with that aaronpk? :)
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voxpelli means one can be all stealthy with ones micropub discussions
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aaronpk too many references to actual pubs for a "micropub" search to work
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aaronpk tho a search for micropub -beer -scotland might work
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aaronpk nope
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voxpelli ah, I see
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rhiaro Hah
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voxpelli regarding https://twitter.com/pragmaticcode/status/621400788221472768 – has there been any iOS IndieAuth / Micropub development?
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@pragmaticcode @voxpelli didn't know Micropub, looks cool but not sure for adding it to Linky in a near future. I keep it in the user's suggestions list. (twitter.com/_/status/621400788221472768)
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aaronpk i have a stupid simple ios app that does
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cweiske ben_thatmustbeme, my webmention endpoint does not have MF2 processing
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme made a real mobile app
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voxpelli aaronpk: thinking that anything that lowers the threshold would be good to be able to point someone like that to
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aaronpk ah
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cweiske so the "all" was a bit exaggerated
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aaronpk i actually cheated with mine and it uses server-side code to do the indieauth login process
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: don't you use micropub with your pushup app thing?
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aaronpk yeah that's the one
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Jeena I need to implement handling of images before I can make a android client which will be able to post offline (it caches it and posts it when there is internet with the right date, etc.)
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ben_thatmustbeme cweiske: it doesn't? interesting. what do you do with webmentions?
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cweiske store them in a database and send mails to me
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cweiske in the future i might implement WM display on the website
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cweiske but that's not high on my priority list
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cweiske getting ben not to cry anymore is #1 right now
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cweiske another ben :)
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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Jeena aaronpk, https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub mentiones mp-syndicate-to is this the preferred way or is it just an old artifact?
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ben_thatmustbeme cweiske: too many bens
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why ben.thatmustbe.us exists :P
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ben_thatmustbeme considers just searching for every person named ben with a personal blog he can find and just adding them all
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Jeena ben_thatmustbeme, you have 4 rss links, two times to rss and two times to all content, what is the difference?
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@voxpelli @jaredsinclair Thinking a lib that fixes the UI-dance with web redirects which one can create a plugin for – want for http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuthProtocol (twitter.com/_/status/621404990175903744)
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ben_thatmustbeme jeena: huh?
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't have rss at all on my site?
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ben_thatmustbeme ben.thatmustbe.us randomly picks a ben's website and redirects
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Jeena I just clicked on a ben at whithknown
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Jeena haha ok
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ben_thatmustbeme indie.thatmustbe.us randomly picks from everyone on irc-people
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ben_thatmustbeme well of those that loaded, i trimmed a few
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Jeena I was confused because I just clicked on that link the second time and there was a different site
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather those on the page at the time i polled it, i need to fix that to acutally poll over and over
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ben_thatmustbeme indieweb roulette
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't remember who coined that term for it
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Jeena hehe ok, now I can't find that site anymore :D
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ben_thatmustbeme Jeena: https://ben.thatmustbe.me, http://mlncn.withknown.com/, http://werd.io/, http://throwingbones.com/, http://www.benatkin.com/, http://bigbluehat.com/, http://benward.uk
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ben_thatmustbeme thost are the ones on the ben list
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Jeena ok it was the mlncn one
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ben_thatmustbeme Jeena: i'm guessing that all of Known then
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voxpelli Thinking some more on iOS, IndieAuth and MicroPub – the "complication" there would probably be that one would want to authenticate against Twitter with the native authentication rather than the web one
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ben_thatmustbeme they ahve different rel values
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voxpelli But that would also mean that one could probably do the entire IndieAuthProtocol thing without showing a single web view?
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ben_thatmustbeme weird
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: huh, don't know about ios dev
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aaronpk twitter auth isn't required for indieauth protocol
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ben_thatmustbeme my app is apache cordova, so its written in html/css/js and just compiled to android (and ios if anyone cares to do that)
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ben_thatmustbeme Jeens, ask benwerd on that one though
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ben_thatmustbeme s/Jeens/Jeena
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: Jeena, ask benwerd on that one though
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loqi.me created /Ben (+51) "prompted by Zegnat and dfn added by ben_thatmustbeme" (view diff)
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voxpelli aaronpk: right, so one would always have to use the web unless one could detect that a specific web endpoint had a matching app :P
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aaronpk the first step is to look at the person's home page and find their authorization endpoint
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aaronpk so you'd just send them there
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voxpelli thinking about if he can convince one of the iOS devs he knows to code this
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aaronpk it's that authorization endpoint that may have support for twitter login
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voxpelli yeah
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voxpelli one could probably base it on something like: https://github.com/calebd/SimpleAuth/tree/master/Pod/Providers/Instagram
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voxpelli doesn't look that hard to add such a provider
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aaronpk i guess what i'm saying is the app won't know whether the auth server supports twitter or whatever
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voxpelli aaronpk: absolutely, I'm thinking beyond that now – if one could just make something that handles all of the rest of indieauth stuff so that one can get a simple passport.s / omniauth-like flow where in the end one just gets a token and doesn't have to care about how one arrived there
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aaronpk like as an ios library?
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voxpelli such libraries will probably be needed to get regular apps on board with micropub as many developers thinks regular OAuth dancing is hard enough
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voxpelli yeah
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aaronpk gotcha. yeah that'd be great to have as a library
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aaronpk also the new safari view controller thing helps a lot, since it opens a real safari window inside the app instaed of popping you out of the app
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voxpelli finally OAuth on iOS (and Android who will get the same) can be considered secure :P
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Jeena yeah I hated it that every app just showed my their own webview which they controlled instead of using safar/firefox/chrome
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kevinmarks.com edited /Webmention (+205) "/* Why is the target URL a required parameter */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Webmention (+0) "/* Why is the target URL a required parameter */ typo" (view diff)
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paultibbetts.uk edited /WordPress/Examples (-71) "/* Other independents using it on their primary site */ Paul Tibbetts new domain" (view diff)
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grant.codes edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+281) "/* Creators */ Add Grant Richmond" (view diff)
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grant.codes edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+2) "Update attendee numbers" (view diff)
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tantek fellow HWC organizers aaronpk, kylewm, benwerd, snarfed, GWG in looking at the current page, https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club I feel like URLs & RSVP could be combined into one section, RSVP - what do you think?
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benwerd +1 to that
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 day, 3 hours ago: what do you think about adding person-tagging support to photo posts in Known? I think that plus supporting salmentions would upgrade Known to be able to play player A's role in https://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0#implementation_requirements http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-14/line/1436900658124
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 27 minutes ago: note comments markup updated slightly with u-comment instead of p-comment, see https://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_markup for update and reasons! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-15/line/1436982278421
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doe http://janastu.org/technoscience/images/b/bc/Onur-example-20150530.png
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tantek (was about to post a reminder for all HWC meetsup tonight, thinking to link to the "RSVP" and realized it misses out on the chance to Indie or FB RSVP
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aaronpk agreed
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tantek )
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tantek that diagram is crazysauce
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tantek every relationship is just labeled "annotation"
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tantek not a useful use of that term
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tantek if you can s/annotation/hyperlink and not lose any meaning, then your use of "annotation" had no meaning to begin with
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benwerd Least cute cat-based Internet example ever :/
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tantek benwerd - time to add cats to fatberg?
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KartikPrabhu should get to getting likes/reposts working with marginalia :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu++ yes!
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KartikPrabhu after hfeed2atom is in some shape
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 101 karma
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tantek thanks benwerd & aaronpk, here goes nothing
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benwerd tantek: catberg
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benwerd (they deserve their own monolithic standard)
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tantek benwerd, sounds like catbert
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KartikPrabhu wow in that diagram everything is actually just a mention even without hyperlinks :|
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benwerd it could be an annotation on catbert
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tantek likes making flat lists (or "collections" heh) of different kinds of things, it really annoys the data modelers.
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KartikPrabhu Feedly jus told me it is making a "collection" UI
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KartikPrabhu opt-in to try it
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csarven tantek s/mention/hyperlink ;)
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tantek csarven, pretty much
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KartikPrabhu mention is a hyperlink
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tantek KartikPrabhu: are all hyperlinks mentions?
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tantek is mention merely a synonym?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: sure why not. that is how I treat them if I receive a webmention. if just hyperlink no additional markup then yes
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tantek csarven, have you been following all the W3C Annotations stuff?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: agreed, I think that's reasonable
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tantek could easily see "Other links to this page" as alternative copy to "Other mentions"
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tantek I think "mention" is just shorthand for that
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes
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KartikPrabhu I was thinking of having a "related articles" list if the mention is a long article... but not gotten to that yet
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csarven Kilicdaroglu, what a last name..
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csarven is looking at doe's PNG
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csarven tantek re: w3c annotations, only the data model.
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tantek csarven - how about the use-cases?
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csarven the protocol "feels" a bit overkill.. I don' tknow
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tantek yeah
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club () "(-846) collapse URLs section with RSVPs for simplicity" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd, aaronpk ^^^ please review: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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csarven tantek No, I haven't looked at the UCs yet. What I do know is along the lines of what you said, it casts a wide net on what can be an annotation.
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tantek csarven, reminds me of "cards" and how everything is (or can be?) a card
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aaronpk looks nice
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csarven Having said that, this http://www.w3.org/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg which you've probably seen is a brief walk-through.
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benwerd tantek: looks way better to me. I wonder if there's scope to collapse the URLs into links, so that it's just the RSVPs and a compressed link to the indie event / facebook rather than bullets. But this is excellent
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tantek benwerd thank you as yes absolutely feel free to further iterate and improve it!
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tantek s/as yes/and yes
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Loqi tantek meant to say: benwerd thank you and yes absolutely feel free to further iterate and improve it!
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csarven opens up his notebook -- yes the paper/pen thing.
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@t Reminder: HWC #IndieWeb meetup SF+Portland TONIGHT! 17:30 writing hour 18:30 chat & hack night https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club#RSVP (ttk.me t4cB1) (twitter.com/_/status/621446934604214273)
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tantek paper++
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tantek pen++
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Loqi paper has 2 karma
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Loqi pen has 1 karma
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sparverius ++++
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csarven I classify annotations/comments/mark/highlight/*note (footnote, marginal, endnotes..) to have high overlap.
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csarven citations/blockquote/q/anchors are somewhat related to annotations but are sufficiently different.
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tantek awaits csarven's Venn diagram ;)
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KartikPrabhu csarven: that is fine as a concept until you try to implement a UI for them
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csarven KartikPrabhu That is exactly what I'm doing! :)
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KartikPrabhu good
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csarven Will find out in due time.. like I said, this is something I sketched in my notebook while wondering around..
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tantek csarven you may be interested in: http://indiewebcamp.com/quotation#Instead_use
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csarven Thanks for the pointer.
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csarven I think in my case, it will mostly be for small snippets.
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csarven (if not all cases come to think of it)
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tantek small snippets are a good place to start. I hear you can build a whole multimillion user platform on small snippets. ;)
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csarven Standard scholarly articles.
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csarven hah
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csarven considers standardizing on 10 chars max.
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tantek ^^^ self-violation of consideration. ;)
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csarven Took me a second to get that!
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tantek I am kinda curious what the say 90th percentile of IRC statement length is.
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csarven That'd be cool. Cluster around type of channels.
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csarven Tech, social, news..
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aaronpk has lots of IRC logs to grep
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csarven Correlate with average age and language
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csarven tantek Not from OA but from DPUB: http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-annotation-uc/
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csarven "in coordination with the oA"
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csarven Can't go through that now. Insufficient brain cells for today.
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csarven I'm constantly logged out of IWC.com, is it just me?
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aaronpk there's a preference in your user page
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Preferences
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csarven Thanks
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tantek FAQ?
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tantek goes back to benwerd's design feedback.
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club (+35) "/* RSVP */ try some link compression with SF as the test case (we're good at that)" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd, here's a first attempt at following your suggestion, what do you think? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club#San_Francisco
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tantek (left Portland the way it was so you could compare)
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benwerd +1 from here - looks much easier to read for me
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tantek great! completing design transition...
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-07-15-homebrew-website-club (+41) "/* RSVP */ Portland link compression" (view diff)
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tantek ... design transition completed.
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tantek gRegorLove: heads-up, major structural changes in the sections / headings of today's HWC as compared to before - may want to reset your clone base to it.
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tantek have also dropped all commented out locations, and we can add them back in as needed.
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kylewm tantek: do you want (or want me) to update 07-29 too? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club
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tantek kylewm: go for it - thank you!
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gRegorLove Sure, I'll use the latest version if I set up more HWC pages. If others want to, though, that's cool. I'm a bit out of the HWC loop :)
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kylewm.com edited /events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (+174) "/* RSVP */ update to NWO" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club () "(-538) /* URLs */ collapse URLs section into RSVPs" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: you know all your help with the wiki is appreciated. Saw you got a bunch of the Etherpads archived as well - and thank you for updating the /2015/Schedule to point to all the sessions / archives!
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tantek gRegorLove++
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Loqi gRegorLove has 18 karma
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gRegorLove glad to
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gRegorLove Appeals to some administrative thing in me that likes to organize stuff, heh
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tantek you're definitely among friends in that respect too :)
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tantek speaking of dates (ref: earlier conversation about talks being given, video *recorded* date, video *published* date), I'm now having a challenge with my music re: dates
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tantek as another data point on this created vs. published problem
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gRegorLove Hmm, not the best sign if the Western Washing University ACM subdomain doesn't resolve (linked from the CS page). I was thinking about reaching out to see if there's any interest there for a Bellingham HWC
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tantek iTunes comes with a "90's music" 'smart' playlist, so of course I created a similar "80's music" 'smart' playlist and that's where my trouble started.
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tantek I have a CD Single of New Order's Bizarre Love Triangle that I've ripped, and it says "year:1994"
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gRegorLove Sure it didn't start when you downloaded iTunes? ;)
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tantek of course that's wrong, the song (and that specific version of it) was released in 1987
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tantek gRegorLove: I don't think I ever downloaded iTunes - it was always bundled with the OS
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tantek er, s/1987/1986
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tantek this is of course distinguished by Discogs: http://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Bizarre-Love-Triangle/release/2560539
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tantek Release date (1994) vs. Copyright (1986).
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tantek so now, as gRegorLove put it, that "thing in me that likes to organize stuff", is having difficulty dealing with this incongruity, especially when there is only one "Year" field in iTunes, and *obviously* Bizarre Love Triangle belongs in the "80's music" smart playlist, not in the "90's music" smart playlist.
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gRegorLove I used and contributed to musicbrainz.org for meta data when I was ripping music more regularly
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tantek to tie this into something we talked about at IWC PDX, I can see publishing parts of my music collection this way (everything but the actual audio), and thus how should I do so?
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gRegorLove They have some free tagging software too that thumbprints mp3s and can be used to update the mp3 metadata
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tantek especially if I had scripts to convert to/from iTunes (I think Chloe was working on that part)
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tantek (wow way too much apophenia here, must have been that TCHO chocolate I just had)
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gRegorLove Yeah, I was really impressed by Chloe's page with her listening history (I think that's what it was?)
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tantek gRegorLove: yes, listening history, and extensive personal tagging system she had for I think seasons, moods, etc.
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gRegorLove Think iTunes library stuff is in XML, so I'll leave that to someone else. :)
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tantek gRegorLove: it's a good question whether to scrape / sneak the XML underneath iTunes or to attempt to use the AppleScript "API" to access it.
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tantek would love to (eventually, not an urgent itch) to come up with a way to post an indie mix tape (and yes I know all the prior XSPF art in this area).
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tantek heck, even post indie web versions of the mix tapes I actually made in the 1980s.
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tantek with full scan of the custom labels I printed of course
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tantek is anyone posting indie web mix tapes?
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gRegorLove Or something like https://libre.fm/
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tantek ok, back to the original Released vs Copyright date
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tantek I think I have an answer
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aaronpk released sounds like "published" to me
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tantek in this case it's more like "republished"
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gRegorLove I shared a zip file of a mix I made years ago, though the zip wasn't self-hosted. One of those free upload sites.
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tantek as it was originally published in 1986 (though on 12" - which I also have)
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gRegorLove http://gregorlove.com/2007/11/happy-living-day-mix/
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tantek gRegorLove++ awesome
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gRegorLove (still rather proud of that mix, and I'm overdue to make another)
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tantek yes that post of yours is exactly what I'm talking about - all the info about the tracks
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gRegorLove obviously, do so only at your own copyright risk, heh
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tantek but without direct hosting of the music
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tantek what is a jam?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "jam" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=jam&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-15%2Fline%2F1437004444176
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tantek hmm - apparently I didn't document that
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tantek is a play list just a specific kind of /collection?
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tantek mix tape = play list etc.
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tantek although a collection implies everything in it has its own permalink, whereas a play list might not (e.g. gRegorLove's example)
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tantek popping the stack back to I think I have an answer
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tantek back when I used a HyperCard stack to catalog all my music, I would also only keep one year - but I specifically labeled that year "Copyright", because, that's what was actually *printed* on the CD (or other medium).
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tantek capturing the visible data as it were
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tantek thus I'm going to treat the iTunes "Year" field as Copyright as well
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tantek and move the "Released" date into the Notes field.