#indiewebcamp 2015-08-23

2015-08-23 UTC
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@kelflanagan RT @windley: Internet Identity Workshop early bird pricing ends today. http://mailchimp.com/about/mcsv/ #iiw #indieweb #vrm #blockchain http://t.co/D… (twitter.com/_/status/635245502800396288)
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EGreg hey all
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EGreg First time here! Anyone from NYC?
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snarfed EGreg: GWG is!
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mblaney I got sending webmentions from posts working today. Sorry for all the tests I sent to your site aaronpk!
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[aaronpk] Haha no problem. Was that you that just sent me this? https://unicyclic.com/mal/2015-08-23-Webmentions
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mblaney yes that was me :-)
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@MatthewDiIulio Posting this front the #IndieWeb. (twitter.com/_/status/635304428279611392)
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GWG EGreg: Looking for New Yorkers?
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EGreg yup
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EGreg What kind of stuff are you guys working on?
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EGreg I wrote this two years ago: http://qbix.com/blog/index.php/2013/04/a-new-kind-of-platform/
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GWG EGreg: Well, what do you know about Indiewebcamp so far? Just to figure out where to start the explanation?
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GWG I keep working on Indieweb tools for WordPress. You have people doing all sorts of things though.
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@osvik Why the independent web matters? It gives you control and longevity for your content http://www.digitalactivist.net/articles/why-the-independent-web-matters/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/635328165511098368)
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EGreg I'm back
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EGreg I don't know much about Indiewebcamp
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EGreg My company's been working on a platform to decentralize social networking
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EGreg Basically to do to Facebook.com and Google Plus what Wordpress did to Blogger and LiveJournal.
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EGreg I feel like various things are slowly being decentralized. Bitcoin decentralized money. The web and email were always decentralized. But social is still centralized. That's why GitHub for example is centralized even though git is distributed.
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EGreg I realize that indiewebcamp is about open standards, and I'm hoping that after our platform is past version 1.0, we can document our REST API so that others can interoperate with it.
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KevinMarks that's not so much an open standards as what we wold call a monoculture
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KevinMarks what is monoculture?
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Loqi Monoculture refers to the antipattern of one piece of software dominating (or trying to dominate) its field, often by being limited to communicating with other instances of the same codebase https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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GWG EGreg: The methods we are developing are with the goal they would work the same on any platform.
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EGreg Yes, I read your website
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EGreg A standard is often ignored unless there is a large reference implementation.
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GWG EGreg: Known
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EGreg The reference implementation could end up as a monoculture, or it could temporarily be a monoculture until a standard is published that's compatible with its API.
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GWG But, in general, I can talk to KevinMarks site, for example, without knowing anything about how he implemented things.
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EGreg But, the reference implementation must take off in order for the standard to matter. And in that time, it is likely to have a giant head start on competing products. So, I think almost every new standard starts as a monoculture at first.
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EGreg Right, implementation details should not matter beyond whatever is documented in the API.
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GWG Indiewebcamp, interestingly, didn't start that way. The standards are developed collaboratively
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GWG So, someone came up with, for example, Micropub.
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GWG The standard is in the wiki
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EGreg Okay, but where are the implementations of the standards?
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GWG Lots of edits going on.
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GWG Also noted in same
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GWG What is Micropub?
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Loqi Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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GWG The page has dozens of examples of people using it
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GWG We try to keep up to date on who supports what thing we discuss here
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EGreg When it comes to something big, it's hard to just write a standard first, and then an implementation. Usually, a particular product takes off as a first generation, and a standard is then based around it, such as XMPP based on AIM/ICQ/MSN
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EGreg Well at least, I can tell you from our experience... we spent 4 years building http://platform.qbix.com ... and we are still refactoring it until we reach Version 1. So, if we had to write a standard on day 1, we'd be way off :(
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KartikPrabhu EGreg: you miss understand. indieweb standards are developed and iterated along with implementations.
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EGreg We plan to make it interoperable later, and support several protocols. But, first we had to make it popular and funded.
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EGreg OK, so we have an implementation, now what standards should we help develop with indieweb?
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GWG EGreg: You can start with the ones we have already that are worth trying.
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KartikPrabhu also implementations exist on multiple different sites using multiple programming languages, CMSs, etc...
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GWG EGreg: What do you want to do though? I think if you look, you'll see some of the goals each of us has had that has brought us to develop what we have.
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GWG On that note, must excuse myself. Sleep needed
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GWG Will be happy to pick this up.
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EGreg Sure. Good night :)
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Loqi night
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KartikPrabhu EGreg: do you use this "Q-system" on your own site?
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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EGreg Oh, I see you guys are browsing the site
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EGreg I was wondering what was going on in those logs :)
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EGreg Yes we use this Q platform everywhere in our own products :)
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KartikPrabhu No I mean on your own personal website
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Zegnat Good morning :)
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Zegnat Anyone working on something exciting today?
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rhiaro Morning Zegnat. Checkins! You?
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Zegnat Working on the GUI for my webmentions endpoint
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rhiaro Nice
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Zegnat rhiaro: are you planning to add locations to every post / note?
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rhiaro Zegnat: No. I currently sometimes store lat/lon from Quill but don't display it. Might do at some point, but that's not what I'm doing at the moment. Sometimes I add an explicit *named* location to a post (like a city, rather than coordinates) and sometimes I add a named vague location (like "home")
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rhiaro I'm working on tidying all that up and visualising them, as well as having a 'currently at' and/or 'last spotted'
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rhiaro But posts with lat/lon don't qualify as 'checkins'; posts with explicit named locations more so
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rhiaro I think I have a blog post about this..
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rhiaro http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/05/checkins
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Zegnat Interesting take. I am thinking of a similar way, except I do want to display my location on everything. But at the same time there are privacy concerns with that
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voxpelli Good morning! Will probably work more on the curlability of my WebMentions comments presentation today :)
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Loqi voxpelli: colintedford left you a message 2 days, 11 hours ago: I stubbed /issue-tracker . Haven't captured your brainstorming there yet. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-20/line/1440113389545
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Jeena I have to work on my Events
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voxpelli Oh, right, I should do that as well :P
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Zegnat what is curlability?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "curlability" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/101z
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voxpelli mentioned on http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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voxpelli curlability is the notion of content being available in plain HTML, without the need to run any javascript. If you can't curl it, it's not on the web. Refers to the CLI-tool "curl".
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loqi.me created /curlability (+208) "prompted by Zegnat https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440328675231 and dfn added by voxpelli" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Zegnat voxpelli++ that sounded a lot better than the dfn I was writing
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Loqi voxpelli has 38 karma
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kodfabrik.se edited /IndieMark (+4) "link to curlability page" (view diff)
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Zegnat Hm, I should probably work on getting SSL as well
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myfreeweb I've released microformats2-parser (Haskell) v1.0.0 https://unrelenting.technology/mf2/ should be compatible with all the things now
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Zegnat what are all the things?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "all the things" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1020
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Zegnat All the things are, literally, all the things.
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Zegnat Darn Loqi, you let me down :(
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Zegnat myfreeweb: can you get it added to http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Parsers and http://microformats.org/wiki/parser ? :)
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myfreeweb it's there already
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myfreeweb (on microformats2#Parsers)
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myfreeweb why is the list of parsers duplicated on two wiki pages?
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Zegnat Don’t know why. /parser says that /microformats2 is the main list, but I imagine a lot of people end up on /parser first (like I just did)
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voxpelli Curlable mentions lists: Done: https://webmention.herokuapp.com/api/mentions?site=voxpelli.com&format=html
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aaronpk good morning
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GWG Good morning, aaronpk
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GWG !tell acegiak How do you feel about jam vs listen?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk i thought they were different things
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GWG aaronpk: I'm still confused about that.
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GWG One is an active post to share a song you have listened to, the other is a passive post to share what you are listening to. Seems not worth a distinction.
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GWG But I may be missing things
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aaronpk that seems accurate
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aaronpk seems like more of a distinction in how it's displayed/shared rather than any sort of format difference
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aaronpk i've never used thisismyjam before
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GWG aaronpk: Neither did I. Also not a scrobbler. That's why I wanted to bring in acegiak, who is big on sharing.
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GWG Since my arm is feeling better, I'm back to trying to do a little website work, by continuing my refinement of the Post Kinds plugin. I want to finish because this version is the one compatible with Micropub.
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GWG Thus the jam question
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@hertling If you support EFF & an open internet, check out IndieWeb, a movement to take ownership of data & web back from big corporations. #Sasquan (twitter.com/_/status/635520613331832832)
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snarfed !tell gRegorLove,GWG
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snarfed hrm. let's try that again
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GWG I'm here
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GWG What do you want to tell me?
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snarfed !tell gRegorLove,GWG,jgarber,diplix,wirres,aaronpk,ben_thatmustbeme,kylewm just added an FB API workaround to bridgy that may send you more FB responses on old posts of yours. curious if you see any within the next day or so. enjoy!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@ArthurSmid RT @hertling: If you support EFF & an open internet, check out IndieWeb, a movement to take ownership of data & web back from big corporati… (twitter.com/_/status/635524678195396609)
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snarfed !tell acegiak,pfefferle hey guys! semantic-linkbacks isn't finding author pictures any more for me. :/ e.g. https://snarfed.org/2015-08-20_15271 not sure if it's wordpress 4.3 or new semantic-linkbacks changes or both. any ideas?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed !tell acegiak,pfefferle (i'm on pfefferle's fork)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG snarfed: Have you made any other changes to viewing avatars?
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Loqi GWG: snarfed left you a message 1 hour, 21 minutes ago: just added an FB API workaround to bridgy that may send you more FB responses on old posts of yours. curious if you see any within the next day or so. enjoy! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440355381370
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KartikPrabhu Loqi messages?
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[snarfed] GWG: huh. great hunch! i was about to say no... but you're right, they're gone on older posts too. so probably a css bug. thanks!
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GWG snarfed, I submitted some patches after WordPress 4.2 that changed the avatar behavior to be better, but lost backward compatibility. Are you up to date on version?
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[snarfed] GWG: in pfefferle's fork, yes
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GWG snarfed I meant are you running WordPress 4.3?
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[snarfed] ah. yes
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GWG When you look at the comment, does it have the URL for the right picture?
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[snarfed] not sure. haven't debugged much, and can't now, but i will soon
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GWG Tell me if you need anyone to bounce ideas off.
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 8/21 at 9:38pm: file deletion request: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-21#t1440217293265 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-21/line/1440218303202
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aaronpk good evening!
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Loqi aaronpk: snarfed left you a message 3 hours, 8 minutes ago: just added an FB API workaround to bridgy that may send you more FB responses on old posts of yours. curious if you see any within the next day or so. enjoy! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440355381370
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aaronpk woohoo
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aaronpk interesting side effect of using microformats as my storage, is that I have to have at least an experimental/vendor-specific microformats representation of everything
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:untapped-permalink-aaronpk.png]]""
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tantek aaronpk - same here!
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aaronparecki.com edited /Untappd (+169) "add screenshot" (view diff)
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tantek though I usually end-up brainstorming about such features openly on the wiki before / while coding them
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aaronpk so now, instead of rapidly making progress on my new site, I have to figure out a good representation of food posts
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tantek and can iterate on the design publicly instead of picking a random site-specific format
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aaronpk the problem i'm facing right now is if I don't figure *all these things* out right now, launching my new site will be a significant regression
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tantek I think that's ok for major site re-writes
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aaronpk I want to find a way to not be blocked on launching it though
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tantek because the problem with "figure all these things out right now" is that that set is every growing
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tantek and you fall ever behind with such "big" tasks
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aaronpk so maybe I should accept a regression on any "features" that I am not confident of the implementation of
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tantek start with making sure everything has an acceptable "plain text" rendering, then iterate publicly from there
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tantek that doesn't require lots of storage modeling at all
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aaronpk that's fine as long as I have a clear path to turn the plaintext version into the better modeled version in the future
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tantek take screenshots of your existing special post presentations and upload them to the wiki for each of those special post types
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tantek treat your "old" site as just another legacy site to document for research purposes
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tantek and then rebuild your new one without any shackles of needing to do the exact same thing
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tantek you don't need a "clear path"
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tantek that's my point
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tantek the stuff to make sure works in a transition: permalinks, human visible content (even it downgraded to just a plain text version)
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aaronpk i guess the specific thing i'm struggling with now is I show different icons for food/drink based on what it is, with fallback for food and drink specifically
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tantek everything else you can rebuild incrementally
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aaronpk when I enter things on teacup, I distinguish between eat and drink
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aaronpk so how do I capture that in my new storage when I don't have a mf2 vocab for it
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tantek step 1: screenshot and upload how you show different icons for food/drink based on what it is, with fallback for food and drink specifically
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tantek step 2: ship without those icons at first
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aaronpk i'm fine not *showing* the icons at first, but if I don't store them somehow then I lose that data
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tantek how are you storing it now?
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aaronpk extra properties on h-entry
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aaronpk well, effectively
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:untapped-list-view-aaronpk.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /Untappd (+60) (view diff)
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aaronpk so i could store that as a p3k-* property on the h-entry in my new storage and just ignore it for now, with the intent of changing that to whatever better solution i have in the future
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aaronpk and the text would just be the content of the post, so I don't need to store that separately, and then it will just display as a regular text post for now
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aaronpk that seems like a reasonable path forward for now
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tantek right
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[snarfed] !tell acegiak,pfefferle,GWG never mind, false alarm. css bug on my part. maybe due to changed classes
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG tantek: Can you weigh in, as a jammer, on Scrobble/Listen vs. Jam?
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Loqi GWG: [snarfed] left you a message 5 minutes ago: never mind, false alarm. css bug on my part. maybe due to changed classes http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440368377063
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KevinMarks scrobble/listen is passive; jam is active
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mblaney hi all. I'm going to work on adding in-repy-to to my webmentions today.
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tantek mblaney that's great! Does that mean you're posting /reply posts already?
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tantek GWG, jam vs. scrobble/listen is totally different from a poster's/author's point of view
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tantek as KevinMarks said, the biggest difference is active vs passive listening
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tantek however, even if I just chose to listen to a track on my iTunes or iPod or whatever, and then listened to it, that's still "just" a listen
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tantek posting a track as your "jam" means it's not just a track you've listened to recently or are listening to, but has some significance to you at that point in time, perhaps something you might even note in the text content of the jam.
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mblaney tantek: no I was reading about in-reply-to and realised I need to add the concept of replying to my posts to do that.
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mblaney shouldn't be too hard though.
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tantek mblaney do you @-reply to people on Twitter?
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tantek GWG, want to add that question and answer as an FAQ to /jam ?
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tantek (assuming the answer made sense to you, if not, keeep asking questions and I'll try to keep clarifying the difference)
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mblaney no I don't do much of anything :-) started working through indiewebify.me this weekend, and that is the extent of my experience so far.
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tantek mblaney that's great - so you don't use Twitter at all and thus have no legacy to deal with there?
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mblaney no I use twitter but that's further down my list of priorities.
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mblaney I figured since you guys came up with the indiewebify levels they were the most important features to add.
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tantek they are in general, as folks have implemented features on their own sites
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tantek from what I recall however is that if you do use Twitter, then POSSEing your notes to Twitter is more important than getting replies to work (in terms of IndieMark)
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tantek i.e. POSSEing your notes (e.g. to Twitter, since that's the notes silo you use) is Level 2 https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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tantek whereas replies and sending webmentions is Level 3
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mblaney oops maybe I'm looking at the wrong levels then :-) I'll go back over that list first,
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tantek definitely feel free to ask questions if any of it is not obvious!
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next is 26th" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+30) "next hwc locations" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+24) "nbsp" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+92) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ comment out edinburgh to re-use it later" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club (+133) "regrets for current venues, but I'll be in Seattle/Redmond" (view diff)
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tantek !tell kylewm looks like I'm missing the next HWC too - could you setup a venue for SF for https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club ? Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mblaney the IndieMark page is much more detailed than indiewebify.me... I don't have a concept of post types in my software so need to have a think about that.
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tantek mblaney what are the types of posts you like to post most often? notes, replies, likes/favorites, blog posts / articles with names, bookmarks? etc.
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tantek (anywhere, on your own site or silos)
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mblaney blog posts, but if I could mark a post as a reply while I was writing it I would.
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tantek do you write your own blog posts more often? or do you @-reply to people on Twitter more often?
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loqi.me created /publics (+231) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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mblaney I mostly use twitter for reading, so would probably write my own posts more often than @-replies
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tantek ok cool. then /note and /article posts are a good place to start for multiple post types!
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mblaney that's where I'm not sure what the difference would be, in my posting interface titles are optional, so articles and notes are treated the same.
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tantek.com edited /publics (+455) "linky, articles, see also" (view diff)
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tantek mblaney the presence of an explicit article name is just one difference between articles and notes
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tantek here are some analyses of this: http://indiewebcamp.com/Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction
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mblaney thanks for the link tantek, I understand there are differences, I just wonder if I need to make it explicit.
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mblaney I think I might try working on the next step (syndication), and see what type of trouble I hit not having explicit post types.
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GWG "Follow Ben Werdmüller, Kyle Mahan and President Obama on Twitter!" - the juxtapositioning amuses me.
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tantek mblaney: that makes sense
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tantek GWG, that sounds screenshotworthy :)
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GWG I'm trying to figure out continuing to add Post Kinds to the post kind plugin, and to when it becomes too much
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tantek as long as you start with a (very) small set of post kinds for the default install, and allow users to "install" additional kinds (even if that's just enabling them in preferences with checkboxes), that's probably ok
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GWG tantek: I just changed it to a select box, with Article, Reply, Note, and Photo being defalt
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tantek also - I'd advise *only* shipping new post kinds in the plugin that you yourself are using on at least a weekly basis, and thus have a good "feel" for how they work
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GWG I'm also hiding the 5 I haven't built yet.
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tantek e.g. don't bother with adding a "jam" post kind until you find yourself posting jams
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GWG But I set 'reserved' terms for.
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tantek sounds reasonable
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GWG The last time I posted something that I'd define as a Jam, I did it as a Like
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tantek URL?
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/23/many/
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snarfed is now working on scraping google+ with a cookie, just like facebook
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tantek hmm... I realized I wrote a note as a post on Instagram and I'm thinking of manually PESOSing it to my site.
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aaronpk tantek: you need to get micropub working so you get those automatically with ownyourgram :)
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GWG snarfed: I have a loaded question for you. I want to write on the wiki why to use and not to use the Post Kinds plugin. Because it is by no means the only/best solution. Any thoughts?
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tantek I have a feeling getting ownyourgram and micropub working will greatly alter my IG usage (likley increase it)
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aaronpk while I still post less than you, I feel like it has done that for me
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tantek GWG, I think that kind of upfront documentation is very helpful
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tantek aaronpk: you post fewer what? photos?
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snarfed GWG: no thoughts, sorry, mostly since i don't use it myself
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aaronpk increase how much I use instagram
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tantek GWG, hey that "like" https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/23/many/ is much more like a review!
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tantek It would be a "jam" if that's really what you felt like at the time.
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GWG tantek: That song is one I play at that time of year.
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GWG I find it very emotional.
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tantek GWG, that definitely sounds like a jam then
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GWG I have Listen in Post Kinds, but not Jams
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tantek yes, you get it! that's the essence of a jam. it has some stronger-than-usual personal emotional impact
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GWG snarfed: That was why I asked. I thought you'd have a good case.
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tantek GWG, add it: https://indiewebcamp.com/jam#IndieWeb_Examples
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GWG Shouldn't I reclassify it first?
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tantek no, capture the example first
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tantek we've done things like group as prototype before I think
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tantek for other post types
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tantek let me check checkin
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tantek hmm - since your post has everything in it to constitute a jam, you should just add it, and make a note that when posted, you didn't know of the concept of jam so posted it as a like
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tantek that's also a reasonable fallback
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tantek jam -> like that is
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david.shanske.com edited /jam (+137) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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GWG I've been setting up 'hidden features' of late. For example, because of aaronpk I've decided to have 'hidden' Teacup support.
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GWG Basically, if it comes in on Micropub, I'll write the display code, but no local Post UI right now