#indiewebcamp 2015-09-09

2015-09-09 UTC
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/641406419896434688
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@kevinmarks Yes: SF folk: it's Homebrew Website Club tomorrow night at The Creamery https://kylewm.com/2015/09/sf-home ... http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/yes-sf-folk-its-homebrew-website-club-tomorrow-night-at (twitter.com/_/status/641406419896434688)
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snarfed1 twitter rsvp!
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snarfed if only we had an rsvp microsyntax that bridgy could understand and interpret
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snarfed or do we?
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KevinMarks that is posse'd from the actual rsvp
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snarfed cool
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snarfed so then rsvp microsyntax would only be useful for interpreting "i'm going to X..." tweets
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M-Kodo Is there an ical or something of http://indiewebcamp.com/events?
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snarfed not sure if there's enough of a convention for those
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KevinMarks expanding xoxo to be full mf2 display is interesting.
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KevinMarks putting xoxo up on unmung is worth a go sometime
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aaronpk maybe making an ical feed for http://indiewebcamp.com/events is a good project for me for tomorow
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M-Kodo I'll show off my elixir microformats2 parser
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M-Kodo the beginning of it anyway
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M-Kodo I started parsing nested h- tags and found out it currently sucks
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M-Kodo not really a fan of the idea that p-foo is a property string unless there is an h- then it becomes an object with children
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M-Kodo I have a webmention module for elixir too
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M-Kodo https://github.com/tjgillies/webmention
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M-Kodo I really like in elixir that "libraries" are just applications and you build your application by composing other applications
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[snarfed] sounds like django
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M-Kodo I have never built a django app. I don't really know python. I know the basics but I figured I didn't need to know it since I already knew ruby heh
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aaronpk M-Kodo: the nested h- tag thing is actually really powerful in practice
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aaronpk i've never written the parsing side of it though. luckily that's something you only have to write once (per language) for the most part
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M-Kodo Parsing html trees is kinda fun
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M-Kodo you get to play with recursion
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M-Kodo in erlang it is usually a 3-tuple that looks like {tag_name, [list of attributes], [children of tag]}
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aaronparecki.com edited /Category:building-blocks (-2) "SWAT0 not historical anymore" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] someone wrote a post that linked to https://webmention.io/notification/3EOyDeoASSCxGYXrrPlH6w
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki wrote a post that linked to a photo: "person-tag" http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag https://webmention.io/notification/h0x6DTCiFGphM-tjkv4pxQ
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aaronparecki.com edited /person-tag (+6) (view diff)
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Loqi [indienews] New post: http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/09/08/2/indienews
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@aaronpk @nicolagreco Here's a few more! http://indiewebcamp.com/principles Would love to have you join the conversation! (twitter.com/_/status/641444592273915904)
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented '@nicolagreco Here's a few more! http://indiewebcamp.com/principles Would love to have you join the conversation!' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/09/08/2/)
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aaronpk oookay lots of indienews changes today
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aaronpk hope it's useful!
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[snarfed] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 958 karma
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Loqi [bridgy] Nicola Greco replied '@aaronpk Hi there, I am well aware of that document. Thanks a lot for the connection, I am very keen on getting in touch!' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://twitter.com/nicolagreco/status/641446332025147396)
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mblaney hi aaronpk, I had a go at posting to IndieNews, I don't think it likes that I'm using p-category?
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aaronpk mblaney: can you check your post in http://pin13.net/mf2/ and see if it shows the "category" proeprty?
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mblaney aaronpk it does but it strips the anchor tag.
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aaronpk mblaney: sounds like you need to use u-category instead?
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aaronpk can you share a link?
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mblaney sure! https://unicyclic.com/mal/2015-09-09-testing_update_to_IndieNews_-
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mblaney yeah it doesn't do anything smart, just wraps it in p-category
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mblaney so I guess I need to look at when to apply p-category vs u-category?
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Loqi [mention] Alex liked https://indiewebcamp.com/ https://webmention.io/notification/8DBuFqC86DxJ9I7mpNXjOQ
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aaronpk mblaney: the prefix tells the parser where to get the value from, so u-category when it's on an <a> tag
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mblaney what would I do if I had a bunch of tags, and only some were links?
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aaronpk well you'd probably want them to be clickable on the website right?
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aaronpk so you'd check if it looks like a URL and then display it with an <a> tag if so
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mblaney oh I mean when adding p-category or u-category
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aaronpk yep that's what I mean
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mblaney currently I just wrap my tags in a span with a p-category class, do I keep that and also add u-category to the links?
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aaronpk oh, no, each tag needs its own p-category or u-category tag
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mblaney oh that's what I'm missing then :-)
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aaronpk kinda fun to see the latest photos on http://ownyourgram.com/
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek aaronpk++ LOVE the recent photos from the top 10 on ownyourgram. amazing
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Loqi aaronpk has 959 karma
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@CodebarBrighton Working on a websites?—Don’t miss Homebrew Website Club at @68MiddleSt Wednesday evening from 6-7:30pm. https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/641495160656916480)
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[kevinmarks] http://blog.sgo.to/2014/04/what-your-api-would-look-like-as-webpage.html?m=1
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[kevinmarks] Via rhiaro, note my comment from a while ago
ehlovader, loic_m, eschnou, nitot, mdik, petermolnar, mdik_, Sebastien-L, friedcell, tvn, modem, glennjones, lewisnyman, j12t, stream7, tjgillies__, loic_m_ and adactio joined the channel
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@mapkyca Wow. Just got my first piece of in-the-wild Webmention spam. I guess that means we're mainstream now... (twitter.com/_/status/641550548211253248)
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@tylergillies RT @mapkyca: Wow. Just got my first piece of in-the-wild Webmention spam. I guess that means we're mainstream now... (twitter.com/_/status/641551037682184192)
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petermolnar morning
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petermolnar that tweet aboveon the webmention spam: I'm really not looking forward to this :(
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Zegnat Good morning petermolnar
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Zegnat I am already getting so much referral spam, the same filters might work interchangeably.
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Zegnat Maybe integrate piwiks blacklist (https://github.com/piwik/referrer-spam-blacklist) into our webmention endpoints?
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[kevinmarks] have you seen /vouch ?
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petermolnar vouch is way too expensive
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petermolnar and complicated
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petermolnar imho of course
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Zegnat I do like hashcash for their simplicity, and I accept and verify those on my endpoint (though I am currently not using them). Whether they can really combat spam is a different question
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vanderven.se martijn edited /spam (+305) "/* Other */ Blacklisting domains" (view diff)
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voxpelli haven't had any spam that I know about so far – all spam I've heard people receiving so far has been from pingback-to-webmention bridges
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Loqi voxpelli: mblaney left you a message on 9/8 at 3:28pm: thanks, I'll leave my indie-config the way it is for now then, but open to suggestions. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-08/line/1441751321352
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jonnybarnes voxpelli: or twitter spam replies via bridgy
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voxpelli jonnybarnes: those are tricky :/
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jonnybarnes I haven’t had too many though
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indiewebcamp
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Zegnat Good morning ben_thatmustbeme!
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://unicyclic.com/mal/2015-09-10-Testing_IndieNews http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/unicyclic.com/mal/2015-09-10-Testing_IndieNews
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Jeena No HWC today in Malmö?
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Zegnat Jeena: I really like the design for events on your website, have to say
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Jeena thanks, I invested some time into just designing them
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jonnybarnes is your email actually spam@ Jeena?
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Jeena hehe yeah
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Jeena historical reasons
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Jeena I had a info@ for the important stuff and spam@ just for services I don't trust
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Jeena in the end I get no emails on my info@ but facebook, twitter, and everything else has my spam@ one
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aaronpk almost time for me to renew my wildcard certificate for pin13.net
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aaronpk now I have to decide if it's worth $94/year to get the same one again, or whether it's better to pay the $59 identity validation thingy to startssl so I can get wildcard certs through them
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[snarfed] whee. ssl++, certjuggling--
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aaronpk yeah also now i have to track down everywhere I installed that wildcard cert, fun
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aaronpk it's on my mail server, IRC server, several domain names, etc
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aaronpk oh interesting, so startssl charges $59 for identity validation, which expires after a year, but then the wildcard cert will be valid for 2 years
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aaronpk so that means if I only need one wildcard cert, I am essentially paying $59 for 2 years
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aaronpk that seems like it's worth it
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voxpelli Jeena: Malmö will rejoin next time :)
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Jeena ok cool
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voxpelli aaronpk: nice with micropub html-param change! :)
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aaronpk :)
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Loqi [indienews] New post: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/09/09/1/ http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/09/09/1/
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voxpelli aaronpk: no visual feedback when I click upgrade though – the box remains but I see an ajax request in the background
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aaronpk oh lol sorry. I was tired last night when I was finishing this
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voxpelli it's gone on a refresh though :)
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aaronpk and fixed
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voxpelli verified that it worked with my endpoint :)
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aaronpk excellent
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aaronpk voxpelli: I added a few more strings when I was finishing indienews if you want to fill them out :) https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/blob/master/Locale/sv/default.po
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voxpelli aaronpk: I'll give it a look
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aaronpk thx
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voxpelli aaronpk: new file: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/304233/default.po
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aaronpk awesome
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aaronpk voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 47 karma
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aaronpk oh did you want to translate "There are no posts submitted to the Swedish feed yet! As soon as you {0}submit a post{1} it will show up here." too? (i entered that one in english so it didn't say "english" on the swedish page)
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voxpelli oh, right, sure
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voxpelli aaronpk: file updated now
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voxpelli I should probably take a look at the actual site after you have uploaded it to make sure things makes sense in context as well
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aaronpk haha yeah
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Loqi nice
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aaronpk http://news.indiewebcamp.com/sv
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aaronpk the rest you won't see until there's an article there
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aaronpk good chance to read the "how to" instructions in swedish to see if it makes sense :) http://news.indiewebcamp.com/sv/submit
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+87) "/* HTML Escaping */" (view diff)
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Zegnat There seems to be a grammar mistake on there, but I am always wary of correcting Swedish as it is the third language my math-centric brain has been forced to learn
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voxpelli Zegnat: always kind of hard to get a good flow in the language when one translates, but feel free to give feedback! :)
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voxpelli opened a PR to fix two minor mistakes
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voxpelli (one which ironically was a misspelling of the Swedish word for "issue" :P )
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Zegnat voxpelli: It says "din egna sida", but "egna" is plural, right?
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voxpelli that might be true, perhaps it should be "egen" instead
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Zegnat I think I learned it that way. But those are the type of things I get really wary about as non-native speaker
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Zegnat aaronpk: is there any reason for several webmention endpoints on IndieNews instead of relying on the target parameter?
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aaronpk Zegnat: not really, it was easier for me that way, and no difference for people sending webmentions since you have to discover the webmention endpoint anyway
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Zegnat I was mostly asking because of http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#checking_endpoint_once_per_domain
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk has that been a problem for anyone except bridgy?
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aaronpk hm maybe i should use one endpoint for everything
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Loqi [mention] Ryan Barrett, Lauren Buchman, Eva Lee, Tantek Çelik, Justin Ormont, and Benjamin Michael Goering were invited to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/K_d1gU8gGbaOhnmJ8enizA
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Loqi [mention] Arezu Aghasey, Darius Dunlap, and Kevin Marks RSVPd yes to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/FLx8SbCvHHbbZ8YgIwEnRA
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Loqi [mention] Andi Galpern and Ben Werdmüller RSVPd no to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/FIzEqrS-hlvsUKS1ZDcMZg
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aaronpk clustering++
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Loqi clustering has 1 karma
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voxpelli aaronpk: one could argue that it's good that you use many endpoints because it helps discovers invalid optimizations/assumptions
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aaronpk true, depends on whether you consider caching the webmention endpoint per domain an invalid optimization
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aaronpk okay well regardless, I just fixed a bug that I realized existed thanks to that comment :)
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aaronpk now it doesn't matter which endpoint you send it to, it'll show up in whichever language feed you specify in the target parameter
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Zegnat It is a theoretical problem only at the moment... I think. I had planned to cache endpoints per domain, but dropped those plans after the discussions
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aaronpk I think it's actually a problem for bridgy since they send out so many webmentions, but for the majority of us it's not a practical issue
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voxpelli I know it wouldn't have been a problem for Bloglovin :P But different scale I guess
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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voxpelli Good morning tantek!
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@kartik_prabhu @mapkyca more likely it is pingback spam. Are you using webmention.io which also handles pingbacks? (twitter.com/_/status/641649486758936577)
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@glennjones Just about to head over to Homebrew Website Club http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/641649827613421568)
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tantek KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 119 karma
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voxpelli aaronpk: thought about dropping pingback-support eventually?
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan RSVPd no to https://webmention.io/notification/TlZb0aU5BCjmxueHXqZHRA
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Loqi [mention] Eddie Codel, Marcus Cavanaugh, and Charles Martin RSVPd maybe to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-08-26-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/xI-Pc0pPd6FmTU7VK-Xn8w
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Loqi [mention] Ashwini Sriram, Ali Razfar, Suhaib Syed, and Aditya Mishra were invited to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-08-26-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/xOAmnxEUNGstSETe0P-Q-Q
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Loqi [mention] Carla Borsoi RSVPd no to an event: "Homebrew Website Club Meetup" https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-08-26-homebrew-website-club https://webmention.io/notification/lorCoKJTJAKxBc1i5OKSow
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aaronpk voxpelli: for what? my own site?
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@aaronpk @mapkyca For real? You sure it wasn't from a pingback-to-webmention proxy? (twitter.com/_/status/641650540779143168)
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aaronpk (not sure why that didn't tweet out before)
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voxpelli aaronpk: for WebMention.io in general – or are you receiving many good pingbacks?
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aaronpk well it's up to the site using webmention.io whether they want to support pingbacks! remember you have to advertise your pingback endpoint!
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aaronpk so if you don't want to support pingbacks, just don't include a rel=pingback link :)
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voxpelli I guess, wonder if some adds it just because they think the more the merrier
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aaronpk I still do get useful pingbacks though
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aaronpk especially on my other sites. it's fun to know when people write blog posts about my other projects
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aaronpk nice multi-reply https://mapkyca.com/2015/yeah-false-alarm-sorry-dug-into-it-when-i-had
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KartikPrabhu very neat. could be improved with clustering "replied to posts on ... "
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snarfed good inspiration for salmention presentation
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor snark35
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tantek wat
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Jeena I just updated the picture on https://jeena.net/events/3 and tobias, the one with the computer even got some work done on his website backend with haskell
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tantek great!
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KevinMarks hm, no-one did a big fb invite fro hwc sf this week
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KevinMarks suspect I may be lonely
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aaronpk i saw a burst of invites here earlier
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tantek I did too
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tantek you can invite people that were invited to previous HWC
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tantek as well as reach out to individuals via @-referencing them on Twitter
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Zegnat Jeena: good to see you have pictures of every one of the events so far!
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KevinMarks I'm only seeing 13 and that's after I just invited a few https://www.facebook.com/events/742074362604957/
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KevinMarks ah OK
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Loqi [mention] Leah Culver, Peter Hirshberg, Justin David Kruger, Christopher Carfi, Om Malik, Michelle Greer, Susan Kaup, and Tikva Morowati were invited to https://webmention.io/notification/pMI_jjy7ZmRvgUAZXy_noA
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Loqi [mention] Sarah Dopp, Christian Crumlish, Monica Wilkinson, Katie Johnson, Liza Sperling, Thor Muller, Chris Messina, Pascale Diaine, Evan Prodromou, Martin Atkins, Faruk AteÅŸ, Lonnie Rae, Joichi Ito, Jesse Vincent, Sabrina Bruning, Eddie Codel, Ariel Waldman, Erin Stevenson O'Connor, Yan XZ, Erin Jo Richey, Ryan King, Will Norris, Katarzyna Babula, Doc Searls, Christine Herron, Elisa Jo Harkness, Joseph Smarr, Deb Schultz, Ben Ward, Laura Gluhanich, Megs ORorke, Edward O'Connor, Matt Biddulph, Matthew Levine, Heather Gold, Christina Warren, and Elizabeth Churchill were invited to https://webmention.io/notification/FKubnWbxSBZ014sLzD6RSw
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aaronpk i gotta figure out the length limit for IRC
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tantek yeah!
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Zegnat aaronpk: it is 512 characters right? I seem to recall reading that somewhere
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aaronpk probably depends on the network. guess I can just count the chars in that last message that got cut off
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aaronpk looks like 422 there. maybe things like nick length contribute to it?
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tantek is it IRC specific, Freenode specific? citations?
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tantek what is the length limit for IRC?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "length limit for IRC" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102b
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aaronpk aha
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aaronpk 512 chars per command https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2812#section-2
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aaronpk 2 are the \r\n
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aaronpk you need to fit the channel name in there too
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tantek heh - that sounds worth adding to the wiki ;)
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tantek especially for POSSE to IRC :D
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aaronpk oh dear
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Zegnat commands also have the full sender info, if I read the RFC right? One of the examples: :Angel!wings@irc.org PRIVMSG Wiz :Are you receiving this message ?
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tantek #-seewhereIamgoingwiththat
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aaronpk there's no posse section on /IRC
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tantek we can fix that - especially since there's a Known plugin to POSSE to IRC
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aaronpk https://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2015/07/30/syndicating-your-indieweb-content-to-irc/
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tantek yessss
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aaronpk anxiously awaits for someone to submit a post to the German or Swedish IndieNews :D
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Zegnat When I finally get my blog going I’ll submit a pull for a Dutch IndieNews, do remind me about that though
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aaronpk nice!
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club (+74) "out-of-band RSVPs" (view diff)
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Zegnat Jeena: may I pull your HWC photo to the wiki?
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aaronpk oh what... tvOS apps are XML and javascript
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aaronpk s/are/can be
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: oh what... tvOS apps can be XML and javascript
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sparverius not swift? although i guess that makes sense; i wonder how many 10 foot apps for other platforms are javascript backed
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aaronpk "New templates using XML and Javascript are also available as a framework for tvOS apps, so you can use predefined layouts and Javascript APIs to quickly create beautiful apps ideal for streaming media." https://developer.apple.com/tvos/
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aaronpk all the regular iOS frameworks are there too
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cleverdevil interesting...
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cleverdevil aaronpk: yep.. TVML -> https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/tvos/samplecode/TVMLCatalog/Introduction/Intro.html
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cleverdevil https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/tvos/documentation/LanguagesUtilities/Conceptual/ATV_Template_Guide/
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Zegnat XML actually doesn’t sound that bad, as it forces every app to have the same UI/UX, just with different settings
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Zegnat I have to navigate apps with my remote, so you better make it easy on me
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aaronpk wonder what kind of indieweb apps i could make for apple tv :)
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cleverdevil good question!
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Zegnat live feed of IndieNews scrolling on the office TV, aaronpk
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aaronpk lol
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KevinMarks oh dear: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/tvos/documentation/LanguagesUtilities/Conceptual/ATV_Template_Guide/index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40015064-CH41-SW1
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KevinMarks Apple invented an XML markup language with a JS subset for tvOS https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/tvos/documentation/TVMLJS/Reference/TVJSFrameworkReference/index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40016076
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tantek KevinMarks: yeah, see the scrollback / logs
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KevinMarks odd choice when chromecast went with html
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tantek and when iOS 1.0 went with HTML
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KartikPrabhu new XML for each device!
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tantek it's a good use of the eXperiment Markup Language
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tantek gather data for how to actually make it work cross-device
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tantek interesting: https://twitter.com/joindiaspora/status/616706653946163200
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@joindiaspora @Natureshadow @elloworld @zaskoda ... the W3C SocialWG effort to standardize a social federation protocol. See here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg (twitter.com/_/status/616706653946163200)
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gRegorLove Afternoon, #indiewebcamp
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tantek greetings gRegorLove
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@kartik_prabhu @joindiaspora @Natureshadow @elloworld @zaskoda http://indiewebcamp.com and implement-&-improve standards? @withknown already uses them! (twitter.com/_/status/641740615739408384)
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KartikPrabhu too many @ mentions original post: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/re-diaspora-indieweb
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tantek KartikPrabhu: was that a custom POSSE text edit?
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KartikPrabhu yes. manually. I wish bridgy publish allowed custom POSSE text
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tantek KartikPrabhu: pretty sure you can use p-summary for that?
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm! will have to think about that
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KartikPrabhu the problem is I don't want to complicate my note posting UI with a field for summary
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aaronpk make it optional? hidden by default
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you just contradicted yourself! You said you wished that Bridgy had a field for custom POSSE text, and yet you don't want a field for POSSE text in your note posting uI!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: no a field for optional POSSE text is fine. But then I don't want it to show up as summary in my post markup since it will most likely be a "shortened" version of the whole post, not a summary
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tantek you could provide it as a progressive disclosure thing
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snarfed1 ooh a hidden (meta)data use case
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snarfed grabs popcorn
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snarfed remind me a bit of http://indiewebcamp.com/h-card#Issues
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KartikPrabhu tantek: usually I don't want readers on my site to see the truncated version anyway. the whole issue is Twitter's stupid char-limit.
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KartikPrabhu Ideally I'd host a POSSE code and make it send some shortened text
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tantek thanks snarfed, apologies for the delay in following up on that. :/
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you could use the progressive disclosure elements in HTML5 to not show it by default.
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KartikPrabhu but show it with some UI?
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KartikPrabhu as in there is some UI so that the reader can see it on my site?
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tantek yes
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tantek but not by default (when page is loaded)
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tantek they have to click something to view
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KartikPrabhu hmm the thing I don't see is why reveal that jumbled text at all
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KartikPrabhu I already dislike doing it for Twitter
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tantek q+
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gRegorLove what's progressive disclosure elements?
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KartikPrabhu summary and details?
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KartikPrabhu don't know if most browsers provide a default UI for those
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snarfed not enough. http://caniuse.com/details
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tantek you can polyfill
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "heh" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+97) "revert to a version of all but Malmo" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-5) "wrap" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] The mobile ones do, and Firefox users like more detail anyway ;)