#indiewebcamp 2015-09-13

2015-09-13 UTC
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@aorcsik @kobak indieweb és web mentions pluginok, bár a pjelenlegi témán nem jelennek meg jól, majd javítani akarom (twitter.com/_/status/642979913553870848)
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@martinlindner @mdeimann ja genau, die open source- und indieweb-bewegung hat ja deutlich mehr "public good" produziert als der staat. (twitter.com/_/status/643001050287489026)
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb!
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blueyed Where can I get support for IndieAuth.com?
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voxpelli blueyed: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com
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blueyed voxpelli: thanks. Posted an issue at https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/106.
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Zegnat blueyed: otherwise ask aaronpk here on the channel. The reason you missed him here yesterday is probably because of XOXO
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GWG I sometimes think I'm misunderstanding the basics of microformats
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voxpelli GWG: misunderstanding how?
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GWG I think I may be misdoing H-Cards.
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voxpelli GWG: misdoing? using them in the wrong context or with the wrong properties or how?
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GWG The h-card can either be attached to the h-feed or the h-entry, correct?
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voxpelli GWG: that sounds right
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GWG But if I have no h-card attached to the h-entry, only to the h-feed, I think some people have issues
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voxpelli GWG: maybe, but for any blog with a single author it would be pretty repetitive to include it in each item in a list
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voxpelli so from an indieweb perspective I think one should expect that any list of h-entries have the h-card on the h-feed level – but I haven't checked if that's the recommended assumption though
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GWG I need to improve the logic for my site to address that though.
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GWG And my site code, being WordPress, is written in pieces. A custom theme plus plugins.
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voxpelli GWG: you have a reader or why would it affect your site?
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Zegnat GWG: I think you are talking about /authorship, and if the h-entry of interest is missing an author, parsers should look at the parent h-feed
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Zegnat what is authorship?
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Loqi authorship is a claim about who the author(s) of a post are https://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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Zegnat See step 4
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GWG Zegnat: I am, but people keep saying they have problems with my site.
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voxpelli only indie readers really care about h-feeds?
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voxpelli eg. WebMentions mostly expects a single h-entry per URL I think
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Zegnat If they are having problems you could point them at /authorship, their discovery might be wrong. It says right there that people should check the parent h-feed of the h-entry for author
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GWG I usually assume I'm wrong and someone else is right around hre
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voxpelli Zegnat++ for that link (a bit weird that the microformats wiki about at least h-feed doesn't mention it – feels like a microformat think more than an indieweb one?)
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Loqi Zegnat has 12 karma
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voxpelli GWG: in what context do they claim things doesn't work?
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Zegnat who is GWG?
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Loqi David Shanske is an Indieweb enthusiast from New York, working on Indieweb WordPress plugin development https://indiewebcamp.com/User:David.shanske.com
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GWG voxpelli: I'm trying to remember who last said they had problems
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[aaronpk] I need to finish my rewrite. I just lost the last couple commits because I lost track of the state of things and somehow managed to delete some commits. *tear*
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voxpelli also – I guess when it comes to stuff like this I think we all have to think about about what we think is right and do that and document our experiences and compare them to the experience by others – often there may be gaps in the existing documented experiences that make it not fully fit our own scenarios
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GWG offers aaronpk a hug
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voxpelli [aaronpk]: you can _never_ lose commits
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voxpelli [aaronpk]: do a "git reflog"
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[aaronpk] That's what you'd thing but I can't find them
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[aaronpk] Problem is I had the remote set to the same folder
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voxpelli [aaronpk]: the "git reflog" shows how the HEAD of your repo has moved around – somewhere you should find the commit hash of your lost commit and by checking that out as a new branch or something you can rediscover that data
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voxpelli old data isn't garbage collected in git for quite a while (believe me – I tried – after accidentally commiting +1GB of images to a code repo :P )
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aaronpk whoa okay I have never seen this before
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Zegnat GWG: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdavid.shanske.com%2F2015%2F09%2F09%2Fcolbert-hydrox%2F has an author property no problem. I think your implementation might not be the problem
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GWG Zegnat: I still need to refine it
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GWG WordPress and Indieweb still seem complicated to newbies
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Zegnat And your homepage also shows a correct author property on the h-feed (http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdavid.shanske.com%2F)
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voxpelli GWG: Zegnat: if you find interesting h-entry metadata that others should test their implementations against – please open a PR for https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger :)
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aaronpk omg
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voxpelli by having test suites like that we make it easy for consumers to spot their mistakes early on
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Zegnat Starred it, voxpelli, in case I run into anything. I was really just checking GWG’s site parsed by pin13 at the moment
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voxpelli Zegnat: just adding your own h-entry markup is interesting enough imho :)
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aaronpk voxpelli++ i found it!
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Loqi voxpelli has 48 karma
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voxpelli aaronpk: nice! :)
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aaronpk i still don't quite know what happened, but at least it's there now.
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Zegnat Also, related, the discussion around parsing mf and authorship, just 2 days ago: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-11#t1442003971037
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voxpelli what is tests?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "tests" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102f
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Zegnat Was that what you were referring to, GWG? As you commented you were ‘being glared at’?
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Zegnat Did you break rhiaro’s code?
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voxpelli Seems like we don't have a page listing all the tools one can use to check conformance with? Like the testpinger, Indiewebify.me, the MF2-tests etc?
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voxpelli aaronpk: you know if we have such a test page where one can find all tools to "validate" ones implementations?
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GWG Zegnat: I don't use an author property on hentrys
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GWG I think though I should improve the logic on that
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voxpelli GWG: you do on individual posts, don't you?
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GWG Yes, because of the way I set up h-entry vs h-feed. I got the idea from pfefferle
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GWG WordPress has a post_class and a body_class function
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Zegnat there is nothing wrong with setting an author per feed though, so you are doing things completely fine
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voxpelli I do the very same thing: http://voxpelli.com/
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GWG If it is an individual page, h-entry goes on the body_class. If it is not, h-feed goes on the body_class and h-entry goes on the post_class
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Zegnat voxpelli: indiewebify is linked on the "Getting Started" page, several times. Not sure about other places the wiki talks about testing things
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Zegnat Sounds like solid logic to me, GWG
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GWG I don't have h-card logic, which I need to put in
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voxpelli Zegnat: don't think the testpinger is a good getting started thing though – more like: Do this once you're started and want to ensure your implementation is robust
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voxpelli is reading the "principles" page, finds "fun" as a list point, now wants to build an animated Gif micropub-thingie
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[aaronpk] I haven't seen such a list, but you could try searching for some tools that would be on t
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voxpelli tests are a way to automatically check ones implementation for edge cases where it may break
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voxpelli I guess I was too slow :P
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GWG I need more WordPress people willing to help with improving the situation there, even if just writing documentation or making suggestions for user improvements.
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kodfabrik.se created /tests (+1342) "Initial list of test tools and test suites" (view diff)
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GWG What is testing?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "testing" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102g
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voxpelli has no idea how to add aliases to the wiki :P
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GWG Testing is tests.
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loqi.me created /Testing (+44) "prompted by GWG https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-13/line/1442161891595 and dfn added by GWG" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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voxpelli that was easy :)
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GWG That didn't work though here.
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GWG I can edit it
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aaronpk testing is /tests
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aaronpk or testing is [[tests]]
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aaronparecki.com edited /Testing (-26) "Redirected page to [[tests]]" (view diff)
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GWG I was just doing that.
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kodfabrik.se edited /tests (+31) "Making it obvious that there are no micropub test suites yet" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com created /testing (+19) "Redirected page to [[tests]]" (view diff)
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aaronpk oops sorry
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voxpelli would be great to see tests for indie readiers and micropub clients and servers as well :)
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GWG voxpelli: As snarfed keeps reminding me
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[snarfed] well, both unit tests for individual projects and standalone testers/validators!
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[snarfed] both good, but very different
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voxpelli [snarfed]: especially good when one can include one in the other as well ;)
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GWG snarfed: I do have a Micropub question I've been meaning to ask. How, with the plugin, are we deciding on deprecating things no longer part of the spec?
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[snarfed] GWG: good question! no clue
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[snarfed] sounds like a low priority though
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GWG snarfed: If I'm trying to add new things in at some point, whether to keep the old things in is relevant though.
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voxpelli everything micropub should be considered pretty experimental right now I think so should be fairly easy to deprecate fairly fast
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aaronpk agreed
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voxpelli I eg pushed the [html] change without any backwards compatibility for my projects
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[snarfed] GWG: sure. i say keep backward compatibility for now until it becomes a problem. i doubt it will for a while
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GWG voxpelli, aaronpk: How long is quickly?
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voxpelli GWG: I would deprecate them in the next feature release and remove them in the one after (in semver-terms, deprecate in 0.1.0 and remove in 0.2.0) – unless the rest of the micropub community have a hard time keeping up on that specific feature
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GWG That works as a rule of thumb.
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GWG Also, the way WordPress does it
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@myfreeweb @mcclure111 you're looking for https://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed -- for example, brid.gy posted a tweet response to my site: https://unrelenting.technology/notes/2015-09-04-20-50-46 (twitter.com/_/status/643135343940775936)
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@RealGuerillero @caseorganic's @TEDTalks was on @NPR. It made my day to listen to a digital anthropologist on a mainstream news source. Sadly, no #IndieWeb. (twitter.com/_/status/643148575644381185)
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aaronpk someone suggested submitting things to indienews by adding u-category=http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
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aaronpk which is kind of like a person-tag, except it's not a person
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GWG aaronpk: Is that how that would work?
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aaronpk I already implemented it on indienews
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aaronpk both u-syndication and u-category work
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GWG So, if I add u-syndication=news.indiewebcamp.com ... no specific page...it will syndicate?
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aaronpk yep
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GWG Or do I need to send a webmention?
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aaronpk yeah you need to send a webmention of course
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GWG I figured.
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GWG Just checking
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GWG I need to key that in
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GWG Is there any other situation under which you'd want to send a webmention for a u-syndication?
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aaronpk hm I don't know
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aaronpk so anyway now I am thinking about how to handle this "collection" idea on my own site, where I want to have a post like a train ride appear on both my "travel" and "transport" feeds
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aaronpk which I realized is an awful lot like indienews
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aaronpk so I am considering implementing my "collection" idea as tagging posts with my own collection URLs I want them to appear on
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GWG aaronpk: Not a bad idea
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aaronpk i'm struggling with two things:
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aaronpk 1) I lose the ability to know whether a tag that is a URL actually represents a person or not
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aaronpk 2) i forgot the other one
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KartikPrabhu for 1) check for h-card?
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aaronpk yeah but that means an extra http request, plus i have to store that information somewhere
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KartikPrabhu oh your collection pages will have an h-card too... hmmmnevermind
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aaronpk right now I am storing tags: foo,bar,http://aaronparecki.com etc
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aaronpk so I don't actually store any additional attributes of the tag, just what I show in the post and what comes in the micropub request
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aaronpk oh yeah my collection pages would have an h-card to designate the author of the feed
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aaronpk (me)
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KartikPrabhu yeah...
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aaronpk right now i'm separating regular tags from person tags in the UI of my posts, they show up in separate places, and person tags have a little person icon next to them
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KartikPrabhu so you'd have to check if the tagged URL is the u-url or u-uid of the h-card
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aaronpk so I do think there is a user-visible reason to know the distinction between whether a URL tag is a person or not
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KartikPrabhu yes agreed
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aaronpk these are the struggles of using experimental standards as the storage format for your site
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KartikPrabhu of course you are paving the way
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aaronpk the thing I want to avoid is getting into a situation where I make a bad decision that requires me to rewrite everything in another year
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aaronpk like I just did
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KartikPrabhu imagine being the first person to use relational databases
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aaronpk hah
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aaronpk I think the only way for me to move forward without resolving the person-tag vs other-url-tag issue is to store this in some other place, and only use u-syndication for indienews
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M-Kodo Aaronpk is it just me or does indienews need to be wrapped in an h-feed?
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KartikPrabhu syndication makes more sense for indienews if the only purpose is to ummm... syndicate
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aaronpk M-Kodo: it probably does! tho not required
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M-Kodo Ah
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M-Kodo Ok
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aaronpk a list of h-entrys is a valid feed, but if the feed has other information like a specific name, then wrapping in h-feed is better
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M-Kodo Got it
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M-Kodo Good to know thanks
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KartikPrabhu yeah I had to build that list logic into hfeed2atom
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M-Kodo I was pondering making an Esperanto translation heh
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aaronpk that would be fun :)
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aaronpk so indienews can't have original content, so it really is an aggregator. i guess it's a question of the difference between an aggregator and a syndication destination
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KartikPrabhu isn't POSSE just like submitting to an aggregator?
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aaronpk possibly?
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aaronpk I think most existing aggregators tend to focus around specific topics
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KartikPrabhu the question is then is there a use-case to make a distinction?
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aaronpk subreddits, hackernews, etc
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aaronpk planets don't necessarily focus around a topic, but are dedicated to a community
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GWG We're a community focused around a topic
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Zegnat I find a lot of planets pretty topic-focussed, but maybe just the ones that I follow
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aaronpk indienews is more specific than a planet though, since you don't expect to see all of everyone's blog posts there, only indieweb-related posts
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M-Kodo How does indie news store content?
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Zegnat That’s true, IndieNews is like a planet-with-filter. Still think it compares closer to a planet than to a subreddit
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M-Kodo On the server side
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aaronpk once people start submitting bookmarks to other posts that might change :)
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aaronpk M-Kodo: it's php+mysql https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews
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@aaronpk Just launched the French version of IndieNews, translation by @xtof_fr! http://news.indiewebcamp.com/fr (twitter.com/_/status/643166079506710528)
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@ChrisAldrich A year ago I began using @WithKnown. Along with #IndieWeb it's how I've always thought the web should work. Thanks IndieWebbers! (twitter.com/_/status/643183090379067392)
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mblaney went for a job a few weeks ago but didn't get it. happy to keep playing with indie-web instead :-)
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Loqi mblaney: Zegnat left you a message on 9/10 at 1:01am: the IWC wiki is not very kind to us with slashes in our ID URLs. I struggled with it a lot when setting up my user page and getting my URL right on /IRC_People http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-10/line/1441872083784
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mblaney thanks for forging the "path" Zegnat :-) sounds like I had an easier time.
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mblaney next on my list is handling web actions (since I now offer them to others but can't do anything with them myself)