#indiewebcamp 2015-09-16

2015-09-16 UTC
mlncn, M-Kodo, sandro-, Guerillero|BNC, snarfed, cjk101010, Jeena and KevinMarks joined the channel
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KevinMarks hm, my hovercards seem to stress safari mac
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[snarfed] re fb, probably a phased rollout
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mblaney hello
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mblaney I'm working on reply contexts, and have been over these pages a few times: /like, /repost & /reply
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mblaney one thing I noticed is that replies get extra markup on their permalink pages than the other two, with rel="in-reply-to"?
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mblaney I'm just wondering if using u-in-reply-to would be enough?
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kylewm mblaney: yes u-in-reply-to is enough, rel=in-reply-to is mainly for legacy consumers (i'm not sure who actually uses it, that doesn't use mf2)
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mblaney thanks kylewm! there's some advantage to implementing these things once you've already worked out the details ;-)
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j4y-funabashi hello
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Zegnat hi!
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Zegnat Good afternoon IndieWeb
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j4y-funabashi Happy to say I have taken the first steps in joining the indieweb! Really excited by everything I have read on the wiki! Just a shame it has taken me so long to find you guys
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Zegnat The fact you have found your way to the IRC channel is a big step all in itself
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petermolnar note to self: raspberry pi is not reliable :(
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petermolnar pi2
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oddvar how so?
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petermolnar I've set it up yesterday, after numerous attempts, finally correctly
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petermolnar trying to debootstrap a few lxc container bases
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petermolnar raspberry pi2 flies away, no ping, no nothing
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j4y-funabashi yeah I just need to brush off my irc skills
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petermolnar is there a watchdog thing on the pi that reboots it in case of fails?
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Zegnat I think there is quiet a bit of info about IRC on the wiki, but if you have any questions ask them
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petermolnar oddvar I think it's the microsd card, not the pi itself
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oddvar hope so!
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j4y-funabashi Cheers Zegnat, will have more of a look
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j4y-funabashi @petermolnar is it class10? I have heard that really helps
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petermolnar it is, a lexar class10
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petermolnar 64GB
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petermolnar I'll never buy it again if it really it the card
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petermolnar and will stick to sandisk
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petermolnar like I did before
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j4y-funabashi yeah, I think mine is sanDisk and never had any issues. What are you working on with lxc? I am messing around with docker at the mo
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petermolnar I can't check it now, the pi is at home and I'm at work T_T
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petermolnar I have lxc containers for a bunch of wordpress based websites; most of the work is deployed with ansible
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petermolnar i dislike the download-full-blown-container approach of docker
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j4y-funabashi fair enough, I am just getting my head around containers in general + docker makes it nice and simple
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@magdaborowik So #indie. http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/?utm_content=buffer080d2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #indieweb #decentralization #web #internet #p2p (twitter.com/_/status/644111499900940288)
hs0ucy, kerozene, j12t, scoates, reidab, mlncn, friedcell, halorgium, mlncn_, KevinMarks_, squeakytoy, snarfed, yakker, loic_m, tvn, nitot_, friedcell1 and nitot joined the channel
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@dissolve333 #indieweb testing out adding a live blogging option to my mp endpoint (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/9/16/11/) (twitter.com/_/status/644159591933046784)
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@dissolve333 #indieweb testing out adding a live blogging option to my mp endpoint (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/9/16/12/) (twitter.com/_/status/644159654012948480)
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pfefferle good morning all
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[snarfed] hey pfefferle!
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pfefferle hey hey snarfed
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ben_thatmustbeme it worked
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ben_thatmustbeme haha!
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Loqi ahahaha
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@benborges_ How to use @withKnown built-in RSS features ? --> http://stream.withknown.com/2014/krisshaffer-yup-weve-got-lots-of-rss-feeds-built-in #indieweb https://1-m.cc/s/3Uomg (twitter.com/_/status/644178272574664705)
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@kevinmarks “Do we really want to count on large corporations to inform and enlighten us?” https://www.yahoo.com/tech/creatives-ask-what-kind-of-web-do-we-want-129160086429.html #xoxofest #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/644189313597485056)
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[kevinmarks] Ironic yahoo url there
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tantek wow that link is busted without JS
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tantek clicks the Reader button in his FF toolbar
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aaronpk holy cow look at the source
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@markcollected Finally! Able to post to Facebook with Known. But, without submitting. No idea how long it'll work without submitting. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/644192765304287233)
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KevinMarks I suspect Rob may be intentionally ironic about Yahoo there
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@belongbot4000 RT @kevinmarks: “Do we really want to count on large corporations to inform and enlighten us?” https://www.yahoo.com/tech/creatives-ask-what-kind-of-web-do-we-want-129160086429.html #xoxofest #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/644197896146001920)
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KevinMarks I'm on TWiG today again, so suggestions of things to discuss with Jeff and Leo welcomed
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voxpelli Thinking – the Indie Reader equivalent of Brid.gy – could that be an IndieWeb version of Detox? http://usedetox.com/ That weaves an indie feed into the Facebook feed?
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voxpelli (not related to TWiG, we just happened to post at the same time :) )
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@confreaks New Video! @osbridge Micropub: The Emerging API Standard for IndieWeb Apps by @aaronpk http://confreaks.tv/videos/osbridge2015-micropub-the-emerging-api-standard-for-indieweb-apps (twitter.com/_/status/644209229025296384)
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[kevinmarks] http://www.commitstrip.com/en/2015/09/16/how-to-choose-the-right-javascript-framework/
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kylewm lol "Crazy Boarding"
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@dissolve333 #devopsdaysbos all your comments and likes on my posts get syndicated back to my site #indieweb (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/9/16/33/) (twitter.com/_/status/644219224131399680)
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GWG Today, I am back looking at the WordPress webmentions and Semantic Linkbacks plugins. I seem to jump around a lot.
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GWG I've been listening to podcasts where the hosts insist that comments are a broken system.
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tantek They *are*! For so many reasons
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tantek Perhaps we should document them
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tantek Why are comments broken?
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tantek half expects Loqi to answer.
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Loqi is done
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tantek gives Loqi a fork.
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Loqi gives back the fork.
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GWG But like Linkbacks, people seem to just give up and shut them off
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tantek Why do people just give up?
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tantek What are comment problems?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "comment problems" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102u
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GWG Frustration or apathy
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tantek GWG ^^^ start that page with what you learn from the podcast and elsewhere.
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tantek By understanding these pain points, and making sure webmentions etc. solve them, we can motivate people to try webmentions.
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Loqi [indienews] New post: http://confreaks.tv/videos/osbridge2015-micropub-the-emerging-api-standard-for-indieweb-apps (from http://aaronparecki.com/bookmarks/2015/09/16/2/osbridge-indieweb-micropub) http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/confreaks.tv/videos/osbridge2015-micropub-the-emerging-api-standard-for-indieweb-apps
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david.shanske.com created /comment_problems (+179) "Created page with "Common complaints include: * Spam control * Moderation becomes overwhelming * Inability to surface useful comments amidst noise * Moving the conversation to a silo is 'easier'"" (view diff)
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GWG I'm on mobile. I need to refine that later
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aaronpk GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 121 karma
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GWG People find likes easy. You don't have to say anything.
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tantek KevinMarks: you may want to add to /comment_problems also based on the real world problems you're experiencing with @-replies to your POSSE tweet copies during #xoxofest
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GWG Are likes 'noise'?
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kylewm not on facebook, they determine whether people will see your stuff
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GWG But on your own site...
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GWG It is like a view counter. Remember those?
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@progressivered POSSE — Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere. https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/644223285278978048)
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tantek GWG - on your own site, the total likes may be consumed by Indie /readers and possibly used to prioritize posts too (once Indie readers start ordering posts by not just most recently posted)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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GWG It makes me feel like writing some articles to see if I get replies
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vanderven.se martijn edited /comment_problems (+143) "For science!" (view diff)
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GWG So, how might you promote better comments? liking a comment, like an upvote?
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tantek GWG, you have to support receiving salmentions to get likes on comments on your posts :)
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GWG acegiak was working on that. Not sure how it is going.
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GWG At last report, it was very rough
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loqi.me created /moderate (+23) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comment_problems (+272) "dfn, issues heading, see also" (view diff)
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@dissolve333 #indieweb trying to syndicate with shortlinks instead of full permalinks (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/9/16/45/) (twitter.com/_/status/644236453342347264)
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gRegorLove Howdy, indiewebcamp
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message on 9/13 at 10:55pm: could you take a look adding HWC events for 2015-09-23 and perhaps October too? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-13/line/1442210113295
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tantek.com edited /comment_problems (+819) "POSSE and backfeed, solutions, more see also" (view diff)
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tantek !tell KevinMarks I tried to capture a bit of the tweet abuse problem you mentioned earlier: https://indiewebcamp.com/comment_problems#POSSE_and_backfeed please add any more relevant details you think would help solve the problem(s)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek welcome back gRegorLove !
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KevinMarks if I had POSSEd the individual tweets too, this one would have swamped my site https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/642927875465719809
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: I tried to capture a bit of the tweet abuse problem you mentioned earlier: https://indiewebcamp.com/comment_problems#POSSE_and_backfeed please add any more relevant details you think would help solve the problem(s) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-16/line/1442433252077
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@kevinmarks When @femfreq speaks it is impossible to summarise her, because she speaks in perfect paragraphs that go from analysis to action #xoxofest (twitter.com/_/status/642927875465719809)
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KevinMarks so, TWiG suggestions?
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KevinMarks what have we indieweb'd since last time when Leo gave us live user testing on air
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@dissolve333 #indieweb looks like it worked, only kinda broke another part, but ... iterate (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/9/16/46/) (twitter.com/_/status/644241008432037888)
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snarfed you may also be interested in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/173
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snarfed oops, wrong channel, sorry all
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snarfed KevinMarks: re swamping, we're up for the challenge! try adding known.kevinmarks.com to your twitter profile and PESOS the tweet with a syndication url. it'll be a fun stress test
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snarfed benwerd did a similar synthetic load test from bridgy to known years ago, thousands of responses on a single post
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kylewm guessing the reponses are mostly ones Kevin doesn't want on his site
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kylewm made me surprisingly grumpy reading those
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KevinMarks yes, quite
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KevinMarks especially when they get into a long back and forth while @ ing me in
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aaronpk yeah just don't read those
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aaronpk everyone is better off that way
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KartikPrabhu isn't that what slamentions will do in the future ?
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rhiaro.co.uk created /events/2015-09-17-homebrew-website-club (+2081) "Created page with "<div class="h-event vevent"> = <span class="p-name summary">Homebrew Website Club Meetup</span> = == Details == === When === <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">..."" (view diff)
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KevinMarks it's more that we need sal-blocks where I block the derpery from my own site and that propogates back through the indie services to twitter
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KevinMarks blocking or muting individuals helps me a bit, but not people reading my tweet so much
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rhiaro anm moredhel R2ZER0_ KitB tbrb DePhraser HWC Edinburgh signup ^ :)
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KartikPrabhu if we need to have a feature only to block it in the most used case, isn't that backwards?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: i think you're missing context here
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KartikPrabhu possibly.
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KartikPrabhu goes back to work
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aaronpk I would say go read the thread kevin linked to except don't
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rhiaro woah aaronpk did next-hwc update automatically when I added that new page?
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rhiaro never mind
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rhiaro tantek had already set it
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rhiaro I thought magic happened
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+109) (view diff)
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tantek rhiaro: glad to hear it seemed like magic was happening, even if only for a minute. :)
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rhiaro It was actually cos I clicked history, not realising the page had already redirect, and then was really confused by the history for /events-... being the history for /next-hwc... Never mind.
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rhiaro automating that one part of events updating would be pretty useful though..
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KartikPrabhu sounds like a time travel movie
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aaronpk mediawiki has an api, so technically anyone should be able to script that :)
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rhiaro camerongray, want to bring Well Volunteered Bot in here?
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camerongray oh yeah, will dp
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camerongray do*
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rhiaro Heh
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rhiaro I don't think we need the bot for that when we have tantek
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camerongray Got to get ready for London, keep reminding me
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Loqi [mention] Amy Guy commented 'HWC Edinburgh Personal site hacking at Edinburgh's Homebrew Website Club. 17th September 2015...' on a post http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-17-homebrew-website-club (http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/09/hwc-edinburgh-6)
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rhiaro I like how my auto url slug generator is keeping count of the edinburgh hwcs by itself
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tantek rhiaro++ yay for automation! is your auto url slug generator a separable piece of code you can share / open source?
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Loqi rhiaro has 160 karma
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rhiaro tantek: https://bitbucket.org/rhiaro/slogd/src/b451b54fc26c632f1195e1fcdc8ef5c0ba3d7355/html/lib/Slogd_makeUri.php?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default
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rhiaro actually reads her code
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rhiaro there is a lot of redundant code there
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rhiaro redundant/unused
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rhiaro I need to clean up
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tantek I know the feeling
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sparverius three words: large php codebase
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tantek sparverius: seems to have worked well for WordPress, Drupal, and of course Facebook
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aaronpk yes cause php is the only language that lends itself to large code bases
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tantek (lol!)
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sparverius haha yeah, we're on our way to clean, dry code
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aaronpk oh, and of course, Slack is also PHP
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aaronpk and don't forget Flickr
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sparverius tantek: it took wordpress a long time to get to that point, facebook zagged off and did hack/hhvm
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tantek aaronpk - that's just counting Cal Henderson twice :P
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tantek sparverius: Facebook had already "succeeded" when they "zagged off and did hack/hhvm"
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aaronpk hehe true, but it's still worth noting that they built a *new project* after flickr in PHP, vs changing to something else
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tantek not surprising a lead developer sticks with tools they're comfortably productive with :)
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sparverius tantek: this codebase im working on is also a "success", im just griping because im part of the cleanup
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tantek sparverius: cleanup means success has bought you the time luxury of doing so because someone (you?) were expedient by prioritizing your development accordingly in the first place!
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tantek it's not a gripe, it's a # humblebrag ;)
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sparverius tantek: I'm well aware of the cause/effect of it, I didn't think of it as a humblebrag lol, just the task set in front of me
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Zegnat clean ups often turn into rewrites for me, and rewrites then turn into a new mess that replace the old mess. Counter intuitive
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tantek Zegnat indeed. On a long enough time scale, such repeated cycles perhaps resemble the heartbeat of a living project
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aaronpk hopes a rewrite of his site was the right decision
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sparverius Zegnat: instead of rewrite, i try to encapulate and write a shitton of good tests
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tantek aaronpk: that's not the question, the question is did you wait too long ;)
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aaronpk haha
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sparverius tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 239 karma
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aaronpk shots fired https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/644257904179019776
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@aaronpk Sometimes I get crap cause I still use PHP. I like to remind people of a few popular PHP sites: Facebook, Flickr, Wordpress, Slack (twitter.com/_/status/644257904179019776)
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tantek nicely done, especially with mixing sites/projects, that's a good honeypot for pedants
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Zegnat Isn’t something along the lines of 80% of the internet running on PHP? I really don’t get websites getting crap for using PHP... Just don’t develop your new fancy image and video processing tool in PHP and you’ll be fine
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aaronpk first reply mentioned that Etsy is also php
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aaronpk I was actually surprised that Slack uses jQuery as opposed to either plain JS or one of the newer things like React/Ember/etc
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KevinMarks well, between wordpress and FB, likely
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rikkiguy.me.uk edited /events/2015-09-17-homebrew-website-club (+21) "/* Edinburgh */" (view diff)
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rhiaro R2ZER0++
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Loqi R2ZER0 has 1 karma
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aaronpk I was considering learning something like Ember.js to make my IRC replacement but now I think I might just stick with jQuery
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KevinMarks jquery is starting to get a little redundant too
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KevinMarks Lea's point about fake wrapper objects is good: http://lea.verou.me/2015/04/jquery-considered-harmful/
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sparverius sorry to start a language slapfight :( i wasn't meaning to
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Loqi *sniff*
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kylewm jquery definitely still has some nice advantages over vanilla js... jsonp handling was one i came across recently
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KevinMarks OK, indieweb tool of the week for Leo?
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aaronpk http://news.indiewebcamp.com now in 4 languages
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aaronpk easier to submit articles now, and you can submit other peoples posts
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snarfed also flickr newly added to bridgy thanks to kylewm
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KevinMarks "The idea won’t be to start a website. That will be dead. The individual website won’t matter." -@ev http://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthof/2015/09/09/mediums-evan-williams-to-publishers-your-website-is-toast/
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aaronpk zuh
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aaronpk that link redirects me to forbes.com/forbes/welcome
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KevinMarks yeah, leave it for a bit
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aaronpk ah there it goes
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KevinMarks it's ironic like that yahoo one earlier
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aaronpk I don't entirely disagree, but I don't like his framing
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KevinMarks "everybody knows the banner on the web page is not going to be paying your bills in five years. Not a video or a takeover either."
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aaronpk "The Internet is not going to be about billions of people going to millions of websites. It will be about getting it from centralized websites."
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aaronpk s/centralized/aggregation
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: "The Internet is not going to be about billions of people going to millions of websites. It will be about getting it from aggregation websites."
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aaronpk that way the actual content can live under the control of the author, but it will be syndicated to places like Medium
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KevinMarks right, which my sense from jamie was that they were relaxed about
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KevinMarks as they think that is the added value they provide
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aaronpk like how the XOXO organizers encouraged people to blog about the event, then post a copy on Medium so it could be added to the http://medium.com/xoxo publication
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@TopherPolack RT @kevinmarks: “Do we really want to count on large corporations to inform and enlighten us?” https://www.yahoo.com/tech/creatives-ask-what-kind-of-web-do-we-want-129160086429.html #xoxofest #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/644285783642238976)
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KartikPrabhu warning about futurism:http://nautil.us/issue/28/2050/why-futurism-has-a-cultural-blindspot
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tantek Forbes link js;dr
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tantek "The idea won't be to publish content on a js;dr website. That is dead to history. The individual website that works with or without javascript is what matters."
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tantek KevinMarks: ^^^
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KevinMarks nice
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tantek Oh I see you didn't tweet that - that was just a quote in here
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tantek was going to @-reply you if I could fit it ;)
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KevinMarks I can tweet it I think it fits
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tantek ooh I got an even funnier comparison if you want
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@kevinmarks “The idea won’t be to start a website. That will be dead. The individual website won’t matter.” -@ev http://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthof/2015/09/09/mediums-evan-williams-to-publishers-your-website-is-toast/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/644292388152737792)
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tantek "The Internet is going to be about getting it from centralized websites" @ev, 2015. "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers" Thomas Watson, 1943
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tantek (though apparently that quote is disputed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Watson#Famous_misquote )
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tantek also: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://t.co/JhLo9aUamB -> Page cannot be crawled or displayed due to robots.txt.
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kylewm to be fair, centralization is just a projection of current trends
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@t @kevinmarks The idea won’t be to publish on js;dr sites. That is dead to history. The #indieweb, HTML ... http://tantek.com/2015/259/t1/js-dr-sites-dead-to-history (twitter.com/_/status/644296186191585280)
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tantek there you go KevinMarks
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@kevinmarks RT @t: @kevinmarks The idea won’t be to publish on js;dr sites. That is dead to history. The #indieweb, HTML ... http://tantek.com/2015/259/t1/js-dr-sites-dead-to-history (twitter.com/_/status/644297407497306112)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's an interesting critique of futurism: my response: "The best way to predict the future is to invent it" - Alan Kay, 1989. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Future
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KevinMarks mentioned svgur.com on TWiG, wonder if I'll get much uptake
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tantek I mentioned it to the CSSWG in Seattle - the Microsoft folks seemed *very* interested FYI :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: my response is another misquote "640kB should be enough"
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KartikPrabhu and as kylewm said "centralization is just a projection of current trends" but that is how any future predictions work
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KevinMarks svg animation is weird
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KartikPrabhu here at the indieweb we are assuming that the future will be friendlier to ownyourdata. But maybe it won't be
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: iirc it has a very complicated syntax and so gives unexpected results