#indiewebcamp 2015-09-01

2015-09-01 UTC
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tantek
fascinating how the new Twitter replies threading / "View other replies" hiding/progressive disclosure can be used to alter the default appearance of dialog on a tweet. E.g. see this https://twitter.com/t/status/638501941698514944 by replying to the first reply, I caused other replies to it to be hidden by default.
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@t
Enjoyed Tomorrowland on flights to&from Paris. Better than critics/ratings. Perspective shifted http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1964418/ (ttk.me t4cy4)
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Loqi
[mention] Arief Rahman Hakim liked a post that linked to a photo: "Content-Security-Policy" https://indiewebcamp.com/Content-Security-Policy https://webmention.io/notification/Vc0Pj9UGXxnl9rmoFKzuJQ
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kylewm
tantek: have you written about whether or not you should show a reply-context on your h-feed? (that is, i'm curious why you don't)
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tantek
kylewm: I don't think I've written about it no, however I think reply-contexts inline in a stream (especially composite stream) would add too much clutter/noise vs. value
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tantek
what is a composite stream?
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Loqi
A composite stream is a stream that interleaves multiple types of posts, such as notes and articles https://indiewebcamp.com/composite_stream
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kylewm
I think I agree w/r/t your design (other designs that have more space, like Known's, I think it is fine) ... it's just another area where I lose a bit of fidelity by dealing with the h-feed instead of fetching each individual h-entry in Woodwind
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kylewm
but that's fine, i'm still ok with the tradeoff
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tantek
no fidelity is lost - the /reply-context is cache/presentation anyway
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tantek
you have the in-reply-to in the h-entry that you can retrieve if you want to show a reply-context yourself on a permalink in Woodwind
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kylewm
right, I made the trade off early on to just fetch h-feeds, and not pull down each individual permalink
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tantek
oh - I get it - I'm not putting the in-reply-to link/URL in the h-entry posts in my h-feed at all
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tantek
so you don't even have the choice to display them or not
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kylewm
oh sorry, right that's what i mean
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tantek
hmm - I suppose a very abbreviated reply-context could make sense in a composite stream, as another visual cue to distinguish reply posts and other notes
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tantek
clever question. will have to think about this and see if I can come up with a good design iteration.
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kylewm
:) either way you go is fine with me, I think it looks nice now on your site, and there's no confusion about which posts are replies
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tantek
kylewm - current distinction is a bit subtle - and requires that I start replies with "@-name" references which is suboptimal - too Twitter-centric a design.
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aaronpk
I find that some sort of indication that a post is in-reply-to is helpful
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aaronpk
i've started by showing a small line with just the in-reply-to URL as a reply context
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tantek
I'm thinking of maybe even just leading with a reply icon
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tantek
that's linked to the in-reply-to
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tantek
for the in-stream view
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aaronpk
I don't think I want the full reply context in a stream view tho
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Loqi
gives aaronpk the full reply context in a stream view tho
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tantek
I'm thinking *only* the icon, inline. not on its own line
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tantek
that way I'd have both a small visual cue to more clearly indicate replies (independent of starting with @-name), and it could link with in-reply-to so h-feed readers would see that information too
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kylewm
I'm surprised not to find a unicode arrow like that
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kylewm
↰ maybe...
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tantek
or maybe ↪
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tantek
because it makes sense that the arrow would point towards the reply
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tantek
whereas that Twitter icon is meant to indicate the action of you replying
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kylewm
that is always an issue with these... not making it look like your post *is* the reply context
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GWG
kylewm: I had that problem multiple times.
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tantek
note how the ↪ arrows point *to* the replies
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tantek
ok that's it then
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GWG
That reminds me. I have a breakthrough in the WordPress microformats work.
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tantek
oooh! please share!
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GWG
The next WordPress default theme is Twenty-sixteen, currently under development
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GWG
They, because of some seeds I planted, have already made two mods, and I'm trying to slip in more.
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GWG
1. They are going to correctly use hfeed.
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GWG
2. hentry will not be used as a styling element.
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GWG
That means their original microformats implementation will be better.
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tantek
GWG, classic hfeed hentry or mf2 h-feed h-entry, or both?
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GWG
And pfefferle's wordpress-uf2 plugin, which tries to add microformats2 as a plugin will actually not break the style.
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GWG
classic hfeed hentry
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GWG
My goal is to make enough modifications to the theme that we can add the rest by plugin
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GWG
So, one step
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tantek
so this will fix their use of classic hfeed hentry so that it can be plugin upgraded to use mf2 h-feed h-entry ?
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GWG
Yes
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tantek
GWG++ !!!
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Loqi
GWG has 116 karma
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GWG
But only on the default theme.
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GWG
Still a place to start
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aaronpk
progress!!
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Loqi
GWG has 117 karma
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kylewm
GWG++
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Loqi
GWG has 118 karma
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+866) "/* improve replies details */ show icon reply-context in-stream, thanks to prompting with good questions from kylewm"
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GWG
I feel like I'm trying to build a swimming pool with a table spoon, but...
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+246) "/* show icon reply-context in-stream */ note example of microformats wiki class="discussion" nested list items that also use an icon shaped like ↪ to indicate reply posts"
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tantek.com
created /↪ (+19) "r"
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kylewm
GWG: it's like politics, you don't have any control over anything except you can occasionally, through subterfuge, turn people a tiny bit one direction or the other
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aaronpk
it actually is politics, lol
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gRegorLove
Hmm, so when bridgy is sending webmentions 'upstream' in a thread of notes, how are people handling processing those? My current logic is failing because the wm sent upstream to A doesn't have A's URL in it.
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GWG
hates politics
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aaronpk
bridgy fakes it by including the upstream URLs in the u-url property iirc
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gRegorLove
GWG++ baby steps
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Loqi
GWG has 119 karma
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tantek
oh dear that doesn't sound good (faking it with u-url)
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aaronpk
that's the only reason twitter threads appear on my notes, i don't have any special handling for more than one reply
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gRegorLove
No, it doesn't appear to do that.
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aaronpk
tantek: oh I agree, but that's an intentional "feature" of bridgy. also it has benefit me even if I don't believe it's technically the correct thing to do
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gRegorLove
Or at least, not currently (?)
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aaronpk
oh it doesn't set multiple, but it does set it for the upstream post
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tantek
maybe I'm just misunderstanding
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aaronpk
i replied to @jshardison's tweet which was in reply to mine, but bridgy shows my reply as a reply to my own first post
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tantek
originally-in-reply-to
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aaronpk
also afaik bridgy doesn't send a webmention that wouldn't validate
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gRegorLove
I'm only seeing one in-reply-to in that bridgy mf2
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aaronpk
are you sure you didn't get two separate webmentions for that?
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gRegorLove
I'm referring to the example links we both linked. Which part is the faking it you're referring to?
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kylewm
gRegorLove: I would've expected bridgy to send one webmention, to http://gregorlove.com/2015/08/indiana_mama-yeah-ill-reply-today/, from that link you shared
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kylewm
is that not what happened?
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aaronpk
gRegorLove: see my description above
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aaronpk
compare the in-reply-to URL of the bridgy link vs what's actually on twitter
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gRegorLove
kylewm: Yeah, it was sent there. That note of mine is in a long reply-chain, so the wm was also sent upstream to my earlier notes. The latter is where my process fails.
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gRegorLove
And I'm sure it's my process, not bridgy, to be clear.
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aaronpk
i think ben_thatmustbeme is actually handling reply chains for reals
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kylewm
oh are you sending salmentions to yourself?
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gRegorLove
Bridgy sends upstream
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aaronpk
i really don't think bridgy sends webmentions that have an invalid link
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aaronpk
when bridgy sends webmentions upstream it sets the in-reply-to url as the original post
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kylewm
gRegorLove: did it send a different proxy of the same tweet upstream?
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gRegorLove
Looking through a lot of unprocessed bridgy links, just a moment
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kylewm
i'm just not really understanding the issue, maybe take to github?
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kylewm
bridgy shouldn't be sending two webmentions for that tweet at all, definitely not upstream
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tantek
oooh! I'm going to test my new explicit whitespace markup + Bridgy Publish to FB
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tantek
IT WORKED!
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gRegorLove
I don't want to open a bridgy issue to find it's something silly on my end. :) I was pretty sure it was, though checking my received logs, I'm seeing three distinct bridgy wms within a few seconds.
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gRegorLove
So I dunno
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gRegorLove
double checks my syndication links
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Loqi
[mention] Alex Jordan liked a post that linked to a photo: "Content-Security-Policy" https://indiewebcamp.com/Content-Security-Policy https://webmention.io/notification/cHQoscUUtbFSawkjHljeBw
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Loqi
[mention] Alex Jordan reposted a post that linked to a photo: "Content-Security-Policy" https://indiewebcamp.com/Content-Security-Policy https://webmention.io/notification/TTCTAJ2-lAOCaCQmJDyPLQ
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[snarfed]
i haven't dug into this bridgy q yet, but there's background in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/217
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Loqi
[snarfed]: tantek left you a message 1 day, 1 hour ago: skimmed OPD proposals, thinking seems pretty sound. Maybe drop 24h restriction for original posts found through existing algorithm (since those have bidirectional links incl rel-syndication link back to POSSE copy) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-30/line/1440979520024
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[snarfed]
(if i understand the q right)
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[snarfed]
huh, cool that tells work even for slack
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[snarfed]
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 951 karma
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tantek
odd that FB doesn't show /link-previews in posts from Bridgy Publish
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kylewm
gRegorLove: looking at the logs, I do see it sending those 3 wms that you saw
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kylewm
reading through the issue snarfed linked, i'm not sure if that's the expected behavior or not anymore :/
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gRegorLove
It's a low priority for me. I just thought something was wrong in my processing.
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gRegorLove
I posted a gh issue
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kylewm
thanks gRegorLove
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kylewm
it's possible it's been sending out a bunch of upstream wm's (on purpose) that we've all just been quietly ignoring and you're the first to notice :)
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aaronpk
i suppose that is possible. I normally glance at my raw webmention logs but there is *so much* pingback spam that it likely dwarfs any invalid webmentions from bridgy
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gRegorLove
I've known it sends upstream wm, but haven't had issues processing them until today
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gRegorLove
Here's a recent one where my own reply was sent upstream and processed OK: http://gregorlove.com/2015/08/looking-forward-to-ericagrows-and/
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gRegorLove
I actually like the upstream ones since I'm not yet (usually) sending wm to myself, and thus needing to de-duplicate the bridgy upstream from my own :)
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acegiak
Jeena: did you get a webmention from me for this post: https://jeena.net/comments/433
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Loqi
acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: How do you feel about jam vs listen? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440351240746
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Loqi
acegiak: snarfed left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: hey guys! semantic-linkbacks isn't finding author pictures any more for me. :/ e.g. https://snarfed.org/2015-08-20_15271 not sure if it's wordpress 4.3 or new semantic-linkbacks changes or both. any ideas? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440358650205
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Loqi
acegiak: snarfed left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: (i'm on pfefferle's fork) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440358658777
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Loqi
acegiak: [snarfed] left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: never mind, false alarm. css bug on my part. maybe due to changed classes http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440368377063
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Loqi
acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 day, 2 hours ago: New somewhat stable version of Post Kinds http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-30/line/1440980232222
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GWG
Sorry about the flood there
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KartikPrabhu
!tell tantek: completely mystified by Feedly's handling of your Atom XML titles. Sometimes the XML shows and other times not. Can't find the pattern in your source either
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks
KartikPrabhu: feedly may be doing guessing about whether to escape titles or not, because of RSS
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: the thing is all titles are markedup similarly, can't find a pattern of when it escapes.
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KevinMarks
won't be markup will be contents
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KevinMarks
hm, that isn't escaped right
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: what isn't escaped?
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KevinMarks
the feed examples
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acegiak
GWG: all cool, lol
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GWG
acegiak: You know I try to keep you posted. I worry about creating problems on your site.
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KartikPrabhu
oh I see something to do with what chars are in the content
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KevinMarks
"The RSS 2.0 specification states that may contain HTML, but there is no way for consumers to programmatically distinguish HTML from plain text (especially text that talks about markup). In other words, the content model for RSS 2.0 is Here's something that might be HTML. Or maybe not. I can't tell you, and you can't guess."
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+309) "/* Silo Examples */"
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (-1) "/* Facebook */"
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KevinMarks
it's actually quite hard to find people you don't have mutual friends with on FB
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+259) "/* Twitter hovercard fields*/"
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+514) "/* Facebook */"
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: hmm not really. tantek found me somehow
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+309) "/* Google plus */"
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kevinmarks.com
edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:2015-08-31-facebook-hovercard-example-non-friend.png]]": Reverted to version as of 05:56, 1 September 2015"
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KevinMarks
hm, changing fiels is b0rked
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+4) "/* Facebook */"
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KevinMarks
any more hovercards people like?
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KevinMarks
gmail has remearkably blank ones
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KevinMarks
or maybe people i get emails from don't use gmail
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KevinMarks
thee wordpress ones mentioned seem to have vanished
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+292) "/* Google Plus */"
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KevinMarks
youtube has them
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KevinMarks
is getting docuemtning happy
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KevinMarks
breaking links for me again
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kevinmarks.com
edited /site-deaths (+390) "/* Upcoming google drive */"
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+261) "/* YouTube */"
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Loqi
[bridgy] Tom replied '@t @dougturner And, they already tamper your page, some others ISP tampers cookies, I'll not be surprised to see them tamper CSP headers' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Content-Security-Policy#Why_bother_if_attacker_can_hack_CSP_too (https://twitter.com/kermiite/status/638618046018527232)
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Loqi
[bridgy] Tom replied '@t @dougturner They don't have to modify your CSP: most CSP allows 'self', they can just inject a script '/att_ads.js' and catch the request' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Content-Security-Policy#Why_bother_if_attacker_can_hack_CSP_too (https://twitter.com/kermiite/status/638617749367951360)
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Jeena
|!tell acegiak hm yeah I got it according to the logs, but it doesn't show up, i'm not sure why yet, thanks for the manual mention, I'll look into it
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acegiak
Jeena, let me know if it's an issue with my markup
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Jeena
ah no, it's most probably a problem in my routing stuff
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KevinMarks
what is banner image?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "banner image" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102F
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KevinMarks
banner image is a wide image 2:1 to 4:1 displayed as a backdrop at the top of a profile page. There is currently no agreed indieweb way of marking one up.
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loqi.me
created /banner_image (+181) "prompted by KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-01/line/1441095433942 and dfn added by KevinMarks"
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Jeena
acegiak, now it works https://jeena.net/comments/433 I didn't process stuff for the /comments url
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Jeena
I wonder how many webmentions failed because of that, perhaps I should send me an email when that happens
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petermolnar
good morning, indieweb
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KevinMarks
morning peter
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kevinmarks.com
edited /hovercard (+800) "Common Denominators"
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acegiak
Jeena, do you send salmentions when comments get added to your site?
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Jeena
hm no I don't but perhaps I should?
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acegiak
Jeena: Salmentions are one of my favourite things :P
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GWG
acegiak: How is the salmentions code working?
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GWG
pfefferle: I seem to see you everywhere
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GWG
pfefferle: How do you mark up microformats on your individual posts?
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pfefferle
GWG what do you mean by "individual posts"?
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GWG
replies, likes, etc.
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GWG
I wanted to outline my Post Kinds plugin and the alternatives on the wiki.
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GWG
I keep trying to figure out why someone would use my code.
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pfefferle
GWG ah ok, I doesn't really post likes and replies yet, because I don't want to post them on my homepage...
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myfreeweb
wow https://twitter.com/stopsatgreen/status/638650195400527872 the silos' love for pushing their native mobile apps truly has no limits
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GWG
pfefferle: I really should add that feature. Hide on main page
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pfefferle
GWG sure... it is too noisy
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@glennjones
Just backed https://t.co/xaUXpy1SGY hope the project makes it to its target #indieweb
(twtr.io/13NgtF0mz7j)
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ben_thatmustbeme
pops his head in
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ben_thatmustbeme
someone said my name earlier
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: I'm not handling reply chains yet. on my to do list when i get free time, i'm doing reply-context chains. so i'm going back not forward
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@jkphl
@elfpavlik Nice! Thanks for pinging! Will see if I can make it. +@indiewebcamp @GETDcent @DTNConf @decentcamp
(twtr.io/13NmC_o7VzU)
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@benwerd
Interesting: PayPal introduce a personal URL that lets people pay you. Your own domain maybe not far away? http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/01/paypal-launches-paypal-me-a-simpler-way-to-request-money-using-your-own-personalized-url/ #indieweb
(twtr.io/13NmPiAdqJf)
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[snarfed]
pfefferle GWG: just FYI i use https://wordpress.org/plugins/ultimate-category-excluder/ to hide my replies/likes/reposts from the front page, search, etc
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pfefferle
snarfed nice, thanks!
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aaronpk
myfreeweb: wow that's a great writeup
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tantek
kylewm you said you were working on a generic Micropub Firefox sharing thing (like the one for Known but for any micropub enabled site) - how's that going? or what state did it end up in?
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Loqi
tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 12 hours, 52 minutes ago: completely mystified by Feedly's handling of your Atom XML titles. Sometimes the XML shows and other times not. Can't find the pattern in your source either http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-31/line/1441078004444
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tantek
pinging you again about this because check this out: https://activations-dev.allizom.org/en-US/diaspora.html
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tantek
especially the screenshot of the UI
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tantek
if there can be such an "activation" for Diaspora in general, surely we can submit one for Micropub in general
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tantek
ooh I can edit FB posts that were cross-posted from Twitter now!
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tantek
interesting change - they used to not be editable (and I'd remarked that here in the channel maybe in the past few weeks)
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cleverdevil
hrm... brid.gy is failing to send notifications to my Known site on https...
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tantek
however FB fails to update the /link-preview when you edit the post
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cleverdevil
works fine on http :_
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tantek
even if you delete the link that originally caused the /link-preview!
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tantek
alright, how do I get Bridgy Publish to post a *photo* to FB?
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tantek
a-ha u-photo
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tantek
hmm... may have to hack up something to make "pretend" photo posts
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tantek
though if a note starts with a photo embed, and is marked up as a u-photo, it's pretty much a photo post right?
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tantek
seems to be backing himself into supporting photo posts
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KevinMarks
I expanded /hovercard a lot last night - thoughts on the common denominators analysis?
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tantek
I think I'm going to hack /photo posts by upgrading any /note posts that start with an image URL into a photo post, and if the next thing after whitespace is also a hyperlink, going to treat that as the "original" of where the photo is hosted/posted
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tantek
well that itch came out of nowhere
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tantek
and sadly, motivated by POSSE appearance in FB
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: Considered having webaction-buttons for following within the hovercards?
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tantek
voxpelli++
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Loqi
voxpelli has 45 karma
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KevinMarks
I did mention that - I couldn't see them defined yet
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voxpelli
would be a good fit for a first place to support them at
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KevinMarks
the other obvious missing piece (apart from a friends graph, which is hard) is /banner_image - is anyone indie publishing those?
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aaronpk
ha i just realized i actually do have a banner image on my site, but never thought of it that way
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tantek
KevinMarks: I just noticed that FB hovercards of companies/schools (e.g. on someone's profile) do NOT have banner image
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: friends-graph as in X follows Y and Z which you also follow?
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tantek
you may want to look at those simpler hovercards to start with
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tantek
(serioulsy, design for without the banner image nonsense, a simpler design is always better to start with)
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voxpelli
a simpler alternative to banner image is theme color of whatever it is that the new feature both Chrome and next version of Safari supports
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voxpelli
s/of whatever/or whatever/
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Loqi
voxpelli meant to say: a simpler alternative to banner image is theme color or whatever it is that the new feature both Chrome and next version of Safari supports
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tantek
hmm - the most convenient place to do this is inside auto_link
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: see the theme color that eg. Embed.ly uses: http://embed.ly/code?url=http%3A%2F%2Fflattr.com%2F (probably extracted from the favicon)
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tantek
since it already has image URL detection logic and markup
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tantek
hmm... going to have to add a parameter to auto_link for this. not the cleanest solution, but perhaps most expedient
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KevinMarks
if you want to add those examples to /hovercard tantek, go for it
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KevinMarks
your fb one doesn't have a banner either
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tantek
briefly considers upgrading u-video and u-audio posts
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tantek
KevinMarks: I have never set a banner on my FB account. deliberately
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tantek
suddenly realizes this is going to switch a bunch of his old note posts to photo posts and is a little concerned by that.
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aaronpk
is that bad?
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tantek
change is scary :)
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voxpelli
is pondering how to import N:th levels of salmentions in a sensible way in his PostgreSQL database and fights the urge to move to a graph database instead
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tantek
aaronpk I guess we'll find out what breaks?
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rhiaro
voxpelli: go schema freeee
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rhiaro
It's so liberating
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rhiaro
oh yeah, that
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tantek
rhiaro: in two days?
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tantek
is it happening?
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voxpelli
rhiaro: I'm schema free – using Postgres JSON-columns :)
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rhiaro
oh right
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rhiaro
tantek: yeah
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rhiaro
I'll wiki it
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voxpelli
rhiaro: no real good way of fetching all mentions through JOIN:s though – would need something like a graph-database then
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voxpelli
guess same would be true for classic NoSQL-solutions like Mongo and Redis
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rhiaro
yeah, I have really enjoyed having a graph database
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rhiaro
Except when it breaks for no reason, but that's my setup, not graph databases in general
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rhiaro
And it only ever breaks on localhost, hasn't on the server yet, I can't figure out what's up
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tantek
aaronpk: also - I think I'm about to implement this tantek.com/w/Markdown#Hyperlinkedimages as part of this u-photo upgrading of notes
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tantek
but for any URL URL.png not just the first use
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voxpelli
rhiaro: I use Neo4j in relspider and like it – but it's quite a more exotic dependency that limits the use and participation of others quite severely :/ Just depending on Postgres means it's quite simple to host
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tantek
yup, auto_link + auto_space is turning into a Markdown replacement
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rhiaro
voxpelli: I use a MySQL database that is secretly a triplestore, running on standard shared hosting
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rhiaro
So uh, probably not quite what you're after
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rhiaro.co.uk
created /events/2015-09-03-homebrew-website-club (+2098) "Created page with "<div class="h-event vevent"> = <span class="p-name summary">Homebrew Website Club Meetup</span> = == Details == === When === <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">...""
(view diff)
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tantek
waits for rhiaro to follow the steps in http://indiewebcamp.com/Events#How_To_Add_An_Event
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voxpelli
tantek: Malmö will skip the next HWC and be back the time after that :)
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aaronpk
almost time to get Loqi to update the topic automatically from /events
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rhiaro
tbrb camerongray moredhel anm kongaloosh R2ZER0_ ^ HWC
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Loqi
is done
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camerongray
I may have a work thing this Thursday, need to check
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rhiaro
camerongray: your priorities are misaligned.
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rhiaro
Tell work you have an indieweb thing.
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camerongray
:D
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tantek
voxpelli: maybe we should keep Malmö noted in the Where section in https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club#Where but just put the comment about "skip the next HWC and be back the time after that " ?
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tantek
just so people know about the continuity
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tantek
what do you think?
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rhiaro
tbrb: I didn't accidentally sign you up this time, you can do it yourself :)
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voxpelli
tantek: sounds good :)
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tantek
local u-photo upgrading of note post appears to be working
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tantek
going to postpone implementing tantek.com/w/Markdown#Hyperlinkedimages since it's not strictly necessary for this use case
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rhiaro
tantek: could you update the wiki side menu to say Edinburgh?
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tantek
just one moment, deploying note->photo post upgrading hack...
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rhiaro
no rush
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tantek
now to see if Bridgy Publish sees it
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tantek
it does. Now to see if it looks good on FB
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tantek
can't believe I backstepped into implementing hacked photo posts due to POSSE FB presentation concerns.
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tantek
do I need all those params?
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tantek
presto I have /photo posts
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gRegorLove
tantek++
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tantek
curious how that may impact readers. aaronpk does quill, or kylewm does woodwind do anything special with u-photo in h-entry?
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Loqi
tantek has 234 karma
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aaronpk
i believe monocle looks for the u-photo and displays it in the post
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tantek
but it's already in the post - how do you avoid displaying it twice?
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aaronpk
good question
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aaronpk
ah, it only displays the u-photo property if the URL is not present in the content
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aaronpk
same is true for audio and video URLs
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tantek
ok so you won't see any change in Quill presentation of my photo posts then since they're always in the content
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aaronpk
Monocle
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tantek
sorry yes - a-ha that indicates I should eat something
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tantek.com
edited /photo (+1203) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ apparently I have photo posts now."
(view diff)
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tantek
now I'm wondering if I should use webaction fallbacks for IG or FB for my photo posts
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tantek
realizes that "photo posts" was not even a documented itch on his wiki page.
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voxpelli
how do one distinguish between a parsed u-* property and a parsed p-* property? Check if the parsed value looks like a url? eg. p-comment vs u-comment
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tantek
rather, what should matter is, is it a URL or not?
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tantek
not, did it come from a u-* or p-* in the source
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tantek
whether it came from a u-* or p-* is *irrelevant*
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voxpelli
My Salmention strategy was supposed to be: Find the URL of all included comments and parse all those URL:s to find the full metadata. But: This likely will rarely work for Brid.gy posts
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tantek
of course I had a number of "working on" items that did things with photo-like notes, so apparently I'd already conceptualized them as "photo posts" in my head even though I hadn't captured marking them up as such.
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voxpelli
As received Brid.gy posts are often marked up expose the silo URL rather than the marked up Brid.gy URL
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voxpelli
aaronpk: ideas on how to handle Brid.gy + Salmentions? Saw that you neither expose the actual Brid.gy URL in your comment markup
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aaronpk
oh hmm, I hadn't thought about that
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aaronpk
I suppose I could add an invisible u-url to the comment
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voxpelli
but then there would be two u-url:s – that becomes tricky as well :P
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voxpelli
then I would probably only fetch the first one and consider that to be the most correct one
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voxpelli
but for non-robots it's the least correct one :P
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aaronpk
hm, I would have to go dive back into this stuff to help more. can't really picture it right now.
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voxpelli
Brid.gy could help by auto-redirecting non-robots to the correct location perhaps
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aaronpk
huh, interesting idea
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tantek.com
edited /posts (+151) "/* Kinds of Posts */ more indie sites support /photo posts than /checkin now"
(view diff)
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tantek
going to let that cassis.js change simmer for a while on my own site before I commit its changes to github
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voxpelli
aaronpk: just to be sure – typically Salmentions will be parsing the original comment URL for metadata rather than the comment presentation – right? otherwise it would be no issue
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aaronpk
I don't know if "typically" is the right word, but certainly some would
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aaronpk
for example, in our readers, kylewm chose to only parse what's on the h-feed page, whereas I fetch each post permalink and use what's on the page
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tantek
both are reasonable reader techniques
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aaronpk
i would expect a similar thing to happen for salmention handling
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voxpelli
the difference would be that what's on an h-feed is most often from a single source while comments are from external sources and can thus be spoofed
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tantek
indeed
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tantek
next logical step for my /photo posts would be to auto-POSSE *photo* posts in particular to FB, or perhaps https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_note_with_photos_to_Twitter
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tantek
is anyone else besides Jeena actually POSSEing their photos to Twitter?
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tantek
maybe adactio?
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aaronpk
I do sometimes, either manually or with bridgy publish
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aaronpk
s/with/manually with
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: I do sometimes, either manually or manually with bridgy publish
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tantek
could you add yourself with when you first started doing so to the IndieWeb Examples: subsection there? https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_note_with_photos_to_Twitter
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tantek
yup, adactio is doing it
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aaronpk
interesting, looks like I actually mostly post screenshots on twitter rather than photos
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tantek
aaronpk: oh hey I found this one (actual photo), POSSEd with img to Twitter! http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/3/iiw-indieweb
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tantek
looks like adactio started doing that about a month after you! https://adactio.com/notes/7021
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aaronpk
i think that's the first!
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Twitter (+147) "/* POSSE note with photos to Twitter */"
(view diff)
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Jeena
design, design, a kingdom for a designer who would make my website nice to look at and easy to use!
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snarfed
design++
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Loqi
design has 1 karma
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tantek
design++
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Loqi
design has 2 karma
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Jeena
I'm adding a header image to my events and I'd like the title to be on top of this image, but then it is almost impossible to make it pop out so it's easy to read on any background. Right now I have it like this https://jeena.net/s/latest.png but as you can see it's rather difficult to see on the white shirt of this woman in the background
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tantek
also needs to study how others are handling presenting photos that are Instagram --PESOS--> indie --POSSE--> FB
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aaronpk
hm now i'm wondering if I can break out the monocle feed fetching and parsing into Lambda tasks
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aaronpk
the Node.js mf2 parser is pretty solid right?
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Jeena
λ-tasks
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tantek
aaronpk: it may be the most up to date now, including implementations of all the resolved issues and brainstorms
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tantek
glennjones++ has been doing a great job
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Loqi
glennjones has 11 karma
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tantek
does Bridgy Publish support POSSEing *photo* posts to Twitter? snarfed, kylewm (unclear from the docs at https://www.brid.gy/about#picture it that's only supported for FB, or Twitter too)
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aaronpk
yeah I do that sometimes
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tantek
what really? bridgy publish photos to Twitter?
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tantek
why only sometimes?
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aaronpk
i don't often want to post my photos on twitter
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tantek
different audience?
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snarfed
thank emmak for bridgy publish twitter photo support!
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tantek
in that case then I have to decide if I want to code that support into my existing Twitter POSSE code, or have a switch and use Bridgy for photo posts
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tantek
BTW - everyone noticed that Instagram now supports non-square photo posting right?
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tantek
It makes it much more appealing as a photo posting "client".
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aaronpk
oh yeah, haven't tried it yet tho
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tantek
it works really well
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aaronpk
huh I don't understand, does it just not fill in the top/sides with black now? I can't really tell what it's going to do with a photo that doesn't fill the frame
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tantek
you haven't seen other people posting?
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tantek
landscape: it shrinks the photo to fit horizontally, and then just happens to be shorter vertically
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aaronpk
you mean watching other people using their phones? no
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tantek
portrait: it just doesn't crop the photo, and it looks vertically longer
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tantek
no I mean viewing your followings stream in IG
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aaronpk
huh, right now when I load a photo in the app it snaps it to square, zooming in. it's not clear what happens when I "zoom out" on the photo
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tantek
tap the icon in the lower left corner of the photo with the < > arrows
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aaronpk
looks like everything in my feed is still square too
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tantek
no the photo I just posted is not square
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aaronpk
oh yeah! nearly square tho, not the normal landscape proportion i was expecting
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aaronpk
well I guess if I never knew Instagram used to force everything to be square, then this interface makes sense
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tantek
sure - I cropped it in IG to what I wanted
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Kongaloosh
rhiaro: can I be robot-kongaloosh again for the next HWC?
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tantek
that's the point, you now have the freedom to crop however you want
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aaronpk
that's much better
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rhiaro
Kongaloosh: you can be whatever you want to be, on the indieweb.
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tantek
hence it makes it a much nicer photo posting client in that regard (assuming you treat their server and /ownyourgram as part of the "client" ;) )
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KevinMarks
except the api still pads to square, so pestagram doesn't see it
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Kongaloosh
I'm so ready.
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aaronpk
yeah! that was always annoying for me, i would sometimes use an app to add bars on the top/bottom but then would go and replace the photo that ownyourgram sent to my site
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tantek
exactly! and yeah I deleted two apps when they added non-square photo support. :)
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tantek
KevinMarks, what would it take for pestagram to do original post discovery? ;)
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tantek
"original" :)
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tantek
in fact this is probably a good question for readers in general,
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tantek
how to discover an indie photo from an instagram photo that was (possibly) posted via /ownyourgram
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aaronpk
this is the same thing bridgy has to do
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tantek
readers, reply-contexts etc. could all use that to prefer the indie photo
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tantek
hmm - wondering if this algorithm needs to be renamed / expanded to indie post discovery
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tantek
and made to work with both POSSE and PESOS models
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tantek
so that no matter how the content got to your personal site, other consuming code would prefer the copy on your site, not any silo copy
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aaronpk
I don't think the distinction is necessary
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aaronpk
"indie post discovery" vs "original post discovery"
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aaronpk
the fact that I use ownyourgram to get the photo from instagram to my site is plumbing
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aaronpk
looking at the photo on my site it appears as though I posse'd to instagram, which is the intent
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tantek
two things: 1. "original post" should still mean something (and we should still keep pushing to POSSE over PESOS as much as possible.
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tantek
2. "indie post discovery" puts the emphasis on indie, which helps make it clear that indieweb posts are preferred over silos posts in general
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tantek
wonders when snarfed is going to use a cookie hack to post comments on IG ;)
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tantek
(via Bridgy)
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snarfed
speaking of original post discovery, apologies if this is already in your queues, but aaronpk tantek KevinMarks kylewm KartikPrabhu: i think we have a tentative plan for revamping bridgy's behavior for handling POSSE vs non POSSE posts and responses: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/51#issuecomment-136792750
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snarfed
mind reviewing when you get a chance?
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snarfed
and heh tantek. thanks for the vote of confidence w/cookies!
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tantek
snarfed++ for Bridgy Publish photos to Facebook support, especially using/depending-on u-photo in the source, thus "forcing" me to add support for explicit "photo" posts on my site!
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Loqi
snarfed has 134 karma
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snarfed1
aww thanks!
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snarfed1
i definitely don't plan to pollute bridgy with cookie support. it'll make silos *very* unhappy, so i want to compartmentalize that ire
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snarfed1
plus i comment on IG maybe once a month or so
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tantek
ah right, you're using cookies for all the feed reading stuff right?
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tantek
passive use of cookies
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tantek
not active posting
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snarfed1
right
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snarfed1
but regardless, very very not kosher
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tantek
less frowned upon (detectable?) for passive reading
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snarfed1
nah. cookies aren't really compartmentalized by capability
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snarfed1
in general, once i have it, i can do anything i want as you
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cleverdevil
so, who is the person who does most of the work on bridgy?
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cleverdevil
would love to get help troubleshooting an issue.
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KartikPrabhu
that would be snarfed and kylewm
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@jordan_web
@mattgemmell Have you looked at the indieweb opensource solution @withknown, up to 200 people per site, https://withknown.com/opensource/
(twtr.io/13PDyu7ipUY)
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cleverdevil
cool, thanks KartikPrabhu.
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snarfed1
cleverdevil: ssl woes?
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cleverdevil
I may be doing something dumb, of course :)
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snarfed1
whee
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cleverdevil
I am happy to provide examples, if needed!
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snarfed
sorry, back. i hate irc.
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cleverdevil
heh, no worries.
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snarfed
bridgy has no bugs. must be your hardware!
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snarfed
(kidding!)
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snarfed
an example and description would be great
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cleverdevil
tl;dr - if I make a post on my Known site and it is detected by bridgy on Facebook or Twitter with an https:// URI, things fail.
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cleverdevil
if it uses http://, everything works.
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snarfed
got it, i'll look
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cleverdevil
actually, it says "failed" in bridgy but it looks like it worked :/
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cleverdevil
looks like it started working
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cleverdevil
so, maybe resolved :)
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snarfed
those urls differ by more than just ssl
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snarfed
first part of path is year vs facebook id
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cleverdevil
yeah, I just noticed that too... weird...
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snarfed
if you click on the X minutes ago link, the last line of the log shows the 400 from your site
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snarfed
so the q is where we get that url from
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snarfed
i don't see those urls there
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snarfed
short answer: recurring facebook bug :/
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snarfed
kylewm can commiserate with you
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cleverdevil
good to know.
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snarfed
cleverdevil: while you're here, any more interest in goodreads posse/backfeed?
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cleverdevil
yah, I'd *love* to get it working... been busy lately (house undergoing renovations, kids first day of school, work, etc.)
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snarfed
definitely understood
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cleverdevil
I did write an `h-review` focused Known plugin, tho
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snarfed
i saw!
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cleverdevil
been doing posts, as well.
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cleverdevil
I have some bugs (syndication doesn't work, for some reason)
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cleverdevil
I've noticed that the Known community is pretty small :)
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cleverdevil
not many devs working on it yet.
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cleverdevil
I'm working with my employer a bit (DreamHost) to see if we can get some attention shined on Known, though.
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snarfed
eh its community is at least medium sized
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snarfed
dozens of contributors, which is something
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cleverdevil
frankly, I'd like to see us get more involved in the IndieWeb in general!
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snarfed
but not wordpress sized, true
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snarfed
of course
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cleverdevil
yeah, I am not complaining, just trying to see how we can do more :)
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snarfed
dreamhost integration would be a huge bump
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cleverdevil
for context, DreamHost has over 700,000 installs of WordPress.
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cleverdevil
its in a whole other world.
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snarfed
definitely
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cleverdevil
but, I *really* like Known.
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cleverdevil
such a great foundation, and good idea.
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snarfed
honestly i think too many of us fall into the hole of building our own CMSes and never climb back out to work on *anything* else
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cleverdevil
hah, ironically that's exactly the situation I was in.
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snarfed
there are so many CMSes, including so many good ones, i could never justify making yet another just for myself
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cleverdevil
prepping to implement my own.
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snarfed
oh boy
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cleverdevil
then I realized: 1. I don't have the time and 2. it was necessary
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cleverdevil
I also discovered Known, which led me to IndieWeb as well.
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snarfed
cleverdevil++ glad to hearr it
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tantek
snarfed, I disagree with your assertion of "so many good ones". in fact, quite the contrary, nearly all of them suck at UI/UX compared to silos.
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KartikPrabhu
tbh CMS is what is making blogging harder than tweetering
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Loqi
cleverdevil has 4 karma
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cleverdevil
there are lots of CMSes for sure.
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tantek
the reason to write your own CMS is: 1. scratch your own itches, 2. make it as awesome / beautiful or more than any silo you currently use
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cleverdevil
not lots of good ones :)
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tantek
if you're not doing those two, then yes, stop writing your own CMS and use an existing one
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tantek
cleverdevil: I challenge you to provide examples of "good" CMSes, besides say /Known and /WordPress :)
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snarfed
tantek: those are all good pros. the con is the amount of duplicated effort you have to expend to get even a *barely* decent CMS, which could arguably be better spent working on tools that more people can use
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cleverdevil
tantek: I don't hate Ghost... ;)
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snarfed
CMS reuse does happen, but much less than tools like quill, bridgy, etc
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tantek
(and even WordPress is lacking in UI/UX, however it makes up a lot with community etc.)
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cleverdevil
tantek: and I like the idea of most of the static ones, too.
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KartikPrabhu
are static site generators considered CMSs?
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snarfed
i'm all for having lots of CMSes! i just think we lack other tools way worse than we lack CMSes (if we do at all)
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tantek
snarfed, ironically, a "barely decent" CMS may be exactly what more people can use - not these overdesigned behemoths that require nasty sysadmin work and have tons of regular security exploits
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cleverdevil
that's my issue.
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cleverdevil
I didn't want something mind-numbingly complex and overly "powerful."
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tantek
snarfed: as long as people are posting to silos *instead of* posting to their own site, we lack good CMSs
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KartikPrabhu
what is CMS?
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tantek
that's the measure
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snarfed
sure, point taken, but you know what i mean. barely decent meaning barely functional enough, not lightweight
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Loqi
A content management system (often abbreviated as CMS) is software used to create, enter, edit, update, delete content on a website, even on indieweb sites https://indiewebcamp.com/cms
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tantek
if your CMS isn't good enough to change your behavior to post to your own site first / instead of a silo, then your CMS is not good
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tantek
that's the bar
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snarfed
you're conflating sociology with product design
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KartikPrabhu
so if one uses micropub to create, edit, delete etc... does that make micropub a CMS?
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tantek
not at all! usability and desire are the essential points of product design!
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snarfed
sure, the majority of people use silos. i guarantee they didn't evaluate CMSes first and deliberately choose to use silos instead.
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tantek
snarfed: I'm talking about people who already have their own site
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tantek
and likely made some CMS choice in the past
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tantek
plenty of "old school" bloggers that tweet but fail to post notes on their own site
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tantek
no need to name names, because, nearly all of them are like that
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snarfed
sure. CMSes can definitely learn from modern silo UX. absolutely. still, imho it's often a better use of effort to join and improve an existing CMS like known than build your own from scratch
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tantek
that's a much better way of putting it
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: tantek: I don't think you are really disagreeing. Some people should build better CMS/tools for indieweb, but most can just contribute/re-use the,
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tantek
OTOH benwerd has expressed fear that people here would abandon their own CMS and just contribute to Known
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tantek
as in, he sees the value in diversity
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snarfed
of course!
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snarfed
i just think we're probably too far on that side of the spectrum
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tantek
I believe this was expressed when aaronpk threatened to use Known instead of p3k ;) (it was a while ago)
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snarfed
i expect most of the eng hours in this community are spent on CMSes with very small installed bases, many with just one user, and *way* fewer eng hours on tools that more people are actually *likely* to use
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tantek
snarfed: people here have built amazing things because they started with the freedom and low learningcurve of their own CMS
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snarfed
saddens me
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snarfed
yeah that's also a good point. if you deliberately use building your own CMS as a way to learn, or have fun, then sure
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tantek
I think if you're looking at installed base, you're focusing on the wrong priority
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aaronpk
my approach has been to build things into libraries that others can use
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snarfed
decoupling++
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aaronpk
for example Known is using one of my libraries!
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Loqi
decoupling has 1 karma
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tantek
yes, same here
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aaronpk
so hey I've contributed to Known too :)
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KartikPrabhu
decoupling++
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Loqi
decoupling has 2 karma
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tantek
I'm using Falcon both to develop what I want (without any of the baggage of other CMSs), and as a generator of useful utility functions for others to use
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tantek
snarfed: I say that more CMSs means more ways to rapidly iterate with UI
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tantek
and right now, catching up in UI/UX is the #1 thing we're behind on compared to silos
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snarfed
eh you can iterate on a CMS's UI whether or not you started it yourself
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tantek
supposedly, but we haven't seen a lot of evidence of that
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: errr not if the CMS is very bloated which is always the case
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tantek
witness how hard it's been for WordPress plugins to iterate on UI/UX
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tantek
as compared to all the random 1-3 user CMSs here
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snarfed
"WordPress is bloated" may be true, but is not an argument to build your own CMS
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tantek
it absolutely is. along with security target etc.
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tantek
and all the nonsense that GWG has had to hassle with in terms of where they put hfeed vs hentry class names etc.
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tantek
they don't even have proper theme / CMS engine separation
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KartikPrabhu
oh yeah that ^
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tantek
plus - speed
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cleverdevil
(afk on a call)
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KartikPrabhu
that is why I did not use Wordpress for my site
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[aaronpk]
Remember when you choose a CMS, you're not only choosing a technology, you're also choosing a community
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snarfed
this is so silly. sure, "WordPress is bad and slow," but that does not in any way imply "you have to build your own for it to be good"
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tantek
so yes, "bloat" is good enough reason to say no to an existing CMS
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tantek
it does in total. if all alternatives are bad and slow then yes you have to build your own to be good and fast.
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snarfed
aaronpk++ yes! that's the single biggest reason i chose WP. i wanted to leverage the millions of hrs other people had invested, not invest them myself
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Loqi
aaronpk has 952 karma
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tantek
snarfed, in GWG's case the WordPress "community" has been fighting his efforts to improve WordPress
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snarfed
tantek: you tend to feel very black and white about these things. i'm usually more shades of gray.
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aaronpk
ironically, I say that to point out the reason I *didn't* choose wordpress
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aaronpk
which GWG is demonstrating again exactly why I didn't
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tantek
snarfed, if these existing communities were going to actually focus on silo parity or outdoing silos, they would have
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tantek
that's my summary dismissal of your argument
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tantek
also, the existing "communities" around a single CMS tend to be /monoculture laden
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snarfed
again, i'm not just talking about the big CMSes, i'm talking about all of ours
#
tantek
ok that's a better point
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snarfed
i mostly want *us* to have more 5-10 user (and 2-3 developer!) CMSes instead of the status quo of one user/developer
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tantek
which gets back to needing to update /projects to make that more clear - what CMS options are there for active (re)use and contribution
#
tantek
that's a much more reasonable goal / assertion. small nimble teams.
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yes agreed on that part. Self-made sites tend to be stuck in an un-managed code rut
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snarfed
*teams* being the operative word
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aaronpk
I've seen other projects do a decent job of "recruiting" help, by making it clear what needs working on and what kind of skills are required
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aaronpk
afaik none of the 1-person CMSs here make it easy to contribute to them
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tantek
Redwind
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snarfed
yup. one of very few exceptions
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tantek
and of course without an updated /projects page it's hard to test such assertions "none of the 1-person CMSs", "one of very few exceptions" :/
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KartikPrabhu
should work on polishing some /Bundle stuff to make it open source
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 116 karma
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snarfed
another way to phrase this is the question i posed to tantek at the first HWC. we had this same debate (lightly), and he agreed not everyone should have to build their own CMS. "so if not, then the question is, how many do we want? dozens? hundreds? thousands?"
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tantek
pretty sure I said thousands
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tantek
along the line of, let a thousand CMSs bloom
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snarfed
sure. especially when there are millions/billions of indieweb users
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tantek
of course that's intended worldwide, across language, cultures etc.
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snarfed
the right number is probably a fraction though. so not thousands right now
#
tantek
snarfed, one good measure I watch are the # of micropub implementations
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snarfed
whatever the right fraction is, i think we have a higher fraction now than we ideally want
#
tantek
because that's an interesting bar of difficulty vs feature utility
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tantek
snarfed: have it open in a tab :)
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snarfed
i want to tackle it soon, but not until i get a few thumbs ups
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tantek
snarfed, here's a # for you - 18 micropub server implementations http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek
since I know you like metrics :)
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snarfed
so estimate as many as ~30 due to underreporting
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snarfed
and estimate, say, ~5k indieweb sites?
#
tantek
hmm perhaps that's a good place to start as far as reseeding /projects
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snarfed
so ~1:100 CMS:user ratio
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tantek
snarfed, do you count withknown.com as one site? or all subdomains?
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snarfed
users, not top level domains
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tantek
snarfed, sure, that mean isn't bad, but the median is bad
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tantek
(per your criteria)
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tantek
I wonder if Quill keeps aggregate stats on which CMSs are used how often
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snarfed
1:100 actually isn't bad. maybe that's good for me to keep in mind. we're the vocal/active minority here. the fraction of active users here who have their own CMS is more like 1:2, which is way different and doesn't represent all indieweb users.
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snarfed
that's comforting. good to remember.
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tantek
supporting your second user is a huge task
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tantek
and for most people, is not an itch, so it's not surprising that it's so low
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aaronpk
tantek: i'm not sure how i'd know which cms someone is using
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tantek
oh I bet you could use some heuristics on their home page ;)
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aaronpk
sounds like a lot of work
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tantek
oh dear, I just realized I can now person-tag the photo that I POSSEd to FB
#
tantek
is teetering on the edge of another massive rabbithole
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tantek
um, snarfed,kylewm does Bridgy Publish of photos (to FB or Twitter) support propagating person-tags into the POSSE copy?
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snarfed
nope, no person tag support
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snarfed
want to contribute it? happy to help you ramp up! :P
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tantek
then I'd have to come up with a way to person-tag my photo posts on my site, and then have Bridgy Publish parse that, and then we'd have to see if FB API even allowed specifying person-tags in a photo post
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kylewm
the FB API mostly doesn't support person tagging
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kylewm
I think the only thing you can tag are check-ins
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tantek
separately - does Bridgy Publish to FB do *updates* ? e.g. if I Bridgy Publish a permalink from my site to FB, and the permalink already has a u-syndication link to a FB post, is Bridgy Publish smart enough to recognize that and try to *update* the FB POSSE copy instead of creating a new POSSE copy?
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kylewm
I was at place X wtih so-and-so
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tantek
kylewm: why not here is photo X with so-and-so?
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tantek
is slipping into the rabbithole
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snarfed
tantek: no sorry no update support
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kylewm
snarfed points to the FB documentation as if it has any bearing on reality
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tantek
snarfed: does update support make sense to you? or too much complexity
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snarfed
no, be fair, i've found their docs about API calls to be pretty accurate
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tantek
Bridgy Publish -> Bridgy Edit
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snarfed
tantek: sure, update is straightforward
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snarfed
want to contribute it? happy to help you ramp up! :P
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tantek
wow ok I should file that as an issue at least to start
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tantek
Bridgy Publish POSSE CRUD
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kylewm
tantek: snarfed: more info here, although hopefully it is out of date and FB support is better now! http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#Mention_Tagging
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kylewm
snarfed: I generally find their API documentation to be really encouraging and then when I actually try to make calls, it returns little or no data
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snarfed
heh fair. eveything is modulo permissions, which are complicated
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tantek
does Bridgy Publish to FB support propagating location information from the original post to the FB POSSE copy?
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snarfed
fields for writes are a bit more straightforward
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tantek
like the location of a photograph?
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snarfed
tantek: not yet
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aaronpk
that seems not straightforward
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tantek
is coming up with feature requests faster than he can file issues
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aaronpk
how would you find the FB version of a venue?
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snarfed
yup that's the hard part
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aaronpk
the facebook venue database is *horrible*
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snarfed
tantek: they're all already there :P
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snarfed
feel free to search!
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tantek
unless your own /venue URLs already had venue equivalent URLs for Foursquare, FB etc.
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tantek
the Bridgy Publish could just look them up that way
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aaronpk
yeah that would work fine
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aaronpk
course then the challenge is making a non-insane UI for creating that original post
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tantek
oh dear, I really don't need to be implementing *another* post type today
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tantek
aaronpk: it's ok, I'm sticking with my insane "just add the markup" UI for now
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tantek
so that's not a challenge for me :P
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tantek
aaronpk - the short answer is - the UI for creating those venues on your own site is called: import your Foursquare and FB checkin history
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tantek
that should handle the 90% case
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cleverdevil
de-lurks.
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tantek
then there are new venues
#
tantek
and now we're talking about an interesting UI problem
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cleverdevil
as a web host, I would not love a world with thousands of CMSess :)
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cleverdevil
super hard to support!
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KartikPrabhu
there already are thousands of CMSs just not indieweb ones
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tantek
the world already has thousands, you're just not aware of them ;)
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tantek
(neither are any of us here I'd expect, I'm merely hypothesizing based on how often people scratch that itch)
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tantek
"dark CMSs"
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cleverdevil
I (personally) don't see a problem with a world with a dominant group of 3-5 CMSes, as long as they are the right ones.
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KartikPrabhu
"right" ones :P
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cleverdevil
with probably thousands of black hole CMSes filling the gaps.
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tantek
lol at both 3-5 and framing assumption of "the right"
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cleverdevil
its a fair LOL
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cleverdevil
there is no right and wrong
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cleverdevil
what I really mean is that there are only so many use cases, and I expect that a smaller number of CMSes will gather around those use cases
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cleverdevil
and just evolve into larger, more dominant user bases
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cleverdevil
which I don't have an issue with.
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tantek
to tag people in a FB post via their API, the post must also have a location according to https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/reference/v2.4/user/feed#pubfields "tags - Comma-separated list of user IDs of people tagged in this post. You cannot specify this field without also specifying a place."
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KartikPrabhu
not really. there are thousands of use-cases. Look at the repo of Wordpress plugins
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tantek
thus to propagate people-tags to a FB POSSE copy, you must first propagate location information
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cleverdevil
80% of people will be served just fine with those dominant CMSes
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cleverdevil
KartikPrabhu: yes, but WP is a single CMS that handles a *bunch* of use cases.
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aaronpk
did you know there's a wordpress plugin that turns wordpress into a full-blown library checkout system?
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tantek
thus you must have a way for Bridgy to find the location on POSSE destination
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KartikPrabhu
and hence has become bloated
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cleverdevil
aaronpk: there are WP plugins for damn near everything :)
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tantek
thus the straw proposal to use /venue posts with silo equivalent URLs
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snarfed
kylewm++ damn he called the people-tag checkin limitation. that's it, he's officially the lead bridgy maintainer now
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Loqi
kylewm has 227 karma
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snarfed
especially the facebook part :P
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aaronpk
hehehe
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tantek
snarfed: not quite, it could be that just "place" field is needed, not that it be a checkin post
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tantek
is trying to be optimistic
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tantek
despite knowing evidence to the contrary WRT FB API
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tantek
snarfed, coincidentally, kylewm is the only active person here who has posted venue posts http://indiewebcamp.com/venues#Kyle_Mahan
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tantek
I'm beginning to suspect he's already figured all this out.
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tantek
is a collection of venue posts just a subset of an address book?
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kylewm
hahaha
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kylewm
importantly i haven't ever possed a venue
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tantek
no need to because most venues on most silos already have a permalink - no need to duplicate
#
tantek
rather, discovering that silo venue permalink is the key
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kylewm
that's what i mean, sorry, i've not possed a check-in to a venue, only ever lat/long coordinates (to twitter)
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tantek
oh you haven't POSSEd checkins to Foursquare? many others have: http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin#IndieWeb_Examples
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kylewm
i've never used foursquare actually
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tantek
then no need
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aaronpk
is planning to PESOS from foursquare to avoid needing to build a checkin UI and because it's fun to see the feedback from foursquare
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tantek
that's another way to get venue permalinks from a silo
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tantek
ownyoursquare?
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tantek
uh oh what about Bridgy backfeed? does it support backfeeding of when people *on the silo* person-tag a photo post POSSE copy there?!?
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snarfed
sorry you lost me
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tantek
some on FB tags my photo FB POSSE copy with people in the photo
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tantek
s/some on/someone on
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: someone on FB tags my photo FB POSSE copy with people in the photo
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snarfed
you want it to backfeed the tags?
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tantek
I'd expect Bridgy to notice that, as it would a like or a comment on the photo FB POSSE copy, and post a tag-of response accordingly
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tantek
yes of course! backfeed all the responses!
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snarfed
ok. no, not yet.
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snarfed
man i really really want to see another backfeed implementation
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aaronpk
did someone come up with a name for a p3k one?
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snarfed
just to see what differences crop up
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: p3k does backfeeD?
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aaronpk
no no, like if I made a backfeed service for p3k
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aaronpk
definitely does not right now
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KartikPrabhu
how about backf3d :P
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snarfed
built into CMS is definitely the ideal way. avoids a lot of the hard parts. only drawback is it limits adoption.
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 117 karma
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aaronpk
i was thinking more along the lines of the theme of the rest of the p3k names but sure
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KartikPrabhu
what's the theme for rest of p3k names?
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KartikPrabhu
what is p3k?
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Loqi
pзk (pronounced "peek") is the name of the software that runs aaronparecki.com and indiewebcat.com https://indiewebcamp.com/p3k
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aaronpk
hmm that needs updating
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tantek
what is the p3k naming convention?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "p3k naming convention" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102G
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kylewm
common nouns that sound like they could be the name of an indie band or startup
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aaronpk
haha no
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kylewm
You guys going to the city to see Switchboard at The Quill tonight?
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tantek
more steampunky right?
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: no. will be hanging at the Monocole instead
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aaronpk
there you go
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KartikPrabhu
backfeed could be Telegram
#
aaronpk
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 118 karma
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tantek
or radar?
#
tantek
er, sonar?
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KartikPrabhu
Sonar can be sound/music thingie
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tantek
is this for POSSE or backfeed?
#
tantek
or do they need separate names for p3k?
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KartikPrabhu
IMO anything talking to a silo can be the same lib
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tantek
welcome back nitot !
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aaronpk
was just trying to come up with a name for my avatar archive service that's storing copies of avatars for webmention.io...
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aaronpk
.. thought to myself "oh hey! how about Face Book!"
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aaronpk
*headdesk*
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tantek
photobooth
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KartikPrabhu
but that maybe TM
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aaronpk
preferably pre-1900s tech
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snarfed
daguerreotype
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tantek
portrait
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snarfed
rolls off the tongue
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snarfed
and fingers
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tantek
portraits used to be painted - so that's pre-1900s :)
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aaronpk
i'm debating making it also archive full post content, but not sure if that's going to be a different service/component
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tantek
that would be "scribe" ;)
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KartikPrabhu
yup totally
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aaronpk
there we go
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aaronpk
now there is a place for them ^
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Jeena
Now my events index page is finally starting looking like something I would wanna link from the top navigation
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aaronpk
ooh nice
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KevinMarks
hacks on hovercard some more, realises how oddly nested everyone's h-* things are
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aaronpk
don't forget about people who have their h-cards on a different page ;-)
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tantek
it shouldn't matter how oddly nested everyone's h-* things are. what challenges are you finding beyond representative h-card?
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tantek
Jeena++ your events page ROCKS! \m/
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Loqi
Jeena has 23 karma
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Jeena
thanks :)
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KevinMarks
you putting your h-entry inside your h-feed inside your h-card
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KevinMarks
braces himself for rewriting this recursively
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tantek
KevinMarks: that has nothing to do with representative h-card :P
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KevinMarks
it has lots to do with trying to replicate silo hovercard ux
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cleverdevil
pretty cool, Jeena :)
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tantek
what does a plumbing complaint (putting ... inside ... markup) have to do with silo hovercard ux?!?
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jrenslin
how about going to the start page of the given website (So e.g. "http://example.com/post/1" -> "http://example.com") and searching for a representative h-card there?
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moredhel
thx rhiaro, I have added myself, see you thursday (if not before)
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tantek
and Jeena, thanks to you and benwerd we now have two examples of "events" pages, and nowhere to document them, because we already use /Events to mean an actual collection of events, not a page about "events" pages
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tantek
jrenslin: you don't need to go to "the start page", the /authorship algorithm already provides a way to go from a post permalink to an author's URL
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tantek
e.g. http://werd.io/content/events is definitely an events stream, shown in reverse chronological order of when the events were created
#
tantek
Jeena - what order are you displaying your events? It looks ordered by calendar date (soonest first) and then past events are most recent first
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aaronpk
has that too tho not as pretty as Jeena's http://aaronparecki.com/events
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Jeena
yes tantek exactly like that
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tantek
aaronpk: haha I looked for yours at http://aaronparecki.com/events/ but just got a 404 (note trailing slash) ;)
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aaronpk
my new site handles that better
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tantek
mumbles something about a trailing slash indicating a collection like a folder
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aaronpk
still doesn't believe in trailing slashes
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tantek
doesn't blame him.
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tantek
ok so three examples
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tantek
aaronpk: are yours ordered purely by most recent first?
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aaronpk
which also means if there's a far-future event it will be "stuck" to the top for a while
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tantek
aaronpk do you think of that page as a collection, an indiex, or a stream?
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aaronpk
currently I think of it as a stream just like http://aaronparecki.com/articles http://aaronparecki.com/notes etc
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aaronpk
however I am shifting that mindset towards thinking of it more as a collection
#
aaronpk
mostly due to the issues with post types
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tantek
right, the big distinction here is that AFAIK no one of the examples thinks of theirs as a 'calendar'
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aaronpk
for example, right now there is no way to see a stream of *all* my photos, only non-reply photos. that is one of the downsides of my current explicit post type architecture
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Jeena
I was thinking of implementing it like that but then the calendar would be mostly empty
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tantek
aaronpk yeah I just violated my shorthand post type characters by deploying photo posts as among the "t" posts
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aaronpk
so I am switching it so that everything is a collection, and posts can live in one or more collections. they wil be dominated by obvious post type, but there will definitely be some overlap
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tantek
Jeena: calendars SHOULD be mostly empty
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aaronpk
i think calendar views are rarely actually useful
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tantek
scheduling something every day is not actually healthy. the calendar UI causes people to do things (overschedule) that are not good for them.
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jrenslin.de
created /User:Jrenslin.de (+164) "Created user page"
(view diff)
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Jeena
sure but it kind of looks ugly
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aaronpk
most of the time it'll either be empty or too full
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aaronpk
calagator.org is an example of too many events per day to show in a calendar view, so they just use a list view
nitot joined the channel
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aaronpk
I have a calendar view of all my archives, which I think is kind of fun, but not a practical way to actually browse things http://aaronparecki.com/2015/08
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Jeena
I like it too but not for events
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Jeena
but as a compact overview of things done it is really nice
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cleverdevil
blurgh, now my SSL bridgy fails are happening on twitter too :P
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kylewm
cleverdevil: your webmention endpoint is replying to the POST with 400 "The target page https://cleverdevil.io/2015/my-boy-at-the-beach does not exist."
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cleverdevil
I saw that... but it does exist :)
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cleverdevil
maybe a bug in Known?
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kylewm
sounds like a bug or misconfiguration, yeah
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kylewm
i notice that bridgy is using the http endpoint, http://cleverdevil.io/webmention/
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kylewm
wonder if Known keys off that
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cleverdevil
could be... says its cached.
#
cleverdevil
can we clear the cache and do a retry?
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cleverdevil
maybe it'll use the https one.
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kylewm
has gotten myself in trouble messing with bridgy's datastore before
#
kylewm
trying to delete just that one key... snarfed forgive me
#
kylewm
retry?
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cleverdevil
clicking...
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@benwerd
Today's lesson: if libraries would take X-Forwarded-Proto into account when detecting HTTPS, that would be just dandy.
(twtr.io/13EkFFgf7k4)
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aaronpk
sounds like Known only accepts https target when sent to the https webmention endpoint?
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benwerd
goes to check the code, but that shouldn't be the case
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cleverdevil
might be something about how I've got my Known instance setup.
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benwerd
kylewm: I think that's probably right. Or at least, stripping off the URI scheme when we do the check.
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benwerd
I can confirm it's us. Writing a fix right now.
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cleverdevil
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 89 karma
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cleverdevil
My next project may be a way to post photos to my Known site (via micropub) via an Apple Photos Share Sheet...
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kylewm
benwerd: there's an argument to be made that it's weird of bridgy to ping the http endpoint with an https target
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kylewm
like, ideally it should fetch the page it wants to mention and use the webmention endpoint it finds there
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cleverdevil
probably would be smart for bridgy to use the same protocol as the target
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kylewm
or to take the protocol into account when caching
cmhobbs, shiflett_ and nitot joined the channel
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benwerd
Need to do a little more work on this but also have to head into a meeting - will commit later. Sorry for delay
lewisnyman and lukebrooker joined the channel
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aaronpk
cleverdevil: I'd love to use that app!
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cleverdevil
what I'm actually thinking is maybe making something more generic.
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cleverdevil
that you can install and then configure to be more scriptable.
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aaronpk
interesting
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aaronpk
well i'd be happy to help answer micropub/indieauth questions as you go!
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cleverdevil
maybe have a directory full of executable scripts
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cleverdevil
and just list those on the share sheet
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aaronpk
and i'd say start simple for sure
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cleverdevil
I already have some Python code that can do the actual publishing.
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cleverdevil
(that's the easy bit)